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Americans Renouncing US Citizenship Soars To Yet Another Record High

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Simon Black via SovereignMan.com,

1,426. That’s the number of Americans who renounced their US citizenship last quarter according to the US government’s report just released this morning.

That’s a record high for a single quarter, easily beating the last record high set earlier this year, which beat the previous record high set in 2013.

 

This is clearly a trend on the rise, and it certainly raises the question: why?

What is it about the United States that drives so many citizens to leave?

Two main reasons:

The first group consists of people who just can’t take it anymore. Constant warfare, intimidation, and the steady erosion of freedom have pushed them to their breaking points.

They look around and think, “This is NOT the country that I grew up in.” And they renounce their citizenship in protest of a government they no longer want to be associated with.

But that’s a small percentage of former citizens.

For the vast majority of people who renounce their US citizenship, it ultimately comes down to a single issue: taxes.

And there are three categories of tax-motivated renunciants.

The first is wealthy Americans who want to end Uncle Sam’s claim on their income once and for all.

Some famous people in this category who renounced US citizenship include Facebook co-founder Eduardo Saverin, and singer Tina Turner.

It’s an expensive decision for this group, as the US government levies a nasty exit tax on their entire estate before they leave.

Now, this group is often held up as the villainous “tax traitor” who leaves America. But not everyone who renounces is a moustache-twirling billionaire.

There are far more people in the second group, what I call ‘Accidental Americans’.

These are people who, in many cases, have never lived in the US or potentially even never set foot in the US.

But simply by having, say, a US citizen mother or father, or being born in a place like the Panama Canal Zone, they became US citizens at birth.

There are countless people in this situation who lived their entire lives in peace. And then one day they received a letter from the US government demanding back taxes.

You see, the Land of the Free is almost unique in the entire world in that it has citizenship-based taxation.

In most civilized countries, the governments tax their citizens based on residency.

If you live in Canada, you pay taxes in Canada. But if you’re a Canadian citizen living in the Cayman Islands, you no longer pay taxes to Canada. Simple.

Not so in the United States. US citizens are obliged to file taxes wherever they go in the world.

And aside from an exclusion on the first $100,800 ($101,300 for 2016) of ‘earned income’, US citizens are also subject to pay tax on their worldwide income, regardless of where they live.

(Note ‘earned income’ does not include investment income. So if you trade stocks or FOREX, you generally pay taxes on all of your gains.)

So imagine you’re a Panamanian citizen who was born and raised in Panama, who just happens to have a father who’s a US citizen. That makes you a US citizen.

You trade stocks for a living, primarily on the London Stock Exchange.

The UK has no withholding tax on stock trading, so you pay no tax there. Panama is a territorial tax system, so you owe no tax there either.

But simply because your dad was a US citizen, the US government has its hand out for its ‘fair share’ of your worldwide earnings.

This has clearly propelled a LOT of people to renounce their US citizenship.

But what’s really obscene is that before they let anyone renounce, the US government forces them to settle the tax bill. Only then are they ‘allowed’ to renounce.

The third category of people is Americans living overseas who have been hit by a barrage of offshore compliance laws.

72-year old Donna-Lane Nelson is a great example.

Ms. Nelson was forced into renouncing her citizenship after her local bank threatened to close her account back in 2011 because of her US citizenship.

She felt she had no choice. And the bank had no choice.

Back then Barack Obama had just signed the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, or FATCA, into law, pushing banks to dump all their American customers.

Ms. Nelson was one of them. And faced with the prospect of having to live without a bank account, she made a difficult choice and renounced.

As she explained to CNN, “After I did it, I was so emotional that I threw up outside the embassy.”

These people aren’t multi-billionaires. Many of them are retirees or expats living on modest incomes.

And in many respects they’re not even people who want to renounce. They’ve been pushed out by their own government.

According to the US State Department there are 7.6 million Americans living overseas.

Altogether they would comprise the 14th most populous state in the union, just behind Washington and ahead of Massachusetts.

They receive almost zero benefit from the US government. They don’t drive on US federal highways, and they aren’t ‘protected’ by Homeland Security.

Yet they still have to pay for it.

Even if they don’t owe any taxes, they have to file a bunch of silly disclosure forms each year to the Treasury Department, sometimes having to spend a lot of money on accountants to file the forms.

Or, like Ms. Nelson, they get penalized for being American.

It’s understandable, though sickening, that these people are renouncing their citizenship; US citizenship has simply become too expensive to maintain.

Nearly 14,000 Americans have renounced their citizenship since FATCA was passed.

This is a number on the rise.

And it’s a sad reminder of the depths that governments sink to when they go broke, even to the point of chasing out their own citizens.

 

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Tue, 10/27/2015 - 16:35 | 6718221 Hitlery_4_Dictator
Hitlery_4_Dictator's picture

Traitors! Drone them.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 16:55 | 6718308 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Citizenship in empire is not so much value as Rome falls.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 16:59 | 6718328 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

If Rome is falling, make sure you are not in Rome......

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:48 | 6718560 corsair
corsair's picture

...or learn how to play a fiddle

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:50 | 6718572 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Boris is prefer accordian.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 18:10 | 6718644 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

6,000 leave each year?

So fuck all then?

There are 6,000 Syrians sailing to the Isle of Lesbos EVERY DAY and a dozen other islands receive thousands too.

When there are 600,000 renouncers each year then there is a problem. But I doubt that many Mericans even have a passport or know what a border is.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 18:22 | 6718675 nmewn
nmewn's picture

It took me only three weeks to renew my passport, record time, I was genuinely impressed. Now, if the US government would stop with the paranoia and quit spying on people and quit forcing people to engage in commerce and returned to capitalism and...well, you starting to get the picture? ;-)

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 18:51 | 6718773 SunRise
SunRise's picture

3 Weeks?  Someone in the State Dept. not liking you :)?

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 19:18 | 6718878 nmewn
nmewn's picture

lol...I fully expected that whole full 4-6 weeks they describe and then some, with questions & amendments for more information. Maybe they're trying to get rid of me now, after all this time, after being such "a good citizen" for all these years (sniff sniff sob) ;-)

Wed, 10/28/2015 - 05:43 | 6719992 dreadnaught
dreadnaught's picture

Took me about 2-3 weeks to get my very own first Passport

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:27 | 6718458 lincolnsteffens
lincolnsteffens's picture

US Citizenship is only being a member of the Federal corporation, a legal fictional person.

I am a Connecticut National as I was born a living being on the soil of Connecticut. All the former North American Colonies when they threw off the British Crown were independent Nation States. They banded together for common defense and worked out a system for trade among themselves without tariffs and laws somewhat similar to each other. All of the independent Nation States had to agree that The Constitution for the united states of America would be each Nation's supreme law of the land to which all their laws must conform.

So, technically giving up or renouncing US Citizenship means you no longer agree to be a part of the Federal Corporation. It should not mean you renounce your Nationality or your Constitutionally protected rights.

And therein Ladies and Gentlemen lies the fraud of the corporate State. We are all boiling frogs just about cooked

I do not consent.  

I am not a legal "person".

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:31 | 6718479 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

Renounce your citizenship. Stay here as an illegal alien. Get free medical care. Pay no taxes. Get out of jail free.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 21:34 | 6719347 August
August's picture

If you can pass as Hispanic, this would actually work quite well.

If you're NOT Hispanic, the key would be to live in a "sanctuary city", where it is policy that any local enquiry into your citizenship status is strictly forbidden; even then, if you look like a garden-variety whitey, they'd likley find a way to make a policy exception, just for you, just because.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:41 | 6718523 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Wait till Hillary/Billary get into the WH.

Those will be the numbers to see.  Hell, I may leave Dodge. altogether.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:52 | 6718583 schatzi
schatzi's picture

Hopefully you guys have a sense for numbers, because 1.5k p.q = 6k p.a. = 0.0002% of the US pop.

 

It's a fucking non-issue.

 

6k. That's how many Islamic migrants currently enter Germany per DAY.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 18:23 | 6718677 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Quality, not quantity.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 19:05 | 6718836 schatzi
schatzi's picture

Point taken

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 18:26 | 6718681 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Boris, your wit & repartee aside...

What is involved in an Amerikanski Expat getting Residency in, say, Kamchatka?  I'd imagine that the ca$hi$h requirements would not be so bad, and the climate not much different than in Alaska?  Except that its real estate and alcohol would be a lot cheaper than in Alaska.  From there, you can then take cheap flights for winter escapes way down south (Okinawa, Thailand...). For those with more ca$shi&h, they might want to be expats in Sochi, and rub shoulders with Russian VIPs and their stretchy & fit ballerina/gymnast girlfriends.

This seems like a nice biz opportunity for those ex-KGB or retired FSB chaps, I'd think.  Just make sure that local laws in Kamchatka will allow Amerikanski expats to bring all the G & A they want, lest it becomes a deal breaker.

Wed, 10/28/2015 - 10:40 | 6720888 markpower49
markpower49's picture

Most Americans are traitors for supporting the corrupt fedgov and taxation. I hope the US becomes a giant Yugoslavia with death and destruction lol.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 16:37 | 6718229 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

Infidels!

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 16:57 | 6718321 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Tina Turner ("What is love to do with it" fame) is leave, but Tina is long endure abuse from Mr. Turner or Uncle Sam.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:03 | 6718347 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

I would not put Tina Turner in same group as "Facebook co-founder Eduardo Saverin"

She had long lived outside of the US and considered herself something other than an American.  I would put her in the third group, the group that gets bombarded with hassles for information for BOTH Partners and indeed even family money.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 16:40 | 6718244 pine_marten
pine_marten's picture

They got my balls in a vice.  I cannot leave.  I suppose they will have brother rising up against brother soon.  How despicable. .........

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 16:47 | 6718282 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

What do you mean by "leave?" The state is but an abstraction, a body politic existing only in the mind. It has nothing to do with physical locations.

One leaves the state the instant they stop believing in it.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:52 | 6718579 Lea
Lea's picture

"One leaves the state the instant they stop believing in it."

Yeap, sure, buddy. Like one leaves the taxes the instant they stop believing in it, or leaves the police and law enforcement, or their student debt, or their mortgage the instant they stop believing in it.

Sure.

 

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 21:14 | 6719268 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Render unto caesar.....

Some of your items are NOT The State. The state is simply a tax farm comprised of imaginary lines on a map. One can exit the state by reducing or eliminating dollar denominated economic output.

Having any debt is an obligation to your creditors. If you don't like that obligation, default on it or live within your means. It is not The State, but it does violate the rules of Galt.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 16:41 | 6718249 Raymond_K._Hessel
Raymond_K._Hessel's picture

1426 people out of 320 or so million, eh?

Come on, Simon.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:20 | 6718422 Raymond_K._Hessel
Raymond_K._Hessel's picture

dear debbie downvoters - more people will die from accidents at Connecticut frat houses this weekend than renounced citizenship last quarter.

How about some fucking perspective for fuck's sake - the kind that comes from being aware of the tens of thousands crossing into the country every month, for example.

The headline should be "319,998,574 Americans still aren't renouncing citizenship, and fucking off to Belize to help build Simon Black's bunker"

Bitches.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:49 | 6718540 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

+1.  It's Chile, not Belize.  But point taken.

And Chile is one of the vassal-bitch states that are in PTT. 

So much for being 'sovereign' down there for long.  The long arm of the IRS will hunt you down on your Latin estancia also.  If you're the tropical type, I'd go for Cuba.  Before they march in there also.

p.s. At the practical/tactical level, I don't see why you need to "Renounce" anything, even if you plan to stay abroad for good.  The day may come that you will no longer get your SS checks, if you renounce.  And ask if Simon renounced his.  Spoiler Alert:  He didn't.  Unless he did so only very recently.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 21:50 | 6719384 August
August's picture

>>>I don't see why you need to "Renounce" anything, even if you plan to stay abroad for good.

If you don't renounce, you need to have a real good story for the IRS as to why you aren't dutifully submitting annual 1040's and quarterly estimated tax payments.

If you are an IRS-compliant US expat, you need to ask yourself just how many tens of thousands of dollars in compliance costs, how many man-days of personal tax-compliamce effort, and how many lost investment opportunities it will take to outweigh the convenience of occasional visa-free visits to an otherwise not-very-attractive country where some family and friends happen to reside.

Renouncing is always a somewhat complex, and very personal, calculation.  In my case, with every year that passes, I feel a bit stupider for not having renounced already.  FATCA is vile.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:43 | 6718533 swass
swass's picture

All-in-all, I agree with your rhetorical question.  While it is interesting that people are doing it, and why they are doing it, it still represents a small ripple in a lake the size of Superior.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 16:42 | 6718257 Pumpkin
Pumpkin's picture

If you won't stay and fight for your rights here, you won't somewhere else either.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 16:45 | 6718269 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Well, that's just the people who think filling out government forms is a viable path of escape.

Myself, I don't claim to be a citizen of anywhere.

Hostage perhaps, but a "citizen?" Since IANAL, I've no idea what the term even means (nor am I willing to hire a lawyer to find out).

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:41 | 6718527 Pumpkin
Pumpkin's picture
Amendment XIV Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside

 

There.  That is what it means.  It means, you deem yourself subject to the jurisdiction thereof.  And you actually are not.  Most are well outside of their territorial jurisdiction.

The history of the 14th revels this.  It was passed to give released slaves standing in some court (the southern states gave them no rights), so in exchange for some rights (very limited, and not unalienable), they became subject.  Something no one born within any state, needs to do today.  We have unalienable rights, and they are far superior to the limited rights of freed slaves.

No lawyer needed.  They'd lie about it anyway.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 18:41 | 6718735 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

You do need a lawyer... if you believe that what you think carries the weight of law.  It doesn't matter what you think  (And the 14th Amendment is not the exclusive source of law defining or concerning citizenship.)

FATCA is an explicit rejection of exclusively territorial jurisdiction, that has been acceded to by almost every sovereign State by virtue of bilateral intergovernmental agreements (basically a treaty, and relevant since both the globalists (ATT) and corpratists (ISDS) want to torpedo Reid v Covert and reinterpret the Supremacy Clause).

 

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 16:45 | 6718271 Raymond_K._Hessel
Raymond_K._Hessel's picture

where ya gonna go - France? They're further down the right hand side of the curve than the US is.... led there largely by the same hostile elite:

"The absurdity of France’s celebrating itself for free expression was vividly highlighted by this week’s decision from that nation’s highest court, one that is a direct assault on basic free speech rights. The French high court upheld the criminal conviction of 12 political activists for the “crime” of advocating sanctions and a boycott against Israel as a means of ending the decades-long military occupation of Palestine. What did these French criminals do? This:

The individuals arrived at the supermarket wearing shirts emblazoned with the words: “Long live Palestine, boycott Israel.” They also handed out fliers that said that “buying Israeli products means legitimizing crimes in Gaza.”"

https://theintercept.com/2015/10/27/criminalization-of-anti-israel-activ...

...just sayin'. The specific "topic" here isn't really the point - the attack on free speech by a well organized minority is the point.

If free speech is up for grabs in France and the US because Zionists are allergic to certain facts... how safe is any other 'right'?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoaZFMXSLQc

ADL/AIPAC uber alles?

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:22 | 6718430 Max Steel
Max Steel's picture

Stating Israel's crimes is a criminal offence now ? France pretty much heading towards US like AIPAC shitshow.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:51 | 6718577 Raymond_K._Hessel
Raymond_K._Hessel's picture

of course.

and commenting on this absurdity immediately results in one of this websites assigned hasbara trolls 'insta-junking' it...

not because they don't think it's true...

but because they know its true, and somehow think a downvote means a thing.

lol.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 16:48 | 6718285 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

What's wrong with dual citizenship?  Just asking.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 16:56 | 6718309 zvzzt
zvzzt's picture

Basically everything. Nothing to gain and lots to loose (from an IRS/income perspective). If you have a UK/US citizenship you need to 'declare' your income in both coutnries. Failing to do so will result in a severe fine and shit loads of paperwork. Note that these rules probably (not sure) are quite old, but until relatively recently not enforced. Uncle Sam is looking for money everywhere, starting with those pesky non-resident citizens.... And than something else... Lets say you live in Spain and sell your house with a profit (over the past 5 years), you need to declare the profit or face a fine. 

Basicaly there is no benefit for dual citizenship (unless you want to live/work in the US at some point). After all, state benefits do not go out, but taxes do need to be paid. 

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:03 | 6718343 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

Your assumption is that the IRS is all powerful worldwide.  What if I use my second passport (Brazilian) to open a Panamanian Bank account.  THe IRS won't know jackshit.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:09 | 6718371 zvzzt
zvzzt's picture

If you open a bank account with a brazillian passport (regardsless of location), you need to declare that you are not a US citizen. If you do that, and they do figure out you are a US citizen after all, all assets are frozen. Not sure you want to risk that. Unfortunately most banks in the west are under the complete spell of US regulators (and they do not want to risk losing their licenses with the US). US government has sent out a list to local governments to check with local tax agencies for dual nationalities. 

So the easiest way now for local banks is to block any US citizen from opening an account, just to avoid the troubles they could get into. 

Unfortunately, I have some experience in this field... 

And yes, it's true IRS wont know jackshit - for a while

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:39 | 6718471 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

Yeah well I lived in the Cayman islands for 2 years and in other countries as well and I fully understand how little power the US has over financial matters outside of western countries.  By the way, Panama is a "black" listed country and reports nothing to the US.  The Cayman Islands are a "gray" country and will report to the US on request with a Cayman court order.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:42 | 6718531 Sivad UK
Sivad UK's picture

You'd be wrong now... Used to be that way and now it's not.

From a guy who knows...

Compliance costs me about 8k a yr in accountancy fees. They also went after my wife's account in UK under FACTA because I was a signatory.

It sucks - staying in compliance should be easier. I am a dual citizen and as soon as my little girl (#3) is born I will regretfully get rid of my US citizenship. Just too expensive to comply.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:45 | 6718542 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

The Caymans did not follow UK reporting regulations.  You're saying they do now?

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:45 | 6718544 kiwimail
kiwimail's picture

That may have been true in the past but since FATCA foreign banks are facing 30% tax on any transactions from the US if they dont toe the line. 

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 18:27 | 6718591 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

They don't have to toe the line if they use a non US passport.  

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:57 | 6718602 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

I can see that your mission is to instill fear of the IRS.  Foriegn passport holders do not have that fear. 

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 18:45 | 6718753 zvzzt
zvzzt's picture

I think your reaction was meant for me. To be sure, I get your point of view and I even agree from a moral pov. My problem as a European (with dual nationality - even though I was born in Europe and never traveled the US other than some shopping in NY) is that local regulations have become insanely difficult with the recent US-tax/citizenship issues. If you try to setup a serious business or have considerable amounts of money on hand, these things are not to be taken lightly. As a former banker (....) I do know quite a bit about the increased cooperation (anti terror laws, money laundering etc) that it is quite easy for western european nations to linkup and find you. Cayman/HK/Maladives /Panama I don't know about, but what I do know is that a considerable amount of Europeans with US links are having tax issues as of recent. I'm not talking about US expats, but of people born and raised elsewhere without even knowing they are a US citizen by default (like me - dont even have two passports) and then suddenly finding out they need to pay up. If you down vote that, your an idiot (sorry). 

Anyway, no propaganda or fearmongering from my side. Just giving my 2 cents. 

 

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 19:05 | 6718838 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

I don't bother with downvotes.  Kind of silly really.  Within the framework of western countries I think you are correct.  My second passport will never be in a compliant country.  If all countries are IRS compliant then the world can be defined as totally fascist and renouncing citizenship anywhere would be pointless.

Wed, 10/28/2015 - 04:11 | 6719927 zvzzt
zvzzt's picture

:) agreed

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 18:03 | 6718626 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

"You may be entitled to your opinions, but not to your own facts" - Ronald Reagan

Being a DC has definite advantages, if you had it, or had any sophistication. 

E.g., My kids have triple citizenship -- which means that they can study, live or work in any country in North America or the EU, w/o needing anyone's permission.  As for filing taxes... you just pay someone to do your taxes -- BFD.  And if they wanted to or had to, as Citizens, they could also collect welfare in any of these countries.

"A little learning is a dangerous thing." -A. Pope

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 19:03 | 6718823 zvzzt
zvzzt's picture

Since I do not understand the downvotes, a short reply to myself to clarify my personal situation (no body cares, I know - but just to clarify the situation). 

* born and raised in mainland Europe. 

* except for a weekend in the stripclub on Times Square (forgot the name) no traveling or business in/with the US

* no US passport, but born with a US mother, thus I'm considered a US citizen. 

* no interest/relation/feelings for the US - more feelings for my sons pet goldfish

So now the issues I'm facing:

* cannot open a local bankaccount (since I'm officially US citizen - they dont know that)

* need to pay capital gains if selling the house (indeed with a profit if I do)

* need to declare income in US - not even remotely trading with them

* need to fill in all sorts of forms for tax refunds/deductions/declarations

 

If readers find this normal and ok (and thus downvote), I'm stopping my daily ZH reads. There is no human on earth that could possibly find such a situation acceptable.  "They'll never find out" is not the point I'm trying to make. 

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 19:18 | 6718876 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

You're completely correct for your view of the world and I do not fault you for your more black and white view of things.  My view is different and I see things in light of the gray area of probabilities.  I consider using an "alternate" passport to conduct my business in certain countries as having a very high probability of success for as long as I choose to do this.  As a Mexican friend once told me:  The law is a straight line in the US that you should not cross.  Here in Mexico the law is a wavy line and you must live your life adapting to that uncertainty.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:13 | 6718391 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

I would recommend that you have your alternate citizenship lined up before you work to renouce your US citizenship...

Plus with the US growth projected to be less than that occuring outside the US, having dual citizenship in alternate countries might allow you to work there easier. That reason depends on each situation...

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 19:09 | 6718852 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

I won't be renouncing US citizenship.  I prefer holding as many as possible.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 16:50 | 6718294 zvzzt
zvzzt's picture

it costs about 2400 USD, so a lot more probably will renounce if prices go down.... and by the way, you cannot renounce if your reason is "taxes". They'll do a 4-6 month research into your situation before finally letting you go

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:11 | 6718362 godiva chocolate
godiva chocolate's picture

Don't worry, for every productive, clever, talented, motivated, wealthy citizen renouncing their US citizenship there are 500 illiterate, unproductive, anchor baby making unwed illegal aliens entering the US to replace them.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:17 | 6718411 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

This lady has had three of them herself, last one at 30000 ft.

http://www.ejinsight.com/20151019-girl-born-mid-air-gets-us-citizenship-...

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 18:34 | 6718715 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

The US could easily have denied the baby her USC -- given that:

 

1. They were in International Airspace (far outside the US)

2. The Mother lied about her pregnancy condition, which is a Fraud in the eyes of USCIS.

If they denied the mother Entry, it's no big deal.  Now that the fools.us.gov have granted her child Citizenship, she can just go back with the child and return lawfully at some point in the future.  Mission Accomplished.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:12 | 6718365 spooz
spooz's picture

Lets see.  318,857,000 citizens, and a whopping 1,426 (.000004%) renounced citizenship last quarter.  And a *humongous* 13,893 (also .000004%) since 2010. This is newsworthy....why? "Soaring"?  LMFAO

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:12 | 6718390 venturen
venturen's picture

well depends if they are the 90% or the .0001%....

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:34 | 6718495 spooz
spooz's picture

People who decide to leave the US to avoid taxes pay a hefty exit tax and face the possibility of not being able to obtain a visa to visit the US in the future (Bitcoin entrepreneur Roger Ver, who renounced his citizenship in 2014 was denied his request, Facebook co-founder Saverin has not tried to obtain one but would probably face the same problem).  I guess if you have no interest in ever visiting the US again...

 

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 20:13 | 6719072 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Seems simple enough to just walk across the border with or without a visa these days and if one has planned everything properly they own no property or assets here to be "attached".

Now be truthful, the point of your comment was to disuade real honest-to-goodness taxpayers from leaving the shit hole you helped make out of it and to stay here letting the parasites suck some more wasn't it? ;-)

Wed, 10/28/2015 - 04:14 | 6719930 spooz
spooz's picture

So, where is this "utopia" you have found to live in that has no "parasites" or taxes?  lol

Wed, 10/28/2015 - 06:10 | 6720007 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I didn't say there were no parasites or taxes (there obviously is everywhere on the planet) just a lot less of both...and the government is quite honest & open about it's raison d'etre, everyone knows it's the top crime family. You simply pay them protection money to stay away from you and you can then do pretty much whatever you want, a protection racket if you will.

A little honesty goes a long way in my book ;-)

Wed, 10/28/2015 - 11:50 | 6720877 spooz
spooz's picture

Oh, I see. Again, where is this "semi-utopia"?  I would like to tear it to shreds, if you'll let me.

As bad as things have become in the US, there is still a chance for people (and their kids) to get an education that can lead to a meaningful career, live in relative safety and know that the laws will protect them from (most) crime.  If we could just steer those taxes away from things like military spending and put them to use in ways that address the needs of citizens more directly (like education, health care and infrastructure), people might feel better about paying them.

As it is (living close to a major US city as I do) I will still go Christmas shopping, enjoy a show at the theater, eat out at a fine restaurant and enjoy spending the holidays with my extended family in the next few months, while you are laying low in your hidey-hole. Life is too fucking short and I don't want to miss it living with a bunch of expat preppers who will always think the sky is falling while everybody else goes about making the best of things back home in the US.

Wed, 10/28/2015 - 15:10 | 6722606 BarkingCat
BarkingCat's picture

Hey, quit killing my buzz man, I come here for sooner porn not your Hopie and Changie cumbaya .

Now you've made me depressed because I cannot be properly depressed.

Wed, 10/28/2015 - 18:54 | 6723875 nmewn
nmewn's picture

My goodness spooz, you're quite the patriot aren't you, didn't see that one coming...lol...well of course, all you want from "your government" is Faaarrreee! shit, unfortunately for you (and your fellow parasites) I'm not made that way.

1) I'll never give you (and your kind) the satisfaction of knowing what I'm contemplating.

2) Kids are mobile.

3) I won't be hiding in a hole somewhere, I'm being quite open about it and I'm taking my earnings with me.

4) Christmas (or shopping) is not unique to the US.

5) This may come a s shock to you but most governments have a military.

6) Its a well established fact crime happens everywhere and is considered against the law, unless of course the crime is forcing people to engage in commerce...like ObamaCare.

Therein lies the rub, what you call "healthcare" is really health insurance, provided by >>>a private corporation<<< I know this to be true, everyone else knows this to be true, you however do not, you're either an an idiot or insane but still don't have to live with you.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:20 | 6718423 Fred C Dobbs
Fred C Dobbs's picture

The number would be very much higher if it were easy to do and people had a second passport. 

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:25 | 6718449 yogibear
yogibear's picture

The US no longer has the principles it was founded on.

Obama modeled the US on the European model. Socialism based.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 17:37 | 6718507 divedivedive
divedivedive's picture

I'm a US expat. Not thinking of renouncing. But regarding FATCA - it took me _days_ last year to complete the required forms. If you have a US bank account - in the spring you receive a form from the bank stating what your interest was for the year. In fact they even provide you with the form to include with your filing - this is what the bank reported to the IRS. As an expat no one does that for us. I have to go through each monthly statement and start doing math - even though the foreign banks report to a central agency - like an IRS counterpart - who then communicates with the IRS. It truely feels like the IRS is hoping I screw up. And not all foreign investments are apples to apples with US investments. All I can do is make educated assumptions. And there is no more help available via phone with the IRS.  And it ain't going to get any easier as I get older and less mentally astute. And I better not pass first because my wife will really be in a pickle. She has already said she will take all the money out of all the banks and put it in a mattress. 

Wed, 10/28/2015 - 15:15 | 6722651 BarkingCat
BarkingCat's picture

>>>> She has already said she will take all the money out of all the banks and put it in a mattress. <<<<

Given the interest rate you get from a bank today, why would you keep any substantial money there?

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 18:22 | 6718634 tunetopper
tunetopper's picture

You fail to mention that the US Tax Code allows non-citizens to earn capital gains in the US while not paying any tax here. So - if I am bidding on a company stock or a government bond, or a piece of real estate against a foreigner- and I have to calculate my taxes owed when I sell it- I have 30% less at the end of the day- assuming I profit, and assuming that I dont use tax deductible debt (which is difficult to do, under our code with the exception of real estate).

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 18:28 | 6718692 divedivedive
divedivedive's picture

Non-citizens may not pay any US taxes as you suggest - but FATCA is supposedly reciprocal. The US is telling the governments of the non-citizens of their US earnings.

Where we live - the government takes out taxes before they ever pay us interest. If we were not US citizens our taxation would end there. But we have to tell the US about any gains on our investments and pay them as well. What I do do is take a tax credit on the taxes I pay our 'local' government. I'm no accountant but that seemed like the right way to do it. We only file a US return.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 18:14 | 6718653 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

That's why smart people who emigrate here, and have real degree(s) and real, globally-marketable skills, do not get their US Citizenship (USC). They get a Green Card.

They simply keep their Green Card (Permanent Lawful Resident) status for as long as they wish.  They can do almost anything, except vote or run for office -- which is a tragic loss, I'm sure.

Then, when they decide to leave, their tax situation gets simpler than that of a USC in the same situation (i.e., not planning to return, except on business or to visit).

The only additional potential 'advantage' I know of, in acquiring a USC, is that the US won't extradite you to some 3rd world hellhole.  Unless it's the Land of Milk & Honey, where its agents won't need no stinking badges to haul your ass away.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 20:39 | 6719152 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

Plus they get to contribute to the demise of engineering wages in the US and the feathering of more wage arbitraging beancounting CEO pockets.

Winning!

Wed, 10/28/2015 - 15:20 | 6722688 BarkingCat
BarkingCat's picture

You are thinking of H1B1 visas. Completely different.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 18:14 | 6718657 alfbell
alfbell's picture

 

 

The US federal gov needs to be gutted and reduced to 25% of its size, and most all authority turned back over to the states. Gov should only oversee infrastructure, communication and defense. Gov should be OUT of our private lives and our businesses. Gov is on the decline just like monarchs were when the Magna Carta came into view. The cycle has begun. It will take time, but government as we know it is on the way out. Facism, Communism, Socialism, Totalitarianism all destroy themselves. We will evolve. 

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 18:36 | 6718718 Ms No
Ms No's picture

I am going to take the not so risky position that these numbers are dependent of gov information somewhere along the line and thus, bogus.   People with the means and a good place to go are probably leaving by the thousands if not tens of thousands.  The problem seems to be finding somewhere that one can rely on being safe for your person and assets.  As the whole world seems to be decending into this fiasco, if one is not careful, you may end up jumping from the frying pan and into the fire. It may just be our collective fate to have to confront this dung heap.  

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 23:14 | 6719587 August
August's picture

I'm an (IRS-compliant) US citizen who's live abroad for some twelve years;  I've met quite a few US expats, and the large majority do not file US tax returns (which comports with figures from such reputable sources as the Isaac Brock Society).  Many of these people continue to visit The Homeland.

As time passes and the FATCA noose (presumably) draws tighter, these non-compliant folk will likely be forced to make a decision: 1) renounce US citizenship via a process which in most cases will involve back taxes and penalties for many years, or 2) quietly fade away and never visit the US again.  The majority, I think, will go with #2.  And none of their names will ever appear on any "list of renunciants"; this could be well in excess of one million people.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 18:37 | 6718724 Teh Finn
Teh Finn's picture

Good grief, you Eurotrash are insecure.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 19:07 | 6718844 Teh Finn
Teh Finn's picture

ROFL, the Orange Queen™ is back.  Taking bets on how long it takes this genuinely depraved mind, reprobate to get banned again.  ZH admins ok with banned commenters coming back over and over under different usernames?

They get your meds worked out?

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 19:14 | 6718866 Teh Finn
Teh Finn's picture

Flattery will get you nowhere queenie.  Caitlin Jenner and Chelsea Manning are more your speed.  Now be a good little eurotrash and sit and watch the mohammedians destroy your country and rape your women like the cowardly queers you all are.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 20:48 | 6719189 Crusader75
Crusader75's picture

For a nation of 300+ million, that is nothing. Just doom and gloom hype.

Tue, 10/27/2015 - 23:55 | 6719687 alfbell
alfbell's picture

I thought ZH was for mature audiences. The insults and language can really be terrible and juvenile sometimes. I would surmise that the people who speak like this (ex. sandrawebber) are true cowards. They'd never to talk to another person like that face to face because they know they'd get their faces punched in. It is so easy to unleash vitriolic statements at people from a computer terminal because they know there are no consequences. If everyone assumed that they were in a room with each other we'd have a much more polite group of people and much more constructive communication. 

Wed, 10/28/2015 - 01:50 | 6719828 SixIsNinE
SixIsNinE's picture

good comment Alfbell, however, this is Fight Club, and is free admission - with all the censorship and "free" speech being tossed into the dungeon, the general Zero readership would probably, I hope, opt to keep our limited "free" speech, and if it does really get too obscene, someone will pull 'em apart ...

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