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Gold "Tightness": When There's No More To Sell, There's No More To Buy (At Any Price)

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Chris Martenson via PeakProsperity.com,

One of our long-running themes here is that the truly historic and massive flows of gold from West to East is (someday) going to stop, for the simple reason that there will be no more physical bullion left to move. 

It’s just a basic supply vs. demand issue.  At current rates of flow, sooner or later the West will entirely run out of physical gold to sell to China and India.  Although long before that hard limit, we suspect that the remaining holders of gold in the West will cease their willingness to part with their gold

So the date at which “the West runs out of gold to sell” is somewhere between now and whenever the last willing Western seller parts with their last ounce.  As each day passes, we get closer and closer to that fateful moment. 

This report centers on preponderance of fascinating data revealing the extent of the West's massive dis-hoarding of physical gold, for the first time, begins to allow us to start estimating the range of end-dates for the flow to the East.

Here’s the punchline: there’s an enormous and growing disconnect between the cash and physical markets for gold. This is exactly what we would expect to precede a major market-shaking event based on a physical gold shortage.

Stopping the Flows

There are only two outcomes that will stop the process of Western gold flowing East, one illegitimate and the other legitimate. 

  1. It becomes illegal to sell gold.  This is the favored approach of central planners who prefer to force change by dictate rather than via free markets and free will.   Unfortunately, this strain of political intervention is dominant in the West, particularly in the US and EU.
  2. The price of gold dramatically rises. A large increase in the price of gold will (paradoxically) cause greater demand for gold in the West and (sensibly) less demand in the East. This is what should legitimately happen given current supply and demand dynamics. But it may not. 

There’s always a 3rd option, we suppose: economically carpet-bombing China and India's financial systems to scare/force some gold back out. Consider such an approach along the ‘economic hitman’ lines of thinking. 

This would be done, for example, by having outside interests sell the Rupee furiously, driving down its value and forcing the Indian monetary authorities to defend it by using up foreign reserves to buy the Rupee. Then wait for India to run out of foreign reserves and then casually ‘suggest’ that its government use gold sales to continue defending its currency.  India's leaders would have to find ways to somehow ‘coax’ gold from its citizens.  I think we can all imagine the sorts of draconian rules and penalties that desperate governments would deploy in such a situation.

As a side note, I believe this is the same process that was used to ‘coax’ a lot of gold out of the GLD trust since 2012. After enough bear raids on the price of gold, which began somewhat suspiciously almost exactly on the date that QE3 was announced, Western gold ‘investors’ lost interest in the yellow metal, sold their GLD shares in droves, and hundreds of tons of gold were liberated from that stockpile.

What is truly odd from a chart perspective: this hammering down of gold started just after it had broken to the upside out of a textbook perfect triangle, when it looked seemingly ready to head off to higher values:

But in the days immediately following the QE3 announcement, gold shed $100, then barely recovered, and just wandered lower until it was violently slammed from $1550 to $1350 over one night (of course) in April 2013.

Now this was highly fortuitous for the ever-lucky Federal Reseve. After launching the largest money printing campaign in US history, the Fed did not need gold heading any higher, possibly providing a signal that would cast doubt on the wisdom or possible effectiveness of its easy-money policies. Policies, mind you, that the years since have proven to do little more than enrich the banker class and the 0.1%, as well as lard the system with extraordinary levels of new indebtedness and liquidity.

The Fed Indeed Cares About Gold

Gold, when unfettered, has a habit of sending signals that the Fed really doesn’t like. Therefore the Fed is at the top of everyone’s suspect list when it comes to wondering who might be behind the suspicious gold slams. Whether the Fed does it directly is rather doubtful; but they have a lot of useful proxies out there in their cartel network.

To reveal the extent to which gold sits front and center in the Fed’s mind, and how they think of it, here’s an excerpt from a 1993 FOMC meeting’s full transcript. Note that the full meeting notes from Fed meetings are only released years after the fact. The most recent ones available are only from 2009. Listen to what this FOMC voting member had to say about gold:

At the last meeting I was very concerned about what commodity prices were doing. And as you know, they got lucky again and told us that the rate of inflation was higher than we thought it was.

 

Now, I know there's nothing to it but they did get lucky. I've had plenty of econometric studies tell me how lucky commodity prices can get. I told you at the time that the reason I had not been upset before the March FOMC meeting was that the price of gold was well behaved.

 

But I said that the price of gold was moving. The price of gold at that time had moved up from 328 to 344, and I don't know what I was so excited about! I guess it was that I thought the price of gold was going on up. Now, if the price of gold goes up, long bond rates will not be involved.

 

People can talk about gold's price being due to what the Chinese are buying; that's the silliest nonsense that ever was. The price of gold is largely determined by what people who do not have trust in fiat money system want to use for an escape out of any currency, and they want to gain security through owning gold.

 

A monetary policy step at this time is a win/win. I don't know what is going to happen for sure. I hope Mike is correct that the rate of inflation will move back down to 2.6 percent for the remaining 8 months of this calendar year. If we make a move and Mike is correct, we could take credit for having accomplished this and the price of gold will soon be down to the 328 level and we can lower the fed funds rate at that point in time and declare victory.

(Source – Fed)

There it is, in black and white from an FOMC member’s own mouth spelling out the primary reason why I hold gold: I lack faith in our fiat money system. He nailed it.  Or rather, I have very great faith that the people managing the money system will print too much and ultimately destroy it. Same thing, said differently.

And of course the people at the Fed are acutely aware of gold's role as a barometer of people’s faith in ‘fiat money.’ Of course they track it very carefully, discuss it, and worry about it when it is sending ‘the wrong signals.’ I would, too, if in their shoes.

The Federal Reserve Note (a.k.a. the US dollar) is literally nothing more than an idea.  It has no intrinsic value. America's money supply is just digital ones and zeros careening about the planet, accompanied by a much smaller amount of actual paper currency. The last thing an idea needs is to be exposed as fraudulent. Trust is everything for a currency -- when that dies, the currency dies.

The other thing you can note from these FOMC minutes is that gold pops up 19 times in the conversation. The Fed members are are actively and deliberately discussing its price, role in setting interest rates, and the psychological impact of a rising or falling gold price.

Later in that same meeting Mr. Greenspan says:

My inclination for today--and I'm frankly most curious to get other people's views--would be to go to a tilt toward tightness and to watch the psychology as best we can. By the latter I mean to watch what is happening to the bond market, the exchange markets, and the price of gold…

 

I have one other issue I'd like to throw on the table. I hesitate to do it, but let me tell you some of the issues that are involved here. If we are dealing with psychology, then the thermometers one uses to measure it have an effect. I was raising the question on the side with Governor Mullins of what would happen if the Treasury sold a little gold in this market.

 

There's an interesting question here because if the gold price broke in that context, the thermometer would not be just a measuring tool. It would basically affect the underlying psychology. Now, we don't have the legal right to sell gold but I'm just frankly curious about what people's views are on situations of this nature because something unusual is involved in policy here. We're not just going through the standard policy where the money supply is expanding, the economy is expanding, and the Fed tightens. This is a wholly different thing.

The recap of all this is that the Fed watches the price of gold carefully, frets over whether the price of gold is ‘sending the right signals’ to market participants, and pays attention to gold's impact on market psychology (with an eye to controlling it).

In short, the Fed keeps a close eye on the "golden thermometer".

Back to the supply story for gold.  Not long after gold began its downward price movement in 2012, the GLD trust began coughing up a lot of gold, eventually shedding more than 500 tonnes; a truly massive amount.

(Source)

In my mind, the absolute slamming of gold in 2013 was done by a few select entities and represents one of the clearest cases of price manipulation on the recent record.  While we can debate the reasons ‘why’ gold was manipulated lower or ‘who’ did it, to me, there’s no question about how it was done. Or that it was done. 

Massive amounts of paper gold were dumped into a thin overnight market with the specific intent of driving down the price of gold.

It’s an open and shut case of price manipulation. Textbook perfect. 

Even if these bear raids were performed by self-interested parties that made money while doing it, you can be sure the Fed was smiling thankfully in the background and that the SEC wasn’t going to spend one minute looking into whether any securities laws were broken (especially those related to price manipulation). Gold's falling "thermometer" was exactly what the central planners wanted the world to see.

Down and Out

The paper markets for gold are centered in the US, while the physical market for gold is centered in London (but increasingly Shanghai).  It’s safe to say that the paper markets set the spot price, while the physical movement of gold originates in London.

What’s increasingly obvious is the growing disconnect between the paper and physical markets. This is exactly what we’d expect to see if the paper markets were pushing in one direction (down) while physical gold was heading in a different direction (out).

The tension between these ‘down and out’ movements is building and, according to a senior manager of one of the largest gold refineries in the world located in Switzerland, the current price of gold “has no correlation to the physical market.”

He notes a lot of on-going tightness in the physical market. Unsurprisingly, gold is moving from West to East with vaults in London supplying much of the physical metal that's being refined into fresh kilo bars and sent off to China and India.

But given the astonishing amount of physical demand, why has the price of gold been heading steadily lower over the past several years? 

The aforementioned Swiss refiner is equally perplexed:

If I am honest, the only thing I could share now with you would be that I’m perplexed about the discrepancy between the prices and the situation of the physical market. This is something I still do not understand and is a riddle for me every day. For all people who are interested in precious metals, the physical side of this business should be given more emphasis.

(Source – Transcript)

There’s no mystery as to demand going up in China and India as the price went down. Interested buyers will buy more at a lower price.

But its a big mystery as to why Western “investors” seem more interested in selling gold than buying it right now.

Evidence of Physical Tightness

Besides the first-hand experience of the Swiss refiner, there have been numerous stories in the main stream press also pointing to tightness in the London physical gold market as well as relentless demand from China and India being the driver of that condition:

Gold demand from China and India picks up

Sep 2, 2015

 

London’s gold market is showing tentative signs of increased demand for bullion from consumers in emerging markets, after the price of the precious metal fell to its lowest level in five years in July.

 

The cost of borrowing physical gold in London has risen sharply in recent weeks. That has been driven by dealers needing gold to deliver to refineries in Switzerland before it is melted down and sent to places such as India, according to market participants.

 

“[The rise] does indicate there is physical tightness in the market for gold for immediate delivery,” said Jon Butler, analyst at Mitsubishi.

 

The move comes as Indian gold demand picked up in July, with shipments of gold from Switzerland to India more than trebling. Most of that gold is likely to originally come from London before it is melted down into kilobars by Swiss refineries, according to analysts.

 

In the first half of this year, total recorded exports of gold from the UK were 50 per cent higher than the first half of 2014, on a monthly average basis, according to Rhona O’Connell, head of metals for GFMS at Thomson Reuters. More than 90 per cent was headed for a combination of China, Hong Kong and Switzerland.

 

London remains the world’s biggest centre for trading and storing gold.

(Source)

Shipments and exports are up very strongly and nearly all of that gold is headed to just two countries; China and India. 

India Precious Metals Import Explosive – August Gold 126t, Silver 1,400t

Sept 10, 2015

 

In the month of August 2015, India imported 126 tonnes of gold and 1,400 tonnes of silver, according to data from Infodrive India. Gold import into India is rising after a steep fall due to government import restrictions implemented in 2013.

 

Year-to-date India has imported 654 tonnes of gold, which is 66 % up year on year. 6,782 tonnes in silver bars have crossed the Indian border so far this year, up 96 % y/y.

 

Gold import is set to reach an annualized 980 tonnes, which would be up 26 % relative to 2014 and would be the second highest figure on (my) record – my record goes back to 2008.

 

Silver import is on track to reach an annualized 10,172 tonnes, up 44 % y/y! This would be a staggering 37 % of world mining.

(Source)

With China and India’s combined appetite for gold being higher than total world mining output, it only stands to reason that somebody has to be parting with their physical gold and those entities appear to be substantially located in the US and UK.

When There's No More To Sell, There's No More To Buy

All the above evidence of a tightening physical market for gold is just the tip of the iceberg.

In Part 2: Why Gold Is Headed Higher & May Be Unavailable At Any Price we look at the frightening inventory declines in bullion storage that the LBMA and the COMEX have experienced over the past year.

We then lay out how this deliberate suppression of gold prices by the central planners is destined to end: with MUCH higher prices for gold, and much less availability. In fact, there is high likelihood we will experience a point at which it may be nearly impossible for the average investor to acquire physical gold, as there will be no sellers willing to part with it.

Click here to read Part 2 of this report (free executive summary, enrollment required for full access)

 

 

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Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:07 | 6597137 Deathrips
Deathrips's picture

Correction. Theres none for sale for paper.

 

For all the work it would take to recover mine, i would consider trading it for a city block? A fleet of cars?...I could think of some other things.

 

RIPS

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:22 | 6597151 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

There's an interesting question here because if the gold price broke in that context, the thermometer would not be just a measuring tool. It would basically affect the underlying psychology.

 

This is exactly why the GLD and SLV were created:  To control the price (and market psychology) through hidden mechanisms because, as Greenspan admits, we do not have the legal right to sell gold.

CRIMINALS.

 

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:35 | 6597202 greenskeeper carl
greenskeeper carl's picture

anyone who thinks we are running out of gold is crazy. All you have to do it print more, right?

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:44 | 6597223 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

"This is exactly why the GLD and SLV were created:  To control the price"

+1000

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 21:01 | 6597847 philipat
philipat's picture

Isn't it the Comex naked paper shorts that control the price? GLD was created as a store of physical Gold to be raided as and when needed by the Cartel. This physical Gold is freed up AFTER the Comex price has been manipulated down and people decide to sell GLD shares.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 23:16 | 6598100 Dsyno
Dsyno's picture

If you're suggesting GLD is backed 1-for-1 with physical gold, you're sadly mistaken. Very little, if anything, is "freed up when people decide to sell GLD shares".

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 06:55 | 6598465 FinalEvent
FinalEvent's picture

Who needs gold when there is bitcoin?

Ever tried to send some physical gold through a wire with global trade?

 

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 08:19 | 6598534 Took Red Pill
Took Red Pill's picture

What I don't understand is why the mining companies tolerate this obvious price manipulation. They are losing so much money with some bankrupt or close to bankrupt. Why don't they speak up to stop this illegal activity?

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 08:28 | 6598543 SoilMyselfRotten
SoilMyselfRotten's picture

...if the gold price broke in that context, the thermometer would not be just a measuring tool. 

Which is a big motivator to remove cash from the system. What do you then compare golds fluctuations to? If you control the thermometer, you control the perception of the weather.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 09:38 | 6598618 UnpatrioticHoarder
UnpatrioticHoarder's picture

Martenson doesn't acknowledge GATA's work in bringing manipulation to light

 

http://gata.org/node/15779

 

What a cunt

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 12:32 | 6599111 Not My Real Name
Not My Real Name's picture

He also needs to do a better job acknowledging his other sources by name in his article, rather than just providing the link that says "Source." Most people don't bother clicking those links, and therefore the actual "source" never gets any real credit. 

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 09:39 | 6598622 Steve556
Steve556's picture

They are the ones driving gold down with their 3000 tons a year production.      They are the ones selling Comex futures to hedge their future production.     

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 13:04 | 6599256 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

"Now, we don't have the legal right to sell gold but I'm just frankly curious about...."

Mullins waves hands, grins, gives big thumbs up..stifles guffaw...

and you cannot mention gold manip without these quotes:

"We looked into the abyss if the gold price rose further. A further rise would have taken down one or several trading houses, which might have taken down all the rest in their wake. 

Therefore at any price, at any cost, the central banks had to quell the gold price, manage it."

 -Sir Eddie George, Bank of England, September 1999

 

I attended a meeting in NY last night at which Paul Volcker spoke. The fervor with which Volcker repeatedly asserted that gold was ‘the enemy’ during his term as Federal Reserve Chairman was striking.  – John Brimelow, “JB’s Gold Jottings”

That meeting referenced was March 25, 2015.  Over the years Paul Volker has made it no secret that the Federal Reserve has assumed a policy in which it seeks to control the price of gold.  From his memoirs, in reference to the dollar revaluation of the dollar by the U.S. Treasury on February 12, 1973 (Volker was the Treasury’s undersecretary for international monetary affairs at the time)  November 2004:

 

"That day the United States announced that the dollar would be devalued by 10 percent. By switching the yen to a floating exchange rate, the Japanese currency appreciated, and a sufficient realignment in exchange rates was realized. Joint intervention in gold sales to prevent a steep rise in the price of gold, however, was not undertaken. That was a mistake"

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 09:39 | 6598623 ltsgt1
ltsgt1's picture

GLD is not a scam for the big boys. It's a scam for retail investors who cannot afford to buy 4,000 shares or more. Small investors provide the capitals for GLD to accumulate physical but none can take delivery since they possess less than 4,000 shares.

GLD works like a gold sponge for the big boys. Mom and pop sell their gold jewelry to the Cash 4 Gold stores as the price ascend while small retail investors buy paper gold via GLD but are not allowed to take delivery. As GLD converts that paper to physical on the way up from $1,200 to $1,900, the big boys take physical delivery from GLD on the way down while small retail investors take paper loss.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 10:26 | 6598711 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

apmex has plenty of 1oz gold coins, gold bars however not many over 1 oz..hmm

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 18:01 | 6597466 Stevious
Stevious's picture

It does, oh yes, it does.

But if it's going to $950 it's best to put your $100,000 into gold and collect 105 ounces.

Do it today at 1146 and you'll only get 87 ounces.

Your choice.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 20:07 | 6597727 SilverDOG
SilverDOG's picture

 

 

Sure, you psychic?

Even if you are, knowing markets,

you would buy 1/2 now and 1/2 later.

Unless you know where you will be guaranteed delivery.

Buy portfolio percentage needed and move on.

What are you waiting for, cheap gold?

Nope. WEAK dollar.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:08 | 6597291 litemine
litemine's picture

SLW have control over large silver flows. They are linked to a company that started a gold flow thru.

When the price of Silver and Gold move so goes the profit and share price. Their is a Large Group of Lawyers that have filed Class action Law suits against Silver Wheaton..... But the company is standing firm on Canadian Laws and how they filed Tax Forms. Tried to beat down a Miner at Heart. 

This would be an Opportunity to increase profits by minting their own coins.......Value added Products. Decrease the shortage and remove the metal from the Fraudulant System.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:26 | 6597181 Argenta
Argenta's picture

I really wish ZH would do an in-depth report like this for silver.  Silver is consumed at a much higher rate than gold, and there's less of it above ground, refined, for purchase.  The fundamentals for Ag scream buy, but for some reason this is the red-headed stepchild of the commodity family.  I'm relatively new to this site so I may be speaking a bit out of turn and such a review has already been done.

If I were a silver mining operation, I'd sell just enough to keep the doors open and store the rest for the moment the rest of the world realizes the above.

By the way, I'm figuring out there must be numerous "Tyler(s)" contributing to this.  Kudos guys (and possible gals).  This site is awesome.

-Argenta

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:53 | 6597249 litemine
litemine's picture

In past blogs it stated that paper gold trade 250 times per OZ. of physical.

Silver trades upwards of 75 oz. per oz of Gold. 

With Silver is a "Follow me Metal" with benifits that big Pharma keeps down.

I believe Silver is a better buy, Gold is a Hold, unless you don't have any. (start with scrap).

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 18:24 | 6597540 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

You ought to read the bullshit being spewed over at SilverDoctors these days about silver prices.

Troll Central with shills and apologists defending the fraud ridden COMEX.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 20:33 | 6597786 balanced
balanced's picture

When you're feeling down, and want to read about how the crash is in full force behind the scenes, and PMs will be through the roof within a few days, then SilverDoctors is the place to go. Those articles have been heralding the imminent end of the world as we know it pretty much every day for the past 5 years. Be sure to turn off your "BS" meter for the full effect.

Wait what's the name of this article again? No hypocrisy here, move along.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 01:28 | 6598259 Dog Will Hunt
Dog Will Hunt's picture

Silver Doctors is full of end-timer Jesus freaks and that Blo Pony guy, anyway.  

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 03:44 | 6598329 JerseyJoe
JerseyJoe's picture

Blo is the comics section on that site.   Read for a laugh.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 10:39 | 6598744 Captain Benny
Captain Benny's picture

What's really annoying is that silver doctors posts neo Christian propaganda as news stories along side occasional news stories. It isn't just the crazy commenters, its the guys behind silver doctors.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:57 | 6597257 litemine
litemine's picture

In the past, blogs stated that paper gold trade 250 times per OZ. of physical gold.

Silver trades upwards of 75 oz. per oz of Gold. (normal should be 15 to 1)

With Silver it is a "Follow me Metal" with benifits that big Pharma keeps down.

I believe Silver is a better buy, Gold is a Hold, unless you don't have any. (start with scrap).

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 22:43 | 6598049 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

It hasn't been 15:1 for a long, long time. 40:1 or 30:1 is a more likely ratio. The 15:1 dates back to Rome.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 23:39 | 6598129 fukidontknow
fukidontknow's picture

Not true.

Oldballplayer

 

 

Twenty shillings to a pound in the sterling system.

20x0.1681oz=3.362oz  silver shillings 

0.235oz  gold one pound soveriegn 

 

so about 15:1

 

The sterling system was still being used in Australia as recently as seventy years ago and in England 100 years ago.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 07:45 | 6598498 USisCorrupt
USisCorrupt's picture

In the early 1800's Silver was more valuable than Gold.

 

When the US Milatary was 1st started it was common practice for one graduating from boot camp to give his commanding officer a silver dollar because it was more valuable than gold.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 22:35 | 6598030 Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

"By the way, I'm figuring out there must be numerous "Tyler(s)" contributing to this.  Kudos guys (and possible gals).  This site is awesome."

 

Well, in the "olden days", the separate authors used individual monikers.  And, when the site crashed (cleverly disguised as "maintenance") we could see Marla, in her cave, smoking.

 

there even used to be actual insiders from Wall Street firms that would contribute here too.  They've all left now, and we have more drive-by type commentary than useful input and frequent "heads-up" tips from those insiders.

 

Ahh, for the good old days.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 03:17 | 6598313 Midas
Midas's picture

If you are pining for the old days you better mention Money McBags.  I hope that dude gets laid off so he can update all of his dick jokes.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 23:09 | 6598091 jerry_theking_lawler
jerry_theking_lawler's picture

Yes, you must be new because all of the old timers know you can dig up silver just about anywhere for $5/oz.....

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 11:12 | 6598838 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture

 

 

No, that was Gold.

Silver could be dug up at no cost whatsoever...

 

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:10 | 6597301 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

I wish they had covered the possiblity of windfall profit taxes that the US government could focus on owners of gold.

While it may not affect non US citizens, it does affect US citizens.

I get tired of all the boat accident talk.  Reality should provide a stronger anchor here.

 

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:48 | 6597410 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

As someone with a little experience in,shall we say, non conventional gold importing and exporting,

I can assure you Gold is one of the hardest things in the world to collect tax on.

The 1930's gold confiscation was hardly a roaring success amongst people

with gold OUTSIDE the banks either.If you want to report any gains, I suppose thats your problem.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:58 | 6597449 Stevious
Stevious's picture

Agreed in 1 gram and 1/10th ounce bits.

Disagreed in 1/2>1 oz or larger.

Bullion is collectible.  Therefore the capital gain tax is higher.  If you buy from kitco or apmex and sell to them, you'll pay the higher capital gain tax.

If you intend to use it as barter, you probably won't.

If you intend to hold it till after you die, you're all set.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 18:03 | 6597472 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

Exactly, that was the thrust of my question.  I am talking 1 kilogram bars

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 19:29 | 6597633 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

The Jains have been smuggling kilo bars into Mumbai for decades to evade import duties.

Where theres a will, theres a way. The black market already exists, it will just adapt to gold and

drugs..

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 20:03 | 6597714 Talleyrand
Talleyrand's picture

Go Jains!

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 06:33 | 6598453 gonetogalt
gonetogalt's picture

+1000 creative import/export schemes. And fuck the IRS/Fed.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 12:44 | 6599160 Not My Real Name
Not My Real Name's picture

When selling to places like kitco or apmex, you pay no tax on Gold and Silver Eagles. Period. For most other foreign bullion there is no tax as long as you sell less than 25 1-oz. coins per transaction. Silver and gold bars ... again, no tax is paid unless the bars are 1000 oz (for silver) or 1 kg (for gold).

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 00:09 | 6598180 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

What do you think of Singapore or Shanghai gold storage or Vienna non bank?

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 08:51 | 6598569 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

I don't think much of it.Even as a multinational myself, I wouldn't trust them when push

comes to shove.If you are just an  American, I don't think you realize the level of resentment in the

RoW.When SHTF, don't expect to ever see that gold again.Even IF you can get there to claim

it.My $.02.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 12:41 | 6599120 Shift For Brains
Shift For Brains's picture

I believe I can field this one...don't even consider it. The only people pumping this "solution" hold an interest in the recipient storage business.

Had mine in Austria in the 90s and Singapore up until last year. Pulled it all home in physical form so there was no capital gain on it.

It is now more dangerous to have your assets in an institution than to have it in your own possession, no doubt about it. It can be converted by the host country, by a Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty, by the failure of the institution, by a failure of the financial network, etc.

If you have a home, anything short of Soros level wealth in gold would be easy to hide for all but a full blown raid that dismantled your house. Ordinary thieves can walk right by where it is and never suspect. And don't forget, even if PM is going nowhere in price you're paying storage and insurance costs to the institution month in and month out. If it's buried in your basement it can just quietly marinate there at no ongoing cost to you.

Grab the phyz, read up on where to stash it in your possession and you'll sleep a whole lot better than holding it offshore. Oh, and you won't have to report one damn bit of it to FINCEN either.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 22:10 | 6600726 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

Thanks for the reply.  I was not really expecting to get much and not really relying on it, but I appreciated your reply.  The one non FINCEN storage in Austria that I had heard was not a finacial institution and therefore, I think, not regulated as such was Das Safe (http://www.dassafe.com/)

But in reality, the amounts I would have I could probably still get out of the country without problem as I expect to eventually leave the states and this would be the grubstake to the other life...

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 05:56 | 6598426 Wile-E-Coyote
Wile-E-Coyote's picture

Couldn't agree more!

And this..........................

"Then wait for India to run out of foreign reserves and then casually ‘suggest’ that its government use gold sales to continue defending its currency.  India's leaders would have to find ways to somehow ‘coax’ gold from its citizens."

Best of luck with that one, the writer of this piece just doesn't understand the mentality of Indians when it comes to Gold, anyone trying to take it off them will be met with severe resistance and probably violence. The Gold will just disappear.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:06 | 6597138 DocBarter
DocBarter's picture

What garbage

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:31 | 6597190 Argenta
Argenta's picture

If you think that then you're not...thinking.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 22:20 | 6598008 nevadan
nevadan's picture

If you want an in depth silver report this might be of interest to you.

https://srsroccoreport.com/the-silver-chart-report/

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:07 | 6597139 richsob
richsob's picture

Physical shortages for gold and silver?  Yea, right.  If that's really true why is the mining industry in the dumper?  If there really was a TRUE shortage of precious metals accompanied by high demand the miners would be digging it out of the ground and putting it on the market.  Something doesn't add up. 

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:25 | 6597177 xrxs
xrxs's picture

Dollar rain in the forecast, might want to get a golden umbrella.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:27 | 6597182 Mr.Bigfoot
Mr.Bigfoot's picture

I was just at my coin shop. Gold Eagles and Buffalos in stock, minimal premium over spot. Local bullion dealers have plenty.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:31 | 6597193 Argenta
Argenta's picture

Did you happen to notice the premiums for silver Eagles?

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:36 | 6597204 Mr.Bigfoot
Mr.Bigfoot's picture

Silver premiums 4%. Same as always.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:42 | 6597222 Argenta
Argenta's picture

I've noticed that at times where I buy mine, then it jumps.  I'd like to point out there is likely pockets of availability, but do you see this continuing for the next 5 years?

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:49 | 6597234 greatbeard
greatbeard's picture

>> premiums 4%.

I'm not a buyer but I find it hard to believe your local coin shop has Silver Eages at $15.75.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:06 | 6597279 FrankDieter
FrankDieter's picture

the guy who said there were no premiums or just around 4 % is a liar and a total fuck-up

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 08:40 | 6598555 greenskeeper carl
greenskeeper carl's picture

yep. 19/oz at mine. last tiem i was in there, i think it was 19 for eagles/maples, 18 for rounds/bars. that guy is full of shit, 4% on eagles, unless he is a charity and doesn't mind losing money on every single transaction.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 18:11 | 6597499 a growing concern
a growing concern's picture

My LCS charges $3 over spot for generic one ounce rounds, $4 for silver Eagles. Is that higher than what other people are seeing?

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 20:21 | 6597756 SilverDOG
SilverDOG's picture

JMBullion is selling 1 oz .9999 2016 Kangaroos for $17.66, free shipping over $100.

$2.49 over spot from Aussie land, cheaper than Eagle or even Maple.

Same same same, LCS is $4 over, but still spot on junk silver, which they do not have.

 

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 05:54 | 6598424 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Went to local LCS today.  Silver anything was $5 over spot.  Maybe that sounds bad but he's been out of stock for six weeks.  Suppliers are telling him it will be another six weeks before he sees any more.  So $5 over spot but no spot.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 11:19 | 6598862 Pool Shark
Sun, 09/27/2015 - 12:49 | 6599185 Not My Real Name
Not My Real Name's picture

He's talking about the ones made from tungsten.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:45 | 6597405 AllMightyDollar
AllMightyDollar's picture

Silver premiums are a little north of 4% on commercial rounds, 10 ounce ad 100 ounce bars.  SILVER EAGLE PREMIUMS ARE 20% - Differnt animal that the generic. 

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 18:20 | 6597528 Fukushima Fricassee
Fukushima Fricassee's picture

OK Fisher what ever the fuck you say.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 07:51 | 6598507 Agstacker
Agstacker's picture

Please send us a link to this shop, I'd love to stop by and pick up some eagles with only a 4% premium.  If you don't, we can all assume you are a liar.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:39 | 6597210 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

Yeah, go local. The rest will burn.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:52 | 6597236 38BWD22
38BWD22's picture

 

 

The LCS's nearest me still have Au bullion coins in reasonably ample stock.  I have read that the retail trade might run out AFTER the large amounts of bullion are gone...  The price premia are still about the same ($90 - $95 over spot for AMerican 1 oz).

I have heard occasional reports of LARGE amounts of gold not being available (tonnes amounts).

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:09 | 6597299 Uchtdorf
Uchtdorf's picture

Go to providentmetals.com for much lower premium on 1 oz gold.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:40 | 6597394 38BWD22
38BWD22's picture

 

 

Provident is an excellent supplier, I have bought from them a few times.  

Paying by Bitcoin is a shade more expensive, but you save a week in shipment.

SHIPMENT being an important word here, the LCS doesn't know (exactly anyway) who I am.  Provident knows what I have bought from them, they have to send the gold somewhere and to someone...

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 06:01 | 6598428 Wile-E-Coyote
Wile-E-Coyote's picture

You could use a proxy address, I would if I wanted anonymity.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 19:42 | 6597660 Rubbish
Rubbish's picture

I was at my LCS a mint dealer this week and purchased 2.5 oz of gold, all 3 different coins. All were 2015 dates. That has never happened to me before at this LARGE shop, they always give you old stock people had sold. I conclude a tight grip is on above ground supplies other than newly poured/stamped bullion.

 

Gold Bitchez....I pick up pennies

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 21:51 | 6597943 83_vf_1100_c
83_vf_1100_c's picture

  I hear you on the LCS anonymity if you pay cash and leave your cell phone at home and if it's a newer car leave it at home and they will still get you on the facial recogition cameras on the corner aimed that way.

  Provident is a great company.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:26 | 6597352 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

1 Kilo bars premium has been 1.85% to 2.05% at least for the last three weeks.

http://goldprice.org/gold-prices/Gold-Bars.htm

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:55 | 6597439 JimS
JimS's picture

I do not know were you live, but where I live there is very, very little gold or silver for sale, in any form, at any price (although, there is a very high premuim on $100 bags of US 10/25/50 cent pieces).  That was last wenesday. I do not live in a depressed area of USA.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:34 | 6597199 SgtShaftoe
SgtShaftoe's picture

"Something doesn't add up." That's pretty much the only thing you said that made any sense, but not in the way you think.

You should go do your research. There an excellent blog linked on the left of your screen, but I've posted the link for your convenience:

http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:50 | 6597240 38BWD22
38BWD22's picture

 

 

+ 1

Jesse's site is excellent, both for gold novices and those who follow gold closely.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:47 | 6597227 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

richsob, silver is mostly a byproduct, and ounces per ton of mud is going down, while the energy needed to 'pump it up' is going up.

Investment silver is likely to surpass industrial use for the same reason.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:36 | 6597379 richsob
richsob's picture

Just to set the record straight for all you honks who are down voting me, I OWN gold.  Probably more than any of you own.  I like gold.  I just don't buy the shortage BS.  There's plenty of gold available; it's just being held off the market to create an artificial shortage.  When there's a REAL shortage the price will take off like a bat out of hell.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 20:21 | 6597757 SgtShaftoe
SgtShaftoe's picture

Yes, you're a special and unique snowflake. Don't worry.

This is for you:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR6EF7UD020

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:59 | 6597447 MoonSun
MoonSun's picture

I will tell my story. I never owned gold, never had the will to own it. In my country is not that popular.

However, listening to ZeroHedge, Jim Rickards, and some others, I have realized that it is reasonable to have gold in physical form, not in ETF or some other formula integrated in the financial system. If I have done it, it is likey that many others have done the same in a short period of time.

So I recently bought some physical gold as a way to diversify my portfolio. I must say, though, that it is costly to get the average assignment, which is about 3000 USD per capita in a developed country. It may be worth to own that, though, just in case.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 07:28 | 6598489 cowdogg
cowdogg's picture

Moron.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 12:46 | 6599161 Shift For Brains
Shift For Brains's picture

 Something doesn't add up. 

Looks like it's your Green Arrow total.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:22 | 6597169 cnmcdee
cnmcdee's picture

Make a parallel market - one for PHYSICAL, one for PAPER.  When the two are 400$ / ounce apart the paper market will just evaporate

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:26 | 6597180 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

I own 1/25,000th of India's annual silver imports :) THAT'S COOL!!! :) Concidering there's over a billion people living there :)

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:29 | 6597187 Argenta
Argenta's picture

Dude...that's roughly 10,000 troy ounces.  That's awesome.  Hope it's all physical and hope you plan accordingly (which I'm sure you have).  All the best, bro.

 

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:42 | 6597215 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

Yep, I sold a appartment for it in 2008 and I've also been buying ever since. Kilo per kilo, roll per roll.

Most of it is actually burried and if something would happen to me, there's a closed letter to my wife, second grade my father, third grade my kids in my will where it all is.

And the best part is, there's plenty of 2008 and 2009 coins in there that are now worth way more then the average silver ounce coins today.

 

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:45 | 6597226 Argenta
Argenta's picture

And you will be rewarded for it, I'm sure.  All the best.

-Argenta

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:52 | 6597424 Stevious
Stevious's picture

My advice is simple: Quick sell it.

Then in 4-6 months, buy 1.4x what you sold.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 20:31 | 6597785 SilverDOG
SilverDOG's picture

You actually prefaced with "my advice". 

WOW.

Tax losses factored of course. s/

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 18:59 | 6597597 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

I sincerely hope not all your savings in in silver and that you have at least some gold.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:33 | 6597197 fukidontknow
Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:44 | 6597224 83_vf_1100_c
83_vf_1100_c's picture

  When the price rises due to shortages the miners will start working again and prices will find some balance. This assumes free markets are allowed to reign. So, anything could happen.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:48 | 6597231 Argenta
Argenta's picture

Market dynamics won't kick in until people demand physical delivery.  Until then, we wait...

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:14 | 6597316 CHX
CHX's picture

The BRICS do just that. When the western people wake up, it will be too late to get any at discounted prices. So stack and thank TPTB for every day of this current pull-back.

 

On a different note I had to LOL at the "got lucky" FOMC comment. LUCKY ? Really ?BAHAAHAHAHAA...

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:48 | 6597230 q99x2
q99x2's picture

I read this yesterday on peak prosperity. Got my gold in today.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:48 | 6597232 CHoward
CHoward's picture

Get a 3D printer then you'd have all the gold you'd ever dream of.  Right?

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:15 | 6597318 litemine
litemine's picture

As long as you use 24 K ink. 

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:30 | 6597365 alphahammer
alphahammer's picture

 

---

To coat the outside of your tungsten bars...

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 08:26 | 6598542 Arnold
Arnold's picture

Would cost more to print it than to buy it

Yup, tungsten the way to go to hold down costs.

 

 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/higgypop/top-10-most-expensive-liquids-on-earth-...

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:55 | 6597248 Eddielaidler
Eddielaidler's picture

I stopped reading at this part : "At current rates of flow, sooner or later the West will entirely run out of physical gold to sell to China and India".

              I bet you can guess why.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:14 | 6597313 litemine
litemine's picture

Are you saying that the flow, in physical is sustainable?

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:51 | 6597414 Stevious
Stevious's picture

Yup, you got it!  Price of oil plummets and they try to increase volume sold.

Price of gold drops and engineers frantically moves the operations to the richest areas.

Remember, if you owe, let's say $1 million a month in interest payments and your profit gets cut in half, if you double the grams/tonne well, the bill gets paid and you still have a job.

Agreed, as to how long this scenario can go on, for some a long time, for others, not so long at all.

Eventually there will be a physical crisis but it's not in the next month or two...not yet.

Over the past few years I've lost plenty of $ in mining stocks: It goes like this.  I paid $3/share because it was a great sell-out candidate.  The price drops to $1.  A buyer appears and offers a whopping 140% of the last 4 months's stock price.  Wooo....but I just lost all my money, even if I was right.

Vatukoula and Gold One comes to mind amongst others.  Take-over candidates work just fine. (Excepting in a drawn out bear market---like we're in right now).

 

And DO NOT forget that gold is a cushy $1500 per troy ounce.  (If the gold is mined in Canada!)

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 22:21 | 6598010 nidaar
nidaar's picture

Put yourself in the shoes of a major miner with lots of gold underground and no immediate need for debt repayment.

A)- Would you break your ass to saturate the market with artifically battered down gold prices (e.g. gold being sold while kept in books at the same time, by fraudulent banksters)?

B)- Or would you sit back and wait until SHTF and sell at much higher proices later?

When fiat's unavoidable demise unleashes all things with a real value, especially gold and silver, the same miner's stocks will spike wildly. Because of all the locked-in 401Ks, pensions, and shit like that frantically escaping from bubble stocks.

Those who can wait, like that miner and owners of gold & silver, will be laughing last and best.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 12:49 | 6599194 Shift For Brains
Shift For Brains's picture

I stopped reading at this part : "At current rates of flow, sooner or later the West will entirely run out of physical gold to sell to China and India".

I bet you can guess why.

 

You  had to get out your Encyclopedia Brittanica to look up where they were?

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 16:58 | 6597259 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

Alot of nice gold coins from previous years are no longer available ... all sold out.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:25 | 6597354 Stevious
Stevious's picture

So?  All that means is that there are a group of stupid suckers.  Yah, as though 1 2010 or 20012 Eagle or Buffalo will ever really be valuable as a collector item.  Every single one-------every one becomes part of a collection.

The only time collectibles really get collectible is if nobody collected them, then true rarity becomes a factor.

Haha.....from the late 60's to the 80's I collected full blocks and plate blocks of stamps, today I use them for what little I post, virtually none of them have collector value.

For crying out loud if you are going to collect anything collect coins that have significant rarity value.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 20:37 | 6597797 SilverDOG
SilverDOG's picture

60's and 80' all gone now.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 23:08 | 6598090 Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

"For crying out loud if you are going to collect anything collect coins that have significant rarity value."

 

Well, from my days in the U.S. Navy (1980-1986) I do have some nice Italian Gettone and Lire coins, and some Phillipino scrip too.  I guess that my best Aussie Dollar ('roo crossing the finish line) should be worth something too - it did get me a few pitchers of Swan Lager in Perth (at the 383 club*).

 

 

*Pinocchio's

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 12:54 | 6599218 Shift For Brains
Shift For Brains's picture

Just curious. So far you've shared that you've lost tons of money in mining stocks and your undeserved confidence in riches through rare stamp purchases.

Can you give us a good reason why we should be considering your take on the future flow of PM and its market value?

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:01 | 6597268 FrankDieter
FrankDieter's picture

You are so full of shit, bud

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:11 | 6597303 litemine
litemine's picture

Not from what I see. 

Do they pay well, being a minion I mean?

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:29 | 6597319 Anopheles
Anopheles's picture

Yep, he's full of BS  (the writer)

There's 2,500 tonnes of NEW supply mined every year.  Only 12% is used for industrial applications.

India also EXPORTS gold every month.   Why didn't he mention gold EXPORTS?  To make it sound like India is vacuuming up all the gold in the world? 

Just another hawker scaring people into buying his gold. 

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:52 | 6597418 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

Those exports are to places like this where Indians buy gold all over the world.

http://www.malanijewelers.com/

but nice propaganda attempt on your part.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:58 | 6597443 Anopheles
Anopheles's picture

That's called an EXPORT, which is exactly what I said. 

 

 

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 18:01 | 6597462 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

Are you just willingly ignorant?  Where do you think 22k gold in Indian shops all over the world comes from?  It's still Indian gold demand.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 11:32 | 6597791 Anopheles
Anopheles's picture

You really are daft.   You evidently don't know the meaning of the word EXPORT.  

EXPORTED means it's no longer in the same country that IMPORTED it. 

 

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:12 | 6597308 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

<< I think bitgold is a great way to own gold

<< I think bitgold is another ponzi rehypothecation scheme

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:18 | 6597326 achmachat
achmachat's picture

None of the above.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:43 | 6597401 38BWD22
38BWD22's picture

 

 

Bitcoin is OK (small percentage of your assets, say 1% max).

Gold is great.

Bitgold, no gracias.

Would + 1 ya, Latitude25, but do not want to disrupt your poll.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 04:57 | 6598357 overqualified
overqualified's picture

this is way better: http://alturl.com/oqobt

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:15 | 6597321 Amish FinEng
Amish FinEng's picture

My "all in" price target was $3765. But now I'm pretty sure we're going to rocket past that point so fast that my MIT's will be filled at 20k or some-such.

As Amish we have never trusted the English money masters. We use it to transact with the outside world but our Church has been built on a solid foundation of metal.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 05:40 | 6598409 Pliskin
Pliskin's picture

Amish eh? Making the most of your computer and internet connection, good 'Amish' guy that you are?

 

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 12:57 | 6599233 Shift For Brains
Shift For Brains's picture

He's in the Reformed wing. You can tell from the tie dye sidelocks.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 15:43 | 6599746 justdues
justdues's picture

Hey Amish , those "English money masters" aint exactly indiginous English , they are "aliens"

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 14:23 | 6599461 explosivo
explosivo's picture

His computer is made out of wood. 

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:16 | 6597322 29.5 hours
29.5 hours's picture

.
.
.
Disappearing gold? How about disappearing cash. Today I got a letter in the mail from Bank of America saying henceforth I would need photo ID to deposit cash in any of my accounts.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:25 | 6597348 alphahammer
alphahammer's picture

 

--

Interesting. I have a BofA account and haven't heard anything about this. Potential funny business going on with your account?

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:35 | 6597378 29.5 hours
29.5 hours's picture

.
.
.
@alphahammer
Nope, it was not personal. Addressed to all account holders. Included in printed end-of-month statement in that extra sheet one most likely tosses getting to the juicy stuff.

One more turn of the screw...

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:42 | 6597400 Stevious
Stevious's picture

29.5 is a drug dealer, didn't you know?

Yup, they are wise to his ways.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 18:21 | 6597532 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

The question is, Why  The Hell  is he a customer of BOA?

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 18:53 | 6597592 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

Exactly - I pestered my mother to no end until she moved her accounts to a credit union. Anyone still at BoA after their shameless derivatives priority scam needs their head examined.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 18:02 | 6597470 Anopheles
Anopheles's picture

It's also another reason why Bitcoin will never achieve anything more than the success it has right now.  You won't be able to get cash into, or out of, bitcoin without the government knowing. 

Bitcoin ATM?  You will need ID.  Redeam bitcoin?  Fintrac. 

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 19:35 | 6597644 GotGalt
GotGalt's picture

That's strange.  I'm also a Bank of America account holder and did not receive any such notice.  It goes without saying that they verify all withdrawels though, ha ha.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:20 | 6597331 yogibear
yogibear's picture

Love when the COMEX paper boys smash the price down. Cheaper to buy.

It will be sweet to see the COMEX not being able to deliver.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:24 | 6597343 alphahammer
alphahammer's picture

Stopping the Flows

 

There are only two THREE outcomes that will stop the process of Western gold flowing East, one illegitimate and the other legitimate. 

 

1) It becomes illegal to sell gold.  

2) The price of gold dramatically rises. 

and 

3) THE WORLD FINALLY CATCHES ON TO THE FACT THAT THERE IS NO SAFETY IN ANY FORM OF GOLD DUE TO THE MASSIVE AMOUNT OF FAKE GOLD ACROSS EVERYTHING FROM NUMISMATIC TO CENTRAL BANK HOLDINGS!

Item #3 will quickly halt the process of gold flowing anywhere. Watch and see...

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:30 | 6597363 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

Time for your education.  A simple low cost resonance test for gold and silver bullion coins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pZnqp3bl3A

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 17:49 | 6597413 38BWD22
38BWD22's picture

 

 

Yep.  With some diligence, anyone can learn to pick out fake gold.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 18:10 | 6597495 Amish FinEng
Amish FinEng's picture

The real trick is never to put yourself in a position where you would be desperate enough to purchase from a stranger.

The integrity of metals should be a reflection of it's owner or transferee. Do not forget that. If you question it, walk away.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 18:37 | 6597558 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

Inrteresting that you point that out.  I purchased an AGE that was dated 1986 with roman numerals.  When I got it home I weighed it and ran the resonance test.  It was slightly overweight and did not ping correctly.  I returned it to the shop and they traded it for a good one with no questions.  Lesson learned:  There must be some 1986 with tungsten cores floating around.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 19:07 | 6597600 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

Ping correctly? Why couldn't you ping it in the shop? Having said that, did they ever put Roman  numerals on the eagle? Why would a counterfeiter?

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 19:49 | 6597673 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

That just requires a little investigation on your part to learn something.  1986 was the first year of AGEs and the US Mint put the date in roman numerals.  I forgot the tablet with the resonance test that day and did it at home.  Luckily my LCS is very reputable.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 19:09 | 6597607 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

Good advice.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 11:34 | 6598881 Anopheles
Anopheles's picture

Gold PLATED tungsten bars are fairly easy to detech. 

Good fake gold is almost impossible to detect.  They use a veneer of real gold over tungsten, not just a thin electroplate.  That means unless you physically drill the bar, you won't find it. 

https://youtu.be/trMTQBKbZlk

 

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 11:37 | 6598924 Tinky
Tinky's picture

WRONG – ultrasound.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 18:42 | 6597570 alphahammer
alphahammer's picture

...

 

Yea you can use a GE Phasor to do the test as well.

I think you miss the point. The amounts of this shit are staggering. Now, how many central banks and or bullion dealers etc will actually test? They wont test for fear of finding out they sit on fake gold. This just adds to the danger of the situation unravelling because if central banks are asked to test and verify -- and they wont do it -- then the entire gold complex will collapse because everyone will know EXACTLY why they wont test... They are caught in a massive Catch 22.

The fine wine world is sitting in exactly the same place. Massive amounts of collectible wine were purchased by really smart collectors via private sale and auction. Now the word is out, these collectors sitting on $millions wont have their wine tested and verified for authenticity because when they find out its fake -- they lose big. The world of wine collecting is a disater. There is no trust and its basically locked up.

If you want to scare yourself. Check out Alibaba. Look at some of these companies selling gold plated tungsten coins -- they are doing $MILLIONS per year in sales according to their Alibaba business profile. Somebody is buying/selling this shit and in very very large amounts. 

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/gold-plated-tungsten-coin.html

 

 

 

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 19:11 | 6597609 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

$Millions you say?

I would be curious who is buying it. It is easy to test for fakes. 

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 20:16 | 6597746 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

You should check out Koos Jansen who devotes his life to studying the Chinese gold market.  You will learn that the SGE melts ALL incoming gold before it goes out again, even gold that it previously issued as bars.  Also I have heard nothing about Swiss refineries encountering fake bars.

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 05:03 | 6598360 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Swiss refineries (and Customs) have encountered fake gold, but Swiss refineries are also picky about who they buy from... if you aren't already in Switzerland, or an established international firm with the means to test your own inventory, you probably are't selling to a Swiss refiner.

(you can skip to 2:55 for the relevant tungsten core bar porn)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WxEugoxdc4

http://www.ezv.admin.ch/org/04135/04962/04965/index.html?lang=de

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