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Germany Struggles With Too Much Renewable Energy

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Gaurav Agnihotri via OilPrice.com,

Since the 2011 Fukushima nuclear disaster, Germany has been one of the few countries that have successfully moved away from nuclear energy. Germany has so far successfully shut down its nine units that had the capacity of generating enough power for at least 20 million homes in Europe. In fact, the contribution of nuclear power in Germany’s electricity generation has now fallen to just 16 percent and renewables are now the preferred source of electricity generation in the country.

Image Source: GreenTechMedia

However, Germany and its neighbors are now facing an unusual problem. With the dramatic increase in green energy usage, Germany is generating so much electricity from renewables that it is finding it hard to handle it. The excess electricity that is generated is being spilled over to its neighboring countries, thereby increasing the threat of a power blackout should there be a sudden supply disruption.

How much should Germany invest to solve this problem?

Although Germany has increased its renewable energy generation by almost five times in the last decade, it has failed to invest in building the necessary infrastructure to carry this energy. The excess electricity that is being generated by Germany is spilling over to Poland and Czech Republic, two countries that are investing close to $180 million to shore up their grids from Germany’s power spillage.

“A huge accumulation of overflow increases the threat of a blackout. The root of the situation is allowing a huge amount of electricity to be generated regardless of the capacity of the grid,” said Zbynek Boldis of Czech grid CEPS AS. It is quite obvious that Germany needs to upgrade its network to accommodate the excess power. In fact, grid companies in Germany are set to invest close to $24 billion for upgrading their network and modify its existing high voltage power lines.

Is there a way that this excess power is stored?

Yes, there is an energy storage technology that has the capability of storing this excess power. The power to gas technology basically converts the excess electricity into gaseous energy by producing a zero carbon hydrogen gas. This gas can then be converted into renewable methane and used as an energy source in future. German auto giant Audi was the first to use this technology by setting up the world’s first 6 MW- ‘power to gas’ plant in its home country.

In fact, Audi’s E-gas plant is now directly contributing to the stabilization of the country’s power grid. German grid operators are welcoming players that can contribute to stabilize its fluctuating energy production. According to Germany’s second biggest grid operator, Tennet TSO GmbH, an energy-balance player must be capable of drawing close to 6MW power from the grid within a period of five minutes while operating on its standard load profile. Audi’s e-gas plant has been successful in meeting this criterion and has been able to produce more e-gas at the same time by increasing its targets.

What is the price of this power?

The balancing power market has created a tremendous buzz in Germany as several new players are entering this market where utilities can end up getting paid 400 times more than the wholesale electricity rates. However, the increase in the number of new players has reduced overall prices.

“More supply means lower prices and that means lower costs for German end users,” said Armasari Soetarto who is a spokeswoman of the Bonn based authority. According to data from Next Kraftwerke, the price of power capacity that is available in the span of five minutes has reduced to around $1232 per MWh from $1,877 per MWh in January 2015.

However the biggest price drop is for electricity capacity with the capability of reducing output within 15 minutes. Those prices have dropped to $401 per MWh from the earlier $1,794 per MWh in January 2015. In 2014, companies operating in the balancing power market got close to $1.1 billion through direct payments. As Germany tries to double its power output from renewables by 2034, the balancing power market is set to grow in the next few decades.

Can companies from neighboring countries gain from cheap German electricity?

Traders based in Austria have, in fact, gained at lot from cheap German electricity. These traders sell German electricity at higher prices to other countries at capacities that far exceed the planned figures. However, the German-Austrian market is now coming under scrutiny from European regulators and Austrian traders are now blocked from buying German power.

Cheap German electricity would indeed find a lot of takers, especially the companies and grid operators in neighboring countries Poland and Czech Republic. The price of German electricity is around 18 percent less than what is available in Poland, so it makes financial sense to buy cheaper electricity from Germany. “My boss keeps asking why we aren’t buying power from Germany, but this is practically impossible,” said Henryk Kalis who is an energy buyer for ZGH Boleslaw that is controlled by Arcellor Mittal.

In order to change this market outlook, it is extremely important that Germany invests in its energy infrastructure and brings it in line with its renewable energy generation. It is ironic that a country which produced around 78 percent of its power consumption from renewables in July 2015 still struggles to ship its cheap power from the northern region to its southern region.

 

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Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:41 | 6439454 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

BULLSHIT...

There are no such things as nukes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIQVdBB1UW8

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:52 | 6439502 Stackers
Stackers's picture

"zero carbon hydrogen for later methane generation"

or you could just pump a bunch of water up a hill and then let it fall back down again turning a turbine.......

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:08 | 6439894 bpj
bpj's picture

That's how Phoenix area does it, buys cheap natural gas electricty at night and pumps water up stream back to the Roosevelt lake water shed lakes and during peak afternoon opens the flood gates to run turbines. Biggest battery in the world

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:24 | 6439974 duo
duo's picture

Google "ludington Michigan pumped storage plant".  Built in the 60s to store power for the auto industry at night so it could be used during the day.

What's old is new.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:40 | 6440065 Enceladus
Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:40 | 6440067 Enceladus
Tue, 08/18/2015 - 16:25 | 6440579 MalteseFalcon
MalteseFalcon's picture

"However, Germany and its neighbors are now facing an unusual problem. With the dramatic increase in green energy usage, Germany is generating so much electricity from renewables that it is finding it hard to handle it."

Throw me in the briar patch.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 19:16 | 6441231 MalteseFalcon
MalteseFalcon's picture

The USA plowed its free money into fracking.  Germany put in renewables.  Wonder who'll make out?

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 21:15 | 6441761 daveO
daveO's picture

The US, if DC doesn't export all that gas as LNG.

Look at that chart above. $.30/KwH?! The German taxpayer probably is on the hook for most renewable investment, too. Here, investors may get killed, but the gas will still be waiting in the ground.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 17:44 | 6440876 AGuy
AGuy's picture

"or you could just pump a bunch of water up a hill and then let it fall back down again turning a turbine.......'

Unfortunately not ready available as an option since there are water shortaged, you need a suitable location (ie near a river or other large body, that has a elevated land that can used to form a lake, and that is would destroy/kill people if it was to burst (ie people living below the storage lake). Also has to complete with developed land. much of the coast line near the oceans and rivers is fully developed. Land is also very expensive, except where there is no water. Probably the only two nations that could really build sufficient water storage system is Canada and Russia. The rest don't have the water/land available to take full advantage of water storage systems.

 

 

 

 

 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 19:46 | 6441377 logicalman
logicalman's picture

Take a look at this.

I think it started up in 1984.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:01 | 6439536 SethDealer
SethDealer's picture

this article is bullshit. my friend lives in germany and pay .18 per kwh... I live in texas and pay .095 per kwh. so yes germany has lot of renewables becasue the people pay twice as much for it

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:13 | 6439585 seek
seek's picture

You're probably paying as much as your friend (or even more) when you add in the direct and indirect subsidies to the US oil/gas/coal industries. The indirectst are huge: Fracking was made possible by ZIRP, for example, trading positive rates of return for retirees for zero interest loans; the US military budget is so big in part due to protectng/controlling middle east oil, etc, etc. The true cost of energy in the US is way higher than they let on. The direct aren't that small either, given tax credits are so high that for smaller companies the credits for well drilling are higher than the drilling costs (e.g. it's a positive return just due to credits alone and the wells are free)

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:26 | 6439646 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

Do we know how much of Germany's power generation in government subsidized? I'm assuming the government built these powerplants so do we know where that money came from? And if this is all wind and solar, and they are converting it to hydrogen, then we can assume they still need combustion plants to cogenerate for when the wind and sun are not producing. It sounds like a pretty expensive scheme to me and with governments involved I would imagine real costs are extremely hard to determine. But.....

If we are to assume rainbows, unicorns and skittles, why piss on it, right?

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:33 | 6439689 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Every fucking major plant in the US is gov't subsidizet, directly, or (with certainty) indirectly.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:06 | 6439879 FL_Conservative
FL_Conservative's picture

What bird is on today's menu?

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 15:10 | 6440225 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

And as with every fucking thing else in the world, we have no idea what its real costs are. There is no market anywhere that does not have direct government influence directly and indirectly, so for us to have a discussion about which is more efficient, or cheaper or anything is is pure mental masturbation to argue for our "favorite" delusion. We have no idea what the actual cost of anything is until we pay for it with our life.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:21 | 6439957 Augustus
Augustus's picture

seek,

You should keep on seeking.  Your post is nonsense.  There is no government credit for drilling dry holes and no profit from drilling them.  If that were true, the rig count would be a whole lot higher.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:13 | 6439587 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Germany is the transport hub of Europe, not just in form of their Autobahn network, which makes it possible for half the bloody continent to get their consumer goods and go on holiday at the other end, but also so for electrical power.

 

Electrical transmission lines are not cheap to build. Look up prices of, say a 1 GW underground cable. (ofc once established, transmission can be cheap).

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:29 | 6440007 Augustus
Augustus's picture

SethDealer,

You are exactly correct.  The German problem is with load balance that is destabilizing their power grid.  They cannot shut down the coal plants as they provide the stable output.  Even though the Germans shut down their nuclear plants, they rely on stable nuclear power from French nukes.

The problem with "excess power" is just a reflection of the unreliability of the subsidized and high cost solar that has been installed.  German power rates are about the highest in the EU because of the Greenie nonsense.  Chinese panel suppliers got rich from it.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:23 | 6439631 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

@ORI

Harmonic code.

Bruce Cathie.

Planetary alignment.

 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:43 | 6439463 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Then phase out the Lignite and Coal plants. Those are the absolutely dirtiest energy forms on this planet.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:47 | 6439465 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

+1 on the lignite at least.

Chart is misleading without cost / KWHr, which would show how expensive the "plentiful" renewables are.

cheap German electricity

$0.030 / KWHr is NOT CHEAP.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:33 | 6439490 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Depends. As long as there is a plentiful and dependable power supply in society, we are well of, whether we are at current price or twice or thrce that.

 

Compare with India, where UPS systems are a *necessity* for anyone doing the least bit of serious work on a PC or other elctronic equiplment. Or any other backwater in the world.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:50 | 6439492 Bunghole
Bunghole's picture

If renewables cost them $0.30/kWHr, I'll stick to WV anthracite at $0.11 for generation and transmission.

 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:53 | 6439509 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

Except Obama

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:49 | 6439769 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

If only it was anthracite....

 

And did you take into account the subsidies? No shortage of them...

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 15:00 | 6440172 zvzzt
zvzzt's picture

Just some numbers from Holland with a German powercompany (E.On). I've kept to the single-tariff (so no night/weekend discounts), for private use (companies get big discount).

1 KwH @ € 0,0513 (before taxes) and 1 KwH @ € 0,2112 after taxes..... Green/black/red/purple energy all the same costs. 

Natural Gas: 

€ 0,2865 (before taxes) and € 0,5869 (after taxes.

The way I see things, stuff is not expensive because of the 'greenish colour', but just bevouse of the rampant goverment stealing. To be fair to my local maffia king, at least he doesn't charge me 400% fee.  Of course part of the taxes go back to the green investments via subsidies, but if I compare these prices (~0.05) to other countries (Canada, Asia etc) it's certainly not that bad. After taxes, a different story. 

And to be complete, 1000 liters of water is about EUR 6.50 (incl taxes and including cocaine and medicines). 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 15:00 | 6440173 zvzzt
zvzzt's picture

Just some numbers from Holland with a German powercompany (E.On). I've kept to the single-tariff (so no night/weekend discounts), for private use (companies get big discount).

1 KwH @ € 0,0513 (before taxes) and 1 KwH @ € 0,2112 after taxes..... Green/black/red/purple energy all the same costs. 

Natural Gas: 

€ 0,2865 (before taxes) and € 0,5869 (after taxes.

The way I see things, stuff is not expensive because of the 'greenish colour', but just bevouse of the rampant goverment stealing. To be fair to my local maffia king, at least he doesn't charge me 400% fee.  Of course part of the taxes go back to the green investments via subsidies, but if I compare these prices (~0.05) to other countries (Canada, Asia etc) it's certainly not that bad. After taxes, a different story. 

And to be complete, 1000 liters of water is about EUR 6.50 (incl taxes and including cocaine and medicines). 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 18:03 | 6440953 AGuy
AGuy's picture

"If renewables cost them $0.30/kWHr, I'll stick to WV anthracite at $0.11 for generation and transmission."

 

unfortunately US regulations are are forcing all US coal plants to close by 2024 (unless GOP manages to control the WH, House and Senate). Difficult to believe GOP can sweep when so many have joined the FSA movement. FWIW: By the end of 2015, 95 US coal plants will be closed (loss of about 20 GW of baseload power). its very likely by 2020 Germany's .29 Khw will seem damn cheap in the US. The US power companies aren't re-investing, they are shutting down and retiring. 50% of US workers in the Power industry are going to retire in the next 5 to 8 years.

 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 19:47 | 6441386 logicalman
logicalman's picture

Cheap now.

Likely very expensive down the road.

 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 19:37 | 6441238 Beowulf55
Beowulf55's picture

"$0.030 / KWHr is NOT CHEAP."

Uhhhh dude, .03 cents a KWhr is cheap.  I was paying 0.07 cents/KWhr in the" 80's

Did you put the decimal in the wrong place?

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:47 | 6439473 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Oh, and Norway have cheap power because of their massive water powerplants. Sweden a bit less, but they have nuclear. Finland: Nuclear. France. LOTS OF NUCLEAR.

Germany should cancel they nuke phaseout and go all-out Throium. Yesterday. Fuck the nuke scares.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:30 | 6439674 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Correlation != Causation. As always, it doesn't factor in taxation, transmission costs, local abberations from the typical cases etc.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:42 | 6439724 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

I have been watching that low eroei for a decade now, and so far it hasn't stopped the corn ethanol 'folks' nor did it stop the frackers and the tar sand refiners, though the financial damage is just beginning to show up now...

As always, they will do the right thing ... after exhausting all other possibilities.

And we shall be making do with less energy, one way or the other.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:00 | 6439826 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

EROEI is masked by the market price and futures price for a given commodity. As others have remarked, fracking only grew into major production because of isnanely low interest rates, thus making it - economically - feasibly to go ahead with it, even though the ER is miserable, and that's not even mentioning the environmental impact... (just as with prec. metals - they are heavily underpriced right now, though that doesn't mean they are a thing you shouldn't buy (judging from the recent price curves)).

Fracking will peak out within 2 years, and as the general economic conditions falter, the sham will slowly be unmasked - as will it with other things.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 15:22 | 6440281 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

Yes, I'm making do with less energy every day and its slowly killing me.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:44 | 6439464 Chuck Knoblauch
Chuck Knoblauch's picture

China has developed a new battery that isn't allowed in the west.

I wonder if Germany is buying them?

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:48 | 6439481 pods
pods's picture

Were they stored in Tianjin?

 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:50 | 6439489 dirtscratcher
dirtscratcher's picture

Please tell us about this new battery. Enquiring minds want to know.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:17 | 6439584 Chuck Knoblauch
Chuck Knoblauch's picture

Lithium-ion innovations.

Banned on all commercial flights in/out of China.

I believe it's a liquid that could be explosive under certain scenarios.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:32 | 6439683 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Lithium-Ion saw a replacement in Li-Polymer a decade ago.

 

Not to say that CN companies haven't made advances, though its likely tied to their export restriction on rare earth metals a few years back.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:20 | 6439613 Yancey Ward
Yancey Ward's picture

The battery, subsidized by grants and loans from the DOE, is based on the startling properties of unobtainium and unicornium which allow the construction of a battery 1 cm cubed that can power a small house for 3 and 1/2 years.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:40 | 6439717 SethDealer
SethDealer's picture

lmao, this is a good one Yancey

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 15:24 | 6440292 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

I'm not sure but I think I have some unobtanium in the backyard. There may also be unicornium as well, as I have seen telltail signs (or it could just be dog shit).

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 19:20 | 6441251 Beowulf55
Beowulf55's picture

Sign me up, I'll take two......hows that unicornium react with the unobtainium?  Must be a hell of a power curve.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:45 | 6439468 Ignorance is bliss
Ignorance is bliss's picture

This article is a representation of how stupid the media thinks "We the People" are. I'm insulted by their obvious disdain for my intelligence.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:47 | 6439474 Lumberjack
Lumberjack's picture

Anyone traveling in Europe will note a lack of air conditioning. Electric rates are insane and are coming here to you courtesy of the Enron Yieldco's.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:10 | 6439570 Lumberjack
Lumberjack's picture
German electricity price is half taxes and fees

http://www.dw.com/en/german-electricity-price-is-half-taxes-and-fees/a-1...

 

Taxes and fees now amount to 52 percent of the monthly power bill for retail consumers, according to a new report released Wednesday (13.8.2014) in Berlin by the German Association of Energy and Water Industries (BDEW).

A typical household that uses 3,500 kilowatt hours of power per year pays about 85 euros ($113) a month for electricity. That's just one euro more than last year. About 45 euros, just over half the monthly total, is composed of taxes and special levies imposed by government. They include the standard value-added tax that applies to all goods and services, plus a special electricity tax, and a levy used to subsidize the buildout of renewable energy capacity under Germany's feed-in tariff system.

 

European residential electricity prices increasing faster than prices in United States

http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=18851

 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:16 | 6439595 Lumberjack
Lumberjack's picture

 

Germany's Energy Poverty: How Electricity Became a Luxury Good

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/high-costs-and-errors-of-ger...

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:27 | 6439651 Lumberjack
Lumberjack's picture

Good info here.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/08/03/obama-may-finally-succeed/

 

Sun Edison needs to be watched very carefully. Fuck you Jim Cramer. 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:37 | 6440054 Augustus
Augustus's picture

Lumberjack,

The German consumer pays a tax on electricity from all sources in order to give large subsidies to the Green Energy nutters.  Then has to maintain costly backup unused power generation capability to balance when the sun don't shine.  This article is reporting on the other side of the coin for when the sun or wind spikes in generation.  Solution is to invest more to accomidate a temporary excess, further raising rates.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 15:42 | 6440222 Lumberjack
Lumberjack's picture

Agustus, I have worked in the industry hands on, on both side of the issue. With the deployment of renewables (ouside of hydro), you have what is called Spinning Reserve. Renewables are intermttent including small clouds blocking sunlight to solar panels for short or long periods. I will never forget working all day long on wind turbines either waiting for the wind to stop so work could begin or after I was finished to have enough wind to test them again...This causes spikes in in the grid. what but you need spinning reserve to keep the grid stable. This entails other power stations to be at the ready burning fuels etc to offset the variability and causes problems at substations etc..

Here is something I focused on at an article I wrote a couple years ago elsewhere,

 

http://www.caiso.com/docs/2003/09/08/2003090815135425649.pdf

 

Think about it. The grid is 'somewhat' robust but between the excessive variabliity and preferential treatment and high costs of renewables. Wall street et.al. has given these intermittent resources preferential treatment regarding access to the grid. Cantor Fitzgerald and Enron (REC TRading etc.) started this and the SAME players are stiil there. It was "microsized" in a big way and now extract money by the microsecond (see Nanex) without risk, and by other 'sophisticated financial maneuvers". 

Stay tuned.

 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 19:35 | 6441334 Beowulf55
Beowulf55's picture

"A typical household that uses 3,500 kilowatt hours of power per year pays about 85 euros ($113) a month for electricity."

That's pretty frugal considering most average American house burn through 1,500 KWhr a month and pay about $120 a month.  Your numbers seem a bit skewed.

Either the Europeans burn a shit load of electricity at 3,500 KWhrs per month and paying cheap ass rates of only $113 a month or....... the Europeans are very frugal burning only 3,500 KWhrs per year but are paying hellish monthly electrical rates of $113 per month ............Which is it?


Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:48 | 6439475 KnuckleDragger-X
KnuckleDragger-X's picture

Magical fixes for everything. Renewable's cannot provide dependable baseload power which you need to power a modern economy. Just to make it interesting renewable's tend to be wild and unpredictable which can really screw up a power grid. And that nifty storage? It is very inefficient, both converting into and out of. Germany was an electricity exporter till they went green, now they're a heavy importer. With the government paying high subsidies for all this magical unicorn pee, they'll soon be returning to the simple lifestyle that the village idiots love so much.....

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:51 | 6439496 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

Is there a way that this excess power is stored?

Even if there IS an excess, it is created at the top of the price scale, and only exists because of regulatory mandate, and if the market spoke it would disappear immediately.  What is more likely to happen is that the "energy brokers" will find a way to raise everyone's elevtricity costs, and pocket the difference, just as they have in the US.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:53 | 6439506 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

If the market, as it is today, spoke, then there would be coal everey-fucking-where and a some nuclear, and bit of renewables.

 

Coal power is cheap because of the waste problems are externalized - i.e. you get to pay for it, only you don't know that you are paying.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:10 | 6439577 OldPhart
OldPhart's picture

Storing power.  That must be one hell of a field of D batteries.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:14 | 6439592 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Gravitic reservoirs, as they do in Norway, or hell, some places in WIsconsin or Canada.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 15:34 | 6440327 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

The solution is collectivism.

The New World Order of cogeneration.

The entire world gridded together so that there is never darkness, never windless, never a hope or prayer of independence from anything as our world will become dependent upon something that makes OPEC look like the Boy Scouts.

Next up: Soylent nutritional production. Cargill??? recent fish protein producer acquisition???

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:51 | 6439498 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Renewable's cannot provide dependable baseload power which you need to power a modern economy.

 

Which is why it is called peak-load, and not baseload.

 

Anyone who thinks that renewables can replace everything are ignorant, which of course are mostly the nuke-scared somewhat-greens.

 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:28 | 6439665 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

What I meant to say with this post is that, no WE cannt replace baseload, and NO, it is NOT MEANT TO DO SO.

 

By the way, Nuclear.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 15:02 | 6440185 KnuckleDragger-X
KnuckleDragger-X's picture

Molten salt reactors. Thorium is the best known but just about anything can be used with the right mix....

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:41 | 6440079 Augustus
Augustus's picture

Germans do not use renewables for peak load.  They have guaranteed take agreements with the unreliable and unpredictible renewables.  That is in addition to the very high prices that were agreed to with the installers.  That is why there is the overload problem.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:37 | 6440046 Marco
Marco's picture

It doesn't really matter if it is dependable if you're not using nuclear power plants. Fuel is >>50% of the cost for fossil fuel plants, as long as renewables are cheap enough (which wind on a good location is) the fuel savings are enough to make it economically viable.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:47 | 6439479 ShrNfr
ShrNfr's picture

Only problem with burning hydrogen. You get back less power than it took to generate it. The three laws of thermo uber alles.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:02 | 6439541 More Ammo
More Ammo's picture

At least it is a pemanent storage method and I bet it is better energy return than any battery tech.  Now we just burn off this excess electricity at night running street lights and shit since the plants have to run at near %100 percent all the time and "someone" gets to pay for it anyway.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:10 | 6439576 KnuckleDragger-X
KnuckleDragger-X's picture

Hydrogen is very dangerous. It is explosive at anywhere between 10% and 90% concentration in air and just to make it special, it is almost impossible to safely store long term due to its atomic structure allowing it to penetrate things like steel.....

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:28 | 6439640 silverer
silverer's picture

I still like hydrogen.  By-product of combustion is water.  Now, think of the zeppelin accident at Lakehurst NJ.  All that hydrogen gas in flames, yet a bunch of people right underneath still ran to safety.  If that much volume of gas that was hydrogen was instead propane in any industrial accident, all those people running away would have been cooked pretty thoroughly.  Because the absolute neatest thing about hydrogen is that being a non-carbon based fuel, it does not radiate any heat.  You can put your finger 1/8" next to a hydrogen flame, and you won't feel the heat.  Try that with acetylene, propane, natural gas, gasoline, kerosene, coal, wood, etc..  (Well, actually, DON'T try that...)

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:02 | 6439701 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

H power is a brilliant dream, but it has major hurdles to pass before it becomes practical. Storage, transmission (miniscule atomic/molecular size means it fizzes right through the welds on a traditional methan pipe, to state an examnple), fuel cells, how to transfer from storage to, say, vehicles, the danger of having a 5000 psi tank in a fast moving vehicle, and so on.

I surmise that many of these problems will become moot whence we can produce nanomaterials. I do hope for it to becaome a reality, soon.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 15:37 | 6440338 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

All we lack are the nano sized brains to come up with it.

We should have it any moment...

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:29 | 6439668 Montani Semper ...
Montani Semper Liberi's picture

"Oh, the humanity and all the passengers screaming around here."

 - Herbert Morrison

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:06 | 6439555 lordylord2
lordylord2's picture

.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:21 | 6439626 withglee
withglee's picture

You get back less power than it took to generate it.

Same is true of batteries. Same is true of pumping up and generating down. When the alternative is to simply feather the windmills or open the solar circuits, the three laws are immaterial.

There is more nonsense per word in this article than in a nursery rhyme.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:23 | 6439635 KCMLO
KCMLO's picture

True, but where does excess energy go if it isn't stored by some means?

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 15:44 | 6440375 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

Where does it go if you disconnect your alternator on your car's engine while driving it? If nothing else, look at diesel locomotives which generate electricity with their engines that drives electric motors connected to the drive wheels. They have giant radiators on their roof that "burn off" the excess energy as teh generators cannot respond to demand loads quickly if ramped down. There are ways. Why doesn't Germany put heating wires in their freeways to melt ice when they have excess energy? It is madness to think that surplus energy should constitute a cost rather than a benefit. Their problem is one of ideology where it is not about cheap and plentiful energy, but a minimalist green ideology that would never condone "wasteful" energy consumption, even if it saved them money. It sends the wrong message.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:48 | 6439485 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Meanwhile, in the USSA, the rules change every year (or more often, if the EPA is involved) and as a result, renewable energy growth has stuttered, and stalled.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:50 | 6439494 assistedliving
assistedliving's picture

gee, when i add 78% renewables + 40% coal + 10% other...it adds up to 100%?   Calling mucho BS on this

where are those energy calculator guys and their formulas when you need them

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:52 | 6439499 Ignorance is bliss
Ignorance is bliss's picture

I thought methane gas was bad for the environment. Doesn't it cause global warming? Isn't the permafrost layer melting producing methane gas that will eventually destroy our world. That methane gas?  I thought we were trying to go green...

"The power to gas technology basically converts the excess electricity into gaseous energy by producing a zero carbon hydrogen gas. This gas can then be converted into renewable methane and used as an energy source in future."

 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:57 | 6439512 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Methane/natural gas power if far less of a problem than coal, in part because that the energy efficient of the plants are higher than that of coal, the NG plants are quick to adapt to market demand, NG plants release SOLELY CO2, and not all the particulate and heavy metal crap that Coal plants do, etc.

 

It's still a depletable resource though, and it's still dirty if the source of it is fracked gas.

 

edit: Permafrost thaw and methane release is utterly unrelated to NG power generaltion.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:51 | 6440130 Augustus
Augustus's picture

Pretty stupid analysis.

I'm not aware of any way to distinguish between methane from a sandstone resevior or "dirty" methane from a fracked well.  The EPA has even issued a study verifying that fracking is not a pollution source. 

Just go to bed when the sun goes down and live the perfect life of the village idiot.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 15:46 | 6440385 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

Solves that pesky unemployment problem if no one can work after dark. We become "seasonal" workers, season being sunup till sundown.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:14 | 6439591 silverer
silverer's picture

I think you may be confusing free methane released into the atmosphere vs. methane used as fuel. 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:52 | 6439500 lester1
lester1's picture

I could see a President Trump or a President Sanders copying something like this on a much larger scale for the United States.

Heck, Arizona alone  could produce more solar power than Germany.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:53 | 6439504 schatzi
schatzi's picture

two things...

 

1. energy transport infrastructure is partially outdated in Germany. Especially the north-south transfer axis. Not enough investments made by the electr. companies during the last decades. More big industry is in the south, more renewables are generated in the north.

2. excess energy is no issue IF you can export it to neighbouring countries - as is happening. Pretty cool setup for Austria: they get electricty for free or even getting paid to take it off. This energy is then used to pump water up into dams that can then generate electricy at a later point - and sold for a pretty sum.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:02 | 6439540 Heywood Jahblohmee
Heywood Jahblohmee's picture

Evidently you haven't watched this in its entirety.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr-grdspEWQ

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:41 | 6439720 TuPhat
TuPhat's picture

Why did I watch that crap?

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:18 | 6439608 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

Bullshit.
There's too much energy because the government has been forcing people to overpay for it. Neighboring countries would pay for that overpriced crap if the EU laws didn't force them to get a growing percentage of power form these bloated "green" sources.
Plunder on a grand scale.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:38 | 6439706 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Please elaborate on these supposed forced purchases.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:55 | 6439507 Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

Like everything else the Anglo-American establishment is destined to destroy most important among them the creative idea that it can work at a considerable cost reduction to the way they curently do things -make no mistake it will be scrapped!

Tesla lives!...

It's getting rid of the Edison(s) that are the impediment to genius who's only goal is to make money no matter how impractical and unfair they do it!!!

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:15 | 6439593 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

What cost reduction?

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:32 | 6439954 Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

What cost reduction?

Tesla would have made it free or built technology around it that would have made it ubiquitous enough that the price would have been nothing like what we've paid since his patent(s) came into being!

Instead Mr. "DC current" put a meter on it to make money and enriched the banks he worked for along with himself!!!

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 15:53 | 6440408 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

The government should have nationalized it to make it more fair for everyone.

Its like when I go into any government run office or department. They are always the best organized and most efficient compared to any private organization or entity out there.

We could have been saved! or have we been saved already?

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:59 | 6439523 cwsuisse
cwsuisse's picture

This article is very theoretical and creates a false impression. Electrical energy from solar and wind comes in boosts at times it is frequently not needed and unless the energy is stored it is "lost in translation" . If the energy is generated at times it is not instantly needed it does not make much sense to distribute it throughout the EU. If solar and wind energy are produced in bursts it is not feasable to reduce the generation of electricity from conventional sources because of switch-on / switch-off problems. The article does not provide any information on total excess electrical energy storage capacity in Germany let alone the EU but I presume it is next to zero. There is also no information on storage and conversion cost which would determine the total cost of solar and wind energy for the customer. At the moment the real cost are uncertain because the industry is subsidized and real costs are not published. Fact of the matter is that renewable energy does not yet contribute to the safe supply of electricity because the energy comes at unwanted times and can not be stored. Further the economies are uncertain. I presume such stored electrical energy from renewables will be extremely expensive and therefore uncompetitive. 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:47 | 6439754 assistedliving
assistedliving's picture

i think this screed was written by TESLA to sell their BP's en masse.

Actually, i might even be a good idea.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:10 | 6439905 My Days Are Get...
My Days Are Getting Fewer's picture

My friends in Germany bitterly complain about their high electric bills.  Germany must maintain a redundant convential power generating system to provide power if the sun gets blotted out or the wind stops blowing.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:40 | 6440074 cwsuisse
cwsuisse's picture

Correct! A substantial cost component in Germany is for solar and wind. Unfortunately only consumers and small companies have to pay for solar and wind development. Larger companies are exempt. The attempt to develop the renewables on the shoulders of the citizens is silly because the subsidies are taking the pressure from the industry to come-up with affordable solutions. Wind energy is not really sustainable because too technically complex, too expensive and it destroys nature and views. Solar is good but not applicable in Germany because of the weather. 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:11 | 6439906 schatzi
schatzi's picture

Energy storage remains the biggest problem for renewables and its main bottleneck. There are new developments and have been patented - especially in regards to cheap large-scale heat conversion - storage systems, but none have been built yet. Batteries are by far the most expensive form and pretty much a dead end. Utilising dams by transporting water up, is a good solution for mountainous regions, but proper cost-conscious storage facilities on flat land do not exist yet.

As you say, because of the erratic nature of renewable energy supply, renewables can only ever become viable as a main source of energy when cheap storage solutions have been implemented.

 

As to subsidised energy - every energy form is subsidised. Every single one.

 

Nuclear is easily the most subsidised, with the fallout risk being carried by society. Very low chance of fallout but combined with an astronomical cost if such a disaster does occur. Imagine energy companies having to pay for a comprehensive fallout insurance that covers every and all damages. They'd be bankrupt tomorrow.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 15:59 | 6440443 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

So why not this?

We have millions of people around the world unemployed, many with few if any skills to even feed themselves. Why not make millions of generator cycles that we can pay people to pedal. It would be completely green and completely variable to demand. It could be easily distributed without expensive grids or storage by simply building generation centers where they are needed. It could harness people's energy that would otherwise go wasted while providing occupation, at least getting them out of the house.

I'm half serious on this. I don't know the math but I do know that individuals CAN generate electricity and there are millions setting on their asses doing NOTHING.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 17:15 | 6440763 MSimon
MSimon's picture

What counts is the subsidy per delivered KWh.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:55 | 6440155 ClassicalLib17
ClassicalLib17's picture

Not to mention the fact that these "renewable" forms of generation have a useful life of  20 years+.  Type "abandoned wind turbines in California" n your search engine.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:00 | 6439530 Son of Loki
Son of Loki's picture

Free Corzine!

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:03 | 6439547 IndianaJohn
IndianaJohn's picture

His son is long gone. Now is the time for the Sr.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:02 | 6439533 IndianaJohn
IndianaJohn's picture

All of the numbers shown are useless to me. What I really want to know is; how many $ per kilowatt?

I is currently paying $ .146 per kilowatt. Here @ 46391, USA.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:20 | 6439616 Kim Jong-Il
Kim Jong-Il's picture

$0.09 per kwh for first 1000 kwh

$0.106 per kwh for above 1000 kwh

 

my usage around 2000 kwh/month = $212  bill

 

FP&L in Naples FL

 

used to live in NJ 0.15 per kwh

have heard places like Honolulu and Germany are closer to 0.30/kwh

 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:29 | 6439662 Heywood Jahblohmee
Heywood Jahblohmee's picture

..

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:28 | 6439664 Heywood Jahblohmee
Heywood Jahblohmee's picture

I live in the Netherlands and my  electric bill is about 200 euros  a month.

Wife and I are home most of the time.   We are retired.

I have 2 computers and monitors on 24/7   big side by side door refrigeator freezer.   FREEZER in garden house.  3 fountains in garden on 12 hours a day,  Big screeen HDTV.   washer/dryer. and cappuciono machine.  Dishwasher. and LED lighting on most the night  .

Don' know how much that is per kwh becuse I don't care.  200 euros is cheap as far as I am concernend.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:39 | 6439709 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Replace your fountains with a wind turbine. :)

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:54 | 6439806 Berspankme
Berspankme's picture

Aren't you ashamed to be so rich?

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:07 | 6439883 My Days Are Get...
My Days Are Getting Fewer's picture

I have a house in Vermont, USA which has the second highest rates in the US after Hawaii.  The house is 3,000 sq ft ( 270 sq m).  No A/C and no water fountain but the rest is the same as you.  Our electric bill is $75 per month -  1/3rd of what you pay 200 Euros is about $220.00.  The house is super insulated for a building orginally built in 1865.  When I am there, I heat it with my 40 year old wood stove.  Otherwise, I have to run 5 water circulating pumps to distribute hot water heat throughout the house.

I find your electric bill to be extremely high.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:36 | 6440041 Heywood Jahblohmee
Heywood Jahblohmee's picture

Everything is relative.  My take home income is 4000 euros a month.  (retired)

So 200 euros a month is cheap for me.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 14:36 | 6440042 Heywood Jahblohmee
Heywood Jahblohmee's picture

Everything is relative.  My take home income is 4000 euros a month.  (retired)

So 200 euros a month is cheap for me.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:47 | 6439752 SethDealer
SethDealer's picture

germans pay .18 per kilowatt... switzerland .20.. Im in texas and pay .095

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 16:13 | 6440518 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

Yes, but in Texas with a month of 100 plus temperatures, my solar heating is working perfectly.

 

Wed, 08/19/2015 - 04:58 | 6442732 Curiously_Crazy
Curiously_Crazy's picture

Same goes for most parts of Western Australia (and North and South for that matter) - wouldn't bother in Victoria or Tassie though.

My Aunt has 7 solar panels on the garage roof and hasn't had an electricity bill in over 5 years. It's not easy, but it's doable.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:48 | 6439759 outlaw.guru
outlaw.guru's picture

All the numbers can be useless if you don't feel the environmental externalities of such production. I grew up near a lignite power plant. It is survivable, however it is far from pleasant. The smell of SO2, the respiratory problems of people around, the soot on the cars, houses, crops. And than the coal production destruction of huge areas around my town. And maybe the most important, ash disposal. Cancer is an extremely common problem for villagers who live near the ash depositories. They were born there a long time before depositories and someone just decided to place it next to them. The problem with ash is that after combustion, most of leftover ash is much more radioactive than dug up coal as radioactive heavy metals are concentrated in a smaller volume. These do not fly away as soot.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:03 | 6439542 Colonel Klink
Colonel Klink's picture

Not to worry, nucular (sic) winter will fix the problem.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:05 | 6439557 poland spring
poland spring's picture

There is a wing of ZH readers that find this article impossible to comprehend. In their mind, renewables are the anti-christ. I am preparing for my thumbs down.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:22 | 6439634 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

It's 20 years too late to switch the world to sustainable energy; peak oil will hit earlier than a (low scale) implementation of renewables. And this will crash the world economy, maybe even all supply lines, when cb's haven't done that already. Between 2017 and 2039; the decline in oil production will be between 3 & 5 % a year, way too much to adapt.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:37 | 6439704 outlaw.guru
outlaw.guru's picture

Although I agree with your cynical beliefs, I do see a glimmer of light. Half US military budget and the other half in resources and the whole world could be using renewables in a few years. And than back to cynicism :(.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:52 | 6439728 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Switching to renewables will abate a least some of the ills coming when peak oil rears its ugly head.

 

Countries with a major renewable investment PLUS proper transmission infrastructure will rejoice over  their past investments in the future.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:58 | 6439827 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

A major renewable investment needs higher wages and crushes your economy, your export costs will rise. This huge investment costs a lot of energy too, for installation, replacement and maintenance. The world is in a shrinking mode; peak growth, and too late to implement a sustainable way far under BAU. I'm afraid we fall back to the stone age if we continue like this.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:26 | 6439644 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

More like "false idol" than antichrist.

Long story short; once science enters the political realm it ceases to be science as it provides more power to the politicos as a "mandate for action."

I'm all for renewables (owned a hybrid for 12 years), but I've yet to ever see data that isn't suspect.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 15:53 | 6440407 goldsaver
goldsaver's picture

I am going to upvote you with a caveat. Full disclousre, my place runs on 100% solar/wind (well, almost, during the summer I run a 6Kw propane generator for the AC, I am saving in order to install additional systems so I can eliminate that). Even though I live with renewables I could not run a production facility or a factory on renewables. Solar/wind/hydro have their place (both geographically and societally) but are not yet to the point needed to completely compete against coal/gas/nuclear.

Another thing that is not mentioned is the replacement costs for the batteries and the pollution caused by them. You turn them in (I get $25 core fee) when you replace them and they get sent to Mexico for recycling. A single Trojan RE battery runs about $185 dollars. I currently run 4 of them and will be expanding to 8 next replacement cycle. With lots of TLC they can last 5 years or so. Or if you can afford them, forklift batteries can last 20 years but at a substantial initial investment.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 16:14 | 6440526 juangrande
juangrande's picture

I live off grid so have no choice when it comes to renewables. Forklift batteries? Are these the standard batteries sold as "solar system batteries"? I have these and have been told they'll go about 10 yrs if well maintained. I'm into my 5th year now. I eschewed the golf cart batteries because of the 5 yrs ( likely less) and lower capacity. Tesla and I believe others now have a Lithium Ion battery that is 1/12 the size of my lead acids and is supposed to last 20 yrs. I'm hoping these are common by the time I have to replace.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:06 | 6439561 SSRI Junkie
SSRI Junkie's picture

cost wise, i use solar only as a backup for local grid faiilures. the rural power cooperative i'm in makes renewables horribly cost ineffective (for now)

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:14 | 6439588 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

There is "too much" electric energy for the same reason there are too many bridges to nowhere elsewhere.
The fucking big government and corporate scammers.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:16 | 6439599 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

The cheapest way to store solar energy is solar thermal. This is done by heating molten salts with excess energy. Then, at night, the molten salts heat water into steam so that power is continually produced even many hours after sunset. Thermal storage is 5x cheaper than electrical storage.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:23 | 6439639 Heywood Jahblohmee
Heywood Jahblohmee's picture

The power plants built in Spain focus the sun thru mirrors to a single point which turns water to steam that turns generators.

They are working on storage.

here is a good documentary  to watch and see what they are working on world wide. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr-grdspEWQ

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 16:17 | 6440543 juangrande
juangrande's picture

They were supposed to build one or two here in the valley where I live. Many locals didn't want it ( nimby) but what killed the deal was the local utility said they had no interest in buying the power.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:20 | 6439607 Skip
Skip's picture

Merkel was a member of the Communist party. Germans have been under an Occupation Government since the war ended.

Nuclear power was pretty much a Jewish thing, Enrico Fermi may not have been Jewish, though in the photo with Oppenheimer and the rest he sure looked like one, but was married to a Jewess. Nuclear power is of the devil. I recall the ads, "SAFE, GREEN Nuclear Energy" Oh yeah.

Immigration Is About More Than Trump–It’s About The Survival Of The West

By Patrick J. Buchanan 08.17.2015, 6:49 pm

The issue is joined, the battle lines are drawn, and the GOP will debate and may decide which way America shall go. And the basic issues—how to secure our borders, whether to repatriate the millions here illegally, whether to declare a moratorium on immigration into the USA—are part of a greater question.

Will the West endure, or disappear by the century’s end as another lost civilization? Mass immigration, if it continues, will be more decisive in deciding the fate of the West than Islamist terrorism. For the world is invading the West.

A wild exaggeration? Consider.

Monday’s Washington Post had a front-page story on an “escalating rash of violent attacks against refugees,” in Germany, including arson attacks on refugee centers and physical assaults.

Burled in the story was an astonishing statistic. Germany, which took in 174,000 asylum seekers last year, is on schedule to take in 500,000 this year. Yet Germany is smaller than Montana.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:44 | 6439737 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Excellent attempt at making ZH look like a cuckoo's nest.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:20 | 6439619 Heywood Jahblohmee
Heywood Jahblohmee's picture

Solar power is one of those things that most Americans just don't understand and seemingly think they KNOW IT ALL.

I know people here in Northern Europe that power their whole home from solar and charge their electric cars from their home solar system.

Some make so much power they get money back from the power company for pushing excess into the grid.

The new solar cells have pretty good output even on cloudy days.

As for storage?   A bank of batteries (LiPo4) is the biggest expense but those are coming down in price also.

Once you have the system set up its pretty much maintenance free.

But I know most Americans always talk about ROI  (return on investment).

Thats why they stay archaic.

If people worrried about ROI, the Channel Tunnel would never have been built.

I spent 400 euros doing my whole home in the latest LED lighting.    Did I think about ROI??   Nope.   just know that my electric bill is much lower and no more changing bulbs.

 

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:35 | 6439694 SSRI Junkie
SSRI Junkie's picture

i wish this were the case here in the state i live in. there is no money back for power produced above what is used. the laws are so restrictive that battery systems are illegal. grid only. municipal cronyism is in full force.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:21 | 6439627 Yancey Ward
Yancey Ward's picture

I bet the Poles can't believe their luck that the Germans are subsidizing their electricity.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:28 | 6439663 EurGold
EurGold's picture

Buy Gold, Silver, Platinum and Palladium for Euro, Great British Pound, US Dollar and Bitcoin!

https://www.eurgold.eu

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:30 | 6439673 silverer
silverer's picture

This wouldn't be SPAM, now.  Would it?

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:45 | 6439744 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Eat shit and die.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:31 | 6439676 Steve in Greensboro
Steve in Greensboro's picture

We pay USD $0.10/KwH today where I live.  Americans on average spent USD 0.12/KwH in 2011 and the Germans paid USD 0.35/KwH in 2011.  (http://cleantechnica.com/2013/09/30/average-electricity-prices-around-world/)  No doubt the German rate needs to be adjusted for inflation.

How would you enviro-fascists like to have your electric bill be 3.5x what it is today?  How about you generate your power from unicorn farts and I stick with coal and nuclear for the base load and natural gas for the peaks?

As James Delingpole said (roughly) "alternative energy is an alternative to energy that actually works."

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:40 | 6439716 BigRedRider
BigRedRider's picture

I don't know where you live, but here in New Jersey I pay 19 cents per KWH.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:50 | 6439777 Berspankme
Berspankme's picture

I'm gonna guess he's in Greensboro

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 16:21 | 6440562 juangrande
juangrande's picture

Good thinking! But can we store the spent rods and coal ash in your backyard???

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 17:44 | 6440875 falconflight
falconflight's picture

Why would you even attempt to place coal and nuclear waste in the same universe?  Coal has been the major source of fuel for what over 150 years?  During that time, Europe and the US became the industrial powerhouses and innovators....and with that coal, life expectancy skyrocketed.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 18:27 | 6441034 juangrande
juangrande's picture

Life expectancy, no. Population increases, yes. Life expectancy ( statisticaly speaking) increased mostly due to much much lower infant mortality rates. T'was scientific understanding that did that.  Ancient stored solar energy had a lot to do with population explosion, however. 

Anecdotally speaking, coal miners had a very short life expectancy.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:31 | 6439678 I Write Code
I Write Code's picture

Build a terafactory that produces batteries, charge them up and ship them to Elon Musk, maybe he can power a Mars rocket with them.

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 13:35 | 6439691 black rifles ar...
black rifles are cool's picture

Reduce demand going forward.  Get rid of commuting where possible with telework / teleconferencing.  According to wikipedia the subway in my city uses 600 - 746 kilowatts (1000 hp) per car (usually 8 car trains running 3 minutes apart).  I don't know exactly how many trains are actually circulating concurrently per line but there are 7 lines.  Then factor in all the escalators / lighting / etc. Most of the people I ride to work with everyday aren't dressed for factory work.  They are likely going to sit in some air conditioned office building all day while their homes are air conditioned all day while they are at the office.  Disturbing this system would be a shock to the commercial real estate market but there is no reason not to start shifting away from centralized office work in the digital age.  It would cut down on commuting in motor vehicles too reducing cars idling in traffic.  I'm not a scientist but it seems logical to me as something we could start shifting to gradually.

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