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Volkswagen Admits To Equipping Audis, Porsches With Second Illegal Defeat Device

Tyler Durden's picture




 

When last we checked in on Volkswagen and the widening emissions scandal, we learned that in addition to software installed on some 11 million diesel vehicles designed to game nitrogen oxide tests, Germany’s largest carmaker has also been habitually understating CO2 output on around 800,000 cars sold in Europe. 

In a nutshell, the company said it found “unexplained inconsistencies” while conducting an internal probe related to carbon-dioxide output.

For the first time, gasoline engines were said to be affected. 

"VW is leaving us all speechless," Evercore ISI’s Arndt Ellinghorst said.

Well Arndt, prepare to be left speechless-er, because now, the company has admitted that some 85,000 Audi engines contained a second defeat device just weeks after saying (and this is about as explicit as it gets) that “no software has been installed in the three-litre V6 diesel power units to alter emissions characteristics in a forbidden manner”.

As it turns out, software had been installed in all three-litre V6 diesel power units. As FT reports, “the luxury car brand of the VW group admitted that the software was in all three-litre V6 diesel engines manufactured by Audi and sold from 2009 until this year.”

So no big deal, just every single three-litre V6 diesel vehicle sold for the past seven years. 

FT goes on to note that after a meeting between Audi’s chief executive, the company’s engineers, and the US Environmental Protection Agency, the carmaker “sent out a statement saying that it had failed to disclose three auxiliary emissions control devices (AECDs) to regulators. Without disclosure and subsequent approval from regulators, AECDs are not legal.”

“One of them,” the company added, “is regarded as a defeat device according to applicable US law. Specifically, this is the software for the temperature conditioning of the exhaust-gas cleaning system.”

Apparently, the company will stop selling 3.0 litre TDI-equipped Audi A6s, A7s, A8s, Q5s and Q7s, VW Touaregs and Porsche Cayennes. 

According to Bloomberg, Audi "agreed to revise and resubmit data concerning the V6 TDI 3-liter diesel engine to U.S. authorities after negotiations." The cost affecting Audi, Porsche and VW for a software update is expected to be in the “mid-double-digit millions of euros” range.

To be sure, the writing was already on the wall here. As Bloomberg noted on Friday, "Thursday’s meeting between company officials, EPA and the California regulators involved technical experts who talked about three pieces of equipment on the 3.0-liter engines that should have been disclosed as auxiliary emissions control devices." According to the EPA, one of the three devices qualifies as a defeat device.

And so, it just keeps getting worse and in fact, the bad news is piling up so quick that analysts can't keep up with it. For instance, earlier today, Deutsche Bank said the following: "...the product offensive Audi is currently rolling should help to sustain a healthy pricing environment going forward. Obviously this weekend’s newflow might change this at least in the US."

Yes, "obviously", especially when one variant of every single model besides the A4 and the TT is now under a stop sale order.

Additionally, it's hilarious to note that despite it all, Germany's manufacturing PMI came in at 52.6 today, a three-month high. 

In any event, we'll anxiously await the analyst response on Tuesday to see just how much more "speechless" everyone is and in the meantime, we would note that if you thought "stability in volatile times" was a hilariously ironic tagline for a VW coporate presentation...

... then you'll love being reminded of Audi's mantra...

 

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Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:17 | 6829854 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Still waiting for VW's 2016 models with radar absorbing new paint colors..

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:26 | 6829894 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Fahrfeghidethedeclinen

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:32 | 6829910 glenlloyd
glenlloyd's picture

Watch while unelected bureaucrats kill a manufacturing titan.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:49 | 6829974 ACP
ACP's picture

Not only that, they're destroying companies for having exceptional customer service.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:19 | 6830057 Four chan
Four chan's picture

is there a jew out there with a class action i can join to sue zee germans over my cayenne emissions?

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:46 | 6830151 Pairadimes
Pairadimes's picture

The fact that first world democracies have all metastacized into fascist regulatory police states and turned everyone into criminals is not news. 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 00:18 | 6830199 Gaius Frakkin' ...
Gaius Frakkin' Baltar's picture

To all the fuck-tards asserting that VW engineers lack ethics...

How about the ethics of the engineers helping the NSA spy on everyone? Or the ethics of the engineers who develop weapons for uncle satan (TOW missiles anyone)? And of course the ethics of those GM engineers who knew the ignitions were killing people... those guys are like saints or something.

Nope, none of that matters. Only CO2, the most “dangerous” chemical known to man matters. Apparently, more dangerous than radioactive plutonium being ejected from Fukushima.

The whole world needs a fucking reality check. Maybe that's why war is inevitable.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 00:26 | 6830247 Four chan
Four chan's picture

this tech came from porsche, mark my words.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 01:32 | 6830367 COSMOS
COSMOS's picture

DEFEAT is the new Euphemism for CHEATING

I tried to defeat my finals, fight the power, more power to the partying students who cram the night before the exam.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 02:00 | 6830410 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

1. cosmos has a spooky avatar.

2. "habitually understating CO2 output" is part of capn trade aka carbon offsets aka bid-low sell-high aka etc

3. I think maybe the eyes are way bigger than the mouth. is that why the avatar is spooky?

4. sometimes I undeerstate my CO2 output. maybe that is wrong, but still. 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 03:20 | 6830501 Anonymous User
Anonymous User's picture

Like back in the days when men used cars mostly to impress chicks, now they have the opportunity to go back to that by bragging that the car is more "environmently friendly".

Chicks dig that nonsense. This could become the new line for picking up chicks.

 

http://goo.gl/DQAN8D

 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 04:33 | 6830565 Peanut Butter E...
Peanut Butter Engineer's picture

Nowadays chicks has their own car so it's pretty hard to impress them your economic midlevel cars.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 09:12 | 6831296 mtl4
mtl4's picture

Nice, thanks EPA, time to pick up a Cayanne diesel on the cheap now.......time to take aim at Lamborghini and Ferrari too!

 

 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 03:22 | 6830504 Ward no. 6
Ward no. 6's picture

spooky wtf in what way???

i think it is a nice avatar...

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 01:28 | 6830358 uhland62
uhland62's picture

Techs normally do as they are told. What about the techs who tested IMB processing systems in Ausdchwitz and some such like. 

Germans are always gypping. I experienced it often, last time from the Kohl-Regime. 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 03:05 | 6830483 KJWqonfo7
KJWqonfo7's picture

The fucking Germans hold their nose high up in the air telling the rest of the world how superior they are in every way.  Seems like the only thing they are superior at is bullshit!!

Want to spend half your time at the dealer, buy one of these pieces of crap.

When its not broke, it's busy shitting on the environment the Germans claim to love SOOOO much!!

Catching Germans cheating is the only decent thing the EPA has done in the last 10 years.

 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 03:59 | 6830544 Fish Gone Bad
Fish Gone Bad's picture

Some of those plastic engine parts were made to crack, leak or just break.  An auxillary water pump?  Plastic dip stick tubes?  The plastic gets hot (because its in the engine compartment) and fails.  Then the owner gets to go to the dealer.  The cars are undriveable with some of the stupidist plastic part failures.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 08:25 | 6831105 Refuse-Resist
Refuse-Resist's picture

Plastic dipstick tube... yep failed on my Jetta TDI. A car with 205k miles on it, and only 2 unplanned maintenance events in 10 years, all while averaging 42 mpg overall in that time.

Fix:  take a flexible metal funnel (Amazon.com -- $5)  and cut the funnel part off, leaving only the flexy tube. Guess what? The base of it fits perfectly in the engine block!  Problem solved for $5.

Only an idiot takes an out of warranty car to a stealership for repair. A fucking helpless no manual skill brainwashed idiot. IOW a typical coastal city dwelling mangina who probably has to pay an electrician to change a faulty outlet or a plumber to fix a leaky faucet.

My TDI has been completely drivable except for a few hours in both of the cases mentioned above (fuel pump, and alternator clutch pulley).

The original clutch lasted 203k miles for crying out loud.  This has been the best car I've ever owned bar none.

Perhaps you'd prefer a CVT equipped Nissan Versa, or a 9 speed automatic equipped Dodge Dart? Cars that when the transmission fails, will be scrap metal because said transmission will cost more to replace than car is worth.

I'll keep driving that old diesel M/T car till the wheels fall off, then I'll bolt them back on and keep going.

Liberal knashing of teeth over a company getting over on the government is rather amusing. As if the big banks, insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, and defense contractors don't do it and on a mucn larger and more destructive scale.

They get upset about what NPR and HuffPo tells them to get upset about.  I'm surprised NPR isn't advocating air strikes on VW headquarters.

And I take it you're never heard of GMs plastic intake manifolds either.

 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 00:08 | 6830202 Save_America1st
Save_America1st's picture

fuck the EPA scumbags and their bullshit regulations.  Fuck 'em!  VW did what they needed to to get around the bullshit EPA regs that are all based on total fucking lies anyway.  They make some of the cleanest running and efficient high MPG cars in the world and they shouldn't have to deal w/ any fuckers from the EPA or any other equivalent Euro-trash enviro-Nazi assholes either.  VW's software isn't the fucking problem in this world.

Criminal government and government agencies are the fucking problem in this world.  Fucking treasonous assholes, all of 'em. 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 08:41 | 6831159 kralizec
kralizec's picture

The only thing bureaucrats deserve is defenestration from great heights.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:21 | 6830069 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

If VW was a bank, the taxpayers would be covering the recall(s).

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:27 | 6830090 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

I want my old Pontiac back.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 01:05 | 6830277 Gaius Frakkin' ...
Gaius Frakkin' Baltar's picture

I don't. Mine never made it to 100k.

The Chevy Impala was a better car... ignoring the ignition switch failure, lower manifold gasket blowout, the transmission wearing out so soon, and replacing the coolant fittings at least 3 times. I babied that bitch too. It's almost at 150k, and I have a soft spot for it, despite the fact that it could have killed us, it's junk, and I hate GM.

It was time to try something different with VW.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 04:02 | 6830547 Fish Gone Bad
Fish Gone Bad's picture

My Nissan pickup has 350,000 miles on it.  I love that truck so much. 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 08:28 | 6831113 Refuse-Resist
Refuse-Resist's picture

Yep. Timing CHAINS for the motherfucking win! FUCK TIMING BELTS and 60k maintenance intervals!

 

 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 09:39 | 6831496 TemporarySecurity
TemporarySecurity's picture

I want my old international harvester scout back. Never did any work on the engine or the transmission. The odometer did die at about 575,000 miles so I have no idea how many miles were on the engine when I sold it. Probably three quarters of 1 million miles. The vehicle ran great, everything else on the vehicle was bio degrading such as the door fell off twice and had to be welded back on

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:43 | 6829895 Welfare Tycoon
Welfare Tycoon's picture
"Volkswagen Admits To Equipping Audis, Porsches With Second Illegal Defeat Device"

I have a better title:

Two More Car Brands That You Should Buy

 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 04:45 | 6830569 Paveway IV
Paveway IV's picture

Second illegal defeat device? See - that's why people buy Audis and Porsches. Overengineered with redundant illegal defeat devices. That's quality I can count on. American manufacturers would only use a cheap, single, unreliable defeat device with crappy, outsourced programming. I would be the one stuck with the repair bill when it failed the emissions test.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 07:34 | 6830953 Arnold
Arnold's picture

Personally I am beginning to enjoy replacing cam sensors on my F-350.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:16 | 6829855 Dragon HAwk
Dragon HAwk's picture

Truth... I don't think that word means what you think it Does.

 

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:30 | 6829906 glenlloyd
glenlloyd's picture

I'm just sure our president knows what the truth is...

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:43 | 6829954 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

A billion dollar fine to Obama's third-term reelection campaign will fix this.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:58 | 6830181 oldmanofthesee
oldmanofthesee's picture

Speaking of the majic kneegrow........Volkswagen will pay $20 billion in fines, and not one fatality resulted from their cheating. GM's ignition switch killed  124 people..........and a slap on the wrist?

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 00:08 | 6830203 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

Not one fatality?  Sorry, probably many thousands of fatalities from breathing polluted air.  COPD and pulmonary diseases and cancers are a serious matter and vehicle air pollution is a big contributer.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 01:45 | 6830389 bkwaz4
bkwaz4's picture

Sorry.  Not from VW,Audi, or Porsche efficient automotive diesel emmissions.  Maybe from protected GM, Ford, or Dodge crap.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 03:15 | 6830495 KJWqonfo7
KJWqonfo7's picture

"Ze Japanese cars and American cars are inferior, the fatherland has created cars that clean the air as you drive.  Now please poiitician take some of these euros and ban everyone else from playing.  Klaus has delivered a new car to your home as well as a german mistress"

Ford, GM, and Dodge compete with these cheating assholes.  Their lies make everyones product more expensive.

Ban these fucks from selling their crap in the US!!!

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:30 | 6829908 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Pompous Pudgy Executive: We are confident that the new Merkel SUV will right the ship.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:53 | 6829983 Selly2k
Selly2k's picture

We Folks wagoned some folks.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:16 | 6829856 PoasterToaster
PoasterToaster's picture

Volkswagon should just tell governments to fuck off.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:20 | 6829871 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Bad idea.

VW should have paid before they played like everyone else. Now it's going to cost them more.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:30 | 6830104 FireBrander
FireBrander's picture

"Lobby" first VW morons! Then you can't break the law because you will have written it!

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 00:15 | 6830216 VWAndy
VWAndy's picture

That sounds like good advice. China will love them and that XL1 sports car thingy.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:44 | 6829863 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

   I guess "Iron Man"Tony Stark is going to have to start shopping for some new sponsor's?

 I like the soundtrack though. lulz

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:20 | 6829870 MissCellany
MissCellany's picture

LIARvergnugen!

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:22 | 6829878 NoWayJose
NoWayJose's picture

Good German engineering!

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:03 | 6830011 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

On behalf of all plants - and anyone who self-identifies as a plant - who use CO2, I heartily endorse the actions of those German engineers who provided the extra CO2.

CO2...Yum.

(And for those confused by my referring to anyone who self-identifies as a plant, think "couch potato" or "shrinking violet".)

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:24 | 6829884 Catullus
Catullus's picture

Anyone who lies to the us government to put a better and cheaper product on the road is a hero. A fool. But a hero.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:24 | 6829885 scintillator9
scintillator9's picture

Reading this article and seeing that Audi "Truth in Engineering" ad at the end made me think of the Dead Kennedy's song California Uber Alles for some reason.....

I am Governor Jerry Brown
My aura smiles
And never frowns
Soon I will be president...

Carter Power will soon go away
I will be Fuhrer one day
I will command all of you
Your kids will meditate in school
Your kids will meditate in school!

[Chorus:]
California Uber Alles
California Uber Alles
Uber Alles California
Uber Alles California

Zen fascists will control you
100% natural
You will jog for the master race
And always wear the happy face

Close your eyes, can't happen here
Big Bro' on white horse is near
The hippies won't come back you say
Mellow out or you will pay
Mellow out or you will pay!

[Chorus]

Now it is 1984
Knock-knock at your front door
It's the suede/denim secret police
They have come for your uncool niece

Come quietly to the camp
You'd look nice as a drawstring lamp
Don't you worry, it's only a shower
For your clothes here's a pretty flower.

DIE on organic poison gas
Serpent's egg's already hatched
You will croak, you little clown
When you mess with President Brown
When you mess with President Brown

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:30 | 6829905 captainkid
captainkid's picture

there is always room for Jello!!!

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:25 | 6829890 TuPhat
TuPhat's picture

I wish I had one of the good VWs.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:33 | 6829914 Automatic Choke
Automatic Choke's picture

yes, we're very happy with our year-old diesel-turbo jetta. 

they screwed the EPA (and themselves), but not the customers.

 

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:40 | 6829942 Ralph Spoilsport
Ralph Spoilsport's picture

You might have a problem if your state refuses to renew registration on it because of this mess. Hope not since you obviously like the car. 

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:31 | 6830109 Shpedly
Shpedly's picture

They're also going to have a problem when the POS breaks. The DEF/catalyst system is a nightmare that will not only break your wallet; it will break your spirit. Before you think of buying a "low maintenance , fuel sipping" TDI with a DSG transmission, call your VW dealer and see what a 40K service costs. If its less than $900 your getting a deal. This is coming from somebody who owns an independent VW repair shop going on 30 years.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 00:41 | 6830274 Ralph Spoilsport
Ralph Spoilsport's picture

Here's an example of "false neutral" when the DSG tranny starts failing. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6q_ziSTbRI

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 01:20 | 6830339 Otrader
Otrader's picture

Another reason I stuck with an older TDI.  The TDIclub forum has a 'how to' section on just about anything on that car.  DSG is great when it works, but expensive to repair.

We had a co-worker's wife get stranded with their TDI Sport wagon at 70k recently.   Turns out these high pressure fuel pumps on the newer TDI's fail without warning.  The repair was 7500 dollars.  Due to so many failures, VW extended the warranty on the HPFP to 120k.  downside is after that, you'll be looking at a 7500 repair at some point...again.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 05:42 | 6830662 Seer
Seer's picture

Early HPFPs were causing problems not just for VW, but also for BMW and Ford.  BMW quietly resolved the problem (with little inconvenience to owners) by going with a different pump (design) from Bosch.  Ford, on the other hand, has managed to stonewall the issue by way of foisting the problem on International: one reason why I'm not so keen on having a manufacturer that does heavy outsourcing.

Some of the issues can be seen in this NHTSA document concerning VW stalling due to pump issues (it doesn't specifically address pump failures, but it does pull that subject into their investigation):

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM475595/INCR-E...

As can be seen in that doc, VW has gone through numerous pump changes (actually, it would be Bosch doing the work).

Some history on Common Rail (CR), which necessitates the use of an HPFP:

https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/diesel_fi_common-rail.php

I think that VW finally went with a new spec on the pumps, so, for the most part, the pumps are more robust.  No idea if they're of the robustness of that used by BMW (or say, for the truck world, Cummins).

Even all the construction/Ag diesels are pretty much CR; and, they have to be Tier-4- DPF stuff.

Lastly, I'd like to state that I don't think that anyone has bothered to measure the true costs for the lower emissions.  I'm OK with the notion/idea of lower emissions (generally this also means greater efficiency, to a  point).  But where are the measurements for all the manufacturing necessary for replacement or cleaning stuff (DPF)? needs to also take into consideration costs in REDUCED fuel efficiency*, labor and disposal costs as well.  If you add up all this are we still ahead does it still come out ahead?  I would like to see actual  numbers: I won't do, as many do, knee-jerk (in either direction).

*  Using MORE fuel to reduce emissions- huh?

For more on DPF:

http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/engine/1107dp-dpf-the-time-bomb-under-y...

I have ALHs (50+ mpg, even modded).  Truck and tractor are both IDI: no electronics at all.  I do all my own maintenance and repairs.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 08:38 | 6831144 Refuse-Resist
Refuse-Resist's picture

When you see DSG and transmission in the same line, RUN. RUN AWAY  and do not buy.

Worst piece of shit transmssion for every day use. Great on the race track especially when your factory mechanic can rebuild it after every race. But for daily driving it is a ticking timebomb waiting to turn your otherwise working car into scrap metal.

Case in point:  2006 New Beetle TDI.  Grandma-owned. DSG equipped. All service done according to factory spec and schedule. AT 98k miles, DSG goes haywire.

Minimum charge to replace (can't be rebuilt):  $5500 + labor.  KBB retail value of car: $5500.

Hmm. What should grandma do?

Pull the motor, and scrap the Mexican made piece of shit.  Or put in some 'marvel mystery oil' and sell that bitch 'as is;' for a grand under KBB value and  hope it holds together long enough that the buyer doesn't come back (what I did).

As a lifelong gearhead/car guy, I"m telling you NEVER BUY ANY CAR WITH A DSG TRANSMISSION unless you plan on selling that car before 100k miles. NEVER. 

Did I mention the minimum $400 service (that you cannot DIY without $500 in special software and tools -- there is no dipstick to tell you proper fluid level) every 40k miles?

Compare that to my TDI with a M/t. I changed the M/T fluid at 150k miles, and spent ~$1000 replacing the clutch at 203k.

A/T? Do not want.

DSG? RUN AWAY!

 

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:48 | 6829972 vollderlerby
vollderlerby's picture

Right on!  Got a Passat TDI that gives me 50mpg highway because they lied to the EPA.  I should be paying them :)  Resale value?  Who care, I'm keeping that puppy!!

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:16 | 6830047 Shpedly
Shpedly's picture

You'd have to find an old air cooled model to do that.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:20 | 6830058 ChanceIs
ChanceIs's picture

Vee W, Pee W.

What you want is a nice old - say 1999 Mercedes turbo diesel.  Then you cn go to the Mercedes Forums and see where all of the other owners have plotted and designed defeat devices for thier EGR systems.  The best art is that the cars are no longer subject to emissions inspections - at least in Maryland.

Disabling EGR

In general it's felt that having the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) system on diesel engines is good for reducing the NOX output but bad in all other respects.
It reduces economy, creates more smoke, increases problems and maintenance requirements due to clogging the intake and can reduce overall engine life.
As a result of wanting greater economy I decided to stop the exhaust gas being recirculated. The problem with doing this on a modern engine is that the EGR valve operation is monitored by the MAF sensor.
The only way to disable the EGR and not trip a fault code and limp home mode is to fool the MAF into thinking the EGR is still working.

On another forum I saw a member Karteck was also looking into this and performing some testing on what resistance values to use to create the required drop in MAF output when the MAF should be operating. He provided the below circuit to use.

The basic circuit for this comprises of two resistors to act as a potential divider and a diode to stop 12v being fed into the MAF circuit.

By connecting into the EGR vacuum transducer activation wire this causes the circuit to only operate when the transducer should be operating the EGR valve.

The standard circuit is a 1k ohm resistor, a 470 ohm resistor and a diode. 1/4 Watt resistors work OK.

http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showthread.php?t=68928

Wonderful!!!!!!

 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 06:16 | 6830755 Seer
Seer's picture

One can also do EGR "deletes" with other diesel engines as well.  Note, however, that a lot of EGR-related issues can be attributed to improper driving style: diesels don't like city/stop-and-go driving, and they want to be run a bit harder (with turbos you need to push them a bit from time to time), older oils and older fuels (non-ULSD).

For sure, the OM606 engine is a great one!

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 10:33 | 6831785 ChanceIs
ChanceIs's picture

OM606 is fine for sure.

I do give the car an "Italian tune-up" every now and then.  Living in the Washington, DC area, I do abuse the vehicle with a lot of start and stop and short trips where it never really gets hot.  Fuel builds up in the oil.  I change it more frequently.  I find a nice hill - typically I495 rising out of the Potomac Valley - American Legion Bridge - drop it down into second and rev the living s*&t out of it all the way up.  I got rid of a check engine light that way once.  Just recently invested in a code reader.  Don't know what the previous check engine was about, but it hasn't come back.

Having to replace all of my fuels lines now.  It has gotten cold, and air bubbles are visible within them. My mechanic tells me it is the EPA's new fuel (ULSD?) that eats the O-rings around all of the ten or so quick disconnects.  Setting me back about $150 on parts.  My mechanic wanted about $500 to do the job. Sorry - I will take care of that one myself.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:21 | 6830066 Otrader
Otrader's picture

Still running a 2000 jetta TDI with 1/4 million miles.  The car runs like when i got it at 110k - 9 years ago.   Added a bigger turbo/injectors and an outfit in Canada (Malone Tuning) provided a tune for the car that added another 75hp.  Still gets around 45mpg/avg and runs like a champ.  Wife hates the car..."ewwww, smells!!"

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 05:48 | 6830685 Seer
Seer's picture

I have two ALHs.  Not as modded as your Jetta though: pushing around 120 hp and 250+ ft-lbs of torque (it's the torque that's the thing!).  Both average (combined driving) 50+ mpg.

"tune for the car that added another 75hp"

Actually, the tune doesn't ADD anything, it just ENABLES your car's computer to take advantage to the physical upgrades that you made (turbo and injectors).

Smell tends to be EGR-related.  I've got Dynamic EGR and I notice that that resulted in more "smell."  I'm not really a fan of bio-diesel, but if you put some of that in your tank then your wife won't be complaining of the smell.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:28 | 6829901 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

Global warming, bitchez!

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:28 | 6829903 captainkid
captainkid's picture

this whole diesel cheat is non-sense. the alt is to install a def system that can be "cheated" by putting water in the tank.

the easiest way to limit polution is to increase mpg. there is a finite amout of polution from a gallon of fuel, get more miles per gallon = polute less per mile. 

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:39 | 6829937 rapetrain
rapetrain's picture

I think you're right as long as the drivers are using Diesel Exhaust Fluid (urea).

The smaller Volkswagen cars only have catalytic converters.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 06:25 | 6830773 Seer
Seer's picture

VW opted to go cheap, to avoid the DEF system.  Mazda was trying to go this route, but just struggled to get something out likely because they couldn't reproduce VW's fudged numbers..  The clue should have been that BMW and MB didn't go this route: especially BMW, why would they look to add anything that would have a greater negative impact on performance? (I believe that BMW uses both emissions systems; SCR and DEF)

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:30 | 6829904 Omega_Man
Omega_Man's picture

I'll take on at 25 % of cost

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:32 | 6829912 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

This is what happens when you ask for your Gold back !!!!

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 04:42 | 6830566 silvertri
silvertri's picture

not often I comment but this is a classic mate!!

 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 04:42 | 6830567 silvertri
silvertri's picture

not often I comment but this is a classic mate!!

 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 06:46 | 6830821 Seer
Seer's picture

I suspect that other manufacturers had a big behind-the-scenes part in all of this.  I'd noted above that Mazda has been struggling to get an SCR-only diesel out the door; they likely were just completely dumbfounded as to how VW was able to do it; and when emissions folks noted the findings I'm pretty sure that Mazda pitched in to criticize.  Also figure out all the other manufacturers that have had to end up going with DPF/DEF systems: where to start? BMW, MB, GM, CAT, Cummins, and all the heavy equipment and AG manufacturers (they go with a passive DPF system, but it's still an added expense- equipment and servicing).

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:34 | 6829917 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

BMW

Mercedes

Who is next ?????

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 00:24 | 6830242 rapetrain
rapetrain's picture

Mercedes didn't trade a live cow for some magic beans and went with the standard Diesel Exhaust Fluid.

Volksagen and Audi are the scumbags who went with the NOx trap and then decided to not use it because it takes too much fuel to clean.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 06:49 | 6830830 Seer
Seer's picture

Hm... work for a competitor? (the "scumbags" wording tends to suggest so- everything else, though, is a valid/accurate assessment)

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:37 | 6829932 Ralph Spoilsport
Ralph Spoilsport's picture

Mid 80's, a guy I worked with transferred down from upstate New York and brought his early version of a VW Passat with him. After a few years of corrosion from the road salt it was starting to look pretty bad. One day he was running late and crossed the railroad tracks nearby a little too fast. The damn thing literally broke in half in a jagged line under the front seats because the floor pan was rusted away. The sparks from scraping the concrete caused a fire fed from the severed fuel line. The guy got out safely but the VW burned to the ground. Those of us with steel framed, rear wheel drive cars felt vindicated.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 06:59 | 6830861 Seer
Seer's picture

And I remember those Ford Pintos that used to explode!

Don't you think that things might have changed over the course of all these years?

VW noted corrosion issues with their MK3s and embarked on a pretty big quest to address them in their MK4 series.  I have an MK4 that lived in a hostile (upper Great Lakes) region and I can attest to the fact that the efforts are pretty clear: very little rust.

"Those of us with steel framed, rear wheel drive cars felt vindicated."  And most don't have the safety features; nor do they achieve the fuel mileage of the newer (and better rust-proofed) vehicles.  While your heavy-framed iron chassis might be more robust, other components aren't necessarily so, in which case those could essentially defeat any margin of safety that you think you might have with that extra iron.

I'll take extra iron in my tractor (and truck) for $1,000, Alex! (in my cars I'll take non-Japanese airbags over extra iron)

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:37 | 6829933 803Mastiff
803Mastiff's picture

What is the fine for Govment installing countless illegal defeat devises on economic statistics?

 

http://www.mediaite.com/online/man-tries-to-prove-his-name-is-real-after-facebook-shuts-down-account-three-times/

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:40 | 6829940 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

Speaking of "Defeat Devices"... behold the...

Catalytic converter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:47 | 6829963 Pascal1967
Pascal1967's picture

Sweet!! I love it when peolple screw over the gov't dumbasses ... I hate it when they get caught, though! GO VW!!!! Love it!!! If EPA douchebags want to believe that unicorn-powered cars can yield 100 mpg, then fucking tell them: "We Made It Happen!!" They are so stupid, and physics-challenged, they will believe it until some dumbass whistleblower blows the cover. In the meantime, take the cash!!! Honestly, HOW HAS ANYONE BEEN AFFECTED BY VW????

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 07:05 | 6830887 Seer
Seer's picture

It's not ONLY the EPA (there are regs in other countries as well), but, and perhaps more so, it's the competitors that are more responsible for the pressures on VW.  As I noted above, Mazda really wanted to penetrate the small-diesel market.

I agree, however, that the requirements are the issue.  But for the competitors to be up against someone that doesn't have to comply with the rules of the game, well... (think shareholders here)

I don't like VAG (VW): I don't like many corporations; VAG, though, not at all.  BUT, I own some of their (older) products and am fine with them.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:58 | 6829966 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

   I'd love to spin a '15 ZO-6 on a skidpad with any AWD R-8.

 Audi's are lead sleds.[even the 4 wheel driven ones]

 I saw one of those electic BMW-1-8's  a couple of days ago.

 It sounded like a sewing machine.

 I'm all for new technology, but that car was bult like an old ferrari 308 quatrovalvo, with an electric motor.

 The Ferrari, at least makes some noise through that beautiful 4 cam motor.

 Okay the electric car is faster. lol

 Disney Land on roids.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 22:55 | 6829987 Berspankme
Berspankme's picture

What's the fine for the government tapping a phone illegally?

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:01 | 6830008 luckylogger
luckylogger's picture

Been searching for one that I could buy for 5k off.....................

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 09:29 | 6831430 RushRoolz
RushRoolz's picture

In all seriousness, let me know what you find. I'd love to pick up a TDI for dirt cheap due to all this "malfeasance". The salesman at the local dealer here brushed it all off saying "a couple guys fudging a couple numbers - happens all the time in the auto industry".

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:15 | 6830046 22winmag
22winmag's picture

Auto emissions are a fart in a windstorm.

 

If the government was remotely serious about curbing pollution they'd curb China.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:29 | 6830082 ChanceIs
ChanceIs's picture

>>>Auto emissions are a fart in a windstorm.<<<

Yes.  For sure.  Go read about how much NOX lightning creates every year and CO2 and SO2 coming out of volcanoes.

 

Edit - saved you the trouble.  Per Wiki:

Natural sources

Nitric oxide is produced during thunderstorms due to the extreme heat of lightning,[5] and is caused by the splitting of nitrogen molecules. This can result in the production of acid rain, if nitric oxide forms compounds with the water molecules in precipitation.

Scientists Ott et al[6] estimated that each flash of lightning on average in the several mid-latitude and subtropical thunderstorms studied turned 7 kilograms (15.4 pounds) of nitrogen into chemically reactive NOx. Ott stated, “In other words, you could drive a new car across the United States more than 50 times and still produce less than half as much NOx as an average lightning flash.”

With 1.4 billion lightning flashes per year, multiplied by 7 kilograms per lightning strike, they estimated the total amount of NOx produced by lightning per year is 8.6 terragrams, or 8.6 million metric tons.

Other scientists have recently discovered that cosmic ray and solar flares significantly influence the number of lightning strikes occurring on Earth. Therefore space weather is the major driving force of atmospheric NOx, not human activities.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 07:21 | 6830896 Seer
Seer's picture

It should curb itself!  The US military is the largest consumer of fossil fuels of any entity on the planet: quite the fucking irony that it's battling fossil fuel wars by consuming MOAR fossil fuels.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:26 | 6830086 HenryHall
HenryHall's picture

Evidently the VW group have still not got the message that they are unwelcome to do business in North America.

But they will.

Too late for payola, should have got it right first time around.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:32 | 6830110 Reichstag Fire Dept.
Reichstag Fire Dept.'s picture

VW should just sell a modification chip over the counter that doesn't void the warranty. 

North American diesel pickup trucks have this option but are 3rd party and voids warranty...however, everyone just swaps chip back before they go for service. It's been working.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:53 | 6830168 gregga777
gregga777's picture

It does not work when either dealer or manufacturer technicians discover evidence of the modification(s) is retained in the vehicle's memory devices. They void the engine and power train warranty.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:46 | 6830153 conscious being
conscious being's picture

Superior German diesel technology is being supressed.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 01:38 | 6830374 VWAndy
VWAndy's picture

I would be stunned if they were not sandbagging. I mean come on they are German and we are talking diesel here.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 23:47 | 6830157 gregga777
gregga777's picture

It doesn't look like that, "…the diesel software defeat devices was an isolated case, carried out by a few rogue engineers, not Volkswagen Group Corporate policy…" is working out in the long run, now does it? I have maintained from the outset that this HAD to have been Volkswagen Group Corporate Policy, driven and implemented by Volkswagen Group Corporate Executives from CEO on down. They may have even had the hubris to leave a paper or electronic trail, though I'm sure that the German State is doing all that it can to help the Volkswagen Group erase it. The new Volkswagen CEO may eventually be implicated as well.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 01:28 | 6830357 HenryHall
HenryHall's picture

Certainly. And they are all doing it. Just that GM etc is better at concealing it and has made huge donations to both main political parties.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 08:25 | 6831106 Seer
Seer's picture

In GM's case they're using DPF/DEF.  It's an issue of economics.  GM's "profits" to shareholders, which is really what it all comes down to, is subsidized via "illegal" subsidies from the government.   BMW and MB are also using DPF/DEF (I know that BMW is using both SCR and DPF/DEF, but don't know about MB); their customers directly subsidize their shareholders (and probably do so via tax write-offs).

So, in reality, yes, everyone is managing to tip-toe around all of this  stuff: everyone has shit stuck to their shoes.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 00:14 | 6830215 Lookout Mountain
Lookout Mountain's picture

And DON'T let VW fix the problem.  All you'll get in return is a vehicle that is now producing less non-important emission and less performance. And if you are just totally put out by the whole mess and feel burned, disheartened, and desparate, I could use a slightly used VW diesel at a price too good to pass on.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 00:44 | 6830279 TalkToLind
TalkToLind's picture

It's time to bring my new TDI Normalization Chip to market. This chip will return 50 m.p.g. performance back for the poor saps who accidentally get their TDI's "fixed" by the dealer. I just need to invent it first.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 08:33 | 6831126 Seer
Seer's picture

Tuners can deal with lots of things.  In older diesels (pre-2007 emissions standards) there are a ton of tuners out there for MANY diesels (damn near every truck in my area is tweaked).  Newer diesels, however, don't lend themselves to outright emissions defeat.

As a general rule, for NA anyway, do NOT take your VW diesel to a dealer (unless you KNOW that they have a competent mechanic that'll be working on it).  Just not that many VW diesels in NA (contrary to what all this press might otherwise suggest), in which case a lot of dealerships just don't see a lot of action with them so their mechanics aren't well-versed.  And even non-diesels I'd be concerned: I've seen some non-diesel-specific work done on my car that is an absolute WTF(?)!

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 00:21 | 6830226 Sauerkraut-Opinion
Sauerkraut-Opinion's picture

...Volkswagen also implies that it takes just 10 Euro to fit most of the software-motors subsequently. 

 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 00:33 | 6830250 TalkToLind
TalkToLind's picture

Comrades! You want diesel vehicles? Then GM's Chevy Cruze diesel is what you'll get! That's right bitchez, the Chevy Cruze diesel is guaranteed (wink wink, nudge nudge) to always pass EPA emissions testing. Now shut up and buy some GM stock today, this news is bullish.

 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 00:32 | 6830257 mastersnark
mastersnark's picture

Remember when shady auto manufacturing practices involved cars bursting into flame, and not "understating CO2 emissions." This whole world has gone wussy.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 01:41 | 6830381 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Bring back the ford pinto, firestone 500 tyres, pontiac fiero, triumph tr7, the list goes on. 

How about a nearing 8 years of Obama product reject. He sure put on a smile sitting in the Chevy Volt. 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 00:51 | 6830285 ihatebarkingdogs
ihatebarkingdogs's picture

Remember the 'burn the shorts' deal Porsche pulled off with VW stock by locking up in options 50% more shares than were available to cover short positions? Some positions were badly burned. VW was for awhile the highest valued company in the World based on market capitalization. Porsche made more money in a week on the play than they did selling cars ever. Now someone wants their money back.

I think it's a shame. The VW TDI's are a wonderful engine, and their owners love them. That an un elected, unaccountable, out of control entity such as the EPA can wreak such havoc is sad. This used to be a free market. Not even close, any longer.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 01:25 | 6830351 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Honestly, good job Audi and others to circumvent the bullshit climate change accord. Use your data to show the effects on how on CO2 was managed by inconveniently hoodwinking the drastic reduction of Carbon dioxide. Wish I could attend the next emergency session meeting. The faces of these fraudsters will be conjointly placed up there asshole. Get some good pictures. Remember this?  

Copenhagen Climate Change Conference - December 2009 - unfccc

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 01:43 | 6830385 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

German cars in Greece have the lowest emissions of all the cars in the world. I guess that is what happens when they are not being driven.

More to the point, how can the Germans have the audacity to ask for the Greeks to pull their socks up when they themselves can do such blatantly shonky things?

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 01:52 | 6830398 Joe A
Joe A's picture

German carmakers one of the biggest lobbyists in the EU:

http://corporateeurope.org/power-lobbies/2015/09/power-car-industry-lobb...

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 02:17 | 6830427 dogismycopilot
dogismycopilot's picture

VW, Porsche and Audi: The first coporate victims to fall victim to Climate Control Jihad. Al Gore just 'happened' to be in Paris. No way Jose. This is the Al Gore Global Climate Change Jihad in full Shock and Allah.

 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 02:30 | 6830436 KashNCarry
KashNCarry's picture

Deutsche Bank...Krooks!

VW et al.....Krooks!

Schultze!! 'I see nothing...nothing...'

BTW, pretty soon the only markets VW will corner are the same ones the Abe crooks are cornering with all those Toyota's clearanced for sale to the Islamic State during BOJ's Easing...

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 02:29 | 6830444 DaBard51
DaBard51's picture

ChanceIs, your math is okay but your conclusion is not.

The US EPA says the biggest producer of NOx is agricultural.  True.
Cars are 5%.  In the USA.  True.
The EU EPA says the biggest producer of NOx is industrial.  True.
Cars are 30%.  In Europe.  True.

But like the guy whose feet were in ice and his head was in an oven, on average he was fine, but locally... well...

The good news is that however it's produced, NOx stays in the air only a few days.

The bad news is, humans have to breathe a few thousand times a day, so holding one's breath is not an option.

NOx is heavier than air, so it tends to hang around ground level, where most people are.

Nitrous oxides combine with water vapor to form nitric acid, which eats stuff.
Sunlight breaks NOx down into regular N2, regular O2, and some O3 - ozone.
Ozone is nasty stuff.  Tends to kill biological stuff, and rot lungs.

Moving cars on the highway, .25 gram/km NOx at 100 km/h, aren't the problem. 

A quarter million cars stuck in traffic, with the A/C on and engine running, each producing many grams of NOx per kilometer, 'cause they're not moving (much)... that's a problem.  That's why LA smog is so memorable.  So is smog in Phoenix, Chicago, NY, Atlanta, Dallas, London, Paris, Berlin, Beijing...

I like my breathing air as uncolored and tasteless as possible.  Well away from any farts in the wind.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 08:52 | 6831207 Seer
Seer's picture

Thanks for providing some actual facts to this discussion!

As noted, diesel car in NA are a very slight fraction of the total vehicles.  And, the real  issue is city driving; and, frankly, diesels really aren't the best for such driving.  In my area vehicles in rural locations aren't subjected to emissions testing.  This makes good sense.

Funny, Elon Musk, not someone I would normally wish to quote, mentioned that it was actually the gasoline engines  that were the problem and not the diesels.  It was stated as being due to sheer numbers.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 03:44 | 6830527 dumdum
dumdum's picture

 

 

This is why, I will not and never have bought a European car.

Give me a Nissan GTR any day.

What's the saying?

Eurotrash! 

Never been a truer saying.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 04:16 | 6830555 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 The GTR is a very nice and under appreciated tool.

 If Nissan would just take  that blown  V-6, consider an aluminum small block V-8 and lower the center of gravity, the GTR would be an absolute supercar.

 It's got great underpinnings, like the Skyline series. It's a nice car but just needs some refinement and a lower cowl.[lower center of gravity]

 The body panels need to be refreshed, and fit & finish isn't on par with some other brands.

 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 06:15 | 6830750 Tinky
Tinky's picture

Back in the early '90s I had a Nissan Sentra SE-R, and it was an outstanding car! 140 horsepower and 132 ft·lbf (179 N·m) of torque, 24 horsepower (18 kW) more than the regular 16-valve engine Sentra, stiffer springs, damping, a limited slip differential.

Bags of fun, and very reliable – until I was rear-ended by a truck while stopped at a stop light.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 09:02 | 6831263 Seer
Seer's picture

Tool for what?

Unless you're outside the city you're going to be stuck in traffic with an under-utilized tool.  And, even if out on the highways/freeways there's a fair chance of also being clogged up.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 05:34 | 6830641 ihatebarkingdogs
ihatebarkingdogs's picture

I like Cosmos's avatar. I also like Tarabel's avatar. They're similar, but different.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 07:10 | 6830900 Spiritof42
Spiritof42's picture

They put their customers first. That'a why I'm glad I own an Audi.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 08:08 | 6831022 Sauerkraut-Opinion
Sauerkraut-Opinion's picture

Now "the same" with Renault (France) - but much, much worse: 

http://www.focus.de/auto/news/abgas-skandal/neuer-abgas-skandal-abgaswer...

Title: "Neuer Abgas-Skandal. Abgaswerte wie aus den 80er Jahren - Umweltschützer klagen Renault an".  

Translation: "New scandal about exhaust values: Levels compareable to the 80th - Environmentaists claim Renault"

On behalf of the "Deutsche Umwelthilfe (DUH) the exhaust testing unit of the technical college in Bern (Swiss) found massiv elevated exhaust values of nitrogen oxides when testing an Renault Espace 1,6 dCi (Diesel engine). The model is approved according the strictest environmental standards in Europe (6b). Cars passed the test only when tests were announced - time enough for a "special preparation" of the tested vehicle. 

But the real results emerged as a desaster - levels of nitrogen oxides comparable to the 80th - up to 25 times higher then permitted. No comparison to Volkswagen. 

As I told here before those problems are the results of massive lobbying work in the European Union. The creation of opportunities to manipulate testing cars were constituent part of the agreements between political leaders of car industrie nations - in full intention and knowledge. This circumstance was well-known for many years and published several times before - each one knew what that meant - but without consequences until now. 

The car industry produced Diesel engines within this broad framework which was indirectly tolerated politically because the designed statutes covered nothing else than opening the door to manipulation. 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 09:07 | 6831286 Seer
Seer's picture

You see, it's the EPA's fault! (or, like the dumb-ass party pussies, Obama's [for whatever singular pol's] fault!)

Human hubris.  It's really like  crying over spilled milk, on the Titanic... (shareholders are fighting to maintain profit margins- as growth continues to decline we'll only see more and more "scandals")

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 08:23 | 6831100 Jack Daniels Esq
Jack Daniels Esq's picture

Barry was too busy closing US coal mines to catch the VW kludge

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 09:22 | 6831370 RushRoolz
RushRoolz's picture

VW spews CO2

CO2 leads to global warming

Global warming leads to terrorism

VW = Terrorists

Q.E.D.

 

So any good commie will be all for the VW takedown, except that people will lose their jobs and everyone knows that jobless people become terrorists so that's a bit of a quandry...

 

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 10:32 | 6831790 Racer
Racer's picture

Earlier today VW was the only stawk that was up in the DAX... and it was up over 4% as well!

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