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Russia Says Turkey's Attack On Jet Was "Planned Provocation" As Ankara Moves Tanks Near Syrian Border
On Tuesday evening, we took a close look at the circumstances surrounding Turkey’s decision to shoot down a Russian Su-24 near the Syrian border. The incident was the most meaningful escalation in the conflict to date and marks the first time a Russian or Soviet plane has been downed by NATO since 1953.
The pilots ejected, one of whom was shot in his parachute by FSA-affiliated Alwiya al-Ashar militiamen who subsequently celebrated over the body. About an hour later, the FSA's 1st Coastal Brigade used a US-made TOW to destroy a Russian search and rescue helicopter, killing one Russian marine.
For his part, Vladimir Putin called Erdogan a backstabber and proceeded to accuse Turkey of flying the black flag of ISIS and funding the Islamic State cause by facilitating the sale of illegal crude.
Miraculously, there were no further escalations overnight, but as we outlined in detail on Tuesday, something doesn’t add up about the story Ankara is telling. According to a letter Turkey sent to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and the 15 members of the UN Security Council, the Russian warplane, flying at 19,000 feet, “violated Turkish national airspace to a depth of 1.36 miles and 1.15 miles in length for 17 seconds.” If you do the math on that, it means the Su-24 was basically flying at stall speed.
Journalists: Learn to do basic maths. Look at Turkey's statement to UN: 1.15 miles / 17 seconds x 60 x 60 = 243 miles/hour = 391 km/hour
— WikiLeaks (@wikileaks) November 24, 2015
Here's how we summed up the situation:
It's important not to forget the context here. Ankara is fiercly anti-Assad and in addition to being generally displeased with Russia's efforts to support the regime, just four days ago, Turkey summoned Russian ambassador Andrey Karlov over the alleged bombing of Turkish villages near the border.
Of course Russia wasn't just bombing Turkish civilians for the sheer hell of it. It's likely Moscow was targeting the very same FSA-affiliated Alwiya al-Ashar militiamen who shot and killed the parachuting Russian pilot.
In short, it looks like Ankara saw an opportunity to shoot down a Russian jet in retaliation for strikes on Turkish rebel fighters who are operating alongside anti-Assad forces.
With that in mind, note that on Wednesday, Sergei Lavrov (not known for holding his tongue or even for observing any semblance of diplomatic decorum) accused Ankara of conducting a pre-meditated strike. "We have serious doubts this was an unintended incident and believe this is a planned provocation,” Lavrov said, after a meeting with his Turkish counterpart Mevlut Cavusoglu. Lavrov also said he would back a plan to close the Turkish-Syrian border. "I think this is the right desicion. I hope President Hollande will tell us more about the issue tommorow. We would be ready to consider all measures that needed for this [closing the border]. By closing the border we will basically thwart the terrorist threat in Syria," he said.
Russia also said the Syrian army (so, Iran or Hezbollah) had retrieved the second pilot who is now "alive and well." Here's how French ambassador Alexandre Orlov summed up the situation in an interview with Europe 1 radio: “One on board was wounded when he parachuted down and killed in a savage way on the ground by the jihadists in the area. The other managed to escape and, according to the latest information, has been picked up by the Syrian army and should be going back to the Russian air force base.”
Note the difference in the way Russia and the US describes the FSA. For the US, they are a "moderate opposition group," for the Russians, they are "jihadists." Considering they are allied with al-Qaeda, and judging from the gruesome videos released by the group on Tuesday, you'd be forgiven if you're inclined to go with Moscow's characterization.
Meanwhile, Russia is set to deploy the S-400s. "Russia also said Wednesday it would take new measures in Syria to protect its aircraft, deploying powerful S-400 anti-air missile systems, which have a range of nearly 250 miles, to Russia’s Khmeimim airbase in northwestern Syria," WaPo reports, adding that "the airbase is located a little under 20 miles from the Turkish border, and has the potential to create headaches for Turkish and other aircraft in a U.S.-led coalition that are carrying out a separate airstrike campaign in Syria."
These are of course the same S-400s which the Western media claimed were already at Latakia earlier this month - a contention Russia denied at the time. Whether or not they were there is now immaterial - they'll be operational from this point on. As a reminder, here's what the systems look like:
What seems clear (as noted above and as discussed at length on Tuesday), is that Turkey is keen on protecting Alwiya al-Ashar and other anti-Assad forces operating near the Turkish border. Indeed, Sergei Lavrov said as much in a press briefing on Wednesday. "[The] question arises whether Turkey is defending Syria area to protect rebel infrastructure," Lavrov said at a press briefing in Moscow on Wednesday.
Indeed, Ankara looks to be stepping up its military presence near the area where the Russian plane was shot down. "Turkey has moved 20 tanks from west of country to southern province of Gaziantep, bordering Syria, and increased number of F-16s flying patrols along border to 18 as of yesterday," state-run Anadolu Agency said today. Here's a visual that shows you where Gaziantep is in relation to Aleppo and to the Su-24 crash site:
The logical next question to ask here is how prepared Turkey is to defend FSA positions because it's only a matter of time before the IRGC and Hezbollah invade these areas on the ground and when that happens, you can expect Ankara to cry genocide against Syria's Turkmen miniority. What comes after that is anyone's guess.
In the meantime, Lavrov says Russia "is not going to war against Turkey," but remember what we said last month when Turkey shot down a Russian drone: "For now, it appears as though The Kremlin is going to take this one in stride, but that may be "strike one" so to speak, meaning NATO might have one or two more pot shots it can take before Erdogan gets a slightly less "neighborly" call from Moscow."
Tuesday was strike two.
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Degeneracy of DNA British royal family not possible to question.
If Russia has their own internal Peak Resources study similar to the German one that accidentally got released (http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Leaked-German-Military-Study-Warns-...), I can see them eventually bringing that to the table for the oligarchs and TPTB to chew on. It would add perspective.
Bringing something like that forward would tend to put TPTB on notice to tread lightly and carefully, kind of like when Obama put TPTB on notice when he talked of "pitchforks"
“My administration,” the president added, “is the only thing between you and the pitchforks.” per : http://www.politico.com/story/2009/04/inside-obamas-bank-ceos-meeting-02...
Suspect BO was party to whatever rationale/meeting/reasoning that led the banker types to consider themselves as doing Gods work.
"Greater Israel" aka Future Rothchild world command base is on "S400 hold".
And now their body part supply chain is in jeopardy.
Black market organs ?? That takes guts.
............ and balls.
But no brains. No market for that.
The Daily Mail story on the shootdown included a comment by Putin that Turkey is allowing the import of human organs harvested by ISIS from murdered Syrians. That ISIS business has not been publicized until now.
"[Putin] also accused the Turkish government of supporting ISIS, saying that Russia had been made aware of the terrorist group trading human organs on black markets in Turkey."
He told the press conference: 'We have received information that in certain areas of Turkey, where terrorists feel at home, there is even an established market for human organs which are smuggled by terrorists from Syria, and those are body parts of the murdered Syrians.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3333117/Downed-Russian-pilot-picked-Syrian-army-envoy.html#ixzz3sSw7Pa15Drip, Drip, Drip. Release those documents. Who, What, When, Where, How, and most importantly, How Much.
Don't worry, the NYT and WaPo are on it. They do real investigative reporting.
Where in the Pentagon Press Room?
Here's the official story, boys, says the Pentagon spokesperson.
Don't worry. We're on it! says the NYT and WaPo.
Turkey may end up being the fall guy for all of this if they can't secure central Syria for the Saudi pipeline.
Interesting observation, so the history books will record 11/23/15 as the start of WWIII, by the Turks. They always have a patsy lined up when the SHTF.
Patsy? These bastards were crucifying Armenians at the start of the 20th century.
You don't want to start a war? Don't shoot at other nations.
Surely you don't believe that my use of the word "patsy" was intended to put Turkey in any kind of positive light? Is scapegoat better?
Point being that when this shit show gets flushed, all the NATO members and their allies will all point the finger at Turkey, even though they were all complicit just the same, and will all get a bye from the historical narrative, as to who really initiated this dump in the first place. For NATO and DC, Its simply a matter of knowing who the loosest cannon is, pointing them in the right direction, and then giving them the opportunity to fire at something. Fortunately for them, Turkey is right up next to it and Erdogan is the loosest cannon in the bunch. Too easy not to, IMO. Look at the Pentagram, simply shrugging it's shoulders like it has no idea what's going on, which supports the future narrative I'm seeing.
EDIT: And this always works because most people ignore history and only repeat what they hear in the "news".
I was in Yerevan two years ago and visited for the first time their
Museum of Genocide. Horrible. In Turkey saying that the Turks
killed Armenians in WW I can get you arrested or killed
Here in California I have an excellent Armenian dentist who will NOT forget or forgive the killing of over one million of his people by the Turks. Even the Japanese have had to apologize for their use of Chinese "comfort women" and the US has paid reparations (a pittance) to American citizens of Japanese ancestry illegally stripped of possessions in WW2. But the Turks have yet to be held to account.
My mother as a 7 year-old asked her grandpa why she never saw any of his family
they were all killed in cold blood by the Turks in a house-to-house.
his brother ran one way, he ran the other.
Didn't see each other again for over 40 years, reunited in Calif.
He died right after I was born at 85 years old in 1973.
Fuck the Turks
Fuck the Effendi-educated, Hebrew speaking, Donmeh crypto Young Turks, most of all.
I love your optimism thinking there will be books after WWIII.
To think through:
Turkish Strategy
----be a bigger regional player/close hegmon (Turkish geolocation alone is fundamental)
---- Turk proxy forces are getting erased by Russian/Iran/Leb Air/land assualt into Turkish regions.
1. I hit Russia with poke/slap (air superiority - take down plane);
a. Continue to funnel proxy forces/arms/money/oil/equip/ into Syria -> more hit and run tactics with supplied air and tank defensive weapons;
2. Wait for Russian response/action
a. Turn off oil/gas? (Y/N);
b. Not serious response;
c. Continue to funnel proxy forces/arms/money/oil/equip/ into Syria -> more hit and run tactics with supplied air and tank defensive weapons;
d. Engage in Air Defense vs any possible reply (ground all air in region ... wait for possible Russian reply)
etc. etc. ...
----
In my opinion ...
Russia is in a very big situation and with more and more forces being deployed this may lead to being run over or slowly bled to death via attrition.
The mountains once again will decide the outcome (along with anti/tank/air weapons). Secure borders is fundamental to this battle.
How does the FED's emergency meeting the day before play into any of this? Coincidence? Anyone hear anything about that meeting?
Anybody else have the feeling that we ought to be paying attention to something else while we're riveted to this potential WWIII kick-off action? What do the elites not want us to see right now?
Maybe it is Rahm Emanuel's trick to cover up that big dumb ugly son of a biitch that shot that nigger dead.
good question - if not THE question
A: money (as in - follow it)
B: foreign nation building (infrastructure/mega/giga projects nobody but the ptb pay attention to
r
https://enronnext101.wordpress.com/
There was an incident 3 years ago when turkish jet entered into syrian air space and has been shot down by SAA:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872
And what was the response of the NATO motherfuckers?
Anders Fogh Rasmussen: "It is another example of the Syrian authorities disregard for international norms, peace and security and human life."
The Russian MOD denies any violation of the Turkish airspace and releases video to prove its assertions.
http://sputniknews.com/military/20151124/1030695406/mod-su-24-flight-pat...
The rescued Russian pilot also denies any incursion in Turkish airspace, even for a second.
http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151125/1030742094/pilot-su24-rescued-no-...
This is extremy serious on behalf of the Turks. Has Erdogan gone mad?
What is interesting, is NATO is backing the Turkish version, and according to the DWN, the American President is confirming Russia's version. Is there something about tangled webs here?
"I can't wait until I get the all-clear from the medics, so that I can step back into the ranks. I'm going to ask our command to keep me on this base — I have a debt to repay, for my commander."
Statement of the surviving navigator of the SU-24.
Now that's not just a man; that's a Russian man!
Don't mess with the Bear!
http://beforeitsnews.com/conspiracy-theories/2015/11/us-gives-their-prox...
Russia: Go shoot down them Ottomans and terrorist FSA jihadis to dust!!
Replay of WW1. After the money interests bled England dry, she could no longer compete with a vibrant & technically advanced Germany. That same Germany was building rail lines and making trade deals around the world. So, numerous alliances were set up and when the Archduke was shot, the banksters had their excuse for turning over the "game board".
And millions died.
Of course, this is all a mystery to the university propagandized 'historians' who still think WW1 was a dreadful 'mistake'.
Along the border, a small portion of Turkey juts into Syria. To save time and gas, Russian pilots have been taking a short cut OVER AND OVER. It.s ok , you can cut through my yard all you want. Just don't be surprised if one day my dog bites you in the ass. And 17 or 7 or 700 seconds, a border incursion is a border incursion Why is it wrong for USA warplanes to violate someone elses's airspace but it's ok for Russia to do it? Nice double standard.
USA sells Turkey 2nd best stuff and it shot down Russia's best stuff. Guess Russia isn't so tough after all. Rusia though it could do whatever it wanted with impunity and got egg all over its face. AAWWWW, too efin bad
The SU-24 FENCER is not one of the most modern Russian planes. It is due to be retired by the SU-34. The FENCER was the USSR copy of the U.S. F-111 Ardvaark.
A bit off topic , but: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4731300,00.html
"Russia: No Turkish imports, we will import from Israel"
Note to Erdogan and his brat: You can't spend ISIS oil money when you are dead.
Step In The Arena, cheater.
We'll just be fence in for 17 seconds.....they'll never catch us.
It's not like we're going to Constantinople here.
Once you step in the arena, cheater; you're gonna be a-
mazed when you gaze at the armor on this leader
Fully clad and glad to find a cause, I won't pause
Fear is a joke, slowpoke, I'm like claws
that'll rip 'cause your gift, is merely flesh
Superficial and I wish you, would give it a rest
.
+1 for Gangstarr and DJ Premier
God that was fucking retarded. Who wrote that garbage, some imbecile.
high school drop out with an IQ of about 80??
It doesn't make 80.
All rap sucks and bringing that shit here lights your name up in red arrows.
all rap sucks
true THAT!
these a-hole kids growing up with it have no clue what the world has in store for em
r
https://enronnext101.wordpress.com/
I thought it was his brother. Maybe it's the whole damn clan.
Like I said*: "Turkey is the Street Whore of Business & Politics. There is nothing it will not do for the right price. Money is the only Principle by which they abide."
They used to have character and principles, but not anymore.
* If you're European or from the ME, you know this to be true.
Bitch slaped putin :D
Yesterday, ww all se how pathetic putin aviation is - anyone with right tools can bring down it's war planes and helicopters.
Turkey = ISIS
BTW, Zinu, typical of the dumb ass ukies paid to troll ZH, your comments are beyond stupid.
Russia never claimed that their jets were invincible, especially against an attack by a supposed ally.
A sneak attack.
SU-24 - is not a fighter. This bomber. And he he was attacked in the back, suddenly and cowardly.
yup, the surviving navigator said they didn't get any warning at all... http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151125/1030742094/pilot-su24-rescued-no-...
That's how the Turks and Obama like it.
Instead of claiming a backstabbing, Vlad could easily claim a buddy fucking.
Now THAT would make him a Close ally of Barry
This shit in the Middle East gets kinda messy
(Multiplle puns.... go for it)
that "backstabbing" thing (properly: a knife in the back) has it's roots in the history of the conflicts between Russia and Turkey
it's really, really old, and even found it's way into the German political vocabulary in the inter-war period. see "Dolchstoss Legende"
Not exactly Ghordo -
"Dolchstoss - The Stab in the Back. By 1920, the legend was widespread that the German army had lost the war only because pacifists, socialists, democrats, Jews, etc. had stabbed the country in the back."
so? is it so difficult to believe that Germany had cultural and linguistic imports from Turkey and Russia? Catherine the Great was, after all... a German by birth. Specifically a Prussian
No such thing as German = Prussian.
Real Prussians were Slavs who were mostly wiped out by Germans and had their name stolen.
If you want to dive down in history, just check out the historical context of "Marche Slave", see the comments on the music below.
Russia basically defended Serbia from guess who?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5poSw7tFLB4
But what is funny is this quote (for ZH'ers):
"Some financial commentators have noted that the terms of these loans were exceptionally favourable to the French and British banks which facilitated them, whereas others have noted that the terms reflected the imperial administration's willingness to constantly refinance its debts."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Eastern_Crisis_(1875%E2%80%9378)
Any reference to your new vocabulary word, only shows it in the context of Germany losing the first world war. Maybe you should come up with some link that explains this Russian Turkish reference you are claiming?
Stabbing in the back seems to be common idiom based on the actual act of murder without being seen. I can't see this as having any specific links to individual points in history.
It is also figurative for one that acts without honor.
+++
A carefully chosen metaphor that holds 'weight'...
The Russian are smart enough to know the West's biggest vulnerability (short of using nukes) is in the financialized Ponzi scheme that runs the economy. The biggest blow would come from a weekend event so don't expect anything until the market closes.
Or they could deploy older S300 batteries with 5v55v, 5v55s, or 6zh48 warheads (tactical nuclear) during market hours on Monday... The long Thanksgiving holiday (and its thin volume) isn't conducive to a large ROI on a response geared towards driving financial headlines.
If it is fate's will, China and Russia will coordinate the economic 'take-down' at a time of highest opportunity. And... It will most likely involve Gold to some degree or principle.
Plug this into your potato-port, xenu.
"It's" = "It is"
Possessive of it is "its".
-1 for educating trolls.
A little morning humor. Potato-port?
No? Nothing? Tough crowd.
I upvoted all. I found the exchange to be humorous.
"Yesterday, ww all se how pathetic putin aviation is - anyone with right tools can bring down it's war planes and helicopters".
Only an idiot can think that vile and surprise attack from a fighting machine on bomber in the back, - it is "dogfight between two equal fighter."
Perhaps Turkey and Russia are colluding, made an agreement and are using this event for propagandizing.
Had a rough weekend? Go back to sleep.
Erdogan: NSA/CIA bitch
To clarify in advance, my sympathies are currently fully with Russia on today's global stage.
But Putin has been breathlessly naive in his dealing with the West; how many pokes in the eye and knives in the back does he need till the penny drops, that his patience is seen as a weakness?
Some say that the US will try to assassinate Putin, but why so? He keeps turning the other cheek like a good patsy; what is not to like?
C'mon Putin, it is not your actions on lack of actions that grate me, but the constant 'deer in headlights' surprise that you present us with, every time your western 'partners' screw you over yet again. Wake the fuck up and recognise the nature of the other actors on the stage. Just because you believe in orderly and civil relations, it doesn't mean that they think like you. Your 'partners' are products of an enduring system that harbours an ancient and determined ambition to break Russia as an independent nation and then loot it. FFS, read Brzezinski, PNAC or the Wolfovitz doctrine; they are not hiding it! And the British Empire before that, arming the lesser rival Turkey, to keep the Bosphorus out of Orthodox hands, and help contain the greater rival, Russia. This is a very old game.
I don't know what the right response is, but standing around looking surprised and disappointed all the time, is bordering on insane. With Ukraine now a US vassal, and NATO shooting down Russian planes, where exactly is your goddamn line in the sand, Mr Putin? Your perceived inaction is emboldening all this aggression, and your 'partners' are circling you ever closer with their knives out; they are not even hiding it!
He's played it brilliantly by exposing (repeatedly) to the world who is behind what by patiently, legally morally and correctly dealing with the issues at hand. Since the Georgia fiasco, there have been numerous attempts to force issues but it hasn't worked.
Precisely. Putin is the antithesis of naive. Do not mistake his patience for naivete! Watch & learn. The man is brilliant.
Putin will have a great many EU leaders asking if they should wait for further slaughter at the hands of ISIS/USUS or if they should actually stand up for theior own citizens, abandon the ISIS/USUS conglomerate, and join with Putin in putting ISIS/USUS six feet under.
Next question for Europe will be, do we really want to let a body organ marketeer become a member of the EU? Especially when the body orgam marketeer maintains boders so porus that ISIS/USUS recruits are able to pass through on their way to fight in Syria and are then completely free to pass back through the Turkish border and rain devastation on Paris, London, Spain and elsehwere.
I would not be suprised to discover that some unkwon 3rd paty stats shipping covert arms to the Kurdish population in Syria (to help close the Syria/ Turkey border) and to the Kurdish population within Turkey. If Erdogna is in favor of foreign sponsored regieme change how can he object.
Next step would be support for the Yemeni rebels and similar factions to provoke regieme change in KSA and end the support for Middle East insanity once and for all.
That makes sense such as it goes, but you are making the same fatal assumption that I believe the Russians are making, being that Europe's leaders are rational and independent.
Consider instead, the view espoused by Paul Craig Roberts, being that Europe is a collection of US vassals. Seeing it from that perspective, changes everything.
Exactly--the average American may be too entranced, enthralled, insulated, depressed, medicated and dimwitted to question the slop that comes through the MSM but many in the world are awake and watching closely.
Bastiat, you and I are on the same side, but the schism in our understanding is with respect to the winning of western hearts and minds by the Russians.
We ZH'ers are such a minority, that it is not apparent as such within the camaraderie of this website, but in broader society, we are so fringe that we do not register at all. The public is so dumbed down, and 'education' and MSM is so biased. that the public's distrust and hatred of Russia is visceral and beyond reason.
Such irrational distrust will if it comes to it, bite and hack at the Russian hand that saves them. In fact it is happening already, no? I have British friends terrified of ISIS, yet they roll their eyes when i cite Russian actions against ISIS. 'A pox on them all' is the generic response.
This is my point; if Putin wants to chase hearts and minds, I can understand his reasoning, but I am pretty sure that he is just wasting time. If he loses thousands of Russian lives in the process (as he IS in fact doing in Donbass), the vast majority of western people will actually draw smug satisfaction from that.
it is disgusting ignorance, but it is what it is. Our fellow citizens, educated or not, are indeed, cattle, as certain others have noticed already, and exploit with ease.
Perhaps he realizes that the fuse is lit on the US economy and if he can forestall a war with the west, the culprit for the economic crash (when it occurs) will be revealed to even the dimmest american lighbulb to see. His hope is that the americans will take matters into their own hands once it's obvious we are being ruled by a criminal cartel. Perhaps the average american will find these wars of agression are not only a waste of lives and money but are against our belief system when the criminals and their motivations are finally revealed?
My alarm stems from the fact that Putin always appears to be surprised by Western (effectively ziocon) duplicity. This propensity to be surprised, is not good.
"...appears to be surprised by Western (effectively ziocon) duplicity..."
I think that anything that [appears] to be something on the world stage(What we see) might be something completely different behind the scenes.
The pilot might of very well been a 'pawn' in the long game of chess. Now Putin knows Turkeys position in the whole scheme of things. BUT more than likely, he already knew and just wanted to show the world(supposed US allies) the true story line.
I don't think he's surprised or caught off guard, but merely knows that rash responses trigger strong repercussions in whatever form, though for domestic politics he needs to be seen as the strong man and therefore needs to not tread too carefully.
Putin has said consistently, over and over again, Russia has no ability to go toe to toe with Nato.
I think that is a fair assessment.
Russia would have to turn to tactical nukes pretty quickly if there were an conventional warfare escalation.
I believe Russia is playing the longer game, waiting for western collapse under its insane fiscal and social policies.
Putin is playing a poor hand as dealt as best as he can.
VV Putin said that Ru has no desire to go to war with NATO, not that it hasnt the ability to do so.
Ru has the ability to annihilate NATO in conventional conflict and then some.
Ru has the ability to annihilate NATO in theater nuclear engagement.
But, effectively, it seems that VV Putin is doing everything he can for all the peoples of the world, namely averting a nuclear apocalypse.
Apocalypse which some of the chosenites deem desireable and/or survivable (for them, of course).
Rarely the lines between good and evil were more clearly drawn.
I watched Rogozin on Vladimir Soloviev interview program in 2014. He said after the Georgia confrontation, the RF realized how antiquated the RF military and its equipment were. It was then they began making an investment in their military with a focus on "smart" weapons as they had a manpower problem. And they could get more bang for their buck (a dig at the F-35?). I don't know for sure since I was reading the subtitles. What I got from the interview was that the major problem with the RF is population. They cannot afford to do what the West does, throw useless eaters into the blender.
Russia is hinting that China, Iran and others have its back.
patience... Mr Putin is 'calculating' his next move. He is NOT "reactive" like the US/NATO was hoping he would be. The next move [and we will know it when it happens] will be brilliant.
WHY would you want Putin to be 'reactive'? That is not smart and would go against everything he has shown himself to be so far in this psychotic game being played; Putin is several steps ahead of the rest of the world leaders. So what if he is [perceived] as weak, it is beneficial to Russia to be underestimated.
*this kind of reminds me of the scene in Star Wars when they turn on the Jedis while in the middle of combat. Shot in the back.
Max UK
You are wrong. Putin and his advisors (Lavrov etc.) understand completely the US drive for global full-spectrum dominance.
Russia is standing up to the US/NATO bloc where and when it can.
Read a few of Putin's speeches:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/vladimir-putins-speech-to-the-united-nation...
http://www.globalresearch.ca/vladimir-putin-on-france-and-europe-nato-me...
Well I hope you are right, but my assessment is that the Russians still believe that they can woo cooler and more rational heads, both in western governments and their electorates.
On both counts, I think they are wrong. Regarding the public, we on ZH are NOT representative of the public. When it comes to these topics, the public, whether educated or not, follow their prejudices. When I suggest to those Brits terrified of ISIS, to applaud Russia as the the primary state fighting ISIS, their reaction is repugnance. To them, Russia, ISIS, its all the same. I just despair!
I was careful in my original post to state, that I do not know what Russia should actually do; rather, it was Putin's seeming misplaced sense of optimism that I was railing against.
like I said, I prefer that you are right.
takes time to prepare a war machine, stage supplies and wear your opponent down. I think Putin is highly aware that confrontation is all too real at this point. I think he is buying time...
Russia is backed by China, eho has now announced its fight on IS.
I think he is doing quite well. This was the time and place. He is winning the propaganda war in Europe as well I can tell. Merkel, Hollande and Obama will be gone by 2017. There is no leader in the wings for any of these "powers". Russia will be out of recession by 2016 while the West continues to slide. Time is the friend of Russia, not the West.
Tsuki, if indeed you are correct, that the nature of NATO command and strategy will change when those stooges are out of power (which I doubt, but I roll with it), then you have a timeline for whatever NATO is planning, to be implemented.
If they do actually have a deadline, then they well know it and will proceed accordingly.
Well max, it seems to me you don't understand the waiting game that Russia is playing. The US foreys against Russia have so far netted the US little other than the neocons stuck in the quagmire of a Neonazi puppet Ukraine wholly dependent on the US for cash. The US support for ISIL will be / is already seen by the world as teorism on a state level.
Putin plays the waiting game because the US is thrashing in quicksand, and it prefers to watch the US sink, rather than get pulled down with it.
I for one am glad Putin keeps his cool....its the one chance the world may have to live through the fall of imperial America, without a nuclear winter.
I hope we can avoid a nuclear winter, too.
The US probably has a major shock to its standard of living coming. If that is the worst of it, I can live with that. I just hope that Prozac and the other brain destroying fluoride-based antidepressants that 20% of the population is taking is removed from insurance coverage, forcing Americans to more honestly appraise the shithole they've dug these past few decades through their active neglect and denial of reality. Propaganda + Prozac = Brave New World.
"The foundation of all mental illness, is the avoidance of legitimate suffering"
Carl Jung
In the US, and in many parts West, people prefer to resort to mood altering substances to deal with their refusal to acccept the challenges of life, and deal with them in an adult and resourceful manner. This is why we have adult children, or to put it another way, immature adults.
I suspect this may be the defining attribute of so many of our people in the West. Why so many expect the government to provide, and why our "civilisation" is doomed. Just look at the decadence and depravity of the West. It's sad, because we had so much to offer;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF79f59FQOM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbJcQYVtZMo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6OgZCCoXWc
"for music hath charms to soothe the savage breast"
Those are three spectacular videos. A flash mob igniting a crowded public space with a performance of Beethoven. Views of the earth with astronauts in space. These visual images sure beat the numbing repeats of the plane impacts on the WTC towers. I guess it's a matter of focus. One is of crippling man's Spirit, while the other is of exhalting it. Guess which one is the focus of the corporate media? -- and why so little that is uplifting and enobling is shared there (in between the 90 second pharmaceutical ads)?
I have read many things on this site, where I have seen many austute as well as crass comments, according to the mindsets of their authors. Sometimes I see a post that reaches to the very heart of the struggle to communicate our ideas and passions, in which we can choose whether to act fairly or in a foul manner to achieve what we desire.
In this post, we are being shown that there is beauty and wonder upon this Earth for those who aspire to perceive it, and even when we do not have that aspiration, sometimes we are struck so forcefully by powerful truths that we realize it anyway.
Your expectations and beliefs of Putin are mistaken. Given what he has to work with within a Russia that was crumbling when he assumed office, notwithstanding the almost miraculous achievements of his in such a short time, Russia is still in many ways weak, although it also has some massive strengths.
His performance so far has been to my mind hugely impressive, and he seems to be surrounded by many people of great skill, wisdom, and integrity. His greatest challenge is that so often he has to be reactionary, responding to the machinations of the zionazi West, and I say this as a westerner, as far west as you can go in Europe.
He invariably displays calmness of temperament and sagacity and great resourcefulness to attempts at provocation.
Perhaps above al what impresses me most, is that very Russian quality of love of Mother Russia. Putin is unashamedly first and foremost a Russian patriot and nationalist, while at the same time seeking friendship and amity among all nations in accordance with international law and the best traditions of the Christian faith from which he springs.
His problem with the West is that he will not sell out Russia into vassalage. He will only accept equal partnership, and they will never accept that, not least the European vassals, for it would demonstrate for all of the European peoples how their elites are truly slaves of the REAL EVIL EMPIRE.
I believe that given what Putin has to work with in a still recovering Russia, he has done and is doing spectacularly well.
God bless him, and God bless mother Russia! In saving Russia, he just may incidentally save us all.
Looks like we have "Escalation" for Thanksgiving Dinner this year after all. Thanks Vlad'
Slaughter yourself bitch.
Thanks "Vlad"?
You fucking stupid sack of shit
Russia killing terrorists and the rat bastard Turks shoot down one of their planes...and it's "Vlad" who is escalating?
You sound like some smug and dumb American cunt with that kind of logic.
Of course it's planned, they Turks have film crew waiting there.
That shoot down was planned. The orders came from washigton.
S-400! For the love of Mike! That thing has incredible range.. I figured they would just bring in the S-300.
I imagine the Turk fighter pilots are taking an extra moment to praise Allah before stepping into those jets today.
This is an opportunity to operationally test the system, and they'll not pass it up.
SWRichmond
For gods sake, get some videos of it. You could make millions. I just want the tee shirt franchise. Please
And don't forget sales.
It looks obvious it was planned, but I can't see any links to the US. Shit-stain Erdogan has his own agenda and doesn't need the US to behave like a dick. It's preposterous enough that the US is uncritically supporting Turkey in this, even claiming that those allahu-akbar screamers killed the parachutist in self defence (White House spoke-sperson).
It would be prudent for Turkey to shut down its lemonade stand and leave the premises...before it gets hurt...
I read shoot down which will work also.
Thanks ZH. Now my son wants a S-400 Air Defense System for Christmas. "Dad, do you think I can hit some Obama drones with this S-400?"
S-400 is for US bombers , Nato BM's etc.
Buy a shotgun for drone hunting or AK-47
I'm getting sick of both Russia and the West acting like sissies with nothing but airstrikes. This incident was bound to happen with so many planes flying over Syria. The only way to destroy ISIS is with boots on the ground, Fallujah style. Where are all of these ferocious Chinese and Hezbollah ground troops we've been hearing about? If you're not willing to fire bullets at close range, then go home.
I'm surprised that some haven't flown into one another of a drone already.
It's crowded up there, ma!
It's like a fight in middle school. Two guys fight while the third talks to the girlfriend on the sidelines.
Erdogan's "Legacy" will be to have destroyed one of the most properous secular economies/societies in the world.
Now that Erdogan recently won reelection, he has more flexibility.
Won?
yes,
to annex Syrian territory (with US support)
http://www.globalresearch.ca/turkey-goes-to-war-plan-to-annex-sovereign-...
and
"won reelection" (lol)
Our Russophobic Tylers couldn't help but get a few good digs in, could they?
Try as they might, talking $hit as they will, they still cannot obfuscate the decorum Lavrov has maintained in the face of provocateurs for the next "Great" war.
It may be time for Turkey to deploy the EM-50 Urban Assualt Vehichle. Just sayin....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bENF08EyIck
LOL!
This thing has everything.
waiting for the Putin "other shoe to drop"
it's gonna happen...just don't when.
With ISIL becomes daily headache, is the US raising a bigger beast which has every intention to provoke a world war?
"Sergei Lavrov (not known for holding his tongue or even for observing any semblance of diplomatic decorum) accused Ankara of conducting a pre-meditated strike."
believe it or not, I'm a big fan of Sergei. I tend to agree on nearly everything he says. Twice the man Putin tries to be, and that's not meant to be a slur on Putin
nevertheless, there is an additional reason for Ankara to be "protective" of that region. The Turkic (not Turkish) population there
a big, big issue between Turkey and Russia, and this since Catherine The Great and one reason among others for a dozen wars among those two powers. Have a read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples
And that will exactly be the way Russia will piss off Erdogan: by intensifying the attacks on the Turkmen rebels. Putin will not go directly after Erdogan or Turkey. Instead they will piss them off big time and will also increase the bombing of ISIS oil facilities since Erdogan's son is involved in that. Perhaps they even might arm the Kurds. This will infuriate Erdogan and that will give him trouble.
this "game" is not about "pissing off" other powers. The Great Game, particularly when "played" by many parts (see: multipolar world) is about protecting the own... interests
do oil trucks have to cross the Syrian-Turkish borders where the Turkmen are? not necessarily. so: agreement is possible, in this one side issue
Arm the Kurds? Last time I looked, they have a different set of sponsors. And arming someone's else's allies is a no-no-no for plenty of reasons
besides, Iran would really, really hate that
This game is about who will dominate Eurasia. And alliances come and go. For now, it is Sunni/NATO/Qatar/SA/Turkey/ISIS vs. Shii/Iran/Syria/Hezbollah/Russia. Feel free to add a few more to both of them. Kurds are stuck in the middle and screwed as always.
"This game is about who will dominate Eurasia". That's the very definition of The Great Game. And the more Powers play, the less it's possible for one to achieve this goal
China, the US and the the EU countries are involved, too. The whole Gotha, the whole "Who is Who" is involved to some degree
Yep, kind of reminds you of 1914 doesn't it now? (Although I am not that old). Anybody got an Archduke somewhere? I hope they players are wiser now than they were then.
If Europe was involved, Europe is but the shadow of its former self, a playball of NATO and the US with no will of its own. You need to admit that Ghordi!
I agree.
No,,, this was simply poking Russia by NATO to see the response. Now that said,,, if those that shot that pilot parachuting down were Turkmen then they may have some bad days in the future.
A devious thought occurred to me that getting S499;s deployed was exactly what
the West wanted.Very much an unknown quantity that the West would do most anything to
learn more about before an assault on Russia..
Two reasons for the attack on the plane:
1) to kill off any idea of a broader coalition against ISIS (not in Turkey's interest).
2) because Russia bombed ISIS oil tankers to bits. I read somewhere that Erdogan's family in involved in the illegal ISIS oil trade.
ISIS oil. turkish tankers. Thus the payback.
Obama gave the green light to Erdogan at G20 meeting
Meant to keep France from cozying upto Russia after Paris false flag
Now France is obligated to stand by a fellow NATO member
Add the Russian deaths to Obama's Butcher's Bill
I was wondering how Hollande cozying up to Russia would go down in DC. Leaders in Europe cannot be as blind as they are perceived. They must know the ins and outs of it all but have little room to maneuver.
They have no choice. The EU is colonzed by Ameriica.
France and Germany cant so no to Obama any more than East Gemany and the Slav states could say no to the Soviets
Fuck the EU said Nuland. Their economies are trashed by Obama insisted sanctions. Now they have to back ISIS in the same manner bc Peace Prize says so
Turkey, the number one state sponsor of ISIL terrorism in IRAQ and Syria acting as a proxy for US/Israeli/Saudi/Qatar interests removed its mask today via a statement by one of its intellegence chiefs spokesmouths:
http://fortruss.blogspot.co.id/2015/11/turkish-intelligence-chief-isis-i...
Right. The Intelligence Chief--one of Erdogans closest allies says Russia is trying to "smother Syrias Islamist revolution" and that ISIS should have a diplomatic presence in Ankara. Couldn't believe what I was reading.
So much for being on the same team eh Turkey? Now we all know whose paying your bills. Showed their hand they did.
This is what happens when jackasses apply the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" template over and over again. Eventually, you fuck up. Turkey fucked up royally. Not in a million years should Russia have expected a NATO alligned country to use no judgement and have a hair trigger like a horney 17 year old feral male.
I award Turkey no points and may God have mercy on your souls.
"With that in mind, note that on Wednesday, Sergei Lavrov (not known for holding his tongue or even for observing any semblance of diplomatic decorum) accused Ankara of conducting a pre-meditated strike."
Sergey Lavrov is perhaps the most professional senior diplomat on planet Earth in this age, and perhaps the best since the Marchese di San Giuliani of Italy or Prince Metternich of Austria.
The dimwitted dolts who pretend to be diplomats in Washington and Paris and London have a very long way to go to ever approach Lavrov's so-called "lack of decorum"!
I tend to agree, though I admit not following Lavrov's words very closely all the time. My impression of the war of words is that the position of Russia, and thus the one esposed by Lavrov, seems most reasonable and aligned with the information I believe to be facts, to the extent anyone among the masses can actually determine facts from afar.
The Russians seem to be diplomatic when appropriate and blunt when pressed too far. I think it is their way of saying "we have had enough'.
fightapathy
As an American I am truly embarassed every time I see Lurch in Sergei's presence. Lurch is so embarassing while Sergei is eating up being seen with a foreign minister with absolutely no decorum. Ouch, ouch, ouch.
SCORE Sergei 10 x 10 to the 12th power Lurch -2
Russian's are falling for it.
The regional stooge (a al Georgia) has been instructed to poke away.
Expect now a limited air defense/control demonstration from both sides.
Remember that Russia has moved more air superiority assets into the region over the last few weeks (along with US Air Force).
More and more the Russian's are further dragged into this growing quagmire.