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Did The PBOC Covertly Buy 1,747 Tonnes Of Gold In London?
Submitted by Koos Jansen via BullionStar.com,
The London Float And PBOC Gold Purchases
This BullionStar blogpost is part of a chronological storyline. Please make sure you’ve read The Mechanics Of The Chinese Domestic Gold Market, PBOC Gold Purchases: Separating Facts from Speculation and The London Bullion Market And International Gold Trade, or it will be difficult to understand the finesses.
This week I listened to an interview with a Swiss refiner which promptly reminded me of an interview I conducted with Alex Stanczyk (currently Managing Director of Physical Gold Fund SP) on 9 September 2013 about what he was hearing from industry insiders on Chinese gold demand. Back then we knew very little about the Chinese gold market and how physical gold across the globe was flowing towards China. This started to change on 18 September 2013 when I published my first analysis on the structure of the Chinese gold market with the Shanghai Gold Exchange (SGE) at its core; a topic that since then has been discussed by researchers at investment banks, in the blogosphere and in the mainstream media. The Western gold space has learned a great deal about the Chinese gold market and global gold flows, though we’re always left with loose ends. For example, the issue regarding PBOC gold purchases; how much gold do they truly have and where was it bought? Does the PBOC buy 400-ounce Good Delivery (GD) bars in London and covertly transports these gold bars to its gold vaults in China mainland, or are the Good Delivery gold bars shipped to Switzerland, refined into 1 Kg 9999 gold bars, sent forward to the Chinese mainland where they’re required to be sold through the SGE gold exchange and from where they can be bought (in clear sight) by the PBOC. The latter would imply that the full gold flow would be visible for anyone with an Internet connection.
Yesterday I re-read my interview with Alex from September 2013 in which he shared information from industry insiders. From Alex (September 2013):
One of our partners had lunch in the recent past with the head of the largest global operations company in security transport. He said there is a lot of gold that they’re moving into China that’s not going through exchanges. If the gold is for the government they don’t have to declare where it’s going. They don’t have to declare where it’s going in, or where it’s heading. If you look at the way the Chinese do things, why would they tell?
With the knowledge we have now, this quote from 2013 is even more interesting, as it describes what has come together in the past years through several analysis. Consider the following:
- Good Delivery gold bars can be monetized – in countries like the UK, Hong Kong, Switzerland and Singapore – from where they can be shipped into China while circumventing global trade statistics. This is because monetary Good Delivery gold bars are exempt from global trade statistics (UN, IMTS 2010). Needless to say monetary imports into China are conducted by the PBOC.
- Non-monetary Good Delivery gold bars (declared at international customs departments) imported into the Chinese domestic gold market are required to be sold through the SGE. However, trading volume at the SGE in GD bars has been a mere 3 tonnes in all of history.
We can thus conclude that if any Good Delivery gold bars have entered China these did not go through the SGE system where Chinese citizens, banks and institutions buy gold. Instead, it’s likely that the Good Delivery gold bars that crossed the Chinese border went directly to the PBOC vaults.
More from Alex (September 2013):
…We talked to the head of the largest refinery in Switzerland and he told us directly that all that metal that’s coming out of London is being refined into kilo bars and sent to China, as well as metal that’s coming in from other areas in the world, that’s all going to China. It’s way more than is being reported or moved through the exchanges. All the kilo bars go to the Chinese people but the PBOC is likely only buying good delivery [GD].
There you have it. More clues the PBOC does not buy gold through the SGE (where only gold bars smaller than GD are traded). But there is more.
Although, it’s virtually impossible to track monetary gold flows, the least we can do is try. In recent weeks Ronan Manly, Bron Suchecki, Nick Laird and I conducted a small investigation with respect to how much monetary and non-monetary gold is left in the UK. Luckily for us, the London Bullion Market Association (LBMA) has published a few estimates in recent years about the total amount of physical gold in London (monetary and non-monetary). In 2011, it was 9,000 tonnes. In 2015, it had dropped to 6,256 tonnes – likely all in GD bars. These estimates from the LBMA combined with our investigation have resulted in the next charts (conceived by Nick Laird, Sharelynx):
For a better understanding of physical gold located in London you can read this post by Ronan, this post by Nick or have a look at the next diagram conceived by Jesse (Cafe Americain):
According to gold trade data from HMRC, the UK saw a net (non-monetary) gold outflow from 1 January 2011 to 30 June 2015 of 997 tonnes. Have a look at the chart below. The UK net exported 1,425 tonnes in 2013. In 2014 net export fell to 448 tonnes. Add to that the UK net imported 904 tonnes in 2012.
We don’t know exactly when in 2011 the LBMA measured there were 9,000 tonnes of gold in London, but it doesn’t really matter. In the chart above we can see that the most significant movements since 2011 have taken place in 2012 and 2013. If we measure the flow of gold from the UK between 2012 and 2014, the net outflow is 970 tonnes. So it’s not that important when in 2011 the 9,000 tonnes were counted by the LBMA. What is important is that since 2011 not more than 997 tonnes of non-monetary gold has left the UK, according to official trade statistics.
Nick Laird and I noticed that although the total amount of physical gold in London fell roughly 2,744 tonnes (9,000 – 6,256) over four years (graph 1), only 997 tonnes were net exported as non-monetary gold (graph 4). This makes me wonder where the residual 1,747 tonnes (2,744 – 997) went. Possibly, this gold has been monetized in the UK and covertly shipped to a central bank in Asia, for example China. I don’t have rock hard evidence, but it fits right into the wider analyses.
Furthermore, from 2006 to 2011, the UK was a net importer every year. If the 9,000 tonnes estimate by the LBMA was hopelessly outdated, say, it was from 2008, this would increase the “missing gold” even more (as net export over the years would have been smaller than 997 tonnes).
What stands out for now is, (i) the LBMA has stated there were 9,000 tonnes of physical gold in London in 2011 and (ii) gold trade provided by HMRC reflects all physical movement of non-monetary gold in and out of the UK. Both these handles have nothing to do with complicated rules on changes in ownership of gold in London (that I’m aware of). Therefor we must conclude 2,744 tonnes left the UK since 2011, but only 997 tonnes was seen leaving as non-monetary gold. Where did the residual 1,747 tonnes go?
This investigation is far from finished, next I will research historic UK gold tarde – as far back as possible. Hopefully we can find another piece of the puzzle.
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Can 1,747 tonnes really be bought "covertly"?
I mean, that sort of transaction can be picked-up on Doppler & satellites, for pete's sake...
if everybody who's watching is in on it and doesn't say anything..
More scaremongering from people who make a living of....the (fiat!) commissions on precious metals sales.
Show me any relatively independent (nobody in this world is truly independent) thinker/hedge funds manager/financial expert (people who try to go for value, and not just sales commissions!) and when they say something like "gee, we've ran the numbers and this gold thingie looks like a mother of a short squeeze waiting to happen, we're getting out of stocks & bond and into gold" then I will start believe this stuff.
It's the same old faces that have been saying the same old stuff about gold for years...all the way from $1900 to $1100. Maloney, KWN, Schiff, Von Greyerz, Celente, Faber, Sprott, etc etc. The list goes on and on and they've been wrong year after year.
Give me enough darts to throw at a dart board and I can also be a "precious metals expert," especially if I make a commission off every sale.
Remember, they have a DIRECT benefit of 'talking up' gold and keeping gold prices elevated, because their commission is a PERCENTAGE of the spot price.
p.s. yeah, as usual go ahead with the minuses.
@Bokkenrijder
I agree with what you say. The majority of the people here might down vote you, but in the back of their minds they agree with you.
Yes, they are of the same breed as the other BTFD sheeple, except that they buy into a different asset class.
To them gold and conspiracy thinking become a sort of a religion, a cult so to speak, and they will defend their 'religion' with a blinding fanaticism and an avalanche of red minuses. ;-)
3 towers in free fall collapse type of religion?
Some years ago China began converting a significant portion of the worlds mobile gold hoard into a superior standard, one kilo 4 nines fineness bars, then ravenously importing it. Now the West is left with a demonstrably inferior product which the West must still recognize as legitimate but which China does not need to recognize.
So if PBoC ever is forced to directly import London banker bars they're still fully globally negotiable.
Not really, It's more of a philosophy of "Be right and sit tight" - Jesse Livermore
It's actually about taking a moral stand against the socialism, fascism, and despotism that come from accepting and using fiat currency. If I were to use fiat currency, I may in fact be wealthier, but I would be morally inferior by further participating in a system used to oppress millions of people. Putting money into gold and silver for your savings is the morally correct thing to do, even if you lose money doing it.
Hard assets will be safe when they print lots more to cure the civil unrest due to plunging prices. It's happened before, beleive it or not.
Oil and PMs are a great safe haven imo. Houses traditionally are but the Fed antics forced them way unrealisitcally high and propped them up there. We are seeing how that is working out in some places already where prices have fallen and can't get up. Worse yet, unemployment rate and wage stagnantion make it impossible for those people to buy a 400% overpriced house.
Who knows but a portion of one's portfolio in PMs is not a bad idea. Canadian and Australian currencies have plunged over 30%. Those savings accounts in cashola got punked badly. Gold holders did very well.
Nobodies "buying" anythinig, they're exchanging OUT OF paper fiat.
You see it now, fiat losing value to purchase (there is your term "buying", what buying really is) items people want to buy is called inflation, you probably see it as merely a "price increase" but really it's the value of fiat going down.
Don't you find it odd (in the mentally handicapped world of fiat) that one raggedy ass, beat up 1964 quarter (with a fiat face value of 25 cents) has a melt value of two dollars and 73 cents? ;-)
I received a 1953 Canadian dime in my change 2 weeks ago and I'm still giddy about it.
It's really cool when it happens ain't it?
I had a cashier accidently drop some change handing it all back to me one time and I heard the distinctive "ping" when one of them hit the counter. I looked at her, she at me...she said "I'm sorry".
I said not a problem, smiled, gathered it all up walked out.
A Barber quarter of all things ;-)
i love the ping of gold and silver, gold is even better, it rings.
The only thing better than selling fiat for Ag & Au, is getting it for free.
I make it a habit to peek in the discard slot of the Green Coin Star machine as I exit Krogers. I have found silver dimes there 3 times b/c Coin Star rejects them for not being the correct weight as a 'real' dime. My credit union has a similar machine and once I found a handful of tokens and silver coins in the discard slot. People are lazy and/or unaware.
I have found a couple of Ag dimes that way, and I have found two on different occasions that had been picked out of the discard slot, and set at the counter top level of the machine, as if someone picked it up, looked at it, and said, " It's just a dime" set it down and walked off !!!!!!!
It's my money, don't worry about me.
I work out of my house. I have a TV on most all day just for noise.
The advertising on TV for gold is just sickening. And they are designed to make old, old people scared. (The other group of at home TV watchers cannot afford gold or silver....except for their teeth)
As someone who did marketing for a while, when you start seeing the product hawked on TV as if you were at the county fair, you KNOW its a scam. And when they kill off Robert Wagner, Henry Winkler, and William DeVane, I have to wonder who they are going to drag out for MY generation: Robert Downey Jr? Judd Nelson? or the other douches from the Bratt Pack?
Fuck the Shemitah...that would be the sign of the true end of days.
Holy shit, did you know they market FOOD on TV!??
Must be a scam. Better not buy any ever again!
Turn off the stnkin' TV.
Lol. Checkmate in 1 comment.
it's gold plated commerative crap that they're hawking...you don't see many commercials hawking gold Eagles.
Keep suckling the FED teet.
"Show me any relatively independent (nobody in this world is truly independent) thinker/hedge funds manager/financial expert (people who try to go for value, and not just sales commissions!) and when they say something like "gee, we've ran the numbers and this gold thingie looks like a mother of a short squeeze waiting to happen, we're getting out of stocks & bond and into gold" then I will start believe this stuff."
You show a complete misunderstanding of human behavior. Think of it more like a herd. When a single member of the herd is going one way, then without looking, you can be that the entire herd is headed the same way.
All the people that you describe, the ones who listen to the data and common sense, are all in the gold camp already.
By the time your "average" herdmember is buying gold, it's already too late.
I somehow sense that you are not the sort of person who should be investing, as you are literally advocating following the trend rather than leading it.
Buy MOOOOOOOOre stocks. MOOOOOOOOOOOO
Like the hundreds or thousands of administrators and engineers who didn't talk about Volkswagen's emissions software fraud??
Oh, no. That could not be kept secret fom the mainstream media. Impossible for it to be kept hidden for over 7 years. Or probably more than the 9 years since Bosch notified VW management hat the emisssions software was probably illegal. Bosch is an emissions control supplier to VW.
Oh, no. we would certainly know about it.
The real question is how our countries can still hide that drain
Tungsten . . . bitchez.
Can 1,747 tonnes really be bought "covertly"?
I mean, that sort of transaction can be picked-up on Doppler & satellites, for pete's sake...
Sure, if Dirk Straun can navigate 40 Lac of Jin-Qua's silver down the river in a canoe undetected, then why not?
Great book!
Ian Dunross would agree...
leave Pete out of this.
PBOC hasn't been too convert before while being convert. Next thing you know, they'l covertly buy BTC.
Over 4 years it wouldn't have gone as one transaction, just dribs'n'drabs.
So central banks can buy all the Gold they want and not declare it (or liquidate it, *cough* Fort Knox, *cough*).
They can also bail out corrupt and bankrupt banks/corporations/insurers.
Us serfs? Not so much; everything tracked, scanned, declared.
We are all property off the central banks. At least that's how they see it.
Everything?
Soon as they get rid of paper and coin currency and outlaw individual precious metals transactions.
They'll do it to protect us from "terrorists" and "drug dealers" and "for the children" of course.
Gold is money, everything else is currency...or just paper. Forget that at your peril. I like the Valcombi detachable 1-gram bits
But HOW is gold money? Why is it so? What is not-money and why?
How can one forget what they have never known??
http://ocsure.blogspot.com/2015/09/how-gold-is-money.html
Some ARE more equal...
What does it matter at this point HOW they got it. They did, the damage is down to the West. The gold that has left, and is continuing leaving, will not come back for a LONG time. Game over.
Wait a minute. Don't these guys read ZH??? The London metals exchange has not paid out in gold for their own accounts for almos 2 years now. The gold sent to switzerland is chinese gold most likely and it has been a lot. The LME has lied a lot for the last 4 years, so who knows what few coins they have left. The queen in a video of the LME storage looked at the gold and said "Pity it is not ours." In the back of the room was a shelf of the old not good for delivery rectangular bars of doubful purity.
Jim Willie's sources which have been very good estimate 10,000 tons to 15,000 tons of gold based on a different set of sources and numbers. China always understates these numbers. Silver also. China will use it to back their gold backed trading notes.
The article is meaningless in light of this. Trusting the LME is dangerous, as is the Comex. London owes 100 ounces of gold for every ounce they have. So how big is that deficit?
If you thought a Fed rate increase would implode the US economy, just think what an audit would do.
This is all very interesting, but please consider that China has likely been the world's largest gold miner since at least 2008.
Regardless of all the Canadian and Auzzie JV, gold mining is a national security venture overseen by PLA families since Deng.
It should not be beyond the realm of possibility that China is producing over 500 tons annually.
How much is for consumers and how much is for state interests is up for grabs.
Some goes out the back door, but when you consider the slack in other world production and all the labor and environment possibilities in China, the accumulation of "bought gold" from markets is secondary to China's national strategy.
China will disclose its gold holdings when they have eclipsed American holdings by at least 10-20% and people start selling their San Francisco real estate for yuan instead of dollars.
Dozens of dis-employed North American mine engineers head to China to consult on a host of discoveries every year.
In the US, the Fed claims Gold is a forgotten relic.
In China, gold is the political culture foundation of a hundred year economic hegemony.
Perception is reality.
'In the US, the Fed claims Gold is a forgotten relic''
True - therefore 70% of the USA's reserves consists of worthless relics.
I don't think so...
Is there any reasonable expectation from people who know about such matters that China would actually back its currency with gold?
Any chance of a common BRICS currency, backed or not?
Not being glib - genuinely asking.
China cannot manage to keep their own currency stable and you think they want to tie it to gold?
The ONLY place more fucked up than the US is China.
Impossible, they continue to own manufacturing.
First to recover if purchasing resumes, anywhere.
American has their Trayvons, La Raza and narco cartel gangs plus dumb white males who cheer on Trayvon thugs in the NFL, NBA and NCAA while cheering their own white race genocide.
I think China is less fucked than America. I know Russia surely is.
Russia reminds me of America in the 1950s where the public was somewhat literate. The Russians are very bright, they have the resources, the land mass, the balls and they do not put up with political correctness.
mr indelicate; to address your question; an individual calling himself Jim Willie presents an intersting theory along the lines of what you stated; who knows if he is accurate/correct; but it is a fun listen. he has many you tube videos. he is 'pusher' of Hat trick letter.
You are being glib Hans. Nice suit. John Phillps - London, I have two myself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kUUuE_TUn4
I have not listen to Dr. Jim Willie for a while but he is usually pretty correct about most things. He has an old German or Swiss guy who knows the gold market very well.
This gold in London may have been Saudi gold that London and the USA have been stealing. the Saudis are getting the knife in the back now. Why? My guess is their oil fields like the main one (Ghawar) are dying rapidly.
They will steal gold anywhere they can find it.
Since you've mentioned Saudi Arabia, FT.COM is reporting that they have withdrawn $70 billion from western asset managers for their own use. At 30 times leverage, that means 2.1 trillion has been removed from the casinos. Hmmmm.
My guess is the Saudis need that money. One of these days very soon - the shit will hit the fan for the House of Saud.
Their suicidal pushng oil prices lower is blowing up on them. I think their oil fields are dying and they really needed that pipeline through Syria. They promise everything to their populace to buy them off. The Saudi version of the Free Shit Army.
If their oil fields are dying, like I and others think, then the Saudis have been thrown under the bus by the USSA, zio-city of London. If London stole their gold, like Jim Willie says, then the House of Saud are really F'ed.
In the past - they could pick up the phone and get Americans to go die in Yemen. Now they send Saudis to go die which ain't gonna last long. The Saudia in uniform have Yemeni tribal backgrounds.
Maybe it never existed since the time bankers became bankers.
All one really needs to know about gold and silver is that when you have a VW/Corzine/Madoff economy, it's good to have something of value with no counterparty. If you're not worried about promises being kept to you, you don't need gold or silver. And if you're not worried, it probably means nobody owes you squat.
VW is being hit because the USA is sending a message to Germany. Take the 20 million refugees and don't cosy up to Putin and Russia.
VW did not kill 147 people like GM-Obama-UAW with shitty ignitions.
VW was stupid but the diesel regulations are even dumber. they were too cheap to do it correctly like Mercedes and BMW do it.
Maybe Deutschland is being encouraged to buy some more Amerikan debt.
Exactly, If you trust old Yellen, then buy stocks, bonds and hold US Dollars. If you think the fed is out of their damn mind or worse, you would logically hold gold and silver.
Everyone reading ZH shouldn't have a doubt in their mind that the CBs are hammering the gold market into the ground through manipulation. Markets, especially thin ones can be manipulated for a time, but in the end they always revert and overshoot. If you think/know the FED is manipulating the market (clear as day to anyone paying attention, shit they've even admitted it!) then you know that the PM market will overshoot to the upside once the CBs lose control.
Tick tock motherfuckers.
Simple as that.
As someone involved in a business which actually USES gold and silver for product creation instead of for speculation its quite nice the prices are low. The problem is going to be in the future sourcing of these PMs as it all seems to be moving east.
Everybody will have their price. Mine will be denominated in whatever new currency replaces the dollar after the current shitshow ends.
Mine will be denominated in bargain basement prices for commercial real estate.
To me it's irrelevant what N American gold bulls and bears say. The rest of the world demand for physical gold and silver is so compelling that it's a sure bet. The only question is timing but I;m not in a hurry.
I knew I wasn't retarded when I told my Mother to hold onto those shares of Silver Wheaton.
SILVER WHEATON CORP Mining company · silverwheaton.com Silver Wheaton Corp. is a pure play silver mining company, the largest in the business of silver streaming. Wikipedia Stock price: SLW (NYSE) $12.43 -0.10 (-0.80%)Sep 25, 4:03 PM EDT - Disclaimer Headquarters: Vancouver, Canada Founder: Nolan Watson Founded: 2004
I really like that company. They should do very well when the market turns.
Yep.
BTW, I really enjoy your contributions to Z/H.
I just thought I'd take a second, and let you know that you have some good ideas, and people read them. ;-)
Thanks YC, I appreciate it, and likewise I am grateful for your posts as well. Sometimes ZH feels like screaming into a well, but that can be cathartic in itself sometimes.
Both you and YC add a lot to the quality of the verbal exchange here on ZH. Keep up the good work, the both of you!
They were just ordered to pay 353 Million CAD in back taxes.
http://www.streetreport.co/silver-wheaton-corp-nyseslw-received-reassess...
so this all blows up in like 2088?
"In 2014, Russia was the third largest gold miner in the world at 266.2 tonnes, just six tonnes short of Australia in second place and China in first place.
Russian central bank is generally consuming all of Russian gold production and sometimes having to import gold."
With all the focus on the Chinese lowballing their total institutional gold holdings, combined CIC, SAFE and PBOC, this week and the continuing attacks and manipulation of the gold market on Sunday night, the latest large increase in Russia’s gold reserves has gone largely unnoticed and barely covered by commentators – especially the more vocal bearish ones."
The story is not that PBOC and RCB are buying gold. It is that they are buying into gold reserves instead of and with $/£/EUR.
Don't know how one should trust this kind of analysis or does it matter.
Gold so far has no interest from invester community and still in a bear market.
We must be reaching capitulation if the people on ZH are now shit talking gold. The CBs have fucked up markets so bad that the people are actually starting to believe the BS!!!!! I've heard of several people recently who have taken such a beating on gold for the last 7 years that they're now completely exiting their positions. Bad idea in my opinion. Let's see what the winter brings.
There are dumb shits everywhere in America, and most of them only get their news from the socialist jew media.....sources like Dancin With The Stars, and John Stewart.... I always feel more comfortable walking against the flow of the herd.
Judging by your comments and many similiar on ZH, GOLD is still in down trend.
Only when sheep like you got slaughtered, then maybe GOLD will reverse course.
Just become accustomed to saying; China & yuan.
this and that, this and that.
have some of everything, but most of all have guns and food.
peace out brothers
What difference does it make?
I'm not willing to dig up Gold in 38 hrs of work then refine it. Nor am I willing to dig up Silver for $15 bucks? You're joking right?
If you like it, buy it, if not BTFD or another house for rental, but please leave my fucking stack alone it's worthless.
Gold Bitchez......I pick up pennies
Western Governments are so stupid to be following a huge ponzi scheme and they still don't understand that the scam is up.A few years left until the monetary reset and gold will play a major role.You'd have to be a nitwit and a moron to think that the U.S. has any chance in hell of ever coming up with over $200 Trillion in entitlements going forward.The biggest scam that is part of all this is The Fed trying to convince everyone that there's a recovery and that the unemployment figures are low enough to increase interest rates.The con job will keep going by ensless delayuntil the crooks in the U.S. Government very shortlycome up with an act of randomness and The Fed will use it as an excuse for QE4 in order to please all the gangsters running Wall Street.If rates rise they'll collapse the market and bust what's left of all the pension funds in the country,especially local and State.There are about 30 other Cities in the U.S. on the verge of economic collapse that could go into bankruptcy protection because the politicians hollowed out the manufacturing sector to Communist China.In return the Commies bought U.S. debt so that America could keep their wars going.The U.S. Government has shot itself in the foot because Obama is determined to run the deficit to surpass $20 Trillion and the tax base numbers and money coming in for revenue don't add up.They can't afford interest rate increases on the debt.There's no way for them to pay except to have larger deficits which means NIRP and QE4.That's if they can even get foreign countries to buy but some will by printing even more paper (Japan & Europe).They won't stop because the military-industrial complex won't allow it till they are bust.The funny thing is that if you go to China or to Europe and come back to the U.S. and look at the infrastucture you'll immediately notice that America is rapidly becoming a third world country,especially with City schools being the worst.The airports,roads and expanding ghettos of all major cities are hideous.
Kudos to ZH for publishing Koos Jansen. He's an independant voice in the gold space since he started out on his own with no profit motive on his part and he simply continues his research under bullionstar.
Here is why gold prices are so low:
http://michaelekelley.com/2015/07/20/dear-fed-plz-raise-gold-price/
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/are-big-banks-using-derivatives-suppress-bullion-prices/
IF you want to create the illusion of global inflation and a reason to support global commodities stockpiles, you must buy gold..
This may be the biggest reason the PBOC and Russia are buying so much gold at these price levels. The last thing they want is to permit the reality of global deflation to rear it's ugly head..
Scrutinizer
6256 tonnes will vanish in how many years at this rate ?
+
8000 tonnes with Satan America?
I believe China & India are importing @ 2000 tonnes pa