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Chief Of Russian Air Force Accuses Turkey Of Coordinated Ambush On Downed Jet
By now everyone is aware of the Turkish side of the story of how a Russian Su-24 was downed by a Turkish F-16 on Tuesday morning, when it allegedly crossed into Turkish airspace for a grand total of 17 seconds, with Turkey supposedly warning the Russian bomber which had been targeting alleged jihadists in the region no less than "ten times." Turkey even produced an alleged recording of said warning, which Russia implied was faked as the surviving pilot made it very clear no actual warning had been received by the Russian warplane.
So now that Russia has had three days to go through the evidence and assemble the pieces of what it thinks happened, here is the summary as presented earlier today by the Commander in Chief of the Russian air force, Viktor Bondarev, which however presents a very gloomy picture with dire consequences for the peaceful geopolitics of the middle east.
In summary, what Col. Gen. Bondarev said is that Turkey actively sought to ambush and bring down the Russian jet starting long before the actual missile was fired, which can be confirmed by the flight patterns of Turkish warplanes which had taken off well in advance, otherwise they would not have had enough time to reach the battlezone.
The Russian ministry of defense made this grave accusation quite explicit on Twitter an hour ago, when it said that Turkey had engaged in a choreographed ambush.
#SYRIA #Bondarev: Two F-16's were in the duty zone for 1 h 15 min (from 9:11 till 10:26) ready to attack from the air ambush
— ?????????? ?????? (@mod_russia) November 27, 2015
Here are the details of the Su-24's final hour as recounted by RT which notes that a pair of tactical bombers took off from Khmeimim airbase in Latakia at 06:15 GMT, with an assignment to carry out airstrikes in the vicinity of the settlements of Kepir, Mortlu and Zahia, all in the north of Syria. Each bomber was carrying four OFAB-250 high-explosive fragmentation bombs.
Ten minutes later, the bombers entered the range of Turkish radars and took positions in the target area, patrolling airspace at predetermined heights of 5,800 meters and 5,650 meters respectively. Both aircraft remained in the area for 34 minutes. During this time there was no contact between the crews of the Russian bombers and the Turkish military authorities or warplanes.
Some 20 minutes after arriving at the designated area, the crews received the coordinates of groups of terrorists in the region. After making a first run, the bombers performed a maneuver and then delivered a second strike.
Immediately after that, the bomber crewed by Lieutenant-Colonel Oleg Peshkov and Captain Konstantin Murakhtin was attacked by a Turkish F-16 fighter jet operating from the Diyarbak?r airfield in Turkey. The time needed to get the aircraft ready at the Diyarbak?r airfield and travel to the attack zone is an estimated 46 minutes.
?
"The radar surveillance data confirms that two F-16 fighter jets were patrolling the flight zone for an hour an 45 minutes at an altitude of 2,400 meters [some 7,800 feet], which speaks of a deliberate action and their readiness to attack from an ambush over the Turkish territory," Bondarev told reporter.
In order to attack the Russian Su-24 with a close-range air-to-air missile, Bondarev said that the Turkish fighter jet had to enter Syrian airspace, where it remained for about 40 seconds. "According to radar tracking data, it was the Turkish warplane that crossed into the Syrian airspace for about 40 seconds to a depth of 2 kilometers [6,560 feet], while the Russian fighter-bomber never violated the Turkish border", he said.
#SYRIA #Bondarev: Objective monitoring data proves that Turkish jet was in Syrian airspace for 40 sec and dived 2 km into Syrian territory
— ?????????? ?????? (@mod_russia) November 27, 2015
Having launched its missile from a distance of 5-7 kilometers, the F-16 immediately turned towards the Turkish border, simultaneously dropping its altitude sharply and disappearing from the range of Russian radars at the Khmeimim airbase.
#SYRIA #Bondarev: Turkish fighter performed missile strike from 5-7 km, which proves that the F-16 was in the Syrian air space
— ?????????? ?????? (@mod_russia) November 27, 2015
The Russian general again reiterated that at no point preceding the attack did the Russian bomber violated Turkish airspace.
One of Turkish F-16Cs stopped its maneuvers and began to approach the Su-24M bomber about 100 seconds before the Russian aircraft came closest to the Turkish border, which also confirms the attack was pre-planned, said Bondarev.
"At 10.24 Moscow time the crew carried out bombing and after it the plane was shot down by an air-to-air missile launched by a Turkish Air Force F-16 that had taken off from the 8th Diyarbakir airbase on the Turkish territory."
The launch of a missile was confirmed by the crew of the second Russian Su-24. "[The crew] observed a plume of a white smoke and reported it."
And this is where the narrative gets even more convoluted because according to Bondarev the Turkish F-16 was guided to its intended target from the ground and launched an air-to-air missile while the Russian warplane was readying to carry out a second attack on terrorist positions.
"The method of guidance of F-16 aircraft into effective engagement zone directly, but not along the pursuit course curve shows that the fighter jet was directed from a ground control station," Bondarev told reporters.
The fighter jet stopped maneuvers in the area of patrolling and commenced missile launching a minute and 40 seconds before the Su-24 maximum proximity to the Syrian-Turkish border, Bondarev added.
#SYRIA #Bondarev: F-16 fighter started leaving duty zone for offset point in 1 minute 40 sec before max approach of #Su24M to the border
— ?????????? ?????? (@mod_russia) November 27, 2015
Furthermore, it appears that the jihadist groups on the ground were anticipating an event of this kind playing out above them.
Bondarev called attention to the readiness of the Turkish media, which released a professionally-made video of the incident recorded from an area controlled by extremists a mere 1.5 hours after the Su-24 was downed.
Furthermore, the operation to rescue the surviving navigator took several hours and eventually recovered Konstantin Murakhtin, although one Russian Marine in the team was killed when the rescue helicopter was destroyed by a US-made tank missile launched by the extremists – an incident they filmed and published online within hours of the attack.
He also mentioned the memorandum of understanding regarding the campaign in Syria, signed by Moscow and Washington on October 26. In accordance with this agreement, the Russian side informed its American counterparts about the mission of the two bombers in the north of Syria on November 24, including the zones and heights of operation.
"Taking this into account, the Turkish authorities' statement on not knowing which aircraft were operating in the area raises eyebrows."
#SYRIA Statements of Turkish party that they hadn't ID'd Rus aircraft are confusing: US AF received data about Su-24M from #Hmeymim airbase
— ?????????? ?????? (@mod_russia) November 27, 2015
Finally, Bondarev also mentioned the memorandum of understanding regarding the campaign in Syria, signed by Moscow and Washington on October 26. In accordance with this agreement, the Russian side informed its American counterparts about the mission of the two bombers in the north of Syria on November 24, including the zones and heights of operation.
This is perhaps the most important accusation, as it ties in with the incendiary remark lobbed by Putin at US "protocols" yesterday:
We told our US partners in advance where, when at what altitudes our pilots were going to operate. The US-led coalition, which includes Turkey, was aware of the time and place where our planes would operate. And this is exactly where and when we were attacked. Why did we share this information with the Americans? Either they don't control their allies, or they just pass this information left and right without realizing what the consequences of such actions might be. We will have to have a serious talk with our US partners.
To summarize, here is what Russia has implied: the US shared the flight path details of the Russian Su-24 with Turkey in advance of the flight, which then Turkey used to ambush and take down the Russian bomber, with the implicit blessing of the Pentagon. Turkey may have further shared data with "Syria Free Army" US-armed jihadists on the ground, who not only recorded the downing of the bomber and the execution of its parachuting pilot, but also were prepared to attack a Russian rescue helicopter (with US weapons) which led to a second casualty - an attack which was also captured on clip and promptly uploaded!
* * *
If Putin is in indeed onboard with this version, he will deem - perhaps not diplomatically, but certainly in internal circles - Turkey's aggression to be an act of war, and not only by Turkey but by NATO and the US, which provided Turkey with the data it needed to lead to a Russian loss of life.
What Russia's next steps will be is unclear, however as we reported previously, we expect far more aggressive provocations on the Syria-Turkey border by both sides, especially now that every Russian bombers will have air support, and now that Russian S-400 missiles can reach any provoking Turkish jet in minutes, in effect Russia establishing a "No Fly Zone" above Syria.
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It might have been a trap. I know from my experience with reptilian people, they take trust as a sign of weakness to be exploited. I have to assume Putin knows this.
they take trust as a sign of weakness to be exploited
I can testify to that.
No. He does not trust the West anymore, but giving that information ensures that there is no excuse that it was an accident.
I seriously doubt that he expected Turkey to do something this stupid. This is how wars start.
You can also bet that Russian fighter pilots will take down any Turkish jet that get near them (or try and fail)
Elementary dear Watson...regime change in the Ottoman ruin. Drone the caliph of carnage and do the downtrodden Turks a major favor. Support the new regime and then kill NATO.
A win win for all and sundry.
Just arm the Kurds. They'll do the rest. We've seen the way the Peshmerga fight.
Iran and syria could be against russia arming the kurds because kurds extend into these countries as well. Kurdish independance in one place will lead to their calls of indpependance in these places too. Instead he could buy off/arm twist /threaten erdogan with regime change to fall in line. Russia's main target is saudi not turkey.
The fatal mistake the US military has made was assuming that the Russian military is as unprofessional, inept, scatter-brained and imbecilic as itself....
You really thing the Russian army is not "unprofessional, inept, scatter-brained and imbecilic"? There is a blown up airplane, helicopter, and dead pilot to prove you wrong. They are even worse than the Americans army.
Yeah - I guess they should have assumed the US and their Turkey brained ally would shoot down a much slower bomber in a totally unprovoked and nonthreatening situation -in the most serious provocation since the Cuban missile crisis -and threaten WW3 in order to protect the erdogan drug business and defense of ISIS terrorists
Consider the posture of highly-trained militaries: always be prepared for attack. The state of an aircraft carrier or nuclear submarine is almost indistinguishable between peacetime and war. They are always doing drills and simulating defense. They do not allow unknown small boats to get close.
Even when a Cessna flies over Area 51 you instantly armed fighters intercepting. For a fighter or bomber dropping live bombs to be blindsided by an attack is unthinkable. I think Russia needed a pretext to escalate against Turkey because of their aid to ISIS.
For a Putin, Bush, Blair, the life of a pilot, the value of an old fighter plane, the death of 3000 in a skyscraper — they are all meaningless. They are all pawns in foreign policy.
This is a silly analysis.
Not silly when you consider the speed with which Russia initiated sanctions against Turkey. Sanctions don't lead to more profit to compensate for the loss of military assets. Sanctions increase costs for both sides.
Russia wanted to escalate.
They do not allow unknown small boats to get close.
The key word is "unkown." Russian desiel-electric subs are undectable. Nuclear subs, not so. They can't turn the pumps off.
Aircraft carriers are sitting ducks against hyper-speed cruise missiles.
The sense I get out of military spending is that it's one big public works project with an emphesis on spending. This is building up to a classic mistake of an imperial agressor underestimating its opposition.
Put down the crack pipe and go for some rehab.
I think I read US crash 8 aircraft in last two weeks..all by themself
Doubtful that any of this will matter. Our Saudi ally and UN human rights member f*cking crucifies people for even questioning their regime and uses their religion as an excuse and nobody seems to care. This evil is completely uncloaked and the western media is in complete support of it. These idiots all around us are in complete support of it.
Sooner or later they will probably just drop the ISIS meme and just admit that they want complete control and if anyone has a problem with it they can rot in prison or die. They have all made a choice and I hope there is a hell, I really do.
For some reason this attack on the Su-24 reminds me of the ambush by the Americans on the Japanese admiral Yamamoto in 1943.
In the Yamamoto case, the Americans were able to decode a secret message from the Japanese allowing the Americans the exact coordinates, so that the Americans fighters were in the correct position to shoot down the Japanese plane.
In the case of the Su-24, it was much easier as the Russians had given the American military their exact itinerary of their jets.
A real stab in the back as the Russians say!
Thank you for bringing that up Oldrep. Few people realise that Yamamoto was the only military leader assassinated during WWII. Anyone that wants a truer understanding of the events that prompted Japan to attack Pearl Harbor should read Yamamoto's biography. The man was a military genius who understood the U.S. and its capabilities. He drafted several peace proposals, during the London accords, which were later reneged on by the Brits and U.S. Had the Enterprise been at port, as it was supposed to be, the Pacific fleet would have been crippled and the Japanese would have had enough time to strengthen their positions throughout the Pacific. The world today would be a much different place.
Many believe that Gen. George Patton, who opposed many aspects of Allied policy after the war was assassinated by his own side or at least by Zionists (to the extent one can tell one from the other).
"The Russian ministry of defense made this grave accusation quite explicit on Twitter an hour ago, when it said that Turkey had engaged in a choreographed ambush."
Declare war on Twitter...
Buy Twitter and profit while you can.
"What Russia's next steps will be is unclear [...]"
I may be wrong but thus far I think Putin has decided not to respond militarily against Turkey.
He has beefed up support for his bombers operating in Syria with S-400 batts and if the situation demands, he will probably use them.
Turkey Shoots Down More Than Just a Russian Jet - Finian Cunningham
http://thenewsdoctors.com/?p=550413
Turkey is a Pawn on the Chessboard for US-NATO War against Russia
TND Guest Contributor: Timothy Alexander Guzman, Silent Crow News
http://thenewsdoctors.com/?p=550440
Interesting how these messages seem to get sent via airplane downings. Russia caused 2010 Smolensk air crash, in which Polish President Lech Kaczynski died, ahd their proxies shot down Flight MH17 in Ukraine. Perhaps this is NATO reminding them two can play at that game?
It is even more likely that the CIA took down both those flights at part of the neocon/neoliberal plan to restart the Cold War on the way to total war.
Proof?
Even Poles admitted error. Idiot President had history of drunk and dangerous interfering with crew.
MH17 evidence hidden and Malaysia shut out of investigation.
media dumb you down much?
The Poles at first blamed Russia as the crash accrued in Russia.
There was a previous instance where the president has forced the pilot to land in unsafe conditions.
However as the plane's departure point was in Poland, if there was sabotage who would have been able to do so more easily???
It is very likely that the plane simply crashed due to the weather. It is also possible that someone did decide to take him out.
He was definitely anti-Russian and also anti-German and was trying to cultivate better relationship with the US.
He was however a man of principle and not someone who could become a pawn. The plane crash killed a large percentage of his associates along with him as well as top brass of the military. If this was an assassination the list of suspects does not end with Russia. I would actually put Russia at the bottom of the list because they did not have much to gain from this even.
Is the idea that if you keep saying Russia (or proxies) shot down the Malaysian jet over and over we wont notice the distinct lack of evidence in support?
their proxies shot down Flight MH17 in Ukraine.
Not unless you want to call the Keiv government a proxy. The nose section was found riddled with, I think, 50mm bullet holes. That would have killed the pilots instantly so they didn't have the chance to radio. There were two Ukrainian planes in the vicinity known to be fitted with guns of the same caliber. You can't learn this stuff from the MSM.
It is clear that the US supplied the Turks the flight info with a wink to take down Russian planes.
Did the US think the Russians wouldn't figure out what the US did?
This leads to another possibility.
Since the US neocon/neoliberal lunatics in control of the US Deep State couldn't engineer a US/Israeli attack on Iran are they now planning to get Turkey and Iran at war with each other? It would draw in the alliances on each side and get their US war with Russia as well.
We must not underestimate these lunatics and their resolve for more war. They have successfully restarted the Cold War between East and West. They have caused death and destruction on a scale not seen since WW2 (it is greater than the Korean and Vietnam wars). Over four millions have perished since only 1990.
The US lunatics are not done digging the world into a lot more death, destruction, and chaos.
This is the webpage to track ships worldwide: http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ use it to tracks tankers going to Turkey ports to upload ISIS oil.
what is this "partners" bullshit?
It is because even within the stilted language of diplomacy, there is room for irony and satire.
++++
Carefully crafted and well thought out world-stage diplomatic-speak. Portray oneself as the ever-accomodating party, seeking only 'cooperation'. From a purely objective view, we can't say that it isn't an approach that reaps a certain geopolitical benefit, can we...?
I am sure that Volkodav can explain it much better than I, but in my conversations with Russians and Ukrainians I have heard them refer to people that they do business with as partners. So for example a car manufacturer would refer to a tyre or windscreen manufacturer as partner.
Sometimes when things get translated from one language to another the precision of meaning of words is lost.
"Don't cry me .... bitch slaped criminal putin"
:D ha ha ha
Idiot.
ZH: What possible outcome, accomplishment, or endgame would Turkey achieve by such a (contrived) gambit?
Russia is bombing the allys of the turks - likely turks among them.
Russia is bombing the oil headed toward turkey.
The us did not want russian involvement and did not show much interest in cooperating with the russian effort. Almost as if they wanted an incident.
Not to mention ombombers but is still hurting from the ukrain fiasco in which it was revealed that he overthrew a democratically elected government but then was thwarted in regime building and humiliated by his nato "allies"
There is something of a list.
Europe is probably better off cooperating with a compent partner.
The west reacts hastily and sloppily because they have a problem of comptence and ego.
One would hope and expect that putins response will be more considered.
Putin is winning in terms of displaying consistent and compitent behavior. Many players are swaying a bit in putins direction. He seems a capable leader.
We need leadersip to find our way out of this blood drenched mess we have created.
You'll know it when either Merkel gets the boot, or comes to a change of heart rather quickly. Germany remains the lynchpin in all this from the broad perspective. When they've had enough of State Department diktat, the geopolitical tide-of-opinion will shift, and with it, the grip of DC on Euro-Russian relations and the sphere of influence from a decrepit, dying empire.
Considering all the human shit that is filling Germany, that country will turn into a stinking toilet in a decade or two and lose it's industrial dominance as well as it scientific ability. The IQ of the invaders is not going to increase. The overall IQ of the nation will decrease. Those coming in will also not become disciplined as the Germans were.
Well this is escalating quickly:
http://www.moonofalabama.org
hmmm,
but did the US/NATO government do more than just give Turkey the flight plans?
- did the US government give a 'green light' for the attack?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/americas-wish-come-true-us-candidates-who-c...
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-dominated-nato-supports-turkish-aggressi...
http://www.globalresearch.ca/nato-commander-philip-breedlove-believes-wa...
From Pepe Escobar:
"as Putin and Hollande reached a consensus: there will be a barrage of air strikes against the fuel tanker truck convoys transporting stolen Syrian oil across Daesh-controlled territory on the way to Turkey.
There goes in flames the profitable racket of ‘Sultan’s’ son Bilal Erdogan, a.k.a. ‘Erdogan Mini Me’, one of three shareholders of marine transportation corporation BMZ.
Send in the Sukhois!
Putin delivered a sarcastic cruise missile as he said it was "theoretically possible" that Ankara didn’t know about stolen Syrian oil entering Turkish territory from all points Daesh, but he added that was hard to imagine.
So leaving nothing to the imagination, one of Russia’s S-400 AA missile defense systems is already on combat duty at the Hmeymim airbase, and another one is on the way.
The ‘Sultan’ has been warned. From now on Russia has three major priorities:
1. A de facto no-fly zone already in effect south of the Turkish-Syrian border enforced by the S-400s. Ankara is so scared it grounded even owls and crows.
2. Already in effect; Russia will hit – hard - anything that suspiciously moves on every transport corridor in and out of Turkey. Turkish "humanitarian" convoys – carrying, what else, weapons – were pulverized in Azaz, which is only five kilometers from the Turkish border. And truck distribution points were also bombed near Raqqa.
3. Already in effect; Russia massively bombing the whole wide region where CIA ops run a cash and weapon highway to the Free Syrian Army (FSA) and “innocent” Turkmen. Russia started carpet bombing the Jabal Turkmen area immediately after Russian pilot Lt. Col Oleg Pershin was rescued."
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/323634-putin-hollande-erdogan-isis/
I just got a 'psychological woodie'. so to speak.
It is now clear that
Turkish Grey Wolves Killed Pilot From Downed Russian JetThe fact that turkish citizens were involved in this effort should make one ask if this was setup! This also supports the fact that the Turkmen have been used by the Turkish islamists
The leader of this gourp of Grey Wolves is a Turkish Grey Wolf member, a pan-Turkic organisation responsible for atrocities as far away as China and Thailand, and known for their involvment in Chechen terrorism.
See http://www.horizonweekly.ca/news/details/77198
Grey Wolves and Assasination Attempt on Pope John Paul II:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Wolves_(organization)
Also, invasion and occupation of Cyprus.
It is now clear that
Turkish Grey Wolves Killed Pilot From Downed Russian JetThe fact that turkish citizens were involved in this effort should make one ask if this was setup! This also supports the fact that the Turkmen have been used by the Turkish islamists
The leader of this gourp of Grey Wolves is a Turkish Grey Wolf member, a pan-Turkic organisation responsible for atrocities as far away as China and Thailand, and known for their involvment in Chechen terrorism.
See http://www.horizonweekly.ca/news/details/77198
One rule for Turkey and another one for others:
"Six Turkish fighter jets violated Greek national air space in the northeastern Aegean Thursday, Greek defense officials said."
Turkey looks like a used piece of TP ny NA friend. US 1 : 0 Turkey
US objective of getting military response from RU and thereby a pretext to close Bosporus failed.
TR actions as described by Bondarev bring Turkey under UN GA definition of a Terrorist state and Agressor.
If, as claimed, US stood by in the process, then that is aiding and abetting terrorism.
Unintended consequences for US here - end of NATO once Bosporus is closed and establishment of Iran-Iraq-Syria-Russia full scale axis: such a realistic prospect that Israel is already running for new friends and opening diplomatic mission in UAE.
Putin is going to make it clear to Turkey that they are pals with the wrong side!
Putin's plan was successful when the moronic Deep State in the US took the bait and shot down a Russian jet.
It depends who you listen to and believe
As posted earlier, 2 pages back, it was a US op to figure out the Russian radar jamming tech
Sounds believable
So that would mean the US made a deal with Turkey
It happens on both sides ya know.
Dead Russians, Dead aircraft, Dead helicopter, Dead pipeline through Turkey.
Another Stunning Win for Putin!
Meanwhile, the ghosts of Vietnam beckon him forward. Send us more ships, tovarisch. More planes. More troops. Final victory over al-Charlie is just around the corner.
Personally, and this is just a guess, mind you, I assume that Turkey has indeed warned Russia ten times or more about border infractions.
Not in this particular instance but probably as an ongoing complaint over the last month or so.
When the Turkish dictator got tired of the Russian dictator flying over his fiefdom, he set up a little surprise for the next unlucky guys whose number came up.
Doesn't matter which side of the line they were on. It wasn't about them or where they were. This was an old-fashioned exchange of geopolitical messages and Erdogan cares as little about the peons he snuffed as does Putin. Its a war. People die. Even in a "let's pretend it's not a war" Vietnam-style action. Nazi Thug Empire 1 arguing with Nazi Thug Empire 2 while pretending that everything is just ducky and all civilized and shit.
The next act could well be a Russian payback shootdown. Followed by a sudden surge of MANPADS into northern Syria. That's how these things get rolling. One bitch slap at a time. If Putin is as smart as you guys think he is, he'll let it ride and stay focused on the mission critical aspects of his expedition.
And lots of dead U.S., Turkish, Saudi and Israeli backed terrorist mercs.
The U.S. And Israel are directly supporting al qaeda and isis and you never seem to comment on *that*.
Why the oversight?
And thats why I said before, you have to strike heart(US) or they bleed you out.
Here you will find a list of BMZ Group Shipping Company tankers track them using this sites 'marinetraffic':
*There should be more but I cannot do all the work for you guys...it's up to all of you to expose those ISIS supporters.
me or you, thanks & you are right of course. ;-)
US is led by a man with no brains.
A monkey would have done much better than him.
How often do people need to have this explained to them?
Obama is a front man, as is Cameron, Merkel and the rest of the West's leaders.
Those who really hold power observe one overwhelming strategic principle, as so brilliantly explained by Monty Python in this sketch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifmRgQX82O4
If putin had a virtual ass, it would be chafed and red now from all kissing and liking that is going on non stop on this site.
Drugs and American grants are destroying your brain.
And you forgot to say that Putin eats children and drink the blood of babies.
Unfortunately, this statement by Bondarev is completely irrelevant. We already know from previous statements that at least one of the two versions of this event, the Turkish one or the Russian one, is a complete lie. The two versions are so different from each other that there's really no possibility that they're just different spins on the same actual facts. We know that at least one side has fabricated evidence, since different pieces of evidence contradict one another.
This being the case, everything either side says from now on becomes completely irrelevant. As outsiders, we have no means of exposing the lies. The only thing that could shed some light on the matter would be new input from independent third party investigations. But where you're going to find anyone independent in this whole mess is beyond me. So basically, we'll never know. We might as well forget about it and just watch how it plays out.
well, thanks for advertising how easily you are distracted by irrelevances.
Even if the Turkish version was 100% the correct one, you think that this somehow exonerates them in the shooting down of the Russian plane?
That you are so clueless I do not care. That so many people are distracted so easily by flashing lights and cartoons as you are, is what alarms me.
Who Said It? "A Short-Term Border Violation Can Never Be A Pretext For An Attack"
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-25/who-said-it-short-term-border-v...
Turkey for some unknown reason hasn't made its airspace (not even the border areas) available to the international coalition which is defending humanity against the organ-eating head-choppers who freely cross the border back and forth between Turkey and Syria with fresh munitions and instructions. Oh wait...
Let's pick apart what we do know.
The Turkish MoD itself says the SU-24 was in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds. And human intelligence tells us that part of that 17 seconds was spent GETTING OUT OF TURKISH AIRSPACE.
We know that the Russian jet crashed in Syria, which proves it was shot when it was departing Turkey (if in fact it was ever there) and may have been in Syrian airspace when the Turkish jet pulled the trigger.
Clearly, the Turkish pilot was acting on orders from Ankara.
And Ankara got intelligence of the whereabouts of the Russian aircraft from the Pentagon.
Oh, we're going to watch how it plays out.
But I'm sure no body besides you will forget about it.
There is no question on this -none - that it was a premeditated attack likely
Greenlit ahead of time by O'bombya or one of his merry men. The plane was probably not warned, certainly not ten times in 17 seconds, and it is clear the turkish birds scrambled well before the russian jets were near turkey's self declared air buffer zone against, mind you, takfiri mercs who dont even have a puddle jumper...
That is, the Russian jet was certainly no threat to Turkey at all and was probably never in actual turkish airspace. It was a hit and they hoped Putin would hit back, and as the Israelis love to do, point to the *retaliation* and cry that it is 'aggression' which must be met with firm resolve, overwhelming force, and dead working class kids.
Funny how Treasury just couldnt track isis oil sales, right? Just like our sata and spies couldnt find isis convoys or track comm centers, huh?
The “ISIS Rockefellers”: How Islamic State Oil Flows to Israel
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-isis-rockefellers-how-islamic-state-oil...
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/10/12/us-caught-faking-it-in-syria/
The story behind this drivel is that the Russian government needs a credible excuse as to why their Su24 was so easily shot down like a tin can by Turkish pilots. And the Russian air force needs an explanation as to how command and control was so incompetent that it got lost in Turkish airspace and ignored multiple warnings.
Their solution: It was an ambush! A coordinated ambush no less.
And all that Putin can do is call names like “backstabber”. Just another insecure clown like Obama.
NATO is laughing and there is nothing Putin can do but see the Bosporus closed.
Meanwhile, Assad will survive, and Qatar will find its land pipeline route to Europe, cut off by the Shi-ite crescent. Will NATO be laughing and slapping each other on the back about that too?
'Over my dead body!' answer of Russia.
See this what got russians boats on the ground of sorya.If you think this ass holes will succeed in doing pipline from quatar,iraq or saudi to Turki and Europa by cutting Russia, you are severly mistaken.
If you are say in a shoes of Russia what will you do before seeing this happen let alone you have genious geo poletical check mate players in your yard?
This becoming hard for NATO and its cercus as it has been back in ukrain.This is what making 'them' anger and resort to play bad game if they can trap the bear in getting to the big war.
And all that Putin can do is call names like “backstabber”. Just another insecure clown like Obama.
That's a childish interpretation of events. For the price of one pilot and one old plane, Turkey exposed itself as the source of ISIS revenue and a consumer of stolen Syrian oil. It turned Russia into an innocent victim and gave it the justification it needed to seal off the border between Syria and Turkey. It's open season now on any Turkish plane that enters Syria.
Who's not involved in those sick games? Russia is there to stop a nat gas pipeline. It doesn't matter who dies to any of these bastards.
That's a pretty cold assessment. Syrian and Russian relations go as far back as the late forties when Syria was being threatened by the Israelis. Russia has always stood by them. Of course it is not selfless on the part of the Russians. The relationship is mutual beneficial. The destruction to Syria is sickening. In this case, I don't know how you can put the Russians on the same plane with the US gang.
I'm an American, BTW. The same gang is destroying this country too.
In the late 40s Israel was a hell of a lot weaker than it is now. It also had excellent relations with the soviet union. It was believed it would become another soviet satellite, manned as it was with communist jews (all jews turn communist during their bad times and switch into oligarch mode once they have three consecutive meals in a single day).
Does not matter why Russia is there. Unlike everyone else, Russia is there with invitation of the Syrian government.
Turkey on the other hand has comitted an act of war against Syria and now against Russia.
While the closing of the Bosphorus would be a setback for Russia -- and HIGHLY iLLEGAL -- it would probably cost Turkey its custodial position as watchman of the Black Sea. And if any of Russia's assets were damaged, cost Istanbul the Bosphorus Bridge, requiring ferry service from the European side of the city to the Asian side
Russia's Black Sea fleet would still control that sea, while Georgia, Romania, Ukraine and Bulgaria would have to make do. Except for its fleet, most of Russia's naval assets will have moved to Tartus and, what do you know, Latakia.
The Turks them selves told NATO that the SU-24 was in their airspace for only 17 seconds.
How many times have you reached into your refrigerator for a beer and taken more time than that to remember what you were doing there?
********************************
by the way, here's what Putin got from the downing. No more sharing sorties with the US. The unimpeachable right to bring into Syria as many batteries of S-400s as Putin wants. The right to double the number of fightera and/or bombers as Putin wants. The right of Assad to declare no a No-Fly zone, first over western Syria, and then over all of Syria. More troops, to make up for the murdered Russians.
Oh, and lest I forget, Putin now has the right to treat the moderate rebels like the murderous scum they are!
Hardly Obama bumbling.
Egad.
I just remembered about a subway or rail tunnel under the Bosphorus, so if the bridge came down there still would be communication between the two Istanbuls.
I suppose Russia will have to flood the tunnel..
.
"And all that Putin can do is call names like “backstabber”."
You simply don't know what is happening.
Turkey has already lost about a million of Russian tourists a year, Russian food market, Russian textile market, is loosing Russian construction and production market. Turkish small busynesses are been kicking out Russia right now. Gas supply is endangered (more than a half of total supply), building of nuclear power plant is frozen.
And these are only initial economical consequences of being a backstabber in Putin's eyes.
But since this was a planned military provocation, not a mistake, and Erdogan's recent behavior confirms it, the war is coming. The US can't allow capturing of Aleppo by Syrians, while can't allow directly armed clashing with us (no one wants to be burned in nuclear fire), so it plays Turkish card (Erdogan lately has become very hysterical and ready for reckless acts seeing as we're kicking asses of his head-cutters in Northern Syria and ruining illegal oil busyness of his relatives).
The plane was unescorted and on a familiar bombing run - the jury is also still out about the location but it looks like the Russian plane was only briefly in Turkish airspace if at all.
And there was likely no warning at all as the turkish jets were on intercept well before any alleged infraction.
Closing the Bosp. Is an act of war which Erdogan for all his bluster would not dare.
I guess nato will try try again to force russia to react then blame their 'aggression' for the need for moar war.
I bet youre the sort of asshole who doesnt think isis is a proxy force for the us and its allies, right?
Dumb fuck.
Downing the Russian bomber was also an act of war.
It is true that the two different versions of this story differ in important details . it is especially important where the SU-24 and the F-16 were located when the shootdown took place.
Some things seem clear. it is very unlikely that the Turkish aircraft would be in the right place to intercept the Russians ... by accident. It also stretches the imagination to believe that Islamic guerrillas would happen to have exactly the right weapon to destroy a Russian helicopter at the right time. how would they know that a rescue was going to occur? how would they know the location???
If the Russian claim is correct - and this is not verified - then a NATO aircraft entered Syrian airspace and shot down a Russian plane. And the Russian plane was not attacking Turkish territory ... actually the bombing paths were clearly in Syria. This type of incident - NOT VERIFIED - would be a very serious escalation between NATO and Russia. The start of a real Cold War II.
It is possible that there is honest disagreement between the map positions of the Syria-Tutkey border.
But you really have to believe in an incredible series of coincidences, if you accept the account by Turkey.
+100 Obummer's reign is nothing more than a "incredible series of coincidences" as well. LOL.
Another nation learns that the USSA/EU/NATO/etc... can not be trusted.
Never forgive. Never forget.
With Russia pounding American funded mercenaries in Syria i wouldn't put it past the US egging the Turks on to shoot down the Russian fighter. The upside for the Russians in this incident is Turkey is effectively barred now from using it's air power within Syria to bomb the Kurds; if they try it, Russian S-400s will knock their F-16s out of the sky.
There is no doubt the Turkish F-16 was vectored into position and given the clearance to shoot by an AWACS aircraft, almost certainly a US aircraft. So who is authorizing this murderous nonsense? Barry wouldn't know an AWACS from a golf cart so he is out of the loop. Who? Whoever the Dr. Strangelove/Henry Kissinger loon is they need to be removed from whatever position they have before things get really out of hand. Not to mention prosecuted for a lengthy list of international crimes.
I too suspected the AWACS option since the incidence.
But no matter, as the Russian response was a Chess move, compared to the Checkers move by the DOD and its Useful Fool: Erdogan.
Those lousy low life bastards, and defenders of ISIS. Turkey, this is on your record from now until forever. Or when Russia decides to end your miserable useless criminal existence.
Its not surprising that the West would try to respond to Russian bombing of 'moderate' Syrian rebels - supported by the US.
but still, its a heck of a deal if an F-16 dives over the border between Turkey and Syria and shoots down a Russian plane inside Syrian airspace. thats what the Russian Air Force is alleging. the Russians must have checked the nav data from their own aircraft very closely. there were two SU-24's flying together. so the Russian Air Force has all the navigation data from the plane that survived. they know the exact flight path. its all on GPS.
The problem for Western Governments is that the US public is highly skeptical that a "moderate jihadist" exists in Syria, or anywhere else in Islam.
And Turkey is the Toilet Bowl of NATO.
Actually, not GPS. GLONASS to be more precise.
And note to GPS users here in the USA: When our Federal Government decides to turn SA back on (Selective Availability), good luck using any of your GPS devices to get anywhere. It will be SHUT OFF.
Oh--except for the fact that Homeland and NSA will be able to track your phones and use GPS at will.
I like good old paper maps. The batteries last much longer in them.
Here's an interesting article on the subject from the New York Times that provides a lot of historical background on this incident, some of which I did not know before reading it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/26/world/europe/turkey-russia-fighter-jet...
What particularly struck me about it was the similarities between Erdogan and Putin with regards to protecting their own people's diaspora in bordering regions technically beyond their own national responsibilities.
It also got me to thinking about how both men have been moving to bring the media in their respective countries utterly under their own personal control while maintaining a semblance of objectivity to careless observers.
Both men have also been big proponents of changing their countries' constitutions when it stands in the way of what they personally think is best for everyone.
Which, in turn, leads me to realize that Putin is actually Erdogan's chosen role model with regards to the aggrandizement of power.
This is inane gibberish from the Israel Firster contingent.
Funny how you never analyze Israel's narcissistic, dissembling leader or his psychopathy at all though.
Nope - job one is bash putin while ignoring every aggressive act by the us, nato, or Israel.
Making you a fucking troll, innit?
No, actually Job One, as you call it, is to point out the fact that ALL GOVERNMENTS EVERYWHERE are pursuing the same goals, using the same methods, and leading the world steadily towards doom-- which I define as the demise of human freedom and the return of ancient stratified societies where the only thing that will matter is who your parents are, what caste they belong to, and which king you are owned by. I have no more desire to be owned by King Putin than I do to be owned by King Netanyahu or King Obama or King Merkel or even King You.
To root madly for Government A as your champion even as you boo and hiss the same tactics being used by Government B is, to me, the height of folly.
So I hereby invite you to agree or disagree with the following statement:
As I state in virtually every political post I make, ALL GOVERNMENTS EVERYWHERE are out-of-control oligarchies that are sucking their citizens dry, rewarding their friends and family, and solidifying their own personal grip on power in hopes of making it permanent even at the cost of ruining the fortunes of those they are pledged to succor and defend.
That list includes Israel, Russia, Turkey, Syria, China, the United States, Palestine, the United Kingdom, the EU, Slovakia, Saudi Arabia, Luxembourg, Singapore, San Marino, Fiji, Japan, North and South Korea, the Marshall Islands and everyone down to the local mayor, city council and dog catcher everywhere. I apologize to any rapacious proto-oligarchs who may have been inadvertently slighted by this by-no-means complete list.
I am an American. I want the government to keep the roads plowed, the mail delivered, provide an honest set of weights, measures, and monetary instruments, and generally be paid enough to make a decent living but not as much as they could by working for themselves and by no means giving them the opportunity of wielding power that allows them and their family to become multi-generational gazillionaires and power brokers. I want that system to spread worldwide so that everyone can benefit and there will be no need for the nation-state arguments which are really just the collision of lusts between one crime syndicate and another.
You will never have peace and freedom so long as you promote the cause of some individual champion and invest them with the extraordinary opportunity of disregarding the rules in the interest of doing what they regard as "good".
What part of that is so hard for you to grasp? What part of it do you not agree with? The part that says Russia is as morally reprehensible as Israel, obviously. You have a champion. You are counting on Putin to save you and then not turn on you. I do not see the same set of angel's wings on his back that you perceive. He is a dues-paying member of the club, playing the same game as everyone else. Away with them all. Period. ZZA
still playing checkers, tarabel?
We moved on to chess some time ago.
I love it when people complain mightily about secret aristocracies and then sedulously ape their mannerisms.
I'll stick with the common run of humanity, although personally I was always more a fan of Stratego than chess or checkers. I liked the opportunity to craft my own deployment rather than be bound up in the straitjacket of someone else's concept of how the pieces will unalterably be deployed.
what then, tarabel?
and these secret elites force an unconverted society and its leader into a corner. Out of which the only way they can avoid entrapment and enslavement is "The Samson Option."
Clearly when the Neocons were inching forward to Russia's western border, Russia was busy developing the speed and accuracy of its missiles.
And when the US/NATO were developing Missile Defensive Shield to shoot Russia's missile out of the sky, Russia was busy designing missile that didn't fly in the air, but were propelled underwater to the shores of its adversary. Near where most of her population lived.
And as you know, America has 20,000 km of coast line, not the most, but plenty for the world's only superpower.
What you wrote here is highly agreeable, however all nearly all your posts take a position of attack against what Russia does, no matter if they are wrong or right.
A controlled media outlet explains how dictators seek to control the media while maintaining a semblance of objectivity to careless observers?
And you came to the same conclusions as the ones they laid out for you. Exceptional!
Next, do a comparison of Erdogan and the USA and lets see if you can realize another chosen role model of power aggrandizement... media control, protecting diaspora beyond national responsibilities, constitutional shenanigans - its all there. Hell, the ISIS Turkey oil scam looks exactly like the CIA Afganistan opium scam.
It was Erdogan who shot down a Russian jet, not the other way round. More: ... Putin has shown extraordinary restraint since that incident.
One can usually draw parallels between any two individuals but what does that really tell us?: That ruling elites across the world have much in common. But they also have distinct differences. eg: Hitler and Mussolini were both described as "fascists", but whereas Hitler got to despise jews because of their treachery in trying to destroy Germany, Mussolini was surrounded by them and 35% of Italian jews joined his fascist party. In my opinion most - but not all - of the fascists ranting their heads off nowadays are closer to the Mussolini model than Hitler. HRH Tony Blair is one example. Jews have a long history of association with fascism and Marxism.
Thanks to the NYT for stating the obvious...
Yeah, and both men were in their countries' intelligence agencies.
Oh, wait...
Go back to sleep, sweet princess.
May flights of lox and bagels sing thee to thy rest
The Jew Jerk Times??? You cannot be serious.
Russia, please sell that system to Bulgaria. With a neighbor like Turkey who needs enemies?
But first, help us get rid of the traitors in power.
"Russia, please sell that system to Bulgaria."
Sorry, we don't sell that systems to America's prostitutes in Bulgarian government.
Very right, prostitutes are in power in Bulgaria, and no matter how many times the street demonstrations take them out somehow new ones replaces them.
May God help Bulgarians elect good and smart leaders.
Enogh of western agents screwing Bulgaria.
Recep is a murderer - of Syrians, of Iraqis, of Parisians, of Russians and Americans.
His regime is the one that needs to be changed.
...AND of Turks.
Remember Stalingrad? My money is with the Russians. Hopefully, they will rub the nose of POTUS in the shit he created. How long do we tolerate the ass hole occupying the White House?
Remember the Empire of Evil? My money is on the Americans. Not on the US government, but on the Americans. 3-0 in world wars.
Russia-- Lost WWI (surrendered to Germany) even though it was on the winning side. 0-1
Russia-- Got rid of Hitler in WWII. Got to keep Stalin. 0-2
Russia-- Fell apart without a fight in the Cold War (WWIII) despite having the most powerful military the world has ever seen. 0-3
Away with all the oligarchs in every land everywhere. Let freedom ring.
In all 3 instances you equate Russia with the Soviet Union.
Russia was but the largest of its republics.
Boo Hoo, poor Pootin.
http://beforeitsnews.com/global-unrest/2015/11/cowardly-isiss-terrorist-...