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"America's Leadership Just Doesn't Seem To Get It"
When will America’s half-witted elite running the Pentagon and the State Department see the light and acknowledge that perhaps the US lacks the qualifications, or resources, to run, or strongly influence, geopolitics throughout Planet Earth? That might’ve been feasible for two-three decades following World War II, but the late 1970’s are long past and US’ dominance of the world’s economic output has shrunk, now just 18 percent vs. 28 percent in 1950 (re: Maddison Project). And so has our military dominance.
America’s leadership just doesn’t seem to get it, and the insight provided by George Santayana [Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it] and Carl Sagan [You have to know the past to understand the present] become forgotten maxims in their repertoire. And so, government and its parasitic media react to events in an emotional, often irrational way which infects the public’s perception of such events.
When we look at the recent human carnage in Paris or the immolation which occurred in the Twin Towers of New York 14 years ago, we see a canvas of horror, of human pain and suffering, but we fail to ask why, the cause(s) which brought about such horrific acts or inhumane behavior/results. We blame it on terrorism; ill-will from small groups of ideologically-driven individuals with an agenda or a grudge; seldom if ever seeking, looking for the true cause. And, more often than not, we fool ourselves into believing that these groups we tag as terrorists do not represent the exact same sentiment of specific majority populations, when they often do… even if such populations, which may define a country or a region, appear to be in a politically lethargic or repressed state.
As we fail to identify the causes that bring about what we call terrorism, we also fail to realize that such causes also bring higher ideological Causes: goals and principles that are served with dedication and zeal by a militant leadership that we simplistically term as terrorists, and the connotation which allows us in the West to don righteousness while placing the entire blame of any regional turmoil on “them.” And that region in turmoil now extends beyond the Near East/Middle East, with dissatisfaction branching out from Afghanistan (east) to Morocco (west) by diverse cultures faithful to Islam and highly influenced by the success being achieved by the Islamic State (IS).
Under the auspices of the UN, and the diplomatic leadership of John Kerry (US) and Sergei Lavrov (Russia), a plan to stabilize Syria has just been drafted in Vienna; a plan that’s inclusionary of all but one feuding group. That exception being ISIS/ISOL, by whatever acronym one wishes to know the new and resolute Islamic State, now holding major swathes of territory in Iraq and Syria, while establishing itself as the purveyor of extra-territorial reaches and ambition in the creation of a caliphate.
But stabilizing Syria, as important as that would be after a devastating civil war, won’t begin to cure the geopolitical problems in that part of the world; problems that were ignited by an Imperial Britain six-plus decades ago, later adopted and enlarged by an equally ambitious and powerful Imperial America. Problems which have not only deep economic roots but extensive foliage cover of prejudice, lies and deceit. Britain and the US have played havoc in the Middle East, creating geographic borders, sitting and deposing rulers at will, and meddling forcefully in the region’s geopolitics. Meddling which achieved the pinnacle of idiocy with George W. Bush’s invasion of Iraq and deposition of Saddam Hussein, a dictator with lay roots who had long maintained some political balance in the region. By far the greatest mistake ever in the annals of American foreign policy, one which will leprously follow into history a not-very-bright president who did totally depend for his decisions on a cadre of advisers proven to be not exactly political luminaries themselves (Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld and perhaps the archetype of the Peter principle, Colin Powell, at the helm).
US leaders’ ignorance, or disregard, of history created with the invasion of Iraq not just an illegitimate and uncalled for war of choice, but a dislocation of an existing balance of cultures, religion, ethnicities and ruling socio-economic power. In the decade following the invasion, the vengeful Shia majority, who came into power with both the vote and US help, helped create fertile grounds for a Sunni insurgency under proven leadership from capable, former members of Saddam Hussein’s government. Except that this time around, these insurgents are looking at religion, Islam, as the main motivator for their existence, the glue that makes them stay strong and together – fanatically so in the view of most non-Islamic people. And that, nothing else, is the Islamic State in search of its identity, a modern day caliphate… brought to the world courtesy of George W. Bush.
Although we in the US may be hypocritically shedding tears for our French brethren, while forgetting the recent carnages in Beirut, Istanbul, or the downed Russian plane over the Sinai, it might be worth dwelling on the governments of the West and their politicians who seem to lack reasonable political grey matter: that Causes (principles served with both dedication and zeal… often fanaticism) are created by causes (events or conditions that are responsible for an action or result). Yesterday’s Pres. Holande’s declaration of war on ISIS is but an emotional, political reaction which in itself will not prevent, but perhaps increase, future violence.
It will do the US (and the West) well to make nice with Russia and Iran, to help resolve the existing situation in the Middle East, not to forget the existing open wound which does exist in Palestine – and which must be healed before the region truly acquires peace, with all parties learning to differentiate between the causes and the Causes that come into play in this region of the world: cradle of civilization and birthplace of the three Abrahamic religions.
And, for us in the West, perhaps we should be directing our brotherly affection not just for the victims in Paris, but those of Beirut, Istanbul, the Sinai... and all other locations where ISIS has left its inhumane calling card.
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Ever Wonder Why the Most Mass Shootings Ever Have Happened Under Obama?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az2neZzL6UA
Unfortunately, "America's Leadership" = Obozo.
'Nuff said.
Maintaining our FSA saps our ability to maintain both our regular Army and our creditworthiness. Something has to go, but it looks like we have chosen to fail at all three. Democracy!
Seems like the more bombs we drop, the shittier the world has gotten.
The more dependency causing checks the government writes, the worse America gets, which makes the world worse in turn. The war on poverty has cost more than all other "wars" and real wars combined.
Well we have spent 50T so far incentivizing sloth and degeneration and guess what we got?
American leadership understands who signs their paychecks and prevents them from "having an accident".
something is missing from the post above and makes the whole business sound like nothing more than a limited hangout.
although very wrong and stupid in many dimensions, the iraq war was not the worst foreign policy blunder of the u.s.
that distinction goes to the assistance given by the truman administration, against the advice of the secretary of state general george c. marshall, to the formation of the state of israel.
that was the true opening of pandora's box out of which comes greater and greater evil and destruction.
The mechanics are still there although the sense is gone..
The leaders of America got it back between 1776-1779.
Well we have spent 50T so far incentivizing sloth and degeneration and guess what we got?
Kinda hard for the CB to make money if their puppets are not spending. We're a conquered and deceived nation under the fed @ 33 liberty.
Ben seems to have overlooked the Greater IsRa el Project .
Who doesn't "get" that by now ?
Obozo RE-PRESENTS the Corporations that run America. He does not RE-PRESENT the people. He RE-PRESENTS the ALL CAPS 'PERSON'
Under King Boy, Amerikansky moral compass is skew, entire government infrastructure from Healthcare to State Department is malfunction. Any expansion of Pax Amerikana under such is doom for fail.
Amerikansky is need Reagan 2.0. Boy, are tell you, if Reagan 2.0, Russia is not so formidable, is maybe think twice before troop movement.
(P.S. Trump is no Reagan, so don't even you are thinking it!)
http://www.thelocal.no/20151130/norway-remove-cross-refugees
The same could probably be said if crazy Khrushchev was still around. Supposedly he threatened to bomb Turkey the last time this happened during a CIA backed coup attempt during "the Syrian crisis of 1957". Whatever happened it must of backfired because Syria is still standing today, although barely.
Pax Americana == Second Roman Empire
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&...
Jesus will tell them whether or not to remove the crosses.
That's His job.
the community organizer set out to Detroit America.
better the control freaks stay pre-occupied with the Middle East than get too interested in the USA borders
This should be interesting...
Tired of articles pointing fingers at "stupid" people or groups. NONE OF THEM ARE AS STUPID AS YOU THINK. Modern day western politicians FULLY realize they can't fix this. They FULLY realize it's over. And they FULLY realize they better get while the getting is good.
They don't give a shit about those they govern because they already know what we know- it's a lost cause. Line their pockets as best they can and get the hell outta Dodge.
fixed it for you
You meant "they better stay while the staying is good."
There ain't no place to go.
@NoDebt
Best reply so far. You get it.
Even when the Rome fell, the aristocracy enjoyed luxurious benefits.
The same happened in the fall of the Mayan civilization, in the fall of the Great Chinese Empire, etc.
Why would you give up power, when you already know you're going to lose it?
Americans are just hanging to it as long as possible and trying to postpone the inevitable.
Oh they "get it," alright - they've just been bought out to do the bidding of those who wish to write the fate of man per their plan and whim, i.e., the "Zionists."
Selling out their brothers and sisters and children for a "fistful of dollars"...
The Israelis would have to play nice too. They're the ones muslims especially don't like.
Yeah - that's how the End Times are scripted in ISIS-land:
the world's Christians convert to Islam, while the Jews are just killed.
"Killing is my business and business is good!" - US State Dept. and the Pentagon. Psychopaths are like the Energizer Bunny - they just keep going and going...
They're taking us down on purpose.
Who is "they?" And who is "us?"
Why are not intelligent, humble and connected persons directing attention and energy towards thwarting off the "they" and protecting principles and rule of law, via prescribed means, presumably in the interest of "us?"
So then... now there is no definition of "they," or "us," or "principle," or "law."
Seems like a Control vs Ignorance issue.
Politicians and the rich cocksuckers with their elite reptile snake fingers up their ass pulling the strings.
That's the Control part.
It's "for the children". They taste better with a layer of fat.
cocksuckers and reptiles resent being grouped with politicians, especially with obama and bush.
apparently they feel a vague kinship with clinton for some reason.
Good write-up but you can extrapolate more broadly. Nazism was vanquished at the end of WWII, but not eugenics. The global elite are fervent adherents of eugenics. Maybe with the wave of "multiculturalism" the belief of pure racism has dissipated among elites, but not the concomitant belief system of genetic superiority. In the NWO... elites are the new ubermenschen, and the rest of us are cannon fodder. Look around, it's everywhere. Elite schools, elite families, hereditary politicians, 2d generation and 3rd generation investment bankers. And now the Chinese elites' kiddikens are flooding Ivy League schools...
Yes. They think because they control the nexus of power and money they know All and control All. Does any of this sound familiar?
Remember that Rush song, The Trees?
'The oaks are just too greedy
We will make them give us light'
Now there's no more oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe and saw
The founding fathers understood the inherent dangers of unchecked government. The Constitution was written as a limit on power. A system of checks and balances that has been chipped away since the Whiskey Rebellion. How do you check the unlimited power of a entrenched political elite gone insane with power?
Guillotines my friend. Guillotines.
You can't guillotine those who have MRAPs and SWAT teams on their side...
He who writes the cheques, writes history, and in a time of universal deceit, the cheques to the "protectors" don't stop flowing. They will always be the first to be paid, to "protect and serve."
yah tell that to Ceasar. Like the US, he was paying the bills with ever diluted currency till they slit his throat.
answer me this
what if he also has insufficient funds?
and there's a big service charge?
"Nazism was vanquished at the end of WWII"
Nope,,, Fascism / Nazism just moved to the conquering Western nations.
I'm, dumbfounded
You'll get past that.
I'm incredulous.
I'm gobsmacked by all this codswallop.
but did she swallow?
Yes, it is the plan...whether we will be successful in overthrowing them remains to be seen...kind of hope a bunch more sandniggers shoot up some malls to stir us to action.
I grew up in the Middle East, there is no moderate Muslims except those who don't practice it.
Based on my own anecdotal sample, Sunnis tend to be either non-practising agnostics or variably suppressed crazies. All the Shias I've known (both Arab and Persian) were good human beings, including the devout ones.
It just dawned on me (I know, I'm a little slow) that all these false flags seem to be occurring in "gun free zones". If TPTB tried that stuff in areas where firearms are handy, concealed carry states, we would be seeing an entirely different outcome, and perhaps even real blood.
The way they see it the assets of the world belong to them which ensures that there is enough money to enfluence geopolitics throughout the world. Right about now these assholes are thinking that we are eating too much as they have other plans for what provides our standard of living.
It's not a matter of politicians 'getting it', they know perfectly well what they are doing. It's Journalists who need to wake up, and ignore the national security gag letters.
So true.
There is a world of facts, and ideals. It is for journalists to investigate, rather than bow down to money monsters who would kill all mankind, just to save their own.
However, that mission is only for the bravest, as we see many honest journalists jailed or killed, while the cowardly ones collect their pay and claim to be journalists, but they are not; they are apparatchiks; 'useful idiots' or 'educated fools'.
Okay...it's "over"... Blah blah...hearing this shit since before odumbo...
So be over this time! When the net is down, perhaps then it will be over?
Well it's over for the Greek who is selling their ass for a sandwich, the Saud who is being lashed and beheaded, the person in Cyprus who had their bank account robbed etc., so it really just depends on perspective and where you are on the hit list... right now we are being allowed to rent the very expensive exceptional seating where we can view just a little further down the timeline.
For most, they still have their big flat screen TV, Booze, porn and sports. Acting as life support for the banksters/MIC is soooooo much fun. /s
Bankers and MIC have found carnage profitable and, to them, nothing else matters.
Globalization knocking at America's door. All sovereign nations opposed to the globalists are burning down to the ground for resisting.
When the dust settles, will the globalists be the ones standing with the key to control the future?
"The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight of hand that was ever invented. Banking was conceived in iniquity and born in sin. Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money and control credit, and with the flick of a pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again. Take this great power away from the bankers and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear, and they ought to disappear, for this would be a better and happier world to live in. But if you want to continue the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create money and to control credit."Sir Josiah Stamp, Director and President of the Bank of England during the 1920's
Yes, excellent idea, let's butt the fuck out of the hornets nest we seem to be constantly beating with a stick.
Golly gosh, gee whiz. Let's all just bow down to the Talmud or Koran. AIPAC, Project for a New American Century, Wolfowitz Doctrine, friends of Israel and Saudi Arabia, and Britain.
FUCK OFF.
This is one of the most cluesless assessments of the iraq war and the rise of isis and the wars on israels neighbors i have ever read.
Isis exists today because of direct support by the us, israelis, saudis and turks.
Bush was a puppet.
When you examine who argued for war longest and hardest you can not escape the conclusion that the chais we see is what us and isrseli militarists want.
The Syrian Holocaust: A Preplanned Genocide And Forced Exodus
http://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=25505
http://original.antiwar.com/thomas-harrington/2015/10/11/the-problem-wit...
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=western_support_for_islam...
johnny,
I do admire your persistence, and modern journalism, by which to name sources and facts.
We shall overcome.
It is obvious to any informed person that the banksters intend to burn down the house in order to get rid of evidence of their crimes, and their pet politicians will pledge ignorant people and troops to that cause of fiat fakery.
May Lord Almighty keep you safe. I pray.
Other cynics can count in their money house, but they are first to die by the hand of their own. History tells us so.
The mention of anything but money and politics gets anyone dismissed, but it is money and politics which is clearly hateful, money grubbing, insolvent, wrong.
You scream and deny, writer of this article on ZH.
The so called 'elite' of American politics are the zionist pets whose predecessors killed JFK because he denied nuclear weapons to Israel, issued silver backed money which would end their City of London Rothschild counterfeit money and power, and told their CIA Nazionists that he would smash them to smithereens after their Bay of Pigs fiasco, and their Operation Northwoods plot which said to bomb Americans in order to achieve their internationalist, globalist objectives. 9/11 came later.
Killing the last true Commander in Chief of the USA, JFK, was a coup d'etat. Everything since then has served the 'jews who are not jews', the zionist, the new bolsheviks, Israel first, and everyone one else a debt slave.
Do not ask me to forgive this nonsense, this betrayal.
Soon after JFK was killed, Israel got its nuclear weapons, the Federal Reserve withdrew his silver backed money, the CIA wages permanent war for the bankster, by the banksters of the banksters.
Our Jack, God bless him, remarks to the Newspaper Society:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdMbmdFOvTs
The new Bolsheviks who slaughtered Christians in Russia paid by London bankster Rothschild and want to silence journalists are on the march. Stop them.
"...If only Marx had remained a foreign correspondent, history might have been different...'.
Never let the claim for national security deny us of our Constitution, our rights, our American tradition.
The world is attacked by the new Bolsheviks, and their money masters,aided by their distracting Hollyweird amusements and propaganda. Stop them.
That's it...I'm going to start doing Crack.
:-D
Got to love Brit humour...
That just might save the world from being too earnest for its own good.
(Too harsh satire for you, Brit? Bomb more people. That might lift your spirits.)
With Democrats & Republicans in office,what's this leadership you speak of?
The greatest threat to America is that a-holes will elect a Republican or Democrat for President in 2016.
The War/Welfare Party wants people to vote for them. Left,, right, left right...off to oblivion they urge people to go, and like them.
I don' t like them. CONgress has the lowest approval rating in U.S. history.
Oh they get it, alright. It is the Sheeple out in Left Field who don't get it.
They're so used to getting sheep-shagged, sheared and fleeced, that they think that their world is how things ought to be elsewhere. Comfortably dumb or comfortably numb applies to them.
It seems to me that too many people today talk about high ideals, and serve their own lowly interest, with no regard for their community.
They do not serve what is right. They serve what is venal. They serve what is easily obtained, statist, money serving propaganda, while those without money or land suffer most for the fancy words of Statist 'useful idiots' and 'educated fools'.
No matter. People of stronger stuff watch, prepare and will prevail. History tells us so, and history rhymes ;-)
Always a pleasure to read your posts. You and I and people like us are fortunate, mostly because we don't buy lies.
You know what would be some fun filled bread and circuses type events (better than the NFL)???? Move 100K of mostly male of military age "Syrian refugees" (the general term now used for any people from the Middle East and North Africa by the MMS) to LA, South Miami Beach, and LA then film their assimilation into their new environments. This could make for some fun Must See TV.
You don't care, and that is coming to you, Californication: voting Demoncrat or Repugnant.
"When will America’s half-witted elite running the Pentagon and the State Department see the light and acknowledge that perhaps the US lacks the qualifications, or resources, to run, or strongly influence, geopolitics throughout Planet Earth? "
never, because it is scientifically proven stupid arrogant people are too stupid to realise they are stupid and arrogant...
Take your complaint to the Crown, and AIPAC who hijacked U.S. gov policy, all for their bankster filth after killing JFK.
Ain't that right, Messrs Rothschild et al.
The 'jew who is not a jew' but an eastern european bank slave and homocidal maniac would kill Putin as they did JFK, but Putin is wise to their plots; more than one step ahead of them.
The world is not as nice or stupid as 'experts' Trilateral Commission wants.
They get it, they just don't give a stiz.
U.S. pulled off a major false flag(9/11) to maintain an unlimited budget and went off the rails with it. They would have been better off going hitler with it.
Unless it's "Leadership" into The Abyss - - as a battering ram for an alien agenda - America has no "Leadership".
And that is not thru "half-witted"ness or "not getting it" but by deliberate cold, calculated design - as amply demonstrated in the pre-meditated obliteration of Iraq, Libya and now Syria... ALL as laid out in the ZIO-CON pre-9/11 PNAC manifesto.
All 1oz Silver coins are €12 @ EurGold
https://www.eurgold.eu/silver/silver-coins/
Cool!
Only 12 Euros for a small metal disc with a silvery color on the outside.
Don't touch them or your fingers may turn green.
They come with a written guarantee that the disc is made of metal.
Washington should start a new currency and end it's deal with the Fed - problem solved - thems not our dollars thems the Fed's dollars!
Get in on the reset so to speak!
Hell and it's cheap too.
Few empires die a slow death/disintegration, especially ones founded on sucking the periphery dry to keep the core going.
If the US had not been overcome with the hubris that they have been, they would have agreed not to challenge the rise of the euro in international trade and reserve currency system, would have actively encouraged their own stooges to move away from the US$ like Iraq did and allowed the US$ to crash and wipe the US external debt out in 2004. The Eurozone could have reciprocated this good gesture with a reverse Marshal plan of its own, providing investment in Euros. They then could have worked out some kind of international currency with Russia and China also having a stake in the decision making.
Instead they chose to flex their muscles and maintain an unmaintainable empire, by attacking every non-Western nation that challenged its hegemony, in the process forcing China and Russia to seek alternatives to Western dominated currency regime and now finally challenging the US military hegemony in the Middle East. The successful challenge Russia posed in Syria to the West will itself reverberate throughout the Middle East and when the New Development Bank of the BRICS launches its own currency for international trade and reserves, even the current US stooges in the Middle East will have no hesitation in switching to the use of that currency since they know they can depend on China and Russia to thwart any overt military advances on their countries by the US. Once the US' ability to marshall the resources of the world simply by issuing currency is cut off, not only will its currency and economy collapse, but so will its military capability.
But it is always good to see empires of pompous bandits implode. Teaches the rest of the world to be decent and humble.
The problem with American foreign policy is that there is no diplomacy involved in it, American foreign policy is comprised of bribery and or intimidation, hence the American military of today being five times the size it was during WW2, the expenditure is bleeding America dry.
For the USA to have an effective peace producing foreign policy its politicians must learn to respect the mind-set and cultures of other countries, and stop looking on other countries as nothing more that possible money earners to be used and abused in order to make a profit, that may have worked in the years after WW2 while the former great powers were bankrupt and in a state of ruin because of damage suffered during the war but those days are over, the old and emerging powers are on the rise again, America must learn to listen to them and compromise.
"…America’s half-witted elite running the Pentagon and the State Department"
It's time to stop name calling and give credit where credit's due and that's to TPTB for keeping ZHers chasing their tails for almost a decade.
I agree 110%
Half-witted, that's putting it mildly, hahahaha. I would say one-tenth-witted at the most. Such a fucking cacophony of moral less terrorists trying to tell the world how to run their affairs while they ignore the shit that they cause in their own land, Letting the jews run your shit show. I could go on but you get the message.
America's Leaders do get it, (Saudi oil money). Just like 911 the evdence and money pointed to Saudi Arabia, However Saudi money paid off American'Leaders and so we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. America's biggest threat is not ISIS but the Democrat and Republican crime syndicates. These crime syndicates have run our country since the civil war and their corruption is just about to destroy our country. How do you think we got to almost 19 trillion dollars in debt? How come they will not let our Senators see the Gold in Fort Knox? The gold is gone and it was not ISIS or China or Russia who stole it. It was an inside job.
Ben Tanosborn doesn't seem to get it, 9/11 was an inside job! https://vimeo.com/37721651
The US came out of WWII as the dominant economic and military force in the world. Europe, Russia and Japan were destroyed. This began to change in the mid 1970’s as US corporate profits began declining- the result of increasing competition from re-industrialized EU, Japan and China. To counteract this, several polices were put in place including: 1) Tax cuts for the wealthy (Reagan), 2) attacks on organized labor (firing PATCO workers; Reagan), 3) job out-sourcing to Mexico, China and other low wage platforms (NAFTA; Clinton), 4) Financial deregulation- repeal of Glass-Steagall act and passage of Financial Services Modernization Act (Clinton), 5) more tax cuts for the wealthy (Bush II), 6) an increasingly reckless, dangerous and astronomically expensive foreign policy; the US/NATO war theater now extends from the Levant, to Caspian Basin, Persian Gulf, China Sea, Indian Ocean, Horn of Africa, the Maghreb, to Eastern Europe and Russian border (Bush II, continued under Obama). In response to the 2008 financial crash, the FED transferred $ trillions from taxpayers to Wall St Banks via QE. This money has kept (still) insolvent banks affloat and fueled new bubbles in the stock market, trendy real estate in SF, NYC, Boston, and propped up car sales with subprime auto loans and other financial gimmicks. As repeatedly pointed out on ZH and by David Stockman (davidstockmanscontracorner.com), the next financial crash can happen at any time.
Who is Ben Tanosborn? Why does he think the country's leaders want it to succeed?
Their plan is to destroy this country.
The world is a big fucking place, much bigger than TPTB realize. The world they inhabit is but a small fraction of all that IS out there.
And no, they DON'T get it. Not at all. They presume to believe that they can control everything, when they don't even seem to grasp how MUCH of "everything" is waaaaay out of their reach.
They occupy but a tiny portion of the world, and although their power IN that world is great, it does not extend beyond their little domain.
A nation of 350 million does not, and cannot, control a planet of 7-plus BILLION. But it CAN be shut down real quick should those other 6 1/2 billion-plus decide they've had enough of their feeble (and increasingly irritating) attempts to do so.
Never forget that the world is a MUCH bigger place than you can imagine.