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The Failed Moral Argument For A "Living Wage"

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Ryan McMaken via The Mises Institute,

With Labor Day upon us, newspapers across the US will be printing op-eds calling for a mandated “living wage” and higher wages in general. In many cases, advocates for a living wage argue for outright mandates on wages; that is, a minimum wage set as an arbitrary level determined by policymakers to be at a level that makes housing, food, and health care “affordable.”

Behind this effort is a philosophical claim that employers are morally obligated to pay “a living wage” to employees, so they can afford necessities (however ambiguously defined) on a single wage, working forty hours per week. This moral argument singles out employers as the morally responsible party in the living wage equation, even though the variables that determine a living wage go far beyond the wage earned.

For example, as I discussed here, the living wage is a function not simply of the wage, but of the cost of housing, food, health care, transportation, and a myriad of other factors. Where housing costs are low, for example, the living wage will be lower than it would be in a place where housing costs are high.

So, what matters is not the nominal wage paid by the employer, but the real wage as determined by the cost of everything that a wage is used to purchase.

Why Is Only the Employer Responsible?

So, if it’s the real wage that matters, why is there a fixation on the nominal wage itself? After all, wages, in real terms, could be increased greatly by forcing down food costs and rents. So, why is there not a constant drum beat for grocers to lower their prices to make necessities affordable? Why are activists not picketing outside grocery stores for their high prices? Why are they not outside KB Homes headquarters for KB’s apparently inhumane efforts at selling homes at the highest prices that the market will bear? Why are people not picketing used car dealers for not lowering their prices to make transportation affordable for working families? And why are gas stations strangely exempted from protests over the high cost of gasoline? Certainly, all of these merchants are just as instrumental in determining real wages as any employer. Grocers, landlords, home sellers, and the owner of the corner gas station can put a huge dent in the family budget when they allow their “greed” to impel them to charge the highest prices they can get away with in the market place.

And yes, it’s true that plenty of activists regularly denounce landlords as “slumlords” or greedy capitalists for charging the highest rents the market will bear. And there are still plenty of activists who argue for price controls on rents and food. But they’re in a small minority nowadays. The vast majority of voters and policymakers recognize that government-dictated prices on food and housing lead to shortages. Setting a price ceiling on rents or home prices simply means that fewer housing units will be built, while setting a price ceiling on eggs, or milk or bread will simply mean that fewer of those staples will be brought to market.

Such assertions are barely even debated anymore, as can be seen in the near-extinction of new rent-control efforts in the political sphere. You won’t see many op-eds this Labor Day arguing for price controls on fruit, gasoline, and apartments. You won’t see any articles denouncing homeowners for selling their homes at the highest price they can get, when they really should be slashing prices to make homeownership more affordable for first-time homebuyers.

So, for whatever reason, homeowners, grocers, and others are exempt from the wrath of the activists for not keeping real wages low. The employers, on the other hand — those who pay the nominal wage — remain well within the sights of the activists since, for some arbitrary reason, the full moral obligation of providing a living wage falls on the employer.

Were food prices to go up by 10 percent in the neighborhood of Employer X, who is responsible? “Why, the employer, of course,” the living-wage activists will contend. After all, in their minds, it is only the employer who is morally obligated to bring up real wages to match or exceed an increase in the cost of living.

So while price controls on food, housing, and gasoline are generally recognized as a dead end, price controls on wages remain popular. The problem, of course, as explained here, here, here, and here, is that by setting the wage above the value offered by a low-skill worker, employers will simply elect to not hire low-skill workers.

A Low Wage Is Unacceptable, but a Zero Wage Is Fine

And this leads to the fact that when faced with high wages, employers will seek to replace employers with non-human replacements — such as these automated cashiers at McDonalds — or other labor-saving devices.

But this phenomenon is simply ignored by the living-wage advocates. Thus, the argument that employers are morally obligated to not pay low wages becomes strangely silent in the face of workers earning no wage at all.

Indeed, we see few attempts at passing laws mandating that employers hire human beings instead of machines. While it’s no doubt true that some neo-Luddites would love to see this happen, virtually no one argues that employers not be allowed to employ labor-saving devices. Certainly, anyone making such an argument is likely to be laughed out of the room since most everyone immediately recognizes that it would be absurd to pass laws mandating that a road builder, for example, hire people with shovels instead of using bulldozers and paving machines.

Meanwhile, successes by living-wage advocates in other industries — where automation is not as immediately practical — have only been driving up prices for consumer goods. Yes, living wages in food, energy, and housing sectors will squeeze profits and bring higher wages for those who luckily keep their jobs, but the mandates will also tend to raise prices for consumers. This in turn means that real wages in the overall economy have actually gone down, thanks to a rising cost of living.

All in all, it’s quite a bizarre strategy the living-wage advocates have settled on. It consists of raising the prices of consumer goods via increasing labor costs. Real wages then go down, and, at the same time, many workers lose their jobs to automation as capital is made relatively less expensive by a rising cost of labor. While the goal of raising the standard of living for workers and their families is laudable, it’s apparent that living wage advocates haven’t exactly thought things through.

 

 

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Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:04 | 6512100 MonetaryDigitalis
MonetaryDigitalis's picture

Monetary policies fail.  Free market money brings prosperity.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:16 | 6512131 spooz
spooz's picture

Right.  "Free" markets, as in global wage arbitrage where laborers are all peasants who serve the elites who live large because they were born entitled.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:39 | 6512157 Crisismode
Crisismode's picture

 

 

Welfare for Corporations is fine.

Welfare for the masses is forbidden.

 

Subsidies for Corporate Agriculture is fine.

Subsidies for the Family Farm is forbidden.

 

Payouts to the Corporate CEOs is fine.

Help for the small business is forbidden.

 

Wealth transfers to the Banksters is fine.

Debt forgiveness to the average person is forbidden.

 

 

 

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:45 | 6512177 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

Yes, get the gubmint completely OUT of markets and allow people to prosper from free markets. In the mean time, get a job...

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 00:23 | 6512351 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Ole Ludwiggian theories also came from his paymaster's handlers, but everyone here knew that.

Ludwig Von Miser, libbbburtarian he-woe!

That said, what we are seeing, living/minimum wages etc. are all signs of the end of the archaich industrial age and the start of "humans are ineffective labourers" meme, robotics on a grand scale, trans-humanism et.al.

Dis-cussing one aspect of such a complex issue that has deep socio/polotico/finaicial roots is pretty pointless.

Many more levers...so much control, question is what happens when you start hitting the OFF button and the machines decides it does not WANT to go off.

https://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2012/05/29/the-great-machinery-death-cu...

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 00:54 | 6512404 Handful of Dust
Handful of Dust's picture
Three Rich Treasury Secretaries Laugh It Up Over Income Inequality

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/geithner-rubin-paulson-income-inequa...

 

 

We'll need much more rope looks like.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 02:44 | 6512511 coinhead
coinhead's picture

Okay teh problem with a "living standard" is this... some of us be up and coming G's in your hood and others be OG already 'ight?  So it's like if you allow teh .gov to determine who a G and who not?  Then dey get their cut bigger and first and dey be da bi66est G out there.  Feel muh?  Muh head is a coin (and even buh those standards we is not very bright) but hope this explains all of you alot better.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 06:29 | 6512659 negative rates
negative rates's picture

This is a case where the sum of the parts, adds up to MORE than the whole. Consequences bitches!!

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 07:06 | 6512707 AE911Truth
AE911Truth's picture

The bankers must repay us for the $Quadrillions they stole.

Folks, that's millions of dollars for billions of people.

http://divinecosmos.com/start-here/davids-blog/1023-financial-tyranny

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 07:23 | 6512729 AE911Truth
Sat, 09/05/2015 - 08:12 | 6512775 Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

90% of the QEs went to Wall Street in record bonuses during Barry Hussein's reign.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 09:45 | 6512954 chunga
chunga's picture

Using a moral compass to navigate through a world dominated by pure, solid fraud is mental.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 11:54 | 6513296 Eirik Magnus Larssen
Eirik Magnus Larssen's picture

Ironically, the rule of law tends to prevail over anarchy.

Corruption, however, is another matter.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 11:15 | 6513197 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

Some facts are more factual than others.

TARP was repayed with debt-money from other programs, and the amounts were in the trillions. The Fed bought up most of those bogus "mortgage backed securities" that will be, iwhen they are finally examined, worthless.

The bailouts never reached the '99%', except inasmuch as they kept up appearances for a while.

It would be more accurate to say that the money was destroyed.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 13:02 | 6513475 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

You really can't be that stupid. First, the article says it hasn't been rpayed. Second, how about the $4.5 trillion on the Fed's balance sheet? Was that repaid when they printed money to take the garbage off the books of Wall Street? Instead it stoked inflation in food and energy prices that the middle class ended up paying for to bail out the bankers

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 06:49 | 6512685 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Actually all this nonsense is a by product of the current fiscal & monetary Keynesian debt system. Inflation, generally rising prices (but really the devaluation of fiat) destroys the purchasing power of currency.

So with half hearted pronouncements of "End the Fed Now!!!" the accompanying refrain from leftard academics & accountants will always be "And Give Us A Living Wage!!!", which is a real head scratcher, demanding the government mandate a fix to what it has already screwed up. And they say it without the slightest wiff of their own hypocrisy.

There is no way in heaven or hell taxes or wages can be raised to the point of even coming close to offsetting the entitlements promised by government already, so we must have $30.00 cheeseburgers to satiate the masses!!!

Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon, in the sense that it cannot occur without a more rapid increase in the quantity of money than in output.

Ebadie ebadie...thats all folks!...stick a fork in it.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 07:20 | 6512723 gizmotron
gizmotron's picture

Hyper-monetized "Debt System" is a by-product of supply-side policies, in which wealth floes to the very top are not in healthy proportion with returns to the working middle.

What is "healthy proportion?" Just look at 1950-1980. A single-earner could support an average middle-class home, and maintain a savings account, and retire modestly well.

 

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 09:14 | 6512758 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Hyper-monetized "Debt System" is a by-product of supply-side policies, in which wealth floes to the very top are not in healthy proportion with returns to the working middle."

It is also very slick "monetary maneuver" for moar War & Welfare, where no major cities get destroyed on a grand scale by bombs & fire anymore but the people within them have every appearance of having lived through something very similar.

But...the way it is, by its very nature...you can't have one without the other.

//////////

Someone out there disagrees with the why the Federal Reserve was formed in the first place? You must think it's for bankers to earn a "risk free" rate of return...lol.

It is a funding mechanism FOR THE STATE which created it and now you must think (or hold out some "hope") that it can be reformed somehow, made to issue forth fiat manna straight from heaven in order to right all societal ills?

Come now, I'm all eyes and ears, tell me how I'm wrong unicorn rider ;-)

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 12:52 | 6513442 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Well Detroit sure looks like it lost a good old fashioned war.  

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 09:24 | 6512892 TheFutureReset
TheFutureReset's picture

"Just look at 1950-1980." 

In which country? China grew and prospered much more since 1980 than the US. Should one strive to emulate China or the US of 1980? 

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 12:26 | 6513355 gizmotron
gizmotron's picture

Define "prosperity." If a tiny oligarch class is fabulously enriched (think USA 1990-2015) at the expense of broad socioeconomic balance (think USA 1950-1980), then we, as a nation, have failed. "All boats" have not risen in proportion (like they did 1950-1980).

We've not been this socioeconomically imbalanced since 1928:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/12/05/u-s-income-inequality-on-rise-for-decades-is-now-highest-since-1928/ 

In 1975, the bottom 50% owned 7% of all U.S. wealth. Not much, but relatively healthy. Today, the bottom 50% owns less than 1% of all U.S. wealth:

www.daviddegraw.org/peak-inequality-the-01-and-the-impoverishment-of-society/

In 1975, the top 1% owned roughly 25% of all U.S. wealth and paid 33% of our Federal taxes. Very healthy. Today, the top 1% own roughly 45% of all U.S. wealth (including 5% offshore / dark accounts), yet pay just 38% of Fed taxes. Woefully imbalanced. And U.S. wealth contrinues to "trickle up" from the 99% to the 1% (and mostly the 0.1%) at the 10-year moving average rate of 0.5% per year, while the bottom 2/3 of the nation becomes increasingly and disporportionately impoverished.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2012/07/23/super-rich-hide-21-trillion-offshore-study-says/ 

 

 

 

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 11:02 | 6513162 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Nmewn - This commentary should have more upvotes. Anyways, the flavor of economic is less important than people knowing a private corporation the 'Fed' owns our government lock stock and barrel. 

Besides, Keyenes advocated surplus during boom times which never happens with governments. Then in bust times the money can be used along with targeted deficit spending on infrastructure. Instead there was no surplus and no infrastructure projects, it went overseas mostly to China. Trade imbalance also makes insiders very rich. The American people have had a raw deal for a long time now. 

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 13:38 | 6513561 omi
omi's picture

The bold statement you've shown is simply not true.

 

You can see that from USSR->Russia collapse. Inflation comes from groups of individuals planning function for future prices. Political instability very strongly influences this.

Russia's money supply was something around 3% of USSR money supply -> strong hyperinflation while at the same time you couldn't get rubles anywhere!

During the recent devaluation of RUB, money supply went down by a trillion from something like 16T to around 15T.

"Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon...." Is so bullshit, they even gave it a Nobel price in economics just to be sure. 

Sun, 09/06/2015 - 09:20 | 6514935 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The bolded statement is in fact very true...

"Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon, in the sense that it cannot occur without a more rapid increase in the quantity of money than in output."

...he didn't say that the money had to be in "public circulation" because it doesn't for the monetary phenomenon of inflation to be observed, prices still went up without any correlation or need for the size of the base by any measurable increase of output.

It was dead, unneeded, excess fiat.

Just because they burned a trillion excess rubles behind closed doors is almost irrelevant, outside of the fact that it showed a grotesque ballooning of the monetary base...not in public circulation...which was and is the point entirely.

Now, your homework assignment for the day is to find out what happened to that one trillion rubles that was not in circulation among the Russian general public ;-)

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 10:49 | 6513120 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Handful of Dust - Its a Roast. They aren't laughing at the populations misery. it takes a lot for a sociopath with over inflated ego's to admit in public what they did was wrong. 

Forget the rope. I want better model than the Central Bank model that exacerbates natural boom and busts for profit and skims my time. Congress could end the model anytime they want but are bought off because this.private corporation controls the currency. When that happens it is inevitable eventutally they own your country and slowly loot it with consent from government. 

Other governnents are nearing the time when they just go full retard with nukes to not be controlled. Like all empires the moment it.conquers the world and pushes a boot on the peoples necks to retain control, the faster the game of king of  the hill will be played. Welcome to evolution. 

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 00:54 | 6512406 38BWD22
38BWD22's picture

 

 

I was recently in Santa Fe, New Mexico on vacation.  While walking to dinner one night, I passed a clubhouse-looking place with the number "15" prominently displayed.  Upon further inspection I realized it was a union hall, and the 15 referred to a minimum wage of $15.00 per hour.

Hmm, I don't know about you all, but were I to set-up a business in New Mexico (one of our poorest states), I would be reluctant to hire ANYONE for $15 / hour especially if I did not know them...

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 01:04 | 6512420 Hugh_Jorgan
Hugh_Jorgan's picture

The people beating the drums on this front are mostly useful idiots carrying water for demagogue politicians. Many are the low wage holders themselves. The real ploy here is a shrill cry for a raise to the entitlement class by disingenuous politicians who are simply banking on gathering a few votes from the ignorant and greedy in the entitlement class by sacrificing everyone's future prosperity. The sad part is that so many in the general population are unable and/or unwilling to recognize that the idea is grossly flawed and totally unsustainable when analyzed at the most basic levels.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 02:28 | 6512498 zhandax
zhandax's picture

Why is no one calling out the pig wallowing in the middle of this shit; The Federal Reserve?

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 04:34 | 6512581 Bush Baby
Bush Baby's picture

The argument that if the minimum was $15, workers would subsequently be replaced via automation is missing the point in that it only speeds up the process.

Workers making $8 an hour are being replaced as well, so to keep jobs humans have to accept $6, then $5, and so on.

We are in for a revolution in our age old concept of working for a living.

Unless you simply create bogus jobs, which the goverment is already doing, there simply aren't enough jobs to go around.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 06:54 | 6512691 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

define "living" from my observation it is the ability to get wifi anywhere. virtual jobs for a virtual life..fat and happy, da gov'ment gives me my smart phone sucka cause day owe me.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 12:56 | 6513460 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Jobs are raycisst

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 10:32 | 6512806 carlnpa
carlnpa's picture

Which means quite simply the tax burden for keeping people with no job alive, must, shift back to business.

Prior to 1913 there was no income tax, the government raised all its revenue from business in one from or another.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 09:38 | 6512933 TheFutureReset
TheFutureReset's picture

Robots and transhumanism fits into this argument by lowering the cost of a living. If robots did everything the cost of living could be achieved with a $1 / hr job or a meager wage of an artist or nanny or something. 

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 10:35 | 6513075 Jack's Raging B...
Jack's Raging Bile Duct's picture

I don't think you understand money. You are arguing that technology is competing/displacing labor such that labor's market price is being diminished. Until robots begin buying things other than stocks and taking delivery, this premise is false. If technology were merely a competitive force with labor, then prices would decline in real terms. Not merely would inputs decrease, but the supply of money (wages) to purchase those robotically produced goods would be diminshed. It doesn't matter if your wageless robot can produce 30,000 iPhones a year if none of the antiquated humans cannot afford them.

Simply put, for every unit of wage "lost" to automation, so too must the sale price decrease. Paying less wages is excellent, but on a systemetic basis, a lack of customers due to limited employment availability means that you either pile up inventory or lower your prices. We have been witnessing inventories expand, but prices have not been decline in real or nominal terms. Automation increases, yet so do prices. When inflation adjusting for commodities, we can understand that all of this is a monetary phenomena. We should be living in a golden age where one person should concievably be able to comfortably support many people (See: Family), but that trend has been reversing for many decades.

End the Fed, bitchez.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 10:58 | 6513152 juangrande
juangrande's picture

You're right about the unsustainable aspect. But the "unsustainable" meme needs to be applied to much more fundamental concepts around human existence. Things like countries, religions, wealth thru exploitation, etc. Hell, at this point, there's an argument to be made about the human race's sustainability.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:42 | 6512169 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Correct. Global labor is being pounded into dust by corporate power, using the new global labor force as the hammer. The very idea that lower and lower wages is the natural order of the world. Who sets these rules of capitalism in which work is devalued and finance is supported by Government money?

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:09 | 6512218 MSimon
MSimon's picture

Who sets the rules? Well big government and its advocates.

 

Any goverment strong enough to give you everthing you want is strong enough to take it all away.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 00:36 | 6512376 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

"Who sets the rules? Well big government and its advocates."

That's like saying that the cops write the laws.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 00:47 | 6512392 MEFOBILLS
MEFOBILLS's picture

"Who sets the rules? Well big government and its advocates."

That's like saying that the cops write the laws.

 

----------

Or the rules are made by alpha males driving around in white Toyota Pickups, with a large machine gun mounted on the back?

When Canada had a sovereign money system from 1938 to 1974, their government was actually SMALLER than today, and the "cop" presence in society was tiny. 

------------

 

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 00:58 | 6512411 38BWD22
38BWD22's picture

 

 

Cops write the laws in lots of places.  I guess you have not experienced that.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 08:15 | 6512776 Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

But a living wage is, "Humanitarian" ain't it? Think of what the neighbors will say. Everyone from mexico to Saudi Arabia will criticize us as being anti-humanitarian.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 04:12 | 6512567 WOAR
WOAR's picture

To be fair, cops only enforce laws they want to enforce, so in effect they DO write the laws. Have you ever actually been arrested for jay-walking? 

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 10:39 | 6513088 Jack's Raging B...
Jack's Raging Bile Duct's picture

You would be surprised. They do in Austin, TX.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 14:36 | 6513693 TimmyB
TimmyB's picture

The people who run this country are the ones who pay off politicians by funding their election campaigns in exchange for the ability to set the rules.

This is why we have a wage system where tens of millions of Americans are paid poverty wages by their employers and the government provides those workers with tens of billions of tax payer dollars for food stamps, subsidized healthcare, rent assistance, and tax credits.

The Minses Institute can take money from the very same people who set the rules and then tell us every day how a living wage sucks. But you know what sucks worse? The system we have now.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 06:36 | 6512670 negative rates
negative rates's picture

There's always a greater power somewhere. Slightly better stated, a gvt big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. T.J.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:24 | 6512253 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

The elites need government, and its legal chicanery call The Corporation, in order to remain elite.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 00:51 | 6512385 Victor von Doom
Victor von Doom's picture

"Right.  "Free" markets, as in global wage arbitrage where laborers are all peasants who serve the elites who live large because they were born entitled."

That's absolutely right. Otherwise you're advocating communism - not exactly known for being a road to success, unless you're a politbureau member of course.

Free markets aren't enough though. Sound money - eg PMs as currency are also required to eliminate built in inflation. On top of that you need a system whereby the price setters find it in their interests to favour the local population. 

Anything less than the above and you're fucked long term regardless, unless you can wrangle becoming a price setter yourself.

"My greatest flaw. I surround myself with idiots."

- Victor von Doom

 

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 09:09 | 6512874 TheFutureReset
TheFutureReset's picture

That is why we need a good guillotine'ing every now and then. And why we need to end the elite's protection racket call govt. 

Tue, 09/08/2015 - 15:49 | 6523643 cescac4
cescac4's picture

Yeap peasants because CEO pay has incresed 90 times the amount that regular worker pay since 1978. Mises posting nonsense like usual. Blah no child labor laws, blah no minimum wage, blah no regulations. I could keep going but all of it is factually nosense.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 05:18 | 6512622 OldPhart
OldPhart's picture

If you haven't already hung your local politicians from some lamp post, you are too stupid to reason with.

There is no arguing with you.

You deserve everything they give you.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 11:26 | 6513228 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

.. and you have? And didn't die in a hail of bullets?

Mon, 09/07/2015 - 04:51 | 6517717 OldPhart
OldPhart's picture

2008.  Went to a town hall for Jerry Lewis (R)  CA Rep with ten feet of rope around my waist.

Why shouldn't we hang you?  People are you with me?  Big Cheers, no one got up off their ass.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:06 | 6512102 stant
stant's picture

The end of socialism is Gona suck , but it's Gota go

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:16 | 6512128 Tsar Pointless
Tsar Pointless's picture

You people still don't get it. You think any government program exists to help the poor or working class, when in reality, they exist to make sure corporations don't lose out on any potential customers.

We've had fascism since the 1870s. We'll have serfdom again soon. I suppose that will even be too leftist for some.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:21 | 6512142 falconflight
falconflight's picture

Fascism is Socialism, with a few particularities that aren't present in CCCP type Socialism.  But it is Socialism; government decides, you submit or else.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:42 | 6512166 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

Ding ding ding we have a winner. It depends what you think a nation is for. If it is to raise up the profits of corporations then no prob, that's what we have today. In the spectrum between Capital and Labor we have the needle pegged to the Capital side. In fact we have rigged the game that way, and the entire idea that somehow Labor should even get a seat at the table is demonized (unions bad!). A better model is Germany, where Labor is required to have board-level participation. And oh, look, in the end the guys on the shop floor who actually do the work do actually have something to contribute to the conversation. They know better than anybody how long it will take *in the real world* to launch that new product or retool that machine to make the new widget the marketing department wants. And oh, yes, they do know how much wages should be paid so they don't just end up hollowing out the company by paying cheap new idiots to come in and replace all the old guys who know everything or drive away the good new guys who won't work for the crap wage.

But I guess corps (and thus all of society) are just about financial engineering games for the shareholders. That works great until the masses show up at the gated community with torches and pitchforks.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:45 | 6512175 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Excellent and reasoned post. Every system of capitalism does not need to beat labor into submission as if they have no place in the system! Every corporation bitches they can't get cheap enough labor that works hard enough and smart enough. When labor has no stake, then they act accordingly.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:10 | 6512222 Pickleton
Pickleton's picture

"When labor has no stake, then they act accordingly."

 

Conversely, when labor has a stake, they act accordingly.  Remember what labor did to Detroit?

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:23 | 6512252 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

Confusing of terms. Labor in Detroit had no choice, they could ask for enough to feed their families or starve. Capital in Detroit had the choice to put in low-wage idiots or move the whole factory to a lower-wage country. And if the nation was constructed for the people who live there, not just the corporations, then perhaps they would think twice about the "level" playing field for imports. Don't get me started on "Free" trade, because it usually just means free labor arbitrage and people get screwed. We don't just import low-cost stuff, we turn the country into low-cost workers. Under TPP the Dems want to borrow money to pay workers who might be displaced, so let's get this straight: we want to borrow money to pay people so we can import a lower standard of living? Standard of living is not just about low-cost stuff, it's also about high incomes. We get half of the bargain and we should insist on the whole thing. Look at France: higher productivity per capita than the US, much shorter working hours, better benefits, health care, education, life expectancy, and vacations, higher median net worth, and a lower debt-to GDP.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 00:05 | 6512329 Curiously_Crazy
Curiously_Crazy's picture

+1 but it must be said that most of the western world has shorter working hours, better benefits, much better health care, education, life expectancy, and vacations than the US :)

I'm gonna get hated on for saying this but it's a fact, most of the western world laughs at the whole "U.S.A, U.S.A, U.S.A" thing because we realise the only thing you are #1 at is sticking your heads up your arses (or in the sand as the case may be).

Sure - the rest of us have big fucken problems too - the difference is that we don't hold ourselves up to be some bastion of freedom and beacon of democracy while being nothing of the sort. The brainwashing that has *always* been part of the US culture in order to make you think you're #1 is astonishing.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 00:50 | 6512396 Victor von Doom
Victor von Doom's picture

France is an appalling example of the way to go - they're gong bankrupt with their policies. Socialism does not work no matter how attractive it might appear.

"My greatest flaw. I surround myself with idiots."

- Victor von Doom

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 02:44 | 6512516 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

Lol going bankrupt slower than the US my friend, if it wasn't for the "exorbitant priviledge" US would be way past broke already

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 02:53 | 6512522 Victor von Doom
Victor von Doom's picture

Yes, because of similar appalling policies in the US - ie spending more than they earn. So I take it you are in agreement with me, in a roundabout way?

"My greatest flaw. I surround myself with idiots."

- Victor von Doom

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 16:53 | 6513927 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

"I don't need to run faster than the bear, I just need to run faster than you"

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:43 | 6512296 slightlyskeptical
slightlyskeptical's picture

"Free trade" killed Detroit and also most of US manufacturing.

A living wage is really a call to wake the fuck up.  Lots of theories as to why we are on this planet..but one thing that  is certian is that we are suppose to advance. We can't advance if we continue to have these gaping economic and social inequalities and continue to abuse people in order to profit for ourselves.

I think the simplest solution is to make companies pay for any welfare their employees recieve. Or they can pay them a living wage instead.

A required living wage would require a reset in price levels. I think for every dollar more required to be paid as wages, cost of living will go up only about 10 cents. At the same time kill debt based money, the fractional reserve money system, and jubilee the debt.

Then we can start over with a system worthy of the 21st century.

 

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 06:27 | 6512658 Bangin7GramRocks
Bangin7GramRocks's picture

Yeah, it was labor who designed and marketed the Pinto, Aztek and Volt. Always blame it on the guys working the line. Never the slow moving assholes in the big glass building. So typical.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 11:29 | 6513240 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

Hey, 7gram, if you have an Edsel that still runs, you've got a collector's item. You get to hang out and be cool with the other Edsel owners, and go to conferences with fake Elvises doing the entertainment.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:58 | 6512321 cornflakesdisease
cornflakesdisease's picture

As I've always said, "It's been all down hill siince Andrew Jackson left office."

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 03:24 | 6512541 Trucker Glock
Trucker Glock's picture

It's been all down hill since the Constitution was ratified.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 04:47 | 6512589 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Well, they are telling you TG, it was RAT-ified...

And DC is an open sewer...

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 06:43 | 6512681 negative rates
negative rates's picture

It's nice to be 24 and comfortable with life.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 15:12 | 6513750 TimmyB
TimmyB's picture

Most recent example Romney/Obamacare.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:51 | 6512170 FireBrander
FireBrander's picture

Anyone that thinks "Socialism" is what has failed us is a COMPLETE MORON....

For Fucks Sake, even King Dumbass himself, George Bush knows/knew what has failed us!

"We had to suspend the FREE MARKET in order to save it".

NOTE DUMBFUCKS....HE DIDN'T SAY..."We had to suspend Socialism in order to save it".

Not that Socialism would fare any better, but if you can't even accept/see what the fuck has failed us, then there is no hope!

CRONY CAPITALISM HAS FAILED US! SEE IT, ACCEPT IT!

 

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:14 | 6512228 Pickleton
Pickleton's picture

Oh, so you're taking the side of the guy YOU call king dumbass.  LOL!  You're ...wait for it... a king dumbass if you think we've had anything resembling a free market for the last century.  Crony capitalism is not a free market. 

 

Your attempt is worth a pat on the head though.  Good boy /pat

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:25 | 6512256 FireBrander
FireBrander's picture

What "we've had" is closer to a "free market" than "socialism".

The only TRUE and PURE Socialism in the USA is the VA Medical System..and Republicans are swearing thier political lives to fully fund, improve and protect it...WTF?

 

Free market > Crony Capitalism > Socialism > Despotism > Revolution > Free Market...we are at the shift between Crony Capitalism (which has failed) and Socialism which is at bat.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:25 | 6512255 Jersey_Mountaineer
Jersey_Mountaineer's picture

Bush obviously had no idea what constitutes a "free" market.  Has there been any other president who's had the government involved in the market as much as he did?  Obama maybe, but then again, he's only continued Bush's policies.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:27 | 6512260 FireBrander
FireBrander's picture

Ok, so, fill in the blank:

"We had to suspend the _____ in order to save it"

It sure as fuck wasn't Socialism, what was it?

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:34 | 6512278 Jersey_Mountaineer
Jersey_Mountaineer's picture

Well if Bush said it, it must be true, right?

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 02:07 | 6512480 Dr. Destructo
Dr. Destructo's picture

Welcome to Ferengi club.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 03:28 | 6512543 Trucker Glock
Trucker Glock's picture

The Bill of Rights.   Did I win?

Fuck Bush and anything he had or has to say.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 06:47 | 6512684 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Globe

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 09:24 | 6512891 James-Morrison
James-Morrison's picture

We had to suspend our liberties in order to protect liberties.

USA, USA, USA, TSA, TSA...

Can you really begin to fathom the type of groping we will be forced to endure in order to get our basket of free government money?

We have already passed the point of no return.

Let's just make everyone equal and all become billionaires.

Where's my Krugman trillion-dollar coin? It's only fair.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:52 | 6512312 falconflight
falconflight's picture

Each successive Potus begat (depending on who controlled the House/Senate another layer of State directed and/or state controlled facets of the economy.  GWB signed No Child Left Behind legislation basically federalizing k thru 12 schools, McCain-Fengold destroyed some elements of freedom of speech, like not being able to campaign via media during the last period before an election,  Medicare Part D greatly increased gov't involvement with another facet of health care.  Then Obama, just picked up where GW left off and ran like the wind.  No major sector of the economy is operating without major input from the US Gov't.  I dont have the strenght to name even half of Obama's wildly successful progression to a Unitary Gov't (One Leader/source of power.  It is way past the tipping point.  THere will be no turning back via the ballot box.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 05:05 | 6512599 bigkahuna
bigkahuna's picture

Nothing which is unsustainable will be sustained. Without balance there is no good future. The actual free market system brings the closest approximation of balance and sustainability. Crony capitalism, along with the oligarchies of socialism, fascism, and communism are not sustainable and will always come apart. 

People will always be in love with their ideas of utopias that do not and will never exist. And they will be drug around like hairless primates for the love of their ideas by their politicians. Unfortunately, all of the utopias involve greater government involvement which in turn requires the hairless primates (aka dupes) to muster together in order to write checks on their fellow citizens' bank accounts, allowing their beloved government to not only steal their money - but steal everyone elses too. This behavior is unsustainable.

I would like to see them raise the mandated wage. It will only bring more pressure to a system thats about to blow already. 

You are right - no change from the ballot box. Change will come after the wheels fly off and the SHTF.

Hopefully after we get done traveling the road paved by good intentions we can get it right but before then we will not.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:27 | 6512261 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Anybody who thinks the Free Market existed, especially because GW said so, is even more of a fucking village idiot than GW

Ooops. I just insulted Village idiots.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:33 | 6512275 FireBrander
FireBrander's picture

Read buttfluck...BUSH SAID "free market" had failed...he was almost right...I CORRECTED HIM...CRONY CAPITALISM IS WHAT FAILED, was BAILED OUT, and is FAILING AGAIN!

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 08:00 | 6512759 Spiritof42
Spiritof42's picture

Ooops. I just insulted Village idiots.

Not really. By your own choice of words, you proved yourself an idiot. Free markets have existed since the first two humans traded value for value. The "free" in "free market" means absence of coercion when actors exchange of their own free will. It is spontaneous in nature. It is omnipresent throughout human society. It has no form. No number. It cannot be outlawed. It's like gravity. It exists whether you know it or not. And it's what holds human society together.

All law and coercion do is distort price discovery, which in turn produce a cumulative series of miscalculations. The free market can never fail. Only humans can do that.

To give a parallel example. If a person was to eat Twinkies and smoke Camels for a long time, eventually they are going to get sick. It's not the body that failed. The body is doing its job of warning its owner to give up Twinkies and Camels.

And right now, the free market is telling us that government authorities are cancerous to our social and economic well-being.


Sat, 09/05/2015 - 13:28 | 6513531 Arnold
Arnold's picture

Takes more than that to insult us..........

 

 

---3 town Village Idiot.

 

Expansion into your neighborhood soon!!!!!!!

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:44 | 6512297 falconflight
falconflight's picture

You can call it KronyDasKapitalism or Fascism, but Sir it has little to do with Free Enterprise.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 15:06 | 6513736 TimmyB
TimmyB's picture

It also has little to do with Socialism. Some people label everything that doesn't meet their definition of capitalism as socialism. On the other hand, some label everything that doesn't meet their definition of socialism as capitalism. Both are wrong.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 13:19 | 6513515 Tallest Skil
Tallest Skil's picture

So you're mentally ill, then. Well, whatever floats your boat. Enjoy the next few months.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 00:54 | 6512407 Victor von Doom
Victor von Doom's picture

No, the end of Socialism will be awesome. Half of government budget (our money extorted from us at gunpoint) is wasted on this bloated pig of a policy.

Ditch "social justice" and it's a sink or swim world again. That in turn churns out tough, successful survivors and cleans out all the moochers and dead wood.

You ready to compete? 

I am.

"My greatest flaw. I surround myself with idiots."

Victor von Doom

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 06:26 | 6512657 Bollixed
Bollixed's picture

"My greatest flaw. I surround myself with idiots."

You know, if you stopped putting that "birds of a feather" tag line after every post it would be easier to take you seriously...

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:07 | 6512107 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

"Living wage" is a fake leftist term meaning nothing but feeling good. They have corrupted it just like terms such as "diversity" which means conformity. They talk about "social justice" which means allowing injustices as revenge. "Economic justice" mean redistributing from people who earned it to favored people who want it. And on it goes.

Never debate on their terms. 

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:20 | 6512138 Tsar Pointless
Tsar Pointless's picture

Indeed. All of those children of the elite who have millions to play with from conception and never have to work for a minute of their lives. Yes, they've "earned" it.

Putz.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:29 | 6512156 Monetas
Monetas's picture

All the generational privilege .... now belongs to the government class !

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:55 | 6512197 FireBrander
FireBrander's picture

Walmart increases wage expenditure a billion a year...now job cuts to pay for it...hog fucken shit again.

Alice Walton has a personal net worth of $34 BILLION...she could write a personal check, every year for the next 34 years and pick up the employee pay raise cost all by herself.

How many 100's of billions in Medicaid costs have Walmart "employees" costed US taxpayers?

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:28 | 6512263 techpreist
techpreist's picture

And after 34 years where will year 35 money come from?

Also, $1 billion divided between 1 million employees (Wal-Mart has 1.4 million) is $1,000, 50 cents per hour on a 40 hour work week, or $1 per hour on 20 hours part time. To achieve a 'living wage' of $20 per hour you will need a good bit more than a billion a year.

More important for me though, is that I have a fledgling business I work on during evenings and weekends, and I have hired a few people along the way for contract work. The question is how this hatred toward semi-abstract billionaires is going to affect me personally as I try to create my own job and a few more.

If I want to farm out some menial work to a high school kid trying to get started for $10 per hour, would I still want to do it if I have to employ him 40 hours, and pay $25 and benefits? No. He's gonna have to take out loans, go to school, and then bust ass for free on open source projects before I would even consider it. Every member here who has tried to actually cut it on his own knows what I am talking about. I am also glad to be helping a guy making $10 on data entry become a real developer and get a better salary, but part of the deal is that each $2-5/hour raise is predicated on his learning something new so I can convince my clients to pay for his services. Ultimately the CUSTOMER dictates all rates in a company.

Finally, open challenge for all the closet socialists. There's enough of you here: each guy put in $500, times 20 dudes and you've got $10k in seed capital. Buy some equipment (maybe a nice 3D printer), support one guy in the group to write a useful app, whatever. Then get out there, hustle, share the profits between you. Voila, 20 person company with no bankster/billionaire/whatever involvement. When some headwinds come, document what they are and post it. It won't be semi-abstract billionaires.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 01:13 | 6512429 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

This article has brought out the angry socialist losers en masse. They are always and solely focused on other people's stuff.

Go out and do the things you claim others should do yourselves. invent and make meds for free. Make hamburgers for mass consumption while paying the guy who says "You want fries with that." $15/hr. Yesterday he was worth $8/hr but today all socialists know he is actually worth at least 15. Not 12.50 and not $16.35. Have a company that makes products at no profit but give everyone 10% raises, free daycare, gym memberships and no deductible health plans.

The economics are terrible or nonexistent. The reasoning is backwards. The history is none of these ideas work and most of all it requires the near complete suspension of property rights and civil liberties. It is the stupidity of saying that near dictators need to be created to set us free.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 07:12 | 6512711 Arnold
Arnold's picture

The guy wasn't worth $8.00 an hour part time in the first place.

No Public Relations component in the fries question.

With burgers, you've got to sell the sizzle, and that includes your sorry picture button pushing attitude.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 12:19 | 6513337 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

First, the job, the task was worth $8/hr to,that guy because he agreed to do it. It's a contract.
The problem you socialist putsz types have is you cannot make the hamburger combo worth more than the market will bear. The market sets the price of the happy meal. If McDonalds could charge $15.00 for the Happy Meal they would already be doing that.

So you redistributionists and economic morons raise the cost of the inputs without being able to raise the price of the end product. That is one of many reasons your ideas fail.

For a fleeting second do you ask yourself how people in countries where they earn a dollar a day are not all dead? How do they eat? Where do they sleep? The reason is because economies always and everywhere rebalance. Everything else they buy is priced proportionately

You economic morons also ignore the price demand curve. Would you not agree that as the price of something goes up the demand for it decreases? How many people buy a Happy Meal at $5, $8 and $25.00? No one is sure but you know the numbers drop dramatically. Why do you suppose labor is exempt from this? How many people and how quickly will businesses hire competent labor at $5/hr, $8/hr and $100/hr? Is there a price they will hire raw, incompetent and untrained labor at? Yes, there is and then they will spend money to train them up to competence. The company has invested money and has increased the value of that person's labor. What is there to ungrateful about?

Economic idiots. Selfish little children.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 13:34 | 6513550 Arnold
Arnold's picture

Sorry, not your lousy picture button pushing attitude, FG.

The guy behind the counter.

Point taken, must have more precision in my written language to avoid contusion.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 12:13 | 6513333 techpreist
techpreist's picture

It's funny, I saw a group of socialists try to do what you said, and they were out of business in 1 month.

Something I wanted to re-iterate is that the "rich people are preying on us" crowd is about 25% right and 75% wrong. If you go out and really try to make it on your own, you are going to run into very wrong-headed policies very quickly.

Some of them are very obviously protectionist, and yes, protectionist laws exist so that the already-wealthy in that particular industry can stay that way. A big box store using eminent domain to steal land is another variant of this.

Other laws were put there by well-meaning people without an ounce of sense, and that set of laws tend to make your life miserable while making success harder for the people the law is supposed to protect. My dad, a construction supervisor, told me of how fraudsters would figure out what it would cost the company to fight a Worker's Comp medical claim, and then sue for a bit less than that after a few weeks of work. IOW, it made more sense to pay the fraudster than fight it in court. Meanwhile the money has to come out of everyone else's pocket (owners, employees, customers).

Between my experience, parents' experience, and mentors' experience, I've come to the conclusion that it's way too easy to blame only one side or the other. If you achieve real success IMO it's good to pay it forward. If you want to, you need to be teachable and willing to do what it takes. If you don't really want to be financially successful (there are other things in life after all!), then don't bitch when it doesn't come.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 09:53 | 6512980 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Screw that.

The whiners don't want to give up spending to save and then turn around and risk those savings creating a business. They want to turn in their 40 and complain how it's not enough to live the casual lifestyle they see in movies.

Nights and weekends? That's for idiots. Watching the after school part time help take home more than you do for a 60 hr. week? Never happen.

Small business owners don't worry about a 'living wage' because they're happy with any wages at all. With hard work and some luck they hope to grow those wages from future profits.

I have more respect for immigrant kids dumpster diving to cash in bottles that the 'living wages' crowd toss away while protesting how bad they have it.

Socialism is a goldmine for those kids.

 

Sun, 09/06/2015 - 00:35 | 6514614 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

I was trying to plan an open invitation dinner with my boss and we were tyring to think of nice restaurant venues that would be appealing. We both remarked how many had done out of business from years. past. And that was when they were at lower wages. 

No socialist will go cry for all the money lost by whomever scraped up the capital to take a risk. Maybe the owner/founder lost his house, car and family in the process. 

The selfish little socialist would simoply criticize the same person for not paying enough to the people who take no risk. The employee has no risk and very little of the stress.

I am thankful for those who raise the capital for multi-billion dollar or multi-thousand dollar adventures and invite me to participate. 

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:15 | 6512238 Pickleton
Pickleton's picture

Oh, so you're for surrendering everything YOU'VE earned over the course of your life when you die too.  Oh of course not.  Putz.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:29 | 6512268 FireBrander
FireBrander's picture

Complete moron Pick...so you define stealing from taxpayers as "earnings"?

I own a Laundromat ...I buy the politicians and shift my water costs onto the backs of taxpayers...dramatically increasing my profits...making me insanely rich...I "earned" that money?

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 01:15 | 6512430 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

You've made a good case that government is inefficient and immoral. More freedom is wanted.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 01:19 | 6512440 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

So everyone who does well stole it,or manipulated the government to use its power to gain favors? That is your assertions? So the answer is to give the corrupt politicians/government more power to set wages to offset the power they used to give favors? What are those odds? The government had better all be good people.

If you keep giving government more power what are the odds they will use it in your favor versus the evil rich guy? What do you do,to,the honest rich guy as compared to the evil rich guy? How do you tell them apart?

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 06:50 | 6512686 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Does well like a well is just another hole in the ground.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:27 | 6512262 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

A fool and his money.....

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 00:59 | 6512412 Victor von Doom
Victor von Doom's picture

"Indeed. All of those children of the elite who have millions to play with from conception and never have to work for a minute of their lives. Yes, they've "earned" it."

I'd rather a system that shows me I'm in a long dark tunnel with a light at the end of it (capitalism) than one that is a cold, dark cell with no light in sight at all (communism). 

Some must just prefer the dark I guess.

"My greatest flaw. I surround myself with idiots."

- Victor von Doom

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 01:22 | 6512443 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Generally losers like collectivism. One of their missions is to create class envy and tell you that they are your friend and free successful,people are actually your enemies. They will,also convince you that you are one paycheck or unlucky incident away from becoming a loser, too. They can magically prevent all bad things in life with enough power and enough of your own money.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:50 | 6512187 FireBrander
FireBrander's picture

Hogshit!

SNAP, MEDICIAD, SECTION 8, WIC...all that shit is CORPORATE FUCKEN WELFARE!

It allows corporations to boost profits by shifting the true cost of hiring someone onto the backs of taxpayers.

Kendall Jackson winery...the owners get billions in profits...the people of California spend billions providing health care, SNAP, Section8, WIC, etc., to Kendall Jacksons "workforce"...which is packed with illegals...Undercover Boss TV show exposed the whole fucken scam that winery is running on the people of California.

Private profits via social subsidies...that shits gotta end!

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:36 | 6512281 falconflight
falconflight's picture

Health care isn't and shouldn't have ever been the responsibility of private companies, meaning YOUR employer.  That began at the US Gov'ts legislative/Regulator behest in the 1960's.  Medicaid and Medicare for those future voters, but in the meantime business is responsible for the workers.  State directed fascist partnering w/ now nominally free enterprise, private employers.  Now the endgame is plainly visible.  Nationalize medical system bought and sold by the politicians of an unlimited government that will eat millions upon millions of citizens into poverty, and declining medical treatment. Hell death panels are real...the Independent Pay Advisory Board, which Congress cannot touch.  You really sick, you're going to die much sooner than you can imagine.  It is a cost control mechanism...remember the Independent Pay Advisory Board.  Gov. Palin wasn't blowing smoke up her ass in 2008.  

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 06:40 | 6512674 Bollixed
Bollixed's picture

"Health care isn't and shouldn't have ever been the responsibility of private companies, meaning YOUR employer.  That began at the US Gov'ts legislative/Regulator behest in the 1960's"

Actually, that began as a practice during WW2 as a way to get around the wage freeze and attract better workers by giving them the equivalent of a higher wage. However, once that camel got it's nose under the tent...

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 13:40 | 6513569 Arnold
Arnold's picture

Yup.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 11:34 | 6513251 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Falcon - Correct assesment about healthcare. The solution is better diet avoiding sugar and refined flour. Chicken breast is $2 a pound. Romain lettuce is cheap. I buy Fiber One at Publix and stock up when they are two for one. Beans are cheap. A person needs 38 grams per fiber per day.

If your digestive system gets screwed up you cant metabolize food which means your gut isnt creating chemicals you brain needs. Now your mentally ill. Supplement with Omega 3 and vitamins. i drink Emergen-C which is the only sugar I consume besides sugar in ketchup. I avoid caffiene. I learned the hard way so I don't judge.

Get to that gym 5 days a week. Start with the treadmill for 1/2 hour per day for a month if your fat then work in elyptical. Moderation of habits. Moderation is key, depriving yourself entirely statistacally ends in failure. The rewards for looking and feeling good are great. 

Then your health costs are lower too. 

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 12:23 | 6513357 arrowrod
arrowrod's picture

The only sensible comment in this trash heap.

 

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 01:26 | 6512446 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

So if all those programs are secret corporate subsidies we should end them, right? No corporate subsidies, right?

The problem could be that government is too big. I could,make everyone in America qualify for SNAP if we change the rules.

What happens to liberty in your ideal,plans?

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 04:33 | 6512578 August
August's picture

According the American Catholic Bishops, a "living wage" is about $200,000 per annum; this was back-calculated from what a any working American "should" be able to afford: buy a house in a decent community, raise a few kids with one parent staying at home while they're young, send said youngsters to parochial school, and then on to attend a Catholic college/university, all the while saving enough money for a decent retirement.

 

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 06:20 | 6512653 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

$200k only if you are living in fly over country where the cost of living is low

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:19 | 6512133 falconflight
falconflight's picture

Why don't the socialists simply call for pricing set by the US Labor Department and Department of Commerce (Nevermind, that's coming)?  Me thinks a very sizable share of the amerikan public would support such a "fairness" endeavor.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:17 | 6512241 Pickleton
Pickleton's picture

There seem to be plenty of buffoons on this site that support such garbage.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 01:32 | 6512452 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Government can no more run an economy and the trillions of inputs than a botanist or committe of botanists can run a rain forest from bacteria to panthers. In fact, in a socialist economy you do not even get botanists. You get self centered morons.

Ever notice that a high percentage of elected officials have never done anything productive in their lives? We should give these unaccomplished and demonstrably stupid people lots and lots of power to run our lives.

THIS is the essential genius of collectivism. And you wonder why it works so well in Venezuela?

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 04:53 | 6512596 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Lightweights rise to the top, basic physics...spot on FG....

 

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:19 | 6512135 spooz
spooz's picture

So, if labor can all be automated, the answer is to provide a Basic Income Guarantee to all citizens to replace the wages that no longer exist.  Also, an end to debt based fiat, replaced with sovereign currency issued by the Treasury, so that banks no longer get to create the money supply through lending.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:25 | 6512150 Monetas
Monetas's picture

With lower taxes .... job creation has no limits .... let freedom rip .... we have nothing to lose !

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:24 | 6512146 Spiritof42
Spiritof42's picture

Ever notice: When profits are increasing, unions want a bigger share. But when profits are eroding, it's not their problem. 

If this downturn is as severe as I think it is going to be, unions are soon to be out of business. Good riddance. 

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:41 | 6512167 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

Most unions are gubmint employee unions, raping their neighbors, the tax payers. Most gubmint employees are quite wealthy when factoring young retirement ages, large pensions, and health care covered by their neighbors.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:58 | 6512202 Spiritof42
Spiritof42's picture

I can't wait for the day when their respective government employers go bankrupt and they have to suffer mass layoffs and their pension funds go bankrupt.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:35 | 6512280 Arthur Schopenhauer
Arthur Schopenhauer's picture

Will you pass out potatoes to them from your back porch or your front porch? Will you perform your charitable duty in the mornings or the afternoons?

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 01:07 | 6512423 Victor von Doom
Victor von Doom's picture

Only charity those moochers would be getting off me would be a pointed finger and a belly laugh. They can have it all day long if they like.

"My greatest flaw. I surround myself with idiots."

- Victor von Doom

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 07:28 | 6512733 Arnold
Arnold's picture

Lay off by seniority is always the offset to higher union wages.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 11:35 | 6513243 Arthur Schopenhauer
Arthur Schopenhauer's picture

"My greatest flaw. I surround myself with idiots."

- Victor von Doom

"Birds of feather flock together."

William Turner

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 09:43 | 6512943 Spiritof42
Spiritof42's picture

Rotten tomatoes would be more appropiate. But I don't think they would see the intended humor.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 11:10 | 6513177 Arthur Schopenhauer
Arthur Schopenhauer's picture

You'll either pass out those potatoes or they'll club you over the head and take them.

All people have to go to sleep sometime... even self-aggrandizing people.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:16 | 6512239 FireBrander
FireBrander's picture

"Ever notice: When...profits are eroding"...there's ALWAYS millions, 10's of millions, of money on hand for executive compensation?

Ever notice, when a company goes belly up, the executives jump with platinum parachutes?

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 01:35 | 6512454 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Ever notice that quarterbacks and coaches make more than the other players?

Who do you think knows more about being successful in business, a CEO or the average Congressman?

In a socialist economy how does the average guy do compared to a freer economy? No rich CEO's.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:46 | 6512182 Pipetex
Pipetex's picture

The author can safely reach dreamland China by using the now unneeded economic literature as fuel...

 

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:48 | 6512185 AMPALANCE
AMPALANCE's picture

Funny, when the wealth redistribution is from poor to rich, everything is just peachy, as soon as anyone mentions wages merely keeping up with inflation, suddenly socialism is a horrific atrocity. it is morally wrong to force the poor/working poor to bare the brunt of Central banking created inflation, to intentionally misreport inflation is nothing short of creating a wage slave class. If you are in business and the price of your raw materials is increased do to inflation, you raise prices. Paying less wages to cover for increased cost is in the long term a destruction of the very economy from which you seek to draw profits.  Don't like Minimum wage laws? fine, dump the Central Bankers (for the third time) and their fiat scheme, until then stop the class warfare and prosperity destruction of expecting wage earners to bear the brunt of inflation.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:05 | 6512210 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

The Socialist/progressive mentality is to create massive inflation and then claim the poor need higher wages.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 23:20 | 6512249 AMPALANCE
AMPALANCE's picture

The Fascist/Corpratist mentallity that a wealth redistribution upwards is not the same Socialism as any wealth redistribution downward is short sighted, hypocritical and moronic.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 01:02 | 6512416 PrettySkulls
PrettySkulls's picture

Gods that exchange is funny.

AMPALANCE; Facism and Socialism are THE SAME. They are both Collecitivist doctrine, with a different yellow sticky label on the front.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 01:37 | 6512457 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

You leftists live in a fantasy world which is why you cannot govern. You have to deal with reality.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 01:14 | 6512433 Victor von Doom
Victor von Doom's picture

You're right on the ball Stuck on Zero. The Socialist agenda is not to meet the needs of the masses, but to make them needy.

Needy for Union representation of course...at a price.

"My greatest flaw. I surround myself with idiots."

- Victor von Doom

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 00:09 | 6512333 cornflakesdisease
cornflakesdisease's picture

Debasing the currency and credit expansion create that inflation.  From the early 1700's to the late 1800's, bread cost the same because it was based on a fixed stable currency (except in times of war).

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 22:49 | 6512188 blindman
blindman's picture

wages; never defined in any meaningful
way, smell the power of the word?

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