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Pentagon’s New “Law of War” Manual “Reduces Us to the Level of Nazis”

George Washington's picture




 

The Pentagon’s new Law of War Manual – a 1,200-plus page document issued in June by the Defense Department’s Office of the General Counsel – is barbaric.

The Manual is so bad that one of the leading experts on the law of war (Dr. Francis Boyle) – who wrote the Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act of 1989, the American implementing legislation for the 1972 Biological Weapons Convention, served on the Board of Directors of Amnesty International, and teaches international law at the University of Illinois, Champaign – says :

This Law of War Manual reduces us to the level of Nazis. There’s no other word for it.

Boyle also says the Manual:

Reads like it was written by Hitler’s Ministry of War.

Why is the Manual so bad?

Manual Authorizes Slaughter of Innocent Civilians

Because – according to Boyle – the Manual allows massacres of civilian populations. The most comprehensive previous such document – the 1956 Pentagon field manual – assumed that any deliberate targeting of civilians was illegal and a war crime.

Reporters Can Be Assassinated

And the Manual treats allows reporters to be treated as “unprivileged combatants”, who can be assassinated.

Boyle points out that this retroactively legalizes assassination of reporters, such as Al Jazeera reporters during Iraq war. Boyle notes that even a SPY would be treated better, and given a trial.

(As we’ve previously noted, the U.S. government treats real reporters as terrorists. Because the core things which reporters do could be considered terrorism, in modern America, journalists are sometimes targeted under counter-terrorism laws.)

Manual Authorizes Barbarous War Crimes

Boyle also says the Manual authorizes the following barbarous war crimes:

(1) Warfare with nuclear weapons. Specifically, the manual states:

There is no general prohibition in treaty or customary international law on the use of nuclear weapons.

This flies in the face of the United Nations Charter, which – as noted by the World Court in its Advisory Opinion on the Legality of the Threat or Use of Nuclear Weapons – makes even threatening to use nuclear weapons a war crime.

This is also particularly worrisome because – as documented in
Towards a World War III Scenario, by Michel Chossudovsky –  the U.S. is so enamored with nuclear weapons that it has authorized low-level field commanders to use them in the heat of battle in their sole discretion … without any approval from civilian leaders.

(2) Depleted uranium. The use of depleted uranium can cause cancer and birth defects for decades (see this, this, this, this, this, this and this).

(3) Landmines.

(4) Cluster bombs.

(5) Napalm, which is banned under Protocol III of the 1980 UN Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons.

(6) Expanding hollow-point bullets, banned under the 1868 St. Petersburg declaration.

(7) Herbicides, like Agent Orange in Vietnam.

The Good News

The good news – according to Dr. Boyle – is that both Congress and the president have power to revoke the Manual.

So – if we stand up and raise holy hell – we might be able to walk back from the fascist path we’re heading down.  And we can prove that we’re not the rogue nation that the rest of the world thinks we are.

 

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Tue, 09/01/2015 - 08:15 | 6494474 Painful Facts
Painful Facts's picture

can we just stop killing innocents please? and all the tough guys, shut up, show me a just war that's not all about oil and opium and maybe I won't think you're a joke.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 13:42 | 6487577 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

GW - this is right up your alley- (not just reporters on the field of battle, but dissenting academics in ivory towers on the home front)

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/west-point-professor-calls-on-us-milita...

https://www.nslj.org/nslj-releases-volume-3-issue-2/

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 12:15 | 6487348 Polymarkos
Polymarkos's picture

THE FOLLOWING ARE NOT WAR CRIMES:

 

(1) Warfare with nuclear weapons. Specifically, the manual states:

There is no general prohibition in treaty or customary international law on the use of nuclear weapons.

This flies in the face of the United Nations Charter, which – as noted by the World Court in its Advisory Opinion on the Legality of the Threat or Use of Nuclear Weapons – makes even threatening to use nuclear weapons a war crime.

This is also particularly worrisome because – as documented in
Towards a World War III Scenario, by Michel Chossudovsky –  the U.S. is so enamored with nuclear weapons that it has authorized low-level field commanders to use them in the heat of battle in their sole discretion … without any approval from civilian leaders.

(2) Depleted uranium. The use of depleted uranium can cause cancer and birth defects for decades (see this, this, this, this, this, this and this).

(3) Landmines.

(4) Cluster bombs.

(5) Napalm, which is banned under Protocol III of the 1980 UN Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons.

(6) Expanding hollow-point bullets, banned under the 1868 St. Petersburg declaration.

(7) Herbicides, like Agent Orange in Vietnam.

 

THE IDIOT WHO WROTE THE ARTICLE IS JUST THAT, AN IDIOT.

 

At least 25 of you are TOTAL FUCKING MORONS like 'fuck you' boy.

 

It's a sure sign you don't have to do the fighting, otherwise you'd think differently about these things.

 

All this 'high mindedness' and 'morality' vanishes when it's YOUR ASS on the line. Suddenly mines and cluster munitions and napalm are GOOD THINGS you wish you had MORE OF.

 

Instead, all you armchair fuckwits wanna cry about the big bad icky naughty weapons...you are gutless wankers with no grasp on reality. Somalia is a good example of mines left all over...they dump their anti-tank mines in belts for defense, and then don't bother to clean them up. They kept NO RECORDS of where they emplaced them. Now that whole fucking 4th world shit heap of a country is covered in UXO mines because the Somalis are too lazy and stupid to pick up the mines they left in THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

 

These are the same people Comrade Obama and his communists are importing by the hundres of thousands to de-white-ify the USA, dumping them in Minnesota and other places.

 

 

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 12:23 | 6487371 Polymarkos
Polymarkos's picture

Let me add for you slow witted fucks out there:

 

There is NO good way to kill, there is no EASY WAY to die.

 

Never have I heard a corpse ask HOW it got so cold.

 

If you don't have to do the fighting, STFU.

Tue, 09/01/2015 - 08:13 | 6494463 Painful Facts
Painful Facts's picture

ease up chief. you support fascists. it's painful to realize, I know.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 07:00 | 6486743 SnatchnGrab
SnatchnGrab's picture

Folks need to read Dr. Boyle's bio. Dude is a whack job. He thinks everyone is a war criminal and everything is a crime. He's especially hard on THAT JOOZ so I can see why he is liked by the OP.

 

Serious hemorrhaging of credibility.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 10:32 | 6487040 SMC
SMC's picture

Consider reading the manual and form your own conclusions.

Attacking a specific person or group is just laughable pathetic propaganda.

 

Tue, 09/01/2015 - 08:14 | 6494467 Painful Facts
Painful Facts's picture

he's hard on joos . . . great way to convince me to your cause . . . not.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 06:52 | 6486732 silverer
silverer's picture

George - had you referenced the specific parts of the manual to the key points I would have printed up 100 copies and dropped them off in my neighborhood, along with the email and phone of the congressional rep.  Something this important would have to be 100% credible.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 06:56 | 6486739 SnatchnGrab
SnatchnGrab's picture

I just want to add, Dr Boyles claims are just that. Claims. There is nothing in there (at least chapter 4 that I've read) that authorizes what he says.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 06:48 | 6486730 SnatchnGrab
SnatchnGrab's picture

the U.S. is so enamored with nuclear weapons that it has authorized low-level field commanders to use them in the heat of battle in their sole discretion

 

BAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

This site hemmorhages credibility on a daily basis

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 05:21 | 6486606 NuYawkFrankie
NuYawkFrankie's picture

Make no mistake. the USSA is a Thug Regime - merely masquerading as the USA - that wantonly flouts not only International Law but even the most basic precepts of decency.

 

It's  leaders, policy-makers, media propagandists - both civilian & military - and behind-the-scenes puppeteers, promoters & enablers would be found guilty of the most  egregious of pre-meditated - and actual  - war crimes in any impartial court of law - and summarily dealt with if Nuremberg Trials rules applied.

"By their Fruits You Shall Know them" (Matthew  7:16)  And what we have here is rotten, maggot-infested  fruit - as this "Law Of War" document so amply demonstrates.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 02:41 | 6486566 Reporter
Reporter's picture

Jubilee Year: A Novel mentions the kinds of weapons to be used in event of war. Beyond barbaric. But can war ever be anything but barbaric? I think not.

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 23:40 | 6486382 MASTER OF UNIVERSE
MASTER OF UNIVERSE's picture

The United States of America has been a Fascist state for over 60 years and would not know how to behave on the world stage in any other capacity even if a majority of conscious Americans mustered up a revolt against the Pentagon right wing wackjobs n' sociopaths, and succeeded at controling the fascists in the MIC. In brief, the new law of war is indicative of the desperation of the status quo to hold on to power at any cost. Moreover, what is fortunate for most is that the Pentagon and MIC are facing major structural economic problems that they will be unable to overcome in the near future.

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 23:18 | 6486342 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

Hmm, the number of people who have come out as Nazis and Nazi supporters on this thread mirrors the number of people who write in support of Donald Chump on other threads.  Coincidence?

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 08:58 | 6486831 NoWayJose
NoWayJose's picture

You might be missing the actual point of many ZHers, which is they do not like how Nazified America has become!

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 02:05 | 6486539 Element
Element's picture

Before you get all disheartened about the election and which side to pick, elephant or donkey, remember this quote:

--

"...We are not here to heap mountains of debt on our children, and our grandchildren. That is what was done in the last eight years in the Bush administration.  This budget calls a halt to that, and says NO!  Says no more debt--we're going in the opposite direction!"
 

 
- Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of the House, April 29th 2009, as Obama's first budget passed.

 

Hilary called and said Nancy had simply "mis-spoken".

 

btw, I'm not an American, I just knew the instant she said that (I watched it, transcribed it verbatim), that this was one of the biggest lies of all time stated in the US Congress and would be a cracker quote in the years to come. She should have been bodily thrown out the Chamber, on her butt, that instant, but wasn't.

And every person in that chamber who cast a vote that day knew she was lying her arse off, to Congress, and to the American voter and taxpaying citizens.

So that's the super corrupt crap you get from that side, so don't expect miracles from the other, as saviors and miracles are definitely not on the cards any more.

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 22:13 | 6486197 steveo77
steveo77's picture

The Death of the Pacific is being labelled a "conspiracy theory"....some sarcasm here....

 

Radiation is a conspiracy theory.
Just because we've seen a couple UME's <Unusual Mortality Events> and multi-species die-offs along the Pacific since 2011 doesn't mean anything, its only been

  1. birds, 
  2. whales, 
  3. dolphins, .......................

http://nukeprofessional.blogspot.com/2015/08/radiation-damage-to-pacific...

 

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 05:47 | 6486684 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Haha, yes, aanother big event they will not report on.

 

"Mom- Loook! They have the glowing tuna back in stock."
"Billy, we are not going to eat with the lights off so you can play with your dinner."

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 21:43 | 6486135 Jorgen
Jorgen's picture

"(1) Warfare with nuclear weapons. Specifically, the manual states:

There is no general prohibition in treaty or customary international law on the use of nuclear weapons."

The US was ready to use nuclear weapons in their ‘war on terror’ in Afghanistan, according to a former German diplomat, whose interview was published in Der Spiegel this weekend.

Personally, I don't believe it. Taliban tactics has been guerilla warfare. Using nukes in such situation does not make sense, not to mention 'winning the hearts and minds' of the local population.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 00:57 | 6486485 Setarcos
Setarcos's picture

After demonstrating the nuclear weapons on Japan - to get a meagge to the new enemy, old ally the Soviet Union - Truman planned to nuke the Soviet Union (I think there were fifteen taget cities from memory) as pre-emptive strikes.

 

However an adequate delivery system had yet to be developed - the Soviet air force would have shot down bombers - but then the Soviets surprized Washington by testing their own nuclear weapon, so the plan was dropped and MAD began.

 

US aggression and duplicity go back a long way ... ask the Indians!!

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 21:48 | 6486147 PoasterToaster
PoasterToaster's picture

There's a lot of dipshits in positions of power these days.  There isn't anyone left to tell them no.

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 21:44 | 6486134 PoasterToaster
PoasterToaster's picture

When I was young my country didn't torture people, it didn't invade helpless regions full of goat herders, and it didn't murder US citizens with drone strikes.  The cops didn't routinely murder unarmed people, the local governments didn't rob the people of the town blind with tickets and taxes, and your private business was not considered fair game for legions of nosy bureaucrats at alphabet soup agencies.

Now that I am old and have woken up, I see it was all a lie.  It was always a lie and now it is becoming plain for all to see because the liars no longer wear the mask of sanity.  They are not afraid of us.  To them we are still cattle to be slaughtered, or at best slaves to be harnessed. 

The owners of this "country", formerly known as the United States of America laugh at us, jeer and mock, and chortle away at our helplessness at their little elitist gatherings.  They shame us by burdening us with their unjust laws, while they pervert our social order into a system of slave morality. They turn debts into perpetual bondage, and seek to remove our birthright citizenship in order to reduce our grandchildren and everyone after to penury before they are even born.

This has been a long time coming, this slow domination of the pop culture morphing into outright thought control.  For millions of people it is unthinkable to even question Master, and it hurts their head when people around them do.  As people throughout the ages have found, the most difficult part of breaking a slave system is the inertia of the thoughtless masses around you.  You either have to convince them, or end up fighting them when the time comes. 

The Slavemasters who own the former United States are betting everything that the sleepwalkers cannot be convinced, or will be too afraid of the truth and go into violent denial and remain a barrier to change.  I think they are wrong.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 09:56 | 6486946 Vuke
Vuke's picture

You nailed it Gramps.  The state has become a slithering python devouring all it can reach. Worse, it's run by a collective of psychopaths and sociopaths.

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 20:49 | 6485991 dreadnaught
dreadnaught's picture

US forces killed several EU reporters who were documenting the fact that after 3 tries to get into Falluja and couldnt-the marines firebombed the city-men women children along with the rebels

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 23:11 | 6486306 fleur de lis
fleur de lis's picture

Do you have any links to the story? 

The illegal use of nuclear weapons in Fallujah resulted in horrific birth defects. We are governed by monsters.

http://raniakhalek.com/2013/03/20/u-s-turns-a-blind-eye-to-iraqi-birth-d...

 

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 20:29 | 6485962 NoWayJose
NoWayJose's picture

The U.S. has killed over 58 million babies, far exceeding the number of people the Nazis killed. The US has far exceeded any dreams the Nazis had for spying on its own and on conquered people. The U.S. police guns down far more of its own countrymen than the Nazis ever did. The U.S. forces acceptance of its far left liberal agenda, and anyone speaking out is viciously attacked. The U.S. is destroying and purging and corrupting its own history, just like the Nazis. The U.S. is creating its own 'super race' that is held above all others - gay, black, illegal aliens! And finally, just like the Nazis, the U.S. has expanded its empire further across the globe than it can be defended or supported.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 05:50 | 6486687 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

One could posit the NAZIs were actually moar civilized than the current USSA.

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 20:36 | 6485975 Teh Finn
Teh Finn's picture

The U.S. police guns down far more of its own countrymen than the Nazis ever did.

652 killed by police in the US this year.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of your other points.

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 21:23 | 6486072 NoWayJose
NoWayJose's picture

Your point may be valid. I assumed a difference between the regular German police force and the Security Police but I guess the SS took over all of the police forces and created lots of different sub groups of police. My point is that there were many fewer actual shootings on the streets of Germany by the regular police - of ordinary non-Jewish German citizens.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 05:52 | 6486689 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

At one point, Goering controlled the LE bodies. Later, I think it was Himmler. By that time, the police forces, civil and secret, were hopelessly corrupt.

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 19:46 | 6485873 Chris88
Chris88's picture

Can you start posting articles about "freedom" without the name of a dead slave owner?  It just takes away from your message.

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 19:39 | 6485856 ableman28
ableman28's picture

Might doesn't make right.  But after awhile its hard to tell them apart.

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 22:00 | 6486103 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

I used to visit a website forum visited by hardcore backcountry outdoorsmen - hunters & fishermen. Like myself,many of those frequenting the site are ex-military. - - When the infamous camera footage was released of the US helicopter gunning down journalists & children a few years ago, I couldn't believe the non-sense justifications that most of that website's membership spouted. And, they called those who made the footage public 'traitors'. It was sickening and I knew it was one small measure of how brainwashed Americans are and how degraded is the country. Facism has a red, white, and blue face now. And 'freedom' has nothing to do with it.

After being a regular for many years, I never visited that website again.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 09:05 | 6486844 MASTER OF UNIVERSE
MASTER OF UNIVERSE's picture

Bambi killers, & Bullwinkle killers, are fairly narrow minded individuals when it comes to their games. A small minority that actually eat everything they kill are responsible hunters, but the majority do not care whatsoever for conservation, and are irresponsible IMHO. This is why most refer to them as rednecks.

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 23:13 | 6486334 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

And now you know how I feel about 2015 ZH as compared to 2012 ZH.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 06:30 | 6486716 bombdog
bombdog's picture

If you felt the same way you wouldn't have posted that message. Jus' sayin'

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 01:05 | 6486497 Sedaeng
Sedaeng's picture

definitely a different feel to ZH now...

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 20:32 | 6485971 honestann
honestann's picture

Not for me.

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 19:13 | 6485791 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Wonder if the NWO will have the same opinion about Jewish folk. You know fascists can start out relatively harmless and then make a wrong turn. Everyone should hate these bastards.

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 19:07 | 6485774 nc551
nc551's picture

War is a racket and barbarian no matter the rules.  War only comes about when a culture can't adapt to changing conditions or is shitty enough that attacking others for resources is the only way to sustain their status quo.  Any country that initiates a war is already as bad as the Nazis.  If someone is coming to kill you for your stuff... napalm them, gas them, nuke them, torture them to death, whatever.  Initiators of violence deserve no mercy.

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 21:40 | 6486128 GreatUncle
GreatUncle's picture

It comes about when those with greed decide they want what you have and are not going to pay for it.

It is all economic and the greed to want what rightfully belongs to others.

From that war has no rules, normally written by those who do not want to lose what they have already stolen.

But fearing losing what they have stolen draft in new law to allow all actions to maintain their now weakening position.

Now consider who you could apply those points too ... drum roll and I should not have to tell you.

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 19:26 | 6485825 monad
monad's picture

What war did you ever serve in?

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 19:53 | 6485892 nc551
nc551's picture

I will proudly never initiate violence against another human.  Nationalism is a joke.  Defending yourself from an agressor is the only high ground.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 00:45 | 6486447 Element
Element's picture

If you know I'm going to empty your pockets and take what you have, and beat the snot out of you, because I did it to you two months ago, and you can see I have no respect for you at all, you would be nuts to not initiate violence first when I wasn't looking, to deter a repeat, and get the required payback from my pockets, and respect that comes of knowing I can be beaten to a pulp by you, or worse.

The 'just so' theories of defense and aggression are all idealistic fables, that are seen to be fables only the moment you get mugged by three guys, who kick the shit out of you and detach some ribs from your spine, and stomp on your face, because they think they can not only do that, but can get away with doing it, unharmed.

Having them know for sure there will be extensive consequences, is much more effective, and they're much more likely to not go as far as violence, in the first place. And having some allies to call on to flank, distract, and act, is even better. It saps confidence, forces from aggression to defense and back-peddling.

Nationalism is just a fear response of those who fear a case of having the national ribs detached and not being able to do anything effective about it. Nationalism amps the threats and fear to make sure the 'will' is present, even in the weak and 'peaceful' within society, to ensure that something effective can be done about that, if it occurs.

Now it may be transparent to us, and it may be odious, but it does have a purpose, and it is not going away. People gather together in fear as nations for mutual support, and alliance support as well, hence national 'diplomacy'.

But Nationalists always want strong friends, but only if they can trust them to act, or else they must stand alone and be all the more aggressive in their threat posture, and weapon-making, and in motivating the weak and indecisive within their own State, via polarizing them with fear to galvanize their agreement and sentiment, about resorting to violence without hesitation if attacked.

Hence the extraordinary popularity level of chest-beating ultra-nationalist aggressive thugs.

The only way to deal with them is to stare them down and make them know there will be very effective consequences. If not the respect will not be there, or the diplomacy, and they will bully anyone they want.

Peace, over a border or over a street is the product of the fear of what will happen if a fight starts and can not be stopped by anyone. And civil attitudes within a 'civil society' street is the small-scale attempt to make that diplomatically less likely.

And when violence is less likely you usually get less fear and less nationalism.

But it is a complete mistake to think that you can maintain that civility and respect, without the ability to be extremely effective in a battle, or not have the friends who will back you up. The trick is to not threaten or actually beat up the other guy, as you will make them too afraid, reactive.

Otherwise they are going to hit you when you're not looking, and totally smash the shit out of you.

So a balance of fear is what keep the peace. And if it is not backed by a balance of weapons, then the period of peace will become unstable.

Once the Soviets collapsed, the US and West in general began to use weapons freely when there was no need to, and the result has been fear and extreme violent reactions ... just like as if a heavily armed gang had done that on a civil street.

(a) The heavily armed gang is innately destabilizing to a 'peace'.

(b) The unarmed but now very afraid 'civil' residents are also now innately destabilizing to the peace.

When they come together you get violence pretty often, without intervention, and withoout someone who can and will intervene. Most contry's diplomacy is in fact based on hoping someone can, and will.

So if you want peace, you have to make sure you can fight credibly and create ambiguity about capabilities, demonstrate fearlessness, and have friends who will fight.

So nationalism and potential for aggression and payback, and yes, mild militarism, has its own civil requirement to create 'peace', and has a valid place, which is why most country's Constitutions mandate the funding and training of a fighting force and diplomatic capacities.

To pretend a capable military has no place at all, or not even a prominent place in a state, so that it's people can act without fear, would simply guarantee their peace will not last.

It is sophomoric and useless to pretend it's otherwise.

Having the right mix and balance of force options is much more important if you want the military to not have to fight at all, and that paradoxically means having enough capacity to fight (but too much that it harm the reason for it existing, namely, people's lives not being impaired by militarism).

And if you suppose that the Western alliance folding up its tent and stepping away from all the weaker countries will lead to peace, it won't. But it may force them to get more organized and militarized and aligned in networks to defend themselves and improve diplomatic relations.

But keep in mind, much of the reason why the West's military is in such places of conflict is because they were usually invited in and given basing access (no, its never clean and pat, like that), decades ago by countries that were too weak to survive in their neighborhood, on their own.

Well a lot of those once weak countries are now much better armed and trained, have viable economies and are no longer foreign aid recipients. Unfortunately for the ME, they are hobbled by religion(s) with philosophies of of extreme factional violence and ultimate domination. So no much chance for peace without a complete change of the culture.

Hence the inability to wash our bloody hands and walk away from the escalating street brawl that we helped get started, but frankly, the nature of the region was never going to be peaceful, as the neighbors all hate each others guts. And that you can still work with, if everyone is afraid enough of war to try peace.

Except:

(1)  The State is innately demoted in favor of aggressive sectarian domination doctrine.

(2)  It is backed by fear of a Gawd, and urging to act on that doctrine, not just in aid of avoiding a good national beating

(3)  These produce non-state organizations with no intent of engaging in diplomacy to make peace.
 
We see it in Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and Yemen (and many others, Nigeria, etc.) where Gawd-obsessed 'rebels' or opposition fundamentalist groups have all repeatedly flat-out refuse all suggestions, initiatives and outside attempts to negotiate a peaceful end to the wars. The Gawd doctrine mentality produces the death-cult outcome in each case, and any failure to reject mediations and peace, is collectively viewed as the act of a heretic or apostate, not a true believer, like them. This fear of a doctrinaire Gawd of war and death, in such groups, is more keenly felt and a stronger fear motive, than their desire for civil peace from fear and loathing of war.

But let's give them more weapons and training, at our expense, to do our bidding, and hope for the best! ... yeeeah ... great idea.

Obviously humanity has a real problem now (Islam and Jews also, in particular), and naively pretending less nationalism, or less arms in the hands of the West, or pulling-out, will resolve it, is sophomoric at best, and certainly not any sort of solution that we're going to like the outcome of.

My guess is that 100 million dead (100,000,000), from this combination, is perhaps optimistic.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 01:49 | 6486532 nc551
nc551's picture

I generally agree with a lot of what you said.  I simplified a bit...

If someone has aggressed against you in the past, I don't consider an initiation of violence.  You may call it retalitory or pre-emptive, but once they cross that line, to me, it is logical and moral to assume they will do the same in the future and take self defense measures.

To me if someone says, do X or I will hurt/steal from you, that is an initation of violence.  If someone charges you, you don't have to wait for the actual hit to defend yourself.  And as far as I'm concerned any level of initiated violence, even just words specifying intent, fluff or not, justify a complete and total response.

I disagree with your general theme that our interference with other countries is at all defensible.  Sure it would be moral to defend others against assault, but we don't do that.  The USSA is the aggressor, and the only way they are able to pull that off is by aggressing against us in the form of taxation.  I seriously take to heart the non-initation of violence principle, no matter how much more 'awesome' things might be if we just make some exceptions ( for example forcing people at gunpoint to give money to .gov in the name of children).

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 03:55 | 6486600 Element
Element's picture

And I also don't disagree with your comments in principle NC551, only they don't match my experience of how things work in practice. Unfortunately I don't subscribe to expressed ideals any more, and haven't for a long time now, only because they stand in the way of understanding it's dynamics. The world will work after its own dynamics, humans will never change those dynamics, our attempts to do so revert. We in fact are not our ideals. Better to grapple with how we are than to aspire to something that remains inconsistent with what we really do.

If you're still an idealist that's hard to face and process so people usually don't. I find ideals are always the result of fear of how things really are (a form of denial) and that also is a bit hard to process, for many, if not most. What I do know is that if there is fear in you of how things are, and you dearly would like it to be different, you can not face the world without ideals without getting knotted and depressed, because the depression is a symptom of wanting things different, but not being able to get the ideal to work.

In other words, it's a result of you (or rather society) creating artificial 'problems' (in you) that are irrelevant to how existence actually is. Life is just a brief necessary-evil required to get to the much more significant period of death to come (apparently we're going to be doing quite a lot of not being in a terminal state any more, as now).

The way things really are does not have any of the problems we have in 'coping' with it being what it is. To live with it you also have to be what you are, and nothing else. And what we are is not what other people have told us we are. None of them have the ability to tell us.

So it is the misconceptions fed to us by culture that hides what we are from us, and tries to make us be something we are not, which is actually totally impossible. What we are, not only is possible, but it's occurring already, and we don't even know it. But the thing that we will never be is the ideal the culture distracts us with and cripples us with an artificial problem. There is no other way to end the artificial problem we create for ourselves, but to be exactly what we are, with not a shred of fear or wish to be anything else. Because what we are is not as shallow and flimsy as ideals, it is something spectacular, but we don't even know it. We have been lied to that we are something else, a mere 'human being'. But the verbal definition, no matter which one you read, is not what you are, the definitions and explanations of what a human being amounts to could not possibly be more incorrect.

And no, I'm not religious, nor a neo-mystic, I have nothing at all in common with people like that, just not interested in what they say, I say this from my own experience of what we are - except that it is totally inexpressible (which is a bit of a set back really).

The ideal is the attempt to solve a problem, that is not you, you are not your problem and you are not your ideal solution to that imaginary problem ... and  it is depressing, that, right? So we embark on trying to, "change the world", for the better, to make it easier for others, ... but you all have to adopt my ideal! ... so you proselytise for 'converts' to the ideal. Please, adopt my ideal ... and the other guy is saying, try my moral, it makes the world better! ... my belief system works, take it, it is my gift to humanity! ... my religion came from god!! ... which is better than your ideal! ... so what's wrong with you! ... are you a rotten infidel! ... what!? ... you want MY converts?!!! ... off with your head!

etc.

So if people do not 'convert' to the ideal then conflicts and frustration and depression are baked-in for an idealist, as the world doesn't actually change. It was an artificial fictitious conundrum, that we created, to try and avoid exactly what we are, and exactly what we are is exactly how the world in fact is.

And then there is nothing conflicted in us, ever. Because there is no fear in you of what comes next, EVER! Because you will always be what you are, no matter what occurs, so fear of the future is totally gone.

And that is quite impossible to comprehend for an idealist (I know, I was one once), as idealism is in fact a form of fear and denial of what we are. You can not ever see what you actually are, if you are trying to be what you are not. Religion is the greatest of mistakes for it tries to tell you that what you are is all wrong. So it is the greatest of artificial problems, and thus the greatest fear inducer and the greatest denial inducer.

It claims to make us better, divine, but there's a fair body of evidence that this is not the case, I think.

The artificial problem remains intractable, no matter the forms it takes. Seeing that ideals 'as-solution' to an artificial nothing, imparted by others, instantly ends idealism. Stumbling across what you really are is the hurdle. For me it ended completely, easily, instantly, it just stopped the moment that I was what I am for the first time, and what that is, is not what I had any clue I was - none at all!  And nor can it be verbally expressed to another.

What you actually are, NC551, does not translate, otherwise I would certainly tell you, so forgive my stupid words for bringing it up. What I can tell you for sure is that none of the definitions of what you are, are true, nor come close to the right general direction, they couldn't be more misguided, misleading or inadequate. But infuriatingly, you're an instant from being what you are.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 05:10 | 6486665 nc551
nc551's picture

You make a logical point, but we do diverge.  I completely agree my principals aren't widely practiced in reality.  Just because existing things work a certain way, to me, doesn't mean we have to accept that.  My life experiences have brought me to the point of embracing the principal of the matter, even if that means I suffer the consequences of our current reality.  I will admit I am fearful to find out the truth of the matter.  If I am days away from starving to death will I still stick to my principals?  I would like to think so, but I sure haven't been tested.  I am not religious either, but I do contain a deep faith that... for a lack of a better term.. all equations balance out...

I think a huge part of the human experience is the dichotomy of our logical consciousness and our natural existence.  The more logical we are the larger the dichotomy versus biological impulses.

I believe if I were to ditch my ideals I would become a monster ( as far as my current ideals perspective ).  If it is truly a natural selection free-for-all I am in a prime position to excel.  That is currently tempered by my belief in what is 'fair' and the whole do-unto-others paradigm.  Perhaps it is my fear of what will happen to me when I am no longer in my prime, but it nonetheless still makes sense to me even now.

If I do end up sticking to my beliefs no matter the consequences, does that not make me exactly what I thought I was?  Without some sort of faith, religious or not, I can see how perhaps our current human situation seems intractable.

Yes words are abstract, a simple attempt to convey complex ideas, that maybe often hit right, but likely as often miss the mark.  To me it boils down to my perceived effect on people.  I'm not going to participate in a system where my existence necessitates another's demise, that is my choice.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 07:59 | 6486722 Element
Element's picture

 

 

I believe if I were to ditch my ideals I would become a monster ( as far as my current ideals perspective ).  

You won't, it's a false fear also implanted by others, and they do it because the fear you might have no natural restraint. It doesn't happen, quite the reverse, you are less conflicted between beliefs and realities and very much more relaxed and at easy with everything

That is currently tempered by my belief in what is 'fair' and the whole do-unto-others paradigm.

But none of that changes, it is no longer an idea that needs work, you just operate that way.

If I do end up sticking to my beliefs no matter the consequences, does that not make me exactly what I thought I was?  

No, because 'your' beliefs are not yours at all, they were implanted, educated in, constructed via events also, if you like. The very words you use to think about 'your' beliefs are also implanted. They are not you for what you are is not verbal (thus not expressible), and without verbiage you can not construct either the verbal 'you', nor its verbal belief structure which you take form around.

Without some sort of faith, religious or not, I can see how perhaps our current human situation seems intractable.

Well that's what I'm saying above, this perception of an 'intractable' current 'situation', is in fact the artificial problem that you allow to be imposed on you. That perception of a problem requiring a resolution, via changing the ideas of the world, is also not you, you are not an idea.

I can not touch an idea - but I can touch you.

One is physical, and one is not, and I am saying the physical you, is not what you have been told it is. It has not even been partly defined, it can't be defined at all. I was not being indirect, I mean actually your body, 'human' physical flesh is not what we suppose. Our existing definitions are so limited, and what is allowed to be defined by culture is even more limited, but what I'm talking about is not definable at all, and is outside of the construct of ideas. But as soon as it is stated, the first thing the brain does is assume it is about ideas, and can be thought about. But it can't be. But we can get to it.

Yeah, it makes no sense, I'm sorry, because I've put in idea forms something that has no connection to thinking ideas. And that's where that instant away from you can't be, in a sea of ideas. But it has always operating in you, and you don't even know it is until one day you somehow stumble into it ... POW! It happens. And you're just stunned at how you could have gone through half your life and never known or suspected it was already there and could do this all along?

And why didn't anyone ever mention this? Even give you a hint? Well beside the little problem of not being amenable to ideas and words, it translates not at all, and not just poorly, literally not at all. So you only discover it directly, and without any warning.

It is you, your body does it. There is no other 'you'. The you that you were told you are, tuns out to not be you. It's just a bunch of ideas, but it is impossible for this to realization to dawn until it occurs. But under it all that body is you in a way an idea can not convey in a way no word I can type can grip on, so I can shove it your way to add clarity to what seems unintelligible.

Best I can say is the ideas you have are nothing, they are not a part of you - at all! The part that is you has no ideas - at all! Because ideas are not communication - at all! Either directly, or indirectly. No communication through Ideas.

ah! Now that really flies in the face of all you know! But that is what I am saying, the ideas are artificial, but you won't realize this, until you find/discover/stumble into, this indecipherable thing, this actual you, that I'm referring to.

Like I said, you can't process this, but you would be better aided if I could even express it adequately. That would help, but I can't even do that much. All I can do is hand wave and say there's something here that's actually you.

And you're going ... WTF?!!  ... oh well ... back to the ideas that are not you, NC551, I wish I could tell you what the hell I'm trying to say. I'd like to think I'm modestly articulate, from time to time, but in this area? ... not so much.

Maybe I impart a sense of being 100% serious about this though, because I am. I can 'use', for want of a better word, the thinking me, and also the Actual me. But there was a time when there was just the thinking me (just like you are now) then one day the actual me suddenly showed up without any warning at all. And that is how it happens, it suddenly switches on like a switch was thrown to start a diesel generator and the lights all come on at once! But you never knew what a diesel was, let alone seen light globes before, and what's illuminated. Some threshold was crossed, you went to a new functional stability, you don't know how, and you never suspected it existed, had not idea at all, then BAM! It's suddenly working, fully-formed, liek it was always there, and you think, "how the hell can a human being's body do this?" And, "Why doesn't any one ever talk about this? How come I don't have any idea about this existing?"

Look think back to your very first orgasm. OK? Were you not totally shocked that your body could do it, right? I mean you were totally surprised by the first one, right? Well this 'Actual' function of a human is much more intense, and of the same order of startle/shock/delight, times 10!

Because this goes on and on for minutes, and you're just gobsmacked that a human body can do it, and it's apparently so rare and foreign and also so inexpressible as to what it is, that you can't tell anyone what it is, even if you wanted to - and they'd never believe it anyway.

[And no, this is in no way related to an orgasm, totally unlike that, I only reference that to show that the human body can do amazing things that you would never have thought possible, and also may not have even heard about befor it happens.]

OK, that's roughtly the dilemma. NC551 has just had his/her first orgasm, and no one you know has ever mentioned it to you before, and you are stunned buy it, so you eventually ask people about it, and you find that no one knows about it ("You were doing what?!"). But you know it isin fact real, because you can repeat the experiment.

So how on earth would you tell them about what an orgasm is, NC551, if you still have no idea what it is, and no one else does either? At least you have a benefit of showing people, and fluids to be analyzed. You can actually prove something physically did happen to you.

Well, I can't show anything to anyone, there is nothing to show, and it operates as it sees fit. All I can say is the body has an actual natural emergent state of being that is infinitely more acute and present than anything you've ever experienced before, and it's a normal human capacity that apparently no one else seems to know about. I don't take any drugs of any kind, I don't drink, except tea, maybe coffee. I don't know why if happens. I don't know why a human would do it, because this isa  product of evolution. So why does it occur? And the best I can do is express it in words under the terms of my own invented term of, "Actual Mind", as those are the words that translate best, and it is a whole of body function that is natural and that can happen at any time, and not interrupt whatever you're doing. You can just be walking along, doing nothing in particular and it start to function. It's doing it as I type this.

So I am saying the body is not what we have been told that it is. If it can do this, then what else can it do, that we also don't know about? Well that's just it, we really don't know a thing about what a human is. We are not what we were defined to be.

But (I now know) we're stuck in the 'ideas' mind functionality, using ideals and beliefs, in fear, but that's just a construct, that's in fact not even actually us!

If another person came along and said, yeah, that happens to me too. Would that constitute proof? No. Clearly not. It can't be proved to anyone, who hasn't had it happen, it's only proved to the person it happened to, who is left in no physical doubt at all that it occurs, and in fact is the very thing that I really am.

If you say this to people, they immediately think I can't possibly mean it, literally, but I DO in fact mean it literally! It is a physical function of your body, and it is nothing else. But it is an expression of wet biology and physical function that you could never have imagined was possible, for a human body to do.

What it shows you about a human being is TOTALLY INEXPRESSIBLE. So not like I've even told what happens, I can't, I don't know what it is. Something started up, I was a like a blind man, never seen vivid colors, any thing, nor bright sunlight, and suddenly I discover I have fully functional eyes and optic nerve and brain processing, and I am seeing everything! And what I'm seeing I have no idea what it is, but it's absolutely beautiful and I can sense it all the way infinity.

It shows me I have no end, my sensing is seemingly infinite. I don't know how that can be, and I can't convey how I know that even, but it's the most compelling aspect of the entire thing. The overall most compelling impression is a total absence of finite in what the whole of body function is 'sensing'. And the impression that this is the actual me, that the verbal me is just the inadequate translation into word ideas of this.

I am not the idea at all, I am this, this is my natural state of function, and the idea mode of thinking is nothing at all.

One I can touch and feel, and one I can not, one is happening in real time, ACTUALLY, DIRECTLY, and the other is an abstraction recalled from memories, one is alive, the other is inert and a nothing.

So naturally it is unquestionably apparent, immediately, that this function is what I really am, and the thinking mind, I have always been using up until now is not me at all. I can not tell you how compelling that fact is.

This is as direct as I can put this into indirect words.

And I don't know how else I'm ever going to express this to another human being.

--

Well, NC551, I can say to you, if you lose the ideals, you will lose nothing and you certainly will not lose control, or turn into a bad person. Not going to happen.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 08:10 | 6486799 nc551
nc551's picture

I am interested in understanding the concepts you are putting forward.  I've been up all night and have to sleep... please check back tonight, I'll try to wrap my head around this a bit later.

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