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Bitcoin Or Gold: Did The Alleged Bitcoin Creator Just Settle Once And For All What Is More Valuable?
Last Wednesday, we brought you the story of Craig Steven Wright who was “outed” by Wired and Gizmodo as Satoshi Nakamoto, the pseudonymous founder of bitcoin.
Hours after two articles pegged Wright as the man behind the myth, Australian authorities moved in, raiding the residence “Cold fish Craig” (as he was known in his neighborhood) rented with his wife and conducting searches and interviews at his businesses.
Apparently, Australian tax authorities had questioned Wright in the past and according to a number of sources (and documents obtained by Wired and Gizmodo), there appears to have been some manner of dispute over how his bitcoin holdings should be taxed. The attention accorded to Wright on the heels of the two articles published late last Tuesday might have prompted the ATO to move in once and for all, although authorities claimed at the time that there was no connection between the new “revelations” about Wright’s identity and the raids.
Now, we get the latest twist in what is already a fairly bizarre story, as The Australian says that in May of 2013, Wright attempted to buy some $85 million in gold and software from Mark Ferrier, who at the time was working on a deal whereby his MJF Mining would obtain 50% of the gold discovered by ASX-listed goldminer Paynes Find Gold.
Apparently, Paynes needed machinery which Ferrier - via MJF - was willing to provide in exchange for a claim on any future discoveries. According to the Australian, “Mr Ferrier is alleged to have told Mr Wright gold was good security in the event the ‘funny money’ of Bitcoin failed.” Here’s what supposedly happened next:
Mr Wright has alleged payments were made in August 2013 of $38.8m — then the equivalent of 245,103 Bitcoin — for Siemens software and gold from Paynes. He then claimed payments were made to Mr Ferrier of $20.3m — or 135,100 Bitcoin — in September 2013 for the “core software” from Al-Baraka. In September that year Mr Ferrier was arrested in Perth and the gold partnership with Paynes was discontinued.
In December 2013 Mr Wright filed actions in the Federal Court and NSW Supreme Court suing for his share of the gold, claiming the sum of $84.42m based on the market value of the alleged Bitcoin payments for the gold.
Paynes' annual financial report for the year ending June 30, 2014 contains the following passage about the partnership:
The company terminated a mining services and profit sharing agreement with MJF on October 1, 2013. Mr. Mark Ferrier has lodged a statement of claim with the District Court of New South Wales, claiming an amount of $279,621 related to the loss of profits from the small scale mining.The company considers the claim to be completely false.
Here's an excerpt from a transcript of an ATO meeting that tells part of the story (this is from a John Chesher, who was Wright's accountant):
Craig Wright was speaking in a conference in Melbourne. He was giving a talk about Bitcoins and mining. He was then approached by a man by the name of Mark Ferrier and that was how they met. This was how the relationship was formed. They started talking. Craig Wright told Mark Ferrier that he wanted to start up a Bitcoin bank. They then started emailing. Mark Ferrier told him that he knew someone who could help him start up the bank. This was all done in early June 2013. Everything was done very quickly- most of it was done in one weekend. Craig Wright, with the help of Mark Ferrier, agreed to purchase banking software from Al Baraka. Mark Ferrier also convinced him to purchase gold ore.
He also offered Ian Ferrier’s services to Mark Ferrier. Ian Ferrier is Mark Ferrier’s father. Before engaging in Mark Ferrier’s services, Craig Wright had conducted lots of checks on him and everything came up clean. So in essence, Craig Wright wanted the banking software and Mark Ferrier wanted Bitcoins. Around mid-July/August,
Craig Wright released funds from an entity located in the UK to MJF Consulting. This was all going through a server located in Central West Africa. Mark Ferrier was then arrested in September 2013. Craig Wright then started to take action to protect his own rights. Your director, Des McMaster has informed us that ASIC documents show that Mark Ferrier was only put on as a director for one day. Craig Wright then contacted Pitcher Partners in Brisbane and asked them for an explanation. We found out that Mark Ferrier was never a director. The address that he had on ASIC was false as well. Craig Wright was able to get hold of the banking software and automation system. He has everything but not the gold ore. He was expected to receive the gold ore in 2015 but now that’s not happening as the gold can’t be delivered.
Craig Wright has also contacted Ian Ferrier. Ian Ferrier advised us that he has not spoken to Mark Ferrier for 2 years and wants nothing to do with him. We have a case against MJF Consulting with the Supreme Court of NSW and also the Federal Court. The case with the Federal Court is for deceptive conduct against Mark Ferrier personally as an individual.
Due diligence was conducted on Mark Ferrier before we engaged him. We have done all we could to protect ourselves. If you look at the transactions made, you will see that every transaction was pegged against the currency exchange rate at the time. Craig Wright has already advised you that the accounting method for this personal enterprise should be changed from cash to accruals. The accounts should be on accruals from the start of the 2013 income year. Craig Wright has previously informed the ATO of this. We have previously been dealing with ATO officers from different sites at first, e.g. some initial work was being conducted from the Hurstville office, Brisbane office etc. But then Des McMaster made a decision for all the audits to be done from Parramatta. The audits were then being conducted by Celso. I am uncomfortable with the fact that Des McMaster is looking after these audits. We have had past dealings with him in the previous audits.
For those interested in attempting to get to the bottom of this, you can read more here (just use a word search for "Ferrier), and we're sure they'll be much, much more revealed as time goes on, unless of course the Craig Wright story goes the way of all other Satoshi Nakamoto discovery claims (see Newsweek).
What's immediately interesting however is that while Ferrier might not have "actually wanted any Bitcoin," (to quote Wright), it does seem clear that Wright did and still does, want gold.
The takeaway: if you believe Wright is Satoshi, then the founder of bitcoin is skeptical enough of his creation's intrinsic value compared to hard assets that he was at one time willing to trade a sizeable portion of his cryptocurrency wealth for physical gold.
Trade - or "mine", as it were - accordingly.
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Dude just wants to diversify. Nothing wrong with that. Gold for saving, BTC for spending.
an attempt at diversification and he got taken by a scammer. kind of common for new money...
IGNORE ALL THESE SILVER & GOLD SHILLS. IT'S BITCOIN YOU WANT. IT'S TEH CHOICE OF A NEW GENERATON!
https://localbitcoins.com
Bitcoin is for moving money from one country to another unnoticed.
Gold is a store of value.
That's it.
....well that might be true right now. As in before people discover it's just simpler to move BTC and save BTC and do everything in BTC.
This whole story is bullshit, he is not the creator. Is Angela Merkel Adolf Hitler's daughter? Does anyone know? https://youtu.be/Sx2haIRJHeY?t=15m19s
Waz Hitler a Rothschild? We dunno...
shutup 'COINHEAD' aka FONESTAR
shuttup! shuttup! We iz hiding from Tylerz.
how many times have you been banned, chump?
"Always go where you're least wanted"
~John Lydon
It demonstrates a lack of class, PHOENician STARpuss.
The lack of class is not in the persistent voicing of contrarian opinions but in the gratuitous personal attacks. Maybe with a fresh start and associated motivation to escape getting booted again will come an associated incentive to discontinue the personal attacks.
pyramid schemes are gonna pyramid scheme
<---I choose physical barbaric relic
<---I choose ether fiat
Actally, he was. His father, Alois, was the child of a maid who worked for Baron Rothschild and was knocked up by the old man.
It is bullshit. Now...the entire set is a crypto cipher puzzle. Have to complete the entire set of 21 million puzzle pieces with transactions to help finish the puzzle. When the puzzle is done, the there is a secret revealed in the entire set once done. The more people render the coins the faster it happens and people get to the KEY of the cypher. The reason it's money, is because the carrot goes in front of the horse if you want the system to work for you. Considering you have no gold and no real money, but you all have skills to complete the set. Work will set you free and it will be the first currency in a long time that's actually backed with a community rather than a bank.
The anciliary benefit is a record breaking technology development that will put practically all current technology into the trash pile. The thing is whomever is left standing benefit from the reward of the entire set rendered. Consider it math homework on an old problem with the understanding everyone in charge is dumb, selfish, self righteous, dogmatic and dumb as a bag of hammers that couldn't organise a cat fight if they tried.
So the only way to get the KEY out of the cipher is to actually use it. Then the lock opens a door. To get there though it takes cooperation.
That's the most lucid and concise discription of Bitecoin yet. It's so clear to me now....
"Work will set you free" Where have I seen that before? Hmmmm. Oh, yeah. Here.
http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/blarbeit.htm
Or you could prove P=NP.
Until Newcoin is introduced and attracts more attention from impressionable kids, in which case Newcoin is the new kewl thing to use and bitcoin is relegated to internet history. Don't you just love internet fads?
Now, where have i heard this before. Oh that's right,it's what the Bankers of old told the people when they exchanged their gold for IOUs. They are as good as gold and easy to use...... before you knew it Fiat money was born,since people got used to using paper currency. Bitcoin is created by manmade algorithms that can and will eventually be altered,to accomodate the need for more Bitcoins should Bitcoin, or currencies like it, become dominant. That's a Fiat currency at work. Gold is Earth made and it's production is determined by an independent third party called nature. Even paper money is more tangible than Bitcoin,since it's made out of something i can hold in my hand.
Yawn. Been hearing luddites utter their "I don't really understand bitcoin so I'll stick to gold" tosh like this for years now and it's getting boooooring.
BTC is a bet on a successful digital future. You don't need to hold it in your hand. Jeez. Althought that said, I do have some bitcoin on my mobile, which is in my hand.
And ... BLOCKCHAIN technology is for DE-CENTRALIZING authority. P2P Authentication. F the Feds.
Now how exactly are these bitcoins going to move from one country to another unnoticed when bitcoin transactions are ALL PUBLIC? Sure you could use one of those shady "mixer" or "laundry" services on the deep web but I doubt you'll end up getting anything back from them.
It is not at all clear that the guy in Australia really is Satoshi. My reading seems to show that the Bitcoin community is leaning towards "probably not".
The first comment (Midas) is correct IMO. Nothing wrong with some diversification (buying gold if you have huge BTC holdings). The way Wright went about is very starnge though. Why not buy from, say, The Perth Mint or a Swiss refinery directly?
Strange case...
No he is probably not. Becauze Satoshi is all knowing, he can setup multiple false avenues for peoples pursuing him to chase down teh wrong way and go nowhere.
Yeah. Satoshi will set up patsies to be the fall guys for what he does?
Yeah. That is the type of person that I'd trust with my wealth...NOT.
....and yet you've been trusting in Benny's Clown Bux all these years.
No. Read my detailed response below.
bitcoin is not owned by Satoshi. The software is open source public domain , there are thousands of programmers pouring over this code for several years now looking for holes and weaknesses. You can run this software at home and become part of the network. There are no secrets or back doors in the code.
Bet that there's at least one secret or backdoor in the operating system of the device you're using to run the bitcoin software.
Neither do I - I trade that printed crap for cold hard Au & Ag asap. THAT'S MONEY - not this fiat shit they try to convince us that has "value". Value my ass, only real worth of fiat is how much Btu is released upon combustion.
Satoshi anagram:
Shit Aso.
There is ample evidence this fellow wanted people to think he was for fraudulent purposes.
The real Satoshi(s) can literally prove his indentity by spenting a fraction of a penny from the first block of bitcoin. No one has yet to do that.
The bitcoin in the first block is not spendable ... the 2nd and onwards - yes ... but not the first.
I am genuinely interested in hearing how/why?
It's known as the 'genesis block' , a foundation if you like. Normal blocks are created through transaction processing , but there were no transactions prior to the genesis block thus it does not contain a UTXO set , so there are no coins available to actually spend. bitcoin genesis block contains the words of the front page of The Times 03 Jan 2009 "Chancellor on brink of second bailout" , immutable proof of when it was generated.
Sweet. Many thanks.
It would just be arguably slightly unfair towards the rest of the participants to get a reward for the first block, so this may have been the reason to simply make the first block's reward unspendable in code.
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Genesis_block#cite_ref-3
Black tulips and South Seas shares!
Forget those tangibles!
You're right a new generation of IDIOTS!!
Oh? Unlike your generation of IDIOTS using digital currency since 1969?
Nope. Not unlike it at all.
And that entire system is going to crash and burn, FoneStar.
And I will be celebrating as the cities, built upon the foundations of corruption, burn to the ground.
One digital currency is not any better than the other.
It is all based on FRAUD and CORRUPTION. And that is what you promote.
....and that's why you were protesting so hard against it right? Under Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, etc? You only started to have a problem with teh ponzi when teh ponzi stopped working for you. Isn't that right?
Actually I was protesting it from a very early age.
I started collecting Coins at the age of SEVEN back in 1966.
Coin Shop Owners have had a large influence in formulating my Economic Philosophy.
Furthermore my Goldwater Republican folks in Arizona also gave me a solid foundation and let me in on the scam. Again that was very influential. Hell they called my Uncle and Aunt a couple of John Birchers. Of course I looked into that.
(It is funny. I used to cry about the war in Vietnam so they responded by hiding the Newspapers. But they'd let me read the comics and the Financial News.. I began READING at the age of Two Years Old. I used to enjoy Art Buchwald's satire on the Editorial Pages in the Financial Section.)
As a young teen I'd hang out in a Coin Store in Downtown San Diego on "E" Street.
No FoneStar.
I have had a problem with the Ponzi for quite awhile....for all of my Adult Life.
And I figured it out that most of the Politics were scandalous...although I had some hope for a change when Ronald Reagan brought in his reformers. (He is the only Presidential Candidate I ever voted FOR. He promised reform and the revamping of the entire economy. I believed that. And Gold had soared to unprecedented levels the previous year. He planned to reinstitute the Gold standard....)
But then Reagan was shot and it was back to the same old Ponzi once again. I stood in shock as they borrowed the Capital in order to not inflate. I knew that the borrowing and the Nat'l Debt was just a form of stealth inflation.
You have it all wrong. But you do not know me. So now you have a window.
CH - if you want to make a difference, promote blockchain vote-counting. Dr420
Licutis > it is common if you are in the game. Only those who do not play in the game can sit back and say they never get hit
Licutis > it is common if you are in the game. Only those who do not play in the game can sit back and say they never get hit
COUNTDOWN TO : Coinhead in 5......4.......3.......2.......1...........
OMGG !!!!! LOL, LMFAOL !!!!! TIZZ SATOSHI GAWD UVV BITCOIN!!!!!!!!!!!
BUH TEH BITCOIN YOU AZZHOLES !
Full blown Mexican retail sarc tag for the uninitiated.
OMG SATOSHI WE LOVES YOU!!!!!
I think coinhead is banned. Meet the new coinhead - Phenix Starpus. Same as the old coinhead just here to irritate people and hawk a product.
So by your own logic, you admit that you are a shitty gold & silver pumper then?
'shitty gold & silver pumper' eh. Say no more...
You sound like you're heavily invested in this bitcoin malarkey, and desperate for this story to be false.
Otherwise you're punting second rate shit even the inventors don't want.
You find it so hard to believe that people acutally buh Bitcoins. So teh idea that some of us are BATSHIT CRAZY about Bitcoin seems BATSHIT CRAZY to you. So you invent these dumb conspiracies (that make no sense) to explain it.
Dumb conspiracy?
FONE (ecian) STAR (puss)
You cannot read?
BITCOIN FOR SPENDING AND BITCOINS FOR SAVINGS TOO.
So, do they just crank you guys up out of the ether like a BitCoin or what?
don't ban we (just because we say we wish you and your whole family died).
Death threats? Ban this faggot cocksucker pussy ass. Not that it does any good.
no it doesn't seem to work too good does it?
Death Threats? Why be a lying pussy faggot like PhoneStar?
Children, PLEASE!
Nmewn, the stars are aligning in a weird way. We agree more and more often. Cheers.
Hey man, I just call em like I see um.
You don't see anything.
Diversification is fine, but why put 80 million into one company if all he wants is gold? Why not spread it around? How about doing a proof of concept before engaging an unknown or hold payments in escrow with a timeline dependent on successful deliveries? They supposedly did due diligence but Ferrier's father wants nothing to do with his son? Did I read that right? Many things don't add up...what is the real story.
Why is the Bitcoin always pictured as a GOLD coin? Is that to give it some implied value?
...probably because g0ldcoin wants to relive his "glory days" and be seen with teh new c00l kid.
Nothing wrong with Hedging, or Balancing your wealth into a myriad of assets and vehicle, to suit the occasion and climate.
I agree with this, but if things go south, I feel like gold and silver will work in more places. If you need the services of a tech/software guy you probably will want bitcoin, for nigh everyone else I think Gold and Silver are better. I also agree that moving capital from one area to another, Bitcoin is better. If you are staying put, gold and silver. Both have their uses, I just have wayyyyyy more certainty about PMs.
Not me. Not sold on BC - cryptocurrencies just scream "instantly vanished value" to me. Au and Ag on the other hand...well, I just can't argue with 5000 years of successful use as the one and only true Money of the world.
If things go south, you will most likely be better off with a safe full of .22LR ammo imo.
That will certainly work in all places and will probably be worth more (by weight) than gold in a SHTF scenario.
Cheers!
Like it needed settling.
You're right.
BTC > g0ldcoin in every way.
I asked a hooker if she accepted bitcoin. She told me no because it goes up and down more than she does.
You might ask her if she'll go Down when BTC goes Up.
DATS MUH RIGHT THERE BANZAI DATS MUH RIGHT DERE!
lol can i use this as an app icon?
When a few get something for nothing... the rest will get nothing for something.
BitCon thermodynamics.
Your videos suck and you haven't scared anyone out of buying BTC. The proof as they say is in the price pudding.
You seem the be the last troll here fone(cian) star(puss).
And judging by the comments and votes here as well as the innate tangible nature of useful silver versus your digital illusion of wealth I see no reason to say much more on this... Peace. Moving on.
There's Gold in them there Bitcoins!
Ha ha ha. LMAO.
Well fuckin duh.
Ya see it's like this mate. I got me some of these SheilaBits here that I created from nothing and I'm wanting to convert them into something "a little more substantial" for my retirement.
It's not really like counterfeiting because the state doesn't issue them, it's more like a confidence game, ponzi and a fraud all wrapped up into one.
Whadya say, fifty bit's for an ounce, final offer? ;-)
Forget understanding anything remotely close as complex as Bitcoin. People like you won't even understand who you're being bent over and fucked by (like Trump the establishment st00ge).
Well thats the other thing, its not too complicated for me.
However I was taught long ago that when someone takes something simple (for instance, the concept of a currency) and OVERLY complicates it, it's usually being done to extract something of value for themselves.
BitCoin qualifies on that score alone.
I don't need i-shit or internet or power or passwords or encryption or accounts to hand Fred five bucks for a bunch of bananas, I just need the five bucks ;-)
All I know is that if there's no internet, I have no money
need to look into that "banking software"
When my dentist is building crowns out of bitcoins I'll get interested........
Blythe might be an evil bitch, but she gets stuff through her head. You guys? Not so much...
I'll up arrow altho I almost never arrow. Blythe is one smart dudette. Can't understand why she gets so much ZH grief especially since she's a creator.
Go right on and keep supporting evil. You shall reap that which you sow. Of that I haven't a doubt.
The collapse cannot happen soon enough.
Gold: EMP proof.
If there is an EMP you realize your gold will only be valuable for someone to shoot out of a slingshot.
That argument is silly.
Just remind me. How long has gold been money?
Time is just a cumular limit but with one glimpse can overcome....
Please elaborate.
The difference between 6 years and 5000 years exists only in the mind of a human.
I think gold has been around ~5000 years. BitShit? Not too long....
Yep, but some thoughts are written of in ancient texts, including at least 4 major religions as the money of god alone. I'm not religious, but it's ridiculous to discount things like the Hindu affinity for gold, the cultural value of gold and silver in China and South America. The fact that Gold and Silver have 3,000-6,000 years of history behind them.
Yes, it's a cultural construct, but one that emerged after copious thought and one that now has millenia of weight behind it. Bitcoin is function and useful currently, Gold and Silver have been money since the early days of civilization.
Interestingly, Bitcoin in many ways attempts to emulate the most important aspects of gold/silver coins, which is why it has value, even if that value is temporary, which it may or may not be.
Before GOLD there was the WORD. 0's and 1's? ying and yang? yep.
So, your saying one's and zero's are just blips on your computer screen?
Gold? Ooooh, only about 5000 years, give or take. Can probably trust it as stable money by now.
Try to shoot bitcoin out of a slingshot.
Wow, did the morons down-vote you a lot. What part of the fact that gold also has no value in a Mad Max / The Day After level world do people not get? Good farming land and skills, guns, and a cohesive local community are all that will matter in such a world. Gold won't mean shit.
Faraday cages make everything EMP-proof.
Sensitive servers are protected.
To truly isolate your computer from EMP, you have to not have anything electrically conductive going in or out of your Faraday cage. So anything that brings information that can conduct electriclty is a target for EMP. Just having the computer in the cage is not good enough. EVERYTHING has to be protected. Your surge can come from miles away. All your interface connections would have to be fiber optic. Face it: What good is a protected heart in a body if the entire circulatory system is rendered useless?
Governments around the world can not afford to let Bitcoin survive. If they will take your last ounce of blood to get your last dollar tax wise...think of what they will do to bidcoin. It's going to be bloody for some people. Who knows what day....but the end is coming.
They cannot afford to kill it. The only way governments can do away with cryptocurrencies is to completely nationalize the internet and all hardware and software including end-user computers, and require all software to be government written and run. Now, you can have some socialism on the fringes like medical care or paying for university, but real socialism as in full control of major means of production and distribution, has been tried and catastrophically fails every time.
He could have just been trying to play out the Bitcoin= Transactional and Gold= Store of Value game...
Huh. The King has no clothes
463 bizatches
https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/huobi/btccny
http://www.thebitcoinchannel.com/
Guys
before going on 7 years and more than 1 million deaths in Iraq... before the thousands of deaths in Libya... before the 260,000 dead and counting in Syria... before the trains station in Volgograd got blown up in '13... before the overthrow of the Ukraine government in Kiev in '14 which in almost 2 years has resulted in the death(s) of nearly 60,000 in that Country... before the downing of MH-17... before the downing of Metrojet flt9268 over the Sinai... before the murder of the Russian pilot in Syria...
we could debate the elegance of the "block chain" in Butt Coin vs. the "on" "off" switch at Fort Meade...
Now?... it don't matter AT ALL!!!!
It's way past our bedtime folks...
We missed too many opportunities to count in fixing it before we got "HERE"!
Yep, all the people crying about Civil Rights now, I hope to god you were on it no later than early-2002 allowing for some 9/11 induced shock (really people should have been concerned circa 1913, but lets stay recent and with the biggest abridgement Patriot Act of recent memory). By that point it should have been that our liberties were being egregiously, no longer just whittled away, but straight up fire ax chopped apart. It's not too late, but the hour is late.
Just here to neg the bitcoin guys...
Go way. Trollin'
I AM SAT0SHI NAKAMOTO.
LOL!......bitcoin......Lets see, did I put that in volatile, or non volatile memory?.........
Come on Tyler get your facts straight- this is most likely a hoax that this is the real Satoshi...most MSM are retracting their sories and admitting they got duped again. http://motherboard.vice.com/read/satoshis-pgp-keys-are-probably-backdate...
Everyone knows which Bitcoins belong to the real Satoshi, because he mined a huge number of them in 2009-2010, when very little computing power was required to do so, and then never spent them. As soon as Satoshi attempted to spend those Bitcoins, his true identity would be revealed.
I think everyone should be an expert on crypto currencies for the future but bitcoin has got to many defects as it exists today. Consider the fact the internet is globally fragile but locally always an option and I think after the ashes settle it could be used with "real stuff" as a starting point for local monetary systems.
I can't believe anyone fell for that bitcoin scam. Help me fill in the blank:
Buying something with no intrinsict value so it can be sold to future investors at a higher price is called a p_nzi scheme .
But as with all ponzi schemes, the first ones in make a LOT of money.
It's just recognizing that it's a ponzi, and getting out before it's too late. So yes, some people have made a lot of money on bitcoin.
But now, the returns are in percent, and not the dozens to thousands of multiples as in the beginning.
By that logic, if I spend a sizable portion of my physical gold to buy a house, that means I am skeptical of gold's intrinsic value.
Are you for real!
comparing converting crytocurrency(fake money) into gold(real money) to purchasing a house?
Opinions about the merits of bitcoin aside, this article employed a silly argument. It argued spending a money constitutes a demonstration of having a lack of confidence in that money. That's false.
The whole purpose of money is to spend it on other things. Exchanging bitcoin for gold, or gold for bitcoin, doesn't demonstrate a lack of confidence in either, just a preference to hold relatively more of one asset than another compared to current holdings.
If I own 5 houses and no gold, that I sell one of my houses to get some gold, that doesn't mean I don't value houses.
The purpose of money is not to spend it on other things. It is to enable a person to be able to buy other things with a readily exchangeable commodity, universally recognised that ALSO acts as a store of VALUE.
When gold goes down I don't mind - the printing presses are still running - it'll go back up soon enough. Bitcoin on the other hand is just digital fiat - I trust it's inherent value about as far as I could physically throw it. You just never know whether the next Bitcoin crash will be its death knell.
Gold on the other hand can't have a death knell - it's the inherent characteristics of gold that makes it money - no-one just randomly picked the element.
Gold can:
Act as a currency
As a medium of exchange
Is portable, durable, divisible and fungible (interchangeable)
It also acts as a store of VALUE (as it continues to be damn rare to this day).
It is this last facet that sets gold apart from other currencies and makes gold the perfect money - even when we want to find gold more readily (and thereby depreciate its value for our personal gain) we can't. So the value of gold is actually out of our hands - it's in the very nature of the yellow metal itself.
Is Bitcoin rare? They say it is. Damned if I can check whether more have been created.
They say ownership is 90% of the law. Damned if I'll store great wealth in digital form - sounds like a very foolish way of committing financial suicide to me.
Ok, if I offered you a money that you could never spend on other things, would you value it? Knowing it could never be converted to goods or services? Eagerly accumulate it? What would be the point? The whole point of money is you can use it to store value that you can cash out for goods and services at some future time.
Just because you don't like bitcoin doesn't make it fiat. "Fiat" is not a subjective evaluation. "Fiat" has a definition. It means the money derives its value from government decree. Bitcoin does not fit that definition.
Bitcoin derives its value from its use as money by traders who choose to use it that way. Just like gold or silver. Just because you don't personally choose to use bitcoin as money and would rather forgo distance money transfers from your economic life is merely your personal choice. You will suffer the associated economic burdens of being constrained to trading in person only with producers geographically close to you or relying upon 3rd party trust to mediate distance payments.
Bitcoin is durable, divisible, fungible, portable, scarce, and non-consumable. It is used as a store of value just as gold is.
You can view the source code of bitcoin to verify for yourself it qualifies as rare. It takes chemistry and physics know-how to understand why gold can't be manufactured. It takes mathematical and computer science know-how to understand why bitcoin can't be manufactured.
If you have the secret key of your bitcoin memorized, you have more secure ownership of it than if you hold physical gold.
You make some good points.
Howerever, Bitcoin as a trusted "store of value" is far from proven. Fiat is completely disproven. Gold and Silver, though not currencies in most (but not all) parts of the world has the best track record or all currencies ever.
I know where to store my transportable wealth. You can gamble with yours if you like.
As for transactions - why bother with Bitcoin? Fiat transfers are instant and global as well. Because their untraceable? I don't believe anything on the net is either untraceable or secure.
The horse was a proven mode of transport for thousands of years until the automobile, photographic film until the digital sensor. Now almopst no one rides a horse for transport and Kodak is out of business. This doesn't prove bitcoin will replace gold, but I'm saying civilisation has very often followed the trend of repurpusing something found in nature for other uses for 100s or 1000s of years until it is possible to invent something dedicated for that purpose (which usually does it better than the previous thing).
Humanity was unable to create decentralised money until bitcoin, so had to use things found in nature like gold or silver. Bitcoins like myself believe it is a better technology than gold is for this and therefore may replace it as the primary decentralised money system of the world. It may happen, it may not happen, but it is in my opinion foolish to rule out the possiblity.
Thanks. Fair enough. Respect.
SPIT coin is worthless!!!
What if Wright were to go to prison for tax evasion let's say, who then would be running the computer systems that runs Bitcoin? What happens when there's a huge system failure due to lack of constant maintenance? The larger it gets the more people involved to keep it moving and running just like any large computer system. If he is arrested, what happens to all the big coins currently in the system? Are they simply turned off? Will a government agency confiscate the coins for cash? All of the investors would be screwed.
Try a bit of self education about distributed peer to peer systems. There are no single points of failure in the Bitcoin network. Every computer that uses it is free maintain a copy of the blockchain.
At least 5000 people do so publicly (IE advertise that fact) .... many others undoubtedy do so privately. Scattered in locations all over the planet.
No government agency has the ability to turn them all off - and every one of them has a full record of transactions. Bullet proof security and resilience is why the tradional banks are investigating how they can use the same technology.
Bitcoin has no central computer systems. The users are the system.
Bitchcoin
Some time ago in India ,
some ppl started a party & invited whores & made them dance
They danced and the hosts showered huge number of banknotes on them,
Whores became so happy that they did whatever asked
Next day they went to police
because , a large no. of banknotes were fake.
-------------
Bitcoin is a fake currency
These pirate euroPeons(& americans) dont do anything but print
currency, bitcoin is a new avatar
a rather dangerous one
the digital currency can vanish
& stolen in a fraction of a second
remember Mt. Gox fiasco (looting)
and there also , euroPeons (pirates) were involved
Advice : save in gold, silver, platinum, diamonds i.e. tangibles
unless you are a thief or a criminal
junk
oops again
junk again
There are a couple very basic problems with bitcoin. It has zero backing and near zero liquidity. The vast majority of people "holding" bitcoin (90%) are doing so because they BELIEVE it's going to be worth more and WANT a financial return. They are viewing it as an investment, and not as a medium of exchange.
The problem? Everyone looks at their coin, and believe it's worth $450, and there's a $5billion market cap. However, only about $80 million worth trades per day.
So, that's essentially the amount that can be "withdrawn" per day. Even less if it's dropping in value. So if people all try and "cash out", there will be MANY more sellers than buyers.
The only way to "cash out" is if there is a NEW BUYER at that price. That's the ponzi scheme.
Simple question to holders of bitcoin. Are YOU willing to buy more right now? Buy more at $500? Continue buying at $1,000?
If you aren't willing to BUY at higher prices, then WHO WILL?
There would be a balance if it was used as a medium of exchange and simply circulated rather than being exchanged for a different money.
I say the same thing about silver, people believe it is going to be worth more, those of us that have silver should start using it for transactions where possible. This would be terrifying to the banking cartel.
There are a couple very basic problems with gold. It has zero backing and can't be exchanged to anyone further than arms length away. The vast majority of people "holding" gold (90%) are doing so because they BELIEVE it's going to be worth more and WANT a financial return. They are viewing it as an investment, and not as a medium of exchange.
The problem? Everyone looks at their coin, and believe it's worth $5000, and there's a $7trillion market cap. However, most of the trading every day is paper gold which dictates the price of physical gold. The traders never hold any actual gold because deliver and storagte is too expensive and cumbersome.
So if people all try and "cash out", there will be MANY more sellers than buyers.
The only way to "cash out" is if there is a NEW BUYER at that price. That's the ponzi scheme.
Simple question to holders of gold. Are YOU willing to buy more right now? Buy more at $2000? Continue buying at $5,000?
If you aren't willing to BUY at higher prices, then WHO WILL?
Ohhh! They're on to me! Again! I think I'll stick with tulips!
I posted this in another thread about BTC, but got no answer, perhaps someone here can help.
Whether the fiat fluctuates or the BTC does, unless BTC is the only game in town, there is a relative value which can increase, decrease, or be manipulated. The total is not of any concern as there is a fixed amount of gold, yet the value of gold can be wildly influenced.
Keeping score isn't my main concern. If I can form a larger and larger group to mine more BTC, could not the elite do so, as well? And with their better resources (and probable head start) would their lead not increase, and exponentially grow, at that? In other words, isn't it already too late to get in?
Not only could the value of BTC be manipulated, but if that value is tied into fiat, large moves in the BTC market could be used to devalue or revalue fiat as well. Central banks with lots of BTC could play one against the other to their advantage, and to our detriment. It would be like having two chequing accounts that write cheques to each other to cover the cheques written, you see?
Ultimately we can use gold to short the Fed. But gold can be confiscated. Cryptos make this (tentative) balance into a three-body problem, the consequences of which are impossible to determine.
Is BTC not just a shadow tool of control (by influencing fiat) when cash is made illegal?
advTHANKSance for any help.
Your thoughts are overly ambitious. Bitcoin can no more influence a major currency (or even a minor one) than a penny stock can influence the entire stock market.
Daily market limit for Bitcoin is about $100 million. The so called $5 billion mark cap is useless because it can't be used. The only way than Bitcoin gets any liquidity is when people inject money by buying coins. Every time someone sells a coin, it removes liquidity. Net daily liquidity is zero.
Meaning Bitcoin can't do SFA about influencing any other currency.
As for manipulating Bitcoin? Extremely easy because it's so lightly traded and has no liquidity. That's why a month ago it went from $300 to $500 and dropped in an hour or two back to $300. Why did it drop? Because they ran out of buyers at $500.
I expect exactly the same thing to happen this week or next, if it gets over $550. lot of people will try and cash out and the price will plummet.
"Daily market limit for Bitcoin is about $100 million."
TYVM.