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The Bitcoin Universe Explained
As evidenced by the Greek, Chinese, and now Argentine 'jumps', the world remains increasingly aware of the inevitable worth of fiat currencies and fears the desperate acts of governments as the react to that reality (and is looking for alternatives).
This infographic explains the wide ranges of the Bitcoin universe, accompanied with quotes from some of its best-known business leaders.
Courtesy of: Visual Capitalist
So from miners to merchants, the Bitcoin universe continues to expand dramatically as we noted previously, "There are more people in the world who need a currency they can trust, than there are people in the world who can trust their currency."
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Blythe wants to take blockchain technology and merge it with teh status-quo banking system. Blythe and Jamie are no friends of Bitcoin and Satoshi.
Blythe, Jamie and the FED are going to own the blockchain one way or another.
Even if they have to gather up a few dozen coinheads and phonestars and water board your asses.
They'll probably just hack it.
Welcome to the latest version of financial cryptocurrency musical chairs.
When the music stops, and you have no chair, your ass-ets hit the fucking floor.
Also, according to the info-graphic, there seems to be 11 potential bus stops for your shitcoin to get clipped on it's way back and forth to self or vendor.
Coinheaded fucktard should be along in 5......4.........3..........2............1...........
Yeah we are here you douche-nugget. Fuck you, fuck your 0lde-coin. Fuck everything you stand for!
Let me know when the central banks start stacking bitcoins, pinhead.
You can get coinhead for about $2 in Greece.
No electricity or ISP connection, no bit coiny. With NSA and others poking their noses in everyone's life, you think your bitcoin is safe when the power is on?
Cash will be there whether it is snowing, raining or an earthquake shakes it.
Yes we do think Bitcoin is totally safe to use, safe to own, safe to flog.
https://localbitcoins.com
Paper or brain wallets need no electricity or internet. You only can't spend them, but with no electricity most stores will be closed anyway.
Transactions are not limited to stores and people, they include people to people. Without electricity, stores will be closed for sometime, but with physical medium of exchange you can trade with your neighbor, while with virtual medium of exchange you can't, because you dont have electricity to make transactions happen.
So you can define one set of circumstances for which gold or silver is superior. Surely you aren't arguing that makes it superior for all. Today, PM's serve a purpose nothing else will, as do Fiat and crypttocurrencies.
You focus on PMs, whereas I specifically used the term "physical medium of exchange". It can be anything material that is widely accepted, and in different points in time under various circumstances, salt, tea, spices, tobacco, cigarettes all were used as medium of exchange. I'm not denying bitcoin its space under the sun, it's just very specific, and I don't believe bitcoin is the be all and end all.
The circumstances will be a doomsday scenario the goldbugs are waiting for to happen.
So if the power is out for a couple weeks, do you have enough food to survive that long without buying anything?
So that is the use case that defines where we are going?
As a matter of fact it is.
Our entire system is extremely fragile and requires a tremendous amount of work to keep it running. Mess up just a little thing, and poof, it's gone.
Read up about the 2003 blackout in the NE US and Canada. It turned the power off for 55 million people for a couple days. The fault was an overloaded transmission line heated up and sagged and came close to a branch that hadn't been pruned. That caused a cascading fault that took out power to 55 million people.
Anopheles..
Then also have food stores, also have gold and silver in small denominations for transactions. Most btc advocates already have those things.
We are just trying to say how it is going to revolutionize trade. Wait till it's paired with something like Etherium.org. We'll explain to you how that works when the time comes, but it solves a lot of BTCs issues and will work with it.
Completely irrelevant.
"Cash will be there whether it is snowing, raining or an earthquake shakes it."
This nigger is fully retarded. Cash may be there, but it won't be worth SHIT.
Really? Retarded?
What do they value bitcoin's worth? In fiat.
People trade in bitcoin for dollars or digits.
I think people like you assume you are more intelligent than you really are.
Amagi Metals values it in gold and silver. I have used bitcoin to buy silver, as it so happens.
"I think people like you assume you are more intelligent than you really are."
Intelligence has nothing to do with it. I consider all sides, and pick the one most in line with reality. If no side is with reality, I make my own that matches observations. That is how I came to realize that literally everyone is wrong when it comes to climate change (its caused by humans effecting the water cycle and will NOT cause runaway warming), and that ZHers are complete morons when it comes to actually understanding what makes money money.
On this planet of ours where we have endured a few world wars and places like syria and ukraine are in the news with pictures depicting devastation, what good will bitcoin do for those poor souls?
Better off with cash of some kind or precious metals if there is a way of guaging its worth under those circumstances. The only alternative to something physical to trade is a gun and armed robbery if a person feels desperate enough.
what good will bitcoin do for those poor souls?
They can flee and have their money right there wherever they go. No having to shove gold up your ass. No having to dump worthless national judenfetzen.
It's so simple, even a moron like coinhead can do it, yet it evades the grasp of ZHers.
Points of entry and exit (exchanges) are vulnerable. Until bitcoin is universally accepted, I have to convert something to bitcoin and bitcoin to something. Any exchange can be brought down by government action, as they have to operate within some jurisdiction. There are other nuances as well, as bitcoin isn't legal tender, so any contract settled in bitcoin can be deemed invalid, which is a risk for the buyer.
You can actually trade directly using Bitcoin as long as the other party accepts it. That is happening to a very minor degree ... I can even settle up with friends in the pub that way right now - no exchanges involved.
You basically confirmed my words about wider acceptance of bitcoin. Settling with friends is one thing because you trust each other, settling with complete strangers requires an escrow agent whom you both trust if you don't trust each other. Since bitcoin is not legal tender, you can't sue somebody for not holding up his part of a contract. To summarize, I'm not saying bitcoin is useless, I'm saying there are risks involved which at this point limit its wider usage, so it's a self-reinforcing loop: it's not in wide use because of the risks, and risks are the reason it's not in widespread usage.
You are stuck on the need for points of entry and exit. What was your entry point for your paycheck? You first worked and got paid. You took it in fiat but could just have easily have taken it in cryptocoin. You only need to exit when you want something you can't purchase using bitcoin. There might be a need for that. You keep your money today in an electronic ledger that is inferior to the blockchain. It is kept only by your bank and your bank could zero your balance in an instant and you would have no proof they did so. The government can erase you from the ledger. Those things cannot happen with a distributed ledger.
Things you reject as unacceptable with Bitcoin you have already accepted with inferior technology.
If I don't have bitcoins I have to go to an exchange and get them. Once I got them, if I want to change them back into something else, I also have to go to an exchange. I think this is simple matter and we can agree on that. As I already explained, exchanges are vulnerable as they can be brought down by government actions. If you can't convert your bitcoins, you can trade only with parties willing to accept them. As for being paid with crytpocoins, that would be possible if bitcoin was legal tender, which it is not, that's the whole point. Businesses always operate within some jurisdiction and they have to use legal tender defined by that jurisdiction to pay employees. Can you imagine Apple paying developers in bitcoin and filing taxes denominated in bitcoin? I can't, as long as bitcoin isn't recognised as legal tender.
I have nothing against bitcoin per se, it's only that in this circumstances, when it's not widely accepted and not legal tender, its usage is limited. If everyone accepted bitcon, things would be a little different, but the reality is that it is not widely accepted, and that makes it suitable for some specific use only.
We look at bitcoin from different perspective: you tell me how ingeniously designed it is, how good it works, and I tell you that that's correct and OK, but in practice, it has limitations and potential choke points. I don't care how good something works in theory, or will work at some point in the future, I care how it works in the world that surrounds me now.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, in practice, there is.
I've grown a bit fond of coinhead's singlarity of purpose.
Let's here the case for how, whenthe power is gone and bitcoin worthless, your FRN's retain their value. Hard to believe this comment got upvoted.
I wonder, they all say "Argentina this" or "Argentina that", but Argentina what? That they'll re-sincere the exchange rate of USDARS 9 which nobody there believes in (or takes into account anyways) up to USDARS 15 (which is what everyone think balance is)? That's a no-newser if I ever saw one. After 5+ years of double digit inflation, such a jump in the value of USD means really nothing.
Oh wait, Central Bank reserves depleted? Hah, they were depleted like 2 years ago when they managed to get that CNY swap. After all, calculations about depleted reserves don't take into account the swap. The CB reserves have been on fumes for some years now, now news there either.
What, ZH, what? FinMin records fire news? That's from april. Most Argies are not in the banking system. Most Argies know shits about bitcoins (they stack USD notes under their matresses, because you can't even get some internatioally accepted financial gold there even if you try, considering the blockade on imports and the restrictions on money changing - yeah, fin-gold is considered money in AR).
Argentina is a no news which can't explain nor cause a rise in BC. End of story.
There is no such thing as a central bank reserve.
Well, the CB charter in Argentina says (or used to, don't know how it stands now after Del Pont) that circulating money should be supported by FX reserves (including gold) held by the CB.
lmfao!
"Bitcoin paved the way for decentralized security, and will jumpstart the use of personal privacy devices."
says the CEO, of Ledger. Who ever the fuck that is.{ a shill, shell company, for some bank or equity/VC firm}
I think Bill Gates and Steve Jobs have seances at the NSA headquarters, and James Clapper is the medium.
Just read the Bitcoin white paper and the you understand he is right.
Telling a nigger to read is as offensive to him as a job application.
Did you have to tear yourself away from the XBox to think that shit up?
Some people have their heads so far up their asses, and are so brainwashed, you could make pictographics of how the scheme works in a Z/H article, and they'll still try to find useful idiots to sell their cybershit to.
I see. My head is up my ass. TREMENDOUS AND THOUGHTFUL is that response.
You don't know what money is, thus you will lose everything as conditions change beyond historical norms. I will laugh at you when it happens, then clap you on the back and laugh with you when it no longer matters.
tmosley, I've never seen anyone who understands the big picture as well as you do filled with so much anger. You really confuse me.
I was happy to see another Bitcoin thread here on ZH this weekend, but these responses have gotten so poisonous, so quickly, I think this will be my only comment.
Yep a poisoned environment poisons the items being discussed in that environment...
BadLibertarian, you offer eminently respectful, and insightful views reflecting deep thought. Don't stop posting because of the noise here. Just be aware this is Fight Club so alongside you people will be bashing each other's faces bloody with wanton emotionalism.
As disturbing as the juxtaposition may seem, their freedom to do so underscores everyone else's freedom to express himself fully, which is liberating for uncovering the truth.
Those who resort to personal attacks degrade their own reputation accordingly. Those who respect others only dignify themselves and elevate their reputation accordingly, earning them more serious consideration for their ideas. So keep up the good work.
Appreciate the compliment, herkomilchen. I get and kind of like the 'fight club' aspect, because I'm confident that I can defend my views without ad hominem. Not as thrilled about the 'poop fight club' aspect, because there's no defense against 'splatter.' Doesn't dominate every thread, but the ones it does it destroys, imo.
I read it asswipe. BTC is a multi leveled ponzi scheme.
You didn't read it, because it describes a pure technical concept and not what you are saying. Those guys who haven't even read anything essential about it and just claim it is a scam are really funny.
Here's a spare copy.
Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System
Now go crawl back into your iCage. Bitcoin is BITSCAM.
Show me the places in this paper that prove that Bitcoin is a scam. You can't, because you haven't even read it.
Read it.
I'm with Yen Cross on this.
MLM Ponzie.
I don't understand what the term "Ponzi Scheme" means.
You surely don't.
Bitcoin is not a scam, it's an interesting technical concept. But as it exists it is unreliable and not useful except as a lab experiment using a very small amount of throwaway money.
However, in practice it has huge holes in the performance envelope, in other words, when you actually attempt to fly it, there are too many ways it can crash and burn.
Too many people have lost all they "invested" in Bitcoin and similar schemes, and in every case some techno-dweeb jumps in and says "But if you had only implemented better security measures, or didn't trust that particular exchange, ..." or some other of the multitude of excuses. There are too many things that can go wrong.
"Bitcoin white paper"
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Link?
All whilst glossing over the point that access is provided via private networks.
This is from the terms and conditions of a typical ISP contract:
"We may deny User access to all or part of the Service without notice if User engages in any conduct or activities that we in our sole discretion believes violates any of the terms and conditions in this Agreement."
Great!
And further to that, the NSA has repeaters on EVERY internet trunk and network running in and out of the country. They keep a copy of everything. That's what their multi billion dollar datacenter in Utah is for.
We Buttcoin nao
One thing this makes clear is the money involved, it maybe expected to continue hear pro bitcoin bias in the comments section here and now I understand all the "interest". Not to say I wont get a little bit...
Very first post.
I like the theory of bitcoin/blockchain. What I don't like is that it's somehow considered crash-proof. A concerted effort by the banks and major governments would shut bitcoin down. All you'd have to do is screen the protocol on firewalls and major Internet switching points. All IP packets containing bitcoin transactions would be sent to the null bucket. All your wallets become inactive, your miners have nothing coming in or going out. Even if you only got 5-10% of transactions to fail, loss of confidence would cause it to crash. But hey, I've only been in computers since 1981... Stacking silver for the win.
Your Comment: "Stacking silver for the win."
Me too, everything I compare it to just doesnt stack up to the real deal...
Nice!
To believe this cannot be maniplated is foolish, and to believe TPTB wont be able to se what you own is autistic.
http://www.coindesk.com/leak-hacking-team-bitcoin-wallet-tracker/
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitpay-hacked-5-000-bitcoins-stolen/
on and on ...
Quick, someone grab the smelling salts because as soon at "crazytech" sees this, he's gonna fly into an apoplectic fit of denials and spouting of much stupdiity about "more atoms than".
As long as there are a few free countries, you can tunnel all traffic there.
After 4 years and you're still so niave.
Bitcoin is taxed as any other capital gain is. The funds that are deposited into Bitcoin have to originate from somewhere.I'll bet you have a good accountant. /s
Europe and China are both clamping down on cyber deposits { tangible currencies converted to crypto currencies}
So yes you might be able to hide some money, until you can't, or get caught doing so. Ignorance, doesn't absolve one from tax liability.
A bar of gold, on the other hand, can be traded with, without crypto trails.
Taxation has nothing to do with internet filtering.
What you mention is a systemic risk, but true for all assets. Governments can also ban trade of gold and get after traders like they go after drug dealers.
Taxation has evertything to do with it. The reason Bitcoin is so beloved, is for it's supposed anonymity.
Governments can render you thumbdrive useless, with the flick of a switch. They can't render a bar of gold useless, let alone find it, if it's used as a medium of /for trade.
Just believe what you want to believe. Makes happy!
Governments control over the internet is tighter than a popcorn fart. As explained above, they'll block (or better track) bitcoin transactions.
Governments control over reality is not nearly as tight.
How does a government know that an encrypted information contains a bitcoin transaction? Sure they can ban all encryption, but then there is steganography.
They'll know you've sent a message they can't read. They'll study your meta-data, and if it trips their algorithm, they'll be out to visit you with pliers and a blowtorch.
Unless you can tuck yourself into a bitcoin.
You do not know what steganography is. Look it up! The only way to stop this is to shut down the internet completely.
I knpw exactly what steganography is.
So when you know about it, why are you describing the scientificly impossible?
You are way too naive. Do you think bitcoin transactions are in a RANDOM format that a PERSON has to decode individually? Or do you think they are in a STANDARD, and RECOGNIZABLE format for machine processing?
Encrypted or not, a STANDARD FORMAT is easily recognized. The ADDRESS isn't encrypted, otherwise the message wouldn't know where to go? Imagine mailing a letter with an encrypted address. The content of that letter can be encrypted, but the address? Hahahhaaha
What a moron. 50K transations sent to Overstock.com over an encrypted channel. Some are debit, some credit, some paypal, some bitcoin. Which one is Bitcoin? Dumbass!
You are the MORON. How do those transactions make it to the blockchain? What you are talking about is the encrypted BROWSER connection between you and Overstock.
Is Overstock a miner that processes your bitcoin? Are bitcoin transactions processed (mined) in a browser or webserver?
They will know you've sent a message to a specific address or domain. A bitcoin transaction doesn't simpley get flung out randomly onto the internet.
Bitcoin transactions MUST be in a recognized format so miners can accept and process them. It's SIMPLE to identify and filter all those messages out. How is your transaction processed if it can't be recognized? If it's to be sent to a specific IP address? That's even easier to block.
You may need to do a little more reading. You don't know as much as you think you do.
Spoken like a true IT geek. Congrats!
As long as it meets certain market needs, what do you care? E.g.
If it acts as a fungible and divisible Medium Of Exchange, that provides acceptable privacy and utility, then who cares?
To my great disappointment, I also observe that most bloggers here fail to see the obvious: "The enemy of my enemy is my ally." This applies especially to PM fanatics -- and I say this as someone who has orders of magnitude more PM than crypto, and as someone who likes to see the bigger picture and detests BS.
p.s. in the case of "The Enemy of my Enemy is my Ally" means that Crypto is the enemy of the Official Economy, and an Ally of the Parallel Economy.
It's so simple, a Caveman can understand it, but not most PM-hugging, Crypto-hating bloggers here, it seems. How sad. Can't even cheer for the underdog to the FRN/Fed. How pathetic.
I guess you've never heard of a VPN, lol. How's that war on bittorrent going? You have been into computers since 81, congratz. I've been a network engineer for the last 20 years, and I can assure you that you have no idea what you are talking about. There is already an enormous amount of data that is encrypted on an everyday basis. The horsepower required to content filter at the core is prohibitive and can never happen without slowing everything to a crawl. Bitcoin needs only a few nodes in the entire world to operate. They could all run on darknet if needed. The only way to shutdown Bitcoin is to shut down the internet. Good luck with that.
Hmmmmmmm . . . .
EMP?
Such measures would be easily evadable with obfuscation. Bitcoin network communications could be embedded within any number of common types of communication protocols like HTTP.
You work at Best Buy "in computers?"
Best point posted so far, H.P. I am no IT genius but if I can block emails with Outlook 2007 I am certain the internet giants can block blockchain protocols. People scoffed at Bill Gates and he was right. What they don't see is all the guys who were gonna invent flying cars and all have failed. BC trolls like dickhead are not doing BC any public relations favors. I will avoid teh BC partly because of teh trolls like dickhead and foneystar. That, and I do not trust it.
Oops, looks like the Masked Downvoter showed up late to the party, and shit on any negative shitcoin comments already.
He probably doesn’t get paid for commenting on Sundays
Nobody pays coinhead you axehole
And no one is going to want to buy Bitcoin after hearing you? Dickhead?
Who said teh we wants you on muh team?
Jesus, you type like a 0.35+ drunk speaks. Log off of ZH, switch over to an internet dictionary and practice the phonetic pronunciation of words. Also, be a man, when Mom tells you computer time is up, just honor her by turning it off and go help with household chores. Her feet are tired from working overtime to support your lazy 20 something unemployed ass. Wash a few dishes, take out the trash, hang up your clothes, etc. Keep practicing phonetics. In a year you will be ready for that job at McDonalds. Your future is bright.
I like the idea of Bitcoin (and own some) but way too easy for the government to screw a bitcoin user.....same is true of other mediums of exchange, but I am far more comfortable stacking and loading
I just took a Cdn$1000.oo position to see how this goes.
If everybody in the computerized world takes even a $100.oo position I'll be rich...I think.
Does the rest of this market make anymore sense than Bitcoin does?
I have thought about buying some Bitcoin but have decided to take a pass. So, you will probably make a killing.
If everybody in the computerized world takes even a $100.oo position ... assume 2 billion people take an average $100 pos, and compare it to the market cap of currently $5 billion.
Sorry, dude, but all the potential participants are in. The bottom of the pyramid pays all and loses all.
If your $1,000 CAD loses 40%, it'll be just as good a "Store of Value" as Gold.
If it loses 65%, it will be just as good a "Store of Value as Silver.
But, unlike Ag or Au, the odds of BTC making a siginifacant recover in < 5 years are a lot higher. Hedge/diversify accordingly.
Bitcoin will NOT make any kind of "recovery". Why? Becasue the majority of people holding it right now are looking to PROFIT from it.
That's why when it went to $500 a couple weeks ago, it crashed back to $300 instantly because so many people were "cashing out".
The ONLY liquidity in the bitcoin system is people buying bitcoin for hard currency. That means for it to go to $1,000, there has to be people (suckers) who are CONTINUALLY willing to pay that much for it.
Will YOU buy bitcoin for $1,000 ? or do you want to sell what you have?
As soon as you run out of buyers at $1,000, it CRASHES back down.
Sorry boys, the buying frenzy is over.
Gawd, Analpenis, but you are both dull and slow.
Hockey helmet and Special Bus much as a kid ?
The only paper I own is the stuff I wipe my ass with.
Market and fiat paper is worthless, because I cannot do a good job of wiping my ass with it.
Gold was worth $28.00 an ounce when I was a kid. Silver was worth whatever was printed on the coin you spent. Any one think those days are coming back?
All of the lying bum fucking aristocracy of the Age Of Paper Power can burn in their paper suits soonest.
I won't even bother pissing on them to put out the flames.
Problems with gold versus silver start with the unit cost ratio versus silver.
Almost all gold mined is still in existence.
Paper gold has not been as mercilessly manipulated as silver paper because of the influence of institutional and governmental gold asset holders.
Silver mining has dwindled to incidental recovery as a by product of copper, nickel, and lead mining - pure silver mines were played out for the most part over one hundred plus years ago.
Down turn of economy will not deter the most significant modern day usage of consumer electronics - the smart phone. Silver is the most efficient conductor of electricity on a unit cost basis.
Economic recovery of silver in consumer electronics is not feasible, even in China. Economic recovery of silver used in most other modern day applications of silver is not feasible either.
The ten percenters will never stop wanting new consumer electronics, and they survive down turns to the economy just fine it seems.
Add in the newer industrial uses of silver that also shrug off economic issues out of necessity - medical wound dressings, water purification filters, etc., and you have a continuing demand for a metal whose annual production has been falling for decades.
So, you have an indispensable metal being consumed by industrial use constantly, declining in mining production, and under supply pressure to serve both the industrial and monetary silver markets.
Take away the paper manipulation of 2 - 300 times the available physical silver available in the market, and there's a problem with price discovery for the real deal versus fantasy paper silver that never existed.
Lastly, the uncertainty of a major economic event always moves people to seek out safe haven for their hard earned money. Fiat currency has a history of failure for thousands of years, a near perfect track record of failure.
Silver and gold have a five thousand year history of recognized value in times of uncertainty, more so than any other commodity you can name that is portable, incorruptible, stable, and internationally recognized.
To summarize, with silver spot trading for substantially less than the cost of production, I see no down side to investing in it as a safe haven.
If the whole world burns, silver will be a recognized form of currency far easier to trade with than anything else short of 22 LR ammo.
I would rather dance with the silver devil than take on Wall Street, Goldman Sacks Biters, JP Morgan Chase, banks, politicians, the Fed, the CIA, NSA, DHS, IRS, and all of the other thieves on the loose out there.
And crypto currency ?
Please.
If you don't hold it, you don't own it.
Kirk,
Your logic is good. Own gold, silver, food, guns, ammo AND bitcoin.
But for fun, take 21 million total bitcoins in the world and about 7 billion people evenly. 0.003 per person. So, maybe ZH's should 'waste' some of their investment money on 1 or 2 or 10 btcs. Potential payoff is huge.
Bitcoin isn't in it's final form yet. It evolves as we go and will start working with Etherium.org to replace EVERYTHING with distributed ledgers. Escrow, legal contracts, money systems, token systems, stock markets (everything).
So gamble a little on it and lets see what happens. And btc-bashers.. refer to my 1st sentences once more.
Fuck fiat, fuck BitCoin, let's get back-to-basics and use tally sticks!
Or cowry shells, beads or even Canadain Tire money....
I have this huge fucking rock that's carved into a wheel in a guys yard seventy miles from here.
Let's use it instead.
The island of Yap in the south Pacific. They DO use huge stone "wheels" as money.
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/02/15/131934618/the-island-of-sto...
As someone here (6851595 coinhead) already pointed out, Crypto-currencies are Tally Sticks -- Electronic Tally Sticks -- with everyone in the world having their copy.
Chew on that for a while, and see if you can jump over your shadow.
So "There are more people in the world who need a currency they can trust, than there are people in the world who can trust their currency."
I think what they're looking for is gold (physical). It will still be in their hands when the power goes out.
No the power is not going out and even if it does (and kills you all) we couldn't care less. Buh Bitcoin!
You're such a disgrace to your cause. You lack any class or gravitas, and you're command of the English language borders on 3rd grade level.
You should turn up the heat on the mining GPU in your Mothers basement... The brain freeze in Kanukistan is harsh this time of year.
I think it's fonstars newest reincarnation.
Whoever he is, his new meme/persona/whateverthefuckyoucallit is seriously juvenile. It has me a little tweaked. If he were my kid I would give him 30 days to get a job or gtfo. I would also block him from my router.
For a guy who profits by shilling BC to the ZH masses he is turning quite a few potential buyers away with his slaughter of the English language and his snotty 15 yr old attitude.
instead you could just draw a unicorn
Beautiful graphic showing all the positives about bitcoin
Why did they leave out the parts that bitcoin has zero backing, zero assets, zero cash reserves and near zero liquidity?
The only way you get your hard currency out of bitcoin is if someone else injects hard currency by buying (your) bitcoin. Because there's almost no liquidity, exchanges don't cash out out large sums of bitcoin, becasue they have to sell your bitcoin first, to get that hard currency. Small sums aren't a problem, big sums (say a million +) are very difficult to cash out.
I ask myself, would I buy stock (certificates) in a company that has no product, no sales, no assets, and no revenue? And then pay $350 a share? Because that's exactly what bitcoin is.
So what are backing, assets, cash reserves for gold?
What's backiing gold? Not much either, but at least there's something you can hold in your hand. The only thing backing gold is the 12% of mined gold that's used industrially each year. The rest is simply faith, belief, and greed. Just like bitcoin.
Right, value is just imagination by men. In culture their are so many things which can't be held in a hand but have value like music, theater plays, novels, know-how, patents, electricity, information.
It is estimated if gold did not have monetary value, its price would be <$5 oz when comparing the size of supply to the size of industrial demand.
In other words, gold is essential for only a few exotic scientific and industrial uses. These do not "back" gold's valuation. Gold's superior properties to serve as money along with its cultural consensus to serve as money are what give gold nearly all its current value.
Right it is mainly cultural consensus about its utility as money. No much difference between gold and bitcoin.
Anopheles,
I've enjoyed a few or your comments on this thread... long term reader but don't comment much.
Platinum is rare right?
It is true there is a company called Planetary Resources, who is planning on mining an asteroid of solid platinum. Estimmated at more tonnage than every oz mined on earth, ever. You bet there is also asteroids with gold. This somewhat distroys it's rarity. 20 years maybe?
We'll prefer btc also in space, on the moon, mars, as btc can be broadcasted through space. To buy some cheap platinum.
True but 2,000+ years of money status counts for something. Jewelry will get you laid. Now that is value.
Gold itself, and a reliable track record much longer than a 1000 years.
How long has Bitcoin been around?
How long had gold been around as a medium of exchange in 700 BC?
Fact is, if it has the properties of money, it is money. Stop being denialist faggots. Jesus you look like a bunch of retards high fiving each other after "disproving" the theory of gravity.
Gold has properties of money, but it is far from perfect money. It is not easily divisable: try to buy a hamburger with a gold Eagle. It is quite slow when exchanging it for goods over long distances.
No, gold is easily divisible. You can get gold grams, and even tiny fractions of gold grams for not too terribly much of a premium.
No, the property that seperates it from perfect money is the fact that it is a useful element. All these idiots who cite industrial uses to justify its use as money don't understand money. Good money can be hoarded in any amount without harming industry. Were all the gold in the world hoarded, it would be problematic for electronics (circuit boards use gold for its non-corrosiveness) and scientific applications (MALDI-TOF spectrometers, for example, use a solid gold target today worth more than the entire device itself). Bitcoin is good because it is so etherial that it has no purpose beyond that of a trade token.
The only thing it lacks at this point is a long history, which is reason enough not to invest in it. But that isn't the reason these idiots cite when they poo-poo it, broadcasting their complete and total and WILLFUL ignorance on the subject.
That's why gold dust is accepted in every store?
I recall a scene from Princess Mononoke where the hero tryed to buy a bag of rice with a small lump of gold. The idiot woman didn't even know what it was until a monk came by and appraised the value of the gold at ten bags of rice.
The moral of the story is that you shouldn't count on the absolute fucking morons that populate this world to tell you what is and what isn't ANYTHING, not just money. They are STUPID BEYOND COMPREHENSION.
Figure things out for yourself. The rest of the world will catch up eventually, but only after the vast, VAST majority of them have lost everything.
Or, maybe we'll get the Singularity before that happens and all this will be in vain.
So tell us. How many 1, 5, and 10 gram slips of gold do you have in your possession?
If you don't hold a substantial part of your gold in slips, then it's NOT "easily divisible".
tmosley, You are full of shit about the MALDI-TOF targets--the metal (gold, gold-palladium alloy, etc.) is typically sputtered onto a backing plate and is only about 10 nm thick & ~25 cm^2 in area. The instruments cost 100's of thousands of FRNs.
http://www.google.com/patents/US20030010908
That said, gold and silver have many scientific uses. A 50 nm gold layer on a biacore chip allows measurement in real time of a soluble antigen (e.g. a CAR T cell target) to an immobilized antibody or CAR construct. This allows one to fine tune the kinetic and affinity properties of your antibody binding domain. (to better target cancer cells or treat arthritis, etc.)
Silver has been used for decades to stain subnanogram amounts of proteins that have been separated via SDS-PAGE and platinum alloy electrodes create the electric field that allows separation. Other metals would corrode away and dissolve in the running buffer.
Bitcoin is a fascinating technology and I try to support the idea by owning a small position and using it to transact with counterparties willing to pay me in it or settle transactions for goods & services. It is NOT anonymous and I'm not trying to get rich. My motivation is to explore and facillitate new economic paradigms.
My most recent purchase in bitcoin was a TREZOR hardware wallet. This USB device has a screen and 2 buttons and it stores your private key(s). This is a key concept to BTC--you own BTC because you control the private key required to sign a transaction that transfers your BTC to another address. The TREZOR not only stores your private key, but it also signs the transaction safely--even if you are on a computer that is compromised with a keylogger.
What I find exciting is that a device like this (aside from providing the ultimate security of your BTC) can be used to securely sign other types or transactions such as logging into a website using ssh or proving that you control a certain private key. Or perhaps voting...? <cynicism> I doubt the PTB would ever allow this tech to be used for secure, auditable, online voting though--because then they would not be able to manipulate the results. </cynicism>
Here is a good read (warning: technical) for anyone that wants to learn more about bitcoin:
http://chimera.labs.oreilly.com/books/1234000001802/index.html
and info on the TREZOR (I'm just a customer):
https://www.bitcointrezor.com/
https://doc.satoshilabs.com/index.html
I agree that it gives some confidence, but the past is no guarantee for the future. I think nobody would put his savings into mussles anymore.
Very true,
But having a history where gold has successfully ptotected ones fortune over the long term (no matter how small or big) from inflation, does instill confidence.
Just to clarify, I am writing this wih a view that gold is an insurance policy during bad times and not an active investment.
I have nothing against Bitcoin, and have to admit that I am not up to speed with how it operates. Personally, it reminds me of a penny stock and all the associated risks.
So why comment on what you don't understand?
"Why did they leave out the parts that bitcoin has zero backing"
You simply show that you don't understand what the word "backing" means. I know it's hard, but please fucking educate yourself so you don't sound like the village idiot when you talk to people.
If you are still having problems, ask yourself "what is gold backed by?" and don't fucking say 10000 years of history or whatever other stupid shit you come up with. "Backing" means you can trade a note for some thing at a fixed rate. Gold has NO backing, and the fact that it is unbacked has NOTHING to do with its value.
The backing for a gold or silver coin is... the physical coin itself. That's the point... no need for any other/remote backing or counterparty.
The claim "gold and silver have no value or utility" is pure nonsense. The same statement goes for platinum, palladium, rhodium, titanium, nickel, copper, iron, lead, lumber and thousands of other materials.
The main value of gold is that it is useful in trade It is a trade token. Exactly like bitcoin. It's just that bitcoin exists as a universal ledger, while gold exists as atoms.Gold's only advantage is that it is a known quantity. We know with some precision how hard it is to steal, with thousands of years of precedent. We know how hard it is to steal bitcoin, with only a few years of precedent. Though some new means might spring forth allowing someone to steal your bitcoins, it is, with current technology and methods, actually much, much harder to steal than your gold, though to be fair, I could get either from you with a $5 wrench: https://xkcd.com/538/
"The backing for a gold or silver coin is... the physical coin itself".
No, you're wrong. Gold has no backing because it needs no backing. Gold is used to back other things that don't have the intrinsic properties gold possesses. Gold and silver are money because they possess more of the intrinsic properties required for money than anything else......until Bitcoin:
1. Portable - Bitcoin>Gold
2. Durable - Gold>Bitcoin
3. Divisible - Bitcoin>Gold
4. Sufficiently rare - Tie
5. Fungible - Bitcoin>Gold
6. Non-essential for consumption - Bitcoin>Gold
7. Easily identifiable - Tie
8. A store of value - Tie
Bitcoin 4, Gold 1, Tie 3
The Bitcoin Channel
Nice job laying out the qualities that actually make gold (and bitcoin) valuable to humans in the first place. Too bad some people around here doggedly ignore such facts and cling to their hyper-emotional views against all things digital without understanding the concepts involved in what money actually is.
Your Quote: "Sufficiently rare - Tie"
I take issue with this because it is essentially just the beginning of a fiat currency just like the dollar, first they said it was redeemable for gold, then they took the gold standard away, then they printed more and more and more.... and haven’t stopped... Now bitcoin is starting, they are only going to "create" so many coins... then just like the dollar, and from public pressure they will create more? Just like anything, I think one of the biggest problems with bitcoin, is they really arent rare... and if we want to decide they are not rare, we just decide to make more, it comes down to a decission, in reality they are still virtual? So they are not rare, individually maybe, but as a group, NO. With Gold on the other hand there is no feasible way to make more of it at this point. Think about the work you would do for a minecraft coin? Its not fucking unique? Only in your imagination maybe.
Human nature wont allow this to be "rare", Currently they wont even allow it with Silver and Gold? Its priced as if its abundant? and its not. They never let the dollar be rare and wont, they will go till they drive it into the ground.
Your Quote: "A store of value - Tie"
Disagree, It simply doesnt have enough of a track record to really know yet? Its really on the level of a currency or paper money and I wouldnt consider it a good "store" especially with the access issues that require the combination of electronic devices and power.
try walking around the shopping centres in asian countries... abundance of gold shops full of gold.. nobody buys it...
Gold is still a very liquid asset more liquid than most. We are currently at the height or very close to the height of fiat, so that might make sense. The pendulum is due to start heading in the other direction. We will see how long it will last.
Bitcoin is not a store of value. Bitcoin is LESS portable, unless you attempt the absurd claim the bit-pattern itself has value (absent memory, computer, etc).
You made me laugh when I read your attempt to claim LACK OF VALUE is a POSITIVE. That's precisely what you did under "non-essential". That's hilarious. What you're saying is "bitcoin is valuable because it has no value". Hahaha. Absolutely hilarious! I'll be getting a chuckle out of this one for weeks whenever I remember this. Very creative, even if absurd.
Also, bitcoin cannot even be identified at all without a computer, memory system, and possibly connection to a network (depending on situation). Which contradicts your fantasy that a bitcoin is infinitely portable because... it is nothing (just like any other fiat).
Also, bitcoin has ZERO VALUE in and of itself. One can make the argument that the ability of the bitcoin ecosystem for transmitting bitcoin cheaply and rather securely is a value, and even I agree with that much (given the dominance of predators-DBA-government in modern times). However, the bitcoin itself HAS NO VALUE... HAS NO UTILITY. The so-called "bitcoin" is simply a stream of binary bits. Indeed, even you will certainly admit that that stream of bits would be of ZERO USE WHATSOEVER if nobody ever invented or heard of "bitcoin". By your logic the SWIFT system is where the value is, not the "currency" transmitted by the SWIFT system. That's a foolish claim.
Your list is a typical PURPOSELY TWISTED advertising PR campaign, the likes of which is similar to a Monsanto ad for GMO food. You do yourself and bitcoin harm by adopting the bogus approach of fraudsters and shysters.
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PS: Computer geeks can invent endless numbers of bitcoin-like schemes, so even if bitcoin is never tweaked to expand the quantity of bitcoin, the total quantity of "fiat bit currency" remains unlimited. In contrast, you can't make gold that isn't gold, you can't make silver than isn't silver, you can't make atomic elements that aren't atomic elements. All advocates of fiat currencies, including bitcoin advocates, continue to think "money is a popularity contest" or "a rationalization contest". They are wrong. But have your fun, us advocates of "honest money" have no desire to stop you from playing the bitcoin game.
BTW, this doesn't mean that bitcoin or something like bitcoin doesn't have value as a "means of transmitting record of ownership" across vast distances cheaply and fairly securely. That IS a valuable service, I don't pretend it isn't. But this is almost exactly analogous to saying the SWIFT system has similar if not identical value. But in BOTH cases the VALUE is whatever REAL GOOD the ownership of which has been transmitted. And the value of the bitcoin transmission or SWIFT transmission is whatever fee people are willing to pay for that transmission service... NOT THE BITS THEMSELVES.
Like many issues, humans have terrible problems grasping category errors in many bitcoin claims.
What on earth are you blathering about?
Already into your second bottle tonight?
Bitcoin = Pets.com
Looks like they have a sock puppet, too.
The nigger will make false equivalencies.
A medium of exchange does not need 'backing'. Even now we don't demand Paypal has 'backing' We just need to know that stuff I ordered from China will be here in 2 weeks.
The idea that even our currencies need 'backing' is a reflex reaction that recalls the old days of the gold standard. They are doing OK (at least in terms of usage) with no ability to make a claim directly upon the central bank that creates them. If they were stable in terms of store of value function they'd be perfect...but they aren't...never will be. So currencies can't be used as stores of value.
The future of 'money' will see currencies survive and folks will find other ways to store wealth over the long haul....Ok maybe not our current currencies ...but the 'new dollar' should do fine...and the new new dollar too.
If you are sitting on gold what would you care if the government screwed up the currency every other week...you wouldn't. You could laugh. Every few months you'd sell some gold, buy the lasest currency and then buy your stuff.
I suspect as mining asteroids for precious metals becomes a reality, we will have to rethink of PM's as long term stores of value. Asteroid 2011 UW158 is suspected to have $5 trillion of platinum in it.
Ok, so that knocks platinum down to nothing 75 years from now. I won't be around and, for now, silver and gold still puts that tingle down my leg.
I'd love to see asteroid mining, because in order for it to be feasible, Au would have to be valued at 50x currently.
I generally agree with you. Bitcoin is a transactional medium, but the vast number of people "holding" it are doing so because they believe it's an investment and EXPECT a return.
PayPal on the other hand is strictly a transactional medium, people don't "hold" PayPal or expect a return.
Currency does need backing from countries, and that backing is generaly that the country or government will support the value their currency through goods and services, GDP, prosperity, and internal revenue (taxation).
Great examples where a country doesn't support its currency is Zimbabwe, and Venezuela and Argentina.
Support for a currency is similar to backing for a companies stock.
Gold will retain value in a localized collapse of a single country. However if a reserve currency fails, it will take the world with it. Gold will fall SUBSTANTIALLY, because they won't be an unaffected, outside market for gold.
That's why gold plummeted in October 2008, because that event affected the entire world. And, despite all the hand wringing, it wasn't a catastrophic event.
I handed PayPal my credit card #.
That's what backs PayPal.
No credit card, no PayPal.
Yes, sound money doesn't need "backing." That's why it is called sound. Gold, for example, doesn't need "backing." Nor does bitcoin. Both gold and bitcoin are valuable in their own right because they provide best-in-class service when used as money. Money provides a highly valuable service indeed (Valuable in terms of additional quantity produced of food, shelter, clothing, leisure compared to not using money).
Not too bright are you? What you descfibe applies to the dollar. True, the dollar is easier to use. It is also far more suceptible to overnight devaluation or confiscation. You pay a premium for using fiat currencies - it is just a premium you can ignore until you collect it.
I'm not too bright? Did you look at yourself in the mirror? Hahahahhahahha
It (the dollar) is also far more suceptible to overnight devaluation or confiscation
Tell us, when has the US dollar devaluated 40% in an hour? Bitcoin did two weeks ago. When did the US dollar lose 75% of it's value in a year? Bitcoin did 2 years ago.
And you're trying to tell me that the dollar isn't stable and Bitcoin IS? You are the epitome of "not too bright".