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Clinton Considers Mandatory Gun "Buy-Backs" - Ignites Confiscation Concerns
Just days after talk of President Obama's gun control executive orders, and following a disappointing showing at the Democrat Debate, Hillary Clinton has jumped back on the populist bandwagon suggesting that, as Fox reports, it is "worth looking into" mandatory gun buy-back programs like ones in Australia. "This validates what the NRA has said all along," said Chris Cox, executive director of The NRA, with Clinton's comments making “very clear” that the underlying goal of gun-control advocates is confiscation.
Hillary Clinton said Friday that mandatory gun buy-back programs like ones in Australia are “worth looking into,” sparking criticism that the Democratic presidential front-runner would, if elected, impose gun-confiscation efforts.
Clinton made the comments during a campaign stop in Keene, N.H., when an attendee asked about Australia’s 1996 and 2003 buy-back programs that collected roughly 700,000 banned semi-automatic rifles and other firearms.
“I think it would be worth considering doing it on the national level, if that could be arranged,” Clinton responded.
“This validates what the NRA has said all along,” said Chris Cox, executive director of the National Rifle Association’s Institute for Legislative Action. “The real goal of gun control supporters is gun confiscation.”
Cox said Clinton’s comments echo recent ones by President Obama, making “very clear” that the underlying goal of gun-control advocates is confiscation.
...
"Hillary Clinton just doesn’t get it," Cox said. "The NRA’s strength lies in our five million members and the tens of millions of voters who support the Second Amendment.
"A majority of Americans support this freedom, and the Supreme Court was absolutely right to hold that the Second Amendment guarantees the fundamental, individual right to keep and bear arms," he added. "Hillary Clinton's extreme views are completely out of touch with the American people."
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As a reminder, there is no correlation between murder rates and gun ownership/control...

Of course, when someone points out the lack of a correlation here, gun-control advocates are quick to jump in and say "but you didn't control for this" and "you didn't control for that." That's true. But what I do show here is that the situation is much more complicated than one would think from absurd claims like "states with fewer guns have fewer murders" and so on. Apparently, claims that new gun laws are commonsensical can't be true if the relationship between gun laws and murder rates require us to adjust for half a dozen different variables. In fact, by looking at the data, I could imagine any number of other factors that might be more likely a determinant of the murder rate than gun ownership.
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As we noted previously, The Democratic Party's focus on guns has drawn fierce criticism from Republican White House hopefuls, who largely say mental health, and not gun control, is the correct policy response. They say Democrats are using the shootings to roll back Second Amendment rights.
Meanwhile, just like in 2012, the threat of more gun control is having just the opposite effect of what the president intends, and as we reported earlier this week, gun sales are soaring in the aftermath of the most recent cluster of shootings. In fact, "gun sales this year could surpass the record set in 2013, when gun purchases surged after the December 2012 Sandy Hook murders."
In the first nine months of this year, 15.6m of the background checks needed to purchase guns from federally licensed sellers have been processed, compared with the 15.5m applications in the same period in 2013, according to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System.
Why the surge? Simple: "Once the public hears the president on the news say we need more gun controls, it tends to drive sales,” said Mr Hyatt, who owns one of the largest gun retailers in the US. "People think, if I don’t get a gun now, it might be difficult to get one in the future. The store is crowded."
Because if you want something to be truly broken, just invite the government to "fix" it. Which is not to say that everyone is a loser - two clear winners from Obama's repeated attempts to enforce gun control are shown in the chart below.
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Its Treason. Come get mine.
Funny, she might end up making a bunch of new "single issue voters". A lot of people, like myself, who swore theyd never vote for another republican again end up grudgingly doing it anyway just because of this issue, just to keep that vicious thundercunt out of the white house
Let's be absolutely clear. It doesn't matter how many people comply with any such program there are those of us who will not comply. Strenuously.
The irony here, Billy, is that Clinton is a product of the very system you advocate, which is allowing the wealthy elite to call the shots. I realize that in your unicorn world there would be no government, but even if you removed government and introduced unicorns, the same guys who give money to Clinton and who own the MSM would be creating and enforcing laws you don't like so they could maintain the power they took by force (not by offering phony candidates in elections).
The best way to keep your freedom of gun ownership is to get together with other individual gun owners and use your collective power to keep them. You know, collectivism. Having a Constitution, and We the People, and such.
Couldn't agree more. Freedoms have to be defended in congress not in your living room. The longer gun owners pretend this issue will go away, the sooner they'll loose 'em. Noone said it would be easy to halt TPTB's plans.
The cartoon is cute except the smirking criminal getting ready to rob and or shoot the "law abiding citizen" is a government employee.
Don't criminals deserve a safe working environment?
Do a web search for "burglar sues homeowner."
Prepare to be dumbfounded.
Also search Youtube for making a "pipe" shotgun. Cost: Aprox $7. I may build a fucking truckload to "sell back" for $100-150 each. In the end, we'll see who assrapes who...
Haha... or if you're really lazy just 3D print Liberators...
So she's desolving the Secret Service?
F*cking. C*nt.
WOULD BANNING FIREARMS REDUCE MURDER AND SUICIDE?
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2225517/posts
FBI: More People Killed with Hammers, Clubs Each Year than Rifles
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2013/01/03/fbi-more-people-killed-with-hammers-and-clubs-each-year-than-with-rifles/
Gun Homicide Rate Declines 49% Since 1993
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/
I'll give up my gun when the POTUS can walk the streets of America without his 100 troop bodyguard+ bullet proof/bomb proof SUV + half the city's police force blocking off the surrounding streets.
Until then I'll cc.
All it will take is a few smaller neighborhoods, who band together and kill any goons who attempt to go door to door "enforcing this". Four likeminded neighbors, can stop any attempt at confiscation. Once the peons doing the confiscating realize that they might not be coming home that night, the confiscations end. They aren't going to send black hawk helicopters to pick up my Remington Speedmaster...
These school shootings are all fake, every one of them.
The last one was a joke, they get worse each time.
The kids in the room nextdoor said they never heard any gun shots, never saw
any wounded or any perp.
Same old crap with laughing crisis actors.
Guy shot five times and no blood, he is seen in a pic flashing devil signs in the hospital with his creepyass
friends.
Tom Servo,
Hello neighbor, I like your way of thinking!
Sincerely,
Boattrash
I know all my neighbors, and they are majority ex-mil vets, coast guard, navy, marines. The wife is retired navy and is the best shooter i've seen with a handgun. We will go down fighting.
Sadly. Probably entirely correct.
Yeah you sound shovel ready alright.
Just for poetic justice, I hope the cunt gets pushed out a window.
Pipe shotgun. Now that is sweet. Tuck that little bit of knowledge away in the "just in case" compartment.
Go buy a bunch of non functioning junk semi autos. You'll make a fortune during a buy back. Plus you get to be the "good citizen" that "handed in their guns".
Guns don't kill people - governments do.
In Oz at the so called buyback centers the weapons literally were RE-cycled....out the back door and round to the front...what a lovely racket that was....now that John Howard has made us so much safer, the illegal/legal immigrants are better tooled up than the police in many instances...
Australians allowed them selves to be screwed by the gun buyback and we have yet to pay the penalty....glad I won't be around to see it happen.....Poor Fella my Country....
yeah, the weapon that the "supposed" martin bryant" used in tassie was a police confiscated in Vic weapon...prior
curious how it got out on the street for resale huh?
seems almost everyday I turn on the radio n someones got shot or drivebys
cos only the law abiding suckers hand their guns in
meanwhile the crims kept n added to their supply
worked did it?
pigs ass it has!
do NOT hand your guns in. no buyback no bullshit.
In Oz at the so called buyback centers the weapons literally were RE-cycled....out the back door and round to the front...what a lovely racket that was....now that John Howard has made us so much safer, the illegal/legal immigrants are better tooled up than the police in many instances...
Australians allowed them selves to be screwed by the gun buyback and we have yet to pay the penalty....glad I won't be around to see it happen.....Poor Fella my Country....
Shoot, shovel, and shut up.
Clint Liquor - " Don't criminals deserve a safe working environment ? "
They've got NYC, Chicago, and D.C. - what more do the bastards want ?
Freedoms have to be defended in congress not in your living room.
So if your home is invaded you plan on calling your congressman?
Let those tyrants get their tyrant on in DC. Just remember to keep score, so when the people roll thru the area to reclaim their Constitutional liberties, they can mete out justice to those who deserve it.
Theoretically, the risk of invasion should be reduced by maybe spending less money on wars in foreign countries but on people having less appetite for invasions.
If you really cannot provide jobs and homes for at least 50% of the overpopulation/stranded you might consider giving them free drugs. The trad drugs are not expensive at all and when these people then sit quietly in a corner enjoying their sedatives, they're not going to invade. Saves truckloads of money for policing, courts, and prison. Just imagine some of the mass shooters had had access to free drugs that calm them down, but not the expensive ones from big pharma.
Clinton has just given the elections to the Reps. Her choice.
No no, just like Mitt Romney and Obama she will "Etch a Sketch" into "If you like your gun you can keep your gun!"
"Freedoms have to be defended in congress not in your living room."
"So if your home is invaded you plan on calling your congressman?"
Apparently, he's naive enough to think he actually has a congressman.
Probably thought it'd all change when the new ones got in and got rid of the electronic spying & massively rip off obummer care too.
Or that Trump or Bernie will make it all better.
America is made up of mental children.
"The cartoon is cute except the smirking criminal getting ready to rob and or shoot the "law abiding citizen" is a government employee. "
Whether the criminal depicted is a hired govenment thug or just a low-life cashing in on the .gov redistribution scam (not declaring what he steals, obviously ) beyond their stealing on the down low doesn't matter: ordinary tax donkeys pay once if not twice for the privilege of being robbed.
"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation.”
Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
Sounds like it could have been written today, doesn't it?
This is why, even if you don't like guns and want to see outlawed, you should support the 2nd Ammedment. Because if you don't, what's going to stop them when they decide it's time to curtail parts of the Constitution you do like?
If you feel that strongly against guns, go get the Second Ammendment repealed through the proper, Constitutional path. If you win, that's fair game. Until that day "The constitution shall never be construed...to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." <--- notice it says "arms", plural. - Alexander Hamilton
""The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children"
Stating the obvious: "We must protect the children by loading them up with Trillions of Gov't debt and a mountain of unfunded liabilities. Its for their own good!"
Their biggest liability might be when their entire generation is stalked by the family members of the million or more people the U.S. has killed in the M.E.
Except at planned parenthood
Since our rights come from nature by virtue of us being sovereign individuals and since our rights are not "allowed" to us by other humans through some arbitrary power given to them by means of a system created by yet even more humans, they could repeal the whole fuckin Constitution and our rights wouldn't change. We would just have to choose to Live Free Or Die.
Fuck you, Hillary Clinton, you treasonous cunt.
I'm wondering how the brainwashing and social conditioning could have ever gotten so bad and so blatant in America and yet worked so well on all the clueless American sheep?
It is quite remarkable.
And MH nails it, that really is the core principle, the central issue involved here as when discussing any other natural right.
The federal government (or any other government for that matter...local or state or world) can only respect or restrict the peoples rights that are already there, rights you are born with.
It cannot and does not "grant rights" to anyone, it either recognizes the right as already being there or it doesn't. If they restrict it, it doesn't mean it's not already there, it only means they want to suppress it and are openly saying so.
Yes. I have rights simply because I am here, principally the right to be unmolested by others (including by a gang calling themselves "voters"). I have a right to such fruits as my mind and labors can produce. But it is also undeniable that I only have those rights I am willing to assert, kill and die for.
Anyone who downvotes this is a blithering idiot.
Nicely said ND. Tolerance requires intellegence though. Such is in short supply lately. Sadly.
only "precious" if they are living and used as pawns and propaganda... the unborn ones mean nothing to these in-human, barbaristic psychopaths
"...is a government employee."
"Employee" is correct - he is certainly not a "worker" if any, in fact, exist.
This woman and her husband break endless laws and they want to disarm law abiding citizens?
Good luck.
If our laws were really applied equally across-the-board, this Clinton couple would be serving life in prison.
Worry not. This is just a Clinton in election-mode, tossing a little red meat to the democrat voter.
Like when the Republicans say they're going to repeal Obamacare and balance the budget.
Mao summarized it best, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." Government power corrupts absolutely, guaranteed.
Guns don't kill people, politics does
If the average Chinamen had been armed, how many million Chinamen would have survived:
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/china/deaths2.html
Chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please.
Chinaman. Black. Illegal Alien. Retarded.
Fuck your political correctness.
Dude, he's just quoting a line from The Big Lebowski
I thought it would be somewhat obvious something was up, since there would be no reason to call a chinaman living in china an asian-american. Thanks for indulging me though, if I can get in a few Lebowski quotes every day I find this life to be a little more tolerable. It's like Lenin said...
Statistically speaking, the criminal should be a moniority. No need to be PC here gents.
migra, That doesn't apply to D.C. though...other than that, you're spot-on.
PS Fuck D.C.
Don't be a fucking ninny. Defending your freedom starts at home...if you wait for shit to get to CONgress, it's already too fucking late.
The irony here, Billy, is that Clinton is a product of the very system you advocate, which is allowing the wealthy elite to call the shots.
The lack of irony here is that you're lying through your teeth yet again. You are the one who says that government is necessary no matter how bad that government gets.
The best way to keep your freedom of gun ownership is to get together with other individual gun owners and use your collective power to keep them. You know, collectivism
The worst way to keep your guns is to not rely on the collective power of free individuals who associate voluntarily but to follow the LetThemEatRand program which insists that we need to hand over our freedom to an elite class composed of people like him and Hillary. I've said it before and I'll say it again: If you insist that an elite class give you freedom by taking your wealth and threatening you with violence then you should expect to be robbed and brutalized.
I realize that in your unicorn world there would be no government, but even if you removed government and introducted unicorns, the same guys who give money to Clinton and who own the MSM would be creating and enforcing laws you don't like so they could maintain the power they took by force (not be elected government).
In a free market one could chose their own security and adjudication providers. I would sign up with providers who guaranteed to protect me and my neighbors according to Natural Law: the right of the individual to be secure in his person and property and his right to self defense. I would not sign up with providers who told me that they were going to pass a whole bunch of laws that Hillary Clinton and LetThemEatRand would like to force down my throat.
Under such a system one could fire any provider who failed to live up to the agreement. If the provider did try to redistribute my wealth as you and Hillary would prefer I could simply fire them. If they shot my dog and blew up my baby I would fire them. Under your system you just have to smile and take it when they shoot down your family over a mistaken address.
Call the Anti-Police: Ending the State's "Security" Monopoly“We’ve been hired by three of the most upscale neighborhoods in Detroit to provide 24/7 security services,” Brown proudly informed me during a telephone interview. “People who are well-off are very willing to pay for Lamborghini-quality security services, which means that our profit margin allows us to provide free services to people who are poor, threatened, and desperate for the kind of help the police won’t provide.”
“Unlike the police, we don’t respond after a crime has been committed to conduct an investigation and – some of the time, at least – arrest a suspect,” Brown elaborates. “Our approach is based on deterrence and prevention. Where prevention fails, our personnel are trained in a variety of skills – both psychological and physical – to dominate aggressors without killing them.”
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2014/09/call-anti-police-ending-sta...
One simple question regarding your private security forces. What do you do when your private security force is overrun by the one in the next town or adjoining country that is better funded and has more weapons, and they tell you to drop it or else? Just have a shootout? Do you really believe that there is no better system than the guys with the most guns wins at a micro-societal level?
Or how about if your private security force gets a nuke and tells you the deal is off, give them your guns?
Detroit's Threat Management Center detailed in the link above exists along side many private and government security services and yet none of them has ever attacked it. Would you like to ask another question which better reflects a real world scenario?
Which real world, the one where Detroit has the rule of law or the unicorn version you suggest? Seriously, answer the question. If there is no government and thus no rule of law other than on a local level, what stops the neighboring warlord from taking your town? Giving me an example of a private security force that exists in the matrix of public police is like saying the pure zero government free market works if we have public courts to enforce contracts.
Self interest stops individual security firms from attacking each other just as it stops me from blowing away my neighbors and taking their belongings. Only a very small number of people attempt to kill and rob other individuals. They are known as criminals and politicians and they make up only a few percent of humanity.
Funny how you can be given a working, real world example of private security in action and find it to be less informative than the fears you imagine -- or more accurately, the fears that you want others to imagine so that you can continue to promote your elitist redistribution schemes.
So by your reasoning, self-interest kept Kings from invading other countries and taking their shit by force throughout all of history when there was no elected government. Got it.
You gave me a real world example of a private security force that exists in the United States, which happens to have a government and police that would react if they were attacked militarily by some other force. As I've said over and over, your entire philosophy is based upon normalcy bias, and you just gave me more proof.
So by your reasoning, self-interest kept Kings from invading other countries throughout all of history when there was no elected government. Got it.
A monarchy is a system of government. You are the one who insists that government is virtuous and necessary. Kings and presidents have the power to tax and conscript their subjects and force them into battle. A private security provider who attracts customers and profits by protecting the natural rights of its subscribers would have no such power.
Time and again you try to assail a system based on the freedom of the individual by giving examples of government crimes. You point out the danger that private security services and their subscribers could be endangered by attacks by government and yet you suggest that that proves the goodness of government and the failure of individual freedom and responsibility.
When individuals finally realize that being subjected to the crimes of the elite class does not protect their lives and property and they withdraw support for that system then who will outnumber whom?
Okay then, I'll just put all of my chips on the idea that all of humanity will wake up and decide to be free of leaders, and that no warlords or tyrants will come along to put a fly in that soup, and I'll stop advocating for collective action against the tyrants via elected government. Because no doubt any day now individuals will wake up all over the world and do what human beings have never done throughout all of human history, and stop following others. Great idea, Billy.
"humanity will wake up and decide to be free of leaders"
Ancap doesn't mean no leaders. It means no coersion. It is a form of judicial rule, but the people chose their own judges for individual disputes.
Once people try it, they don't go back. This is why no-one has been able to impose a government upon Somalia. All they have succeeded in doing is making it into a warzone. Even in the face of continuous outside aggression, they are more developed than their neighbors.
Somalia is run by warlords, not judges.
And currently America is not ruled by warlords? Or any other Nation State as far as that goes?
Perhaps Billy dreams. Perhaps LTER want an authoritarian system of Government.
There is NO SOLUTION.
As for me...
Who in the hell needs a gun? They do not penetrate armor.
I will rely upon my ability to create explosives, rockets, and poison gases for self defense when (NOT IF BUT WHEN) they decide to gut the Second Amendment...thank you.
Chemistry is just too easy after all.
Just how difficult is it to place a clay planter pot of Thermite on a Gas Meter and ignite it...for building removal? They are on every building in America.
Thank you US Government for teaching me how to remove buildings on 9/11/01 when the Twin Towers were downed. Thermite implosion...See how it all works out?
Isn't education wonderful?
Maybe that Planter can be placed on top of the Intake Pipe for Gasolone at the corner Gas Station. Keynesians will love that. That will increase GDP. Goodbye Gas station....along with a lot of other infrastructure. It can be done.
Yeah. Who needs a gun?
When the SWAT team comes a no-knockin', there is wisdom in incorporating chemicals and electricity into your home defense. You need 3 ways to kill the bugs when they enter your home. They are best equipped to defeat small arms fire, so if you go that route, you have to bring BIG guns (.308 OK, .338 better, .50 BMG best). They are less well equipped to deal with large quantitites of electricity, chemicals, and fire.
Flamethrowers are still legal in 48 States without background checks.
Considering that flame throwers are something like 1000+ year old technology, yeah, a ban would be useless anyway.
That explains California and Maryland laws I guess...useless.
Well...Thinking about it...any laws as they only provide penalties for people caught in violation.
Check this music El Vaquero...
Jon Anderson's Toltec.
Here is two cuts..."Building Bridges" and "Sound and Color"
You will like it as it brings about peace...
Sound and Color is more orchestrated
https://youtu.be/iU1K-9OISM4?t=22m14s
I'll just put all of my chips on the idea that all of humanity will wake up and decide to be free of leaders,
"I HEARTILY ACCEPT the motto, — "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe, — "That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have." -- Henry David Thoreau
Thoreau and I are doing our part while you keep backing the system which brought us Obama and Bush and Clinton and Bush...
and that no warlords or tyrants will come along to put a fly in that soup,
If the majority of individuals refuse to pay taxes to the tyrant and refuse to allow themselves to be conscripted into the tyrant's army then what's this scary tyrant going to do? Nibble your bum?
Because no doubt any day now individuals will wake up all over the world and do what human beings have never done throughout all of human history, and stop following others.
There you go again. The world is full of leaders most of whom are not elite government officials. Individuals follow these leaders because they make good decisions and give good advice. What makes you think that in order to have the benefit of a good leader that you must insist that that leader should enslave and attack you?
Fuckin-A, Billy
:-))
Yeah, he knocked LTER's teeth out in that exchange.
From another one of my posts on Yahoo today...
Public schools are not there for academic education. If they were then Sports would not be a required part of the curricula. Everyone is compelled to participate in Physical Ed classes and that is not aerobics but, more often than not, it is Sports.
Public schools exist to INDOCTRINATE. They are there to SOCIALIZE the Children. Andrew Carnegie and John Rockefeller were SOCIALISTS.
If you truly love your children then you will take the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to educate them and remove your children from Public Schooling on Monday
But most have children.because of the unintended consequence of intercourse.. They are not truly loved but RESENTED as an unplanned EXPENSE, a burden, since most parents are NARCISSISTS.
And you can thumbs down this to eternity in a vain attempt to bury it...BUT THAT WILL NOT CHANGE THE TRUTH, WILL IT?
Then you write...
If the majority of individuals refuse to pay taxes to the tyrant and refuse to allow themselves to be conscripted into the tyrant's army then what's this scary tyrant going to do? Nibble your bum?
In fact the ones who will do it are simply resenting the fact that I am pointing this unspoken truth, this taboo, out.Unfortunately the REALITY IS that most CHOOSE ENSLAVEMENT andMOST willcontinue to choose enslavement.
First...They know no better than that.
Next...They are INDOCTRINATED from a very early age to do just that.
Finally...Due to the Libertarian Non Aggression Policy...WE CANNOT FORCE THEM TO DO OTHERWISE.
You are in a Pipe Dream smoking the Hopium.
THERE IS NO SOLUTION.
You may want to accept it and deal with that. I am sorry. I really wish that I could tell you something different. But I cannot.
I used to be hopeless and then I started listening to Ron Paul. This led me to Rockwell and Sowell and Griggs and many others. The world is filled with good people. But you could likely use something more basic. May I recommend a little Norman Vincent Peale?
I am not writing that people are bad. I amnot writing that they are even stupid.
Yes I love Ron Paul's ideals too. And I am well acquainted with Rockwell. Sowell has more common sense than most people. Judge Napalitano never ceases to impress me.
In fact I enjoy your zestful idealism.
I have read Norman Vincent Peale.
But we are overwhelmed by the Matrix and the people trapped within. They do not see what you see. They are too programmed by their TeeVee Sets.
Besides...New England is currently leading those Colts by 34 to 21. Betcha they deflated those footballs again.
They are not here, reading this, and that is what they are watching.
There is no hope. They are PROGRAMMED.
It is funny...As I write this I am listening to The Tubes, "Remote Control" Album,,,by happenstance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Ww9GgFxq4
And maybe I can win a Color Television...
Look...look around. They are not going to change. They are genetically wired to follow the alpha leader...which more often than not is a warlording psychopath from Hell.
They are not bad. They are only human.
There is NO HOPE in that.
Humanity will do the same as in past. It will not organize for the greater good. It will tear itself limb from limb. Collective action... I can only dream. And maybe it will happen on some measurable scale that has some impact. But, I won't hold my breath. Rather. Failure will come from failure. Not from some opposing success. This time IS different. But no so different... if ou get my gist.
It takes a special kind of idiot to think that serfdom is the same as freedom.
"Kings" invaded other countries (quite rarely) because they had expendable people whose lives had no value to them. Under ancap, throwing away people like that would get you sued and you would quickly lose your position in your little fake military.
Also, you accusing someone else of normalcy bias in this context is really, really funny.
""Kings" invaded other countries (quite rarely)"
That's your retort?
Are you retarded? That wasn't the end of the sentance.
This one guy was talking about weighting people who are collectivist group thinkers at the bottom of a lake.
That one guy.
RIPS
LTER, at this point I just say power vacuums always get filled, which is what I think you're saying. This is the one thing dogmatic, ideological libertarians can't seem to wrap their heads around. Everything makes perfect, symetrical, unicorn sense until this fact is realized. I recall seeing an interview between Paul Craig Roberts and James Corbett and James was frustrating PCR who was making that very point. People don't see it until they see it.
The irony is that we share A LOT with the libertarians, I think, but not in the ideologically pure sense.
What I can't figure out is why this is not obvious to everyone who even has a rudimentary understanding of humanity (that power vacuums always get filled). But I guess not. In any event, thanks for jumping in the fray as you said it better than I did.
Before the internet and exposure to new/different ideas how many of us here were even half way around the track? People learn a couple things and think they've figured it all out. They can build a building, but don't notice that its foundation is in sand. You should take these downvotes as a badge of honor in this case for that which needs to be said.
Xeer existed in Somalia for some 650 years before the power vacuum got filled by technologically superior western invaders who could never truly conquer the people who knew too much of real freedom.
Your sounding like a real idiot T. Power vacuums get filled one way or another. It really is that simple. There is rarely a lapse. Just human nature.
LTER, at this point I just say power vacuums always get filled, which is what I think you're saying. This is the one thing dogmatic, ideological libertarians can't seem to wrap their heads around.
Of course power vacuums get filled, no one is disputing that. But libertarians and anarchists like me suggest that individuals can use their collective power to voluntarily organize themselves while dogmatic statists like you insist that individuals can only be organized through violence and threats of violence.
Please explain why you believe that individuals can't work together without being forced to do so. Government claims to operate according to the will of the people and claims to provide thing which people want and yet government accomplishes these ends (badly) by using force against it's subjects. Why is such force necessary? If people want freedom and security then surely they can make arrangement toward those ends among themselves without being threatened and robbed, don't you think?
Let me repeat my question in the most succinct manner: why do you believe that individuals can only be organized through violence?
I'm not a "dogmatic statist." I was stating it as a point of fact. People are responding to the realities of human nature and have formed up in history in various ways, coercive and otherwise, in response to that reality. I don't have to like it, it's just a fact of human nature.
People are responding to the realities of human nature and have formed up in history in various ways, coercive and otherwise, in response to that reality.
If you're willing to admit that individuals can obtain all the things which government claims to provide but do it through voluntary associations rather than through the violence of an elite class then why do you call libertarians "dogmatic?" If such a system can and does work as you say then why isn't individual freedom a viable personal choice rather than a dogma to be criticized in your opinion?
Furthermore, if you realize that you can get security and economic opportunities through voluntary associations rather than by following the likes of Obama, Bush, Pelosi and Boehner then why in the world wouldn't you do so?
We're not so different, you, me and LTER. There's a story about the Spaniards showing up in a village in the New World and the Spaniard asks, "Who's in charge here?" The native says well I guess that would be the Chief here. "Bang!" The Chief drops, and he asks again "Who's in charge here?" The native nervously says, "Well now I guess it would be our Medicine Man." "Bang! bang!" And he asks again, "Who's in charge here?" And the native says, "I guess you are." That is human nature and human nature is a bitch.
Upon hearing that story my desire is to do everything in my power to not support those who claim the right to initiate violence as a measure of control. LTER hears that story and says that it proves that the only way that the natives can be free is to either welcome the Spaniards with open arms or to support the Chief who regularly cuts the beating hearts out of his subjects' chests to appease the gods.
Upon hearing that story, I am reminded that neither the Spaniards nor the tribes had elected government. There were two groups ruled by others, and the group that lost had lesser weapons, as it was throughout all of human history before we had elected government. At least we have you talking about voluntary collectivism in a good way, and not equating "collectivism" with socialism. Elected government by definition is voluntary collectivism, until it gets corrupted by the oligarchs you revere.
the oligarchs you revere.
If you oppose the oligarchs then why do you continue to support them? Oligarchs are currently in charge and have been for a long time but you still sing the same old statist song.
neither the Spaniards nor the tribes had elected government.
The elected government bails out the banks with your hard earned money. The elected government shoots American children while they sleep and blows up American babies in their cribs. The elected government pollutes the land with chemicals and radiation. The elected government records all your phone and Internet activity. The elected government uses your money to bomb foreigners for their freedom. The elected government insists that your teenage daughter must share her school locker room with a boy in (and out of) a dress. The elected government forces Christian bakery owners to celebrate gay marriages by baking wedding cakes. The elected government kills US citizens with drones. The elected government refuses to prosecute those who commit crimes and imprisons whistleblowers. The elected government serves its own purposes and their interests are not your interests.
I see your points very clearly. His, not so much.
Mr. Billy, you're hitting all kinds of home runs on this thread.
I gotta say LETR. I would hate to see you disappear from this site, please continue to comment here even if myself and others may not agree with your concepts. I've up-voted both you and Billy in this exchange, so keep up the good work fellas.
Perhaps, we all merely suffer from an inability to express extremely complex ideas in this medium.
As for me, I think we're all fucked unless we can get off this godforsaken planet. Just give me my little plot of homestead on Mars away from this shitshow please...
P.S. Thanks for the advice on the 9th Configuration...fascinating movie.
"Upon hearing that story, I am reminded that neither the Spaniards nor the tribes had elected government."
Don't know much about tribal governance do you?
I think that coersion is always a fact of human nature when you get enough people together. Which is why I believe that, no matter what we come up with, it is imperative that nobody has a monopoly on the use of force. I think that, during most of our expected lifetimes, we will be faced with a choice. Come up with something new, or look at the new system, figure out why it failed and build a V2.0, with the understanding for both that in a century or three, we'll still be at roughly the same point as we are today, regardless of whether we continue the course of industrial society, or whether that gets put into the pages of history.
+1. Failure to accept humanity for what it is, is just a recipe for another failed system. But, of course, no one can really be politically correct about human nature. Not even with millions of bodies on the ground - because the next false history will begin with whomever is standing over said bodies. It will just keep repeating until something more profound happens. It just wont stop. It is in our DNA. It has been proven time and time again. Written into our works of art. Etc. It is who we are. When we embrace it, it changes. As long as we deny it, it stays the same.
Nothng further needs to be said really. Everything else is just a part of the delusion.
Those who criticize "dogmatic" libertarians for naivete simply disregard the evils committed in the name of government. It is as if you think that evil done by government is somehow lesser than evil done by other entitities. Thinking in a shallow pond. The problem of evil is a real one for the libertarian ideal. It doesn't go away by naming the threat government.
That's easy: Blackwater. Next question.
"Self interest stops individual security firms from attacking each other just as it stops me from blowing away my neighbors and taking their belongings."
Yep. The psychopaths are mostly in government positions now and those that aren't are likely not too well organized to be much of a threat. There are more of us than them. And, in a government-free or very restricted government in society, we citizens would not be able to be lazy and let government take care of our safety etc. - things which are inherently our own responsibility.
"the rule of law or the unicorn version "
Why don't you get real?
WHAT is this 'law' bullshit you keep talking about?
You have to have honest government that follows laws as well as dictates laws to have that -and we DON'T.
It is YOU who are spouting 'unicorn versions' bullshit precisely because there is no fucking 'law'.
I'm not even going to fucking bother listing examples of blatantly illegal and unconstitutional bullshit that has been going on for years and goes on as I speak to illustrate my point because you have heard it all before from myself and others and you still don't fucking get it or don't fucking care.
DAMN!
I think you're still holding back, though.
Tell us how you REALLY feel. Remember, 'LTER' thinks Unicorns are nice, gentle creatures that ALWAYS abide by the LAW (as dictated from the Ivory Towers of 'jurisprudence'); as opposed to 'NATURAL LAW'.
PROBABLY a 'tax attorney', or 'corporate attorney' or something ('LTER', that is). He is still of the flawed opinion that 'working within the SYSTEM' (that was concieved for the sole purpose of subjugating, enslaving, and eradicating the majority of free humans on Earth) in order to BATTLE this SAME system (whose rules were set up by the Enemies in the FIRST PLACE) is STILL a 'viable' option.
He CARES, but he doesn't fucking 'get it'.
LTER cares but he's frightened. That's why he embraces his abusers and tells others that no one hit him, he just fell down the stairs.
IF you live on your knees you are gonna look at belt buckles and ass crack all day long. ...Knaves.
This neo-democratic/socialist/majoritarian bullshit is pulling many many more people down than it is lifing up.
IMHO, the neo-feudalists/oligarchs/corporatists are sequestering wealth via the statist construct faster than could be accomplished without it.
What the usurers and thugs can't accomplish on their own they can accomplish with a complicit/corrupt/bought government: and here we are.
Competition and violence are elemental facets of human existance.
Free will: use it or lose it.
LTER is a bot or paid opposition nothing more. It builds credibility and then uses it to attack any idea of individualism or self reliance. I have told you this many times.. It has evolved far too quickly from its roots..
It builds credibility and then uses it to attack any idea of individualism or self reliance.
That's correct. It didn't quite work today but his usual pattern is to make a populist statement or two garnering many upvotes. Then he degenerates into his statist twaddle and the tide turns quickly earning him more negatives than positives. But he keeps at it and I'm sure that there are a few people who are fooled by this Wormtongue who might otherwise have opened themselves up to a brighter future.
The same things that stops the feds from taking my town.
"Do you really believe that there is no better system than the guys with the most guns wins at a micro-societal level?"
Well, since government is nothing more monopoly violence, backed up by goons with badges and GUNS, it seems be exactly what you believe in, Mr. Randy-Rand.
And hence, a clear demonstration of the problem with diversity. In homogenous societies you tend to NOT get the kind of behaviour you are talking about. Only because government acts, or fails to act, or a combination of both, do we get this mixed up messed thing we have now. Furthermore, it is government that has worked for decades to institutionalize the plantation mindset that is so prevalent in high crime areas today. If we could go back to the worst cowboy days (sticking to US Americans, not natives) you would see even on the worst days we did not have the violence we have every single day now. Including the natives, you can thank the governments of England and the USofA for practically exterminating them.
All in the name of diversity, social justice, and fairness governments have killed hundreds of millions of people in recent centuries.
Thanks government.
If you can fit all of your guns in the back seat of a compact sedan, you are under armored.
If you can move all your ammo on a two wheel dolly, you don’t have enough.
Voluntary cooperation is not collectivism. Quit with the stupidity, you're embarrassing youself.
LTER's purpose is to confuse the weak minded but he also strengthens individuals like you who improve their analytical and rhetorical skills by using him as the punching bag which he unknowingly aspires to be.
Theres a HUGE difference between voluntarily working together to achieve a common goal, and mandatory central control and micro managing laws through threat of force. You know, a democratic Constitutional republic, with the "WE, the people" part being mostly voluntary, as opposed to progressives idea of "we the PEOPLE" enforced at gunpoint
How banal. It's only the mass hysteria maintaining the delusion of a social contract that The Elite have any capacity to subdue us. People are prisoners within their own minds now, so chains are not necessary. The coercive might of The State only exists because its legitimacy and necessity go unquestioned in common discourse. Even still, "three percent" you pinko fuck.
Many ancient empires, and The Catholic Church had a similar arrangment that lasted for a millenia, until it didn't. Your secular god is dying before our very eyes. Voluntary cooperation does not equate a paternal state or centralized authority.
The majority of white American males watch their NCAA, NBA and NFL trayvon thugs and gangstersand cheer like little girls. They are cheering on white genocides liek morons especially SEC alumni white ball fans in the SE USA. They cheer on their FSU Trayvon Heisman rapists too. Morons.
Until the public wakes up and unplugs TV and Zollwywood then they are dumb sheep. Conservative thinking Neo Con Fox News is your friend are delusional. TV is not your friend but the dumb sheep love it.
I wonder how much the NRA paid Clinton for those comments in order to 'validate' their fund raising efforts.
letthemeatrand....how about you do what you want to do and gun owners will do what they want to do. fuck your debate.....this isnt some academic theory. those that possess guns will be a force to be reckoned with.
pick your side asshole...
@ LTER: Cooperation not collectivisim! JO!
How about obligation?
http://www.abelard.org/e-f-russell/e_f_russell_php.pdf
We've entered a time period where common sense is now a super power.
Sounds good and all, Rand-eater.
But the collective have no bearing on my inalienable rights.
If 99% of the people turn to me and say I do not have a right to free speech, freedom OF religion, the right to keep and bear arms, the right to protest against the government, I stand against them.
Eff the collective you mention.
Only patriots willing to fight for freedom understand the resistance against tyranny that does not come from the leftist/collectivist mindset you advocate.
They join forces as individuals to protect individuality, not the rights that the "majority" (i.e., the collective) allow.
Without government, who exactly would enforce the laws? What laws?
No collective will ever defend gun ownership (or any other right) on a lasting basis, in a coercive system. It is simply contradictory. People in power fear people who are not in power, and wil do anything to remain in power. The regression experienced by the former Untied States is simply on a longer timeline to ZERO.
Having a Constitution, and We the People, and such.
Isn't that cute...a Constitution! Well, Hillary doesn't give a flying-fuck about your Constitution -piece of parchment written by a bunch of dead white guys...and she sure as hell doesn't give a rat's ass about a bunch of statistics.
You're right though, firearm owners have to get off their asses and raise hell in Congress and everywhere else.
Australian style mandatory gun buy backs? Go ahead, Hitlery.
And when the vast majority of Americans refuse to comply?
What then?
A few dozen Wacos?
I don't think so.
Waco 1 or Waco 2? The Texans complied like sheep to both. Texas white males love their Trayvon football and are easily manipluated like sheep.
Both Wacos were assasinations and you never hear a peep. Texans care more about their Trayvon thug/rapist ball players.
One Waco a week until there is a reaction.
So how many?
This is the red line. Make no mistake. They are prepared, FEMA camps, Jade Helm, militarization of police. We are prepared too of course. You want to see Americans unite, try this one bitch.
Scurry Jade Helm came and went. Much ado about nothing.
I didn't see them take the military equipment back, did you? It's all about pre-staging and getting ready to mobilize for pre-crime. It's much more advanced than you realize.
Beat me to it.
All the weapons, ammo, and mechanized equipment were used under cover of JH to pre-position materiel to be used when ordered.
All else I am afraid, has failed. We can still hope, but the timer has started. The PTB simply cannot have an armed citizenry if they are to achieve non-sovereign globalization. A case much like how Sharia law is 100% incompatible with the US Constitution.
Don't worry about China or Russia. The Enemy is within the gates; DC is the HQ of the coming violence against Americans.
Maybe a miracle can save us; let's hope so.
***
Don't think TPTB care either if they "lose" the coming war: The US will be what Syria looks like now, and that looks good to them. They do NOT want America to be sovereign or independent.
Your elected "leaders:" where are they? Lucre is more important than Liberty.
Operation Jade Helm was a cover for massive military re-positioning within the borders of CONUS in order to quell 'internal unrest' when the USD collapses and Martial law is declared.
YOU are a FOOL if you do not understand this event.
My friend sent me a picture of a huge vehicle that said "mass casualty" on the side, along with the FEMA logo. What are they getting ready for?
http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/coffee-break/ems/ems_2012_4.pdf
Looks like amberlamps to me.
Nope, sorry. It was all black and much bigger. Another fail.
It was all black and much bigger.
Now we are getting into some more interesting psychology. I kid, I kid. :)
Well, there is this, straight from .mil to you!
Civilian Inmate
o Provides Army policy and guidance for establishing civilian inmate labor programs and civilian prison camps on Army installations.Labor Program
http://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/pdf/r210_35.pdf
I guess that is always subject to change though, right?
Do note the use of the phrase, "currently limited."
To inflict mass casualties on us.
Mass Casualty? Probably a mobile crematorium that the scum dual shiti-z-en Ukrianians are using to despose of their dead troops. Their hapless conscripted troops just disappear. Kiev scum are just like USA Soros State Dept Nudelman leadership.
Cheer up chaps! The Houthi tribes in Yemen are tearing the shit out of the Saudis MRAPs, M1s and Bradleys.
Vlad is helping Christian Syrians. maybe he will help us out? Nah. Dumb white American males love their Trayvon thug ball plasyers and want to be slaves. Dumb pathetic fuxx who watch college and pro ball like cheerleader girlies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVSDxPo7KNs
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=209_1444139885
Keep stacking.
Also don't forget Bundy Ranch where the Bureau of Land Management employees (sic) were really Xe, Academie, Blackwater boys and it would not have worked out well for them.
The ugly MF'er at 1:22 is a merc who has been scene in either an Afghnistan or Iraq video. The douchebag with the Oakley sunglasses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_XqdQjTflc
That's Daniel Love. I still have the "Hello My Name is Domestic Terrorist" name tag, that they were handing out in the staging area. It was pretty hilarious, when everybody had the same sticker on their chests, old ladies, kids and just regular Joes. We grinned at each other, because no names were necessary, we were one, and that's all that counted.
The dollar will collapse as soon as we run out of zeros.
"The beauty of the Scond Ammendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
The problem with mandatory buy backs after changing gun laws is they start with Semi-Automatic and then progress to ban all other manual lever action guns that hold more than one round. By the time they are done we will only be allowed to each own 1 single shot .22 rifle for varmints.
Give them an inch, they will take a mile.
Also if this passes I could see a proxy war going on during another American Revolution with Putin doing 100 ton small arms ammo air drops over the US to support the Freedom Fighters.