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Legendary US Army Commander Says Russia Would "Annihilate" US In Head-To-Head Battle
Late in September, we brought you “US Readies Battle Plans For Baltic War With Russia” in which we described a series of thought experiments undertaken by The Pentagon in an effort to determine what the likely outcome would be should something go horribly “wrong” on the way to landing the US in a shooting war with Russia in the Balkans.
The results of those thought experiments were not encouraging. As a reminder, here’s how Foreign Policy summed up the exercises:
In June 2014, a month after he had left his force-planning job at the Pentagon, the Air Force asked David Ochmanek - deputy assistant secretary of defense for force development - for advice on Russia’s neighborhood ahead of Obama’s September visit to Tallinn, Estonia. At the same time, the Army had approached another of Ochmanek’s colleagues at Rand, and the two teamed up to run a thought exercise called a “table top,” a sort of war game between two teams: the red team (Russia) and the blue team (NATO). The scenario was similar to the one that played out in Crimea and eastern Ukraine: increasing Russian political pressure on Estonia and Latvia (two NATO countries that share borders with Russia and have sizable Russian-speaking minorities), followed by the appearance of provocateurs, demonstrations, and the seizure of government buildings. “Our question was: Would NATO be able to defend those countries?” Ochmanek recalls.
The results were dispiriting. Given the recent reductions in the defense budgets of NATO member countries and American pullback from the region, Ochmanek says the blue team was outnumbered 2-to-1 in terms of manpower, even if all the U.S. and NATO troops stationed in Europe were dispatched to the Baltics — including the 82nd Airborne, which is supposed to be ready to go on 24 hours’ notice and is based at Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
To be sure, the fact that this is even under consideration is somewhat surreal. Sure, no one took Hillary Clinton serioulsy when she presented Sergei Lavrov with the now infamous "reset" button (which actually didn't say "reset" because thanks to a "typo" the prop said “peregruzka” which means “overcharged"), but with a Nobel Peace Price-winning President in The White House, no one expected things to deterirotate to the point that NATO was seriously contemplating a war with the Russians.
Nevertheless, Moscow's intervention in Syria has the West concerned that for the first time in nearly thirty years, The Kremlin doesn't fear a direct confrontation.
The problem for The Pentagon isn't so much that the US has fallen behind in terms of spending money on expensive war toys (i.e. we don't necessarily doubt that Washington has the best technology).Rather, the US seems to have fallen behind in terms of its ability to fight a conventional war against a formidable foe, presumably because there really haven't been any formidable foes in decades.
Well now, it seems entirely possible that the US may have to fight a conventional war against the Russians (and possibly the Iraninans) and that means you can no longer depend on the fact that on a warrior-for-warrior basis, a handful of SEAL Team Six members can pull off battlefield miracles, because no matter how elite your spec ops are, you can't pit twelve guys against four thousand and expect them to win.
It's with all of this in mind that Washington is beginning to assess whether the US could hold its ground against Russia in a conventional standoff. According to retired Army Colonel Douglas Macgregor, American forces would get "annihilated." Here's more, via Politico:
For those villagers eagerly snapping pictures on the side of a road in the Czech Republic in late September, the appearance of the line of U.S. “Stryker” armored fighting vehicles must have seemed more like a parade than a large-scale military operation. The movement of some 500-plus soldiers of the 2nd Cavalry Regiment from Vilsack in Bavaria to a Hungarian military base was intended to strengthen U.S. ties with the Czech, Slovak and Hungarian militaries and put Russia’s Vladimir Putin on notice.
But not everyone is convinced. “This Stryker parade won’t fool anyone in Moscow,” says retired Army Colonel Douglas Macgregor. “The Russians don’t do many things well, but they have been subverting, destabilizing, invading and conquering their neighbors since Peter the Great. And what’s our response: a small unit of light armored trucks.”
Viewed by many of his colleagues as one of the most innovative Army officers of his generation, Macgregor, a West Point graduate with a Ph.D. in international relations (“he can be pretty gruff,” a fellow West Point graduate says, “but he’s brilliant”), led the 2nd Cav’s “Cougar Squadron” in the best-known battle of Operation Desert Storm in February 1991. In 23 minutes, Macgregor’s force destroyed an entire Iraqi Armored Brigade (including nearly 70 Iraqi armored vehicles), while suffering a single American casualty. Speaking at a military “lessons learned” conference one year later, Air Force General Jack Welsh described the Battle of 73 Easting (named for a map coordinate) as “a stunning, overwhelming victory.”
In the wake of the battle, however, Macgregor calculated that if his unit had fought a highly trained and better armed enemy, like the Russians, the outcome would have been different.
In early September he circulated a PowerPoint presentation showing that in a head-to-head confrontation pitting the equivalent of a U.S. armored division against a likely Russian adversary, the U.S. division would be defeated.
“Defeated isn’t the right word,” Macgregor told me last week. “The right word is annihilated.” The 21-slide presentation features four battle scenarios, all of them against a Russian adversary in the Baltics — what one currently serving war planner on the Joint Chiefs staff calls “the most likely warfighting scenario we will face outside of the Middle East.”
“Macgregor scares the hell out of the Army,” says a senior Joint Chiefs war planner. “What he has proposed is nothing less than the dismantling of the Big Green Machine, getting the Army to embrace a future of lighter, more agile forces than the big lumbering behemoth which takes forever to spool up and deploy. I’ll bet the armor and airborne guys are furious. Reform my ass: Macgregor has walked into the zoo and slapped the gorilla.”
Yeah well, the US has already "walked into the zoo" and slapped the Russian grizzly bear. It sounds to us like Macregror may have a battle plan that actually isn't a joke, which means it will be promptly dismissed by The Pentagon.
After all, it's all about covert ops these days. And that's working so well for Washington in the Mid-East. Why fix something that isn't broken right?...
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Like rendering a U.S. destroyer a sitting duck with a little box of electromagnetic magic...
The first stray bullet, and it's game on like a cluster fuck.
Pretty pathetic that we even have to have this conversation. When one country spends more than the next dozen countries COMBINED it shouldn't even be up for discussion who would win. But our bloated budget is all about corporate welfare. Expensive contracts for well connected companies who make sure the congressmen of their districts keep the pork flowing. I feel like we outta at least be able to keep our country safe, which is all I give a shit about, with a budget about the size of what it was when Clinton took office.
All we have, apparently, are a bunch of expensive toys good for killing hajji dirty farmers and nothing else, and especially not against another modern army. Funny how much cheaper it is to build a missile that will shoot down the 'most advanced fighter in the world' is than the fighter itself. So, who is spending their defense money more wisely?
The US Army has the 'Stryker'. In the words of someone who knows,"Harsh words will cause the Stryker to burst into flames".
I shit you not.
Russia does have some technological advantages over the U.S. though.
Russian missile technology is superior.
The S-400 surface to air defence system is two generations better than anything else in the world.
Russian missiles are superior too. Their ICMB's fly random path trajectories. They are the masters of multiple engine rockets.
Only the Russians have the ability to put a man in space.
America is a little self deluded and they too often extrapolate their warplane technology advantage into a blanket technology advantage. That's just not the case.
OM:
Yep, the old generation 1 "Intercontinental Ballistic Missile" has been replaced by the G2 ICMB. Ballistic means it is on a trajectory like a bullet. These modern maneuvering bullets are something to behold, if ever anyone can grok their randomness.
- Ned
Macgregor is correct-on paper. But when those Ivans catch a glimpse of our progressive cross-dressin' high-heel wearin' shock troops, they will suffer brain-freeze and we will strut all over them.
Hey, watch how you talk about our men - er, persons-in-arms. I can personally attest that high heels, when properly applied, leave behind quite the mark.
What the fuck national interest is it of ours in the Baltics? Just like Syria? We don't have any business starting a shooting war over countries that are meaningless. They were part of the USSR sphere of influence for decades, and the world went on. Of course, its more about keeping our boot on Russia's throat, so they can't get up off the floor than anything.
The Zionist/Neocons shot their wad of Good Old Boy corn fed warriors....these families are not coming back so let's see how the "rainbow coalition" troops do from here.
Unannounced missle launch from Edwards Air Force Base about 1/2 hour ago.
http://www.vvng.com/strange-light-in-the-sky-seen-across-the-victor-valley/
It looks like a missle, but then why were there reports of military choppers shadowing it? Strange.
Defeated isn’t the right word,” Macgregor told me last week. “The right word is annihilated.
Bullshit. This is the kind of scary language used for marketing. This asshole is just selling a book, and selling congress on bigger budgets.
Read the linked article. The fucker didn't even learn from Iraq and Afganistan. He still thinks small forces can win and go home in weeks. Never mind, the politicians want long term occupation for regime changes and making democray.
Total fail.
yep. that was my 1st thought as well..."MOAR for MIC cuz MOAR aint never enuff""
Exactly, it is just to increase budgets and power for military members. Russia could entirely give up it's military and go full Pasifist and these guys would still be screaming for much budget. It has nothing to do with help America people, it is just to help themselves.
now is it the balkans or the baltics? the lead paragraph of the post has both. this is like saying it's canada mexico.
the baltics are by the baltic sea, northwest of germany and poland: latvia, estonia and lithuania.
the balkans are down in southeastern europe, long about serbia, romania, bulgaria, greece, etc.
in additon, "The scenario was similar to the one that played out in Crimea and eastern Ukraine: increasing Russian political pressure on Estonia and Latvia" strikes me as a crock of shit. the political pressure that led to provocateurs was applied by victoria nuland and the cia. they were the ones that ran a coup that subverted an elected government and led to civil war.
also how brilliant can this crying wolf colonel be if he starts out with the premise that the russians aren't good at many things?
finally, david ochmanek may have an ancillary agenda like the thirty-nine other ashkenazis in the defense department elite (Of the one-hundred eleven(111) U.S. Defense Department senior officials, forty(40) are Jews (most of them) or have Jewish spouses (not many of them). This is a numerical representation of 36%. Jews are approximately 2% of the U.S. population. Therefore Jews are over-represented among the U.S. Defense Department senior officials by a factor of 18 times (1,800 percent).)
We didn’t participate…
https://www.rt.com/shows/documentary/320216-tank-biathlon-russian-army/
The bagboy's under our, employ, who get comped at the K-Street Kiddie Brothels, are doing such a great job of annialating our constitutional republic, the Ruskies won't have to waste a single bullet.
NATO can't even see or hear whats going on in Syria, cause the Ruskies have a 600km "dome of silence", or the so called A2AD electronic jammer that nulls all frequencies and blinds look down satellite surveillance, see here, and here.
It's like a "phat" version of the gizmo that scared the sailors on the Aegis Class Donald Cook so bad, that 27 of them turned in their resignations when the Over Priced USS Donny Cooky jar finally got up and running snuff to make a port call.
What the fucking good is expensive stealth technology (aka the zillion dollar hopelessness of a B2, F35, blah blah blah and cannot hit a tin can ten feet away) if it's blind?
Our rank and file civil and uniformed services should worry more about us than the next coffer filling false flag gimmick required by US genocide Industries. They'd do better to arrest every kiddie fondler on C-SPAN, than a dancing a powder keg mambo with the Ruskies. A tuss with nation that gave up 60 million souls in the last Banker World War is akin to French kissing a rattle snake, or forcing the Americans Commons seek a restoration of the rule of law with extreme prejudice.
Don't tread on us, we're bred for violence, we're American assholes, and we tire of the DC kiddie fonders fucking us and robbing us blind.
They're our employees, for X's sake. They are not nobility, or even noble. They're self anoints who've lost their survival skills and need some time out.
"This asshole is just selling a book, and selling congress on bigger budgets."
Perhaps not annihilated, but winning against Russia would be far more challenging that bombing civilian wedding parties. Best option is not to play the game, especial agains a nuclear armed military.
FWIW: For the US Military to give pause to TPTB for war with Russia is better, regardless of the reasons. Better to raise doubt to prevent war than to promote it as winnable.
It's just scaremongering in order to get more grants/bigger budget for the military!
Follow the money and see if he's paid (bribed!) by the defence industry...
If China dumps T-bills and goes partial gold standard maybe we can destroy these Zionist bastards. We are the evil empire.
Head to head battle would result in mutual annihilation I suspect. This guy is simply talking hi sbook and wants moar spending on weapons, etc
Well now, it seems entirely possible that the US may have to fight a conventional war against the Russians
Seriously, we just have to, no if and or buts(just don't ask for whys)
Conventional wars are something we should be good at since we've been continuously fighting one for over 15 years in the ME.
No, most of it has been assymetrical warfare against guerilla forces. The conventional war ended within a couple weeks.
Agreed Mr Matt, our contribution is CIA operations, seemingly inept, but really suffer from the the same short comings that the rest of us suffer from, a lack of good communication.
Coming from this POTUS, well we have a year left.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Christopher_Stevens
Wash your foul mouth with Zyklon-B!!! The Kagan and Nudelman families were from the Baltics. Nothing could be more important than to exact revenge on those invading and occupying Moskal bastards, I mean (in sweetest voice) "to protect NATO members from external threats."
Do you wonder why are everyone preparing for WW3??
http://motivationdose.com/is-america-babylon/
Soon as anyone starts talking about bible predictions, I go consult my other works of fiction to see what (else) may be (mis)construed
~"What the fuck national interest is it of ours in the Baltics? Just like Syria? We don't have any business starting a shooting war over countries that are meaningless. "~
What the fuck is your problem, Beam me? Why are you obscuring the issue with facts? /sarc
Seriously, BMUScotty is smack on. Someone needs to explain to the folks on Main Street our dog in any of these "foreign entanglements". If Estonia wants to remain separate from the Russians, they need to figure out how they are going to make that happen without the blood and treasure of the Americans.
As far as Syria goes, I'm perfectly fine with a bunch of Muslims murdering another bunch of Muslims. That also applies to [insert Muslim country name here]. Fuck them and the prophet they soil their foreheads to. And no, when they blow up their country, they DO NOT get to come here as "refugees".
Indeed, any intervention only prolongs the conflicts between the various groups. They need to fight it out until they suffer from "WAR FATIGUE" which is not generated by doing there one thing or another.
But like always, they are not telling us the truth. The Australian Human Rights Commissioner Tim Wilson is on record as saying that we are in Afghanistan to "establish a free market economy'. So the war there is for the corporations, not for you and me. Iraq was about access to oil for petrodollars not €, and Syria is about a gas pipeline for gas companies operating in Qatar.
Why they all see everything under a rivalry with Russia and/or China is actually totally paranoid. No government can rule against the population for long.
1. Eurasia
2. Brzezinski said "he who controls Eurasia controls the world and gets the middle east by default"
3. Brzezinski has had a hard on for Russia for 50 yrs
I would agree, but we're (CIA) instigating most of those wars
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. Don't put American troops in the Baltic and the Russians won't be able to destroy them. You want to know what really does a fine job defeating Russian tank and infantry? The fucking oceans that separate us from them. How about we mind our business instead of the Syrian and the Baltic people's?
Sounds to me like you want to have a policy of avoiding foreign entanglements. Too bad nobody thought of that two hundred years ago and wrote it into our constitution.
yep, as Smedley Butler in "War is a Racket", wrote, paraphrase, if our military was purely defensive and not trying to be the policeman of the world, we would not be fomenting war.
"
Shocking troop strut is choreographed 21 century interpretation of secret weapon known as Killing Joke.
Ivan will scare, they know about Gay rage as does the US military.
Tranny was attacking old Chinese people in San Francisco yesterday, its real!!!
A Russian general in his speech on the first channel of Russia said:
"The military victory over Russia - it's impossible. Why? Because in our actions is always absent any logic.
It is impossible that anyone could understand our actions with logic.
If even we are not able to understand why and what we are doing, then any our opponent is not able to understand it even more so. "
when viewed from the publically projected image of american interest, our actions appear to be absent of logic
if viewed from a GLOBAL ELITIST ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT viewpoint, these actions show a systematic worldwide strategy to take control of the planet by integrating all key power centers, resources, or sources of resistance
punch line, America and some of its dimmer elites are being used as $10 crack whores to do the cartels dirty work, and when the job, or their usefullness, is over, will be kicked to the curb like a, well, used up crack whore.
Good one! Prior to Russia going into Syria, military media outlets, Navy and Army Times, Mlitary.com, Stars and Stripes....I counted 5 stories in eavh about 2 females who made it in my opinion, dumbed dow Ranger school, 4 on changing breast feeding policies in Army allowing more time and flexibility for females to nurse their infants, 8 or more stories about lesbian and gay isxues, the corker was the transgender meeting of NATO military at some conference. I commented at the time, this crap is really going to scare the Chinese, Russians, and jihadis from taking us on. Sad thing, I do not think military media or Pentagram worries about the perception our adversaries have about us. Why worry, a lactating female soldier is fearsome to behold. If we get into WW3..a lot of it will be based on how IMBECILIC and weak we appear. Pussies in camo. Actually there was a story in local Ohio media about some ROTC unit being asked to drill in heels, to get a """feel"" how difficult females have it.
Cant both side's leadership just commit mass suicide?
Then the rest of us can live our lives in peace/
Certainly would be a lot less costly, both in money and blood.
And in case there is some confusion about what I meant above- I am not saying the article is or is not correct in its assessment of US vs Russia in a military conflict. I am merely stating that it's pretty pathetic that a country that spends as much on "defense" as the US does would even have people QUESTION it's ability to defeat a hypothetical enemy that doesn't even spend but 10% or so of the US military budget. My main point is that, once again, we are getting taken to the cleaners as taxpayers.
And, I feel I should also point out - I don't even think it's a good thing if we can smash any other country in the world, since we clearly haven't used that capability responsibly. Just enough to defend this country, not everywhere we have an "interest" which seems to be the whole planet.
Spending =/= performance
In 1965 NASA was concerned about astronauts needing to do hand calcs under duress and in a zero G environment there was a risk that the ink might not flow through their pens. So NASA spent $1.3million to develop the zero G space pen.
Russia used pencils.
Actually that is incorrect. NASA spent 1.3 million develping a mechanical pencil that failed to meet specifications. Paul Fisher of fisher pen co. developed his pen with his own funds and on his own initiative. NASA purchased 400 of fisher's pens at $2.95 each($22 in 2015 dollars). The USSR also purchased a number of fisher pens as an improvement over the grease pencils they used.
Actually the entirety of NASA is a complete waste and a hoax. Hollywood does a better job!
Oh yeah, I remember. Didn't Seinfeld have one those?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3Vm_ksWreM
In fact, most Americans believe that the first man in space was an American. They also believe that the first woman in space was American too. This means that the majority of US citizens living in a prison their illusions from the Faux News and Hollywood.
The Russians also put the first black man in space, a Cuban, but if you look at his photo he really doesn't look black.
Arnaldo Tamayo Méndez
http://cubanosjgg.blogspot.com/2011_04_01_archive.html
Greenskeeper carl - That's our job as American taxpayers - getting taken to the cleaners. We vote for it all the time.
"Taxpayers"? - the whole MIC / Banking ponzi scheme is based on astronomical government debt and, assuming it could ever be paid (which it won't). it would be by your great-great-grandchildren.
That is the very reason WWIII has to happen, to provide the formal excuse to press the giant $19 trillion debt reset button while people are basking in the glow of "the rocket's red glare, bombs bursting in air"
Anybody else ever notice which finger Sergei Lavrov is pressing that Staples Surrender button with?
Always struck me as a knowing indicator of his intent (and he was probably deeply insulted by the whole cheap charade) just like the sailors form the USS Pueblo when photographed by the Norks.
Says it all. Not a mistake, folks.
Bammy's dismantling it, like he said he was gonna. Too bad the libtards have no clue as to the ultimate result.
Lavrov and Putin are both very smart, funny guys, quick on their feet. Like when Lavrov met Kerry last Feb to discuss Ukraine, he congratulated him on the Super Bowl win and said; "I'm always happy when the Patriots beat the Hawks," ZING!
The middle finger means nothing in eastern europe dude....it's regularily used for pointing instead of the index finger.
But you are right, these bullshit, dollar store tricks are actually an insult to anyone with outside of the USSA...it's a gift you would give a retarded kid, not an ambassador
Public discussions of who can beat whom sound juvenile and unprofessional, no matter how beneficial they might be for Circulation.
Also, all this fluffing of Russia's egos makes me leery that this is deliberate, to over-inflate their sense of ability. It reminds me of the Kuwaiti provocations of Saddam (horizontal drilling into Iraq), and Saddam's threat to invade. Even when he had his tanks lined up on the Kuwaiti border, the Saudi and US forces did not move. And then, when he took the bait right down to the gut (by invading), did we act -- decisively.
The 50 SO troops are Scouts, to gather intel on Russian tech. Also, while all sides are focused on MENA, the TPP and TPP agreements are marching forward, as are US plans to dominate the ultimate High Ground: Space.
Russia and China are losing time and ground if they don't have the resources and bandwidth to go into space (Moon, Mars). Think: Full Spectrum Domination.
Wrong
Russia has never profected multiple warheads, one US missile could do the whole job. Not to mention most of the Russian missiles were built during the Soviet era. Its estimated that many of them wont work, or work right, as they are old and have never been properly upgraded. They have no defensive capability (star wars) and random flights will not defend themselves from it. "Only the Russians have the ability to put a man in space." using rockets designed during the soviet era, even India has a space program. Watch what you read, as the propaganda machine in Washington always try's to make themselves look weak to get more funding. Russia produces nothing the world wants, except oil and guns. With massive corruption, its nothing more then third world status.
There is likely the key....just like on ZH, everyone is just talking their book. This guy is no different. Tell mericans they wil get their asses kicked in a war with russia and then wait for the sheeple to scream for more spending.
Ummm there is a good precedent here, back in WW11 the Germans produced overly complex, unreliable, resource hungry effective battle tanks, but just couldn't make enough of them. The Russians cobbled together the T34 that wiped the floor with the German tanks, they could also mass produce them. The Russians think out of the box and keep it simple, and no doubt have studied western capabilities and developed weapons to counter act and overwhelm them. E.g. USS Donald Cook.
. "Russian . . . ICMB's fly random path trajectories."
Yep. And that fun fact is why the US Gov't. destabilized Ukraine. With missile bases in Ukraine the US Gov't. could destroy many Russian ICBM's during their boost phase, and boost-phase interception is the sine qua non of an effective anti-ballistic missile system.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/facility.htm
In Iraq, illiterate soldiers using explosives from unexploded American bombs made IED's that chewed up Strykers like cardboard toys.
Back in 2000, I was at a presentation at Fort Knox about the "Soldier of the Future". A team came and gave the presentation about the gear that was being developed for the future. Looked very impressive. After the presentation, I was talking to one of the NCOs about it, and I asked him how much it cost for one soldier. He said, just over a million dollars. I then said to him, so we send out a million dollar Infantry private and some Jose pops out from behind a tree and chops off his head with a $3 machete. How long can we fight a war with numbers like that? Silence ensued.
Post 9/11 insert Mohammed for Jose and RPG for machete.
Technology is great, but in the end warfare is about economics. Force mulipliers are great for small, short conflicts. In the long war however, the cost is too great. Can't kill them as fast as they reproduce.
Unfortunately you are correct, extortionate military cost of the MIC will I believe result in the use of nuclear weapons, it has to.
Yep, all this fancy equipment will be used up in the first few weeks, the economy cannot create enough of it to sustain any sort of long term war, and a long term war is the only one that threatens the mother country.
As for this general, I'd take what he says with a lot of salt. Tanks, and other heavy equipment are slow and lumbering, sure there are a lot of weapon systems now that can destroy them, but these weapon systems are often large and expensive too. The recent fighting in Ukraine has been with all the heavy equipment, and firepower+armour is a big advantage to hold over "light and nimble troops", in fact, take away air superiority and heavy armour will wipe out light troops in short order. The tank is vulnerable to many weapons on the battlefield today, but it always was and still is a big threat.
America's big problem with Russia is geography, Russia is a long way away and stationing troops thousands of miles away is expensive, too expensive to do in significant numbers forever, if the west really wants a counter point to Russia in conventional forces then it must come from Germany, Britain, France, Poland and the other countries closer by, with that counterbalance though they'll get a more balanced foreign policy, and this is the thing that is unacceptable to many of those dreaming of empire.
GCarl:
But, you see, it is about more than money and weapons. It is about smarts, ability to play poker and chess, hearts, organization, guts, ...
Our "Tell Vlad I'll have more flexibility in the second term" leader eschews all of the above in himself and in his subordinates.
- Ned
Exactly the technology has led to the development of the antiship ICBM.
China has missiles than can destroy a supercarrier at 3,500km range and there is zero defense against it.
They are now developing a hypersonic version than can pull hypersonic manoeuvres and intercept targets that attempt to evade.
Supercarrier are obsolete in a conventional war with one of the Asian Jnr super powers.
The U.S. spends insane amounts of money but largely on weapons that can beat an Iraq like enemy faster.
Fighting Russia or China is a whole different game.
lol, belive what you want to, but the chinese missiles are capable of hitting a predetermined, preprogrammed non-moving spot in the desert with spotters. china is capable of copying tech it doesn't understand, building inferior versions they are grossly untrained in using and parading it with soldiers who can barely hold their guns or wear uniforms properly. ever been on a PLA practice range? they don't get much practice, they can barely hold the damn guns in a meaningful way and their shooting is garbage. Their abilities with other more advanced systems are about as equally impressive.
Supercarriers are indeed obsolete, which is why the US is automating them more and shifting over to drones. A fully manned supercarier is indeed obsolete, but only because the US has airfields all over the planet. A supercarrier is a floating airport that is for the most part self-sustaining and has greater air defenses than any other nation on earth on their own damned soil. Here's what the Chinese have... missiles. They like missiles because they follow orders better than the soldiers. Too bad for them though, as a nuclear power, any ballistic missile is by default considered nuclear. Launch and they get glassed. Same for Russia.
Which means you're left with ground forces, and US ground forces are superior to anything else on the planet.... untie their hands and let them do what they do best and it's not even a competition.
Well, just like the big surprise when Russia launched weapons from the Caspian Sea, weapons the West had no idea they had,,, the Chinese are well past the copying stage and are doing their own stuff in house.
Other than Nukes the US is a deminishing power behind Russia and maybe even China. For sure if the two of them teamed up.
My reasoning is the Russians and Chinese have been seriously worried about the USA and its wannabee empire and have been working hard to actually defend themselves and are developing pretty decent defensive weapons at reasonable costs.
The USA MIC are only after the money, putting out second rate excessively priced equipment. It's military is now a politically correct institution filled with those that want nothing to do with the McDonalds economy and Obama Care.
There more Chinese with genius IQ's than all Americans combined.
Yea? Well our dicks are bigger!
Does it help with the "thinking" process ?
So are our assholes.
And yet they're ruled by communists and can't browse the entire web.
Access to the ghetto of the web-Facebook, YouTube, and Twitter are sooooo important.
You must either have a lower standard for Genius, or believe that Chinese are disporportionally intelligent by a large margin.
Genius is around 0.25% of a population, so if there are 1.4 billion Chinese, they should have 3.5 million geniuses. Half of their population are extremely poor peasants, so maybe 2 million geniuses with any resources.
Actually, we in the west did know Russia had these sorts of weapons, at least those who had an interest in military things. The 1980's Tupolov TU-160 for example has two six round cruise rotary cruise missile launchers, and that was developed 20 years ago, although the electronics back then used to lag behind the west, now obviously they have caught up a lot.
But it is a big surprise to the western media (and the main stream sheeple) to see Russia deploying exactly the same type of weapons as the US in exactly the same manner too, great PR stuff even though they probably could have just hit the same targets with SU-27's carrying laser guided bombs for a fraction of the price.
China may also have x numbers of sleeper agents walking around in the US right now
We brend verry weww in with masses, especially DMB fan, #1 concert entertainment show.
@ Lao Mei - Please don't be offended, but you should know that your comment about the Chinese armed forces is embarrassing for the ignorance and thoughtlessness that it demonstrates. Study your subject before posting.
US forces are sperior to everyone else in world ? Hahahahahahahahahahah laomei never go full retard. Ignorance is stupidity.
Well if US navy tries to attack they will be glassed no.matter what and even if they think its nuclear launch whay exactly they can do ? Nothing they have no means by which they can really takeover .Warmongers will get what they deserve.
Dont kniw what happened to you. From reistance to apologist.
laomei - I'm sorry, my friend McCain, that I didn't recognize you in makeup.
I've heard that your shit "about the superiority of the US Army," many years ago - in Vietnam.
But statistics dogfights in the skies of Vietnam, more convincing than your chatter from the garbage can. According to the statistics, the US lost aircraft dogfights against the Soviet Union aircraft, with a score of almost 2 to 1.
If pilots MiG-s were not Vietnamese, but Russian, this is a bitter truth of statistics would be much worse for the United States: 3 to 1 or more.
And behind the smoke and mirrors is......?
In view of the hundreds of articles on ZH alone, detailing US MIC largesse, misappropriation, and outright theft, how much of that "spend" evert reaches the desired Departments, and how much of that fraction in turn is "creatively re-allocated"??
Where the budget is in the order of trillions US $, the temptation is also in that order, especially as the degree of oversight seems pretty weak.
Like that other all-powerful monolith, the Banking "Industry", larceny / embezzlement / theft seems to attract minor or no penalty, so the "risk vs. reward" equation is heavily skewed to reward. So, don't expect all that "money" to have been "spent" correctly (in the view of the US Taxpayer base).
Well, this is where the so much praised privatization of public services leads - always.
I think you're looking for 'cartelization,' not 'privatization.'
Posted this earlier in another thread.
I think the Russians design their military and its equipment to be effective, not to make billions for corporations.
F35 springs to mind.
The Saker wrote a very insightful post on this matter a while back
LINK to full article
A big stick doesn't work very well against a hornets nest.
Tech does make a huge difference, just ask the Iraqis from the Gulf War. Night vision and GPS against an enemy that does not have those technologies, in a night fight in the desert.
yup, you got it - bloated budgets for MIC to deliver crappy arsenal. Russia & China can't afford this luxury, they need and must get the best bang for their buck. This is national treason and crime,
it puts US in situation to not be able to rely on conventional war to control a conflict or defend and to be forced to relay on nuclear arsenal which will unleash the hell on earth.
you guys as a nation have been killed from inside like a cancer.
I thought it was about creating jobs for disaffected youth, creating science and finding worthy people who will side with the term 'defence force'. Of course, bases in 63 countries around the world isn't necessarily always defence, but you know, the intention for good is there. I figure. Lets follow that thought for a moment.
I know that if I had money I would prefer to pay a person who wanted to associate with the term 'defence force' than pay a person who wanted to associate with the term 'resistance' or 'criminal'. Maybe we look at the words alone and ignore the deeper meaning behind them for this post.
From this, we have a 'department of defence' that employs 'armed forces'. I prefer guns in the hands of trained military personnel than the general public. So, if a person wants to learn about guns, they first have to associate with the term 'armed forces' (easy) and this falls under the term 'department of defence' (not so easy, because some of them probably aren't interested in defence but attacks). So, when I see a carrier fleet, I see a bunch of youths and men who have been diverted from whatever their original intention was, sometimes attack, towards carrying arms for the purpose of defence. The rest is posturing. What scares me is when people get more serious than this, and start believing that todays military is principally for aggression rather than defence. Because this gives the military a mandate. Of course, they don't always only act when they have a mandate...
It is not pathetic... it is sad and dangerous.
I have been trying for some time to warn. The fact that we spend so much in defense it doesn't mean that we have the best defense.
It is not about corruption, but our defense system is suffering the same "inefficiencies" that the Feds experience with Wall street. After the fall of the Soviet Union, without real enemies, the focus of the defense supply switched to make big bucks in the easiest possible way without worrying too much about anything else. Expensive stuff, not always needed sometimes not even performing, lots of waste. Everybody was happy making tons of money (at the expenses of tax payers, of course), or with the reward of a fabulous consultanting career in the private sector at the end of the miitary career. Sounds familiar?
When we left behind 1 billion$ in equipment for ISIS (paid for by tax payers), the defense industry sold 3 billions+ to the surrounding countries to defend themselves from the weapons left behind (these were private profits of course). It might have been a brilliant plan for whoever implemented it... Highly idiotic and very costly from the systemic point of view. So...
;-)
The expensive machinery of war was not paid for by tax payers and will not be paid for by tax payers. A debt that cannot be paid will not be paid.
Laser, technically you are right and you aren't at the same time. Our Debt reflects what we are worth. It means that if our system is made of three apples, you can create trillions in debt monetizing those apples with fancy distorsions... yet we are still worth three apples in real terms.
If let's say "Jack" diverts public funds for his personal gain, it is like to eat a share of those three apples that he should not be entitled to. So even if debt is not repaid per se, tax payers are indeed affected. I spare you the details on how we use money to allocate the resources of the system.
;-)
Carl, you say that "we outta at least be able to keep our country safe." Get it straight, Carl: It ain't our country any more, if it ever was. We're hired help here.
Since Obama took office an unprecedented number of top military leaders have been removed from their posts – nearly 200 generals, flag officers and other high-ranking officials. They are being “removed” at a rate of about one per week. It is being dismantled from within. Sad times.
I strongly suspect that the military had far more high-ranking officers than it needed, so perhaps some housecleaning was needed. I do wonder, however, if those purged were removed due to ideological or policy (or even gender?) issues. If they were removed for the same sorts of reasons that led to the IRS going after Tea Pary organizations, then concern would be justified.
I guess when you strip out all the costs of running the Pentagon bureaucracy, all the bases, boondoggle projects, maintaining old assets, etc, there is probably not as much left for lethal assets as we think.
Just because money is "spent" it does not mean it is spent wisely or productively.
It sure as heck isn't about the US men and women set to be annihiliated
@ greenskeeper carl
A few missiles are much wiser spent indeed than hugely expensive sitting ducks. An even better example: one or two supersonic cruise missiles to blow an aircraft carrier out of the water.
Case in point: the aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt in the Persian Gulf, named after the 26th US president. Was it a coincidence or a Russian message, that they launched 26 such cruise missiles from the Caspian Sea? In any case the AC T. Roosevelt was withdrawn from the Persian Gulf for the first time in six years...
But this is the danger: if the US provokes a war with rivals in the same league (instead of 3-4 ranks lower, like Iraq, etc.), it will soon discover it gets beaten out of options to win (or even continue the fight). Soon the nuclear option will be the only one left. And wars tend to not being ended until the last option has been exhausted to avoid surrender...
Russia does have some technological advantages over the U.S. though.
Russian missile technology is superior.
The S-400 surface to air defence system is two generations better than anything else in the world.
Russian missiles are superior too. Their ICMB's fly random path trajectories. They are the masters of multiple engine rockets.
Only the Russians have the ability to put a man in space.
America is a little self deluded and they too often extrapolate their warplane technology advantage into a blanket technology advantage. That's just not the case.
Russians arguably have some of the best computer programmers in the world. Combine that with engine technology with missiles and they are very capable.
The US weapons development is about union jobs, greasing palms, getting congressmen re-elected and lots of money. A lot of the software development must be done by H 1-bs from India because the F-35 software is shit as is the plane.
This general with his "brilliant" victory in Iraq would have a much different game with the Russians. The USA would not control the sky. Old 1970s Russian anti-tank missilies or Iranian and chinese copies are destroying Saudi Abrams M-1 tanks and Bradley like they are paper mache. Strykers would be destroyed even faster.
If the Russians used their newer Kornet anti-tank missiles it would be uglier. Thrown in ther really nasty MLRS SMERCH system which clears a battlefield and it gets ugly very fast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYnBmxjfld4
There jets are ahead of the Trayvon-USA and Europe. The missiles are better and even their trucks and military trucks like the Kamaz stuff is amazing and incredibly durable.
The USA is mostly on welfare. Even stupid American white males worship their Trayvon thug ball players like little girls. Especially the NCAA college students and alumni. Totally pathetic.
Strikes me as sensible to have an asymetrical strategy to use technologies like radars to see so called stealth, jamming to blind coms and missiles to destroy espensive assets. Very cost effective to use 5 or 6 million dollar Mach 2/3 missiles to kill a billion dollar destroyer or a missile or two ot kill a $180m jet.
For those villagers eagerly snapping pictures on the side of a road in the Czech Republic in late September, the appearance of the line of U.S. “Stryker” armored fighting vehicles must have seemed more like a parade than a large-scale military operation.
The author is an idiot. Hyperbole of this kind is sad. These people are well aware of what this means. One merely has to look back at the last 100 years of their history to see that they have been fucked nearly non-stop by great powers.
BS we shall see, think our missiles reloaded
"Well now, it seems entirely possible that the US may have to fight a conventional war against the Russians . . ."
Sorry, exactly how long do you think a war with Russia would remain CONVENTIONAL?
As soon a one side or the other started to lose, what do you think would happen? They will surrender?
Betcha right now if the Rooskies invaded continental Europe (NATO-US=Zilch) that we wouldn't pull the trigger.
The (Christian) Russians would be viewed as liberators by many Europeans who are being sold out by the zio-EU.
If you recall the Serbian/Kosovo war - that's what the Serbs thought would happen - Europe would thank and support.
But the world did not recognize the danger and instead the UN and NATO, managed by the US, put on a huge propaganda war.
NATO kicked the shit out of the Serbians and handed Kosovo to the Muslims.
So now "Kosovo" is completely Muslim and the churches are being destroyed while Kosovo applies to be a "UNESCO" country
Sadly, Russia was not in a position to stop what happened to Serbia.
Outin did not forget. He saw it again in Iraq, Syria and Libya. He was enraged by what ZATO did to Libya and Khadaffi. Khadaffi did a lot of good things for the Libyan people. He was taken out because he wanted to trade oil in something other than dollars. The ZATO thugs also wanted to loot Libya's gold and later steal the oil.
You're right about the dollar hegemony angle, but handing out trinkets can't make up for Qaddafi's dictatorship; be an apologist for someone less objectively heinous next time.
@Knucks
You're right we would respond with conventional means, which would then cause an esclation and much trigger pulling.
It's been nearly 80 years since the last big war, nobody knows what the fuck they're doing and the current group of pyschos in charge have more ego than brains. Better get your cowboy hat on those bomb bay doors are about to open.
I am very surprised that here everyone is talking about weapon only. But nobody here is talking about the rule of law!
US actions in Syria - it is illegal acts of military aggression against a sovereign country.
The gang is always a gang, even if the gang members call themselves the "Coalition" and even if the head of this gang is a corrupt cop.
The so-called "Anti Syrian coalition" led by the United States, in its essence, is a gang.
A nuclear war between the US and Russia could not start because one of them is stronger. A nuclear war can start only because Washington cynically violates all the basic norms of international law.
Really? We're suppose to be concerned about this? I remember having arguments about this as kids back in the 60's/70's ....
I remember too. FF to FY16 - Life still imitates Pentagon Tabletop Wargames: US Army loses "official" wargames every time; But - We can fix anything by throwing money at it!
Fiscal Cliff? What Fiscal Cliff?; Sequestration? What Sequestration?
DoD is appropriated even more "discretionary spending"; DoD fails to achieve GAO Audit Readiness; DoD Achieves Victory Conditions!
Hello, Chuck Hagel! Chuck Hagel plans Defense Budget Cuts; Good Bye, Chuck Hagel! Thank You For Your Service!
Meeting Warfighter Needs - It's All Good!
I would imagine a naval vessels electronics are well protected from magnetic fields... surely the engineers took the possibility of an emp or two into consideration when designing a modern ship of war.
reminds me of stories I've heard from a friend who used to work on a US nuclear submarine about 25 years ago. He said there was a lot fo gay sex going on especially in the missiles room
Maybe but I don't think so. Even if they were 'hardened' the real issue that Russian jamming technologies are quite clever in terms of how they work. If you have not built systems from the ground up to counter you are really at a disadvantage.
Their combat data links are the weakness.They are blind without them.
You cannot triangulate,for missile interception, with a single ships radar.
The whole system in the combat information centers revolves arounf multiple
data feed.The old soviet spy trawlers found this weakness years ago,the current Russian military
has found a way to exploit it.Aegis is a total boondoggle.
Guys, do not believe anyone who says that any part of any system is managable. Saying "I can win a war" is the same as saying "I can see the future and inside other men's minds". No you an't. You are throwing dice every time, and war is a very negative-sum game, most players don't even break even. Both can easily lose very badly, far more han they ever could have conceviablely won. I believe all modern wars have been of thar variety.
The cost of bad government keeps increasing. The cost of sufficient firepower to cause a 1% loss of GDP is within the budget of a religkous cult with intelligence service ties. We spend more than 25$ of our GDP on policing, monitoring, checking, verifying. The overhead of our military is at least 10% of GDP, our industry would kill for that kind of cost advantage. The costs of dishonest are so huge.
I wonder if that's why the personal tax exemption in the US is $9,750 while here in Australia it's about 18 200 AUD and in the Uk it's 11100 GBP (about 16705 USD)
Exactly. Best case scanario is you spend a ton of money on weapons you can't get further use out of and get many people killed.
A 1% loss of GDP? Shit just raise the cost of gas $10 a barrel at the right time and you're there.
I'd like to think our MIC is focused on the job at hand, but the sad truth is that they've been co-opted by the no-bid profiteers squeezing dollars out of our troops safety.
this is yet another thread where the Russophiles bench race their tech against the US and declare it superior... yawn
So What? Why is it so important to War Game Russia?
who Cares?
Since WW2 the US Armed Forces have not been built to win wars.
The armed forces have been designed simply to scam and suck every nickel and dime out of Mr. and Mrs. Knuckle head.
An army built on corruption for corruption does not win wars versus the Russian Bear who has been built to win and defend the homeland.
Russian defense policy has since WW2 focused on defensive technologies such as rocketry sciences, integrated tank warfare, and air superiority/ground attack support.
Compare this to USA strategy and the USA is really a joke.
Graft for graft .... simple truth; sorry Yanks but you know it is true.
That had to be a sobering moment for the men crewing the Ageis system on the USS Donald Cook.
Sitting on a defenseless tin can target in a tub is a shitty job description by anyones standards.
http://www.streetinsider.com/dr/news.php?id=11045373
Maybe in May 1945, for about 3 months or so...
Fool...
Hows that satellite data treating you Flak 18 years and 9 months no warming, crap all those carbon credits for shit and don't even talk to me about Antarctic ice...
I know lets only rely on peer reviewed science, boy that's the cats meow, never any fraud there as its PEER REVIEWED....
http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2015/10/31/peer-review-fraud-on-the-rise-at...
Oh look, the ocean is still getting monotonically warmer. Seen any massive hurricanes lately?
Only 2, just 2........Off the coast of Yemen..........Hardly ever happend in history, ever.......nothing here to see, it ain't in your back yard, you fucking know nothing punk! Where was abortion when we needed it?
I think it's pretty clear that no one "wins" the next war between Russia and the US.
And why is the US seeking a "battle" with Russia anyway? This is completely absurd....are the neo-cons/neo-libs this fucked up?
Yep!
Yep. The new Bolsheviks are criminally insane.
Just like the old ones.
The US? No, Uncle Fraud is trying to get Americans to condone and approve another war through constant media manipulation.
Every major war needs public approval. It doesn't happen until the media maneuvers American zombies into acceptance.
Kent State was the beginning of the end of the Vietnam war. The losses we were incurring were too great for the public to accept. Which also helps to explain why we have switched over to remote control and drone warfare. We can still spend ocean carriers of money which the American public overlooks as a cost for "safety" and the loss of life is minimized therefore less backlash.
Tell me why this hasn't occurred to you?
When I graduated High School, 1977, there was no draft and no selective service. I never had to register for selective service. If I'm required to show some means of proof, I provide my USMC DD214.
At the time, they were still in the transition from the draft to an all-volunteer military. That usually meant we got an apology after a kick in the nads or a solid thump in the gut. From what I understand they don't have any sort of that thing anymore.
My knees gave out in AIT and I was Honorably Discharged. So I did exactly jack-shit in the Marines and deserve nothing from my experience.
and they are generally pussies and they believe in invisible 'masters' etc. the list of mental defects goes on
Bye bye US hegemony
More scarey bullshit to whip up more support for spending trillions on another armored up coffin, flying battleship or space shotgun, not that I am under any illusion that the U.S. would win but God Damn, if you don't start a fucking war then you won't have to fight a war.
Yes, this. And it works well because all sides lap it up. The MIC has the politicians push the agenda and fear. TPTB have the MSM push it and the sheep eat it up like always. The Putin fan club jumps on the band wagon because its the fantasy they wish was true.
What's the point of having all those cool, high tech, expensive, shinny toys if you don't get to use them?
My English teacher talked about this Russian guy who said that if you see a gun in the first half of a book, you can be sure it'll go off in the second half. Somebody was going to use that gun.
from: "Arizona Dream" by Emir Kusturica
"The problem for The Pentagon isn't so much that the US has fallen behind in terms of spending money on expensive war toys (i.e. we don't necessarily doubt that Washington has the best technology).Rather, the US seems to have fallen behind in terms of its ability to fight a conventional war against a formidable foe, presumably because there really haven't been any formidable foes in decades."
I tend to disagree. The Western world lost the moral high ground when it started hiring mercenaries to do the dirty work. Russia simply called that out in a rather brilliant strategic move. Now the public opinion has become aware and has turned accordingly.
Now the question is what Pearl Harbor event will occur to polarize people and, with the internet, will it be credible?
'Moral highground' is an extremely fungible concept.
Everyone always has it.
Need MOAR money so I won't get annihilated.
No wonder the Nobel Prize Winner is pushing Putin into a new world war. CIA created ISIS blows up Russian passenger jet. F-15s sent to Turkey to attack Russian jets. Obama continues to attack oil to bankrupt Russia.
US deploys F-15s to Syria, targeting Russian jets
By Thomas Gaist
7 November 2015
The US will send a squadron of F-15C fighter jets to Turkey’s Incirlik air base, the US Defense Department (DOD) announced on Friday. The nature of the US war planes, which are specifically designed for dogfighting with other highly advanced fighter jets, indicates that the deployment carries a significance far beyond what its small scale would suggest.
The F-15 line of combat jets was developed in response to the unveiling in 1967 of the Soviet Union’s MiG-25 “Foxbat” interceptor.
Because they are designed for air-to-air combat against other major powers, the US has, until now, seen no need to deploy the F-15C model to its Middle Eastern and Central Asian war theaters, where the opposing forces have no warplanes.
The sudden deployment, coming less than two months after Russia began sending its own SU-30 fighters to its new airbase at Latakia, makes clear that the jets have been deployed in response to Moscow’s air campaign.
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/11/07/syri-n07.html
Stakes are high as US plays the oil card against Iran and Russia
John Kerry, the US secretary of state, allegedly struck a deal with King Abdullah in September under which the Saudis would sell crude at below the prevailing market price. That would help explain why the price has been falling at a time when, given the turmoil in Iraq and Syria caused by Islamic State, it would normally have been rising.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2014/nov/09/us-iran-r...