This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
Have We Reached A "Peak Water" Tipping Point In California?
Submitted by Gaius Publius via DownWithTyrannry blog,
It may be a see-saw course, but it's riding an uphill train.
A bit ago I wrote, regarding climate and tipping points:
The concept of "tipping point" — a change beyond which there's no turning back — comes up a lot in climate discussions. An obvious tipping point involves polar ice. If the earth keeps warming — both in the atmosphere and in the ocean — at some point a full and permanent melt of Arctic and Antarctic ice is inevitable. Permanent ice first started forming in the Antarctic about 35 million years ago, thanks to global cooling which crossed a tipping point for ice formation. That's not very long ago. During the 200 million years before that, the earth was too warm for permanent ice to form, at least as far as we know.
We're now going the other direction, rewarming the earth, and permanent ice is increasingly disappearing, as you'd expect. At some point, permanent ice will be gone. At some point before that, its loss will be inevitable. Like the passengers in the car above, its end may not have come — yet — but there's no turning back....
I think the American Southwest is beyond a tipping point for available fresh water. I've written several times — for example, here — that California and the Southwest have passed "peak water," that the most water available to the region is what's available now. We can mitigate the severity of decline in supply (i.e., arrest the decline at a less-bad place by arresting its cause), and we can adapt to whatever consequences can't be mitigated.
But we can no longer go back to plentiful fresh water from the Colorado River watershed. That day is gone, and in fact, I suspect most in the region know it, even though it's not yet reflected in real estate prices.
Two of the three takeaways from the above paragraphs are these: "California and the Southwest have passed 'peak water'" and "most in the region know it." (The third takeaway from the above is discussed at the end of this piece.)
"For the first time in 120 years, winter average minimum temperature in the Sierra Nevada was above freezing"
My comment, that "most in the region know it," is anecdotal. What you're about to read below isn't. Hunter Cutting, writing at Huffington Post, notes (my emphasis):
With Californians crossing their fingers in hopes of a super El Niño to help end the state's historic drought, California's water agency just delivered some startling news: for the first time in 120 years of record keeping, the winter average minimum temperature in the Sierra Nevada was above freezing. And across the state, the last 12 months were the warmest on record. This explains why the Sierra Nevada snow pack that provides nearly 30% of the state's water stood at its lowest level in at least 500 years this last winter despite precipitation levels that, while low, still came in above recent record lows. The few winter storms of the past two years were warmer than average and tended to produce rain, not snow. And what snow fell melted away almost immediately.
Thresholds matter when it comes to climate change. A small increase in temperature can have a huge impact on natural systems and human infrastructure designed to cope with current weather patterns and extremes. Only a few inches of extra rain can top a levee protecting against flood. Only a degree of warming can be the difference between ice-up and navigable water, between snow pack and bare ground.
Climate change has intensified the California drought by fueling record-breaking temperatures that evaporate critically important snowpack, convert snowfall into rain, and dry out soils. This last winter in California was the warmest in 119 years of record keeping, smashing the prior record by an unprecedented margin. Weather records tend to be broken when a temporary trend driven by natural variability runs in the same direction as the long-term trend driven by climate change, in this case towards warmer temperatures. Drought in California has increased significantly over the past 100 years due to rising temperatures. A recent paleoclimate study found that the current drought stands out as the worst to hit the state in 1,200 years largely due the remarkable, record-high temperatures.
The rest of Cutting's good piece deals with what the coming El Niño will do. Please read if that interests you.
There's an easy way to think about this. Imagine the thermostat in your home freezer is broken and the temperature inside goes from 31 degrees to 33 degrees overnight, just above freezing, with no way to turn it down. Now imagine the Koch Bros (and "friends of carbon" Democrats) have emptied your town of repair people — every last one of them is gone. It's over, right? Everything in the freezer is going to thaw. Then the inside is going to dry out. And everyone in your house who doesn't already know this will figure it out. All because of a two-degree change in temperature that can't be reversed.
When it comes to climate, two non-obvious rules apply:
- Change won't be linear; there will be sudden bursts at tipping points.
- Pessimistic predictions are more likely to be right than optimistic ones.
Most people get this already, even if they haven't internalized it. Which is why most people already know, or strongly suspect, that California and the American Southwest have already crossed a line from which there will be no return. This revelation, from the state's water agency, just adds numbers. Time to act decisively? Do enough people think so?
Negative and Positive Takeaways
I said that two of the three takeaways about California, from the text I quoted at the beginning, were these: "California and the Southwest have passed 'peak water'" and "most in the region know it." The third is from the same sentence: "though it's not yet reflected in real estate prices" — meaning farm land as well as urban property.
It's just a matter of time, though. Prices will fall as awareness hits, awareness that future prices can only fall. Note that prices in bear markets tend to be decidedly non-linear. And when that awareness does hit, when land is cheap, insurance expensive and the population in decline, nothing coming out of the mouths of the Kochs — or methane-promoting politicians in the Democratic Party — will change a single mind. (In terms of our playful freezer metaphor, you know the thing's going to end up in the yard, right? It just hasn't been carted out yet.)
But that's just the negative takeaway. There's a positive takeaway as well. It's not over everywhere, not yet. From the same piece quoted at the top, referring to the tipping point of extreme weather:
This [incidence of extreme weather] is "a" tipping point, not "the" tipping point. We have slid into a "new normal" for weather, but please note:
- We're talking only about the weather, not a host of other effects, like extreme sea level rise. I don't think we've passed that tipping point yet.
- We can stop this process whenever we want to — or rather, we can force the "carbon bosses" and their minions in government to stop whenever we want to stop them. They have only the power we collectively allow them to have.
It really is up to us, and it really is not too late in any absolute sense. For my playfully named (but effective) "Easter Island solution," see here. For a look at one sure way out, see here.
Will it take a decidedly non-linear, noticeably dramatic, event to create critical mass for a real solution? If so, we could use it soon, because the clock is ticking. It may be a see-saw course, but it's riding an uphill train. (Again, the real solution, expressed metaphorically, is here. Expressed directly, it's here. Everything less is a delaying tactic.)
»
- 51300 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
- advertisements -
Science is knowledge; God is all knowing and He told us when He created the earth and guess what; we live on a dying planet and a disposable planet to be replaced by a perfect one without people like you; that is logical..rid the earth of sin and sinners and we have perfect peace.
So why do people live in a desert...and expect water to be plentiful?
And just because ice melts in one area - near a desert in MARCH! - does not mean ice is melting and disappearing permanently in other areas.
See: http://canadafreepress.com/article/75701
And: "S(cientific) A(merican) quotes the article's coauthor, Ricarda Winkelmann, a physicist with the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research, as saying, "Humanity can indeed melt all of Antarctica's ice, if we were to burn all of the fossil fuels." And the authors assert this because they created a model that tells them it could happen.
But the Antarctic isn't cooperating.
"According to a NASA report from October of last year, "Sea ice surrounding Antarctica reached a new record high extent this year, covering more of the southern oceans than it has since scientists began a long-term satellite record to map sea ice extent in the late 1970s." Oops!"
See: http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/bay_area/opinion/policy-bytes-climate-scientists-predict-antarctic-ice-will-melt-even/article_36f5c6ff-4156-55e6-bdd1-aeac1f14b843.html
The Antarctic land ice is melting away at a 90 Gigaton annual clip...
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Annual+loss+of+Antarctic+Land+Ice
Is this how you lie to yourself or do you practice at being deliberately stupid?
Glaciers have been melting since the late Holocene era.
Who is the stupid?
And could you provide any sort of evidence for this?
That would be too much to ask, eh?
BTW, don't make shit up, it is very bad form...
Hint: Google Marcott 13
Ocean levels have risen from terrestrial ice that melted.
http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v5/n9/abs/ngeo1536.html
I googled marcott, is this what you're referring to?
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/03/13/marcotts-proxies/
Who is making stuff up? I see the effects of glaciers every day where I live. Those glaciers aren't here anymore, they melted.
Because of the sun.
You want scientific evidence? How's this shit for starters?
http://www.sott.net/article/303063-Massive-Global-Cooling-process-discov...
http://www.sott.net/article/302443-Why-is-NOAA-altering-weather-data-ahe...
And then, THIS:
http://www.sott.net/article/301724-Nobel-Laureate-and-physicist-Ivar-Gia...
Are you some kind of paid troll for Al Gore's carbon credit tax bullshit?
No, I doubt it. But I am. The pay is hard to explain. It's a quid-pro-quo thing.
Neither side is reliable. Gore's crap or this 'sott.net' stuff. we all have to learn to think for ourselves. Don't see that happening any time soon. I blame fluoride in the water, personally.
You cannot provide a shed of valid evidence other than "experts believe" or "science say" or "experts agree".
Next up, the imbecile will proclaim the need to imprison or execute climaphate heretics to reassure us of the correctness of his position.
And in 100 years when the ice starts gathering at an "alarming rate" (to you buffoons, not thinking people)?
So how much ice /what temps are ideal and how many people are you willing to have your govt murder to achieve your ideal?
None. 'Murder' them yourselves. Own it.
BTW - most, a vast majority, of the ice is underwater; so let it all melt and we will have more land, not less...a unique property of water.
Follow the money fool; there is consensus science in this everywhere and that is pure conjecture to outright lies. It shows everyone with at least 2 working brain cells that you have never done a causal reading, much less any detail analysis of any mainstream article on the subject, for if you had you would not be parroting this bull-crap.
'DownwithTyranny' blog.
Ok...
Then this:
"Now imagine the Koch Bros (and "friends of carbon" Democrats)"
That's about the point at which any credibility the author might have had, just went down the shitter like a bout of dysentery...
---
---
Well this is a full service Website don't you know? They aggregate "data" from several trustworthy sources to placate the thronging masses which hereby consist of:
Climate dimwitarians.
Russian trolls.
linking to
Syrian trolls.
linking to
Iranian trolls.
linking to (unbeknownst online buddies are)
Anti feders.
linking to (unbeknownst online buddies are)
Gold buggards.
linking to (unbeknownst online buddies are)
9/11 troothers (correct spelling)
And a plethora of other members hard at work presenting "basement researched" advice and scientific data representing the claasical views of the world.
But the flip side of that is the full service proclamations from the church of the climaphate which consist of:
imbeciles
linked to
govt outreach organizations falsifying "scientific data"
linked to
other govt organizations hiding the decline
linked to
yet more govt organizations excluding data that doesn't agree
linked to
violation of the popper principle of falsifiability
linked to
New World Order globalist organizations proclaiming the truthiness of the church of the climaphate based on the need to kill capitalism and replace it with marxism.
linked to
Statists proclaiming the truthiness of the climaphate and the need to imprison and execute heretics.
linked to
fraudulent "peer reviewed" data (aka you suck me off and I'll agree to your bullshit research)
linked to
Outright lies about "consensus"
linked to
Science gospel taken from mountain climbing magazines
linked to
Joe schmuck the rag man in India who is wildly postulating about ice caps melting based on how much the curry burned his rectum the other day.
Speaking of trolls; you are one -WARNING!!!!
Make sure that you tell the families of the 12 who got swept away in the SC flood that all this climate change is conpiracy hoax bullshit. Hope you get a fist to the nose.
'stuff happens' in SC - 'shit happens' in Guatemala -- 131 dead plus 300 more missing - from heavy rains - but you don't hear much from our MSM!
Make sure you dont define weather as climate.
Hope you get a fist to the anus.
From the photos, global warming wasn't much of a problem in 2012...
You guys are talking out your orifices. CA will never run out of water. 1). half of all water in the state runs out to the ocean or is otherwise runs off without being captured. Better capture of water (reservoirs) will help that problem; 2) CA does about zero recylcling--you get that level up to half what they do in israel and australia, then let's talk about problem of water supply; 3) state asked everyone to cut usage, and most cities dropped usage by 20-30% within months. We can conserve; 4) get rid of f-ing golf courses, don't allow lawn watering, and enforce ban on flood irrigation (ridiculous); 5) prices will rise to enforce conservation--already happening; and 6) the final reason this state will never run out of water is that it is right next to a gigantic source of water called the Pacific. San Diego desal plant will supply about 10% of households and raise water bills only about $5-7/month. Even if you tripled that figure or more, hey, it's f-ing water. People will pay, conserve, or pay more. If all that doesn't work, then we'll just pipe water in from Canada. It's one thing to have an oil pipeline, how about a water pipeline? Everyone will be willing and able to pay to get water. To think otherwise is nonsense. I only wish that people worried about the drought would move out of here--we don't need more people. By the way, total cost of desal is about $2,000 per household. That's doable even if they charged the entire amount to the residents. Sure, everyone could move to Illinois, but then, they'd have to live in Illinois (or fill in the blank with any state other than california).
Sorry, as far as most Canadians are concerned you aren't getting our water.
Tow down an iceberg from Alaska.
Canada https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnHm4ro_l8s
Back at ya;
The Trees
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnC88xBPkkc
Love Rush.
It's the AGRICULTURE not the 'Valley' culture that's at stake. R.I.P. Frank Zappa
Frank Zappa / Moon Zappa / Valley Girl - 1982
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb21lsCQ3EM
The only climate change that is real is the Geo-engineering, including all that spraying you see in the skies... and the HAARP program.
Ding, ding, ding - we have a winner
Tinfoil hat or just plain S T U P I D.
Everything is a conspiracy and is directed against me. Me, me, me, me, me.
The real Geoengineering is the verified dumping of ~500 Gigatonnes of C02 into the atmosphere...
What is the weight of all the earth's atmosphere?
The earth turns and the sun burns.
What fraction of the non-condensing CHG does C02 represent?
And if you don't know why non-condensing matters, you really should simply STFU....
My reply doesn't agree with you?
Is that why I should STFU?
And you didn't answer my question. Is the answer 1/100 of 1%?
And of course non-condensing gases don't condense, that is why they are called non-condensing. But those gases will condense just not in our atmosphere, a change in temperature or pressure is all that is required to condense CO2 into liquid or solid.
Since you're so smart tell me what the hell CHG means. Is it catalytic hydrothermal gasification or critical hydraulic gradient?
wonder how much water vapor is in the earth's atmosphere? And the ratio of "500 gigatons" : water vapor?
Then ask, how much of the atmosphere IS water vapor?
What would the temperature of the Earth be if you removed only the C02 How long would it take?
BTW, you clearly do not understand the term "non-condensing" do you?
Look flak, we don't agree on much, but we can agree Roger is a total fucking moron, so please explain it to him. I'll be quiet, I only want to see what it says next for some cheap giggles.
Regardless of what CHG means, can you tell me what bearing it has on AGW and the risks to our future please? Is there some kinda panacea involved?
Rush/Caress Of Steel/ Panacea - 1975
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c364YFkv93Q
If California goes bust it will be because of the communist leadership and legal system, not because of climate change. Quit yer whinin and move someplace that isn't dependent on the State to supply the water.
And next year, or the year after, it will be, "Worst flooding in California history caused by global warming."
The four seasons of California. Earthquake, flood, fire and drought.
Non-story. The last 5 years are typical of pre-El Nino cycles. Extremely dry. We are now entering an El Nino cycle which will replenish the reservoirs. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.
Too logical. Doesn't fit into the doom porn usually peddled around here.
California's story is an old one, told many times before, and never with a happy ending. A harsh climate breeds tough, resourceful people who say one day, "This river often dries up and occasionally floods, but if we dammed it here, here, and here, we could irrigate this valley and create heaven on Earth."
They do this, and life is good, and the people thrive and multiply. But even without climate change, random power-law distribution guarantees that some day a big enough flood will break the dams or a long enough drought will empty the reservoirs, and prosperous cities suddenly become abandoned ruins. E.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marib_Dam
Calipornia exodus coming in Summer of 2016-2017.
Eastern Sierras reporting in. Fuck yosemite and the trash it brings. That is all.
Oh, yeah, weve had rain / snow since Oct 1st....
http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_24993601/california-drought-past-d...
Great link. It really puts this article in perspective.
When I act like a fuckin commie..
..I usually do it in Kalifornia.
Stay thirsty comrades!
FUCK CAFLLEFORNIA.
First the gov't has been working on weather modification since the 50s, well documented. Second the earth is 5 billion years old, don't tell me about what happened 1200 years ago. Third the largest cache of whale bones found is in Arizona. Forth I used to climb 3000 ft to find ocean fossils, found plenty. Fifth we are floating on a rock, with 360 sextillion other rocks that occasionally knock the shit out of us, so I really don't care about golf courses in the desert. Sixth every large metro area in the world pumps water from high altitudes and dumps their waste at low altitudes completely bypassing the natural aquifers. They also reroute all storm water around their metro area.
Quit using the Chem-trails 24/7 in conjunction with HAARP and the problem resolves itself.
QUOTE: "In this regard, nanotechnology could be utilized to create clouds of tiny smart particles. Atmospherically buoyant, these ultra-small computer particles could navigate themselves to block optical sensors. Alternatively, they might be used to provide an atmospheric electrical potential difference -- a way to precisely aim and time lightning strikes over the enemy’s head – thereby concoct thunderbolts on demand.
Perhaps that’s too far out for some. But some blue sky thinkers have already looked into these and other scenarios in "Weather as a Force Multiplier: Owning the Weather in 2025" – a research paper written by a seven person team of military officers and presented in 1996 as part of a larger study dubbed Air Force 2025" - http://www.space.com/1725-military-weather.html
You do not have an High pressure system sit over any area for almost 5 years anywhere, but that is exactly what has happened to Calipornia. Those micro-particles the planes above you spew out everyday in conjunction with heating/exciting the *ionosphere is what they are speaking of; much is micro-aluminum, not good for the human brain and has been going on 24/7 for the past 40 years...can you say autism and dementia? (*The outer region of the Earth's atmosphere; contains a high concentration of free electrons)
"Permanent ice first started forming in the Antarctic about 35 million years ago"
It's not 'permanent' ice. "At least five major ice ages have occurred throughout Earth's history: the earliest was over 2 billion years ago, and the most recent one began approximately 3 million years ago and continues today." The earth has been ice free for 75% of its life as a planet.
"we can force the "carbon bosses" and their minions in government to stop whenever we want to stop them."
Currently measured CO2, note, not Carbon(C) which is a completely different chemical than CO2 is between 222ppm to 400ppm+ dependng upon where you measure it. AGW advocates claim these figures are too high, never mind that they have been orders of magnitude higher in the past and caused massive increases in plant life.
Below 182ppm plant life stops on planet earth. If the Cap and Trade becomes reality then governments and corporations will be able to buy carbon credits instead of fixing pollution, and they will because it's cheaper than fixing pollution. Which is a big problem for me and my sinuses.
To provide clean drinking water for everyone in the world would cost $50B. Goldman Sachs makes about that much (and growing each year) from commissions on selling Carbon Credits each year and profit tastes way better than clean water.
Right on every count.
Unfortunately Global warming is a religion. Although I hope you enlightened some of them, I wouldn't count on it. They tend to zone out data that runs counter to popular dogma.
orders of magnitude higher, 7 billion braniacs and their 'civilizations' not in existance. It's different this time. LOL
Brrr, it's still cold where I live.
You assume that global warming (where it exists) is primarily anthropogenic. This hypothesis is unlikely to be true.
Therefore, the first part of the article is likely true: climate is changing. The idea that pretending CO2 is a poison is going to change it is likely wrong.
It ain't the assumption, it's the conclusion....
Of Al Gore's fraudulent analysis? Of the Pope's lack of analysis?
I take it all back flak, you were right about everything, the end of the world is upon us ... oh, hang on ... ... sorry mate, ... I just got a really schiznitz tweet ... anyway? .. where was I? ... oh yeah, look ... I've seen this sort of thing before, what we did last time when timmy-flim-flam's imaginary world was ending, is we wasted billions on de-sal plants, that were never used, and waited ... and it rained ... like lots ... lots and lots ... it really, really rained ... waaay lots ... like it was adamantly predicted to never ever do so again ... soes ... i thinks we can pull this one out of the poo here if we wait until it rains and snows ... like lots ... lots and lots ... really lots.
bet that works ;-)
2c
Its called a drought. 2011 was a record year for snowpack. Couldn't mountainbike until August in Tahoe. Do you think this is the first drought in human history? Not to mention the El Nino patterns. Typical shark-jumping click bait BS article.
They started screaming drought in 2013 which was the FIRST year of a drought.
It is their agenda and for those who live here it is obvious.
Jerry Brown another drought with underground piped water to SoCal .....AGAIN.
Guys, in 400 years we will laugh about this.
David Suzuki gets owned on an Australian interview. Beautiful to watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mIVZnnqm7o
"There is no pause" - Michel Jarraud, Sec. Gen. World Meteorolgical Organization, 2014
So Dr. Dave didn't have the latest info, he correctly deferred to those WHO do. Bloke asking the question was a little vauge, no?
Charles Manson saw all this shit coming down,way back in the 60's..He was going to lead his "Family" into a hole in the ground beneath the Mohave desert,and wait for technology to wipe out 99% of the population,after which he would emerge,and train the knee-grows to run the machines..Fuck,he might have pulled it off,except for one little problem..
I'll say it again. Within ten years these million dollar stucco boxes in so cal will be occupied by coyotes and cockroaches. Humans will be gone. Housing values at zero. Humans can't live in areas without water.
That's why we're letting La Raza have it now. No fresh water, and the salt water (Pacific Ocean) is a fairly dead, significantly radioactive sea, so desalination (using nuclear generated electricity) won't even fix the problem.
Another 100 million Mexicans,Somalis, Arabs will fix the problem.
"Most people get this already" No sirrah, people here at ZH surely don't.
Tell Al Gore, Hilary, Obama and Pelosi to stop flying around in their private jets.
I'm afraid I have to disagree. Land prices will either fall or rise (a lot) depending on what sort of water access and/or rights are attached to them. Here in Colorado, the farmers who kept their water shares are millionaires. The ones who sold theirs are sitting in broken down trailers on dust bowl acreage (and working for their wet neighbors).
The fact that there is a plateau or peak of water is not a surprise. Only a finite average amount falls every year. California, Nevada, and Arizona long ago passed the point of utilizing their own native water resources and have instead been drawing off off the watershed of the central Rockies for about a century. Now they have peaked that source as well. With modern technology, drawing off of the upper Rockies is not an impossibility but they should get busy on it pretty quick if that's what comes next.
My own assumption is that this is another of those things that are not worth worrying about in the current environment. Other problems are about to take up our time and resources and by the time those problems are solved, I suspect that the SW water deficit will have been turned back into a native surplus. The Colorado will, in the words of Abraham Lincoln, again flow unvexed to the sea.
Cities throughout the Southwest are going to be in serious shape - if this drought continues. and the projections are that it could go for several more decades.
just one story. I took my oldest daughter to see a bear last summer. We sat out at night at the entrance to a high-country campground in Kings Canyon National Park. in the old days - no problem seeing bears at that location!!! The bears were "all over" the campers at night ... foraging for any scraps that were edible. BUT we didn't see one bear. In fact, we pretty much didnt see anything at all. The place was almost devoid of life.
I asked around. I guess all the bears have moved to low altitudes now. down where the rivers are still flowing. gradually, life is shifting - and disappearing.
My property barely escaped destruction by wildfire during he past month. Today I hired a tree feller to take down some of the ponderosa pines that are now dying in mass. It looked terrible two years ago, but the real devastation is now becomign apparent. My forested home is now a grove of dead giants, many 150 years old. And somehow I get the feeling we havent' seen the worst of it.
AGW == LIE (propaganda).
Also, quantity_of_snowfall != temperature.
But yes, California is suffering a drought. One that the current shift hopefully ends soon.
AGW is not necessarily a lie. it's a theory. backed by the current scientific consensus, which is nothing else then what a majority of researchers think might be right
of course the next great scientist is always the one that takes scientific consensus and proves it wrong, best with experiments using the scientific method
on the AGW's and eco side there is of course the very important fact that we have only one planet. which on the other side is also the biggest problem in proving anything using the sm
what is seriously scary (from this side of the pond) is how many Americans try to make "science" something dogmatic like religion
dogmas have no place in real science. it's all "yeah? prove that to me". skepsis is built in. the attempt to make science something like religion is completely anti-scientific
but the real source of all this corruption of science and politics is simple: subsidies, humungous ones for conventional fuels and rising ones for non-conventional energy sources
What place does payola (including grants and salaries) have in "science"? What place does propaganda have in "science"? What place does "agree with us or lose your job" have in "science"?
AGW is a gigantic fraud with ASTRONOMICALLY HUGE and equally OBVIOUS political and financial payoffs for those who control the global totalitarianism implemented to FORCE every human on the planet to pay, pay, pay... and live crappy lives (except the elites, who still need to shower and fly around endlessly in their jets)?
Perhaps the most absurd part of AGW is, warmer climate would be a GOOD thing! More land capable of growing food. And most land that already produces food becomes more productive. Plus, all of this is proven via still existing written records from the MWP, and from scientific measures + inferences from even warmer previous periods.
To scientists involved in AGW "research", AGW is a lie. To be sure, some people have other interests (mostly political/control and financial) and some of them may not know for sure that AGW is a huge lie. But they don't care, they just want power and riches.
honestann, the answers to your questions are of course none, none and none
nevertheless, science is about proving things. with experiments, using the scientific method (and one planet only makes it difficult, even disregarding the timeframes)
so it's not a lie, it's a theory being brandished like religious dogma, by paid propagandists and firm believers
your use of the word "lie" betrays a certain human need to believe in (some) truth. the very problem to begin with
btw, the AGW crowd is giddily high on their hundreds of billions of subsidies. their counterpart is giddily high on their thousands of billions of subsidies (worldwide, as the IMF recently calculated)
the whole discussion in the US is highly staged... by both parts
It is a LIE that they KNOW what they claim to know. That IS a lie... flat out.
And it is predatory assault of astronomical magnitude to force everyone on earth to be absolutely SCREWED by them and their plans.
Anyone who claims their plan is "settled", and everyone on earth must conform with their plans and goals AUTOMATICALLY renders them VILE, EVIL, PREDATORS.
I don't care WHAT plans, goals and agendas ANYONE has, for them to attempt to force us all to obey them UTTERLY and TOTALLY rules them out as anyone to take seriously in any respect. This applies to AGW as well as ANY other scheme of ANY type.
Note this too. Even if every single so-called scientific claim they make is TRUE (which is definitely false), that does NOT make them masters of the universe... or earth. It does not make them my masters, or make me their slave. And that is what they claim. In fact, that is their PRIMARY claim... more important than any of their so-called "science". And so, that is their biggest LIE of all... that they are masters of all, and all others are their slaves, and must comply with any insane plans they deem appropriate.
honestann, as often you don't give me the impression to read what I write
how do you prove that it's a lie? they can't prove their points, you can't prove your points, "AGW deniers" can't prove their points
on one side the "liers" of AGW, on the other side the oil and coal vested interests. both engaging in a shallow charade of political entertainment in the US
and you, my dear, fall for their ploys, entangle yourself in thinking in dogmatic terms of truth vs lies, right vs wrong. you are exactly where they want you to be: partisan, believing, enraged, distracted
imho you should be more worried where this kind of "scientific thinking" is going to lead. but you would have to adopt the skeptical approach first, meaning starting with what you don't know, and acknowledge your lack of knowledge, first
and this goes against the grain. saying: "I don't know"
So... you consider the following to NOT be lies?
-----
#1: Advocates of AGW are omniscient.
#2: Advocates of AGW are our gods and masters.
-----
I will NOT pretend I am involved in a scientific conversation with ANYONE who deems I must comply with everything they say. I am 100% clear that ANYONE involved in such aggressive predatory behavior IS a predator, and does not care about honor, science, engineering, rationality or fact. They are inherently entirely OUTSIDE anything that can be deemed science or rational or worthy of discussion. The only proper relationship an honest, ethical, benevolent producer can have with an aggressive predator is... evade them or exterminate them. BTW, animal predators that do not threaten me or my property, I am happy to leave alone as part of nature.
By the way, one of their primary claims is that nothing AGW skeptics say matters or needs to be considered because "the issue is settled". That is inherently NOT science, and any claim that such an attitude is compatible with science is yet another LIE.
But again, I will not negotiate the terms of surrender of my life under threat and duress. I will not comply... but if I cannot evade them, I will defend myself, as should every other honorable sentient being.
-----
It isn't that I don't understand what you write. I do. However, much of what you write I consider irrelevant in the context of the conversation (but possibly relevant in other contexts).
They have simply ASSERTED they are correct, that THE ISSUE IS SETTLED (and therefore not subject to observation, evidence, rational thought or discoveries). I do not pretend I am dealing with honorable or rational beings who say things like this, or who claim my life belongs to them, and I (and everyone) must obey the temper-tantrum demands they make.
-----
BTW, notice what you wrote. Specifically, notice you agree with me. YOU claim that "they can't prove their points". Well, they claim they have proven their points. Therefore, YOU AGREE THEY LIE.
I never claimed to know everything about "climate change", much less that portion that may be AGW. No human knows [even close to] every detail about a system as complex as "climate", much less the subset that is AGW.
I AM right to say "they can't prove their points", and I AM right to say "I am not their slave, and nobody else is their slave, and they have no legitimate basis to force me or others to obey their demands and pay money to them or others". And I AM right to refuse to pretend to hold rational conversations with people who are irrational. Note that I refuse to pretend to hold rational conversations with people who claim I must obey them even BEFORE I decide whether they may or may not be correct about some specific issue or issues. The very fact they claim I must obey them is sufficient for me to kill them dead, whether they are 100% correct or 100% wrong or somewhere between.
If someone wishes to persuade me of some issue... ANY issue... they had better not start out saying "the issue is already settled", and they had better not start out saying "I and everyone else on earth must obey them". Because in that case, I immediately refuse to pretend I am dealing with honest, honorable, rational beings. I have no obligation to listen to, or negotiate with predators. And I never will.
Oh, and BTW, even if AGW is true and significant in magnitude, my inference at this point is... that would be beneficial for mankind AND would not raise water levels dramatically. The serious advocates of AGW are vicious human predators, not scientists (in any way, shape or form).
-----
BTW, I have an EXTREMELY low tolerance for pollution. So don't make the mistake of thinking I don't care about that issue --- precisely the opposite. In fact, one reason AGW scumbags anger me so much is... they have sucked the effectiveness of millions of people who care about environment into a scam political issue, leaving the many legitimate pollution concerns almost ignored today.
I don't know a lot. But what I do know is, I don't treat predators as thoughtful scientists, and I don't accept being enslaved by anyone. PERIOD. I am an honest, ethical, responsible scientist, engineer and inventor. I won't stand for BS, and I won't stand for being enslaved. EVER.
She totally nailed you first time G. ;-)
If CO2 is a problem isn't it time to go to war with China to make them stop building more coal fired plants? After all The Planet Is At Stake. Isn't it?
Or just have a real tea party, get a bunch of furious people out to sea ports, and dump all the shit made in China into the ocean, and stop buying shit made there.
Elect government that will tax the imports. Win-win for the USA.
The south western 1/3rd of North America has had droughts lasting over 200 years, up to 240 years long, if you just go back 7,000 years instead of the typical 100 year timeline most media focuses on. What does taht mean in terms of human caused climate change? There were no factories or coal heat back 7,000 years ago.
OK quite a few here on ZH don't accept humanities effect on the climate.
So let's just burn every drop of fossil fuel deforest and geo engineer the climate to our liking. Shit this is our planet so what if biodiversity is reduced down to crops, farmed food stock pets and a few pot plants. If any life apart from our own(until the next war) has no economic value then sorry its a waste of resources for us to permit its existence.
Boy, your name is appropriate.
Peak water? California? Don't they have like a thousand miles of coastline? One word answer to their problem - desalination.
So, consume more energy or move? Will moving and building new infrastructure use more energy than your idea? Interesting question.
Where did the dumphuck who wrote these lies take Thermodynamics?
WHY have Heating Degree Days and Cooling Degree Days both dropped over the last 20 years if the word is getting warmer?
Socialist jew media liars should stop writing about shit they are totally ignorant of.
It's just Chinatown.
The Geo-Engineering program has been full throttle on us here in CA since about 2008.
Spraying us like vermin.
That had to fuck things up.
"California and the Southwest have passed 'peak water'" and "most in the region know it."
Funny, I'm in the region and I haven't heard anything about "peak water." Here's what I have observed though. An apocalyptic chemtrail barrage precedes every rainstorm. I can watch the planes spray. It is depressingly routine to watch the rain in the forecast go from 80% chance of rain to 0% as the storms approach. After the storm passes, the spraying stops.
I also know that there is a "Ridiculously Resilient Ridge" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridiculously_Resilient_Ridge) of high pressure parked off the West Coast that deflects all storms. The ridge has remained there, perfectly stationary, for 4 years! That sounds natural, doesn't it?
You can peddle your carbon taxes and carbon credits and hypothetical "tipping points." You can try to convince me that emptying my wallet to carbon traders will keep the boogey man in the closet. You can blame all this climate havoc on my pickup, but I will talk about chemtrailing, weather weapons and climate warfare. Until I see a meaningful investigation into weather weapon capabilities by the US military, until I see the spraying stop, until the Ridge dissipates, you will remain illegitimate.