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17 Seconds That Changed The World - Leaked Letter Exposes Turkey's Hair-Trigger Reality

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Needless to say, Moscow and Ankara are at odds over precisely what happened on Tuesday when a Russian Su-24 was shot down near the Syrian border. 

The two pilots ejected and attempted to parachute to safety but Turkmen FSA-allied Alwiya al-Ashar militiamen shot at them as they fell before posting a video purporting to show rebel soldiers celebrating over one of the bodies. It only got worse from there when the FSA's 1st Coastal Brigade used a US-made TOW to destroy a Russian search and rescue helicopter. 

Clearly, this was a marked escalation and indeed it was the first time a NATO member had engaged a Russian or Soviet warplane in more than 60 years.

The Kremlin was not happy as Vladimir Putin - who was meeting with King Abdullah in Jordan - proceeded to brand Erdogan a “backstabber” and an ISIS supporter. Sergei Lavrov subsequently canceled a planned trip to Turkey.

At issue now, is whether the Russian fighter jet did indeed, as Turkey claims, venture into Turkish airspace or whether the Turks actually engaged Moscow’s warplane in the skies over Syria. 

Here's Russia's version of the story, presented via a video released by the Defense Ministry:

And here's Turkey's account:

 

Finally, here's The New York Times with a compare and constrast visual:

In the wake of an emergency NATO meeting this afternoon, new information has come to light. First, there’s Ankara’s letter to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and the 15 members of the UN Security Council. Here it is: 

The highlighted passage reads: “Disregarding these warnings, both planes, at an altitude of 19,000 feet, violated Turkish national airspace to a depth of 1.36 miles and 1.15 miles in length for 17 seconds from 9:24:05 local time."

So, as RT notes, even if we buy Turkey's story (i.e. if we accept that Russia actually did violate Turkish airspace), then it would appear that Ankara has something of an itchy trigger finger. That is, Turkey was apparently willing to risk sparking a wider conflict between NATO and Russia over a 17 second incursion.

But something doesn't sound right.  

In other words, as Sputnik put it earlier this evening, "according to those numbers, the Su-24 would have had to be flying at stall speed."

The Su-24's max speed is 1,320 km/hour.

So if we assume the Su-24 was actually going much faster, was 17 seconds more like 5 seconds? Or perhaps even less? 

It's important not to forget the context here. Ankara is fiercly anti-Assad and in addition to being generally displeased with Russia's efforts to support the regime, just four days ago, Turkey summoned Russian ambassador Andrey Karlov over the alleged bombing of Turkish villages near the border. "Turkey has asked Russia to 'immediately end its operation,'" AFP reported, adding that "Ankara warned bombing villages populated by the Turkmen minority in Syria could lead to 'serious consequences.'"

Of course Russia wasn't just bombing Turkish civilians for the sheer hell of it. It's likely Moscow was targeting the very same FSA-affiliated Alwiya al-Ashar militiamen who shot and killed the parachuting Russian pilot earlier today. 

In short, it looks like Ankara saw an opportunity to shoot down a Russian jet in retaliation for strikes on Turkish rebel fighters who are operating alongside anti-Assad forces. Erdogan is essentially gambling that Russia will not retailiate militarily against Turkey because doing so would open the door for a direct confrontation with NATO. 

Time will tell whether that gamble pays off or whether Moscow decides that the next time a Turkish F-16 gets "lost" over Latakia, a little payback is in order.

 

 

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Wed, 11/25/2015 - 10:07 | 6837524 J Jason Djfmam
J Jason Djfmam's picture

That short of time period would force Turkey to lauch the missile before the Rusky jet entered their airspace.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 01:01 | 6836608 straightershooter
straightershooter's picture

time to deploy s-400 and  announce a no-fly zone by Putin.....

well..........

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 01:09 | 6836629 Moccasin
Moccasin's picture

lmao, Wikileaks asking MSM journalists to do basic math... that's funny shit.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 01:10 | 6836630 falconflight
falconflight's picture

So the Turkish government sent six letters to the UN Security Council President complaining of Russian violations of Turkish airspace?  Case closed

Well, then the only question is why the Russian pilot was caught apparently so completely unaware that his aircraft was target radar locked? Perhaps Russian arrogance that the Turks had been badgered into accepting said Russian territorial incursions?

Putin will do nothing militarily, because he now knows that the intimidation tactic can work for only so long.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 01:28 | 6836666 theblackknight
theblackknight's picture

If it was an Aim -9 it would be an IR seaker not radar driven. SU24 is an older airframe and may not have all the latest detection systems..

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 02:15 | 6836758 monk27
monk27's picture

Su24 is a bomber, not a fighter (Wiki is your friend). It also didn't expect to be attacked. It WAS backstabbing, and now the Turks will have to live with it...

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 01:14 | 6836635 Gregor Samsa
Gregor Samsa's picture

This whole thing is such a sad joke. If only the general population wasn't so fucking dumb they could never get away with it...

Look at Syria, particularly the portions of it controlled by ISIS. What's there? Mostly scorched fucking desert and towns and cities in ruins. I don't see any lush fucking fields of green with any fucking FOOD there. These sick freaks would have starved to death years ago, and ran out of ammo months ago, and be completely isolated and contained if they WERE NOT BEING SUPPLIED by someone. 

That someone is Turkey. Do we do anything about that? Nah...

Where do you think all these freaks who want to join ISIS go? They buy one way plane ticket to TURKEY and then walk across the border. Do we do anything about that? Nah...

No, instead we blow up the same empty mud hut in the desert for the 50th fucking time in 50 days to show the idiots we are "bombing" ISIS to death.

If we really wanted to stop ISIS, we should be bombing TURKEY.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 01:15 | 6836641 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

From the looks of it Russia will retaliate if Turkey does it again.

They are setting up air-offense systems . . .  so if their planes are pursued they will pretty much fire back.

I dont get why they dont just escort their planes.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 01:28 | 6836671 Proofreder
Proofreder's picture

Dogfights

Cameras UP

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 01:34 | 6836689 I Write Code
I Write Code's picture

If the two SU-24s were flying together (unknown if true but common pattern), then exactly how did just one get fired upon?  Did one fly away separately, or was it an F-16 pilot screwup?

The two plane report makes it even stranger.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 02:01 | 6836694 o r c k
o r c k's picture

Russia showing sattelite proof that Russia planes never entered Turkey. Turkish plane actually entered Syria. One parachuting pilot killed by ground fire. One chopper rescue pilot killed by ground fire after emergency landing from small arms fire damage. Multiple war crimes committed.  "NATO lied about "moderate rebels" in W. part of Syria. Russia says most radical rebel groups in area near Russian base. Base security being bolstered after finding this out.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 02:39 | 6836787 Blankone
Blankone's picture

Why did Putin the master chess player not plan for this?  Why did Putin not realize there were radicals close to his bases in Syria?  (dumb)

Why were there no air to air fighter jets protecting these air to ground bombers?

Do the systems to be added at the bases and on the ship have the ability to stop a repeat?  Can they really knock down or disable an opposing jet that far away in mere seconds when it flys suddenly flys into Syria and attacks?

Who is going to make Turkey pay for the war crimes?  When?

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 06:20 | 6837037 css1971
css1971's picture

"Why did Putin the master chess player not plan for this?"

He did. He now installs S300 across northern Syria. It'll be there in hours with the Moskva.

This creates an effective no fly zone in the west and North Syria.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 06:27 | 6837042 L_Estasi_dell_Oro
L_Estasi_dell_Oro's picture

Not just S-300, but also S-400:

 

Russia to deploy S-400 defense missile system to Khmeimim airbase in Syria - defense minister

https://www.rt.com/news/323379-s400-russia-syria-airbase/

 

From now on, every single Turkish plane that inches over the Syrian border will have no chance.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 05:05 | 6836968 wizteknet
wizteknet's picture

Rescue helicopter was blown up with a Tow missile I don't call that small arms fire. I know I repaired them..

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 11:35 | 6838001 corsair
corsair's picture

Rescue helicopter was downed by small arms fire.

Subsequently, the rebels brought the TOW and blew up the abandoned chopper on the ground.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 01:42 | 6836701 boeing747
boeing747's picture

F16 may have a machine gun, why not fire warning shoots?

 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 04:53 | 6836955 I Write Code
I Write Code's picture

That doesn't come close to working - but it's actually not a bad question, why didn't Turkist F-16's simply fly adjacent to Russian plane to escort it away.  Instead they probably fired that missile from at least ten miles away.

In reality, Russian plane almost certainly knew (a) F-16s were there, (b) F-16's had locked on, and (c) missile was fired.  Three different chances to turn away, even without 10 radioed warnings.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 07:10 | 6837081 Max Steel
Max Steel's picture

Here is   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccENeRldkW4 

The F16 was loitering waiting for the chance to pounce. No way was this anything innocent and baloney about "Turkey defending its air space" is retard-spew.


Most importantly they are not at war with each other so Turkish plane could have escorted them out but NOPE.

I

Turkey's airspace was violated 114 times in one year by Greek, Israeli, and Italian aircraft  They somehow avoided shooting any down. "Air space violations are incidents that happen almost every day, and are resolved in a matter of minutes within international law," the Turkish General Staff said in a statement. Six airplanes violated Turkish airspace last week alone, the General Staff said, of which none were shot down and left Turkey's airspace after they were warned by Turkish personnel.
A violation of one to two kilometers is accepted as "natural" given the speed of aircraft, the statement said. This year's violations of Turkish airspace lasted between 20 seconds and nine minutes, which showed "airspace violations can be resolved by warning and interceptions," the statement said."

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 01:42 | 6836702 FIAT CON
FIAT CON's picture

The US wants to overthrow Assad, that is all there is to know. They will achieve this, little by little with the help of ISis here and there, Turkey here and there and the FSA here and there, anything to make it look like their hands are clean. Meanwhile the Murican people are kept clueless to what their .gov is up to for the what 48 time in as many years...Overthrowing .gov's.

The question remains does Russia, China and Iran want to go to war with the US and Nato? Or will they just slowly crash the US$ instead?

 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 07:03 | 6837071 messystateofaffairs
messystateofaffairs's picture

I vote for holding them at bay, letting them make themselves look incurably stupid even to the most mindless propaganda eating sheeple, wait for them to crash their funny munny ponzi and weaken their economies, and build their own Jew free economies in the meantime. Obviously a better plan than going nuclear, which if it happens, all the world will suffer and perhaps die, hopefully Israel first, the Satanic catalyst of all humanities failings.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 01:54 | 6836715 Jorgen
Jorgen's picture

"Moscow and Ankara are at odds over precisely what happened on Tuesday when a Russian Su-24 was shot down near the Syrian border."

Subliminal propaganda? The correct statement should be: when a Russian Su-24 was shot down near the Turkish border.

Related:

 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 02:06 | 6836739 NoWayJose
NoWayJose's picture

If it takes just 17 seconds to cross this little finger of land, just 'where' were the Turkish F-16s patrolling? That would mean a pretty tight little circle - unless, of course, THEY violated Syrian airspace?

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 04:58 | 6836960 squid
squid's picture

"That would mean a pretty tight little circle - unless, of course, THEY violated Syrian airspace?"

 

it looked to me from the Russian version of things that they did violate turkish airspace.

 

We shall see.

 

Squid

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 02:11 | 6836748 idontcare
idontcare's picture

99% of the population of Turkey is Muslim and should this whole conflict escalate to a war between "the ideologies", Turkey will stand with its Muslim brothers and against the west regardless of its membership in the dinosaur known as NATO.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 02:17 | 6836761 J Mahoney
J Mahoney's picture

Hope my crystal ball is sending bad vibes but the next country to use the "sovereign air space" excuse for a shoot down is Syria--they can choose one of a number of country's planes to go after---lets see, who all is flying over their airspace? USA, Britain, France---then, we will have full blown escalation.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 02:25 | 6836767 Spetzco
Spetzco's picture

Dear Vlad, as they say in "Pulp Fiction"....:   "go medieval on their asses".    Sincerely, the rest of the world that is sick of any and all Muzzies, particularly ones who pretent to be democratic.  

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 10:11 | 6837547 J Jason Djfmam
J Jason Djfmam's picture

Time for the hard pipe hittin brothas.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 02:47 | 6836799 PADRAEG
PADRAEG's picture

Putin is a liar, always & everywhere, the entire world knows he lies. He tried to hide the fact that his missile shot down a PASSENGER plane over Ukraine. 

He is also very stupid to continue to violate Turkey's airspace. Oh, and the RT/Sputnik version of events... YOU MUST BE JOKING!

Putin has destroyed Russia's future for decades, it may never recover before breaking apart. Au voir, xyilo!

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 04:07 | 6836899 dogismycopilot
dogismycopilot's picture

Damned dirty Turk you are. How is the Turkish lira doing right now?

When this is over, every Turkish woman will be a 10 Euro whore. 

ECLECTIC BKLYN FINANCIAL ANALYST, CPA

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 04:47 | 6836946 Pliskin
Pliskin's picture

Whoa there tiger...10 Euro is alot to be paying for some hairy, sweaty, Muzzie Turk-woman.

Unless your thinking 'Hyperinflation' within the eurozone...in which case 'carry on solidier.'

 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 19:15 | 6840337 mkkby
mkkby's picture

Yeah, I wouldn't pay 10 euro cents for a smelly, dirty, aids infested muzzie woman.  I can almost understand why the men resort to fucking goats and camels.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 04:56 | 6836959 squid
squid's picture

School holidays in the states?

 

 

Squid

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 06:50 | 6837062 messystateofaffairs
messystateofaffairs's picture

I am a part of the world, I am not Russian, I have observed Putin's actions and I think that he us probably the finest statesman I have observed in my adult life.

He has had to deal with a gaggle of psychopathic world puppets, animated and directed by a psychopathic sect that satan has convinced are special, and he has done so with skill, dignity and restraint. Russia, and the rest of humanity who wish to seek freedom and peace, are fortunate to have lucked out on such a leader.

Erdogan, not so at all. You, pfft, I hope you are a troll writing shit to collect your pittance, otherwise you are just incurably stupid.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 02:48 | 6836801 WTFUD
WTFUD's picture

Syria is a Sovereign State and Russia and Iran have been extended legal authorisation to enter their airspace; possibly China.

Putin & Assad must now play HARDBALL and state that any unauthorised entry into its airspace will be considered an Act of War and the consequences are . . . .

It really is that Simple.

Anything less is a Sign of Weakness. The World is watching.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 02:59 | 6836815 HotelBread
HotelBread's picture

All of a sudden I'm not so worried about my retirement.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 03:20 | 6836825 WTFUD
WTFUD's picture

5 Cruise Missiles into TurkMenaceStanMan should do the trick. What's that? Ok 10 if it'll make y'all feel better.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 03:13 | 6836832 Gavrikon
Gavrikon's picture

Erdogan should be vaporized.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 08:07 | 6837153 Wahooo
Wahooo's picture

Wait for the next soccer game and take out the entire lot of them.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 03:27 | 6836857 Boing_Snap
Boing_Snap's picture

The SU24 has a bad record for safe ejections during incidents, so one would be prudent to wait for autopsy results to see if the rebels managed to kill the airmen as they parachuted.

Also interesting to see that a similar situation occured on the border with Israel in Sept. 2014, the Israelis claim the Russians had strayed 1km into their airspace and they shot the SU24 down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDLTvv_YKpA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-24

 

 

 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 07:02 | 6837070 Max Steel
Max Steel's picture

lol yup israeli claiming and Russia claimed they nuked Simona Nuclear plant 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 03:33 | 6836862 luckylogger
luckylogger's picture

Pootin suks....

End of story!

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 03:34 | 6836864 Bazza McKenzie
Bazza McKenzie's picture

Look for Russia to totally wipe out the rebels in that area and do it with plenty of fighter cover and cruise missile support so that if Turkey tries to interfere any military assets they involve will disappear.

Erdogan will look as incompetent as Obama then.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 03:35 | 6836865 vheissu
vheissu's picture

about the math, does it matter 5 seconds or 17 ? violation is violation, end of story. what do you want them to do, wait until fighter jets right into the middle of the country before shooting them ?

Turkey has all the rights to shoot that SU-24 down, and now the warnings that have been made in english and russian has been leaked, there is no excuse for russia to continue this mind game.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 08:06 | 6837151 Wahooo
Wahooo's picture

You're not following this very closely, are you? Airspace isn't a wall, it's a sieve that gets penetrated all the time, every day.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 09:22 | 6837334 Spiritof42
Spiritof42's picture

If you believe that simplistic argument, you're a complete moron.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 03:43 | 6836869 vheissu
vheissu's picture

Violate another countries airspace with a bomber jet plane, 1000 miles away from your home country, when they shoot you down complain about stabbing in the back. and average joe believes this, welcome to the new world, where logic no longer matters but only emotional reactions and wierd perceptions.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 03:51 | 6836880 WTFUD
WTFUD's picture

So numbnuts you're not too concerned about erDOGan buying up DAESH stolen OIL or providing sanctuary for terrorists.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 05:21 | 6836989 vheissu
vheissu's picture

ok ZH is russian site i guess. From our side, syrian oil either be sold by USA thugs or russian thugs, what is the difference? You are clueless about whats going on. If there was a soveiregn syrian state there, without war and tension, it would most benefit turkey, because ethnically and culturally syrian people very close to turks. What really going on is, USSA coming 15000 miles, France and russia coming 1000 miles from their hometowns, start a war, creating terror, manipulating oil and gas resources and somehow Turkey is teh agressor ? Keep dreaming. Media is so wafully deceptive, even ZH is no different than cnn or reuters. all lies.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 06:23 | 6837040 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Perhaps you should read up on Assad's Four Seas Strategy.  Turkey is the biggest loser under that scenario.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 06:33 | 6837046 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

+1, but I saw China as the biggest pusher for that strategy and Russia, the US and the Gulf States as the biggest "losers" under that scenario

it's the same with pipelines. one is fine for Russia, the other... isn't. all depending from where it ends

too many participants, too many variables in an equation that is treated as having only one or two outcomes

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 09:22 | 6837080 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Perhaps nominally, but I think Turkey had the most, relatively, to lose.  Petroleum is somewhat fungible, and the current glut notwithstanding, a buyer generally be can found near the current market price.  The Turks, however, are traders and if a pipeline doesn't flow through Turkey, their cut is eliminated.  

One thing I keep meaning to look into, before all my mentors and sources kick the bucket... and I can no longer kick the can, is what was the actual level of Turkish involvement in the various disturbances in the Caucasus after the collapse of the Soviet Union.  People write about Saudi Arabia's ideological ties, but in the rush to extract Caspian energy for the west, some of those projects took suspicious turns for the strategic benefit of Ankara.    

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 07:08 | 6837075 Max Steel
Max Steel's picture

Here is   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccENeRldkW4 

The F16 was loitering waiting for the chance to pounce. No way was this anything innocent and baloney about "Turkey defending its air space" is retard-spew.


Most importantly they are not at war with each other so Turkish plane could have escorted them out but NOPE.



Turkey's airspace was violated 114 times in one year by Greek, Israeli, and Italian aircraft  They somehow avoided shooting any down. "Air space violations are incidents that happen almost every day, and are resolved in a matter of minutes within international law," the Turkish General Staff said in a statement. Six airplanes violated Turkish airspace last week alone, the General Staff said, of which none were shot down and left Turkey's airspace after they were warned by Turkish personnel.
A violation of one to two kilometers is accepted as "natural" given the speed of aircraft, the statement said. This year's violations of Turkish airspace lasted between 20 seconds and nine minutes, which showed "airspace violations can be resolved by warning and interceptions," the statement said."

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 08:01 | 6837147 vheissu
vheissu's picture

Tell me how one can escort a bomber jet plane that doesnt respond any warning in english or russian. you are out of your mind. Greeks and Turks are different story, both NATO member + they eventually respond the warnings. This is different, this is clrearly a provoking action. And it does not make any difference if SU-24 violated turkish air space or not. Why the hell there is a russian bomber airplane 5 km to turkish border ? Just give me 1 logical reason. This is unacceptable, what turkey offered is no fly zone, in order to prevent this kind of interactions, russia didnt accept it ok now what? Every bomber aircraft coming close will be shut down by turkish army. Every person from any country has right to live peacefully, keep lieing to yourselves russia is there to bring peace. Bringing peace does not econnomically viable, invading petrol rich countries are. So as long as it is not a domestic syrain aircraft, i have no problem those war toys getting destroyed, american russian or french doesnt matter, just go back to your homes.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 08:21 | 6837195 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Congratulations you win the award the for dumbest post of the day (and it's only 1pm here) - "it does not make any difference if SU-24 violated turkish air space or not."


Wed, 11/25/2015 - 09:33 | 6837383 vheissu
vheissu's picture

I am sure you dont have any information about aviation, do you ? su-24 takes 22 mins after violation to reach capitol of turkey, ankara. do you it is logical to take the sucker punch. you cannot wait a non-communicating bomber plane to fuck around your border. Question why didnt russian pilots respond to turkish airbase ? Records have been leaked, they warned pilots in english and in russian for several times, if they are not a threat, if this is a casual route, just inform the airbase and get back, why didnt they do this?

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 10:21 | 6837549 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

The distance to Ankara is utterly irrelevant to what I posted, and your "argument" ignores the rest of Turkish air defenses (in addition to international law).  Quite simply - along the shared border between sovereign States - Syrian airspace is the air above Syrian sovereign territory, and Turkish airspace is the air above Turkish sovereign territory.  You do know what launching a missile into the sovereign territory of another country is called?  An act of war.

 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 10:27 | 6837619 KUDIN
KUDIN's picture

Why the hell there is a russian bomber airplane 5 km to turkish border ? Just give me 1 logical reason.

Last  I heard , Russian were there because Syrian had invited them . 

As for the the last sentence of your comment , yes , you are absolutely right - NO ONE should be there but the Sovereign Syrians , NO ONE should help EITHER side .  

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 09:06 | 6837292 Spiritof42
Spiritof42's picture

Turkey is teh agressor ?

No not Turkey the aggressor. Turkey is a pawn of the aggressor.

Media is so wafully deceptive, even ZH is no different than cnn or reuters. all lies.

Zerohedge another zionist liar? Damn! Why didn't I see that?

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 09:16 | 6837326 vheissu
vheissu's picture

Because you cant ? According to ZH, turkish elections are rigged, erdo?an is dictator bla bla bla. In fact, those are incredble lies. It is like saying putin is a black man. I am not even joking, ZH's articles about turkey is that absurd.

I didnt say anything about zionism or anything else, but ZH is intentionally demonizing Turkey and apperantly did a great job. I can prove opposite of every single lie that ZH tells about turkey.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 10:35 | 6837650 fel.temp.reparatio
fel.temp.reparatio's picture

Bilal? Is that you? heh

AKP troll... amk :-D

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 11:59 | 6837946 Spiritof42
Spiritof42's picture

I didnt say anything about zionism or anything else,

No you didn't. But you clumped ZH with the zionist press.

ZH is intentionally demonizing Turkey and apperantly did a great job. I can prove opposite of every single lie that ZH tells about turkey.

I'm sure you think you can. But the turkish side of the attack is not credible or even reasonable.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 03:47 | 6836872 Bazza McKenzie
Bazza McKenzie's picture

Presumably the Turks will be quite accepting of having their jets shot down for breaching Greek airspace, as in "Three Turkish Air Force aircraft breached Greek air space a total of 31 times on Monday, military authorities in Athens said." and Obama will endorse the right of the Greeks to do so.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 04:18 | 6836913 are we there yet
are we there yet's picture

It is hard to find a good guy in the Middle East. Including us. You can't fix crazy and evil.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 04:30 | 6836926 Fireman
Fireman's picture

"Including us."

 

Have you been dead for some time? Or is that sarcasm?

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 04:34 | 6836932 ross81
ross81's picture

helluva lot easier said than done but the Russians/Iranians/Syrians really need to seal that border otherwise it's just an open NATO/Saudi Jihadist pipeline.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 04:48 | 6836948 cheech_wizard
cheech_wizard's picture

Nuclear landmines!

Standard Disclaimer: I'm really rooting for the scorched earth policy to make a comeback. You really don't hear a lot from the Carthaginians these days.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 04:42 | 6836943 cheech_wizard
cheech_wizard's picture

On a bright note:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2015/11/25/russia-halts-gas...

Last line in the article is priceless.

Temperatures in Ukraine where most homes rely on piped gas for central heating were below freezing Wednesday morning.

 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 05:50 | 6837014 ross81
ross81's picture

Good news indeed. Just need our resident Latvian now to whinge about the "criminal Putin regime" refusing to give free gas to Ukraine. That'd make my day.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 09:13 | 6837301 HowdyDoody
HowdyDoody's picture

They have also stopped coal supplies in response to Ukrainian Tatar / Pravy Sektor thugs blowing up all the electricity transmission lines leading to Crimea. Crimea will be connected to the Russian mainland by undergound electrical cables by 20 December or so.

Edit: Ukraine National Symbol

http://s56.radikal.ru/i151/1409/d3/e34139ea65ff.jpg

 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 05:28 | 6836993 SmittyinLA
SmittyinLA's picture

Russia won't retaliate against Turkey, they'll target Erdogan and his donors-personally like Israelis, behind the jihad are businessmen with assets and interests-that they're gonna lose shortly.

Financial punishment is coming for "friends of Erdogon"

Putin will make it personal, Russia doesn't do "calm", they do "stoic".

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 22:12 | 6840861 DLux
DLux's picture

Perhaps Erdogan's son (Bilal-in Italy) will get some polonium-210 in his morning Espresso.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 05:31 | 6836996 Deres
Deres's picture

I ma quite sure that this silly move from the turkish aviation will have an effect at the opposite of what they wanted.

Instead of being deterred from bombing rebels near the border, I am quite sure that the russian will bomb them to death in the next days.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 05:43 | 6837009 goldenbuddha454
goldenbuddha454's picture

do you think for a minute Vlad wouldn't give the 'weapons hot' if we flew into his airspace 1.5 miles?

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 07:08 | 6837078 Max Steel
Max Steel's picture

Here is   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccENeRldkW4 

The F16 was loitering waiting for the chance to pounce. No way was this anything innocent and baloney about "Turkey defending its air space" is retard-spew.


Most importantly they are not at war with each other so Turkish plane could have escorted them out but NOPE.



Turkey's airspace was violated 114 times in one year by Greek, Israeli, and Italian aircraft  They somehow avoided shooting any down. "Air space violations are incidents that happen almost every day, and are resolved in a matter of minutes within international law," the Turkish General Staff said in a statement. Six airplanes violated Turkish airspace last week alone, the General Staff said, of which none were shot down and left Turkey's airspace after they were warned by Turkish personnel.
A violation of one to two kilometers is accepted as "natural" given the speed of aircraft, the statement said. This year's violations of Turkish airspace lasted between 20 seconds and nine minutes, which showed "airspace violations can be resolved by warning and interceptions," the statement said."

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 06:05 | 6837023 localizer
localizer's picture

The Turks fucked up so bad on this one that even USSA cannot cover them up... what a disgrace.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 06:12 | 6837026 css1971
css1971's picture

Sampling period. The turkish account of 17 seconds could be related to the sampling period on their monitoring system, but it looks like a large overestimation.

Now, if you look at the Russian realtime tracking, they clipped the border maybe, but didn't enter Turkish airspace :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Cs8jdJKSGo

So it comes down to how accurate are the monitoring systems whether the plane entered Turkish airspace or not. He said, she said.

There's a different question though, even if you take the Turkish explanation. As a NATO member, do you shoot down planes :

1. That has entered your airspace literally for seconds and has clearly exited by the time you shoot it down that part is quite clear.

2. From a country which had an agreement in place ahead of time explicitly to prevent exactly this situation.

No, you don't. Unless you are explicitly and deliberately and cynically attempting to escalate the situation.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 07:43 | 6837123 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

The preponderance of facts as we now have them would indicate in Russia's favor.

At the least, it would have taken more time for the Turks to set up the shot than any time the bomber may have been in their airspace. A needless provocation on Turkey's part. The math is very telling; at the claimed speed, the bomber would indeed be flying too slow. You can look the bomber's specs up on the intertubes.

They seem to indeed be trying to pull NATO in on Article 5.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 07:59 | 6837144 Wahooo
Wahooo's picture

You do as the Kenyan tells you.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 07:08 | 6837077 TheSheepWolf
TheSheepWolf's picture

Just one thing to post:

In the first month of 2014 alone, Turkish aircraft allegedly violated Greek airspace 1,017 times, Gurcan reports

So fuck you Turks!

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 08:26 | 6837200 vheissu
vheissu's picture

Ok kid just calm down. Do you even aware that jet planes using a transponder called IFF. Identification Friend or Foe, no Nato member country can fire a single bullet to another fellow country. IFF wont allow it. So no matter how madly greek or turkish jets, violate airspace there is no threat at all! Because of this comfort, greeks and turks always get into dog fights, knowing that no matter what IFF wont let anything to happen. 

So you can not compare an unarmed aircraft to a bomber russian plane. It is different as day and night.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 12:00 | 6838168 corsair
corsair's picture

So, you were afraid that Russians might bomb Ankara!!! Is that what you are saying?

Also, why don't you comment on that Turkish MOD statement from 2012 that Max Steel keeps on posting?

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 07:08 | 6837079 captain-nemo
captain-nemo's picture

So how is it possible to send 10 warning in just 17 seconds

 

 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 07:58 | 6837142 Wahooo
Wahooo's picture

And if they were in turkish airspace for only 17 seconds why would they be warned 10 times over 5 minutes?

Fuck off turkey!

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 08:20 | 6837193 vheissu
vheissu's picture

warnings doesnt start when u violate the airspace, it starts way before according to you heading and speed. In this case, russian jet heading right in to Hatay ( Turkey ) with a speed of 1200 km/hr. You can see this coming 5 mins before. 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 08:36 | 6837220 Spiritof42
Spiritof42's picture

In context, the real provocation was Russia's cutting off Turkey's oil supply from ISIS.

 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 09:12 | 6837315 vheissu
vheissu's picture

Even If that is true, -which there is no hard evidence that turkey buying oil from ISIS- still there is no excuse to fly over Hatay, naturally turkish army does not let that happen.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 09:46 | 6837438 Spiritof42
Spiritof42's picture

You're trying  to reduce this to purely technical grounds. Humans don't act without motive. Clearly, Russia was no threat to Turkey. But it is a threat to ISIS and its sponsors. 

At this stage, it doesn't matter. This was designed to escalate tensions, and it's working. But not in any way that could possibly benefit Turkey. It was stupid!

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 09:35 | 6837395 KUDIN
KUDIN's picture

Should not there be some kind of a conversation between the both sides ? Something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VHXRYXzEVU

 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 07:33 | 6837106 moratar
moratar's picture

Would you allow some random guy to fuck your daughter or wife for 17seconds before killing him ?

I would kill him before 1st second weird that Tukey allow to be fucked for 17 seconds.

 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 07:57 | 6837140 Wahooo
Wahooo's picture

If he fucked your daughter in front of you the 10 previous times and you did nothing, why would you start now?

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 08:09 | 6837158 nnnnnn
nnnnnn's picture

 

 

fuck you moratar    dont compare your filthy and ugly daughter to international relations

the only thing you can compare turkey to is a donkey     well a donkey you could compare to your daughter too  they look similar

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 08:12 | 6837168 Wild E Coyote
Wild E Coyote's picture

Would you trust your partner with huge business in tourism and gas supplies walk pass your house? 

You would kill him huh?

 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 08:20 | 6837192 jughead
jughead's picture

Mr Erdogan spoke of Turkey's "rage" at the decision to shoot down the F-4 Phantom on 22 June and described Syria as a "clear and present threat".

"A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack," he said. 

whoopsie

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 08:26 | 6837198 Spiritof42
Spiritof42's picture

WTF kind of logic is that! Fucked for 17 seconds? More like touched for 17 seconds.

Even if it was 17 seconds, a response that fast had to be planned in advance at high levels. 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 08:40 | 6837230 moratar
moratar's picture

You break law, you pay the price. Welcome in adult's world.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 08:58 | 6837272 bunnyswanson
bunnyswanson's picture

"Turkey is interested in preserving the Islamic State, former NATO commander in Europe Ret. General Wesley Clark.... "He also hinted that Turkey could be dealing in oil illegally produced and traded by the Islamic State forces"

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151125/1030724153/turkey-isil-support.html#ixzz3sVWWFj3S

 

 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 09:29 | 6837365 Spiritof42
Spiritof42's picture

You break law, you pay the price. Welcome in adult's world.

Do come back and say that after Russia responds in kind. At minimum, it looks like they're going to seal off Turkey's border from the Syrian side.

But we know that Turkey wasn't literally defending its borders, it was defending ISIS. Don't we?

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 09:33 | 6837384 nnnnnn
nnnnnn's picture

"You break law, you pay the price. Welcome in adult's world."

 

fuck your mother you son of a bitch   turkey broke the law more than 1000 times in 2014 and sure it sould get its punishment

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 07:47 | 6837128 El Hosel
El Hosel's picture

Lets just Release the dash cam footage early and settle this right now for fuks sake.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 08:03 | 6837149 Spiritof42
Spiritof42's picture

Hot off the presses. One of the Russian pilots survived.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/11/25/turkey-russian-plane...

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 10:13 | 6837542 fel.temp.reparatio
fel.temp.reparatio's picture

...it's funny how the spokesman for the Turkmen rebel force, who took out one of the pilots is a Turk, has a Turkish name (Alpaslan Celik - pronounced Chelik) and speaks perfect Turkish. He's MIT for sure (Turkish intelligence). Turkmen by name only, go figure. 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 08:09 | 6837159 Last of the Mid...
Last of the Middle Class's picture

Definitely a speed trap waiting, got perfect video footage of the event too. hmmmmm. Turkey was protecting their RADICAL muslim brothers they do NOT want bombed. That is what happened and now the want NATO to intervene on their behalf. Fuck them to hell and back let Putin bomb their radical muslim asses too.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 08:10 | 6837163 autofixer
autofixer's picture

Is it possible the Russkie jet made multiple passes through that area?  Perhaps that is what is getting lost in translation?  

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 09:41 | 6837415 fightapathy
fightapathy's picture

Papa Erdogan did it as payback for Putin's blowing up his little boy's ISIS oil tanker trucks. The Russians have blown up like, what, 1,000 of them recently? That's a lot of cash down the drain for poor Baby Erdogan. Hence, PAYBACK muthafuckazzz!

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 09:47 | 6837452 insanelysane
insanelysane's picture

Warned 10 times over 5 minutes???

5 minutes is 300 seconds, yet the entire incursion was only 17 seconds.  These planes are moving 600mph which is 10 miles per minute so they cover 2 miles in 12 seconds.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 10:02 | 6837506 secretargentman
secretargentman's picture

How many seconds does it take from the pushing of the button until the impact of the missile? Even assuming Turdkey's story is right, I'm guessing at least one of those two events happened when the Russian jet was over Syria. 

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 10:08 | 6837533 Lostinfortwalton
Lostinfortwalton's picture

The shootdown was planned to prevent the nations fighting the various forms of rebels, either "moderate" or ISIS, from being forced into an alliance to accomplish the goal. A US/Russia/French/Turkish alliance could actually do that. Now we will posibly have a Russian/French group and a US/Turkey group at odds with each other. Is there really any difference between one group of savages blowing up Paris and another group of savages shooting pilots in their parachutes (which is a war crime under the Geneva Convention)?

Thu, 11/26/2015 - 21:06 | 6844076 GeoffreyT
GeoffreyT's picture

Odd that you don't count the pilot among the 'savages', given that the ordnance on the average bomber is enough to kill far more people than most 'savages' can accomplish in their entire lives.

 

Anyone who kills on orders from a political parasite, is a savage and an enemy of humanity (and a class traitor, to boot).

I've got more respect for the dimwits fighting for ISIS, than I do for the trailer-trash who sign up to fight for the US Death Machine... but I have an especially vitriolic hatred of non-trailer trash who do the same thing, since they are smart enough to know better.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 20:11 | 6840512 farneyman
farneyman's picture

"..the next time a Turkish F-16 gets "lost" over Latakia, a little payback is in order."

S-400s are confirmed to be on the way to Syria, if the Turks are as reckless as usual there will be at least 1 I reckon ;)

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 20:28 | 6840567 Surveyor4Pres
Surveyor4Pres's picture

Where's that article from a year ago, or so, where the Turkish Prime Minister (or someone up high) was audio-recorded talking about a False Flag event in Syria, where some turks were going to blow something up in Syria and then blame it on Assad?  Or something like that.

I know that I saw it here on ZH.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 19:22 | 6852107 are we there yet
are we there yet's picture

The bird Turkey is both stupid and aggressive. The country Turkey appears to be the same.

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