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Paul Craig Roberts On The MH-17 Report: "Only An Idiot Would Believe It"
Submitted by Paul Craig Roberts,
When I read that the report on the downing of the Malaysian airliner over Ukraine was being
put in the hands of the Dutch, I knew that there would be no investigation and no attention to the facts.
And there wasn’t.
I did not intend to write about the report, because Washington’s propaganda has already succeeded, at least in the Western world, in its purpose of laying the blame on Russia. However, the misrepresentation of the Dutch report by Western media, such as NPR, is so outrageous as to make the media the story and not the report.
For example, I just heard NPR’s Moscow correspondent, Corey Flintoff, say that the missile that hit the airliner was fired by Ukrainian separatists who lack the technical ability to operate the system. Therefore, the missile had to have been fired by a Russian.
There is nothing in the Dutch report whatsoever that leads to this conclusion. Flintoff either is incompetent or lying or he is expressing his view and not the report’s conclusion.
The only conclusion that the report reaches is one that we already knew: if a Buk missile brought down the airliner, it was a Russian-made missile. The Dutch report does not say who fired it.
Indeed, the report places no blame on Russia, but it does place blame on Ukraine for not closing the airspace over the war area. Attorneys have stated in response to the report that families of those killed and the Malaysian airline itself are likely to file lawsuits against Ukraine for negligence.
Of course, there was nothing of this in Flintoff’s report.
As I wrote at the time of the airliner’s destruction, the Western media already had “the-Russians-did-it” story ready the moment the airliner was reported to be shot down. This story was very useful to Washington in hardening its European vassal states into sanctions against Russia, as there was some dissent. What Washington has never explained and the Western media has never asked is: What motive did separatists and Russia have to shoot down a Malaysian airliner?
None whatsoever. The Russian government would never allow such a thing. Putin would have immediately strung up those responsible.
Washington’s story makes no sense whatsoever. Only an idiot could believe it.
What motive did Washington have? Many. The demonization of Russia made it impossible for European governments to resist or abandon the economic sanctions that Washington is using to break economic and political relationships between Europe and Russia.
The Russian manufacturer of the Buk missile has proven that if a Buk missile was used, it was an old version that exists only in the Ukraine military. For some years the Russian military has been equipped with a replacement version that has a different signature in its destructive impact. The damage to the Malaysian airliner is inconsistent with the destructive force of the Buk missile in Russian service. The reports were given to the Dutch, but no effort was made to replicate and verify the validity of the tests conducted by the manufacturer of the missile. Indeed, the Dutch report does not even consider whether the airliner was downed by Ukrainian fighter jets. The report is as useless as the 9/11 Commission’s report.
Don’t expect any acknowledgement of this by the Western media, a collection of people who lie for a living.
The reason that the West has no future is that the West has no media, only propagandists for government and corporate agendas and apologists for their crimes. Every day the bought-and-paid-for-media sustains The Matrix that makes Western peoples politically impotent.
The Western media has no independence. An editor of a major German newspaper has written a book, a best-seller published in Germany, in which he states that not only he himself served the CIA as a reliable purveyor of Washington’s lies, but that every significant journalist in Europe does so also.
Obviously, his book has not been translated and published in America.
NPR, like all of Western media, has lost its integrity. NPR claims to be reader-supported. In fact, it is supported by corporations. Pay attention to the ads: “NPR is supported by xyz corporation working to sell you this or that product or service.”
The George W. Bush regime destroyed NPR by appointing two Republican female ideologues to oversee NPR’s public function. The two Republicans succeeded in making job security, not reporting integrity, the motive of NPR journalists.
As a person who worked with President Reagan to end the Cold War and associated nuclear threat, I am dismayed that the Western media has failed life on earth by resurrecting the prospect of nuclear armageddon.
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The missile exploded, just as designed, a few feet away from the plane. Simple math, isn’t it?
So, how come nobody can do the reverse calculation to PINPOINT the launch site, within a few feet?
We can easily calculate the trajectory of the Slingshot around the Moon, or landing on a freaking asteroid. Elon Musk’s rockets have consistently smashed into a tiny barge in the ocean.
So, the freaking math works on those occasions, but not for the MH17 investigation?
Don’t they have a calculator, an abacus, or a Slide Rule in the Netherlands? ;-)
Looney
sure is awefully convienent timing, don't yall think?
Another example of Washington passing the Buk
When I grow up, I wanna be a BUK-keeper ;-)
Looney
Scathing and well deserved rip on the PBS which has become a true embarassment. I don't know how those people can sit in front of the cameras/microphones and spew that shit.
The Propaganda and Brainwashing Syndicate. They offer a softer, more gentle audible presentation, for the discerning prole. Still brainwashing, just the gentle cycle.
Until they release the Black Box and Air Traffic Control recordings/transcripts, I won't bother reading anything put out by the Dutch. Obviously they are covering up for the Ukie USSA controlled puppet regime.
If there was a smoking gun condemning the Russians, the USSA media would be screaming it 24/7. Instead we hear crickets, except of course from the usual Ukie trolls
Have you ever heard of an air traffic crash investigation where the Black Box was kept secret? Have you ever heard of an air crash investigation that didn't even ask for the air traffic control tapes?
When has an air crash investigation NOT asked for testimony of the Air Traffic Controller who was in contact and handled the planes flight details?
The bitch woman who was on MH-17 has been on vaction for over a year and a half, not seen or heard from. She never went back to the tower.
CNN and NPR pretend with a straight face that this is even an investigation! Fuck'n hell!
kind of reminds me of the 9-11 investigation (no black box data released whatsoever).
this also looked fishy to me:
Malaysia not only disallows inquests. It has forbidden family members of the 43 Malaysian victims from opening the coffins. None of the kin of those killed was permitted to view the victims in their coffins, Wan Lailatul Masturah said. “We were not allowed by the government, nobody must see. All the corpses who came back were not allowed to be opened.”
Could you imagine being denied the right to see your dead wife or child because the "government' forbid it?? Does this not stink of a coverup?
The last major crash I remember that was this poorly investigated was when Bill Clinton's Sec of Commerce flew into a mountain near Saravejo or however you spell it...Totally buried, it was a hit.
Dr. Roberts is full of crap. The Russians shot down the plane. Who else do you see in the Ukraine? The Norwegians? Not everything's a conspiracy.
Shouldn't you be calling yourself the Ukie whore? If there was conclusive proof Russia shot down MH17, we would have had it within 24 hours of the crash.
Even the servile Dutch did not have the brass to lie openly and blame Russia. They know their report is full of holes.
They sure did get their gold back in a darn hurry while Germany got less, before giving up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_repatriation#The_Netherlands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_repatriation#Germany
Bit of a balls up in that autopsy reports on the Australians killed in the crime were released, briefly, to the public. They showed none of the shrapnel wounds the Dutch report claims. They were consistent with the air-to-air downing theory.
Wonder if NPR mentioned that?
The Netherlands do buy an awful lot of treasuries just when we need then too... So they're obedient, servile nwo enablers..
Yes, I know its China..
king whore did you not see when the ukraine fighter piolt came forward and said he did it because he was told it was putins jet that was in the area at the time (by 15 min) , fuck why would Russia shoot down a commercial jet , what just for shits and giggles.
Why dont you tell us that Putin has a death star and throws babies out of inqubators , go back to google.
Flintoff and Reems are two of the biggest PBS pro-Dem DC propaganda mouthpieces imho. Not worth listening to anymore it's so distorted and biased.
Sounds like KAL007
Iran Air Flight 655 ??
This pilot was supposedly flying a SU-25, the plane couldn't get to the airliners altitude, nor could it catch up with the airliner, lastly, do you really believe that the small AA missiles a plane can carry would one shot a airliner? Especially when these would be heat seeking and go for the engines instead of the cockpit.
This is where conspiracy theorists go full retard, yes there are a lot of wrong things being done that are reported differently or ignored, but not everything, by buying into the narrative that Russia/Seperatists/whoever can do no harm, the truth is that they are both good and bad, Syria and this.
Do tell me the reason why Top Gun was instituted for US Navy Fighter pilots at THEN Miramar Naval Air Station...(The US Marines took over Miramar in the Clinton military downsizing in the middle 1990s.)
Was it due to heavy losses in Vietnam where Soviet trained Fighter Pilots were blowing American fighter jets out of the sky with CANNON FIRE...after the American fighter pilots had depleted their Air to Air Missile Munitions?
Where do you think that Ukranian Fighter Pilots received their training? The West?
Ukraine, after all, was a SOVIET Socialist Republic...before the breakup of that EMPIRE BUILDING REGIME.
Schools of thought, however, are extremely resistant to change. Ukrainian Fighter Pilots are trained under former Soviet Fighter Pilots.
Russian trained Fighter pilots are more reliant upon CANNON FIRE that Air to Air missiles...If you have done any rudimentary study of strategy and tactics used by the Soviet Air Forces then you'd KNOW THAT LITTLE FACT.
So just how is Annapolis, Md. these days? Or are you out of West Point? No? Then you must have studied at Boulder, Colorado.
No? What? You did NOT go to War College?
(Hint...It is a TRAP QUESTION. If you admit going to War College then you are an outright LIAR as you would know much better than the outright BULLSHIT which you dreamed up.. If you deny ever going to War College then you are a total IGNORAMOUS as you haven't a clue about what you are writing about....Your choice.)
Now that is a fucking laughable comment which you wrote. isn't it???.
For the era all that is correct, I was based at Mirimar in Hanger #1 a long long time ago.
But surely, you cannot suggest the missiles hanging off of MiG's and Sukhoi's today are merely for decoration?
Now we can go back to discussing who's BUK it is...
"buying into the narrative that Russia/Seperatists/whoever can do no harm"
Right, its not like the Ukies would shoot down a plane full of civilians. Oopsie:
"Ukraine finally admitted yesterday that its military shot down a Russian airliner that crashed into the Black Sea last week, killing all 78 passengers and crew."
Ukraine admits it shot down Russian airliner"On July 21 Russia also released a radar image showing what they claimed to be an SU-27 fighter jet in close proximity to flight MH17. Ukraine had previously denied that there were any military aircraft near MH17, but they then reversed their story and said that the SU-27 was "escorting" the flight."
Flight MH17 - What You're Not Being Toldthe kings whore is click bait, probably a Tyler, since he is here for some time....
This is /sarc right? The King's Whore, is that like The Court Fool?
What a useless plonker you are. The Ukrainian military have been operating the BUK system for a long time. My guess is that they thought they were shooting down Putin's plane. Same colour and at 35,000ft it would not be possible to verify what they were firing at - except it was the same or a similar colour. The more the West lies the more it is a cover up.
It was taken down by CANNON FIRE from Ukranian Fighter Jets scrambled to intercept.
There ia absolutely no empirical evidence of Missile tracks or Plumes from ANYWHERE on the ground.
However the PICTURES of the holes in the Cockpit from the Cannon Rounds was more than convincing.
They are using the BUK Missile System as a RUSE...unfortunately quite affectively as you swallowed the bait, hook, line and the sinker.
I'd like to see this, as well as some forensic evidence capable of determing cannon fire (pretty big and nasty I imagine) from shrapnel from missile impact/explosion.
For what it is worth, I am a former USAF battle damage repair analyst (and mechanical engineer).
To be super simplistic, cannon fire will leave ragged round-ish entry holes, even with impact fuzed shells, while a SAM (with proximity detonation) will leave ragged triangular-ish shaped entry holes.
Did the King's Whore upvote himself (and I do mean "himself")? Dozens of planes flew over Ukraine that day. Only one was redirected over a war zone and ordered to descend to a lower altitude. Was that done by Putin personally?
Another desperate attempt to get people to click on your unbelievably pointless, worthless excuse for a blog. It's not useful information, it's not literature-I don't actually know what it is, other than shot. (That was me swearing, but my pile of shot, carp Kindle keeps retyping, as it knows best)
the mass media's whore
The Ron Brown accident was thoroughly investigated by competent Government Investigators.
Left unanswered in the multimillion dollar investigation conducted by some of the best lawyers money could buy was:
1) WTF was the Commerce Secretary doing in Croatia
and
2) WTF was the .45 calibre bullet hole doing in the top of his head
.45 cal bullet holes are common in the heads of deceased Americans. Particularly so, in the heads of Black Americans. Idjus bidness as usuamole. Move on, nothing to see here.
On April 3, 1996, Commerce Secretary Ron Brown and 34 others were killed when their Air Force Boeing 737 crashed into a mountainside in Croatia. One day after the crash, before any real investigation had begun, Defense Secretary William Perry told the Associated Press that the plane crash was "a classic sort of accident that good instrumentation should be able to prevent." The Air Force soon agreed and, in its ensuing investigation, determined that the tragic event was due to navigational error. Since that time, certain anomalies have come to light regarding the crash:
The guy carried water for the Clintons and got a bullet for his silence. So what?
In other news, mafia soldier found slain...
Another cover up Concorde flight 4590, incompetent French engineers left out a shim from the left bogie wheel, firefighters witnessed a wheel on fire as the plane stood at the end of the runway waiting for clearance to take off, their testimony was never used in the investigation. The whole report was a cover up because Air France was up for sale at the time; they had to protect the float price.
If that was true and well known, then why did BA ground its entire fleet? And why also did BA then spend millions upgrading their fuel tanks? It seems like they did something with nothing to gain here.
BA wasted its money. The Concorde never flew any commercial passengers again.
Corporations are really good at wasting other people's money.
Look at the cash outflows from today's Biotech Firms...and get a good laugh as they will collapse.
Stink is right! the bodies were out in the sun for days
Lame.
Everyone and anyone has an absolute right to view their family and friends if they are claimed to have died, PERIOD.
Remember the Germanwings crash? It took less than 72 hours to release the cockpit recordings. Yet the Fucking Dutch can't produce them after 15 months??
I'll bet Putin has a copy of the black box recordings and is waiting for the right time to stick it to the USSA/EU/Dutch and Ukie stooges.
"The managing director of Germanwings, Thomas Winkelmann, said the Airbus A320 rapidly lost altitude for more than eight minutes before crashing in the French Alps on Tuesday. By AP on Publish Date March 24, 2015. Photo by Patrik Stollarz/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images.Mar 24, 2015 Germanwings Crash in French Alps Kills 150; Cockpit Voice ...www.nytimes.com/2015/03/.../germanwings-crash.ht... The New York Times
I remember looking into the 3 planes that went down after the one in Ukraine. All their black boxes were recovered in days, if not weeks...(Only because one went down in a somewhat remote area in Africa.)
So yes, it's complete bullshit.
They intentionally left out a lot of holes in the report. I'm Dutch, all i can say is a lot of Dutch on Dutch forums don't buy into the whole story either. I can't say i didn't expect this though, some experts that where working on the investigation got pulled out of it because they said the process was not free from politics like it should be. The black box's got send to the UK, and you might be right on that since the rebels had a hold of the black box's first. However, like with the other malaysian airplane that vanished, there are quite a few anomolies here with MH17, one of them is that the plane climbed to a unsafe attitude, and there was also a investigative reporter there from the UK looking into the Ebola outbreak in Africa. With the other plane i was refering too, Rothschilds now own a particular semiconductor, since.. well.. the whole research team that held the patent rights.. died on the flight in question. Since propaganda is heating up on all major news networks.. owned by a handful of people, i can bet they are preparing to launch us all into a world war for their benefit. NATO is already flooding in troops into Turkey. No matter what Putin will put forth as a brilliant move, i fear these powers have their minds made up.
LL, I sent you a contact request. Like your comments a lot, and would like ot have a discussion about Ukraine via Chat.
I am old enough to have listened to NPR descend to the depths of liars and propagandists. Actually, their lies are carefully crafted and artful, in some cases pure genious. In others, the rush to lie is so urgent that they minic FOX. In either case, NPR is so foul and tainted that they are hopeless tools of Neoconservattive Washington.
Here in Minnesota, MPR and NPR ask us for money every couple months. Saying they are Listerner supported, then run corporate commerical every 15 minutes!
Their lies about Afghanistan were the worst drivel and vomet. All GI's helping little girls to Afghan schools, while fighting taliban hand to hand in the mountains, gaining hard won victories every day! Fuck, the drivel! Like yo Bastiat, I wonder how they can sit and spew their shit. But we do know why and how don't we. The useless cunts do it for the money, and for the easy job of reading State department and Pentagon handouts.
You're quite right about MPR. It's a corporate empire of its own.
I recently worked with Cathy Wurzer on a meeting for the Mayo Clinic. It was pretty interesting; both the meeting and Ms. Wurzer. She is a highly competent, pleasant professional. But I learned a lot watching her scan some notes, formulate the questions that sounded like what the audience would want to hear answered, but which allowed the interviewee to recite their script. Clearly Ms. Wurzer is very practiced at it. If I were ever to be interviewed, and to wish not to say anything substantive, I'd want her to interview me.
Jack Burton, I don't waste any time watching or reading USSA MSM media,except when I need updates on the lies they want me to believe. How is it, for example, that Russia Today has more views on youtube than the BBC, CNN, CNBS etc? Could it be because RT offers a different opinion, and has somewhat balanced reporting? When I occasionally watch FOX, I just cannot believe the endless BS that comes out of their reporters mouths.
The lies are so blatant that they are embarrassing, such as it is the Afghan's fault that the USSA bombed a Hospital, only later to admit that the US was responsible. There must be a special place waiting in hell for these shameless liars.
https://www.rt.com/news/214723-rt-two-billion-youtube/
I dont trust anyone on the illuminati controlled main stream media.
.
Every choice we got from Day 1 is the same fuckin shit. Left/right, east/west, etc...it doesnt matter, they control it all.
,
The beast is further down the creek and its hoodwinked the entire fucking globe.
.
Now
what?
Latina. I listen to USA media often to guage the depth of their lies, and to get an idea what the agenda is. I also listen to RT daily. I have a sharp nose for lies, a very sharp nose. I can watch CNN and pick out lies every two minutes. I listen to or watch RT several times a day, I am keen to catch them telling lies, doing pure propaganda, or distortions in interviews. I have to say, I see very, very little if any of that at RT. That is why RT is growing, because they try not to lie to you. If they ever began propaganda and lies, I'de turn them off. So far, I keep watching. Their documentary shows are good as well.
Could you ever imagine a show like Peter Lavelle's Crosstalk airing on any of the MSM networks? Lavelle may not be particularly photogenic but has a Phd in History, he is sharp as a tack and encourages dissenting views. By contrast, we have bubble headed bleach blondes and blow dry's reading their proganda while their guest nod their heads in obedience.
No wonder the USSA network ratings keep dropping.
Didn't Dante have a special circle in Hell for lying journalists (probably called historians in those days)?
There is their weakness. They do not do it for money. They do it for fiat.
US media and media American states in Europe have a task only one: tell from script given them. Diligent rewarded, noncompliant lifetime employment blacklisted.
Easy choice if invertebrate...
When the white house is involved the bukkake missiles blow up near the blue dresses
- Kerry told he had seen satellite pics
- No communication with Ukrain air control has been relased
- Pilot closest to the "explotion" was in an undamaged state according to his sister
etc etc etc
Only a fool would believe ANYTHING the Zio-Mainstream-Media report. Even if they say it's sunny outside, I have to go look for myself twice to believe it.
Roberts is correct... look for the "Cui Bono". Russia had nothing to gain by launching an attack on a civilian airline. The Zio-Controlled zombie called "The United States" did. How do I justify the label "Zio-Controlled"? By way of deception, the U.S. doth do war. Our statesmen have no honor anymore. Our body is completely manipulated by the Mossad/CIA/Irsaeli brain... and we all know the Mossad's motto.
The West is owned. And what really sucks is that only a few guys at the top got paid for selling us all out, yet 95% of the population continues to blame whichever political party or ideology they don't like.
And its a tightrope on who frustates me more sometimes...the masses or those few 'guys'.
.
Here we are middle. stuck in the
Yes, don't you just love hearing the same old fucking bullshit spew from the mouths of idiots. "Oh those nasty democractes did it" "Oh if only we could get the republicans out, how much better" "I blame Obama" "I blame Bush" "We need a republican congress" "No, we need a democratic congress"
Bunch of clown fucks!
Exactly. There is no fundamental difference between the Democrats or Republicans when it comes to foreign policy. In fact, there is little difference, period. They are merely 2 wings on the same predator that is constantly pecking out our livelihoods.
I beg to disagree. Consider the case of Harriet Myers (sp?). Charlie Crist. Mike Castle. 'Nuff said? There is, in fact, a pretty big difference between the parties, just not much between Obama and McConnell, Pelosi and Boehner. I just wish the Republican rank and file was more discerning.
Democrats, Republicans and presidents - it is only a decorative power in America.
The real power is in the hands of the owners of the Federal Reserve.
Real political model of the United States - is a one-party model of power. The ruling party in the United States called "party of big capital."
In the US, we see a one-party regime of the military-police dictatorship, covered by a fig leaf decorative power of "Democrats, Republicans and presidents".
Agent Smithstein took a good 20 minutes to come along and downvote all of us tonight. Must be a glitch in the matrix.
Ha! Ha! Ha! Where is my personal Israeli troll? He was all over me last week. I guess shooting Palistinian kids is picking up, as he is too busy to follow me today.
I'm no fan of the MSM, but I do like logical consistency in arguments.
And Mr. Roberts is a lazy arguer. WHOEVER shot down the Malaysian airliner THOUGHT they were shooting down THEIR OWN enemy. That should be obvious.
Instead Mr. Roberts says: What motive did separatists and Russia have to shoot down a Malaysian airliner? In debating circles, this type of argumentation is called "setting up a straw man." It's an lazy way to argue because the argument is so easy to knock down. I don't care who you think shot down that plane (actually I do, but that's another story), but if this type of argument is all you got, you got nothin'. Whatever intellectual rigor or substance Mr. Roberts may have once had, is long gone. If separatists or Russia shot down that plane, they THOUGHT they were shooting their enemy, not some hapless airliner. Same for the Ukrainian govt. If they shot it down, they THOUGHT it was their enemy. So, What motive did separatists and Russia have to shoot down a Malaysian airliner? None, cause they fucked up and shot down the wrong plane. Same for the Ukrainians. Mr. Roberts should get out of public life, 'cause he's just an embarrassment.
my understanding is that a lot depends on whether there really were hourglass shaped shrapnel penetrations of the airplane and passengers. if so, the buk is likelier of recent vintage and more likely of russian military origin (of course the cia probably has a couple for general purposes). if not, it is likelier to have been at least initially under ukrainian control (but could have been captured and used by the separatists to cast guilt on the ukes).
so maybe it doesn't matter in a world so sneaky. too bad it's not as easy to figure out as whether the wtc was a controlled demolition. again, how come the official story still gets such play in the msm? oh right, to call them presstitutes insults whores.
SHHHHH.................They want you to think they don't have differential calculus where you have the answer and work backward to get the original question.
Ex: a car wreck left 77 feet of skidmarks on the pavement (answer). Cop wants to know if you were speeding when you wrecked. At what rate of speed was the car weighing 3000 lb traveling with a tire friction constant of x.(original problem- car traveling down the road at some speed and slid.)
Math sucks like that it works both ways. Like adding vs subtracting or multiply divide, and there are the answers to the original problems you want to know left all over the place.
They know what kind of missle, how fast it was going, how much it weighted, where it come from, arc of travel, ect. Heck you give me as long as they took to report to brush up on me rusty arithmetic and I could tell them all this and more in two weeks.
Not required in a Journalism major. So they are dumb enough to think you will believe it.
It was my understanding that there would be no math on this false flag.
good catch. When it's fake, the key is to elicit emotion
Its even worse than that - our whole life is a fuckin lie.
I hear ya buddy, I'm gonna get the twig and berries hacked off too.
Few days US satellites allegedly pinpointed Russian cruise missile crashes in Iran, but they did not pick a much more bigger object an 777, when it was shot down and were there other objects close by . It was not night time and the sky was pretty clear. No doubt that Ukraine already then was "a point of great" interest, because of Crimea and the civil war. Of course an option of rebels mistaken the flight for an Ukraine transport plane is a realistic option, but the way the incident was dealt with from the first moment onwards gives legitimate cause for suspicion.
Counting the trajectory on the bases of the missile exploding one meter from the cockpit is impossible without further reliable data. You are left with a huge area covered, anywhere from which the missile could have reached the target.
If you mention these type of inconsistacies to the self proclaimed smart people you will observe the deer look right into the headlights followed by the "he did not just say that" carry on shelled out position reaction.
It used to get me upset, but now it is a source of entertainment.
The trajectory was not known only the detonation point. The detonation point would be the tip of a cone. The base of the cone would be possible launch sites. All of that area was within that controlled by rebels. I doubt the rebels knew it was a commercial airliner they targeted they probably did not have access to air traffic control data. I believe they thought it was another Ukrainian military plane.
Yeah along with the Ukrainian colony on Mars will be open.
I don't care about your "believism".
The chemical composition of submunitions that are offered in the Netherlands as its version is different from the chemical composition of these submunitions BUK missiles, which is in service with the Russian. This is called a deliberate forgery falsification of evidence. It is a crime. Sooner or later, but the Netherlands will have to answer for this crime.
There were reports of already partially decomposed bodies amoung the weckage. No one is mentioning that now.
Whay not?
That would link it to the earlier shot down 777 and none of these assholes want that. The little people can discuss that to no end - but if anyone who is anyone puts 2 and 2 together with this, they are the next ones exploding in their car or plane slammed into something.
Boy, is Paul Craig Roberts bitter these days! According to him, Obama is the anti-Christ, a satanist with no value for human life who is the type who would schedule attacks on civilian soft targets once a month by proxy killers to get the power to revoke the Second Amendment. If not for Spencer Stone stopping that brainwashed Moroccan on the French train, Obama would have been three for three (Charleston, S.C. and Roseburg, Oregon). Stone has to know that, like the Mafia, Obama will never stop trying to kill him. The video of the guys who stabbed Stone outside a Sacramento bar is interesting in that there is a getaway car there in seconds, literally, to pick one guy up and the woman but the other guy goes down the street, where his car was. Mossad uses women in its hit teams. State sponsored terrorism. Just like the jet shootdown of MH-17. Or the murder of reporter Michael Hastings, tortured before he was killed. Or Aaron Swartz's murder. If Obama is no different than the Nazis, when will we have a Night of the Long Knives? Probably coming up, Paul.
"The missile exploded, just as designed, a few feet away from the plane. Simple math, isn’t it?"
Not so simple. The strapnel holes in the wings and fusage lined up on straight line. When a missile explodes it generates a radial shrapnel pattern. A straight shrapnel line indicates the plane was fired upon most likely by a fighter plane armed with machine guns.
We also have some of the audio from the air traffic controllers in the Ukraine requesting the airliner to fly directly over the war zone and also for the plane to drop its altitude. Seems too fishy to me,
Fishy indeed! The investigation NEVER asked about the change of flight path AFTER MH-17 was airborne. Never asked about the request to descend 2,000 feet. Can you believe an investigation did NOT ask about those little issues? What a fucking joke.
Looney said what !
"do the reverse calculation to PINPOINT the launch site"
Maybe it was sarcasm, but that missile was an active navigation device. It was TRACKING live radar emitted by the air craft. When it got close enough, the proximity fuse popped, and it detonated.
You can't reverse engineer its path, like a rock.
I'm SURE you know that.
You are correct, these missiles do not travel in a straight line.
Wrong both of you.. These are simple velocity problems you do by the thousands in a Physics class, backwards and forwards. IE: shooting a bullet out of a gun,
Because they have measured gravity as a constant pull all the time, If i remember correctly is 14lbs per square foot. (Thats a constant value in all gun , bullet, arc of the drop type velocity problems. That causes the arc as the speed or mass is decreased.
If you can determine the weight or velocity of bullet/missile/Spaceship/Car any thing that moves, you got the rest. And You only need one of these two values and the other marked by an unknown x. can be used for the parts you dont know either speed or weight and the gravity pull value. Simple problem to set up from there. Or even speed of spin of the earth which is known ,24 hrs day broken down as little as you want for a long shot calc..
give a math guy one measured answer and he can deduce the rest. and use that answer for tons more.
How do you guys think they launch satelites, do missle range calculations in the first place to design fire control or tell you how much drop your old 30/30 has a 100 yds. and millions of ofher things.
Guys, Quit smokin pot, it makes you stupid, Or smoke away and realize there are science/engineer ect that are a lot smarter than you think.
Aye, if you smoke you know someone is smarter.
Always.
You're talking to ones who don't smoke. They don't know better.
lol, you got a point but thats a different kind of velocity problem :)
I don't smoke, I did postgraduate classes in Physics back in the day. For your examples above both the starting point and the end point are known.
For the MH-17 problem, the starting point of the missile is unknown, The precise angle of the missile relative to the flight path when it detonated is unknown. Only the end point of the missile is known with an acceptable degree of precision.
Now check this image below which shows a typical flight pattern of these types of missiles, which will vary with the rate that accelerant is burned.
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/a-detailed-description-of-the-bu...
Now calculate the starting point of the missile. I cannot be done without introducing other assumptions or using probability modelling. Which is why the DSB provided a 320 sq km "probable" launch area, and even that number was challenged by the missile manufacturer.
BULLSHIT You can't even read, I only need end point data of any kind. You don't know what you are talking about and never took even the freshman level class to make a stupid statement like this. The only thing you postgraduated in was dumbass.
Get lost troll
Okay. prove me wrong and do the calculation. Or better yet, find someone smarter than you to do it for you,
low paid govt troll. Don't spill your free Mt Dew on you cheap ass desert camo. And try not to drool so much when you doze off. Its disgusting caveman.
Wrong again, but you are the type that would never admit it. And I am the type that would not try to stop you from drowning in your own bile. Have a nice day.
Taking into account the speed of the earth's rotation (900 mi/hr at the latitude in question) is not recommended.
"So, how come nobody can do the reverse calculation to PINPOINT the launch site, within a few feet?"
Can't calculate the missiles origin or trajeectory:
1. You can only calc the point of detenation from the shrapnel pattern. Not the missiles Path. The location of the explosion indicate direction, speed or other information need to track the missile
2. Missile was guided and can alter course during flight. The missile does not travel in a linear path.
Apparently only climate 'scientist' are at present capable of developing models to project answers to questions such as yours.
Governments (and especially those who like being paid by government -:), have obviously conquered the earths climate insofar as determining the answers to questions exponentially more complex than you've suggested.
I'm thinking the intended script is...
1.) Climate change. They want it badly. Absolutely critical. The climate deal is a true 'Holy Grail' for the extremist conducting this campaign against humanity.
2.) Guns. "folk's" clearly need to be disarmed. According to the 'leader' of the 'free' world, some folk's in 'america' don't trust government.
3.) Internet. As I think they well know, and have definitely accelerated efforts to implement are open moves to increase constraint over the free flow of unrestricted information...
We once called it honesty. Integrity. Decency. Ethical.
This 'climate change' thing is the most astonishingly overt mass scale social delusion in human history. That humanity has become so diminished intellectually ought to register some mention in our 'presidential' debates right?
Instead we get this obscene, laughable, campishly absurd reality (so they claim-:) show with the magical queen fighting against 'extremist' and 'dangerous' enemies who oppose fair pay and transgendered rights. Which of course is absolutely awful to be sure..however I'm thinking most of the folk's living in america have been conquered.
Seriously?? Why even have elections at the Federal level? The scientist and the experts can decide. They'll tell the 'media' then the 'people' will know what to think.
It's simple.
Excellent
Does the American public even understand that the carbon emissions the climate change hoaxers are howling about is carbon dioxide, that by breathing out, we are simply returning to the air the same CO2 that was there to begin with?
And that CO2 is a part of the carbon cycle, that through photosynthesis, plants take in carbon dioxide and release oxygen, and that the carbon they collect from the CO2 in the air forms their tissues - roots, stems, leaves, and fruit?
That, as Skeptical Science points out,”it's a carbon cycle, not a straight line - and a good thing, too!”
Or that, as TPNN points out: "CO2 is a useful trace gas in the atmosphere, and the planet would actually benefit by having more, not less of it, because it is not a driver for Global Warming and would enrich our vegetation, yielding better crops to feed the expanding population?"
That "the 'Greenhouse Effect' is a natural and valuable phenomenon, without which, the planet would be uninhabitable" and that "CO2 is not a significant greenhouse gas; 95% of the contribution is due to Water Vapor."
Why then, is the world reeling under California’s loony suicidal emission control regulations?
Says TPNN: “Scientists for years have been colluding with government regulators to exact control over our economic system, attempting to replace capitalism with communism/socialism through climate change nonsense, preying on weak-minded Democrats, liberals, and progressives."
But it's hit a snag. As Flora Drury of Daily Mail tells us:
“Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi are producing cars which emit far more pollution on the road than they do in a lab, according to new tests.
“The four car giants join Volkswagen on the growing list of companies whose diesel vehicles passed the EU’s official regulatory test in a laboratory setting, but fail to meet them in realistic driving situations.”
being Dutch I was watching (most) of the presentation here in Holland. I have to say that I was quite surprized by the fairly critical questions being asked by reporters. Then again, I was surprized by the flimsy answer and lack of a follow-up question by the same reporters.
Conclusion, I shouldn't be surprized.
Just such a calculation has been done. The launch site falls within a cone below the point of detonation https://www.metabunk.org/attachments/mh17analysis-parts-1-and-2-pdf.8334/
Almaz-Antey (the Buk missile manufacturer) did just that. And they blew up two cockpits with a Buk warhead to prove their point. Of course you won't see this in Western media (or they misrepresent it). But the Russians did see it on their television. Watch this, it's very illuminating:
MH17 Crash - Field Experiment by Almaz-Antey | Eng Subs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG0Bi_wf7JM
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fe4_1415987530
But, but, we have gazillions of idiots here in America...
Great,
This will attract the brain dead like shit does flies.
You are talking about PCR and the Rus web brigade right?
+100. How can anyone argue with such a well made point and clean argument.
In vain, in vain punitive psychiatry was canceled.
What an idiotic biased BS article, and blaming the meida that is so corrupt and not a mention of CNN, MSNBS or three letter networks, however, the author does implicate a VERY small NPR and blamed on ????, yeah, GWB! Not saying there was not an effort at control, but that is bitching about a door mouse when the compound is over run by tigers. What a buffon!
yes, that is the exact moment when the MSM, lamestreamers all went rouge and forgot their supreme duty and service, to the truth. It was Bish's fault! <sarcasm
well it is bush's fault. and clinton's. they started the push of nato against russia. the current pos obama continued this bad idea.
all three combined this dead wrong policy with letting israel and the zionists/neoconservatives call the shots in the mideast. now the chickens have come home to roost and they look like some bad ass birds of prey about to snack on an oreo.
For those who are not registered in zerohedge...the above has 9 down votes and one up at this time. Go down!
If anything, collecting down votes in this place is a badge of honour. It shows there's someone with an own opinion - in contrast to the gaggle of posters desperately seeking some confirmation for their various conspiracy theories.
Anything political and not financially too technical gets the preppers and tinfoilhatters out of the woodwork en masse. Brace yourself.
The author of this piece is a fucking loony. No idea when he lost his marbles, but claiming this:
"In a column for the Ron Paul Institute, Roberts said that the U.S. government executed the Paris terror attack to punish France for its independent foreign policy" (Charlie Hebdo)
is akin to the CIA doing the 9.11. what. a. fucking. nutter.
This place is great fun for the shits and giggles it delivers, but somehow sad that those wanting to break free from the superficial media crap offered in the States, end up falling off the mental cliff.
Ignoramus!!
Ya, one of those five year thirty four week guys.
There sure is alot of them, with a new avatar everytime.
What you would expect when the whole mainstream media complex has been overrun by leftists.
Your right that CNN, MSNBC, Fox...are all corrupt corporate/Zionist mouth pieces, but NPR is unique, in that it not only sells itself as above the rest, "non partisan", but they receive tax dollars. NPR is a joke, especially for those who think themselves better than everyone else.
I doubt it was intentional, but you're perhaps onto something when you said the MSM/lamestreamers "all went rouge". Actually, I think they went to the Red side earlier than Bush 43 got onto office.
Or perhaps you meant "rogue". Unfortunately, the truth has nothing to do with their main service, which is helping the oligarchs control the mob.
With due respect to PCR, here is a vastly more serious and impressive analysis of the report:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/10/john-helmer-autopsy-of-mh17-crash...
And more background from Helmer:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/john-helmer-mh17-inadmissible-evi...
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/john-helmer-mh17-the-lie-to-end-a...
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/10/john-helmer-m17-why-the-investiga...
The so called evidence is so tainted, no court on earth would allow it's admission to a trial. Paint and exploside residue collected from the ground? Nobody knows who where or when, but they used it in the investigation.
That is why, according to the UN resolution that Russia vetoed, the criminal tribunal was to be conducted using Ukrainian criminal law and evidence provided by the Dutch prosecutors.
So anything that could potentially implcate Russia would be admitted as evidence.
Thanks for the links. That is an excellent series of analytical reports.
PCR is just venting and editorializing here. He doesn't mean for his short piece to be comprehensive in any way.
Helmer, on the other hand, rips apart the entire kangaroo-court like a competent attorney would.
Not a coincidence that the Dutch got their gold back and Germany is still waiting.
Photos are available online that purportedly show a piece of the cockpit structure with round bullet holes in it (MIGs have a 30mm canon.)
I do not believe those to be a fabrication (unless the Dutch commission releases high resolution photos of the pieces they have recovered displaying a comprehensive different view.)
So the highest possibility to me is the Dutch commission is knowingly lying.
After seeing the pics endless times of that piece of skin (just below starboard pilot's seat window), I'm about 99% convinced the plane was shot down. The other possibility is that the Donbass rebels shot that piece up after recovering it from the crash to frame the Ukies. The only Cog Dis on that line of thought is that the Ukie pilot was a damn good shot, there a lot of holes real close together which seems kinda unlikely considering the range and speed of the two aircraft. I'd have a tough time doing that with a M-60...
What's F16 hoser think?
Edit...port side
That piece of wreckage was right under the pilot. I have spent hours looking at it. Not recently, but as soon as that photo went public. There are many holes consistent with a 30MM cannon. And please note, not all are round, as angle of fire changes in flight, the holes change shape. Thus they can not have been shot on the ground by a rebel cannon, because the real wreckage has all the different shape holes a cannon makes from a firing pass. Round begins to lenthen out and even become streaks as the angle leaves 90 degress. A test fire of a 30MM air cannon exists, do a google seach, all the holes made at different angles are shown, compare to the wreckage and see the exact damage appear that a firing pass would make.
I am of two minds. I first was sure a 30MM cannon gunned the plane down. Now, looking again at damage, i can see how a BUK could have done it. YET, I am still troubleed by those 30MM.
Anyone who has paid attention and hasn't drank the kool-aid knows the Ukies shot it down.
Way too much circumstantal evidence available on the net, from spanish air controllers to british reporters interviewing locals, lack of BUK vapour trail to cartoon sketches of possible BUK trajectories, to bullet holes in the fuselage to air to air missle fragments in the wreckage.
Zion is losing and they are going to make ALL of us pay.
Blue Jays won!
Agree with all that but I think the plane was hit first with an air-to-air missile from behind or from a slightly lower altitude which hit one of the engines causing it to veer off course. Then the Ukie fighter moved in for the kill using 30mm cannon fire.
I have long suspected that one intention of shooting it down was for it to crash across the Ukie/Russian border so blaming Putin would be far easier.
It was a tragedy that likely could have been avoided with coordination/safety concerning the air space. When you flood a country with lethel military equipment, subvert governments and attempt to change policy or regime change, bad stuff will happen.
the power of the zionazis to propagandize is getting weaker and weaker. the one thing that i don't understand about the strategy is the one person that knows the truth is the target of all this subterfuge. because a critical mass of people all over the world share a suspicion of the truth putin can act without any deference to the zionazi regime. it is as if the world secretly, if not openly, support what putin is doing becuse everyone is sick and tired of being treated like a pedophiles lover by the usa and brit zionazis..
Remember that ICTS ran security at Schipol that let a cat with funky underwear get on a plane....
http://whatreallyhappened.com/content/icts-provides-security-amsterdam-a...
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ICTS.html
I will give mike credit for the above...
So what about the ATC-cockpit voice recordings? What do they reveal? Have they been made available with this report? If not, why not? Why was Ukraine on the 'investigative' team as its ATC sent the plane into eastern Ukraine?
If you are forced to carry out an investigation into the prevalence of mice, and you want the numbers to be low, just do your 'investigation' in the local cat's home.
The recorder was analyzed in the UK. The report states that everything was normal up until right before the recorders stopped recording. They noticed a multi millisecond noise spike at the very end of the recordings which they indicate was the explosion of the Buk. They had 3 recordings -- pilot, co pilot, and a general cockpit microphone. Based on the position of each of these and the timestamps of the noise, they were able to triangulate where in space the detonation was.
Thanks but I want to see the full transcript and timeline and I want a truly independent (non-NATO) analysis.
xrxs, where is the recording and/or transcript?
Pages 38-47 of the MH17 Crash Report that you can download from www.safetyboard.nl
In addition to the main report, the consultation appendixes (separate downloads from the same page) may be of interest. They contain comments from e.g. the Ukrainian and Russian governments that did not make the report. I haven't checked if they commented on the transcript, but if they did it should be in those appendices.
Oh wait, you meant a transcript of the cockpit voice recorder, not of air traffic control. They didn't publish a transcript of the cockpit because it offered no additional clues except for the explosion. See pages 48-51 of the report.
Isn't he the same idiot that said the guys that did that Charlie Hebdo attack in Paris were actually CIA agents?
This guy seems to get his head really really REALLY how when he blow drys that comb over...
PCR did NOT say that Charlie Hebdo perps were CIA Agents.
Then again, what would you expect from a Ukie troll trying to earn his daily potato? How's that EU visa application working out for you,LOL?
Maybe you should lay off the anti-freeze. Winter is coning and the trucks will need it...
---
Conspiracy theory regarding Charlie Hebdo Attack.
In a column for the Ron Paul Institute, Roberts said that the U.S. government executed the Paris terror attack to punish France for its independent foreign policy.
---
And I quote
Some who think that they are experts will say that a false flag attack in France would be impossible without the cooperation of French intelligence. To this I say that it is practically a certainty that the CIA has more control over French intelligence than does the President of France.
Too bad for the coning.
They're cone heads, I know.
Can you tell me the conspiracy theory that was proven wrong?
Ya, PCR got it wrong.
The CH attack was instigated by the Empire of zion.
Some of your buddies...
What a joke, everyday we hear about how "our" beloved CIA has been busy at work undermining one government or another...Yet until its spoon fed to you, you can't accept reality. You are a perfect fascist, never question, always believe what you are told. Hows that working out for you, hows that working out for America?
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in large groups, especially countries.
i'm sure vlad keeps on tweakin' the nukes no matter what.
Come on people ; just remember who said, before the bodies ( except for the rotten ones) were even cold :- "Putin has gone too far"
I rest my case your Honour.
I know Paul Craig Roberts was an assistant secretary of something or other during the Reagan administration, but why should we give a frick what he thinks? What exactly is his expertise, other than, you know, "speculating"?