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Sanders And His Followers Are Not Outliers
Submitted by Jeff Deist via The Mises Institute,
Depending on one’s point of view, Bernie Sanders either held his own or boosted his chances against perceived front-runner Hillary Clinton in Tuesday night’s Democratic presidential primary debate. His message clearly resonated with the live audience, particularly his statements about raising the minimum wage to $15 per hour, global warming, and government-mandated paid childcare leave.
Progressives are emboldened by Sanders, who reportedly draws upward of 20,000 people at events. He inspires them with his attacks on capitalism, happily calling himself a “Democratic Socialist.” And his economic plans, while a mess, appeal to their radical (and disastrous) notions of egalitarianism.
Happily, there are murmurs of discontent — progressives like to eat their own. His crowds skew overwhelmingly white and older, leading to allegations that Sanders suffers from a whiteness problem. His home state of Vermont is laughably un-diverse and prosperous, home to woodsy limousine liberals who like the idea of urban living more than the reality. But nobody ever lost a political race purely for hypocrisy — and while Bernie’s brand of socialism might fade with the Birkenstock Boomer crowd, Occupy Wall Street millennials stand waiting.
Regardless of whether Sanders ultimately secures the nomination, the size and energy of the Bernie phenomenon should not be underestimated. If anything, libertarians consistently misjudge the degree to which socialist thought is deeply rooted in the American psyche.
Like Sanders, millions of American progressives hold these deeply statist and authoritarian beliefs:
- changes in climate threaten human extinction;
- fossil fuels should be banned, and alternative fuels should be mandated;
- wealth and income should be forcibly redistributed;
- no individual should earn more than a set amount of money each year;
- welfare and entitlement programs should be vastly increased;
- whole industries (healthcare, education) should be nationalized, while others (energy, banking) should be regulated to the point of de facto nationalization;
- some form of global government should be installed;
- a global wealth tax should be implemented;
- private ownership of firearms should be banned;
- anti-discrimination legislation should be applied to private religious organizations;
- racial, gender, and sexual orientation quotas should be mandated on both public and private employers;
- certain types of speech should be criminalized;
- certain criminals should be subjected to greater penalties if motivated by “hate”;
- social justice should be pursued by any means necessary; and
- government should attempt to engineer equality of outcomes.
These ideas, and the people who hold them, are not outliers in America. There are millions of rank and file progressives, mostly registered Democrats, who believe exactly as Bernie believes. They may prefer to vote for Hillary Clinton purely as a tactical matter because they are unsure the country is “ready” for full socialism, or because they think Hillary has a better chance of beating the hated Republicans in the general election.
But average progressives and Democrats agree with Bernie Sanders across the board, whether they plan to vote for him or not.
Do average Republicans and conservatives agree with Ron Paul? Do most registered Republicans really advocate eliminating income taxes, abolishing entire federal agencies, repealing the Federal Reserve Act, ending all foreign interventions, and drastically downsizing the US military? Are most conservatives, in their hearts, radically anti-state? The answer is no. Most conservatives are only nominally less statist, often more corporatist, and almost invariably more militarist than progressives.
The reason is simple, though we tend to forget it: the twentieth century was a radically progressive century. Income taxes, central banking, social insurance schemes, demand-side Keynesian economics, and Wilsonian internationalism — all radical ideas — have become entrenched articles of faith over the past 100 years. When we talk about politics or economics today, we do so within a thoroughly progressive framework.
The entire progressive agenda of the last century, which would have sounded outrageous to the libertarian-tinged ear of the average American in 1900, is now merely the baseline from which all government action originates.
That’s why abolitionist libertarians are on the defensive in modern political discourse, while grandiose progressives are on the attack: the default position in American politics is for government to do something.
So we shouldn’t downplay or minimize the success of progressives in shifting the landscape dramatically in favor of the state over the past century. Progressives never went away, despite the rhetoric of Ronald Reagan or Milton Friedman or Bill Clinton. The era of big government is still here, and it always was.
So what should libertarians do, in an absurd progressive world obsessed with supposed global warming, inequality, racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and privilege, ad nauseam?
The answer could fill a book, but let me suggest we start by freeing ourselves of the burdens of politics. Our battle is for hearts and minds, not votes. While Democrats and Republicans fixate on candidates and their supposed policies, libertarians are free to remain psychologically and emotionally detached from the whole sordid process.
And with that detachment comes freedom: the freedom to inspire, educate, and influence other people of good will without the divisive cloud of partisan politics creating suspicion and distrust. Once people know you’re not simply making arguments to support “your guy” — or any guy — they tend to view you more impartially and hence more favorably.
A new era of liberty, peace, and prosperity will not be won at the ballot box. It will be won at ground level, individual by individual, as progressive ideas crumble in the face of unsustainable government debts, unsustainable government wars, and unsustainable government entitlements.
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They can all do the kabuki. In the end, JEB=CIA=Next POTUS >> http://bit.ly/1NBoR7S
Hillary:
"I'm Hillary Clinton.", "I have been proud and privileged...", "I'm the granddaughter of...", "I think about what we need...", "I have spent a very long time...", "I've traveled across our country...", "I've put forward specific plans...", "At the center of my campaign is...", "I have specific recommendations about...", "I want to do more to help...", "I believe in...", "I also believe...", "I'll have a chance...", "But for me, this is about...", "I will do everything I can..."
In short: I, I, I, I, I, I, me, me, me, me, me, me,
Bernie:
"I think most Americans understand...", "The middle class of this country...", "Millions of Americans are...", "...our campaign finance system...", "Millionaires and billionaires are...", "Today, the scientific community is...", "we have a moral responsibility to...", "Today in America, we have more people in jail...", "African-American youth unemployment...", "Hispanic youth unemployment...", "It seems to me...", "What this campaign is about is..."
"libertarians consistently misjudge the degree to which socialist thought is deeply rooted in the American psyche."
After Obama, Wilson, Bush I and II, Nixon, FDR, not a fucking snowballs chance in hell.
I thought that statement was ridiculous as well.
Humans are raised in families, wherein, during their most impressionable years, their welfare and safety is looked after by benevolent dictators and resources are doled out according to need. To each according their need, from each according to their ability.
"FREE SHIT FOR EVERYBODY!!!!!!" - Bernie Sanders. "Free!!!" Nightmare. Moron.
#SOCIALISTCURMUDGEON2016
Here's an idea: All you progressives pack your bags and go start your commie utopia SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!
But then who will pay for their "free" stuff if all of the productive people aren't forced at gunpoint to participate?
You've been paying for bankster bonuses for how long now- at gunpoint?
Wouldn't it be better if that money actually went to the people?
When in the history of Socialism have the leaders of said Socialist system ever made it so that money "went" to the people? Good grief are people gullible! You want money to go to the people? Shrink the size of government and stop it from taking their money in the first place.
free sh-t party vs fox news party
doomed
Well I undestand how difficult it might be to start a new party when one spends most of their time imparting their (ahem) wisdom in comment sections on the web.
Let the people keep their money to begin with. If it never goes to the government in the first place it won't go to bankster bailouts, nor will a small fraction of the scraps need to be redistributed "back to the people" after the government gets its cut.
There’re no ”money” in your capitalist casino economy. Only IOU’s printed (written on a computer) by your private ownership class. You’re in a class war and you’re losing. The fact that so many ZH’ers are bowing down to their capitalist Masters and are supporting the regime that have made US a danger to humankind is a text-book example of controlled opposition. They spew an ideology of oppression (capitalism) as if it could be a system of liberty. All real anarchist/libertarians fight the oppressive nature of capitalism and all other forms of illegitimate authority (often represented in political institutions – like states).
Libertarianism (the perverted version in US) is sponsored by the same oligarchs who you think you oppose.
It's true that fiat money is a problem. I should have said let the people keep the fruits of their own labor, regardless of what fiat currency or commodity they choose to trade it in for. It sounds like you are not at all in favor of letting the people even keep the fruits of their own labor (please correct me if I'm wrong). You can also believe that any political ideology is controlled by oligarchs or not; at the end of the day all that matters is whether or not an ideology is in keeping with Natural Law.
Natural Law, which we are all bound by regardless of what we individually choose to believe or support, indicates among other things that it is unjust for any individual or group of individuals (be it the state, the borg, or some other collective) to take the fruits of an individual's labor through the iniatiation of force. True capitalism is in keeping with Natural Law, and I do agree that the US doesn't have any form of true capitalism. However socialism in any form, controlled by oligarchs or not, generally requires a collective to *initiate* force against an individual for the "common good." If you are advocating some other form of socialism in which this is not the case I'm all ears. I can fully respect any anarchist view that doesn't require the initiation of force. However, if some group of individuals *voluntarily* chooses to conduct their own business with gold, a paper currency, or some other form of IOU's (again this is not the case today because it is not voluntary), then it would be unjust for any collective to initiate force against those individuals to prevent them from doing this.
If on the other hand you are merely advocating a voluntary form of anarcho-collectivism that doesn't initiate force against indviduals who choose not to be a part of it, then I have no problem with that. I wouldn't myself be a part of it, but I fully respect your right and others' rights to have a separate community that lives that way.
All the Bernie haters need to fess up to this: we already have *socialism* in this country: it's for Exxon, Monsanto, Google, Bridgewater, the Beltway, Lockheed Martin, and JP Morgan. Bernie wants socialism for you and me instead. I'm for it.
You're good with letting the IRS take care of that for ya huh?
The logic makes you feel all tingly, doesn't it? "Because the corrupt-to-the-core multinational corporations are getting away with it, I want some of that sweet, sweet gravy too!". God help us
"But then who will pay for their "free" stuff if all of the productive people aren't forced at gunpoint to participate?"
That's the whole point of going Galt, and why Atlas Shrugged was written.
Starve the fuckers. Can't steal "free" shit from someone who isn't there...
And for the shit that is "free," well...everyone remembers John Galt for becoming a recluse, and Francisco d'Anconia is a pretty memorable character that fucks over the socialists at their own game, but everyone forgets that Ragnar Danneskjold's methods were just as effective, if not more so.
Become a pirate today. Steal the "free" shit back.
"A new era of liberty, peace, and prosperity will not be won at the ballot box. It will be won at ground level, individual by individual, as progressives..."
are cut off, hunted down, sterilized, stuffed in ovens, and otherwise exterminated.
I am in favor of keeping what you earn, but the "many thousands of trillions of US Dollars" in stolen wealth must be returned to those from whom it was stolen; humanity.
http://divinecosmos.com/
https://s3.amazonaws.com/khudes/scan0013.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEV5AFFcZ-s
http://www.SiriusDisclosure.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0gVLv5eg4Xg#t=...
sanders is a lifetime politician who believes, like his constituents, that folks like him are smart enough to tell everyone else what to do. plus, he's an israelite. i like the guy with the hair and the shapeshifting wife.
Rabbi Sanders only serves these constituents
http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=12031
He wants to tax the banksters to pay for college education
What's wrong with that?
Better to educate than incarcerate
"It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men." - Frederick Douglass
FFS...what good will that do? They create money out of nothing. How about killing the Federal Reserve and taking that ability away from them? You want to go to college? Pay for it yourself or study your ass off, get excellent grades and get a scholarship. What's wrong with people paying their own damn way?
This IS the problem. Rather than ending and eliminating or at least trying to minimize the corruption, they want to tax it,fine it, convert its evil deeds to goodness. It is madness on the face of it as it actually justifies and rationalizes the theft. It also equates true productive work with this criminality by punishing both equally. It's insane, but they don't care because ultimately they see anyone who actually strives and works to advance themselves as corrupt or at least mentally deficient undesirables. People who strive to achieve are damaging those who choose not to, hurting their feeling. Another hate crime.
this entire article is ridiculous!
Ask a progressive "What gives one person the right to rule over another?", "What gives one person a right to another person's labor and/or its fruits?", "What gives one person the right to determine what is fair and, thus, create laws to impose this fairness?"and watch his face contort as he searches his mental database for the pre-programmed answer to be regurgitated and finds nothing.
If you get away from debating policy and instead go to natural rights vs rule over one person by a majority of others, you can piss off a progressive in no time.
"I do not dispute their right to invent social combinations, to advertise them, to advocate them, and to try them upon themselves, at their own expense and risk. But I do dispute their right to impose these plans upon us by law – by force – and to compel us to pay for them with our taxes".
The Law, Frederic Bastiat, 1850
You want a commune, an intentional community, a co-op? Combine your resources and go form one. No resources? Something to work for, then.
Nothing wrong with compassion, charity: your money, your business; my money my business.
Otherwise, in the immortal words of Pink Floyd:
"Money, it's a hit
Don't give me none of that
do-goody good bullshit.
Money, it's a crime
Share it fairly
but don't take a slice of my pie"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxgFKSCtIeo (great sound quality)
Ask a US-libertarian and the answer is money/ownership.
You left out a GIANT among socialist/progressive presidents: LBJ.
The ’libertarian’-branch (libertarian in the Koch-sponsored version of the term = the meaningless version) of ZH-readers/commentators are a sad bunch. You simply don’t know what socialism means and still you blame everything on it.
Socialism is an economic system distinct from capitalism. Capitalism is based on the private ownership of the means of production. Socialism is based on the public and/or the common/social ownership of the means of production.
In other words: you can have A CAPITALIST ECONOMY WITH 100% income tax. It’s NOT SOCIALISM as long as everything productive/profit generating is privately owned. The taxes in a capitalist economy used for redistribution and/or expansion/war (inwards or outwards) does not magically change the underlying economic system into a socialist economy.
On the other hand (and this will probably make a lot of the inferior intellectual minds hurt) YOU CAN HAVE A FREE MARKET AND NO TAXES IN A SOCIALIST ECONOMY – if the means of production are socially owned and the socially/commonly owned entreprises are made to compete in a market.
The fact that so many makes the obvious mistake of equating statism/big states with socialism tells a lot about the impact of corporate propaganda on the US population. A state can be a capitalist state if it supports/upholds and/or is controlled by capitalists (=private owners of the means of production. The latter version is called a fascist state. What you’ve got (and have had for decades) in US.
And all those who keep writing: free stuff-army, taken other peoples money etc. If the economy was socialist the production/profit would be social to begin with = it should not be taxed.
I don't give a fuck what you think socialism is. I care about what people who call themselves socialist do.
What people do IN THE NAME OF.....
ISMs are simply a religion used by those who want to rule over us as a means to induce us to surrender OUR liberties to THEM.
Defend FREEDOM. NOT IDEOLOGIES.
OK, so who in US (apart from Bernie Sanders) call themselves a socialist?
Freedom is an (even more than ideologies) abstract philosophical concept. Do you mean de jure freedom (rights granted by law) or de facto freedom (the actually ability to form ones life)? The two versions of freedom are rooted in ideologies.
Snap cards, social security, Medicare. and Too Big to Fail. And some try to claim this is Capitalism ?
A very perverted, crony style of socialism, but socialism it is.
"Depending on one’s point of view, Bernie Sanders either held his own or boosted his chances against perceived front-runner Hillary Clinton"
Hello? I don't know of anybody who thought Sanders held is own or boosted his chances in the debate.
The amount of redistribution in a capitalist economy is irrelevant to whether or not it’s capitalist – it’s still a capitalist economy if the means of production are privately owned. See comment above.
Most of the ‘social programs’ in US are made to benefit the capitalists (= the owners of private insurance companies, private hospitals, private food-stamp-business etc.).
A lot of the ZH-crowd have a misunderstanding of capitalism as being free market and small or no state. That’s one version of capitalism. And a version of capitalism that naturally will end up in the shit show we’re in today.
The accumulative nature of free market capitalism (winner takes all) will result in resources, power and ownership being concentrated in fewer and fewer hands (think Monopoly). In the end the meritocracy hailed by the supporters of free market thinking will be replaced by a neo-feudal rentier-economy (again, what we see today).
All good in theory, but... We don't have a 'Free market' here, and haven't had one in quite some time. And it doesn't matter what type of 'system' you propose, it will be subject to the flaws of human nature - i.e., the irrestible urge of a man (or group of men) to Force their will upon others, either directly or through their favorite proxy, the government (Congress & the courts).
Our system, albeit inperfect, at least in principle provided the divisions and bullwarks against such abuse. Then again, it was a 'compromise' (and a rotten one at that) that Federalism won the day, but that is a discussion for another time.
Berine: Millionaires and billionaires wong, but if Hillary wants to have her own email server as secretary of state to hide what she is doing even though anyone else in the government would go to jail for it... I'm okay with that.
Berine: Millionaires and billionaires wong, but if Hillary wants to have her own email server as secretary of state to hide what she is doing even though anyone else in the government would go to jail for it... I'm okay with that.
wong? I don't get the reference.
Sum Ting Wong.
Ancient Chinese warning.
_
The idea of "FREE" is always going to appeal to some of the population. Which is why the Founding Fathers restricted voting to property owners only. We should have kept that model.
I am rather amazed that you were down voted on that statement.
Standard Disclaimer: Just goes to show you how far the Republic has fallen.
Apparently the FSA are just rolling out of bed, logging into ZH, up voting "free" stuff, down voting earning stuff.
Anyone who is stupid enough to choose their own master deserves the right to vote.
Yes. So far, I've heard two people promoting Sanders, both flat broke single moms under 30. They may as well say, "Hey, let's hire the J hit man to steal some more free stuff!"
socialism is very populare with the ladies, specially the single mom kind, and also the over-ththe-hill catlady kind.
Voting is irrelevant when the ‘owners of the country’ select who can be voted on – and later how the votes are being counted (Diebold). Second, all information, “education”, news etc. in US are controlled by the private ownership-class you glorify = there’s no informed public debate during (or after/up to) an election (only massive corporate propaganda).
But your comment suggest that’s how you like it. Being controlled by a handful of owners.
Enjoy your fascist police state. You deserve it.
Every system that can be created by man can be corrupted by man. Quit your bitchin. Vote, hide or shoot.
I agree with the first part of your comment.
In relation to the latter: I’m just an observer of US-politics (as a citizen of the world I care what goes on in the evil empire). Luckily I live in a society with a well-educated and somewhat well-informed population + we have no obesity-problem (the chicks are beautiful! ;-)).
Ha, ha. The (C)riminals (I)n (A)ction are losing control and will soon be silenced. You moron supporters of such evil will get your due, as well. Bush doesn't have a prayer. His lineage is one of evil deception and he will also have his day in hell. You are a fool, BlueViolet.
Feel the white hot Bern
So what should libertarians do, in an absurd progressive world obsessed with supposed global warming, inequality, racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and privilege, ad nauseam?
"...What they need, and what we need is a convincing plan. We need to develop a plan that keeps people who are disillusioned with politics engaged in the battle for liberty. We need a plan to end the state that avoids the pitfalls of politics that I have outlined above. We need a plan that will change the political system, but not be captured by it, nor follow its self-serving rules. We need to find a way to impact the state, while remaining outside it. We need to form an independent force. What we need, really, is a mechanism for revolution....
Read an actual plan here:
http://anarchiststandard.com/2015/08/a-plan-to-end-the-state-how-to-crea...
In the past, it ended with a sword, today it ends at the barrel of a gun.
Standdard Disclaimer: History is a bitch.
In short, you need a LOT of Americans to SELF-ACTUALIZE. Good luck with that friend. In 40 years I have been able to lead maybe 1 person to this. And even he is 'tempted' by his spouse.....
Translation: 2% need to control how the other 98% eat, sleep, & breathe
Yea, he's New World Order as fuck, if for no other reason that the brainwashing apparently has worked.
Hillary already has the Super Delegates sewn up. The DNC is 100% all in on The Beast. (See Drudge headline)
The Establishment GOP will not let The Donald get the nod in spite of his popularity, so count on Jeb! (snore) or Rubio or Fiorina.
And nope, the current electorate is all for the FS as in FSA.
Simply, Rubio and Fiorina are un-electable and there is No More Room for Another Bush.
Your next president is Hillary and she will 100% continue the raping and pillaging of the middle calss with corparate and FSA welfare flowing a-plenty.
The DNC will not let Bernie in because he, just like The Donald could hamper the Gravy Train. Not allowed in the Land of the Free.
I fail to understand how anyone, regardless of politics, can vote for Hillary. She's clearly another in a long line of bought and paid for candidates who answer to the oligarchs. I give credit to the Republican voters who are supporting Trump, and the Democratic voters who are supporting Sanders, because at least it suggests that a decent chunk of the public is waking up to this fact. But I agree with you that TPTB won't let it happen, even if "it" would hardly be a solution.
Don't underestimate the sheer amount of total idiots living in the US Rand.
Read anything off the Huffington Post - you'll be sad. Hillary lovers abound there. Mush mouth assholes, and Hillary deniers of all she's done.
Fucking assholes - and we live amongst these fuckers.
Add that Cuntalry has Wall Street and the MIC in her cankley pantsuit pockets, and I fear this rotten cunt might be elected/selected.
What difference does it make now? I'm sick and tired of being handed one shit sandwich or another.
The only difference it will make is when Americans are finally not well fed.
Think about it, would you send yourself or your children to die in war for the MIC, for professors who whip themselves because they cringed when they first saw the transgendered Bruce Jenner, or for the cronies who are getting rich through the Federal Reserve Ponzi? IMO the reason Obama isn't pushing more aggressively for war over Syria is because he knows that the public is completely burned out on the wars and cultural death taking place; there is no more fighting spirit.
So if we hit some real difficulty, i.e. the checks stop coming in and the FRNs lose buying power, do you think millions of patriotic people are going to jump up and bail the government out? I doubt it.
That will likely be the point where it turns but there is another hunger and many souls are crying out in anguish even today. Not by bread alone.
You answered the Syria question. BHO is the Welfare prez. GWB was the Warfare prez. D=Emphasis on Welfare. R=Emphasis on Warfare. This will continue until the dollar evaporates.
Oh really? R = warfare
WWI Wilson
WWII FDR
Korean War: Truman
Vietnam: LBJ
The Fed and Income Tax: Wilson
Detect the Pattern, moron?
No FED or income tax means no welfare or warfare and very limited government on all levels. Its that simple!
What about communities forming Red Herring Groups, Anti-Corruption Groups, and then publish and reveal the names of the groups, foundations, corporations, that fought against Anti-Corruption.
Perhaps, there could be local laws against these fiends.
But would think we have watchdogs, activist groups, anti-corruption groups already. They just don't get air time, community support, media support, national recognition.
So why form Anti-Corruption groups if people are already doing the work and being ignored.
Some kind of support, focus, can be redirected from sports games, circuses, to support Alternate media and Watchdogs.
Most people live in denial.....they don't want transparency or the truth, as that forces uncomfortable choices. People have given their jobs away, not because they are so stupid as to not know that to buy imports and hiring illegal labor would not bring them to this point, but because someone was willing to lie to them, tell them that what they did, did not matter.
People largely know the truth in their gut, they just don't know the specifics, and deliberately so, as that would stress their denial too far. Something for nothing works that way. It requires willing denial of reality as everyone KNOWS THERE IS NEVER SOMETHING FOR NOTHING. All we really need is for someone to lie to us, to offer an alternate reality that we can rationalize.....after all, we deserve it, we are ENTITLED to it, whatever it is.
I fail to understand how anyone, regardless of politics, can vote for Hillary.
But according to you if Hillary does win (or when any of the other clowns win) the world will be better place than if individuals were free to make their own choices about their own lives.
Free choice many times creates bad results, which IS the rationale of progressivism. Free choice can fuck you, but it is still better than someone else fucking you, unless you are just looking for someone to blame. People who vote for Hillary are fucking themselves AND fucking ME. But even still, I would rather have to choose that fate than one of absolute tyranny, which appears the only other choice. Unless yo believe anarchy is an option,which you may as well hope for the utopia of full communism as both have the same chance of providing the liberty you seek. I will contend that the tyranny of democracy is marginally better than just plain old tyranny.
No one ever said that individuals make perfect decisions. That's not the yardstick.
Unless yo believe anarchy is an option,which you may as well hope for the utopia of full communism as both have the same chance of providing the liberty you seek.
That simply isn't true. When individuals interact they can achieve more than they can alone. Anarchy allows individuals to interact voluntarily while all statist regimes demand compliance to the whims of an elite class. Since only the individual can determine if his needs have been satisfied it's obvious that only a voluntary system can provide the ability to organize and produce results which meet the criteria of satisfying the individual participants in the system.
Cowering to TPTB is their source of power! Refuse to bow to their control! Otherwise you are a slave!
Alexis de Tocqueville
We'd all pay $1000 to get that Liberty back.
Sad Destiny.
Money buys US Congress and all of our US Institutions. It looks clear to me.
Money, It's a hit.
If we had free Justices in a free court system, they would rule in favor of liberty more often and against big money interests.
The time is coming to take my liberty back and for you to take your liberty back. It would be nice if we could be on the same page at the same time but I will not go to my grave as a slave.
knukles, for almost all your posts, I agree word for word. Here I disagree. Leave some room for Chance, if not GOD.
New World Order or bust
Always the black and white analysis with the Mises Institute. There are many who don't want either rampant statism, or rampant oligarch controlled society, or both (our current system). But it's not an either/or, Mises. If Mises had an intelligent argument to make, it would not need to couch its proposals against straw men.
"But it's not an either/or, Mises. If Mises had an intelligent argument to make, it would not need to couch its proposals against straw men."
You're an authority on the subject of capitalism vs socialism are you? If it's all the same to you I'll take Mises's thoughts & opinions over yours...lol.
https://mises.org/sites/default/files/Socialism%20An%20Economic%20and%20...
Wouldn't want to think for yourself or derive your own ideas, after all. For that reason among others, you probably didn't notice that this article is not about "capitalism versus socialism." It is an attempt to paint all non-Mises believers, and certainly anyone who supports Sanders with a very broad and inaccurate brush. Many Sanders supporters like him because he wants to end the prison industrial complex and scale back the MIC, for example. Many others are sick of the candidates who say they will end the TBTF bail domination of our economy, while they take TBTF bank money for their campains. Many others are still in the Matrix and simply hate Hillary, so support him. But according to Mises, anyone who supports Sanders wants to fly a soviet flag over DC.
Just because Mises thought like me and you think like Marx is no reason to get your panties tied in a wad. In fact, much of what Mises wrote he went into with an open, analytical mind (that is to say, no bias one way or the other) and came to the conclusion socialism would fail wherever it's tried.
And it has or will.
"Many others are sick of the candidates who say they will end the TBTF bail domination of our economy, while they take TBTF bank money for their campains."
Well they're dumbass's then, who don't know what Sanders proposed when TSHTF last time...lol...he proposed to TAX THE PEOPLE to make the debts to the banks good.
//////
Someone thinks I'm lying? Show yourself and I'll prove it you socialist prick.
That scumbag is going to have to be dropped.
They got him to run to make it appear Hillary! wasn't being annointed by the Deep State and the cloaked communist, doddering old fool sucked it in hook-line & sinker thinking America is ripe after all their contrived bullshit.
He acts as if THE LAST EIGHT TRILLION IN GOVERNMENT DEBT has occurred on someone elses watch and has no idea where it came from. Sanders is a senator and I defy ANYONE to show me a piece of legislation he ever voted for to REDUCE federal government taxation.
Moar Faaarrreee! shit for everybody, right?
Maybe Jonathan Gruber was correct ;-)
The scumbag in question is LTER.
Hope-n-Change springs eternal ;-)
Hey, don't mess with Pope!
Which is actually a fairly good representation of LTER's statist views.
So nmewn makes a not-so-subtle threat against LTER (not the first time and not just against LTER either) and you then directly call for LTER to be killed or knocked out. That's what "dropping" means.
Great students of Liberty you guys are *slow clap*. More like showing your true selves for the fucking Oppressors that you are. The Randroid types who demand Liberty for themselves but couldn't give a shit about Liberty for others.
LTER makes a perfectly valid point. The world is not black and white; the Mises Institute shills talk as if it is; they are therefore wrong and (by their own Praxeological method), they can't refute what I just said.
How about this (which I know LTER agrees with): fuck all systems that lead to Oppression, simple. That includes the Communism of the USSR and the Capitalism of the USSA.
And don't try that "TRUE Capitalism has never been tried" bullshit with me, that's just the "no true Scotsman" fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
It seems like some folks here that identify as "libertarian" have a hard time with other folk's liberty when those other folks disagree with their point of view. Sounds kinda totalitarian and statist to me.
And with that, let the down votes rain down upon me LOL
"So nmewn makes a not-so-subtle threat against LTER (not the first time and not just against LTER either)..."
You do realize that only in some socialized-fascist, kafkaesque, Orwellian world would you attempt a rebuttal against me by beginning your statement with a lie? I did not threaten him, it simply didn't happen, we have an entire written record above that shows it didn't happen for all to see and fortunately we don't live in your fantasy world.
It only happened in your mind.
But I do appreciate you and "your kind" showing everyone else what absolute mental cases you are ;-)
Reading the articles from the mises institute sound like a broken record about socialism and communism. If you honestly think that socialism and communism are our problems then apparently you don't understand the word "cronyism."
Socialism, communisim and fascism are all crony based systems. Liberty has no cronyist elements at all.
Awesome point. But you left out capitalism - capitalism may not be "based" on cronyism, but it sure as fuck seems susceptible to it.
Again just because I criticize capitalism doesn't mean I am an advocate of either communism or socialism. I know it's hard for many libertarians to grasp that concept. But it's true!
I didn't leave out capitalism. Capitalism is an economic system in which individuals invest some of today's profit in order to be more productive tomorrow. Free market capitalism (which is a function of individual liberty) is a political system in which individuals are free to interact freely with others in economic matters just as they are free to speak or to worship.
Of course freedom can be corrupted but it can only be corrupted by those who seek to make others less free or by those who are conned into giving up their own freedom to an elite class. To say that capitalism can be corrupted is like saying that sometimes a bird craps on your apples. That's not a flaw in apples. you just want to be sure that you wash them off before you eat them.
Free market capitalism = political system?
I would have called it an Economic System.
But if you add lobbying and Gift giving by businesses, I guess it is a political system. And business owners and manager vote and influence the government offices.
Just thinking out loud.
I'm not sure where you find free markets. Maybe local farmers markets are free market capitalism and even retailers that buy from farmers and wholesalers.
The Exchange Markets seem as fixed as ENRON Energy Monopoly.
1996 - Energy Deregulation (W. Clinton, followed by ENRON Scandal)
- Visited a Truck stop, found coca cola selling at the fountain for $1.74 for 24 oz cup
- Concluded that soda at a truck stop sells for more than gasoline
- Pepsi and Coke are monopolies that produce at much lower costs than Petroleum even with higher packaging costs
How can you have Free Markets with Lobbying enshrining Anti-Trust Behavior?
"freedom can be corrupted"
I beg to differ. Freedom cannot be corrupted because it is not 'wed' to any 'thing'. By its very nature it cannot become corrupt. If you become corrupt you are not free.
I understand "cronyism" perfectly well sport, just like those well known capitalists Fidel, Hugo, Bloomberg and Buffet.
///////
Wup! forgot Peron ;-)
No, apparently you don't. Neither do a lot of "libertarians". If you did you would realize that every economic system - whether communism, socialism, or capitalism - is corrupted by cronyism in some form or another. And if you were capable of original and more importantly, critical thought, you'd see the impact cronyism has had on this experiment called America and capitalism has been far more detrimental than the influence of socialists or communists.
I am not an advocate of communism or socialism. But I have to wonder, if capitalism is so fucking awesome why is it so easily corrupted - whether through cronyism, progressivism, socialism, communism, egalitarianism. For such a robust way of addressing the markets it seems to be a pretty fucking fragile system.
For the amount that libertarians talk about self reliance and responsibility they sure like to blame the 'state' for all their woes. As well, for as tough as all these libertarians profess to be they sure seem to get their panties in a bunch when anyone criticizes their precious mises institute which, in my opinion and many others here, does nothing more than write predictable anti communist/socialist drivel.
Capitalism and freedom have fucking nothing to do with each other. Look at the history of capitalism from Italian city-state banking, to Dutch and British mercantilism, to monopoly trusts of the 19th century, it's one long story of states acting as strongmen for 'money makes money' oligarchs. That libertarians suck on the dick of capitalism as though it were about self-determination, freedom, individualism, etc. is mind-bogglingly obtuse.
Yes and there was a time when the US used it's miltary to put down striking workers. I guess it was pretty ugly, but now can't remember the specifics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_union_busting_in_the_United_Sta...
Union busting with police and military force
For approximately 150 years, union organizing efforts and strikes have been periodically opposed by police, security forces, National Guard units, special police forces such as the Coal and Iron Police, and/or use of the United States Army. Significant incidents have included the Haymarket Riot and the Ludlow massacre. The Homestead struggle of 1892, the Pullman walkout of 1894, and the Colorado Labor Wars of 1903 are examples of unions destroyed or significantly damaged by the deployment of military force. In all three examples, a strike became the triggering event.
"If you did you would realize that every economic system - whether communism, socialism, or capitalism - is corrupted by cronyism in some form or another."
If you can't recognize sarcasm (me calling the crony's Fidel, Hugo, Bloomberg, Peron & Buffet "capitalists" when in fact everyone knows they're socialist/communist) then perhaps you should work on YOUR critical thinking skills.
Touché. It was late at night. It hit me when I realized you mentioned buffet and Castro in the same sentence. My apologies.
No problem, I figured you just didn't get the connection between greed & power I made ;-)
If you did you would realize that every economic system - whether communism, socialism, or capitalism - is corrupted by cronyism in some form or another.
Socialism and communism require cronyism as they depend on an elite class which will determine the redistribution of wealth. Free market capitalism does not require cronyism and in fact ceases to exist when cronyism is present.
Saying that free market capitalism can be corrupted is like saying that water can be polluted. Does that make water bad in your opinion? Why not put the blame on socialism and fascism which are the most common corrupters of free market capitalism? They constitute the pollutant while the freedom of individuals to voluntarily organize in order to better accomplish their goals is the desired outcome.
in my opinion and many others here, does nothing more than write predictable anti communist/socialist drivel.
So if someone spoke out repeatedly against water pollution and offered reasons why polluted water is bad and suggested ways to avoid water pollution would you complain?
'Systems' are merely ideas that 'people' become attached to. Therefore, a 'system' in itself is not corrupt or 'crony'. Only a 'person' can be 'corrupt' or 'crony'. By the same token, being 'attached' to a system means all 'action' (e.g. behavior) from that entity that is attached will yield the fruit of the attachment---which is corrupt. Therefore, be 'righteous' in your action and do not act from a 'system', but from FREEDOM...
"If Mises had an intelligent argument to make..."
Well, I thought Mises' "Human Action" was just chock full of intelligent analysis. I see that LTER meant Lew Rockwell's (helluva good guy) Mises Institute, and in the case of this article, Jeff Deist.
But the words, "If Mises had an intelligent argument to make...", comprise the most shockingly stupid phrase I've seen yet.
Hey, it could be worse. It could be a PHD thesis about minimum wage......
LTER, that is my beef with 99+% of all the fuckers I know, especially here on the Hedge. They've got their conjunctions wrong. Not OR. It's AND people. Al Gore is an elitist globalist dousche AND humans are catastrophically shitting their nest. Israel is fucked up AND the Palestinians are fucked up. Hillary is a cunt AND Donald is a fucking sociopath. Donuts are bad for you AND donuts are fucking awesome. Very few things in this Universe, particularly things related to the activities of a bunch of uppity hominids, are as absolute as most try to frame them.
^ this
I ain't wasting a couple of hours watching lying lips flap for either side.
Then I guess you either don't care, willfully remain ignorant, and probably won't vote.
In that case, Bernie may well have a chance, for the truest words spoken at the CNN self-lovefest were his. Went something like: I am a Democratic Socialist - I stand for bla, bla, and getting rid of so many prisoners, legalizing grass, narrowing the prosperity gap by taxing the rich and very rich, and … These programs can become reality and I can be elected if only a few more voters get to the polls. It's coming. The biggest get-out-the-vote grassroots campaign you have ever seen.
And Bernie Sanders has a real shot - because of so many care-NOT ex-voters; many will proudly comment on why they will not vote in this coming election. The American voter is not as likely to be swayed by attack advertising in 2016 because of rising cynicism and deep Obummer loyalty. Blue Dog Democrats.
Look at the voter turnout last congressional election - well under 50%. How do you think the Community Organizer got elected seven long years ago? Community Organizing to get out the vote and vote Democratic. Just like Chicago in the 50s and 60s - Vote Right and Vote Often. Or, gather a busload of fellow travelers and vote, vote, vote.
Perhaps Jeb and the boys at Diebold can rip off, sorry, suppress the votes in enough precincts to throw the election into the SCOTUS ring, but history rarely repeats. Wonder when Bernie will be anointed by the Grand Poo - Obummer.
If you're not going to vote, and convince others not to - Democratic Socialism is on the way. Mark my words. All it takes is enough people in the streets, and perhaps social websites and Tweets will serve as electronic streets.
Got popcorn? Goes good with Merlot. Who will Sanders pick as VP ?? Webb ? LOL LOL
Hell, he's to the "left" of Bath House. If he gets in we'll have civil insurrection.
So what example do we have of command economies working?
I would have thought that an economy, much less a society associated with it, was an open, evolving, complex system. There must be many technical papers describing control systems for those, right? MIT and Harvard give degrees?
https://thinkpatriot.wordpress.com/2015/02/26/complex-systems-and-the-hu...
But maybe this is the phenomena at work :
https://thinkpatriot.wordpress.com/2015/02/09/in-the-age-of-propaganda/
Black market will spring up.
I thought Bath House already started one.
>Sanders And His Followers Are Not Outliers
No, of course not, it's informed and rational voters who are outliers.
Informed and rational voters? Not saying there is no such animal, but I've not seen one.
Do Not Vote. Don't play their game. Don't decend into the tawdry, sordid, reeking world of 'politics'. When you vote, you lend your consent to their theft, extortion, locking people in cages, their wars. Thoughtful people do not vote, despite what you have been told.
That, and its a waste of time.
Bullshit
Self-centered, selfish, and arrogant - deserve to be buried under the coming flood of voters wanting to take your money away.
Just what are you going to do then ? Not vote some moar, most likely.
Moar?
Do Not Vote. Don't play their game. Don't decend into the tawdry, sordid, reeking world of 'politics'.
The refusal to comply is going to have to come to much more than just not voting and soon.
Unlike Minnie Pearl with the price tag on her hat, Hillary keeps her "for rent" sign on her blouse.
Should be moved down about 18 inches - more appropriate.
Personally, I look forward to out new Chinese overlords. While most men of my age identify with the young men in Red Dawn, I saw the mayor and thought, "Yeah, I could be that guy."
All of these candidates are fools or clowns, or foolish clowns. There is a part of me that just wants to get on with the collapse.
You will taste just like dog tacos the red ants.
libertarians consistently misjudge the degree to which socialist thought is deeply rooted in the American psyche.
It's not the American psyche, it's a human trait - GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! If I don't have to do shit to get what I want, then BRING IT! That guy has more than me? That's not fair! TAKE IT!
It takes a good upbringing, intelligence, and a knowledge of history to know that something-for-nothing never ends well.
Everybody wants everything all the time.
.
Work back from there.
Some of us have simple tastes and discernment.
1st Rule of Reality: Someone always has to pay for the "something."
Exactly. People say "equality" because it sounds better than "Gimme".
Wow, I would have never thought that WS had agreed to give back all their bailouts.... Well done...
AIPAC Explained for Goyim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0hdbywFsv4 (1:36)
Didn't watch it, don't have to ...
Peddle your anti- and hate someplace else, dipshit. WTF, where do you people come from that cannot make it through a day, an hour, without interjecting some sort of Jew-baiting, nigger-hating racist ridicule into every and any web screed.
Please die.
soon
"Like Sanders, millions of American progressives hold these deeply statist and authoritarian beliefs:"
This list is straight from FOX/CNN news desks!!
You get the point...
Yet another article from the mises institute which rails on and on about socialism when what this country (and the world) suffers from is cronyism. Whether it's crony capitalism, crony socialism, crony communism, etc...
The fact that many self-professed libertarians seem unable to get this is astounding to me. While sanders is a self-professes socialist, at least he seems to understand the problem with cronyism more than any other candidate. That doesn't mean I'd vote for him. I might take this article more seriously if the mises institute could show where libertarians and sanders share common ground. Then point out the weaknesses of his other ideas. THEN maybe the libertarians could come up with a REAL PLAN on how to educate and attract more voters. All the libertarians sound like now are the grumpy old man yelling at the kids to get off his lawn.
I am 60 and conservative. When I turn 62 1/2 I will become a progressive.
The free shit army is busy eating your lunch. Better hurry up.
Control-P takes care of that - lotsa time.
/s
please. lot more trumps than bernies (stalinists).
Bernie has the same problem Ron Paul had/has.... He's a pussy and doesn’t have the stomach to bludgeon his opponents. He all but bent over and planted his lips on Hilary's ass the other night. Your not gonna win like that nancy boy. He could of drove a stake in that vampire bitch and he wussed out. She's the biggest crony wall st. dick sucker ever and he stood there like a punk bitch and didn't bury her with it, when its the 800 lb gorilla. He's loser and will not go anywhere but 2nd place. Sad truth.
Ron Paul is a man which is something you will never be. I didn't see you take on the establishment on national TV. Will there be a replay of your heroics or will I just have to wait for your next round of conquest?
I dare say Bernie Sanders would bring more competition to this marketplace than it has seen in forty years. He's a socialist yet he is a stronger supporter of COMPETITION in the market place than 95% of his peers. Most of the shitheads on TV scream that he is a socialist while they support the TPP and the very UNCOMPETITIVE status quo. Capitalism only works if there is adequate COMPETITION. I like capitalism but it goes straight to hell and drags everyone down with it except for a few 'select' winners unless there's COMPETITION. Socialism is also a matter of degree ranging from the gigantic nanny state cesspool of communist socialism to very minimal social programs and everything in between. It's very possible that overall Bernie Sanders supports LESS socialism and NOT MORE overall. How can this be? Well we could cut socialism for corporations by 100% and take 50% of that money and redistribute it between the poor and middle class. If that were done there would actually be LESS socialism than we have right now and cutting socialism by 1/2 is a worthy goal. It's a good plan. Why not? Cut welfare for the rich by half, then take the other half left over (leaving the rich with zero welfare, fuck 'em) and redistribute it to the poor and middle class. The rich don't lose anything except welfare which they didn't need anyway and we get a net reduction is social spending!
"Like Sanders, millions of American progressives hold these deeply statist and authoritarian beliefs: "
I need to keep learning about Sanders over the next year or till he craps out.
I hope Sanders is not a Hillary Clinton Statist and can't see that at this point.
Sanders whole life seems directed at reforming the statists and the advantage of the privileged. But for him to struggle for 40 years doing this, clearly he had to adopt common sense solutions, real world solutions, real world type reforms.
Author has a bias, but will take me some time ti figure out if he is giving us real info.
>I hope Sanders is not a Hillary Clinton Statist and can't see that at this point.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
The moment Sanders did this:
Sen. Bernie Sanders delivered one of the most enthusiastic applause lines of the first Democratic presidential debate when he came to Hillary Clinton's defense over her use of a private email server during her time as secretary of state. After CNN's Anderson Cooper asked Clinton about her upcoming testimony in front of Congress related to her emails, she offered the same answer she has repeatedly given in response.
"I've taken responsibility for it," she said. "I did say it was a mistake." She then employed her recent campaign strategy of linking the criticism of her email setup to the heavily politicized House Select Committee on Benghazi, which she described as "basically an arm of the Republican National Committee."
But before everybody moved on, Sanders weighed in. "I think the secretary is right," he said. "And that is, I think the American people are sick and tired of hearing about your damn emails." Clinton smiled and thanked him, and the crowd roared its approval.
Well, wasn't that a big enough CLUE for you?
The Debasement of Financial Ratings Agencies, Financial Reports, Financial Accounting, Financial Auditing, US President, US Congress, and all Wall Street Banks... is more important than trying to topple a major power player in the US Presidential Race.
I think that is what Bernie Sanders meant.
He said, lets get into discussion about the problems and solution.
"What didn't' you understand about that?"
- But yeah, Hillary intended to break the law, break national security protocols, break government policy, since she thinks she is a privileged Elite
Let's pile one more fucked up idea on top and see if that works.
Good points. I must be one of the only libertarians who actually sort of liked Bernie in the debate, not because I agree with his bigger government ideals but because he at least seems more passionate and accurate in identifying the actual big problems with our current economic setup: the big banks and crony capitalists. I guess my thinking is if we aren't going to have any semi-viable libertarian candidates then maybe the next option is someone who might at least balance things out a bit. Kind of like fighting fire with fire.
What the hell is a crony capitalist? I think you mean thieves and liars or oligarchs if you want to get fancy. If I claimed to be Mother Theresa while I punched your face would you say, "See, that's the problem with crony Mother Theresas?" Don't let your enemy define the terms of the fight or you're done for.
-
"Libertarians" support the immigration invasion which is turning what was the USA into the USSA. Sure there are a MINORITY of whites who vote demonrat, well brainwashed by the Televitz and schools sure, but the reason Obama won twice is IMMIGRATION.
Jews and Jewish organizations lead the gun control campaign
Sanders campaign apologizes for threatened arrest of pro-Palestine activists outside Boston rally 2015-10-06
With all the immigrants now in America you may see Hyena Rodthem Clinton as the next President. Supreme Court will be totally Bolshevik within another 12 years: MAX.