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This Is "Getting Really Ugly, Really Fast": Two Thirds Of Recent Graduates Say US College Education Is A Ripoff
If there was any question about whether college students in the US were getting wise to the fact that their degrees may not be worth the $35K (on average) they’re paying for them, that question was answered earlier this year with one hilarious graduation cap:
Yes, “Game of Loans,” and as the student debt bubble balloons into the trillions, the federal government has come to realize that, to quote Bill Ackman, there’s “no way” students are ever going to pay back all of this debt, which is why the Obama administration is promoting (and we mean explicitly promoting) IBR programs that in many cases ensure former students will have at least a portion of their student debt forgiven thereby guaranteeing taxpayer losses on government higher education loans will run into the tens and probably hundreds of billions of dollars.
Assessing what role students have played in this is akin to asking what role potential homeowners played in the housing bubble. That is, the government has held up certain ideals (i.e. the right to homeownership and the right to pursue post secondary education) as inalienable and so while there’s an extent to which people have to be accountable for the money they borrow, when you pitch these things as being on par with John Locke’s natural rights and then move to effectively subsidize them by either driving interest rates into the ground or passing out trillions in loans to students who you know have no hope of paying it all back, you create a scenario whereby borrowers can then claim they were misled, mistreated, and ultimately defrauded.
That was the case with the housing bubble and, thanks to the fact that today’s college graduates are entering a job market that despite all the rosy rhetoric, is actually nothing more than a bartender creation machine, former students are now looking with disdain at the tens of thousands in student loans they must now figure out how to pay back while bringing in less than the median national yearly income which is itself largely insufficient when it comes to servicing large lines of credit.
It is with all of the above in mind that we bring you the following from WSJ who reports that two thirds of students who graduated in the last nine years and whose debt matches or exceeds the national average do not believe their degree was worth the cost. Here’s more:
Recent college graduates are significantly less likely to believe their education was worth the cost compared with older alumni and one of the main reasons is student debt, which is delaying millennials from buying homes and starting families and businesses.
The insight into the generational divide comes courtesy of the second annual Gallup-Purdue Index, which polled more than 30,000 college graduates during the first six months of this year.
Former Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels created the survey when he became president of Purdue University in 2013 in an effort to better understand the value of a college education from the people who should know best—alumni.
The steep decline in the perception of whether a degree was worth the cost startled Brandon Busteed, Gallup’s executive director for education and workforce development.
Overall, 52% of graduates of public schools “strongly agreed” that their education was worth the expense, compared with 47% of private-school graduates. Among graduates of private for-profit universities, just 26% felt the same.
About two-thirds of college students graduate with debt, with an average load of about $35,000.
According to the Index, only 33% of alumni who graduated between 2006 and 2015 with that amount of debt strongly agreed that their university education was worth the cost.
On the one hand, this suggests that going forward, students may demand some combination of the following three things, i) lower tuition, ii) better coordination between those who design curriculums and employers, and hopefully iii) efforts to create a more robust jobs market characterized by rising wage growth and real opportunity for graduates.
Unfortunately, the more likely outcome will be that demand for higher education will simply dry up, thereby creating an even larger divide between the skills set of America's youth and that of job seekers around the globe. But don't take our word for it, just ask Gallup’s executive director for education and workforce development Brandon Busteed who spoke to The Journal:
“When you look at recent graduates with student loans it gets really ugly, really fast. If alumni don’t feel they’re getting their money’s worth, we risk this tidal wave of demand for higher education crashing down.”
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TOO BAD SO SAD YOU FUCKING PATHETIC MILLENNIALS - DEAL WITH IT RETARDS. YOU BETTER PAY IT BACK TO DOLTS. most gulibile generation ever. No one forced you by gunpoint to go.
Default is a human right, motherfucker. Molon labe.
Man..... sounds like we need immediate and substantial government intervention in the education sector.....
.... oh wait...
Only 2/3 of recent graduates think their college education was NOT worth the $$$?
WTF makes the other 1/3 think it WAS worth it?
I can see the top 1%, whose mommy and daddy paid for them to go to Ivy League Country Club,
but, but, but . . .
1/3 must think that it WAS WORTH IT????
H-1Bitchez.
Don't you know this country was built on serial exploitation of successive waves of (in)voluntary immigrants?
You’d think that student debt was the worst thing facing millennials, its not. Its not high education prices, its high asset prices!!!
I graduated in the mid-70s and I still think that college was a rip-off. It was less expensive then, but I got nothing that I used to build a career and they wasted 4 important years of my life.
College? Bah.
At a highly regarded university where I was teaching they polled the graduating class to get feedback on the college experience. The results were eye-opening to say the least. 90% of the students rated their experience as horrible in terms of social experience, academics, and job preparation value. Many of the handwritten comments were misspelled and grammatically incorrect but were quite clear. The results were flushed into a black hole and absolutely no changes were made. It just reinforced, among the huge number of bureaucrats on campus, why they hated the students so much. Gee.
"90% of the students rated their experience as horrible in terms of social experience, academics, and job preparation value."
Yeah, I forgot the bogus social experience. I think I regressed relative to H.S.
The whole purpose of the exercise seemed to be social engineering, which I resisted and resist to this day.
Needless to say, no alumni contributions from me.
The other 1/3 are unemployed STEM petroleum engineer grads out looking for a job; too busy to answer any questionaires.
Moral of the story: drop out and become a rapper like Kanye.
I suppose I was fortunate to have gone to college in a place where the drinking age was 18 and political correctness did not make it mandatory to get a signed affadavit of approval to touch a girl while dancing with her. That was 1968, and we didn't worry about student loans when we graduated, we just worried about being drafted and sent to a location that included many incidents involving high velocity concentrated lead emissions flying through the air. Unlike some of you, I found the college experience a great experience aside from the educational aspects. Much of that I attribute to having joined a fraternity and living in a place mostly devoid of college control with several dozen like-minded students. What I learned therein has served me well throughout my subsequent life. I doubt that college life would be nearly so enriching nowadays. As for the education itself, my knowledge of physics (BS) was severely depleted after four years serving Uncle Sam (joined USAF to avoid being drafted into the Marines or Army) but of the five Physisc majors graduating from my fraternity in 1968, only two stayed in hard science, one went into psychology, another into journalism concentrating on astronomy, and one made a career in MIS-Information Technology.
The more I think about it, the more I think this country really has gone to shit.
Welcome to the club, I also got a BS in physics, but only because I'm just old enough to have pre-dated the wave of computor science programs which just sweaped across the country. (The Math/Physics depart took care of the "Nerdy" future computer science types, the Business department took care of those who were math impared). It has served me well. I Remember one of the old professors saying "you will learn how to learn, or you will wash out fast". This has proved to be one of the more valuable skills I picked up from the experience, IT is a lifelong treadmill, and if you don't keep learning/staying on top of things, it WILL throw you off before you are ready...).
I am happy with the stem degree I got in the early 80s. The price was right, and they taught me to solve complex problems. I can honestly say I use it every day, even though my career is unrelated.
The social benefits were excellent as well. The people I associated with are still the smartest and nicest I've ever known. Going out into the "real" world after college felt like a cold splash into idiocracy.
Like most things in life, what you get depends on what you put in. If you go there to party and fuck women, it is an expensive waste of time. If you get a soft degree -- ditto -- you can just read about that shit free in any library.
If you left high school and can't write correctly, that is your own fault. It is your life, and if you want to be mediocre -- your loss. Makes it easy for the rest of us to compete with you.
You were the last generation to have a decent college experience. My experience was all PC, Feminism, liberalism, Feminism, left-wing ideology, and Feminism. Not one woman at that school was date-able.
You were the last generation to have a decent college experience. My experience was all PC, Feminism, liberalism, Feminism, left-wing ideology, and Feminism. Not one woman at that school was date-able.
It's government subsidized religion. Everything is bullshit. To know the truth you have to lose your mind. HAHA!
I went to Commuter U. I got one of those surveys back in the early 90's.
I explained that none of what they asked applied to me.
I didn't live on campus, I had a home with a wife and two boys.
I didn't party.
I did join a fraternity, but only because it directly applied to my major and was a source of recruiting. I didn't get out much, I think I went to two events where I was already the odd duck at 35, one was a 'pool party' were no one got in the pool, the other was at some kid's house who pleaed for me to come, so my wife and I went. We left an hour later (the only guests at that point).
I took a double/triple load each quarter and had no patience for bullshit from Commuter U, professors or the rest of the fucking students. I had frequent, in class, arguments over 'facts' being taught in the politically correct classes, challenged some of the preconceptions taught on how to make sales, and told one business law professor he was so full of shit he needed to wipe his eyes. (He privately admitted he was wrong the next class, but told me to tone it down or he'd fail me. The class noticed my silence the rest of the quarter with interest.)
In my three years of college, AA/AS/BS and most of an MBA, I only had ONE actual instructor thatshowed any kind of interest in her students...that was my core accounting instructor, Acct1-Acct4, four quarters of core accounting.n She meet us on Saturdays, bring cookies and shit, go back over the class notes, and explain what it was like in CPA firms. (Same lady that gave me her phone number after she saw me with the old guy).
College is primarily an advanced indoctrination center that sucks shitloads of money from your pocket. Most of the professors, instructors, are absolute, fucking, morons. (That said, I really felt bad for our waitress at some fancy restaurant who was all over the place taking orders, covering other tables, bringing refills...nothing ever written down...and I asked her how she was so effective when the other waitresses were buried in cellphones and applying make-up. She said, "Oh, I'm a Professor of Physics at Commuter U. They cut my hours, so I'm doing anything I can these days." I tipped her $100.)
However, there are just enough nuggets of actual information, IF YOU DIG FOR THEM, that you can go from steam cleaning carpets and hanging wallpaper at $6/hour, to Division Controller at $50K overnight.
Now, I'm a Corporate Controller for fifty entities and my position is relatively secure. We're privately owned, most of our debt is fixed at practically zero interest and our private owners have pretty deep pockets, this business funds their family.
To be clear: Commuter U = California State University-San Bernardino
With a triple load, I ended with a 3.666 GPA (didn't do so well on the bullshit, politically correct, male bashing 101, corporate bashing 101, religion bashing 101, or white bashing 101 classes. Basically told the professors to give me a D because I wasn't buying a word of their bullshit) and about $7k in debt. Which was paid off long, long ago.
I have thought of going back to study economics and a few related courses but I would run into the same thing. I've been around the block, around the world and have family in Commie countries. I'm no starry-eyed 20-something.
I think if I did not get thrown out of a leftist class I would be ashamed of myself.
You went to college to get things to build a career!? That was seriously dumb.
I went to college for the girls, the beer and the parties. On the side I picked up a wealth of interesting but relatively useless information which had been invaluable at dinners, parties and in social networking.
When I was an adult, that is after I had squandered my entire youth on good time, I went to professional school and obtained a license to steal. I obtained several different licenses to steal.
Too bad about you. You should have taken that job Wal-Mart offered you when you were seventeen. You might be an under-assistant department manager at one of its many fine retail outlets by now.
Ah, so you work on Wall Street now? How's your buds at Goldman doing these days?
Macon Richardson
It was smart guys like you who thought they were going to party their way through college that ended up at Wal-Mart.
LoL Maltese. Actually, I went to college part time, focusing on areas that interested me like economics & business.
I own my own company and employ others in my community, pay taxes and own our home. Please, enlighten us on what accomplishments you have done.
College proper granted me access to powerful laboratory equipment that I would never otherwise had access to. Living in the dormatory freshman year was an adolescent dream, and I made some lifelong friends along the way.
Otherwise, a waste. The most tragic part is that I actually paid my own way. From paper route money to jobs all throughout highschool and college. Hindsight with what that money could have done is a terror. My education was nothing that I couldn't recieve from a library or online. I studied Biochemistry & Molecular Biology, and the only thing that credentialed me to do was wash glassware, continue going to school, or perhaps torture a ferret for BigPharma. After several different careers, I went back and got an A.A.S. in Code Welding. Probably one of the most important and potent decisions of my life. I'm not even a welder anymore. The doors that career openned to me though...astounding.
The message - peasants don't need education.
Why is it, to misquote Ringo Starr "Everything that the Government touches turns to shit?". Education has failed to embrace new technology because there has been no incentive to do so. Lectures are a total inefficient waste of time. Record them then repeat online for future classes. Study groups and/or tutorial sessions held bi-weekly would supplement. That alone would allow substantial reductions in faculty (Blasphemy!!), most of whom at present are tenured. Most course work could also be done and supervised online for further cost reductions in faculty. So long as the Government keeps throwing money at the problem, Colleges will continue to increase fees. At least they could put a cap on the amount available for each loan?
Most clueless post of the day.
Tenured professors don't do the teaching, and their numbers make up a TINY faction of the total uni head count now. The teaching is actually done by a vast army of less than minimum-wage paid slave adjunct professors. I know one medium sized non-profit uni that has ONE SINGLE tenured professor in the entire accounting department, and the rest of the professors are slave-adjuncts.
All of the money is going to building palace-like campuses, sports complexes, and another vast army of OVERPAID administrators who shuffle paper all day and enforce 1000's of pages of bullshit mandates and accredation rules on the faculty and students.
On-line teaching is shit. It does not work nearly as well as in-person face to face classes where you can interact with the other students and ask questions in real-time. Maybe for bullshit classes like the 101's English, History and maybe some electives it's ok, but for real subjects it sucks. The harder the subject, the better education you will get in person.
If you don't believe on-line teaching is shit go find some uni of phoenix fuckers to converse with.
All of these above stated facts are backed by research and articles, just do some digging.
So true. Our society is falling apart because societal wealth is increasingly diverted to enrich cartels of administrators and executives, in government, in education, in healthcare and in private industry. Millions of paper-pushing leeches get wealthy because they are part of the inter-connected web of the power structure of this country.
Meanwhile the nation of the rest of us is mired in a permanent no-growth, no-opportunity mode. The new normal is to pay everybody as little as possible and constantly hire, fire and shuffle, driving wages down at each step.
It's called "Feudalism."
We just don't have Dukes and Duchesses anymore. Now they're executives. And instead of the Great Chain of Being, we have Org charts. We still justify it all with religion, though 1000 years ago the religion in question was Christianity, and today it's Finance. And it's still true that you can tell who the king is by the fact he's the only one who hasn't got shit all over him.
Oh, aren't you a cute li'l baby! Now I'll mush up that knowledge and scoop some in a spoon and fly it right into you pretending like it's an aeroplane because you're utterly incapable of digesting knowledge any other way.
Once one knows how to read, books, exercises, access to any required equipment and some self-directed exploration and practice can do wonders. Heavy face-to-face over-sight and hand-holding should only be used when needed, with the benefit that only those that need it have to pay for it.
What you're failing to realize, even though philipat already said it, is that government is the problem. You're just pointing out symptoms. The problem is that government is propping up an out-dated and failed education system. If everyone who wanted to go to school had to pay for it with their own money, that failed system would collapse to a large degree. Instead big-gov just continues to direct ever more resources at it, further inflating yet another stupid bubble. The symptoms you point out literally could not exist in their current state without all of the resources government is artificially driving into the education system.
(People are the other side of the problem though. They let government do this, many even thinking it's a good idea. They pay far less attention to what would actually be a good investment and what would not because government makes it easy to do so -- the bill at the end is a bit too out-of-sight/out-of-mind for many. Plus the government and teachers lie to them.)
Pheonix may or may not suck - I don't have any experience with them. (And Phoenix students are a self-selected group. Plus, "Pheonix bad" => "on-line inherently bad" is not sound logic.) What I do know is that I taught myself to program a computer from a book when I was in grade-school, at a time when absolutely no one in my life even knew how to use a computer much less program one (and that includes the teacher whose class room the computer sat in). And that learning was not only a useful thing to do, and highly enjoyable, but also the most eye-opening experience and a far more efficient use of my time than any class I have ever attended my whole life. And the book I learned from? It wasn't even anything special - just the book that came with the computer.
Individualized learning, where one can spend time where they need it and not waste time where they don't, is inherently more efficient than bullshit "no kid left behind" class rooms. When I was finally able to take an actual computer class (highschool), it was a pretty horrid experience - constantly being told how to not solve problems becase "we haven't covered that yet" - constantly having to redo work because my solutions were "too advanced". That same shit continued to a lesser extent right through graduate school. In one case we were supposed to solve a problem with a certain set of computer resources and have that problem be solved as quickly as possible. I had the best times in the whole damn class, and by a good margin too. My solution was "disqualified" (scored a big fat 0) because I didn't use the resources the way they had in mind. (And this was at one of the top computer science departments in the US.)
Anyways, my point is that given a decent core set of reading material, video material, (computer-based) interactive problems, reviews and quizzes, a system where not all material is for everyone (e.g. if someone has a problem in some area the problem they are having can be diagnosed and then suitable supplemental material provided to them, material other students don't spend time on because they don't need to) - that would be a vastly better core system. Students would achieve greater mastery at a faster rate and at much reduced expense. Human teachers would only be needed (*) when a student "runs off the rails" - hits a problem that the current computer-based expert-system can't sufficiently/confidently diagnose and deal with. (And such teacher experiences could be documented and used to further improve the expert-systems over time.)
(*: This obviously isn't suitable for all subjects. E.g., you are not going to teach someone how to play a musical instrument well this way, nor is a computer going to be able to judge a student's written prose for anything besides technical aspects. But it should do well with STEM subjects and for a good fraction of the load in most other subjects.)
Of course, most teachers are not going to be suggesting anything of the sort, and would likely argue quite strongly that this would never work - because it would put the vast majority of them out of work. And they have their public unions and make a big fuss anytime they want to wield government force to go their way (all of those symptoms you say are bad? they're "for the children"!), so good luck in ever escaping the current education system (at least until the whole greater system collapses).
+1. all good points.
The question is Why? & How? Marxists took over the American University system beginning at Columbia in the 1930's. Their 2nd Gen acolytes formed a nomenklatura through control of the Teacher's College, Journailsm School, and of course, Sociology: the Science of Socialism. Their 3rd generation has metastasized into an intellectual politburo spread throughout "elite" universities across the country.
They don't have a problem with Socialism, they preach it. And since there's not much market demand for nation-wrecking, culture-degrading parasitism: bigger budgets, bigger debts, and bigger public subsidies are the prime method to keep their Ivory Tower Soviet going.
Of course there's better ways to educate people, that's just not what they have in mind.
While most can't be saved until the system collapses (and probably not even then), I think there are some opportunities where an improved education process would be welcomed - mainly homeschoolers. And maybe more families would decide to go that route once there is proven automated assistance that keeps it from being so much work for parents along with on-line access to subject-specialists if/when needed to alleviate fears the parent may have that neither they nor the pre-made materials + computer will be good enough at teaching certain material. There are also some limited cases where traditional teachers would likely accept it (mostly cases where it doesn't displace any jobs -- helping students do stuff that they traditionally do on their own, or are supposed to but maybe don't [like practice]).
I'll leave out any optimism about the greater public taking notice and acting though, even if such an improved process is created and does well. They are just so "good" at ignoring the realities of the world around them that such optimism seems quite foolish.
EDIT: I didn't explicitly address your question because you were talking about higher education while homeschooling is normally for grade-school and sometimes highschool. But I think the current skew away from homeschooling higher education is due to one main issue and one side issue, the main one being that parents generally aren't qualified to teach at that level (especially for subjects where they did not themselves receive a higher education) and the potential side issue being accreditation. These problems can be dealt with under the kind of learning system I was describing, so higher education could become an available frontier for homeschooling. Just thinking back to the kinds of classes I had for my own post-graduate degree, I don't really see any problems with this approach. The biggest hurdle would actually be expense -- preparing materials and expert systems has a cost which would have to be amortized over far fewer students when you're talking about courses that only a small fraction of the user base takes. (On the other hand, the user base for higher education courses might be larger than for the K-8 stuff if it can be made significantly cheaper than a traditional university, whereas for K-8 a lot of parents are sending their kids to "free" public school so they don't have to pay for a baby sitter.)
Cheated my daughter in law through business accounting then economics. Professor was, as usual, an idiot. He recorded videos of meaningless lectures regarding the material he was using, gave cryptic references about what he was looking for, and sent out tests and exams that had no context to what had been covered. Then he'd chide his students for not understanding his mysticism and becoming one with accounting or economics.
I'm a twenty year Controller and I had no idea what he was on about. But I knew how to help her get an "A" in both classes. (She did make me rewrite the term paper to look 'blonde', though.)
after 3 months of extensive job hunting for sales jobs after getting my degree. I received 3 offers...all commission only telemarketing gigs. I could have worked as a solar salesman making cold calls walking the streets. There are plenty of jobs if you want to work for nothing.
But thinking makes my head hurt.
Try making a living as a Debit Insurance Salesman. Wlking house to house, collecting weekly premiums, and making sales between the houses...day after day after day.
I once was in the Million Dollar RoundTable for the company, Independent Life, was salesman of the year, and made the stupendous sum of $25,000 dollars for that year. Then they fired me, the manager took over my route, and started to collect the commissions I had built up.
1/3 made a decent degree in hard sciences and not a MSc in BS
The 1/3 or 1/2 of graduates going into the Government sector think it was worth it.
Send them to debtors prison or better yet euthanize them, after all they are pro-choice anyway and enjoy the killing of babies. Time to reap what they sow. Fine, you can kill teh University staff along with them.
Hyperbolic liftoff!
I understand why religious folk hate abortions. Less sheep, and fewer children for priests to molest.
I've never seen someone breastfeed a zygote. That would be something.
Do you understand why an atheist like me finds abortion to be abhorrent and the practitioners to be repulsive individuals with whom I would prefer not to interact?
You're entitled to have any feeling in the world about any thing in the world - but, do *you* understand that it is fundamental to libertarianism that government has no right - none - to tell anyone what to put in or take out of their own body?
And neither, by the way, do *you*.
libertarianism is retarded. Let's kill babies and have sex with men, I think I'll stay away thanks.
Don't know much about it, do you?
Learning about liberty is great. I love that chapter in Rose Wilder Lane's The Discovery of Freedom in which she discusses the contributions of the Muslim world to modern libertarian principles.
https://mises.org/library/discovery-freedom
?
Pretty sure the practice of & words like, dhimmi, jizya and taqiyya didn't come from a Libertarian...lol.
Jus sayin ;-)
Yeah, but you didn't write "one of the most influential books of the 20th century." You do have the ability to read it however. Have you given that a try? Robert LeFevre wouldn't give you a bum steer.
I tell ya what, point me to a nice Christian church in Mecca so I can have some (ahem) peace & quiet & I'll give it read and report back ;-)
I am sure she might have a different opinion watching whats going on today. Crucifictions, executions, decapitaions, lit on fire in cages etc.....yep real libertarian stuff.
Folks sure can jump through a lot of hoops just to avoid reading a book.
I think it was the reference to Muslims being somewhat Libertarian that threw everyone off.
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/islamic_destruction_of_hindu_temples.htm
Ok, but it's Discovery of Freedom 2...I'd prefer an original.
I used to be one. So I know how foolish and evil some of them are. I renouce my libertariamism. I like Ron Paul, sadly most of the young liberarians are not like ron paul. Ron Paul was Pro-life and anti-weed smoking althoug he belives it should be legalized. He did not smoke it himself.
If you've renounced your love of liberty because you don't like how some other individuals use or misuse their liberty then you never understood the concept of liberty to begin with.
God's liberrty is what we should strive for, not this bastarization libertarians came up with. Gay marriage, drug culture and killing babies.
Bruce Jenner says he's a Republican and a conservative Christian, not a libertarian.
Well, he also say's he's a woman ;-)
Nice one.
But it still isn't liberty's fault.
I couldn't resist the opening.
Oh man, I think I did it again ;-)
You're in it deep, now.
He wishes.
Liberty is a lady who stands with one arm above her head for hours at a time.
I'm a founding father constitutionalist. Thanks though. A poltical atheist.
I'm a self owning individual currently enslaved in body but not in mind. But you can call me Billy.
Enslaved, but rebelling, and fomenting other slaves to join me.
So you're a statist, then?
I don't like people having children and my having to pay for them in some form or fashion. I'm not going to reproduce. I don't see the need.
Why should I foot the bill for their schooling? Their daycare? Their medical coverage?
You know why? Because we're supposed to be a civil society, set up to care for one another.
Maybe that doesn't wash today, but it damn well should.
Man, you had something happen to you that cannot be fixed. I wonder if an aborted baby got gay married and took away your gun while sporting a "Clinton/Gore" campaign button?
Read above thanks.
You say you're not going to reproduce. You don't see the need. If only your parents had had such goals.
Seems you've mixed Libertarian with Progressive Liberal. A common mistake for a mental midget.
Sadly they are not that far off.
You don't have a Nolan Chart, do you?
I've taken it - says I'm a libTARDarian but I'm not. I'm more of a Christian Anarchist
The point was that libertarian and left-wing occupy different positions on the chart, specifially, libertarians oppose state power while the left-wing welcomes state power.
You truly are a new, exciting flavor of dumbass, aren't you?
best laugh i've had all day
@Hitlery_4_Dictator: "God's liberrty" (sic)
So you would want to forcibly prevent others from doing what they want even if it doesn't effect you? Would you put them in prison simply because you don't like them doing whatever you happen to object to? I hate to think what you might do to us atheists..., the death penalty?
And by the way, a fertilized egg is not a "baby".
A fertilized egg is not a baby.
Is it alive? If so then its a life.
If a fertilized egg isn't alive then there's no need to kill it with an abortion. Why worry about an inanimate object?
Have you ever, unknowingly, cracked open a chicken egg that was fertilized?
The change, in just a few days, would take your appetite away.
That's how I view abortion. The change, in just a few days, is profound enough that it's a waste of life. Just like dumping that fertilized chicken egg down the sink or in the trash. You just killed for no reason at all.
In libertarianism you are not constrained in your beliefs and only constrained in practice when it comes to either community norms or harm to others. You do not have to like gay marriage, drugs or abortion. You do not have to make a gay weeding cake for someone. However, the bakery next door is also free to make only gay wedding cakes. This is the essence of peaceful coexistance and the Left even screws this up. They make gays a protected class so that you get a discimination lawsuit or state prosecution if you do not agree.
In my younger days I had great disdain for fags and queers and carpet munchers.
As I got older I realized that the fags, queers and carpet munchers had no direct effect on my life. Nor, essentially on anyone elses, other that PDA's, that I'm still learning to ignore.
Now, I'm at the point where I really don't give a shit where you get your jollies, as long as it's with a consenting partner, it's none of my fucking business (though I privately think you're totally fucked up). I've known some really great fags, queers and carpet munchers through my life; yes, I think they're odd, but I'm odd in different ways so I'm a lot more accepting of the weird.
I know what I just typed sounds anti-homo, but I AM a straight guy that doesn't give a shit what you're doing, though I still have some discomfort over it in my own mind. (I can't imagine living that sort of life.)
As to others that don't want to cater to this line of thinking, I'm perfectly fine with that also. Everyone has the right to decide who they want to conduct business with, in any form or fashion, for any reason whatsoever. If someone thinks I'm so odd that they no longer want to conduct business with me, that's their right. I can not force them to take my business, I can find someone else.
That's what's fundamentally wrong with the wedding cake bullshit.
We are very similar.
My problem with leftist weirdos is not what they want to do with same-sex partners, latex or even their atheism. It is that they demand you accept it and even like it. It is not enough to live and let live. You WILL make them a cake and not say anything against them. Anything not 100% supportive of their agenda and view of the world is homophobic (as if we are afraid of them) and a form of discrimination and bigotry. When they do their parades they are blatantly sexual and purposely offensive. It is more than acceptance for the militant and dominant wing.
This is the problem when they get power. They mean to actually focus that power on all who are not on their side the way they demand. They are kind of like political ISIS and often eat their own. Look at what Matt Damon just said. It was completely harmless on the topic and his words were almost considered dangerous. Now, he is one of the biggest libs out there.
In another century or two maybe we will get it right. Wish I could live long enough to see it.
and do *You* understand that the little guy might be entitiled to that same right of putting things in or out of his body but cant defend himself? You disgust me and around me you will be treated exactly like the common assed murderer that you are because you don't want to take responsiblity for your actions or lack of self control or even an ounce of prevention: they give condoms away for free.
thats what I feel about it and thats my right.
Downvoted you because you've got it backwards. Geez the feminists really have infultrated all quarters. You say "..you don't want to take responsiblity for your actions or lack of self control or even an ounce of prevention: they give condoms away for free"
Well *heres* thing thing. It's her fucking body and she's always dripping wet when I enter her so who doesn't have the self control? She doesn't. It's not mine or any other males responsibility to decide what does or doesn't go into her body. Just as it's not the governments to decide what does or doesn't go in anyones body.
Look at it this way. If you were capable of reproducing, and you know damn the ramifications that certain actions lead to, would you expect it to be *someone elses* responsibilty to look after and take responsibility for your actions?
Women have gained so much of a 'best of both worlds' advantage it's beyond a joke these days.
You're entitled to have any feeling in the world about any thing in the world - but, do *you* understand that it is fundamental to libertarianism that government has no right - none - to tell anyone what to put in or take out of their own body?
And neither, by the way, do *you*.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious truth in a self righteous manner. Hope you got your jollies but don't think that you've provided any kind of moral cover for the slaughtering one's own children.
And don't forget that liberty demands that I not be required to pay for killing of children by either medical procedure or by military arms.
Wow, something brought out the
Anti-Abortionists
out of the woodwork tonight?
Blood Moon?
If one can't see the repugnance in killing one's own offspring then I really don't know what more can be said.
Yeah. Weird ain't it. Natural selection finds it truly astonishing. So do I.
I don't get the "when does life start?" bullshit. These fuckers happily abort babies 5 minutes before they would be born. They stick a spike into the back of their necks to kill them if they have to. They harvest their organs. But a woman must e allowed to do anything she wants, cuz it's her body, don'cha know.
Interesting that the muzzies have a take on it, abortion is allowed up until the foetus has a heartbeat (about 12 weeks, I recall). Think about that one. It sounds... almost rational. A bit more rational than out murderous fucking morals and laws.
These anti-ProChoicers are disgusting indeed Crisismode. I cannnnnnnot stand them.
This issue of the woman's right to choose is the crux of my Progressive Libertarianism. Soon I will launch the inaugural issue of my new effort: The Journal of Progressive Libertarian Thought, and the lead article will cover that very topic.
Then I'll get started on the Gun Regulation debate.
I have no desire to force my will upon others. I simply find those who kill their children to be reprehensible while you find those who understand that killing children is a bad idea to be reprehensible.
No.
You WANT to FORCE
your ideas about
what women do with their bodies
Upon Everybody.
Are you a Muslim Imam?
Dictate how women should dress?
Keep them out of schools?
Barefoot and pregnant?
You are disgusting.
But I don't want to do any of those things. In fact, I think that you should feel free to kill each and every member of your dysfunctional breed. Feel better?
Billy the Poet, all I’m saying is that a woman should have the freedom to experience the pleasure of sex without worrying about trifling consequences such as pregnancy.
All I’m saying is that a man and a man or a woman and a woman should have the freedom to have their wedding cake decorated by anyone of their choosing.
All I’m saying is that everyone should have the right to walk down a street or sit at a desk in a classroom or go to a movie theater and not have a gun-wielding maniac spray them with a shower of lead.
All I’m saying is that everyone should have the freedom to enjoy full medical coverage when we come down with a devastating illness.
These are just a few of the freedoms in the NWO.
Liberty is the freedom to be secure in my person and in my psyche.
— from the conscience of a Progressive Libertarian
…regardless of how it may affect the security of anyone else’s “person and psyche”, ’cause MINE’S more important since I’M a Progressive Libertarian.
.
Pleasurable sex is not a right. You are major league fucked up.
all I’m saying is that a woman should have the freedom to experience the pleasure of sex without worrying about trifling consequences such as pregnancy.
A man should also have that right. If a woman has the final say on whether a child will be born then no man should ever have to pay child support because the birth of a child is not his descion. Try selling that to the feminists.
All I’m saying is that a man and a man or a woman and a woman should have the freedom to have their wedding cake decorated by anyone of their choosing.
Is that true for all professions? Should a prostitute, for example, be required to have sexual relations with any individual regardless of appearance, gender or health status? If not, why not?
Should you be required to work for anyone willing to pay you? Suppose I offered to pay you to stand on a street corner with a pro-life sign. Should you be required to so because I have a right to have anyone I chose hold such a sign?
All I’m saying is that everyone should have the right to walk down a street or sit at a desk in a classroom or go to a movie theater and not have a gun-wielding maniac spray them with a shower of lead.
All individuals have such a right and some choose to exercise that right by keeping and bearing arms.
All I’m saying is that everyone should have the freedom to enjoy full medical coverage when we come down with a devastating illness.
Suppose someone is hiking in the wilderness and gets bitten by a snake. Is the simple fact that medical help is too far away an unfortunate circumstance or has the snake bite victim's rights been violated? The point being that your rights are something that can't be taken from you but not something that others are required to do for you.
These are just a few of the freedoms in the NWO.
Liberty is the freedom to be secure in my person and in my psyche.
— from the conscience of a Progressive Libertarian
There's a /sarc tag implicit in those final lines, isn't there?
... freedom to experience the pleasure of sex...
Goal #5: Achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls
... wedding cake...
Goal #10: Reduce inequality within and among countries
... shower of lead...
Goal 11: Make cities and human settlements inclusive, safe, resilient and sustainable
... full medical coverage...
Goal #3: Ensure healthy lives and promote well-being for all at all ages
... NWO...
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-03/2030-agenda-month-un-launches-b...
I am, therefore I shall have.
…that’s what “E pluribus unum” means in English, right?
Libertarianism is about being able to do what you want to do...as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Clearly abortion DOES NOT fall into that category since the baby cannot speak for themselves yet. Someone has to take a stand to protect the newly created human's rights.
I'm all for the Philip K. Dick approach...
I am 100% confident we could retroactively abort a large number of congress critters for their inability to do "higher math"
People who kill their own children tend to feel very guilty about it, so they demand that everyone else give them moral support so they won't feel so much regret about their past and current life choices.
TPTB give them all the rights in the world to do abort their children, but that's not enough! We ALSO need to be giving them all sorts of extra help in society, 'cos people who kill their own children are so traumatized by it that they generally need tons of counseling or otherwise they become alcoholics (or worse).
... Obviously, this is all very useful for TPTB: not only does the population get reduced somewhat, but better yet, the traumatized parents and siblings get to flail about afterwards, trying to make noise about their issue, as defined and presented by TPTB's media.
How long will it be before Christian bakers can be fined for not making "I Had an Abortion!" cakes?
About as long as it will take for"
athiest bakers
to be arrested for not
making cakes that say
"Teh Pope is mah
Lhord and Mastah!!"
I'm an atheist and I certainly wouldn't bake such a cake. But then again it's the shemales and such who have been given so called rights at the expense of everyone else and not the Pope. There is no law saying that the Pope can use any school locker room he wants.
Right now. Oregon bakery is fined $135k and similar in Colorado. See, the Left makes everything a zero-sum game. If gays gain liberty someone else loses theirs. Idiots...or maybe not. Power is their game.
Liberty also dictates that I shouldn't have to pay to support a woman who has gotten herself knocked up, when it was her choice to bang Chad Thundercock 10 ways to Sunday. Chad shouldn't be responsible either - she's the one that willing allowed him to enter her body (rape aside of course).
If you're body was capable of getting pregnent, and it occured, well it occured because you chose to allow the action to take place. It's your body after all.
Would you go around blaming someone else for it, expect them to pay, expect government to pay? It was your action! You said yes!
There are plenty that believe that abortion is infringing on the rights of another human by killing them off.
Everyone I know who is pro- baby murder has already been born.
I don't give a stuff either way - each to their own.. but your argument falls down in that if one isn't born then they will not know they have never been born, so the whole thing is moot.
Along with the overly emotive language used whenever this issue is brought up, what concerns me is why isn't the whole "I should be able to do what I want with my body" thing expanded into other areas of life? There's always an agenda of some kind when the media decides to jump on a story.
"I should be able to do what I want with my body"
Have to agree with you, I drink, smoke, and sit on my ass (most times).
Not a good combination when I took up smoking at 10, drinking at 16 and sitting on my ass at 45.
I've accomodated by realizing that, yes, my smoking is offensive to many and now go outside. As to my drinking, it's all done at home, so fuck everyone else (except for drunken posts on ZH), and as for sitting on my ass. I'd make a remarkable sniper when TSHTF, I'm a deadeye for a mile (vision adjusted) and can sit on my ass for days.
As to others that want to imbibe in things I don't, such as the weed, drugs, or other vices. I'm fine with it until you become a public menace. Do your thing and leave others alone. Or some sniper-type, like me, will take you out.
Fuck you and the horese you rode in on... The fucking Millennials didn’t start the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the fucking Fed, Vietnam, and countless other major fucks up and trillions in debt... THOSE HAPPENED ON YOUR WATCH OLD MAN!!! Now it is going to be the Millennials that deal with the fucking mess while your rotten ass enjoyed the golden years of American Imperialism. Again FUCK U and the horse you rode in on, biased motherfucker. Apparently your parents didn't teach you to not generalize or label, but judge a man based on his deeds and character irrespective of age, culture, religion, or color.
As a mellenial who worked his ass off - went to school full time while working full time - paid all debt and by age 21 held a VP title at a major bank (I know I know, fuck the banks) and set up non-profit orgs to help the homeless vets & their pets, I give you a hearty big FUCK YOU.
LOL old man I'm 37 son. Come get you some.
Crap you're younger than me. Grow up then.
How 'bout it then you wanna try out Scooby for a few rounds bitchez! I'll take on all 3 of you at once. Come'on bitchez!
I'll teach you college boys about The Bite Club.
http://www.1888goodwin.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/dog-bite.jpg
Lmaoooo EVEN WORSE!!! The batshit craziness of the last 20 years all happened on your watch and your didn’t do shit!!! I can spin your argument the very same way you are blaming the millennials. The truth is most have been brainwashed. Whether you are a baby boomer or a millennial we have all been lied to. Rather than being such a divisive cocksucker how about you recognize that we all have to take responsibility for this shit and try to make a difference.
First of all you have no idea what I have done to change things, wrote books, gave speeches, got involved in the political process, protested, voted with my feet and dollars, talked to everyone I see about what's going on. You know how many retarded meillenals just said evyerthing was fine? LOL screw them
My point is, it is not a millennial phenomenon. This disease of ignorance has infected the whole populations. The funny part is in my world mostly millennials understand the evils of the Fed, it is the baby boomers who still wave the flag and scream USA USA! At the top of their lungs when they watch a football match.
Well, I can't argue with you there, anyone who watches sports should be ashamed of themselves.
You're 3 years off from the debateable millennial generation 1981 boundry. You're a fucking lunatic.
+1
Some of these old, fascist coots can't help themselves. They long for "good old days" that only existed in their vapid minds.
I would like sound money and sound markets to shore up a sound economy and sound pricing structures.
Unfortunately the crazies inpolitics and banking won't allow it. I am not upset with any particular group - I would like a fair shot at the boomers and x'ers in politicss and the banks though, when the young bucks get in and do the same thing, I'd like to take a big swing at them too.
Equal opportunity ass kickings.
"by age 21 held a VP title at a major bank"
You mean you worked in the mail room?
"Major banks" dish out the "VP" title to anyone who has the capacity to hold a business card in their hand.
Impressed?
Not.
You are a swiney little braggart with the brains of a turtle and the spine of a worm.
Wow, you're a little stressed out.
You're special, which means you should be wearing a helmet and a weighted vest if you aren't already. I'm surprised you're not typing in all caps.
Or they could fight a Mideast war for their education debt forgiveness. Kind of a reverse GIBill. The edumakated ones make good officers
Multinationals would love to have the US Congress and Senators create debtor prisons and corporations could employ the school debtors as a cheap labor source.
At prison labor rates cheaper than China a new source of lower cost labor.
This is probably getting many CEOs thinking of even larger bonuses with creating debtor work prisons.
No, they were just told by everyone they trusted and looked up to that they should go to college. And those people did and were successful. Don't expect 18yo kids coming out of the current no child left behind school system to make informed choices when literally everyone they're trusting is lying to them and fucking them over.
This is just one more way the Fed, government, and banks fucked the country.
The irony is in the real world demand crash = price crash. In this fucked up Fed money-printing world, that won't happen.
Plus add to this all the property tax districts made to support these schools, where the tax is collected and more than half goes straight to union pension funds. Big fucking surprise tuition in higher there, too.
The entire system is going to choke on itself, and it couldn't happen to a better group of people. And it has nothing to do with millenials, and everything to do with the greedy fucks that will sell out their children, grandparents and neighbors while devaluing everyone's money. I just pray that the decisionmakers are forced to live in the world they created, as that will be justice.
When these morons want food when the system crashes I'll be ready for them.
Seek:
'The Storm Makers' ...Why do humans abuse each other so much just to get rich? I often wonder why our govt set up by the people for the people, does the exact opposite of protecting the people.
2/3 college students think it's a rip off but 75% don't even know where Germany is on a map. And 75% of college grads also are unable to multiply 13x75 long hand.
I worked in HR for awhile and it amazes me these kids were graduated from 8th grade!
... 75% don't even know where Germany is on a map. And 75% of college grads also are unable to multiply 13x75 long hand.
I think that's kind of proof it's a ripoff, is it not? That a college will accept $100K in tuition from these students and send them out with a degree (which now means nothing) with that level of non-performance?
To turn it around, it wouldn't be a rip-off if the college refused to accept the student's money due to them not meeting academic minimums, or to see to it that they graduated with not just these basic skills but actual career-specific skils suitable to their major -- and did so at a cost that meant the student would see a net financial benefit from the degree. But that's not at all what happens -- the schools hit taxpayers up for money, hit corporations and non-profits up for money, collect tuitions that are many multiples more than they did 20 years ago, and delivers unemployable, talentless drones drowing in debt. For non-STEM majors it's almost certainly a ripoff, and it's well on its way to being a ripoff for STEM majors as well. (Just read an article last week that for the average MD, their school costs combined with the already higher operational costs have made that career path have a negative ROI!)
When your major is stupid crap like Womens' Studies there is nothing but a good barista job waiting for you after a hundred and fifty grand education. Check out Asians. They never let their kids study stupid stuff. College is to get a real job in medicine, engineering, accounting, pharmacy, etc. They do not do Renaissance Lit 101.
I say no defaults on the loans unless all the socialist professors take part of the haircut with 20% salary reductions. That should put them in better line with other professionals who work 25 hours per week.
Yeah, let's look at the "Asians." I live in San Francisco and am surrounded by them (the Chinese specifically). What you say is true, they all study STEM. I feel sorry for them. They only do it because their parents will beat them or the family will lose "face." The only problem with those area of study is that they don't encourage free thinking. Ask them who John Steinbeck, Ernest Hemingway, or Mark Twain is and they just shrug their heads. They don't know and don't care. There's more to life than just money and I'll be eternally grateful for my liberal arts education. I studied History in college. Consequently I live in my van, deliver food on my scooter 7 days a week, and am very anti-social as I watch America flush itself down the toilet. I'm also an Army veteran who used his G.I. Bill to go to college and still owe $6000. Graduated in 2003.
So you're saying any San Fran Asian would be happy to trade places with you?
I graduated a Physics / Math major and I also took enough minors in literature and other liberal arts like greek mythology to get a well rounded education. Just because you are a STEM in school doesn't mean you don't have other choices (course options)! I did over stay my time in college with over 180 credit hours ;-) And NO I did not hang around to party (well maybe a little) but I changed majors way too much and college was WAY cheaper then and I actually enjoyed learning and still do!
Pharmacists will be replaced by dispensing machines in the not to distant future. It's not like the concoct their own medicines anymore like they used to.
If you meant a Chemist - the one actually creating the new drugs then I'd agree (even if half the shit they come up with doesn't work or is outright dangerous due to big pharma, but that's a whole other issue altogether).
Cheers
hey you asshole misogynist pig you mispelled "womyns" studies.
It was my passive-aggressyve thing.
This is just one more way the Fed, government, and banks...
But you repeat yourself.
Really? Millennials are taught in these "lack-of-concentration camps" known as schools - propagandized by their parents, teachers, and media - to believe that a college education is the best way to avoid digging ditches for a career. They buy into this because, "Hey, why would their government lie to them and their parents sell out their future?". …and this is somehow their fault?
I feel for the Millennials. Nothing is what it seems and the world they were raised in was a lie.
It will be "Lord of the Flies" time, once they fully realize just how badly they've been screwed over by previous generations that wanted "Money for nothing and their checks for free…"
haha these pussies can barely tie thier own shoes, I'm looking forward to them trying the lord of teh flies crap...should be good for some laughs
You have the empathy of a woman. I'm guessing you'd gun down german concentration camp survivors because they looked like zombies.
Alot of them could have avoided that sistuation if they had heeded hitlers warning to leave the country.
And a lot of kids grow up poor, with no manufacturing industry remaining and non-educated parents, with no idea where to put themselves such that they can earn any kind of meaningful income. 99% of what they hear is "go to college", almost no one is out there warning them that college is a ripoff.
Your examples don't fit the situation, you're just being an ass.
There is nothing.
The only thing that makes it better for a 50 something is, they will suffer for less time.
This whole thing is a shit sandwich, unless you get a government paycheck.
And your day is coming.
Empathy of a woman? Women are not empathic? What leads you to say this?
Rather than focusing your hatred towards the "brainwashed" millennials focus your hatred on those who are doing the brainwashing.
Remember, it is easier to fool a person than show him that he has been fooled.