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China Says Military Will "Stand Up And Use Force" If US Sends Warships To Islands
Earlier this week, US officials indicated that they are set to go through with a plan to sail warships around China’s man-made islands in the Spratlys.
“It’s just a matter of time when it happens,” one government source told WSJ.
Over the course of the last six months, we’ve seen China’s land reclamation efforts go from oddity, to spectacle, to alleged “provocation”, to excuse for war as Washington feels compelled to come to the aid of its allies in the South Pacific who cried foul after it became apparent that this was no “normal” dredging effort.
In short, China has created some 3,000 acres of new sovereign territory and the US claims Beijing is effectively trying to redraw maritime boundaries on the way to establishing new military outposts. For its part, China denies the allegations and has responded with a peculiar mix of veiled threats (tweaking the wording of its official maritime strategy), not-so-veiled threats (telling a US spy plane with a CNN crew on board to “go now”), and humorous propaganda (a series of pictures from Fiery Cross depicting women, puppies, and gardens).
Despite efforts to de-escalate the matter when Xi visited the US this month, Beijing looks set to draw a line in the sand (no pun intended) when it comes to allowing the US to sail warships near the islands. Here’s AFP with more:
Chinese media slammed the US Thursday for "ceaseless provocations" in the South China Sea, with Washington expected to soon send warships close to artificial islands Beijing has built in disputed waters.
Following a meeting of American and Australian officials Tuesday, US Defense Secretary Ash Carter warned Beijing that Washington will continue to send its military where international law allows, including the South China Sea.
The remarks were backed by Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop, who said the two countries are "on the same page."
An editorial in The Global Times, which is close to China's ruling Communist party, condemned Washington's "ceaseless provocations and coercion".
"China mustn't tolerate rampant US violations of China's adjacent waters and the skies over those expanding islands," it said, adding that its military should "be ready to launch countermeasures according to Washington's level of provocation," it added.
The warship or ships would pass within the 12-mile territorial limit China claims around the structures to demonstrate that US commanders do not recognise it.
Such a move, the Global Times suggested, could be a "breach of China's bottom line".
"If the US encroaches on China's core interests, the Chinese military will stand up and use force to stop it," the paper warned.
There you go. It doesn't get much clearer than that.
Obviously, there's little doubt that China will use these islands for some military purpose. Whether that purpose will be extremely limited (as Beijing has suggested without explicitly acknowledging the militarization of the reefs) remains to be seen.
One question that one might fairly ask here however, is whether the US really needs to sail by the islands just to see if can do so without getting shot at. It isn't, after all, as though China is on the verge of using the Spratlys as a staging ground for an invasion of the entire South Pacific so one wonders whether it might not be better to wait until there is some legitimate purpose for a pass-by. That way, Beijing can't point to a deliberate "provocation."
Whatever the case, we suppose we will see in the next week or so who blinks first.
* * *
A little background on the latest developments with accompanying visuals...
Despite the fact that China claimed to have largely completed its dredging efforts in the Spratlys in June, Bonnie Glaser, a senior adviser at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, tells a different story. Here’s what Glaser has to say about a series of new images shown below and available at the Asia Maritime Transparency Initiative:
China is still dredging in the South China Sea. Satellite imagery of Subi Reef taken in early September shows dredgers pumping sediment onto areas bordered by recently built sea walls and widening the channel for ships to enter the waters enclosed by the reef. On Mischief Reef, a dredger is also at work expanding the channel to enable easier access for ships, possibly for future use as a naval base.
This activity comes in the wake of assertions by China that its land reclamation has ended in the Spratly Island chain. On August 5, during the ASEAN Regional Forum in Kuala Lumpur, Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi told reporters, “China has already stopped. You look, who is building? Take a plane and look for yourself.” He did not pledge that China would refrain from construction and militarization on the newly-created islands, however.
Wang Yi reiterated that China’s construction on the islands is mainly “to improve the working and living conditions of personnel there” and for “public good purposes.” To date, however, China’s activity appears focused on construction for military uses. Recently built structures on Fiery Cross Reef include a completed and freshly painted 3,000-meter runway, helipads, a radar dome, a surveillance tower, and possible satellite communication facilities.
Apparent Chinese preparations for building lengthy airstrips on Subi and Mischief raise questions about whether China will pose challenges to freedom of navigation in the air and sea surrounding those land features in the future.
The persistence of dredging along with construction and militarization on China’s artificial islands underscore Beijing’s unwillingness to exercise self-restraint and look for diplomatic paths to reduce tensions with its neighbors, the United States, and other nations with an interest in the preservation of peace and stability in the South China Sea. U.S. calls for all claimants in the South China Sea to halt land reclamation, construction, and militarization have been rejected by China, which views the status quo as unfavorable to its interests.
On the eve of President Xi Jinping’s visit to the United States, Beijing appears to be sending a message to President Barack Obama that China is determined to advance its interests in the South China Sea even if doing so results in heightened tensions with the United States.
And more from Gregory Poling, a fellow with the Sumitro Chair for Southeast Asia Studies and the Pacific Partners Initiative at CSIS and AMTI director.
Earlier this year, the addition of an airfield on Fiery Cross Reef provided a more southerly runway capable of handling most if not all Chinese military aircraft. And in June, satellite photos indicated that China was preparing to lay down another runway at Subi Reef. New photos taken on September 3 show grading work at Subi, providing further evidence that runway construction there is planned. Meanwhile work at the Fiery Cross airfield is well advanced, with China recently laying down paint.
Satellite photos taken on September 8 contain an unanticipated development, indicating that China may be preparing to construct another airstrip at Mischief Reef. These images show that a retaining wall has been built along the northwest side of the reef, creating a roughly 3,000-meter rectangular area.
And the new visuals:
We'll close with the following from Robert Kaplan, a senior fellow at the Center for a New American Security in Washington who spoke to Bloomberg:
“The Chinese have a classic Sun Tzu philosophy of incremental steps. Because it is small steps, the Americans and their allies will not be able to respond in a strong fashion because they will seem to be over reacting. That is what makes China’s approach so infuriating.”
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Janet will be playing Queen Canute at that point.
i guess trillion is the new billion eh?
Someone should remind Ming the Merciless that our Navy is the most tolerant, LGBT friendly and inclusive naval force on the ENTIRE PLANET. Scares the piss out of them, I'm sure.
Yes, send the Trannies in.
Do our Navy ships fly the "Rainbow Flag"? The Chinese should know they will be part of our new Social Experiment.
If only the US could weaponize land whales...
All trannies, forward ahead full. Fire sexually ambigious salvos on my command!
And someone should also remind Ming the Merciless as to why all the modern Chinese navy ships are glass bottomed -- to see the old Chinese navy...
US will get a bloody nose soon... then all confidence will be lost in USA...
So where is Russia's aircraft carrier chugging to?
Syria
"So where is Russia's aircraft carrier chugging to?"
Nowhere. The Russians said today it's in port broken down...
Obama better get that debt ceiling raised in a jippy. Someone in the East is carrying a baseball bat. Looking for a toothpick knee Kenyan who likes finding new manholes.
Obama is planning to move a few Chicago projects over to the next island. Those chinks will be moving to the suburbs in no time.
I wonder which ship we are willing to lose?
And I wonder which Island the Chinese have agreed to lose?
I am sure this was discussed last week in DC.
I think rather than hype up this situation it would behove the Tylers to at least give some space to the reactions of the immediate sovereigns who's territory is being prempted. What are they saying and doing about this. Instead we always hear about the US versus China perspective. Please expand this so I has more value.
Major Foreign Holders - Department of the Treasury
http://treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/current
Or the laspsed disclosure on Treasury website.
~5% of US Treasuries.
APPROXIMATELY FIVE PERCENT OF US TREASURIES HELD BY CHINA.
Excellent point!
Yeah, why exactly are the Tylers spinning a narrative using these articles? Independent news is supposed to be about facts and opening your perspective up, but instead we are hearing a ramp up to war without any other voice, like those local sovereigns, to be heard.
I think I hear the local sovereigns now.
They're shrieking: help us Uncle Sam, help us.
Dow 18,000....
BULLISH!!!!!!!!
You sir have old ZH class. Take my upvote and enjoy it.
BULLISH!!!!!
China can count on Russia and North Korea for allies in Asia, but that's it. Everyone else hates their guts with a passion {especially Vietnam}. Once the global economy gets to tanking really good, the "China problem" will go away by itself.
I have always found it odd that while it is said that Vietnam HATES China, every single Vietnemese I have met tells me they are Chinese. Just makes no sense...
Just trying to confuse the blue eyed white devil.
whom is absolutely LOVED by all of his neighbors!
Your kidding. Go to China and you will find a very high percentage wish they were any where and anybody else. US will be feeling like this soon if it doesn't wake up!
You need to do some homework - the Mekong has been dammed multiple times at various elevations by the Chinese - for Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia - they own all or part of many businesses in all those countries - speak....chinese
so will see the new hyersonic anti ship missiles in action?? pls get it on video...
You think we could get John Kerry a command in the USN again? I mean we gave him that medal for combat. Maybe its time he earned it.
I'm thinking modren naval boats maybe a litte too "swift" for John Kerry...........
Grimaldus
How about McCain flies an airplane again and gets shot down over China?
Sure you will.
Think whatever you will about all the stupid bullshit we have gotten into militarily over the past few decades. Yep, if not arguably all, was a complete cluster fuck. But yea, China's pissant naval force?
Go right ahead you silly little bastards. Fire one shot across the bow, and pray you miss. Because if you hit, you won't need sand to build another island, you can use the scrap from what is left of your navy. There will be cruise missile subs steaming into strike range within moments and by the following morning your single 1960s Russian aircraft "skateramp" carrier will be a twisted heap on it's way to the bottom of the Pacific, along with all of that other outdated and untested junk you have floating around out there. And if you even think that you can win an economic war by threatening us on imports, it will be far too late. Nothing will rile up the US consumer like yet another naval assault by Asians. I know fat ass rednecks who stopped eating french fries completely and burned every dixie chicks album they owned. Can you imagine what the population will do if you actually attacked one of our warships?
The same can be said about the Chinese who burnt their own japanese cars, and everyone elses. Name a redneck who would burn his own car because its parts are Chinese.
Deep ? You just perfectly illustrated the reason for this "expedition". A distraction.
Professor Terguson: You remember that thing we had about 30 years ago called the Korean conflict? And how we failed to achieve victory? How come we didn't cross the 38th parallel and push those rice-eaters back to the Great Wall of China?
Professor Terguson: [rips a desk apart] Then take the fucking wall apart
[shouts]
Professor Terguson: brick by brick and nuke them back into the fucking stone age forever? Tell me why! How come? Say it! Say it!
Thornton Melon: [incensed] All right. I'll say it. 'Cause Truman was too much of a *pussy wimp* to let MacArthur go in there
[shouts]
Thornton Melon: and blow out those Commie bastards!
Professor Terguson: Good answer. Good answer. I like the way you think. I'm gonna be watching you.
Thornton Melon: [chuckling to his classmates] Good teacher. He really seems to care. About what I have no idea.
My Dad was in the mountains overlooking the Yalu river the night the Chinese started coming over. He was in MI and he said he never ran so fast in his life, he couldn't get caught, and there were just so many of those "little bastards."
I watched that part of that movie with him, and I don't think I ever saw him laugh so hard.
wanky row rome
Wow are we lucky....Obama will know what to do....look at his successes across the world...well at least Chicago...wait...UH OH
Who else is a little bit jealous of the cool shit the chinese engineers and workers get to build? Working on creating a whole new island chain would be pretty awesome...
Especially for scuba enthusiasts. A paradise once the coral recovers.
What a bunch of bullshit...
All the US needs to do is tell Wal-Mart to close there stores for one week. Chinas economy would shit itself and there would be about >1 billion pisssed of Chinese citizens "taking back" their government. The things is already a powder keg and the CCP walks on egg shells to make sure the people don't rise up. By fucking up their economy they'd be guranteeing complete civil madness...
The Chinese aren't going to do anything -- because they can't -- and the two countries will kiss and make up before hand anyhow...
you mind is not working... Americans have no money to spend at walmart... and USA does not produce replacements for Chinese goods... actually no one really does right now... that's one way to get inflation... ban imports... then see people scramble for what is left... nice work.. go work for the FED.
The US can have it's manufacturing industry back in a mere 15 - 20 years. Everything's fine. I heard it on MSNBC.
If the USA is serious about having a manufacturing sector again, it needs to act within the next ten years or forget it. Once all of those skilled tradesmen are dead, their will be no one alive to teach the apprentices. This is strategic as well as economical. The globalist could give a shit, they are already licking their chops over Asia, Africa and eastern Europe {to a lesser degree}. They have turned their backs on the USA and western Europe. This is why they are flooding it with turd world "refugees", so they will never rise again.
Maybe you missed the part about Americans buying mostly what they don't need. China could vanish tomorrow and the average American would be better off without another shorty TV or i device.
I think Walmart may be getting close to closing stores anyway. All the money is already in China.
Those islands are too far from China. And Beijing pissed off all neighbors. The Chinese navy cannot defend the islands against the neighbors plus the U.S. Japan and Australia would be in the picture, too.
Well at least we got to hear from that great US patriot Mr. Kaplan.
The Chinese are assholes for poking their finger into the eyes of the Philippines, Malaysians, etc. But the US had better tread carefully here unless our betters are looking for a 2-front WWIII - Oh, wait....
Still, maybe we could test ChiCom's resolve by sending that great patriot Mr. Kaplan sailing over to the Spratlys with some sandwiches and cookies for our friends there under a biiiig American Flag to let them know we're friendly.
Good for you China!
Let's get this WW3 started already!
It's the only way to be sure.
If we get conquered I hope it's by the Russians.
They have some good looking women. Chinks, not so much.
chinese women are like thirsty arab farmers. there just aren't any. [/spike nolan]
Treasury Department blacklisted a Singapore firm for arms shipments to Pyongyang.
If I find any “round-eye” quotes in the packing material of my imported stuff, I'm gonna be mad and may even litigate.
The chinese call us "white ghosts".
ghost part - coming soon
I think that the days of US gunboat diplomacy are drawing to a close
We paid for the Navy. Might as well use it. Not sure why else we have a large naval presence in the South Pacific if not for this reason.
To try and defend Pearl Harbor, again?
hope diago garcia gets roasted... in yer face Merica
how many mines are laid there?? I am sure they are dropping them as we speak... That's a long way to tow a US ship from...
Overtly antagonizing Russia and China when we are completely out of money and friends? It would appear the US is indeed perusing the final (solution?) contingency to divert a complete financial implosion. God help us all.
I would have liked to have seen Montana.
Hawaii, Diego Garcia, 500 US bases and Vassal states.... and China wants a few little islands... big fucking deal... Fuck off USA - assholes...
If the other nations weaponizes some of their little islands US will say squat.. Phillipines is doing the same thing...
US gov are just assholes... they need a good shit kicking...
do not interrupt enemy while he make mistake
If I were China, I would promise those terrorists that if their terrorist ship crosses the line, I will hit it with everything I've got.
Seems to me the time for the US to have acted would have been when China first initiated construction on those 'islands'. I suspect at this point Kennedy might have imposed a blockade. Today the US is proposing cruising by ? Perhaps the US needs to provide 'aide' in helping the surrounding nations to build 'islands of their own.
“The Chinese have a classic Sun Tzu philosophy of incremental steps. Because it is small steps, the Americans and their allies will not be able to respond in a strong fashion because they will seem to be over reacting. That is what makes China’s approach so infuriating.”
Oooooooh shut the FUCK up Kaplan. Guy read a fortune cookie once and now he's a China expert. Only in DC. Boy oh boy oh boy. It's really no fucking wonder our foreign policy is in fucking knots. The blind leading the blind. There must be 200k Americans in China right now, prolly a few THOUSAND who could give more astute insights on the PLA than these neocon cunts but all you get from mainstream media is the blatherings from another mixed-loyalties hybrid dual-citizen neocon cock-blowing Zionist.
There's enough institutional knowledge within the US armed forces from AMERICANS who actually fought the fucking commies. Excuse me if I take a pass on your pearls of fucking wisdom.
You know who the fucking commies are reading right now, Kaplan? They're reading Trump, The Art of the Deal.
Fucking prima donna turd. Stick your fortune cookie up your ass Kaplan.
In King County, Washington, USA (where Seattle and Redmond --- Micro$oft --- are located), we got PLA coming out of the ying-yang or wazoo!
Over 40% of the homes priced at $400,000 and above are purchased by mainland Chinese, and since the PLA owns the vast majority of the industries over there, those EB-5s must be predominantly, if not all, PLA!
Have a nice day. . . .
And the brown clown just had a code brown in his pannies.
China is being needlessly provocative and hostile in the South China Sea.
The USA is being needlessly provocative and hostile in the South China Sea.
Prick v. Asshole
i think owebomba would win the "who's got the biggest asshole" contest
What if the Chinese decide to sail their islands off the coast of New York for revenge?
The US should drop 50 tons of ammo on these islands and hope the good ones get it.
Every country in the world is flipping the bird at Obama.
Zero respect.
He does come across as perhaps the most arrogant president in my lifetime.
Anyone want to bet that Washington takes this to the hilt and all hell breakes loose?
Here we go again.
The US wants to get into another war.
F**k the US.
It's the Chinese that are making threats.
You know, your nosy and meddlesome neighbor, the one you hate? Imagine that one evening, while you're comfortably resting with some friends in front of the TV with beers and popcorn, she barges in totally drunk and starts hectoring you at the top of her voice about how you should redecorate your place?
That's the USA in the South China Sea.
Chinese are too busy today buying spoos and AAPL to instigate war with US
US leadership is comprised of third rate children. I wonder who gets claim to the salvage?
“The Chinese have a classic Sun Tzu philosophy of incremental steps. "
Hey, Kaplan, psssttt... the Chinese have never given a fuck about Sun Tzu. He is not studied in China. Why don't you ask them instead of making things up?
(Some ignoramuses are still confusing China with its warmongering neighbor Japan).
The ONLY warmongerer is China - a piece of shit if ever there was one!
At times I think Obama runs the show.. most times the zionists run the show... can Obama really be this dumb, or are the zionists sacrificing USA to make way for something better... wreck the world.... only jews remain...
What would happen if Google did this instead of China?
Brought out the dredgers.
Installed solar panels.
Desalination.
Planted a garden.
Internet
Set up a bank.
Surely they have thought about it.
It's only a matter of time before this scenario actually happens.
It's one thing to buy governments and countries.
It's another to create one from nothing.
Nice idea - but in my own little naive way I've always viewed Google AS the US government. At the very least they are very intertwined.
It's all a misunderstanding. That is a sea brothel and subway station.
This NONSENSE from China must stop. What a bunch of hot air.
USN ships have been doing patrols in the South China Sea for quite some time. An that includes courses that took them near the Spratly Islands. Nothing happened ... BECAUSE American ships were in international waters.
For the same reason - the US did not interfere with several Chinese ships that passed close to Alaska. They were in INTERNATIONAL WATERS.
China knows the laws of the sea - their admirals know them forwards and backwards. If China uses Gunboat Diplomacy in international waters, then they are deliberately starting a war.
And so... ?
you know the RULE of the Back Alley. Never start a fight that you can't win :-)
I don't mean this is a bad way - really - but when exactly was the last big win for the US ? Honest question.
"win" is the new "lose". The goal is to keep the wars ongoing.
Look up the invasion of Grenada.
Panama?
Big O is looking for moderate jihadi fish to arm. Not the sharks tho, they are too radical.
Nothing a couple of well aimed tsunamis cannot fix...
This is obviously being done to restore the US and Obamas image. But at what price ?
China can simply claim that these islands are for commercial and ecological purposes. E.g.
. Commercial purposes: Shipping ports, Airports, Hotels and Casinos...
. Marine Research
. Eco-tourism
Plans for the Spratly Hilton are already on the table, and it can have the opening ceremony when Sen. McCain flies in, and enjoys a courtesy suite reserved for him.
Naturally they will have to be protected appropriately against modern sea pirates and organized crime.
Just show moar Chinese babes in uniform. You'll get lots moar readers.
Go for it boys - try firing on one of our ships. If you do it, you'll find three things:
1.) The location you fired from no longer answers the phone
2.) Every bit of crap you sell the USA can be bought just as easily elsewhere
3.) The USA will go way the hell out our way to sign free trade agrements and military parterships with your neighbors.
You're dumber than you look...
It is strange to see China take the position they have. I don't have a problem with them dumping sand in a shallow part of the ocean to effectively create an island, but to claim that as private territory (okay)... along with everything out to 12~15 miles (not okay) is absurd.
That would mean that any individual or entity could call any oil drilling rig that is attached to the bottom of the ocean "private/sovereign territory" (which is okay)... along with everything out to 12~15 miles away (not okay).
That is absurd (the 12~15 miles boundary part of the argument). For one thing, that would mean that China (or the USSA, or anyone else) could create a string of "drilling rig style islands" across any narrow (or not so narrow given enough fiat cash) section of water, and block international transportation.
That's just absurd, and China should understand that.
Usually China doesn't make such absurd assertions.
Not sure why they're being so goofy in this case.
hone
Just ask yourself who they are dealing with that threaten them at every turn from blowing up strategic commercial port(s) 6 in the last 2 months alone, poltiical and financial manipulation from outside and numerous military threats too many to even count in the last 10 years...
basically what you aer saying is nobody has the right to those man built islands...they are in international waters. But who is controlling international waters? The U.N. which is owned by the rothchilds. The rothchilds are taking property all over the united states, hundreds of millions of acres. Maybe billions of acres. The ROthchilds already took over much of the middle east..When does it come to a point where countries such as China and Russia say enough is enough...The west is owned by the rothchilds and they are psychopathic, pedophile, murdering, theiving, disgusting people. China built the damn islands, not the UN. Nor NATO. And Russia has interests in Syria. Russia and China already let the west slide by for many years....enough is enough.
Yes, I think both China and Russia are being massively abused by the USSA, NATO, EU and their nominal allies. And yes, I too suspect (but can't prove) the USSA and its agents are responsible for blowing up ports and assets in China.
However, I don't think the best way to deal with utterly and completely insane idiots, scumbags and human predators is... to start being insane oneself. Better to keep the high ground. That's why I believe the actions Russia took are so brilliant and wise, because they totally take the high-ground... kill terrorists (including terrorists created, trained, supplied and motivated by the USSA). Plus, Russia was invited in and asked for help, unlike the USSA and their allies.
Spend a few hours wandering around the planet with google-earth looking at [somewhat] narrow sections of ocean. This will illustrate clearly what an absolute, complete and utter disaster would occur when nations and corporations create strings of "new territories" across various narrow and narrow-ish gaps of ocean on the planet. If China manages to set the precedent implied by the Chinese claim, then all kinds of hell will break loose in a great many places all over the planet. Everyone will lose (ocean travel and transportation is very important).
So... yeah. Just spend a few hours wandering the planet with google-earth. Then come back and report what you find, and how important you think the narrow issues you identify are in comparison to what flows from establishing this kind of precedent.
My opinion: China and Russia should remain "sane".
Better (and sane) ways to deal with insane predators like the USSA, NATO, EU and so forth do exist, and will be much more effective in the long run.
PS: There is ZERO problem with China creating those islands (or fixed drilling rigs) in international waters. The problem is claiming them as "official territory" that "nobody can come within 15 miles of... or fly over". THAT is the problem. And THAT is what is insane and potentially very harmful and dangerous.
hone
Very long sordid history the Anglo-American establishment has held over China for the past couple hundred years...
Let's just remember who has started all of them just in this timeframe alone!
I'm not on the side of the USSA & allies! If you read what I write, you know that.
And I don't have any problems with anyone creating fixed structures in international waters for themselves.
I do not defend the human predators DBA the evil empire (USSA and allies). But even "good guys" make mistakes sometimes, and trying to claim everything above and within 12~15 miles on the surface as sovereign territory is a huge mistake.
hone
Agreed. And trust me China ain't the "good guys" either... You can't take the "cultural revolution" out of the leadership and the leadership out of the cultural revolution. Anyone who prostrates him or herself in front of a gold statue of Mao has some serious issues and not being allowed to speak of what happened in those days of "turning" are every bit as warped as any American could ever be!
What China and India did with the "evidence" of ground zero is still the most unforgiveable thing any Country could have done outside of remaining silent that is!
Guess the job of building empire for themselves and creating more business through bribes and kick backs was more important to them than finding out who murdered all those innocent people so they could look the other way as silent partner(s) in order to murder and displace millions more people and assist the U.S. in the looting party of the Middle East!
Yes, I have to swallow when I say "good guy"... even within quotes.
I meant that only in a relative sense, compared to the more egregious human predators (namely the USSA and allies).
Note: EVERY government worker is a human parasite, most are human predators, and 100% of everyone at any medium to high level in ANY government is a human predator (and thus, definitely a "bad guy" in the absolute sense).
I wonder if you can remain sane when dealing with insane people..I dont know but I do know I am taking the same stance as russia and china...enough is enough...better china and russia roll over and die? Just admit, you are very smart,. I asked you to marry me, but you made a mistake this time. No big deal, I still love ya, but there comes a point where a person has to say no.
Oh, I totally agree that China and Russia should "just say no" to anything insane, corrupt and destructive others push.
That's pretty much what Russia is doing in Syria.
For China to build those "artificial islands" does not constitute "lying down and dying". For China to say "we will defend the right of anyone to travel through international waters anywhere in the South China Sea" does not constitute "lying down and dying".
China doesn't need to claim "nobody may come within 12~15 miles of our "artificial islands". Why would they? They don't say "nobody may come withing 12~15 miles of our naval vessels or airplanes". So why make such a claim about their "artificial islands", which are akin to "fixed drilling platforms" or "anchored/stationary vessels"?
I simply don't see why failing to create a huge international problem constitutes "lying down and dying".
-----
Oh, and yes, one can remain sane near insane beings, and in the presence of insane beings.
>Usually China doesn't make such absurd assertions.
Usually they stay home behind this big, scenic wall they got.
But once they venture out, they seem to get a little goofy.
Look at the map. Why are you concerned with these places with Oppressive Crony Capitalist Regimes ? For the Preys there, does it matters who is the hegemonic master ? China (new kid on the block) is usurping vested interests not unsuported by many of the inhabitants of which some have been short changed for generations.
I do not accept any "master" or any "hegemony". Period. I'm not sure why you thought my message had anything to do with that.
My point was... anyone (even you) can make a new fixed "island" by piling up rocks in a shallow place, or by building a structure with big metal or concrete tubes (like a drilling rig).
And since you built it... you own it.
My gripe is... when you, or China, or the USSA, or anyone else tries to claim everything for 12~15 miles (used to be 200 miles) is also "owned" by you, and nobody else can travel in that area (or even above that area).
THAT is absurd, and everyone should understand that. Not just China.
BTW, if China (or anyone) was to make this precedent stick, just imagine the endless flood of human predators rushing to establish strings of "artificial islands" 12~15 miles apart in water ways all over the planet. If you take a long, hard look at a world map, you'd notice dozens of places individuals and/or corporations and/or nations could block international travel.
To say this would be a can of worms is a huge understatement.
I don't give a rats butt who is being a jerk.
A jerk is a jerk.
Period.
Where's Ralph Nadar, Green Peace, Al Gore and all the other Climate Change, Global Warming freaks to protest Communist China destroying natural coral reefs? Where's the National Geographic /Green Peace boat to ram the Chinese boat like they do to the Japanese Whaling boats? Typical Cowards I tell you....
Communists are part of Nature.
The rest of us are separate from it.
That is the difference.
Well,
We can determine who owns what sea by General Agreement...or by tooth and claw.
China's Navy can probably have their way in the South China Sea if they desire it enough.
But if tooth and claw is the rule of the day, then I see no reason why only China should use it.
How much of the Pacific and Atlantic could the world's largest Navy control? (Toll?)
If the rule of the whose claim to the sea's natural resources is based on who has the military force to defend it...then who will get most of the sea's claims?
How will China get to market if this is the new rule? How to sell to the America's...if Chinese ships can't get there? How to sell to Europe if ships can't get there without toll? How will China's mercantilist plan of ultra-low wages work if their market benefit is taken away in sea tolls?
How much might they be charged to get to market, if this is China's chosen rule for the Seas?
Be careful what you wish for. You might get your wish fulfilled...but in all sorts of places you never intended.
Objective rules tend to cut both ways, even when intended to benefit only one party.
But tooth and claw!
That is a fickle mistress to choose!
America's hubris and arrogance will force it to make this an issue when in fact - as of today - it's nothing more than China playing in it's own sandboxes. The U.S. is MAKING this an issue when right now, it's NOT.
Will they use a riser or lifts?
The problem drawing lines in the sand is there is always someone big enough or just stupid enough to cross them.
I can see a large flotilla of Junks now. Time to call Steve McQueen in the Sand Pebbles.
Tyler(s) really need to run a sister to this read showing the U.S. Navy's "fucked situation" in the ship building and overhaul department of it's fleet.
Many, many, many vessels gasping for "breath" just begging to go into drydock for repairs that are long overdue, including some aircraft carriers that were never decontaminated or properly "decomissioned"!
And just like the Army and Marine Corps I haven't even gotten to the caliber of recruits serving aboard those ships just in the last 10 years alone on the job!!!
A couple of Typhoons, salt air corrosion and an economic meltdown will have their little sandcastles owned by nature once again.
And the funniest thing about this is that the American president and first lady probably have more invested thru their wall street buds in chinese goods and china than they do in america and american goods.
You have all been suckered!
Yeah, let's try to do some research on that "12 miles question":
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/5145092
‘Technically, an island under international law must be above sea level at all times and capable of human habitation. So roughly, of the disputed islands in the south, the Spratly Islands, around 50 are actually islands and the rest are rocks.’
China claims Scarborough Shoal is an island, while the Philippines maintain it is merely a rock. If the Scarborough Shoal is an island, it would confer an exclusive economic zone (EEZ) on the country that can claim sovereignty. Within an EEZ, the state has full rights to all natural resources for 200 nautical miles around.
‘If they're only rocks, they're only allowed a 12 nautical mile limit,’ says Stephanie Kleine-Ahlbrandt, the director of Asia-Pacific programs at the US Institute of Peace. ‘So that's why the Philippines would argue they are rocks. If they were to be, for example, decided to be Chinese, then it would give China only a 12 nautical mile limit.
Thanks for that post. I see now that the question isn't whether China can settle these rocks/islands, but just how extensive its rights are. So the US position that China has no rights is psychotic - no surprise there. And some international boy will have to determine if these are rocks or islands. They sure look like islands to me, natural or man-made is beside the point I think.
Two things are certain: US is outside the rule of law if it sends warships within 12 miles of these locations and China has a right to defend its property out to 12 miles.
Now if Donald Trump were President he would give that whole area of the sea to China, and would have the U.S. Navy and airforce escort the Chinese Navy and Air Force to those islands. Problem solved. Unless someone doesn't think the Taiwan Chinese are the ligitimate government of China. But he would patiently wait till the oil rigs started pumping.
Yes, and Trump would negotiate for cheap oil from China for Americans.
THE BEST RESPONSE - BOYCOTT!!! All of the Chinese shit you buy every day. Watch them back down FAST; they love money more than you do. If even 5% of Americans rose up and yelled out BOYCOTT all they sell to us, the Chinese military wouild be cut down by their own leaders. This is a stupid game opf "Dare You" and completely unnecessary. We can never controlk them through military means - they out number us by more than 7 to 1. But now while they are economically weakening, we can have them for lunch. Our politicians - it gags me to call them our leaders - are too sold out to big business who raped your familes and took your jobs while the Chinese hackers stole everything we ever created or invented. So the rel fuckers are the big corporations - the international ones - the ones where the top staff and bosses are so rich Midas and Uncle Scrooge would be jealous and in tears. So stop your adolescent pratering; and strart BOYCOTTING. Spread the message. Stop the fucking Chinese from gaining control of the world as here one small step at a time. This island drive-by thing is a pimple on the world's ass. But its all our great leaders can muster - sorry shits that they are. If even one US ship is fired upon, watch Obama over react and squeal for UN help. But the UN is almost completely against us. And Europe is mostly de-militarized and will run for cover and hide under their pacifist socialist rhetoric. So ther e we will be alone and afraid and about to do something very stupid - pick on the biggest dude on the block at over 8000 miles away - while he is about 200 miles away. How stupid is that?
Cunning plan....just one problem....
How many Americans that you know even know that something called the 'Spratly Islands" even exist?
How many Americans that you know even know where the South China Sea is?
And you think they'll boycot buying stuff they don't need with money they don't have to prevent China from building Islands in a place they don't know exists in a sea they've never heard of?
Yah, ok.
Squid
Why should anyone care about it anyway?
Do you know that China is known as the world's factory.
Do you know that Most of China products are actually owned by US and European Corporations?
Do you know that those Corporations are making tons of money with cheap chinese workers?
Do you know that all those corporations are paying out good money to owners of their shares and bonds who are mostly Americans and Europeans.
I am talking about Corporations such as Apple dear jldpc.
Now, you tell me, how stupid is your idea.
I only boycott goods made in the US. Starve the beast then kill it.
You didn't Build Those Islands.
My, the Chinese trolls are busy here today!
They write better than the Latvian trolls.
China might get a chance to try out one of its new EMP weapons.
"usa military's 'lily pads' expansion may prove costly"
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2015/07/09/military-lily-pad-expansion-may-prove-costly/xrsDhm7wMpJj4eEMFljSQK/story.html
You're the first one I've ever heard mention this.
Surprised more haven't.
Let's hope too costly to maintain.
CabalA$$LickerLiarObama : 'O my a$$, dey have built islands of sand , dat is a grass violation of yumanity , bom' them (and loot their gold ;-)'
China's Regional Economic and Geopolitical Developments; An Interview w/ Dr. Pang Zhongying
http://thenewsdoctors.com/?p=522025
Debate: Are the U.S. and China Long-Term Enemies?
In a spirited Intelligence Squared debate on Wednesday night, Asia Society Policy Institute President Kevin Rudd and Kissinger Institute Director Robert Daly faced off with University of Chicago Professor John Mearsheimer and Heritage Foundation Senior Fellow Peter Brookes over this provocative motion: “China and the U.S. are long-term enemies.”
http://thenewsdoctors.com/debate-are-the-u-s-and-china-long-term-enemies/
None of the six countries that make claims in the Spratly Islands can definitively show sovereignty - thus the International Court of Justice in The Hague has never ruled in favour of any country regarding any claims made. All the players are signatories to the 1994 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) and are relying on its provisions to argue for 200 nautical mile exclusive economic zones etc. But UNCLOS does not and cannot address the underlying issue of sovereignty.
Therein lies the rub.
That region is the main approach route for any naval asset that US has in Australia, and with ASEAN allies.
China sure remembers the naval blockade of Japan which started war there.
I think China has all the right to take "defensive" measures.
Building large super aircraft carriers with war machines, floating on water and moving into waters near other countries is sure being more aggressive than building infrastructure that "could" be used for military purpose.
US also has similar islands in middle of Indian Ocean that it forbids all others from approaching.
US has to start waking up to simple truth. You better start a war if you are serious. If you only threaten and continue threatening, then expect defensive preparations. and then it will be all too late.
With South China Sea typhoons and HAARP isn't this whole discussion a little ridiculous?
For fuck's sake. HAARP. Why don't you call it by it's real name. THE WEATHER DOMINATOR!
Either you two are ignorant or hillarious.....trying to figure out which.
China's philosophy is ...another field of dreams...if we build it, they will come!