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The "Robin Hood" CEO Who Famously Raised His Employees' Minimum Wage To $70,000 Has A Dirty Secret

Tyler Durden's picture




 

When Gravity Payment's CEO Dan Price announced on April 13 that he would raise the minimum wage of his staff to $70,000 a year, the story went beyond viral: it took the media, especially the part of it which has been obsessing with income and wealth inequality which in the aftermath of Piketty would be most of it, by meteoric storm. Not only that, but the soon to be lionized young chief executive doubled down on this story of "purest of corporate nobility" by announcing he would cut his own compensation of $1.1 million to offset the cost.

Price’s story rocketed around the world, "a capitalist fairy tale to counter growing inequality." As Bloomberg's Karen Weise writes "with his tousled long hair and dark brown eyes, Price combined Brad Pitt’s smolder and Boo Boo Bear’s aw-shucks demeanor to become an articulate and attractive messenger. Rush Limbaugh denounced him as a socialist. Jesse Ventura christened him Robin Hood."

By 3 a.m. the morning after the announcement, Price’s phone was buzzing. The Today Show wanted him the next morning, as did Good Morning America. He hopped a plane to New York. “I did something like 25 live TV interviews in three days,” he says. “We are really passionate about reforming credit card processing. This seemed like an opportunity—we could have a really big impact doing that.”

Fox News pilloried him. Actor Russell Brand, in a laudatory YouTube video, joked, “It’s difficult to ignore the fact that Dan Price looks a lot like Jesus.”

Price signed with the talent agency William Morris Endeavor Entertainment and now charges as much as $20,000 per speech, Pirkle says. Price told his team that the company was getting free booth space at Inc. magazine’s annual conference, in addition to a speaking fee. “In terms of what they’re paying us for a one-hour talk, we’re looking at well over $100,000,” he said. Inc. put him on its November cover. (Inc. didn’t respond to requests for comment.)

The idea came to him, he later told the media, after talking to a friend who earned less than he did. He’d read about a study showing that extra income improves the happiness of people who earn less than about $75,000. "It’s not about making money; it’s about making a difference," Price told the Today Show, one of two dozen TV interviews he did in the days following the announcement.

When Price made his $70,000 announcement, he told his staff, “My pay is set based on market rates and kinda what it would take to replace me. And because of this growing inequality, as a CEO that amount is really, really high. I make, uh, you know, a crazy, uh, my compensation is really, really high."

Gravity staffers plank during meetings to encourage each other to speak quickly.

 

As he’s recounted over and over, Price says his aha moment about pay came in late March, on the hike with his friend. “I realized that there were people I was working with—that I said I valued as partners, I said I really want to invest in—and they were making less than her,” he told The Daily Show’s Trevor Noah.

Overnight, he became the hero of progressives everywhere demanding lower CEO pay and higher worker pay.

And if his story was true, he could have indeed become the poster child for corporate nobility in an age of runaway executive pay.

Unfortunately for Dan Price's enthralled fans and adoring media supporters, as a must-read expose by Bloomberg's Karen Weise which digs below the surface of what now appear to have been very hollow words reveals, Price had a dirty secret revealing that his true motives were far different than what he disclosed repeatedly on prime time TV.

The lawsuit.

In the summer, the New York Times ran a longer piece on Price, now 31, showing that raising wages wasn’t so simple. Job applicants had overwhelmed his company, and two employees quit, saying the increase wasn’t fair to higher earners. “Potentially the worst blow of all,” the Times wrote, was that about two weeks after the announcement, Price was sued by his older brother Lucas, who owns about 30 percent of Gravity, alleging Price paid himself too much in the first place. Price insinuated that his brother may have sued in reaction to the generous pay increase. “I know the decision to pay everyone a living wage is controversial,” he told the Seattle Times, which first reported the lawsuit. “I deeply regret the rift this has caused in my relationship with my brother.”

The important detail here to remember is that suing Price was none other than his brother, Lucas, co-founder of the company.

As Weise continues, "an expensive lawsuit, filed possibly in response to his kind act, made Price seem more of an underdog."

When I met him at Gravity’s headquarters in mid-October, he wasn’t even supposed to be in Seattle. He’d been scheduled to join Planned Parenthood President Cecile Richards and General David Petraeus on a panel titled “Leading Under Pressure” at the Chicago Ideas Week festival. But Price had canceled at the last minute, saying he’d hit a wall of exhaustion. “I think I’m just standing in for a bunch of other people doing great stuff,” he said. “To me the responsibility is to be the best spokesperson I can.”

 

As we talked about his wild six months, I brought up the lawsuit, asking if Price thought Gravity’s spending on the raises triggered his brother’s suit, as he’d implied. “I have no idea,” he slowly shrugged, looking right at me. “The quote in the Seattle Times from his attorney was, ‘It wasn’t only because of that.’?” He twisted his beard between two fingers, contemplating the statement by Lucas’s attorney, Greg Hollon. “That one singular quote in the paper is the only information I have about if they were connected or not.”

And now, some 8 months after the story first broke, the truth about Price's true motives emerges:

It’s a poignant story, one that I almost wrote. Until I realized Price knew more than he was letting on. The lawsuit couldn’t have been prompted by the pay raise—if anything, it may have been the other way around. And his salary before the big announcement was unusually high. As I read through the court record and media reports, I began to see how Price was writing his own origin myth one interview at a time. With what he says is a $500,000 book deal, he’s solidifying his place as the next do-gooder businessman, joining the CEOs of bigger companies, such as Zappos’s Tony Hsieh and Whole Foods Market’s John Mackey. In the process, he’s surely become the only credit card processing executive to be feted by Esquire, courted by literary agents, and swooned at by women on social media who declared him “yum.” But how it all happened is a little more complicated.

Actually it not that complicated. As it turns out, the wage hike for his employees and his own personal wage cut was merely a self-defense measure in response to the lawsuit that had been filed before, not after, his stunning announcement. A measure that was wrapped in an unprecedented and carefully constructed media campaign designed to make him the hero. Here's Bloomberg crushing the progressive's image of their own personal corporate Jesus:

Two weeks after returning from the April media blitzkrieg in New York, Price told me, he was settling in at home to finally unwind. “I was going to watch my first soccer game since this had all happened,” he recalled. “My doorbell rang, and there was a legal courier. ‘Are you Dan Price?’ ‘Yes.’ ” Price said he was served with Lucas’s lawsuit. “I was shocked,” he said. “The soccer game got turned off pretty quickly.” It was during this recounting that Price told me how the comment from Lucas’s lawyer in the Seattle Times was the “only information I have about if they were connected or not.”

 

The possible retaliatory nature of the suit only adds to the drama of Price’s wage hike. “This is all speculation on my part,” Pirkle said in late September, before explaining how, as minority shareholder, Lucas gets paid dividends from Gravity’s profits. “Those profits are obsolete when you raise the wages. His brother’s, like, ‘That’s my money.’ ”

 

Pirkle suggested to me that the lawsuit could be part of a broader narrative about the purpose of business: “Is it to maximize shareholder returns? Or is it to best serve the customers and provide for employees?” Inc. hypothesized that Lucas filed the lawsuit after the pay increase “perhaps to pressure Dan to sell when Gravity was in the limelight, thus maximizing the value of Lucas’s share.”

There is just one big problem with all those scenarios: as Weise discovered, the lawsuit predates the raise.

Lucas did file the case two weeks after Price’s announcement, but according to court records, Price was served with the suit at his house on the afternoon of March 16—about two weeks before the fabled hike with his friend and almost a month before the wage increase announcement. Washington state allows litigants to serve a defendant before a suit is filed with the court. Hollon, Lucas’s attorney, says Price informed his brother of the pay hike with an e-mail on April 9, only five days before the New York Times and NBC descended on Seattle.(Pirkle said that in a later document, Lucas “specifically referenced” the wage hike as grounds for the case. Hollon responded that the May document added the pay increase as “one of the potential factual bases supporting the claims in the lawsuit” since “the wage program appeared to be a reaction by Dan to the lawsuit.”)

 

 

The lawsuit is light on details, but it claims that Price “improperly used his majority control of the company” to overpay himself, in the process reducing what Lucas was due. “Daniel’s actions have been burdensome, harsh and wrongful, and have shown a lack of fair dealing toward Lucas,” the suit alleges. It asks for unspecified damages and that Price buy out Lucas’s interest in Gravity. Hollon said the lawsuit was the culmination of “years” of efforts to resolve Lucas’s concerns. Price “on several occasions suggested to Lucas that if Lucas didn’t like Dan’s actions regarding Lucas’s rights as a shareholder, Lucas should seek legal remedies,” Hollon wrote in an e-mail. “Prior to the lawsuit, Dan had made clear that he would only engage with Lucas through Lucas’s counsel.”

Weise then asks the $70,000 question: "if the lawsuit wasn’t a reaction to the wage hike, could it have been the other way around? After all, Price announced his magnanimous act a month after his brother sued him for, in essence, being greedy. Lowering his pay could give Price negotiating leverage, too. “With profits, at least in the short term, shifted to salaries, there is little left over to buy out his brother,” the New York Times reported Price said.

She confronts Price with this discovery:

In a follow-up interview in mid-November, I pressed Price about the inconsistency. How could what he told me about being served two weeks after announcing the raise be true when the court records indicated otherwise?

 

“Umm, I’m not, I have to look,” he said.

 

The court document, I said, definitely says March 16.

 

“I am only aware of the suit being initiated after the raise,” he replied.

 

“The court record shows you being served on March 16 ... at 1:25 p.m.,” I said. “And actually, your answer to it was dated April 3,” also before the pay hike.

 

I am only aware of the suit being initiated after the raise,” he repeated.

 

I asked again how that could be, saying the declaration of service shows Price was served with the complaint, the summons, and other documents, “that you are a male, who is white, age 30, 5-feet-8-inches, medium height, dark hair.”

 

He paused for 20 seconds. “Are you there?” he asked, then twice repeated his statement that he was only aware of the suit being initiated in late April. “I’d be happy to answer any other questions you may have,” he added.

Any other questions, of course, except the one about the smoking gun which crushes his entire narrative of generous Robin Hood corporate CEO into pulp.

We doubt any of the fawning media outlets that chased Price in April and subsequently will care to point out this unpleasant outlier to the convenient narrative he had created for himself.

And while the date of the original lawsuit explains Price's "generosity", another secret may explain his desire for admiration and public adulation, one which if proven to be true, may quickly change Price's public profile from one corporate saint into a personal demon. Here is Weise's second revelation:

Price’s life may get more complicated the week of Dec. 7, when TEDx plans to post online a public talk by his former wife, who changed her last name to Colón. She spoke on Oct. 28 at the University of Kentucky about the power of writing to overcome trauma. Colón stood on stage wearing cerulean blue and, without naming Price, read from a journal entry she says she wrote in May 2006 about her then-husband. “He got mad at me for ignoring him and grabbed me and shook me again,” she read. “He also threw me to the ground and got on top of me. He started punching me in the stomach and slapped me across the face. I was shaking so bad.” Later in the talk, Colón recalled once locking herself in her car, “afraid he was going to body-slam me into the ground again or waterboard me in our upstairs bathroom like he had done before.”

 

I read those quotes to Price. “I’m just going to take a second because this is very surprising to me,” he said. He paused. “I appreciate and respect my former wife, and she played a very positive role in my life,” he said. “Out of respect for her, I wouldn’t feel comfortable responding to a supposed allegation she may have said coming from a Bloomberg Businessweek reporter when I have absolutely zero evidence of an allegation being made.” I told him that I wanted to be clear: I was giving him the chance to deny the claims. “My comment is very responsive,” he said. “I would be more than happy to provide a comment if and when I actually get the benefit of seeing what you are referencing.”

 

About three hours later, Price called back. “There’s one more thing that I would like to add to my previous statement,” he said. “The events that you described never happened.”

 

One aspect of Price’s saga is certain: Seventy employees at Gravity now earn far more than they did before. Was it altruism or a costly lawsuit that motivated it? If his book doesn’t provide answers, perhaps Lucas’s case, which goes to trial in May, will.

And, Weise ignored to add because it is self-explanatory, if these allegations going to Price's true motives, and his spousal abuse are proven correct, all those very generous wage hikes will prove quite transitory as Gravity Payment's clients desert the company one by one, leading to the company's collapse. We wonder if the generous CEO will then take money out of his own bank account to bankroll the insolvent company and provide the needed funding for payroll and keeping his remaining employees happy, or he will simply max out his own compensation in as the company crashes and burns?

Much more in the full article from Bloomberg Businessweek 

 

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Tue, 12/01/2015 - 20:31 | 6863395 Fester
Fester's picture

The wheels on the bus go round and round

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 20:36 | 6863417 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Dem wheels be coming off soon.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 20:41 | 6863439 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

We can do worse than a con-man with a heart, a lot worse.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 20:44 | 6863446 OrangeJews
OrangeJews's picture

What happened?  I stopped reading after "Russell Brand".

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:16 | 6863568 whotookmyalias
whotookmyalias's picture

Agreed Ignatius.  I don't get the point of this expose.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:57 | 6863704 booboo
booboo's picture

Not enough pictures?

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:15 | 6863766 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

It's propaganda....

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:16 | 6863770 Uchtdorf
Uchtdorf's picture

Somebody please tell me where this guy ties in to Corzine's family tree.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:25 | 6863800 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

Agreed Ignatius.  I don't get the point of this expose.

 

And don't say anything bad about "Uncle Joe" either?

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:31 | 6863814 Beatscape
Beatscape's picture

To get to the punch line for those too lazy to read a few paragraphs -- Gravity Payment's CEO Dan Price physically beat his wife on multiple occasions (who subsequently divorced him), paid himself an exorbitant  ~$1 million / year salary and was therefore sued by his brother (who co-founded the company), then, after being served by his brother, he creates the ultimate red herring by lowering his salary and raising the salaries of his employees to make himself look like a saint to simply distract from him being a con man and a sociopath.  So far, his strategy has worked pretty well since he's become a media darling and now commands $20,000 per speech.  That might change the week of Dec. 7, when TEDx plans to post online a public talk by his former wife.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:38 | 6863845 nmewn
nmewn's picture

And...all of us here at ZH will eagerly await ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, CNBC, Charlie Rose, PBS, Democracy Now, Bloomberg & Huff-Po's follow up stories, it should be riveting reading!!!

(Crickets) ;-)

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:44 | 6863875 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Rumor goes, his last name was originally Pricedashian.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:55 | 6863922 Son of Loki
Son of Loki's picture

Another left wing liberal hypocrit.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 08:05 | 6864818 The Limerick King
The Limerick King's picture

And to all the progressive idiots above who don't get what all the fuss is about...you make me sick.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 09:59 | 6865160 kralizec
kralizec's picture

Prog behavior often exhibits reactions akin to putting a finger down your throat.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 02:33 | 6864492 Nobody For President
Nobody For President's picture

As If testimony of his former wife is writ in gold.

Especially when her former husband has  become really rich.

I have a former wife, who fed my young son as he grew up incredible tales of how bad I was to her.

As a young adult, he began to have difficulties reconciling this lying shit with my second wife and son, and our life together,

and as a mature adult a lot of other lying shit emerged,and we have become very good friends - it was a long haul.

Testimony of ex-wifes, especially if a rich former husband is involved, has zero fucking credibility with me.

And fuck you pussies for buying into her almost certainly well-coached shit.

It's about money, assholes.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 04:58 | 6864633 Fiat Envy
Fiat Envy's picture

A lot of people here put pussy on a pedestal.  If there was violence the odds are better than 50/50 that she was the violent one.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 11:29 | 6865582 FrankDrakman
FrankDrakman's picture

I'm not suggesting egregious violence against ANYONE, male or female, is acceptable, but...

.. if a woman is nagging and berating and belittling her husband in HIS home, and won't stop despite repeated requests, what are a man's options?

  1. Leave HIS home
  2. Call the police, and after they've finished laughing at him (openly or not), they MIGHT come by, and their recommendation will be: the man leave HIS home (happened to me!)
  3. .. or the man acts in the way of men since time immemorial - he has a long fuse, but when it reaches powder, he grabs her, smacks (not beats) her (and there is a helluva difference), and tells her to STFU. 

I know it's not politically correct to suggest this, but if, as university students are telling us now, wearing someone else's hat is a 'micro-aggression', then how much "aggression" is there in a woman's continued insults, invective, and indignities, and at what point is physical violence (again, as the university students practice) justified to make her stop?

My GF is a family lawyer. She knows that a woman's testimony "He beat me!" is often - not always, of course, there are absolute beasts out there and I'm not defending them - part of a negotiating strategy designed to strengthen her position and weaken his. 

Bottom line for me: no hospital records, no before/after pictures with the bruises (in this day of selfies?) = no case. 

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 08:58 | 6864922 GoBadgers
GoBadgers's picture

"About three hours later, Price called back. “There’s one more thing that I would like to add to my previous statement,” he said. “The events that you described never happened.”

So instead of denying it as soon as he was confronted, which the normal person would do, he waits 3 hours to say "the bitch is lying".

 

I get that you had a bad first marriage and you believe every ex-wife is a crazy bitch who wants to get revenge, but you're a complete fucknut to not see through this. 


Wed, 12/02/2015 - 09:10 | 6864968 spanish inquisition
spanish inquisition's picture

Yup, three hours is plenty of time to leave a message for your lawyer, have him call back,  discuss the interview and call back with the best answer.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:32 | 6863617 R19
R19's picture

I have no fucking idea.  I scrolled down and saw that sexy pic of him wearing the hoodie that says 'Life's Swell' and I was done.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:46 | 6863662 Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

" We fooled some folks. "

 

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 23:09 | 6863980 Cruel Aid
Cruel Aid's picture

Boy that line works all day, every day these days.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:50 | 6863675 insanelysane
insanelysane's picture

Let me sum up.

CEO says he has a heart, lowers his pay, raises his worker's pay, and then his greedy brother sued him for doing it.

What actually seems to have happened.

CEO of marginal company that should have had a salary between $250k-$350k was paying himself over $1 million a year.

Wife leaves him, brother serves him lawsuit stating he makes too much and other irregularities.

CEO then comes out with lowering his pay and raising workers salary.  This move destroys company's profitability which screws wife and brother.

Lawsuit paperwork finally gets through red tape and is officially marked as filed even though lawsuit was submitted prior to the salary change.

CEO gets interviews, praise, and book deal for screwing over ex-wife and brother.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:20 | 6863775 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Bravo. Book-A-Minute Classics (must read!) would be proud!

With the warning that you might regurgitate lunch, read the "Dan's Message" section from their website:

http://gravitypayments.com/danprice

Quote excerpt: "

“I never want to make screw-you money like the rest of the financial services industry.”

lol...

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:40 | 6864283 ASACJon
ASACJon's picture

Color me surprised!

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:53 | 6863689 Escrava Isaura
Escrava Isaura's picture

 

 

Jesus, propaganda, and lies.

 

Followed by fairytales posts based in mistaken believes like Bryan

 

Talking about enlightened society.

 

“When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat.” — George Carlin

 

 

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:10 | 6863747 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Yeah, like Soros the progressives, ahem...the socialists...really ate it up at the time.

Cool huh? ;-)

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:33 | 6863826 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Well, there is a difference between watching the freak show and actively participating in it.

Miffed

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:17 | 6863569 Gordon Freeman
Gordon Freeman's picture

Oh, Jeez--I'd like to have a drink with that guy...

TD, c'mon, there's enough really bad shit out there--don't pick on the poor bastard you caught stealing out of the collection plate. I'll bet you've done far worse...

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:57 | 6863630 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

Anyone that wants the limelight as much as this guy has covetted the limelight, will alter his behaviour to get the limelight.

CEO with a penchant for being a star rather than a penchant for wanting money.

Both are gravy sucking scum....

 

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:18 | 6863528 JuliaS
JuliaS's picture

Remember that time Jesus ran a usury collection business?

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:27 | 6863805 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

Has Jesus stopped beating his wife?

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:55 | 6863924 Fukushima Fricassee
Fukushima Fricassee's picture

I remember the time he kicked the shit out of the money changers in the temple and told them to get out of his father house. My favorite biblical reference by far.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 23:02 | 6863953 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

I believe that was Julia's reference with a clever twist.

Miffed

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 23:22 | 6864035 Escrava Isaura
Escrava Isaura's picture

 

 

Good luck getting “Clever Twist” across.

 

Sorry. I couldn't help expanding in your pain.

 

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:43 | 6864289 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

The money changers were not money lenders so usury doesn't apply although a high premium was certainly charged for their services. The money changers exchanged Roman coins which declared the Emperor to be god and therefore couldn't be use for temple donations for Hebrew coinage which was appropriate for temple donations. The crime as Jesus saw it was that Jews lived a Roman lifestyle six days a week but tried to fool God on the Sabbath by switching their currency. The temple priests must have also been complicit as they would have received the Hebrew coinage as donations and then sold it back to the money changers so that they would have more to distribute on the next Sabbath.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 07:53 | 6864794 Escrava Isaura
Escrava Isaura's picture

 

 

The posts were not about your point but you do have an interesting theory there.  I have to research ‘switching” more before I can comment on it.

 

But thanks anyway.

 

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 11:34 | 6865602 FrankDrakman
FrankDrakman's picture

And here's the best part: whether the money changers were buying the coins, or selling the coins, they still got the commission!

Bet two of them were named Randolph and Mortimer...

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 11:58 | 6865708 azusgm
azusgm's picture

Billy, I gave you that uppy. You are correct, but it is worse than that.

Unless I am mistaken, the money changers were, if not priests, at least Levites. (All priests were Levites, but not all Levites were priests.) I don't want to accidentally overstate the case, but I am pretty sure they were priests.

The priests also had another racket going with the animals for sacrifice. The sacrificial animals were supposed to be without blemish or spot. Common practice was to inspect the animals that the worshipers would bring and declare them unfit. The distances that many of the worshipers had to travel often made it unrealistic to bring their own animals so they would purchase animals after reaching Jerusalem. The temple priests owned large herds. They would sell sacrificial animals for ridiculous prices to what was an essentially captive audience.

Some of the families were poor. Whether poor or wealthy, none of the worshipers should have been treated unfairly. Ill treatment of the poor was one point that Jesus taught against repeatedly.

During Jesus's time and earlier under the rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the succession of the high priest was controlled by the secular ruler. Ascension to the office of the high priest was determined by bribes. The high priest was a corrupt usurper. In turn, the high priest was able to sell appointments. Men seeking the high priesthood were essentially candidates who gathered up political donations from corrupt hangers-on seeking appointment to temple "service".

Familiar?

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 20:35 | 6863408 Fukushima Fricassee
Fukushima Fricassee's picture

Looks like Jesus? WTF? Looks like some bull shit rendition turning a tough ass carpenter into a fucking metro sexual for public consumption is more like it.

 

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 20:41 | 6863438 Lumberjack
Lumberjack's picture

Now for religion. The greatest fraud of all including Global Warming which is a legal religion in many places. This is an absolute must see and also see the followup. Watch the segment of how an IRS official explains how it works. I now posit the Tylers to form the Church of ZH...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg

Here is the follow up…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTZobo9VbS4

U.S. tax law allows television preachers to get away with almost anything. We know this from personal experience.

Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption will not be able to accept donations from Church supporters from the states of Mississippi, Nevada, Pennsylvania, or South Carolina. 

 

Note that the church was shut down voluntarily recently (As this was to demonstrate how the fraud works) and the monetary donations recieved went to Doctors Without Borders....

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 20:58 | 6863514 nmewn
nmewn's picture

So if I get the gist of where you're trying to go, you want THE STATE to be supreme over church & religion?

It's a well recognized concept that THE STATE has no authority over a church...any church...historically it's the only sanctuary left to a man from THE STATE. Tax exemption is the embodiment of that concept.

I think if we can allow EBT carholders to get cash from ATM's outside titty bars we can allow churches to remain untaxed, don't you? ;-)

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:14 | 6863560 ILoveDebt
ILoveDebt's picture

That last argument is a bit of a strawman, but I do agree with you there should be some sanctuary from the state.  Unfortunately, religion is almost always a state within a state, and has it's own baggage that is not copaceitc to free people. 

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:32 | 6863616 nmewn
nmewn's picture

If you read between the lines "his take" is all religion/churches are frauds by his pointing out ONE was a fraud, that is the definition of strawman...so...an eye for an eye.

But as we peel the onion (or straws) back (lol) is it better for the average person to have no sanctuary from the state (or an abusive church by going to the state for sanctuary under it's law...think pedophile) than to have no recourse at all?

I say "average person" cuz, ya know, my preference is to kill the evil and let God sort it out but I'm trying to be "reasonable" ;-)

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:42 | 6863649 toxic8
toxic8's picture

nmewn... with that oh so mysterious avatar. always winking, like you're in on some joke... HeHe...

 

is that a fawkes mask

OR

hassidic rabbi sporting some fancy payot curls?

 

;^)

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:52 | 6863686 nmewn
nmewn's picture

A tad stale don't you think?...with me, ya know, defending, ya know...Christianity and all? Couldn't you just call me a "talmudist kiddie fiddler!" and make an even bigger ass out of yourself?...lol.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 23:04 | 6863952 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

You are a dishonest fuck, Toxic8.

 

You know Science Damned well that the avatar is a Guy Hawkes mask

 

So now, since you are a spineless protoplasmic wonder...This one is for you

 

A spineless protoplasm named Toxic8

Looked for a new way to masterbate

Amazed his mouth could surround

His own penis, he found.

Thus proceeded to learn how to autofellate

 

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:56 | 6863691 ILoveDebt
ILoveDebt's picture

The guilt by association argument has merit when a perceived majority is either quiet with respect to the crimes of their like or are actively engaged in denying or covering up said crimes.  As to your question, is it better to have no sanctuary than to have sanctuary from at least some authoritative organization.... maybe.  But the end result of that situation is that either you are snuffed out or your competitor is as neither are tolerarnt of the other.  That is the end result of all fanaticism. 

 

If we are to survive and thrive as a species, we must stop carrying about the self destructive acts of others.  If you want to have an abortion and kill off your genetic line, more power to you.  If you can't keep up with the pace of modern society because it is intellectually challenging, sorry about your luck.  If you are a religious zealot or any kind of zealot that believe that your way is the only way to live and your are ostracized by hte rest of society to live in caves somewhere -- well I can only hope that one happens.  

 

The point is that we frame religion as the other end of the spectrum from government control when they are really the same thing.  Both tend to curb liberty based off of arbritrary "rules".  A working utopia isnn't one where both are couterbalances to the power of each corrupt institution.  A true utiopia is one where civil minded individuals are allowed to compete on a level playing field with the sociopaths that are drawn to public offices of power.  It is a world where indiividual thought is considdred and wieghted against the public good and not against corporate insterests.  It is a world that conceded that the morals of a people long since dead might not be the basis for literal laws written today.  

 

Would I elemeinate both religion and government at the same time?  No.  But I won't support one orgainization that wants to exert control over me anymore than I will another, no matter what their goals are.  

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:00 | 6863716 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well, thats a lot of words just to get to the point of religion is voluntary unless it's forced BY THE STATE, which it's not here.

With THE STATE, it's not voluntary at all, is it? 

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 10:27 | 6865283 TuPhat
TuPhat's picture

Thank you nmewn.  Coherent short and correct.  The many words above are unfortunately incorrect and come from a confused person.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 11:38 | 6865617 FrankDrakman
FrankDrakman's picture

I upvoted you, but I have to point out that in certain parts of the world right now, e.g. Syria, the religious choice isn't exactly voluntary. 

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:57 | 6863705 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

 all religion/churches are frauds by his pointing out ONE was a fraud

 

So you did not watch the video.

 

No...Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, an HBO Production, first pokes criticism toward many televangelists.

 

Then John gets a brilliant idea...

 

Watch both videos, get a good laugh, and then comment.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:54 | 6863918 still kicking
still kicking's picture

Well that is just an ignorant statement.....You can use the EBT INSIDE the titty bar!

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 23:29 | 6864052 Krumnoltzwitsky
Krumnoltzwitsky's picture

I understand that you are sayig the state has no authority over the church, and you're correct in that regard. However, tax exemption was a way for the state to gain control of the churches via 501(c)(3). An unincorporated body of people who congregate and fellowship together isn't taxable in the first place. Yes, each person would pay income tax, but not the fellowship in its own right. So applying to be exempt from tax isn't necessary... unless for some reason they decide to incorporate (and thereby subject themselves to the state's corporations laws, something that shouldn't happen according to Scripture). The only reason that a church incorporates is to allow itself to own property, take out loans, etc (something that a church shouldn't do in the first place if you look at the New Testament). Some light reading for you today: http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/501-church.html

Let me know what you think.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:21 | 6863580 WTFUD
WTFUD's picture

'Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption ' , Lumber, sounds like a Goldman Sucks Fund of Funds or some poor sucker's earnings being dished out to his ex, despite her being twice married since.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:59 | 6863711 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

Enjoy some satire and watch the videos.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 20:45 | 6863457 GhostOfDiogenes
GhostOfDiogenes's picture

My God carries a hammer.
Your god got nailed to a cross.

Any questions?

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 20:50 | 6863482 unrulian
unrulian's picture

Um yea, is your god Thor?

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:28 | 6863608 CPL
CPL's picture

Jesus promised to get rid of all the wicked people. Odin promised to get rid of all the ice giants. I don't see any ice giants, do you?

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:50 | 6863667 GhostOfDiogenes
GhostOfDiogenes's picture

Whenever I'm in doubt, I ask myself, " what would jesus do."

Then I remember he got crucified, so his decision making skills obviously weren't brilliant.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:56 | 6863699 nmewn
nmewn's picture

How odd, whenever I'm in doubt I remember what Mooohamid and his followers actually did and it removes any doubt.

Isn't that something? ;-)

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:32 | 6863823 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

One word: Auto-da-fé.

Or is that three words? In any case it's an unholy trinity.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 23:05 | 6863969 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Is the Islamic conquest of the ME, North Africa, India, Asia Minor and really all the way down into the SE archipelago of Malaysia some sort of weird black memory hole for you?  

All those people had separate cultures & religions Crockett, they were put (quite involuntarily) to Islams sword and that wasn't Jesus or His teachings, makes the statists acting in "His name" during the Inquisition kinda pale in comparison doesn't it?

One word for you, Mongols, people will get fed up with it at some point and the gates of hell will open.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 23:33 | 6864054 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

But Christians did burn Jews and others alive in the town square as an "Act of Faith." Christians also forcibly converted millions of people on multiple continents. Those who live by the historical account will die by the historical account, to paraphrase an interesting old book.

Whatever you are trying to imply about Islam based on the acts of some of those who claim to act on their faith must be equally applied to Christians who behaved in the same manner, assuming that you don't want to be a hypocrite.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 23:44 | 6864113 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I believe I acknowledged the Inquisition was carried out by statists acting in their own self interest, mostly to get rid of rivals and to ingratiate themselves with the state but it had nothing to do with Jesus.

If you will recall, Jesus did not take up the sword against the Quraysh of Mecca, that was "some other dude" carrying a sword with an army.

Very peaceful, yes? ;-)

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:13 | 6864178 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

Jesus and Mohammad are not equivalents. Mohammad was a prophet while Jesus was said to be the Son of God. Compare Mohammad to those who prophesied for Christ (or the Hebrew prophets) and you'll see plenty of swordplay (perhaps brought about by Jesus' own call to attack others with swords). Christianity got its greatest boost when Emperor Constantine saw a cross in the heavens accompanied by the voice of God saying, "In this sign, conquer." Rivers of blood have been spilled since that day in the name of Jesus.

If crimes committed by those who misinterpret or exploit Islam make Islam a bad religion in your opinion then you'd have to say the same about Christianity in order to not be a hypocrite.

Allah says: “Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 256]

 

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:26 | 6864246 Seek_Truth
Seek_Truth's picture

There you go again with the loose-use of the term "Christian".

You really think Constantine was anything more than an opportunist who attempted to hijack true Christianity?

If so- you're not alone- millions have fallen for that "Christianity."

I honestly can't believe how many otherwise intelligent posters on Z H have a leaning towards being apologists for Islam and it's message of hate.

You atheists are a confused bunch.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:30 | 6864261 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

I'm not so confused that I claim that those who kill for Christ aren't really Christians but those who kill for Allah are true Muslims. If you can't see that you're playing a game with yourself I don't know what to tell you.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 07:41 | 6864778 nmewn
nmewn's picture

If you're looking for hypocrisy look no further than yourself for sidestepping the fact that the Arabs (united by the creation of Islam) murdered & swept across entire continents subjugating the peoples therein before "the pious" Mooohamid was even good & cold in his grave.

There is no comparison Crockett, they did exactly what he taught them to do.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 13:16 | 6866116 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

I oppose all initiation of violence. You disapprove of Muslim initiation of violence but give Christians a pass by making excuses for those who kill in the name of Christ. You're the hypocrite.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:51 | 6864304 moonshadow
moonshadow's picture

Huh!? Say what Billy? Jesus never told us to attack others with swords! What are you talking about. Are you getting that from what he said about "not coming to send peace, but a sword"? If so, you are distorting that meaning. It is agreed widely that that text means a splitting asunder/ a dividing. The Jewish people were expecting a time of peace under the Messiah, which they hoped He'd would be in their time. But for then He was the suffering messiah, and a prophet of His own death and resurrection, witnessed by scores of people. And those who chose to follow Him would choose a life of possible persecution, as He said- "If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you...they will treat you this way because of my name." And so it has been for His followers since that time. And today, look around the world- the persecution continues and seems to be increasing- especially in Islamic countries, where the sword takes off Christian heads. The homes they live in in Iraq are painted on their walls with an 'N' arabic symbol for 'Nazarene', denoting that Christians live there. Sound familiar if you know your history? As for Mohammad, i will be kind and merely say that he was an asshole. Take a look at what his followers do in his name. Read the q'uran sometime and you will know just WHY they do those things and why so many 'moderate' muslims would opt for sharia law if they had the power to impose it on us 'infidels'. It's time we started calling Them the infidels and see how they like the truth.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:48 | 6864287 moonshadow
moonshadow's picture

*

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:51 | 6864315 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

Are you getting that from what he said about "not coming to send peace, but a sword"? If so, you are distorting that meaning.

 

It's not a matter of me distorting that quote but rather how some so-called Christians have interpreted Jesus' call to attack others with a sword or his entreaty to be good slaves. Just as with the Koran some passages of the Bible can be taken out of context and used to justify all sorts of horrors. Why is it so hard for folks to wrap their heads around this simple concept?

Remember the Son of Sam? He thought his neighbor's dog told him to kill. Now, the dog didn't really say anything but some folks hear what they want to hear regardless of the actual content of a sermon (or midnight howling in Sam's case) and do whatever the hell they want to do based on that "justification."

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 01:01 | 6864345 moonshadow
moonshadow's picture

HUh!? You wrote 'Jesus' call to attack others with a sword or his entreaty to be good slaves.' Where in the world are you getting this stuff? I think I already addressed the first misrepresentation. Now for the 'be good slaves' thing- I'm going to make a guess that you are taking a verse from a Pauline letter? And if so, He's not requesting them to Become slaves. He's addressing slaves who are already in that position. Just as he addressed soldiers, children, the oppressed and persecuted, people of the future, and other groups. Each of us has his challenge. I'm certainly glad mine doesnt include being part of the persecuted Christian church in many countries around the world

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 01:07 | 6864357 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

So you simply can't comprehend my assertion that some people have misunderstood those parables even though you're saying that I've misunderstood those parables?

 

How much more plainly can I say it?

 

Some

people

misinterpret

the

Bible

and

the

Koran

and

what

dogs

supposedly

say

and

do

bad

things

because

of

it.

 

Is

that

clear?

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 01:40 | 6864402 moonshadow
moonshadow's picture

So you are going to claim that, when you wrote what I quoted of you, all written above, you were just saying what 'some people' claim. Hmmm- I reread your words and im finding that to be quite a stretch in this case. I do see where you advise applying the same standards to both religions however. If you do that, then the teachings of Jesus advise peace, forgiveness, love, being a good neighbor-even to those with whom you disagree, etc. The teachings of Mohammed, however, are starkly different- hatred, lying, manipulation, killing, retribution, assault, and subjugation of others. If Christians act on their founders words we have a pretty good world, not perfect because none of us are, but pretty good. if Muslims act on Mohammed's words we get what we are seeing around the world

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 01:48 | 6864427 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

You still fail to understand that taken literally the words of Jesus do instruct his followers to attack others with a sword.

I have been trying to make a point about the improper literal interpretation of figurative language in both the Bible and the Koran. I see the point continues to be lost on you.

I have also presented verses from the Koran which specifically state that religion is a matter of choice which should not be forced on anyone. I see that this point also continues to elude you.

I'm sorry but I just can't speak any more slowly than this. You'll have to either keep up with me or not.

As an afterthought let me add that I'm getting tired and my patience is short. I've enjoyed our talk.

 

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 10:49 | 6865374 moonshadow
moonshadow's picture

You just Cannot. CANNOT, read the Quran and then being honest about it, come away thinking that Mohammed meant another Other than FORCING his ways and ideology on to all the peoples he Conquered by the sword. The very word Islam means SUBMISSION! just look at what the followers of islam DO and you will see the fruits of the Quran. On the other hand, you keep asserting that Jesus advised attacking with the sword. I have explained to you that He did Not and you keep reasserting without proof or reference, resorting instead to personal comments

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 13:19 | 6866131 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

Yes, Islam means "submission to God" whereas Israel means "he fights against God." As a religious person which of those strategies seems best to you?

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 15:17 | 6866721 moonshadow
moonshadow's picture

You said earlier "I have been trying to make a point about the improper literal interpretation of figurative language in both the Bible and the Koran." Well, you just improperly interpretted. Islam means 'Submission'. Just that. You can interpret it to mean submission to allah if you want. But just look at the history of Mohammed and Islam and it becomes clear that it means submission by Force or Coercion to Islam and to the Quran for ALL- that includes you and me. ""...Islam is the only major religion, along with Buddhism (if we consider the name of the religion to come from Budd, the Divine Intellect, and not the Buddha), whose name is not related to a person or ethnic group, but to the central IDEA of the religion. ["The Heart of Islam: Enduring Values for Humanity," Seyyed Hossein Nasr, 2002]" The word Israel means 'He has striven with God', which was a name that GOD gave to Jacob. Any cursury examination of the rest of Christian doctrine will show that Jesus did not teach 'fight'ing or striving against God. So your question about which seems best, in the context of our discussion, would be implying that Israel's strategy as a nation is to intentionally struggle against God, whereas Islam's is to submit. I do not believe that they 'struggle' as an agenda (although it IS human nature), nor does Christianity. And i disagree that Islam's ideology is merely to submit Themselves and stop there. They OBVIOUSLY want to dominate the world with their political/religious ideology. And if we will not submit to the ideology, we will pay the price- whether in money, or restrictions on our lifestyle, or our very lives. You can argue that God does the same in the end. But it's up to Him to judge. I don't think anyone here on earth should sanction and/or arrange the supposed punishment FOR GOD, which is what Islam purports to do

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 23:50 | 6864133 Seek_Truth
Seek_Truth's picture

Oh ye of little understanding:

"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." - Matthew 7:16-20

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ - Matthew 7:21-23

There are "Christians" in name only- and there are true Christians.

There are weeds, and there are wheat.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:07 | 6864195 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

Oh ye of little understanding:

 

I understand perfectly well. I'm trying to point out that anyone who kills in the name of peace is a hypocrite whether they are Christian, Muslim or anything else. Can you understand that?

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:19 | 6864226 Seek_Truth
Seek_Truth's picture

I get the gist of your statement, but when you use the term Christian, you'd do well to us " " or a lower case c as opposed to a capital C so that your meaning is clear- which it wasn't.

Incidentally, is it your belief that Muslims can live in peace with non Muslims? And if so- for how long?

See, there's a huge gulf between the teachings of Christ- which emphasize love and forgiveness --- and the teachings of Mobammed- which emphasize hate and the murder of "infidels".

Try a walk through Hammtramk, MI at night vs a walk through Gatlinburg, TN at night to see the huge difference.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:25 | 6864245 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

 

 

There is no compulsion in religion.
-- Quran 2:256

Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject it"
-- Quran 18:29

And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?
-- Quran 10:99

For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.
-- Quran 109:6

Therefore do remind, for you are only a reminder. You are not a watcher over them;
-- Quran 88:21

He said, "O my people have you considered: if I should be upon clear evidence from my Lord while He has given me mercy from Himself but it has been made unapparent to you, should we force it upon you while you are averse to it?
-- Quran 11:28

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:30 | 6864260 Seek_Truth
Seek_Truth's picture

Billy- the Koran's message is one of conquest by the sword- the Christian Bible's message is one of conquest through love.

Actions speak louder than words- that goes for everyone.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:36 | 6864274 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

the Koran's message is one of conquest by the sword

It's a mixed bag just like the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. Some love and some hate. Lots of swordplay and killing at the behest of god accompanied by calls to love your fellow man. Some parables which are understood as parables and others which are misinterpreted and used to justify violence and dancing with snakes and drinking poison.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:50 | 6864317 Seek_Truth
Seek_Truth's picture

I'd much rather hear an atttempt at defense of the Koran from a Muslim than from a self proclaimed atheist- just sayin'.

Nothing wrong with trying to wrap your head around various belief systems, but there is a wide road that leads to destruction and a narrow one that leads to salvation- and that narrow road is putting faith in Jesus Christ.

Satan doesn't care which flavor you choose.

Jesus does.

In the end, you get to spend eternity with one, or the other.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:52 | 6864326 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

I'm just trying to share my lack of hate with you.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 01:00 | 6864344 Seek_Truth
Seek_Truth's picture

I hear ya Billy Crockett.

God is love.

Only one way, one, truth, one life.

http://biblehub.com/john/14-6.htm

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 01:08 | 6864366 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

Peace and liberty, friend.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 13:28 | 6866185 Johnny Horscaulk
Johnny Horscaulk's picture

Wasting your breath billy.

Seek truth is the precise opposite if his name. He has learned about islam from people who likely are not muslim but people with an agenda.

He can see the hate/violence in the trxt of that orher book God wrote, but not the violence, inconsistencies, hate etc in his own book of fairytales.

That the muslim knows that allah is God and mohammad his messenger as much as seek truth "knows" what he " knows" doesn't bother him.

In psych wards and neuro units it is called confabulation.

http://www.memorylossonline.com/pastissues/summer2000/confabulation.html

Normally redulting from memory loss it can also be caused by other damage to sensory pathways. It usnt *lying* - the person is compelled to create a story and believes it even though you or I would regard it as primary nonsense.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/10/why-religious-zionism-not-judaism-is-th...

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/bible_quran.html

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:49 | 6864312 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Your term " conquest through love" troubles me. No conquest is necessary. Becoming the embodiment of Love is sufficient and one should leave others alone in their self determination, IMHO. The Light of God shines on us all whether we embrace or reject it.

Your argument is better leaving off the Old Testament.

Miffed

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:54 | 6864329 Seek_Truth
Seek_Truth's picture

Love ya miffed, but, we are:

More Than Conquerors

31What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”j
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,k neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 8:31-39

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 01:10 | 6864368 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Well, if it is God who justifies, then I shall leave Him to do the conquering. Because of being human and, therefore, fallible I am likely to make a mistake in the name of God and cause more problems than I fix. So I focus removing the log in my own eye rather than criticizing the speck in my brother's.

Miffed;-)

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 01:22 | 6864387 Seek_Truth
Seek_Truth's picture

Indeed.

Love conquers all:

1 Corinthians 13

The Greatest Gift

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;

5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;

6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;

7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oX4k4Douqgk

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 13:35 | 6866231 Johnny Horscaulk
Johnny Horscaulk's picture

The LORD is a man of war. Exodus 15:3
Fight in the way of Allah. Quran 2:244

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bi...

I hope that one day, ST, your heart and mind pine to have knowledge of the world by empirical verification and remaining open-minded to new evidence, instrad of confusing believing something is true without any evidence at all, and considering 'that' knowledge of the truth.

Tou can not 'seek truth'

You can only seek true, i.e. accurate knowledge.

Plus if jesus is god (he is god for most christians in the workd the yeshuaites and judaized protestants in the us aside). He is yahweh, one in the same.

If you think Jesus sermons and lets say this for example:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+7

Then you literally do not understand the gospels.

You also in that case, glibness aside, will probably live your whole life lying to yourself.

No.

Dont do that.

Readddddd^^^^^

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:15 | 6863768 booboo
booboo's picture

Odin said he was "hung on a tree and his side was pierced with a spear" He was just living out his fantasy of being Jesus.

 

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 23:01 | 6863846 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

There were many Gods who died and were resurrected before Jesus was conceived. See Sir James Frazer's The Golden Bough (1890), specifically the section regarding Adonis, Attis and Osiris.

 

Nowhere, apparently, have these rites been more widely and solemnly celebrated than in the lands which border the Eastern Mediterranean. Under the names of Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis, and Attis, the peoples of Egypt and Western Asia represented the yearly decay and revival of life, especially of vegetable life, which they personified as a god who annually died and rose again from the dead. In name and detail the rites varied from place to place: in substance they were the same. The supposed death and resurrection of this oriental deity, a god of many names but of essentially one nature, is now to be examined. We begin with Tammuz or Adonis.

 

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3623/3623-h/3623-h.htm

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 11:44 | 6865644 detached.amusement
detached.amusement's picture

I have to laugh at some of the things you say that people downbot

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 13:20 | 6866137 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

Yep, gotta love those who downvote recorded history.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 23:45 | 6864118 azusgm
azusgm's picture

He is coming back.

Get ready.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 23:56 | 6864154 Fukushima Fricassee
Fukushima Fricassee's picture

Shhhhhh don't tell them that. If they identify him they will just kill him quicker this time.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 01:51 | 6864434 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

Seemed like they enjoyed killing him slowly the first time.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 20:53 | 6863489 Likstane
Likstane's picture

Your god is a myth
My God lives eternally
You will answer to Him eventually

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:00 | 6863521 Fukushima Fricassee
Fukushima Fricassee's picture

Yo "christian" you will win no hearts or minds talking shit like that.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:03 | 6863531 Likstane
Likstane's picture

You will answer also

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:50 | 6863773 Fukushima Fricassee
Fukushima Fricassee's picture

I am all for the message Jesus deliverd but I do not recall him putting you in charge of telling other people about judgement on the internet. Yes even as he spoke in "symbols and parables" I cannot decifer any shit like that. When the time comes we will all judge ourselves . Now go in front of the mirror look yourself in the damn eye and say your sorry for your misguided misdirected comment. Self judgement is what causes "whailing and nashing of teeth" because we all have much to regret.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:23 | 6863793 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

The book of James is very instructive about the tongue.

 

It is a relatively quick read unless you study it in depth.

 

The Word of God is likened to a double edged sword.

 

One will read words of compassion, forgiveness, grace, and salvation.

 

Yet others will read the very same passage and read words of condemnattion, retribution, and because of the lack of works, damnation.

 

Now I am not on Fight Club to win souls. In fact I cannot save anybody.

 

So I, generally, am here to point out hypocrisy and lies, along with the utter and total hopelessness that there is here, in the World. Anybody who places their faith in the World or any other Human Being has misplaced their faith in the first place.

 

And since this is Fight Club I go out of my way to be very cruel while doing it. I AM NOT HERE TO WIN SOULS.

 

You will not win any souls here either. You cannot save anybody.

 

The only entity that can save souls if Jesus Christ. He already did it.

 

Most everybody, the extreme majority, here has heard about Him.

 

The best that you can do is pray for the apocalypse of Jesus Christ to manifest in each and every person's life. (I mean that word apocalypse most literally.) Far too many readers here will believe that I am praying their own personal damnation. And yet the converse is so true....if they only understood the Word.

 

So just how will you answer?

 

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:50 | 6863820 Fukushima Fricassee
Fukushima Fricassee's picture

Here is my answer , Rasta

Everybody want to go to heaven
But nobody want to die, Father of the Jesus
Everybody want to go up to heaven
But none of them, none of them want to die

Peter Tosh

Preacher man, don't tell me, Heaven is under the earth
I know you don't know, what life is really worth
It's not all that glitter's is gold, half the story has never been told
And now you see the light, you stand up for your right

You see, most people think great God will come from the sky
Take away everything, make everybody feel high
But if you know what life is worth, you would look for yours on earth
And now you see the light, stand up for your right

Bob Marley

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 23:12 | 6863995 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

Science Dammit.

 

Now I have that Reggae Music bouncing between my ears.

 

How can you give me peaceful harmony when I want to be onery and fight on Fight Club?

 

Low blow. T'ain't fair.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 23:31 | 6864060 Fukushima Fricassee
Fukushima Fricassee's picture

Cool dat

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:54 | 6864224 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

Tom is in a good mood tonight.

I'd rather fight about liberty than religion because I see Christians (the ones I know, anyway) as good allies against the state. It's the ones who keep telling me that I can't act morally based on reason and that I'm going to hell that irritate me.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 08:17 | 6864841 janus
janus's picture

allow janus to interject here at the intersection of reason and morality.

"there is a way that seems right to a man; but the end of that way is death (sheol, the abyss, the grave, the void...hell, as it were)"

among mortals, Socrates still stands loftily above all others with respect to the craft of reason.  the methods informing his dialectics consisted in a very basic formula.  essentially, he would mingle the distillates of inviolate, objective Truth and apply those compounds as solvents to subjective experience.  this action had the effect of searing irritation in the souls of those who experienced it -- a very similar sensation stoked in you, billy.  tptb of his age HATED Socrates for the irritation provoked by his dialectics.  as regards the conclusion of his reasoning, it should interest the thinker to note that Socrates was obsessed with God and His nature.  in short, Socrates was put to death for discovering that God was/is one, that He is both omniscient and omnipotent, and then teaching said doctrines to the corruptible youth sealed his fate viz a tincture of hemlock.  that is to say, Socrates -- though matriculated in an hellenic society endorsing polytheism -- discovered, through reason, the God of the Bible.   and having familiarized myself with both Socrates & Christ, it is my firm belief that Socrates would bow before Our Lord and wash His feet with a surfeit of joyful tears. 

perhaps you're a superior practitioner of reason than the wisest among classical greeks and all of antiquity...but pardon me for doubting as much.  janus will with conviction say that you cannot act morally based on any form of reason divorced from a recognition of divinity.  reasoning independent of God invariably results in a crude and materialistic calculus that substitutes the self for God; and any atheistic tangent derivative of this self-as-god principal is a silly and facile melange of sophistry and adolescent do-goodery.  

quoting from Invictus, "i am the master of my fate; i am the captain of my soul."  with this i agree.  you are the custodian and steward of your soul; but, mark it well, a captain is only such within the corpus of an army, and a master is only such at the pleasure of a potentate (or king).  and that recognition requires yet another acknowledgement:  to what (or whom) do you owe your allegiance?  in what army do you serve as captain?  in whose estate are you a master?

"in my father's house there are many mansions."

billy, you had absolutely NO influence on your origins or entree into this dimension, and your soul is an everlasting entity (all mortals know this instinctively; which is why humans are fundamentally religious creatures). you do, however, have some influence on your everlasting fate.  you're going to have to play for one team or the other.  there is laid before you two paths, the road to hell is broad and well traveled; the gate to heaven is narrow and difficult...and these are most difficult times.  to think that you can contrive an idiosyncratic and subjective framework of right and wrong according to your own estimations and laughably limited capacity to reason is, well, laughable (and there's a most powerful entity chuckling at you right now, down deep in the pit of the abyss).  look, God would have more respect for you if you were a tad more honest.  just worship yourself as god and be done with it.  for it is written, "be ye hot or cold...the lukewarm I will spew from my mouth."

or, as Dylan said, "you're gonna have to serve somebody." 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdUtborIaiU

"Light did but come into the world; but men preferred the darkness instead."

let there be Light,

janus

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 13:30 | 6866149 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

If you don't believe that it is reasonable not to steal, rape or kill then I don't want to be anywhere near you.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 13:56 | 6866341 janus
janus's picture

as Doestoevsky once wrote, "if there is no god, then everything is permissible."

and it isn't me you have to worry yourself with -- i make it clear where i stand.  it is more with those in whom you infect with atheism.  if a man is his own god, then his only purpose is to serve his pleasure.  now, you may not delight in theft, rape or murder; but what of your athiestic acolyte whose pleasure and purpose is different from your own?  you say his is bad, but he says your bad is arbitrary.  why should he spare you any suffering if he can get away with the act?

so, please help me understand why, if there is no god, it is reasonable for you to keep what another can take by force?  quite simply, it isn't.  in fact, it is perfectly reasonable for the athiest to take all that he can for as long as he can and interpret your purpose as an instrument of his intentions.  

garsh, listening to and reading all you mush-minded 'athiests' makes me wish i were one, too.  you bitches are ripe for the harvest; that's for damned sure.

i'll tell you what, billy.  why don't i drop you off in a certain neighborhood in philly...let's see how reasonable they find your position.  i have no doubt you'll win them to your cause in no time flat.

p.s. if janus were to reckon according to your godless reasoning, it wouldn't be a matter of whether you'd want to be near me; rather, it's whether or not you could get away.  and, word to the wise, poets make for very poor sprinters.

tally-ho,

janus 

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:37 | 6863634 Bloodstock
Bloodstock's picture

As you FF have no heart or mind to be won. Back to the dungeon creep-o.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:36 | 6863837 Fukushima Fricassee
Fukushima Fricassee's picture

Rather small minded of you. Tell you what. Go star gazing. Has a way of broadening limited horizons. Good luck

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:20 | 6864230 Billy the Poet
Billy the Poet's picture

I enjoy double entendre.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:43 | 6863864 SilverFish
SilverFish's picture

Your god is a dick.

 

Jesus - "knock knock"

guy - "who is it?"

Jesus - "it's Jesus.....let me in!"

guy - "why should I let you in?"

Jesus - "so I can save you"

guy - "save me from what?"

Jesus - "save you from what I'm going to do to you if you don't let me in!"

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 20:59 | 6863493 Fukushima Fricassee
Fukushima Fricassee's picture

Jesus was the ultimate libertarian , anti governrment , truth teller in your face , power to the people all around good  guy. TPTB really fucked him up for it. Sure he knew how to use a hammer is was a tool of his trade. I will bet Jesus post on ZH from time to time. Show some damn respect.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:03 | 6863530 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I think your god carries a hammer in one hand and a sickle in the other and more than likely helped build that cross.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:16 | 6863565 Jerome Lester H...
Jerome Lester Horwitz's picture

And yet Christ died for his and all mankind's sin.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:20 | 6863578 surf0766
surf0766's picture

You are on fire tonight

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:47 | 6863666 nmewn
nmewn's picture

If anyone thinks I'm going to roll up into the fetal position, start crying #SafePlace! while sucking on my thumb and discard everything I know to be virtuous in this life, they really don't know me very well ;-)

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:54 | 6863688 Fukushima Fricassee
Fukushima Fricassee's picture

+ following orders with out serious critical thought is evil, Period

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:05 | 6863732 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well, I'm not Catholic so I really don't know what you mean.

(Whooop, here comes the hate...lol)

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:27 | 6863798 Fukushima Fricassee
Fukushima Fricassee's picture

The current Argintine pope is not "catholic" either, he follows marx with his mouth  and on the other hand for the love  of money gives pedophiles a pass.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 23:21 | 6864033 nmewn
nmewn's picture

That's for the Catholics to sort out and as soon as they "vote" to strip the Vatican of it's properties, art, statues, wealth and give it to "the poor" they can then turn to the Protestant's to turn over their prized Prot-Mobile.

Oh, that's right, we don't have one ;-)

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 23:33 | 6864066 Fukushima Fricassee
Fukushima Fricassee's picture

Points

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:58 | 6863709 stormsailor
stormsailor's picture

a womb room?  whaaaaaaaa, the micro-aggression is giving me the vapors.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:02 | 6863721 nmewn
nmewn's picture

lol

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:14 | 6863762 stormsailor
stormsailor's picture

well nm, i would have jumped in on your side, but you obviously got diss, so i just injected some chuckles.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:26 | 6863599 CPL
CPL's picture

Well if looking for Jesus you only need to find a guy in a dress with long hair that hasn't got any interest in women.  I figure Bruce Jenner is a good fit, he can probably grow that beard back and he can moonlight as Mary as well if he shaves.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:40 | 6863847 Fukushima Fricassee
Fukushima Fricassee's picture

Jesus clearly would have taken a wife , like any man probably more so his dream was to have children , but they cut him down in his prime before he could get to that.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 23:19 | 6864021 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

He did take a bride...the church. And yes he does have many children.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:01 | 6864084 Fukushima Fricassee
Fukushima Fricassee's picture

Are you trying to say God gave you that desire but withheld it from the true one? Or are you tying to say God did not think Jesus was fit to be a parent or would not have prefered his liniage to yours? My hope is Jesus makes love to his wife in spritual world hot and often. If anyone deserves that I guess it's Jesus, don't you ?  Heaven with no sex, Really? Go stand in the corner and think about it or is your noodle baked ?

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 00:01 | 6864174 Seek_Truth
Seek_Truth's picture

"23That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24“Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him. 25Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27Finally, the woman died. 28Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”

29Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’b ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

33When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching." - Matthew 22:23-33

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 08:15 | 6864837 frmnthng comesnthng
frmnthng comesnthng's picture

Stories recorded during times when only Pharisee's, and tax collectors, could read and write, should be examined by all possible means/perspectives. Jesus's real name was Jmmanuel, according to the scriptures, and he actually lived after his crucifixtion, where he didn't die. He also then married, had children, and continued his teaching in India.

http://www.tjresearch.info

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 11:50 | 6865669 detached.amusement
detached.amusement's picture

more bastardized nicean rewrite

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 20:35 | 6863409 zero_wedge
zero_wedge's picture

Sibling rivalry.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 20:47 | 6863471 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

"Myst"

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 20:35 | 6863410 guessagain
guessagain's picture

Figures don't lie, but liars sure can figure...

 

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 20:35 | 6863414 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Say it ain't so! Why he looks just like Jesus! Is he not his brothers keeper!...lmao!

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 20:43 | 6863445 tarabel
tarabel's picture

 

 

Yeah, he's keeping his brother in penury.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 20:48 | 6863476 ajax
ajax's picture

 

"Overnight, he became the hero of progressives everywhere demanding lower CEO pay and higher worker pay."

Oh really? Progressives? I seriously doubt that only "progressives" lifted an eyebrow and nodded a head. I think a lot of disgruntled wage slaves may have found the idea quite appealing as well. 

"Progressives." Deep six the word - it is useless.

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:11 | 6863554 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Actually I think it fits "the type" of person who calls themself a progressive very well.

It's a "progression" of the state. Was not Woodrow Wilson a "progressive"? Is not Obama?

Where in the annals of "progressivism" is the chapter and verse thats say's "Ye varily I say unto thee, government shall force the young and healthy to pay insurance companies for the old & sick. Let it be written...ObamaCare!"

Just where exactly is that?

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 21:55 | 6863695 Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

Bend over Sheeples.  Read everything with a slanted eye since 80% of what you read is misrepresented or an outright lie, esp from MSM.

 

It's the "Hope & Change" Generation!

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:22 | 6863789 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Yezzz.

And I'm here NOW to shove their face, not into the mirror...but through it!

At what point in time did their "spidey-sense" go off (even with .gov officialdom TELLING THEM) that THE PLAN WAS for the young (through an act of "law"...carrying a penalty/fine/tax) meant they needed to pay and was DESIGNED TO PENALIZE THEM?

I really don't think they've figured it out yet, THAT'S HOW STUPID THEY ARE.

Another few full frontals moar "through the looking glass" ought to do it ;-)

Tue, 12/01/2015 - 22:11 | 6863752 lincolnsteffens
lincolnsteffens's picture

I think Jesus was Semitic in origin if he was a real person. Of course if he was the son of God and Mary through immaculate conception        ( how's that for a fairy tale?) then he could have been anything. Anybody have an original picture of him? This guy only resembles classic images painted by artists using the artistic license of their own imaginations.

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