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He Lived Through Hyperinflation, Devaluation And Confiscation: This Is His Advice
Nearly four months ago, when bitcoin was still languishing in the low $200s, we explained why in the post-Yuan devaluation regime, where all Chinese capital outflows are now scrutizined through a microscope, bitcoin will inevitably see substantial appreciation as the local population scrambles to transfer funds out of China and into more traditional end markets, such as the US, Canada and western Europe, using such still largely unregulated mediums as bitcoin and other digital currencies.
Why not gold?
This is what we said in the beginning of September: "China's propensity for gold is well-known. We would not be surprised to see a surge of gold imports into China, only instead of going to the traditional Commodity Financing Deals we have written extensively about before, where gold is merely a commodity used to fund domestic carry trades, it ends up in domestic households. However, while gold has historically been the best store of value in history and has outlasted every currency known to man, it is problematic when it comes to transferring funds in and out of a nation - it tends to show up quite distinctly on X-rays."
Which is why we would not be surprised to see another push higher in the value of bitcoin: it was earlier this summer when the digital currency, which can bypass capital controls and national borders with the click of a button, surged on Grexit concerns and fears a Drachma return would crush the savings of an entire nation. Since then, BTC has dropped (in no small part as a result of the previously documented "forking" with Bitcoin XT), however if a few hundred million Chinese decide that the time has come to use bitcoin as the capital controls bypassing currency of choice, and decide to invest even a tiny fraction of the $22 trillion in Chinese deposits.
Two months after we wrote this, bitcoin more than doubled to $500 before retracing some of its recent gains, and has resumed its rise again.
Why? This time the answer is Argentina, where as we reported two days ago, the new president admitted that "there are no more dollars in rhe central bank" which means that the days of the country's capital controls are numbered, and because as Citi said president-elect Macri wants to unify the official and parallel exchange rates (~9.60 and 15.50 ARS/USD, respectively) that will entail a substantial devaluation. Just how overvalued is the peso, you ask? "Grossly."
In other words, another major currency collapse is in store for Argentina, its fourth major one in recent decades.
It also means that as yet another country is about to take currency warfare to the next level, bitcoin is posed for another sharp move higher (even as Chinese demand for the fiat alternative continues to grow).
And since the topic is Argentina's upcoming latest currency collapse, courtesy of Raoul Pal's RealVision, here is an interview by Dan Morehead, Ex-Head of Macro Trading at Tiger Management and now CEO of Bitcoin investment firm Pantera with Wences Casares, an Argentinian Founder of Xapo and one of the pioneers of bitcoin.
Wences, an Argentinian, has seen his family's wealth evaporate not once, not twice but three times due to hyperinflation, devalulation and confiscation and that has led him to bitcoin. His driving philosophy: "There are more people in the world who need a currency they can trust, than there are people in the world who can trust their currency."
More from the person who knows all about currency destruction in the excerpt below...
... and as usual, the full interview can be seen on the RealVision website (which boasts dozens of other interviews with financial luminaries) and where a bitcoin subscription discount is available.
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Meh
OMFGAWD IT'S BITCOIN ON ZH!!!!!!!
and the difference between bitcoin and fiat is ?
although Blythe Masters does say we can trust it.
Somebody at ZH must own a load of bitcoin.
Cause a digital currency is a disaster in the making.
Which is why any block-chain cypto-currency (and there appears to be more every day) that is actively, provably backed by precious metals will go a long way to solving the problems of both the modern tyrannical state and (their) fiat currenc(ies)
as I wrote 2.5 years ago
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-05-12/visualizing-how-bitcoin-transac...
Look ZH, I love how BC uses 256bit PKI with salted hash to regulate and restrict the number of coins mined. I love how buyers and sellers can agree on it as a medium of exchange to work together without 3rd party interference. I get it. But here's the thing that prevents me from biting: it ain't backed by anything. And what the fuck is Keiser talking about when he says there will never be a competitor to bitcoin? Here's a novel idea: Anonymous puts a little time into understanding as much about banking and finance as they understand about scientology. As this understanding spreads between their more entrepreneurial members, say an offshoot, sub group that happens to work in certificate / key store management, they develop a similar algorithm, only they say, "look, we developed a similar model called 'crypto coin' won't just allow this to denominate in fiat that the 'cryptocoin' marketplace will back, we will tie specifically to gold and silver. The algo will ultimately mine 15x more silver colored cryptocoins than th gold colored ones, to represent what exists naturally in the crust of the earth. They then correspondingly create their own exchange (even say a virtual exchange represented by members), collectively owned by all cryptocoin holders. The balance of actual metal in the exchange is verified on a quarterly basis by the top 100 cryptocoin holders to verify that they maintain the same amount of precious metals in the exchange, as there exists cryptocoins in circulation. The crypto coins can then be redeemed in gold and / or silver. The same concept could be applied to oil contracts, shares in organic beef farms, or stock at company xyz. Till I see the next evolution cryptographic digital currency, I will keep hitting the coin shop and stacking.
Intrinsic value is one thing. Tangible value is another. Combining the two is key
Observation: The bitcoin buyers / holders appear to be vitriolic toward those that prefer PM's. Understand that we are on the same side of this argument. Don't lose sight of the bigger picture; that we all now recognize how the monopolized private issuance of currency and credit has led us to this point
The problem with backing a crypto currency with gold is that creates counterparty risk. You still require a centralised authaurity to confirm the gold actually exists.
The problem with a cryptocurrency based on rewarding anonymous nodes with a handout in return for their processing power is you have no control over them, what version they're using, and what they're doing.
This guy did everything he was supposed to, provided the network processing power...oops except he got the reward without processing *any* transactions, lol:
https://blockchain.info/block/000000000000000006aec698db6d6b44139d11dc7f...
And ? The block shows there was still massive PoW which means the equipment was still actively securing the network. Mining does 2 things: it processes transactions AND it secures the network. Technically some blocks may be empty , that's built into the algorithm.
You can never put your trust in a currency, because it will always be dependent upon men (and thus, their honesty). No, we need to put our trust back into real MONEY - that is - a vehicle of exchange and inherent value that cannot be manipulated by men. Currency is necessary, yes... but its foundation must be something REAL. That is the level of education (not hard to grasp) that must be disseminated to the masses.
Value is just imagination by men. There is no currency defined by physics.
I disagree. The physical determinant of anything is its quantity in nature. The rarer something is... the more valuable it is. This is, of course, a statement of generality, but it usually rings true. Just my opinion.
The bitcoin network is now the world's most powerful supercomputer. It is estimated to be alteast 100000 x more powerful than all of the world's other supercomputers *combined* , it is cryptographically secure and distributed across the entire planet so no jurisdiction could ever take control of it - if you could not trust that system - then what could you trust exactly for high speed global payments ?
Is he the same Señor Wences who used to appear on the Ed Sullivan show?
Getting gold out of China is easy. Simply pack it in a container marked "toys" and ship it to a fake store in Los Angeles.
Jamie Dimon says that when Bitcoin becomes a threat to Fiat the Government will ban it. Unfortunately, whilst a total asshole, he is an asshole in a position to understand Government thinking.
Moore's law makes digital currency a threat to fiat no matter what. Buh Bye BC.
Some governments may try to do that. Some people wanted to ban automobiles when they were first introduced. Thankfully, the US didn't, so a few decades later when we had to go to war, we did so in motor vehicles rather than on horseback.
In a confrontation between tanks and soldiers on horseback, I'll put my money on the tanks every time.
The countries that don't ban digital currencies will be the centers of wealth in the future, and thoses that stick to debt based fiat won't. So if some governments want to speed up their descent into irrelevance and poverty, who am I to advise them otherwise?
I hope he gets throat cancer...
again.
… who’s Ed Sullivan?
"Is he the same Señor Wences who used to appear on the Ed Sullivan show?"
Perhaps a grandson.
As to bitcoin, honestly, I'm too dense to understand it. Where does one go to actually learn about it and how to store/use/trade in it?
Not that I'd give up my minor stash of hard currency, but I wouldn't mind an alternative. However, I'm not putting cash into something I simply don't understand.
Here's pretty comprehensive description:
http://www.michaelnielsen.org/ddi/how-the-bitcoin-protocol-actually-works/
A lot has been written and aggregated at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page both as overview and in detail. You can start by reading some of the articles under 'Topic central' and go from there.
Or just do a web search for articles/videos/podcasts, and you will find the topics of interest covered in all sorts of styles and perspectives.
There are a few good documentaries out there also. Virtual money seems to be a tougher conceptual leap than virtual books, virtual songs, virtual photographs, etc., and some of the most well-known proponents of Bitcoin were skeptical of it when they first encountered it. I was too - putting trust in something you don't yet understand is never a good idea.
But once it 'clicks' and you start to see past its utility as money and start to see how it can be used to disintermediate all sorts of systems of control that are parasitic to our economy, you may find that you can't stop talking about it!
Not true. There are rarer materials with even better properties than e.g. gold, but they are priced much lower. Gold is a cultural thing with long tradition, that makes up a significant part of its value.
Then honesty is the most valuable currency.
But only COMPETITION can maintain honesty, particularly when it comes to money.
coinhead says what is valuable. If stupid people don't want to use Bitcoin, and then... stupid people do not get rich... that is fine with coinhead.
Bitcoin is just another example of a "currency" based entirely on trust. There is no inherent value. This is why it can never be referred to as real "money". Real money stands alone and carries its value with it. Bitcoin works fine as long as there is "trust' in its honest valuation. This kind of medium of exchange will, however, always deteriorate as men find ways to corrupt and misuse its system.
There isn't an Asset or Currency that is NOT based on 'Trust':
You show your trust in it when you acquire it, keep it, trade it or sell it.
So you'll need to use or add some more Attributes, to give your story 'legs'.
All currencies are based on trust. It is trust which gives it value , including gold. As bitcoin proves it can be trusted more and more over time it's value will continue to rise as a reflection of that trust.
Guys... you miss the point. There will always be value in rarity. This is why pieces of art (one of a kind) and rare coins will ALWAYS be coveted. They are rare. Their value has nothing to do with trust. So, when it comes to currency... for the sake of maximum stability, there must be something of true intrinsic value underlying it. That's all I'm saying.
In the future certain bitcoiins may carry a premiu. I can easily see the very early mined bitcoins being coveted , the famous 'pizza' bitcoins will definitely be worth more , plus any that have been owned by famous people.
BTW , there is no such thing as 'intrinsic value' that is a myth , all value is subjective , value is held as a perception in the mind of the beholder , try offering a monkey a banana or a pallet load of gold bullion , see what he chooses - what he 'trusts' and you may get the idea.
CT... Sorry, but I don't look through the lens of a monkey. I try to view things through the eyes of men. We are sentient beings with an assumed ability to reason. To a monkey, a banana is a very valuable piece of matter. To him, it means its consumption will allow another day of existence. Men have the foresight to understand that TRADE is essential to their existence. And trade in our modern world is dependent upon an honest medium of exchange of goods or services. Yes... "intrinsic value" may be subjective... but in order to have a stable monetary trading system, there HAS to be an underlying knowledge of the bedrock anchor's true value. Whatever the anchor is (commodities, metals, labor, etc...) it must be something the world agrees is precious. "Precious" is defined as something rare, unique or otherwise solidly reliable. This definition is not pretend, but actual.
Continue with your premise. Your logic stopped halfway. What does the world consider precious today? Go on, you can do it.
PS. Here is hint: it's not metals.
Bach, which has more "true intrinsic value," an expensive TI desk calculator or a free app on your phone with many more features?
Virtualization is what we do. If there's one trend you can count on, it's that once it's possible for us to virtualize something, we will. Because virtualization, done well, leads to increases in efficiency and utility. And this trend predates the digital age, e.g. cars are 'virtual' horses, writing is 'virtual' speech, etc.
Have you seen that 1990's Radio Shack ad/meme? The one that shows a whole page of physical devices which are now all included in a smart phone running an assortment of 'apps' with far less cost, and far more capability, than that page full of portable CD players, Tandy computers, and video cameras?
The hurdle that a lot of people (including me) have trouble getting over is that they think 'money' is some special case, but if you really sit down and think about it, I think you'll find that you'll have trouble saying why it deserves to obey different rules from the products that we commonly exchange money for.
Cryptocurrencies are virtual money and virtual stores of value, but when you see the word 'virtual' instead of mentally translating that as 'fake,' try translating it instead as 'flexible and convenient.'
The calculator on your phone isn't fake, right? It's just virtual, and it gives you the ability to do things that you couldn't do with the physical analog. In the same way, the money on my phone isn't 'fake' either - it's just virtual and more flexible than the physical cash in my wallet.
Calculator apps on the iPhone don't need to be 'backed' by physical TI calculators sitting in a vault somewhere, right? So why does a virtual currency need to be 'backed' by anything other than the digital infrastructure on which it runs?
Currency 'backing' is a trust issue. You trust that an issuing authority isn't debasing the currency by issuing more of it than the equivalent value of precious metal that (once) backed it. Crypto currencies don't require that same sort of trust element, because the evidence of scarcity is within the code as well as the distributed self-interest of the people who run that code to support the network.
I played Ultima Online back in 1998 and helped develop it. If you don't know what it is then go research MMORPG. I agree BL. It will take time to have the masses catch up with the gamer mentaality. Life itself is a game. In Ultima Online I used a glitch in the game to multiply little stacks of gold bullion 60,000 gold coins every night as servers went down, i.e. a bunch of little pixels that people would buy on eBay etc, online for real cash. Bitcoin can't be duped and that is the inherent beauty of it unlike the games gold or fiat petro dollars out of this air. Had everyone known the hack in the game except me and a few people the developers would have fixed the bug to stop us from duping and if they hadnt and everyone in the game could dupe whatever amount they needed the price on rare items would have sky rocketed. Open you mind to the future of money. I experienced the power of digital currency back in 1998 and made a very good living selling digital currency so others inside the game could buy real estate, horses, food etc.
Am familiar. I've lived in Austin a few times (where Garriott is pretty well known) and used to play Ultima II and III on the library computer when I was a kid.
The sort of glitch that you found is a real reason to worry about crypto's - no one can be 100% sure that a similar bug either hasn't yet been found or won't be introduced by a poorly tested patch in the future, but since I know that fiat has an inflation/debasement 'bug' that we can't get rid of, even though we know about it, I'm more comfortable trusting the self-interest of the developers, miners, and users of something like Bitcoin.
Something of REAL value doesn't have any need for "trust". It is valuable because it is rare. Why can't people understand this simple premise? Its "preciousness" is based entirely upon its quantity in nature.
I disagree. It's demand and limited supply that give things value. If you have a limited supply of something that no one wants, it will be worthless.
Had Marx simply taken a shovel to his back yard, dug a hole, and observe therein how much value he produced through his own labor, he might have actually learned something real about both. And we may have been spared his followers.
One of the biggest screwups is to go outside of economics, to physics for example, in a futile effort to define intrinsic economic value.
You should read the article.
Bitcoin is a currency that works if you want to leave the country.
1. Most don't want to leave
2. Most won't be able to leave.
And when that sinks in, they'll realize that it's crap.
Also, bitcoin is nothing, not even air. And you still need a bank account to withdraw it because when the shit hits the fan, those very few bitcoin tellers worldwide will be gone in a second. Remember, it's a global crisis which you also don't seem to understand.
When the shit hits the fan, you need something you can burry underground untill you can use it. Nothing and nobody will be able to tough it untill you decide.
Bitcoin? If governments block the sites, it's all gone. If govenrment hack is again, and I say again as they already did it, it's all gone.
You are part of the number of people who simply don't understand what bitcoin is.
You think it's an investment that will make you rich...
Bitcoin is something - it's an idea based on math. An idea that we don't need permission from anyone to transact with one another securely. In short, it's a better idea about money, expressed in the language of mathematics and cryptography. And if you look to history, good ideas are the things that change the world.
Taking down Bitcoin isn't as simple as blocking a few web sites. To really take it down, you'd have to shut down the Internet globally and keep it shut down. Any government doing that would be commiting economic and political suicide, and so the chances of all of them doing that are extremely remote.
Actually there is a quantity that represents value in physics: entropy. Only life can reduce entropy (create order and complexity) but at a cost: the expenditure of work using energy. Thus, ultimately, energy enables life. Even the planet itself reduces entropy by taking in visible photons and because of energy balance returning many more IR photons to space. This increases the entropy of space at the expense of reducing the entropy of the earth (you know all those multicelled organisms such as plants, animals etc based upon visible sunlight). Complexity is the end result. Thus, physics would define the currency of the universe as energy. And, of course, in the long run the universe will suffer a heat death when we run out of "free" energy.
Agreed. Though I'd say that gravity creates local entropy reductions as well, and without that boot strap, it would be tough for life to appear without stars or planets.
The miners will assure the utility, otherwise their reward would become worthless. If you look at the timestamp, you see that the previous block was mined just 50 seconds before and it was not intention but pure coincidence that the next block was found within such short time.
...exactly. Remember what happened to "Bitgold" or whatever? Teh moment you "back" a currency they will just blow you up, steal everything or throw you in prison.
Bingo. Same problem with banking as always. Mr. Bitcoin banker can do fractional reserve banking too. It all comes down to who you can trust.
Please explain? How could bitcoin be used in a fractional reserve scheme?
I think he's talking about bitgold, not bitcoin. The only way to use bitcoin that way would be to use it as the reserve and issue loans in a different currency ("LoanCoin"), fractionally backed by bitcoin holdings.
I think I have never smoked salted hash.
Can you catch a buzz?
"But here's the thing that prevents me from biting: it ain't backed by anything"
currency being "backed" means that it is pegged to something else via a "central party" at a certain exchange rate yet you cannot exchange bitcoins for the computing power that was used to create them. bitcoin is in this sense not backed by anything.
it is a currency in its own right - just as gold is not backed by anything, the same applies to bitcoin
bitcoin currency is created via processing power, and the integrity of the block chain is protected and secured by the existence of a decentralized network of powerful computing nodes
Those "backing" types get the physicality of currency completely backwards. Physical form is not the end in itself, it is a means to an end, and the end is scarce supply. Physical goods cannot be copied, thus its very form prevents any kind of artificially inflating the supply.
Bitcoin being purely non-physical had to come up with a way to secure that goal different way, and it did. Its limited supply is guaranteed by the inventions: blockchain and Nakamoto consensus (blockchain alone won't cut it). With those scarcity of non-physical items is acheived without the risk of artifically inflating the supply.
Excellent explanation.
"as I wrote 2.5 years ago"
Aren't we a petty shit with a big ego. Ok, so in 2.5 years you haven't learned anything...that's embarrassing.
"I love how BC uses 256bit PKI with salted hash"
Really? When you know absolutely NOTHING about cryptography?. You just read in some one page, link bait article how that's, 'really good'.
"it ain't backed by anything."
You need daddy? Someone to tell you it's all going to be ok? hahaha
"Anonymous puts a little time into understanding as much about banking and finance as they understand about scientology"
Kill yourself. NO, really, proceed to your garage (if you even have one) with some tubing and start the car up.
If not then I see you're dying of AIDS.
"sub group that happens to work in certificate / key store management"
"verified on a quarterly basis by the top 100 cryptocoin holders to verify that they maintain the same amount of precious metals in the exchange, as there exists cryptocoins in circulation."
So 4x a year, 100 guys are going to travel where to inspect... you must have been high when you wrote that.
You're poor for a reason, and that is, you're stupid.
Spend your money, how you see fit. It's not an either or proposition of bitcoins or metals. That's just a bullshit narrative pushed by whackjobs on both sides of the nonexistent debate because none of the people talking about it, matter. They don't own shit. WTF does gold have to do with bitcoin? I'm selling dollars if I want some coins. If am buying gold, I know how to do that and am not having a problem buying any amount. You try and buy a lousy 100k of bitcoin. These people want to know your dick size and get some dna from it. muh freedom, internetz, BULLSHIT.
you seem angry? Are you angry at your mother? If you really want to know about mistakes, you should ask your parents.
I know Wences. Nice guy.
Close the box
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wnMijJm57A
Electronic money is either a joke, a fraud, or a fascist's wet dream.
One good EMP and presto, chango, auf wiedersehn.
Why look further than gold and silver? If the neo-nazis hate it, all the more reason to like it.
if there is an EMP strong enough to wipe out EVERY electronic device on the planet, i'm pretty sure 'currency' and 'money' will be the least of our concerns.
One, 'good emp' and there's no water coming out of your taps and you're in the dark. Granted, you could wipe your ass with George Washington but other than that, you'd have big problems.
That's just such a cunt, nothing argument. Oh the sky is going to fall.
And wtf is this garbage? "If the neo-nazis hate it" ???
I haven't heard reference to presto, chango in a long time, use to hear it all the time. If bitcoin is capped via math, do pre-max possible mined coins have an implied fractional value of the possible total value or are they discounted for the fact that future-mined coins will dilute their current value, some kind of sliding exponential component? The supposition that the coins are a constant, like a mass of gold or silver, seems unproven. For instance, if a bitcoin holder dies leaving no record enabling access to the coins, do the coins "disappear" or stay frozen in a cyber space account?
The value of a bitcoin is determined by market based price discovery, and the participants in that market probably use all sorts of factors, including the ones you mentioned, to decide if bitcoin at a certain price seems relatively expensive or relative cheap. Many bitcoin are 'frozen' on the blockchain because people threw away a mining laptop before the value shot up, they forgot their passwords, or they died, but that number is hard to estimate.
It is simply a highly predictable speculative trade or transfer vehicle to ZH, not an way of life as some might want people to believe.
Agreed, what's to say that when bitcoin reaches sufficient value and adoption the NSA won't just activate their backdoors in your iShit to either steal your coins or break the network?
There is no central issuing authority that can arbitrarily print it.
...fucking idiot.
ZH abusers are some of teh stupidest people on teh interwebs.
What's the difference between digital currency and fiat? 15 million out of 21 million Bitcoins allowed to exist in the protocol have been mined. I don't think you can say that 75% of fiat ever to exist has been printed.
Ultimately I don't think there is substantial difference. They're both just big confidence games backed by no fixed quantity of any asset or commodity.
No part of Bitcoin relies on any decree ("fiat") by any authority.
Some people might disagree with that, particularly with respect to how some changes get into Bitcoin core. Any time human decision making is involved, you have the possibility for abuse, but the option to 'fork' gives people some degree of protection against that sort of thing.
The block chian is not backed by FUCKING FORCE. This means that Governments cannot force you to pay taxes or settle debts in Bitcoin. Participation in the block chain is voluntary, so far. Compe-fucking-tition...this alone should be sufficient for everybody to stop rearranging fucking deck chairs, when the subject of bitcoin arises.
Wake me up when .gov takes it over. Yes, something will need to replace the failing dollar at some point.
Using Blythe, to attack Bitcoin, even though she weighs less than a duck, is poisoning the well. Next.
The difference between Fonestar and Coinhead is like the difference between a $20.00 Liberty gold piece, and a hunk of dog shit.
That Fonestar guy was cool - this guy is like Bitcoin - volatile, dangerous, and mostly fake.
OH "volatile" so do you even know what the fuck that means?
Bitcoin is like modern medicine, it treats the symptoms instead of curing the disease of the state.
Bitcoin has teh power to destroy teh state!
"Bitcoin has teh power to destroy teh state "
Curious, why do so many bitcoin enthusiasts show signs of dyslexia ?
because we are up abusing cryptose until 4AM?
Wow - i know some people that are into kinky stuff, but even they know where to draw the line.
No wonder you are all fucked up.
Bitcoin has the power to empty your wallet and you have no idea you just got robbed, who did it, and no one will care.
The only way your wallet gets emptied is if you place it under third party control (on a bank/exchange), if you expose your private key, if you pick an easy to crack password, or if someone forces you to give up the password.
If you don't make any of the first three mistakes and can avoid the '$5 wrench' attack (which certain wallets can help with by requiring multiple authorizations for spending and access to 'throw-away' wallets hidden next to the 'real' ones), then your bitcoin should be secure.
Despite all the ignoramuses downvoting, this is exactly right. Colored coins encode all manner of property transfers and contracts, making moot one of the primary internal government functions. Of course, bitcoin competes with gold and silver, so idiot ZHers who can't use their brains to analyze situations just HATE it for no other reason (refusing to internalize the real reason for their hate) and just say any kind of shit that sounds like an argument against bitcoin and refuse to listen to any argument, no matter how well reasoned or based in fact it is, that is pro-bitcoin.
Blind, irrational hatred.
This is why the vast majority of people remain in the 99%.
LOL "colored coins" LOL
Zero legal basis in fact that your satoshi is somehow linked to the asset. Ask a lawyer sometime.
Better yet ask a lawyer about the legal status of Bitcoin itself, let alone a "colored" one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLU4B8L-ROc
Key quote: "the law hasn't gotten there yet".
Say "lol" a few more times, maybe that will make people think that your idiot ramblings have some sort of meaning.
Might as well tell us "paper" has no meaning, including paper that has contracts, titles, or deeds written on it.
Guns have meaning. Everything else is for taking with guns.
Grow up kids. Transferring numbers on devices isn't gonna change anything.
"Transferring numbers on devices isn't gonna change anything."
That's exactly what the record industry, the publishing industry, Kodak, and countless others thought when faced with the rising tide of virtualization. And they were wrong. No reason to think the outcome will be any different for digital money and contracts.
These companies dealt with information, not physical violence.
Physical violence is always a threat, but it's unlikely to happen everywhere at the same time. Some countries already do have big restrictions on the use of crypto's, and those regimes are resigning themselves to the ash heap of history by doing so, because the ones that are smart enough to get on board are going to see their wealth multiply exponentially - not because of the currency or scarcity aspects of Bitcoin, but because of the massive disintermediation it can deliver to make economically parasitic industries obsolete.
Perhaps a few of the smarter bitcoin-banning governments will wise up at some point and jump on the wealth bandwagon, and the rest can be North Korea. You can't save people from their own poor decision making.
The thing is, just about every country in the world is finding out that debt based fiat games can't go on indefinately. You can't beat math, even with a gun. Not in the long run. And every time one of those countries reaches a crisis point, the value of cryptocurrencies goes up - not because the state is going to replace their fiat with Bitcoin, but because a lot of their citizens will. And eventually, I think it will get so bad in some country that they will just toss out their toilet paper fiat in favor of bitcoin, and that only has to happen once for the 'light' to go on in a lot of people's minds, and at that point - things get fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOGJQD0WXkk
Name one idea that guns have 'killed.' Guns kill people, they don't kill ideas. You can use guns to delay good ideas for a while, in specific places, but in the long run, a good idea always wins.
the law hasn't gotten there yet
Ha! Herein lies the beauty of blockchain. We don't really care about law that much. Our contracts execute directly on blockchain (be it Bitcoin or Ethereum) and there is nothing that law can do about it. Funny is how many people think bitcoin is just a currency. You can laugh at colored coins (aka Open Assets protocol) up until you see a car being sold for bitcoin that transfers its legal title to new owner and won't start with the key used by anyone but him/her. You can scoff at its unclear legal status until you see a copyright lawsuit won by evidencing SHA hash of a song recorded on a blockchain and validated on the spot. It is called digital fingerprinting for a reason.
By the way, I stack silver, too.
The law doesnt care that you ignore the law. The law will toss you in a dungeon and leave you to rot with your stash of memorized codes.
The law will use its own rules to decide who owns the car and grant him physical possession backed by sheriff guns. At that point he will rip out the ignition and replace it with his own.
Where bitcoin intersects with the physical world and any repudiators like governments remains a problem.
Not if the engine management system only works with a certain private key. Nearly everything today is electronic and contains a microprocessor , if these are activated / de-activated by private key then no amount of laws or guns could govern the ownership of anything except perhaps land or art.
OMG, contracts that enforce themselves? What will we ever do with all of those extra lawyers? Bitcoin is to lawyers and bankers as the web was to retail brokers and travel agents - they just haven't realized it yet. The upside is - think of all of the great things those well educated people could do once we turn over banking and contracting to automation.
Blind, irrational hatred.
Are you nuts? Sounds like you are describing yourself toward PM owners. I just don't give a shit about bitcoin. Don't waste my time thinking about it.
This is why the vast majority of people remain in the 99%.
I think PM owners are somewhere around 1%.
Hey man. If you like bitcoin, buy it. I could care less.
"I just don't give a shit about bitcoin. Don't waste my time thinking about it."
The fact that you are posting on here directly contradicts that statement.
Perhaps subconciously you are interested in it ? In that case why don't you do some research ? Most bitcoin heads started out as haters until they reaslised that this invention will be as transformative to money and finance as the internet was to paper communications.
The fact that you are posting on here directly contradicts that statement.
It's been a lazy day for me. One of those days when I don't feel like doing anything productive. So I've been posting all day long.
Perhaps subconciously you are interested in it ?
No. I'm fully invested in silver.
Good Luck.
Sounds like you are describing yourself toward PM owners.
That's because you are retarded. I am ~99% in silver.
Perhaps I misunderstood you. I thought you were trashing PM owners.
I am ~99% in silver.
So am I.
I am trashing PM owners who don't fucking understand why they own PMs. They are fucking stupid sheep who deserve to be shorn and slaughtered.
I will move out of PMs when the time comes, not a moment before or after. Those who own it now see it as a religion and will hold it long past the peak until asteroid mining makes it worth NOTHING. But by then they probably won't care because an age of unending abundance will be upon us.
Ask Jungle Jim about being 99% in anything.
I own silver too, I'm two thirds to my goal of my weight in silver.
But I'll never be close to 20% in PMs, let alone silver.
That's just crazy to hold all the eggs in one basket.
Crazy like a fox.
No-one ever went from pleb to oligarch by hedging their bets.
Do you find it at all troubling that Jungle's Jim's Dad turns 95 everytime the price of Gold drops?...how many birthdays can a man have in a single year?
my grand-grandmother was also 99% on silver and it had actual buckets full of silver coins and then the spanish civil war started, and guess what happened. Bye bye money. Just think about it.
With btc i have multiple backups, but i have to say that i'm a it technician so i know to keep my computer and mobile virus-free.
And 'the State' has the power to destroy 'the BitCoin'!
If it destroys all knowledge on computer science, yes.
The state can destroy bitcoin users.
As effectively as they can destroy drug use.
Of this I'm sure. If they really, really wanted to, and had enough computing resources (we're talking much bigger than Google), they could do it.
Of that I'm sure they couldn't.
Uh, so does somehting else...and it's proven and been around for 10s of thousands of years in use (and around for 4.5 billion years or so).
"There are more people in the world who need a currency they can trust, than there are people in the world who can trust their currency." Woodchuck's chuck, etc.
Scooby LOVES Bitcoin! Let's have a Scooby singalong about Bitcoin, OK gang?
Long anti-bitcoin rants
coinhead.pal is here to defend Satoshi honour!
I got some bitcoin because I absolutely hate it soo much, I actually had to get some and I mean it... I think it sucks! The sign-up process sucks? Its so locked down I can barely access it. Im only allowed to buy so much and I get to buy more as I give them more identification. Its really fucking ridiculous. Its not anonymous at all, .. Like I said I bought a little bit, a very little bit with money I was willing to lose but I fucking hate the bit shit.
I guess what Im trying to get at.. For a so called "Free" Currency, its has quite a Socialist feel to it... Maybe its just me? but I dont think so.
Plus it goes in opposite direction of Gold. Which means it goes in same direction of USD. I don't hate Bitcoin. But I sure as heck do t trust it.
Everyone should LOVE Bitcoin, like Scooby does! Yea!
Try off the books exchanges like localbitcoins.com, or trade them for untraceable altcoins like Dash then back into bitcoins (or just keep the Dash).
Or just keeps slandering good ideas until they go away (they won't).
Im simply sharing my scepticism and my experience, thats all. Im not slandering, Im really serious when I say I was not comfortable with the information some exchanges were asking me for and thats the truth, its not "slander". If any companies ask you to take a selfie of you and your drivers license, I wouldn’t recommend doing it.
It's not the companies who want the information. Blame the lawyers and their AML/KYC regulations. Instead of leaving your bitcoin on an exchange/bank, move it into a wallet on your phone that you control (and make sure you have a back-up).
Once you've done that, you'll find the experience much less limited.
and for those who don't practice smartphone religion?
If you want to avoid smartphones, then you can use a hardware wallet like the Trezor, and plug it into a computer at the public library when you want to transfer funds. That computer can be infested with viruses and keyloggers, and you can still transact securely because of the security features the hardware wallet provides.
For convenience, you could also load bitcoin onto things like the Shift card, so that you can spend them just about anywhere.
https://blog.coinbase.com/2015/11/20/introducing-the-shift-card/
I never expected a coherent thoughtful insightful response, well done.
Thanks. You asked a good question. I think good questions always deserve a good response. There are valid security/privacy issues with smartphones. I choose to live with those, in exchange for the capabilities, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to make the same choice.
I have written apps for both Andoid and iOS, so I'm familiar with what the device API's look like and how much mischief you can expose yourself to by clicking 'Agree' without reading the terms of service (which no one ever does). Some apps are literally data trojans that exist primarily to collect information and re-sell it. Knowing that, I think I can make the trade-off safely, but I wouldn't recommend that my mother use a smart phone, because there's a good chance she'd have her data collected and sold off, technically with her 'permission' but without her knowledge.
There are also some efforts underway to make bitcoin usable on so-called 'feature' phones, largely to address the needs of third world users who have little or no access to banking services from any other source. I'm not as familiar with those, and not sure what the status is, but that's another potential option for the future.
You should be more accurate in your comments.
It's not Bitcoin, but the exchange you don't like
There's ways to obtain, hold, and use Bitcoin anonymously if you're so inclined.
Thats right its not bitcoin, but I was sent by the bitcoin site to a couple of places I wasnt even successfull signing up at? Then a place in germany I thought were crooks, probably not, but still not comfortable with the info they were requiring.. FYI...The experience really sucked and it makes me less hopefull of the coins success
I had the same feeling signing up for MtGox a few years ago. It felt hinky, so I never sent them info, and was later glad I didn't. I think coinbase is as legit as any other bank, so I have used them to purchase bitcoin, but it doesn't stay in that account very long.
Here we go "Slander" when Im talking about my actual experience.... Just in time for TPP??? How would I have ever guessed. The first level, I could buy $25 worth per day, I felt like a preschooler?
The best place to keep your Bitcoins is inside a Trezor hardware wallet. It costs $99, but so does an inexpensive safe for gold. Buying peer to peer with someone from localbitcoins.com is a viable alternative to using a centralized exchange. I use Gyft.com to purchase Amazon.com gift certificates with my Bitcoins to purchase mail order items. Thank you for sharing your experiences, even if they haven't been great for you. Sceptics would be even more sceptical if there were only glowing positive reviews present. For any readers out there wishing to try Bitcoins, what could we do to assist? I gave away a pool of 0.40 Bitcoins to 25 ZeroHedge readers in April of 2013. I'm considering offering a triangle trade between 1 gram gold Maple Leaf coins / mailed envelopes of fiat currency / Bitcoins when OpenBazaar goes live near the end of the year. Does anyone have other good ideas?
Yea says Scooby! Yea!
Thanks for the info.
"Fuck, I bought some paper gold contracts off the COMEX. The process was just awful, clearly that means gold sucks and you should never buy it!"
Fuck off shill.
Please dont ever buy comex paper? NO NO!!!! Buy physical!! Oh wait ya buy comex paper... its the best form of gold.
> I got some bitcoin because I absolutely hate it soo much, I actually had to get some and I mean it... I think it sucks!
Oh my dear sweet Jaysus. You did so many things wrong I'm not surprised you hate it.
> The sign-up process sucks?
There is no signup in Bitcoin. You probably used some web wallet instead of being your own bank. At least I hope it's blockchain.info and not some full custodial account.
> Its so locked down I can barely access it.
I'm pretty sure you don't control your private key then. And you will get hacked. In Bitcoin it is more true than anywhere else: if you don't hold it [it being the private key] - you don't own it.
> Im only allowed to buy so much
You're using the wrong marketplace. Go to localbitcoins or trade with your counterparty directly.
> I get to buy more as I give them more identification
Again, you're doing it wrong.
> Its not anonymous at all
Not if you don't give two fucks about being anonymouys. The sorry state of present times is that you actually have to put in some effort when you want to remain anonymous. Use tumblers.
> I fucking hate the bit shit.
That's because the only thing you see in it is currency. It is not. It is so much more.
> its has quite a Socialist feel to it... Maybe its just me?
It must be you then for Bitcoin is the thing that will actually save the capitalism.
How convenient it is that everyone is just supposed to know this? I understand your point and you may actually understand how shitcoin works, but the rest of the world wont for a while... Gold you just have to hold on tight to.. Im not convinced especially with everyone trying to jamb an untested form of money down my throat.
I will openly admit Im a newbie to bitcoin and Im just sharing my experience and by doing that Ive learned quite a bit more? Most people are at this stage and if its hard to sign up for or figure out, Im not going to be the only one having problems with it. Virtual wallet to someone who has had a wallet in their back pocket for 25 years just does not compute?
These things take time. Using the Internet when tin, elm, gopher, and veronica were the common points of interface was difficult and confusing too, and so there weren't that many people using it back then. But VC money saw the potential, NCSA Mosaic was developed, it turned into Netscape, and within a few years, you started seeing www addresses on television and print advertising.
Serious VC money has been flowing into crypto startups for only a couple of years now, but we're already starting to see major improvements in the ease of use with hardware wallets, the Shift card, 21's plug-and-play bitcoin computer, etc. Give it another year or two, and I think we'll see crypto currency adoption hit the knee of the of adoption curve, and that's when I expect things will really start to get fun.
There is no sign up process for bitcoin, you create a bitcoin address (usually by running a wallet) and now you can accept and then store and spend those coins.
What you had issues with was using an exchange for buying bitcoin with dollars. They are subject to government lawes - KYC/AML etc. You'd have the same problems setting up an online account to buy gold or silver. This isn't anything specific to bitcoin.
Exactly I understand what your saying, but I dont need an online account for gold I can go buy some at the pawn shop with cash? No signup at all? A friendly cash transaction at the local pawn shop? After some of these conversations I may have to go get some gold just for piece of mind. Its one of the reasons I own gold, I dont want all my wealth in the system... NOT SMART. I want some in my hand?
This is my perspective as a newbie to bitcoin.. Everyone tells me its great and Im telling you as someone who values gold what I think of it so far? Having a hard time getting on the cheerleader band wagon thats all.
In theory, you don't need a computer to create a bitcoin address and add funds to it. You could use coin flips and some math to generate a valid address, and then exchange fiat face to face with someone who would transfer the equivalent amount of bitcoin to that address.
In practical terms, no one wants to do that math by hand, so they use software to generate the wallet keys, and you'd probably want to use a computer to check that the bitcoin you paid for was actually credited to the right account (you can do that anonymously with blockchain.info).
But if we're evaluating both scenarios fairly, to achieve the same level of confidence in your gold purchase, you'd also need to check the gold you bought for purity and/or tungsten cores, which isn't simple at all.
When the gold hits your pocket, you can be pretty sure that you made a fair purchase, but without a lot of additional work, you can't be 100% sure, so you're depending on trust. With bitcoin and access to a web browser, you can be a lot more sure that you weren't cheated, with a lot less effort and no need to trust the honesty of the person you're transacting with.
That's one of the beautiful things about bitcoin - you can buy it from the shadiest 'dealer' imaginable with confidence, without any need to trust that person.
to be safe you can use a cheap smartphone only to store it, and you can buy at a bitcoin atm at coinatmradar.com the exchanges are for trading, and i think about this more like a long term retirement plan.
What happens if people get pissed at the people with Bitcoin and they destroy the machines out of spite? What happens if the government turns off power? Nazi Germany did it.
Why would they do that? Possibly in an act of suicide. With no government, there is no law and all property is then gone anyway.
Wouldn't work unless they're willing to shut down the entire Internet globally. All that trouble just because of little ol' magic internet money? I don't think so.
Fonestar finally got published ....(golf clap).
Where the hell is that guy anyway? He was a great bitcoin punching bag.
He was banned. While pretty obnoxious, there's tons more trolls posting here currently that do far worse than he.
coinhead is the latest user name of the original fonestar.
You are correct!