"New Research Suggests [Fluoridating Water] Is Dramatically Misguided"

George Washington's picture

Preface: One of our pet peeves is when erroneous groupthink persists even in the face of contradictory evidence.

As shown below, water fluoridation is based on very shaky science.  And yet – despite the science – the big dental associations in the U.S. and other countries continue to push it as safe and effective.

The Guardian reported last week:

Health experts are calling for a moratorium on water fluoridation, claiming that the benefits of such schemes, as opposed to those of topical fluoride (directly applied to the teeth), are unproved.

 

***

 

Stephen Peckham, director and professor of health policy at Kent University’s centre for health service studies, said: “Water fluoridation was implemented before statistics had been compiled on its safety or effectiveness. It was the only cannon shot they had in their armoury. It gets rolled out, becomes – in England – policy and then you look for evidence to support it.

 

“The fat debate [whereby fat used to be the big enemy in food before that was revised] is an example of evidence getting built up to support a theory. It’s a dental health policy that’s got up a head of steam and people have been reluctant to see it criticised.

 

You can’t really confidently say that water fluoridation is either safe or effective.

Newsweek reported last June:

You might think, then, that fluoridated water’s efficacy as a cavity preventer would be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. But new research suggests that assumption is dramatically misguided; while using fluoridated toothpaste has been proven to be good for oral health, consuming fluoridated water may have no positive impact.

 

The Cochrane Collaboration, a group of doctors and researchers known for their comprehensive reviews—which are widely regarded as the gold standard of scientific rigor in assessing effectiveness of public health policies—recently set out to find out if fluoridation reduces cavities. They reviewed every study done on fluoridation that they could find, and then winnowed down the collection to only the most comprehensive, well-designed and reliable papers. Then they analyzed these studies’ results, and published their conclusion in a review earlier this month.

 

The review identified only three studies since 1975—of sufficient quality to be included—that addressed the effectiveness of fluoridation on tooth decay in the population at large. These papers determined that fluoridation does not reduce cavities to a statistically significant degree in permanent teeth, says study co-author Anne-Marie Glenny, a health science researcher at Manchester University in the United Kingdom. The authors found only seven other studies worthy of inclusion dating prior to 1975.

 

The authors also found only two studies since 1975 that looked at the effectiveness of reducing cavities in baby teeth, and found fluoridation to have no statistically significant impact here, either.

 

The scientists also found “insufficient evidence” that fluoridation reduces tooth decay in adults (children excluded).

 

“From the review, we’re unable to determine whether water fluoridation has an impact on caries levels in adults,” Glenny says. (“Tooth decay,” “cavities” and “caries” all mean the same thing: breakdown of enamel by mouth-dwelling microbes.)

 

“Frankly, this is pretty shocking,” says Thomas Zoeller, a scientist at UMass-Amherst uninvolved in the work. “This study does not support the use of fluoride in drinking water.” Trevor Sheldon concurred. Sheldon is the dean of the Hull York Medical School in the United Kingdom who led the advisory board that conducted systematic review of water fluoridation in 2000, that came to similar conclusions as the Cochrane review. The lack of good evidence of effectiveness has shocked him. “I had assumed because of everything I’d heard that water fluoridation reduces cavities but I was completely amazed by the lack of evidence,” he says. “My prior view was completely reversed.”

 

“There’s really hardly any evidence” the practice works, Sheldon adds. “And if anything there may be some evidence the other way.” One 2001 study covered in the Cochrane review of two neighboring British Columbia communities found that when fluoridation was stopped in one city, cavity prevalence actually went down slightly amongst schoolchildren, while cavity rates in the fluoridated community remained stable.

 

Overall the review suggests that stopping fluoridation would be unlikely to increase the risk of tooth decay, says Kathleen Thiessen, a senior scientist at the Oak Ridge Center for Risk Analysis, which does human health risk assessments of environmental contaminants.

 

“The sad story is that very little has been done in recent years to ensure that fluoridation is still needed [or] to ensure that adverse effects do not happen,” says Dr. Philippe Grandjean, an environmental health researcher and physician at Harvard University.

 

The scientists also couldn’t find enough evidence to support the oft-repeated notion that fluoridation reduces dental health disparities among different socioeconomic groups, which the CDC and others use as a rationale for fluoridating water.

 

“The fact that there is insufficient information to determine whether fluoridation reduces social inequalities in dental health is troublesome given that this is often cited as a reason for fluoridating water,” say Christine Till and Ashley Malin, researchers at Toronto’s York University.

 

Studies that attest to the effectiveness of fluoridation were generally done before the widespread usage of fluoride-containing dental products like rinses and toothpastes in the 1970s and later, according to the recent Cochrane study. So while it may have once made sense to add fluoride to water, it no longer appears to be necessary or useful, Thiessen says.

 

It has also become clear in the last 15 years that fluoride primarily acts topically, according to the CDC. It reacts with the surface of the tooth enamel, making it more resistant to acids excreted by bacteria. Thus, there’s no good reason to swallow fluoride and subject every tissue of your body to it, Thiessen says.

 

Another 2009 review by the Cochrane group clearly shows that fluoride toothpaste prevents cavities, serving as a useful counterpoint to fluoridation’s uncertain benefits.

 

***

 

“I couldn’t believe the low quality of the research” on fluoridation, Sheldon says.

 

***

 

Cavity rates have declined by similar amounts in countries with and without fluoridation.

 

***

 

Sheldon says that if fluoridation were to be submitted anew for approval today, “nobody would even think about it” due to the shoddy evidence of effectiveness and obvious downside of fluorosis.

 

***

 

The CDC and others “are somehow suspending disbelief,” Sheldon says. They are “all in the mindset that this is a really good thing, and just not accepting that they might be wrong.” Sheldon and others suggest pro-fluoridation beliefs are entrenched and will not easily change, despite the poor data quality and lack of evidence from the past 40 years.

Indeed, an overwhelming number of scientific studies conclude that cavity levels are falling worldwide … even in countries which don’t fluoridate water.

World Health Organization Data (2004)
Tooth Decay Trends (12 year olds) in Fluoridated vs. Unfluoridated Countries:

who dmft An Overwhelming Number of Scientific Studies Conclude That Cavity Levels are Falling Worldwide ... Even In Countries Which Dont Fluoridate Water

And the scientific literature shows that – when fluoridation of water supplies is stopped – cavities do not increase (but may in some cases actually decrease). See this, this, this, this, this and this.

A couple of weeks ago, the British Medical Journal reported that Americans lose a lot more of their teeth than the Brits … even though the U.S. fluoridates a lot more of its water than the UK.

Fluoridating may water also cause reduction in IQ, depression and a variety of other illnesses.

The Guardian notes:

Critics cite studies claiming to have identified a number of possible negative associations of fluoridation, including bone cancer in boys, bladder cancer, hypothyroidism, hip fractures and lower IQ in children.

Newsweek reports:

A growing number of studies have suggested … that the chemical may present a number of health risks, for example interfering with the endocrine system and increasing the risk of impaired brain function; two studies in the last few months, for example, have linked fluoridation to ADHD and underactive thyroid.

But how did the myth that water fluoridation is effective and safe get started in the first place?

The government allegedly ordered Manhattan Project scientists to whitewash the toxicity of flouride (flouride is a byproduct in the production of weapons-grade plutonium and uranium). As Project Censored noted in 1999:

Recently declassified government documents have shed new light on the decades-old debate over the fluoridation of drinking water, and have added to a growing body of scientific evidence concerning the health effects of fluoride. Much of the original evidence about fluoride, which suggested it was safe for human consumption in low doses, was actually generated by “Manhattan Project” scientists in the 1940s. As it turns out, these officials were ordered by government powers to provide information that would be “useful in litigation” and that would obfuscate its improper handling and disposal. The once top-secret documents, say the authors, reveal that vast quantities of fluoride, one of the most toxic substances known, were required for the production of weapons-grade plutonium and uranium. As a result, fluoride soon became the leading health hazard to bomb program workers and surrounding communities.

 

Studies commissioned after chemical mishaps by the medical division of the “Manhattan Project” document highly controversial findings. For instance, toxic accidents in the vicinity of fluoride-producing facilities like the one near Lower Penns Neck, New Jersey, left crops poisoned or blighted, and humans and livestock sick. Symptoms noted in the findings included extreme joint stiffness, uncontrollable vomiting and diarrhea, severe headaches, and death. These and other facts from the secret documents directly contradict the findings concurrently published in scientific journals which praised the positive effects of fluoride.

 

Regional environmental fluoride releases in the northeast United States also resulted in several legal suits against the government by farmers after the end of World War II, according to Griffiths and Bryson. Military and public health officials feared legal victories would snowball, opening the door to further suits which might have kept the bomb program from continuing to use fluoride. With the Cold War underway, the New Jersey lawsuits proved to be a roadblock to America’s already full-scale production of atomic weapons. Officials were subsequently ordered to protect the interests of the government.

 

After the war, … the dissemination of misinformation continued.

And Edward Bernays – the father of modern propaganda techniques – may have been the mastermind behind the “safe and effective” myth.

Austrian economist Murray Rothbard wrote in 1993:

The mobilization, the national clamor for fluoridation, and the stamping of opponents with the right-wing kook image, was all generated by the public relations man hired by Oscar Ewing to direct the drive. [Ewing was the chief counsel for Alcoa aluminum company, and fluoride is a byproduct of aluminum production.] For Ewing hired none other than Edward L. Bernays, the man with the dubious honor of being called the “father of public relations.” Bernays, the nephew of Sigmund Freud, was called “The Original Spin Doctor” in an admiring article in the Washington Post on the occasion of the old manipulator’s 100th birthday in late 1991.

 

***

 

As a retrospective scientific article pointed out about the fluoridation movement, one of its widely distributed dossiers listed opponents of fluoridation “in alphabetical order reputable scientists, convicted felons, food faddists, scientific organizations, and the Ku Klux Klan.” (Bette Hileman, “Fluoridation of Water,” Chemical and Engineering News 66 [August 1, 1988], p. 37; quoted in Griffiths, p. 63) In his 1928 book Propaganda, Bernays laid bare the devices he would use: Speaking of the “mechanism which controls the public mind,” which people like himself could manipulate, Bernays added that “Those who manipulate the unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country…our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of…” And the process of manipulating leaders of groups, “either with or without their conscious cooperation,” will “automatically influence” the members of such groups.

 

In describing his practices as PR man for Beech-Nut Bacon, Bernays tells how he would suggest to physicians to say publicly that “it is wholesome to eat bacon.” For, Bernays added, he “knows as a mathematical certainty that large numbers of persons will follow the advice of their doctors because he (the PR man) understands the psychological relationship of dependence of men on their physicians.” (Edward L. Bernays, Propaganda [New York: Liveright, 1928], pp. 9, 18, 49, 53. Quoted in Griffiths, p.63) Add “dentists” to the equation, and substitute “fluoride” for “bacon,” and we have the essence of the Bernays propaganda campaign.

 

Before the Bernays campaign, fluoride was largely known in the public mind as the chief ingredient of bug and rat poison; after the campaign, it was widely hailed as a safe provider of healthy teeth and gleaming smiles.

And award-winning BBC producer and investigative journalist Christopher Bryson writes:

[Bernays] operated from the same office building, One Wall Street, where the Alcoa lawyer Oscar Ewing had also worked. In 1950 Ewing had been the top government official to sign off on the endorsement of water fluoridation, as Federal Security Administrator in charge of the US Public Health Service.

 

“Do you recall working with Oscar Ewing on fluoridation?” I asked Bernays.

 

“Yes,” he replied.

 

***

 

Bernays’s personal papers detail his involvement in one of the nation’s earliest and biggest water fluoridation battles ….

Bryson goes on for pages describing how Bernays master-minded the campaign to convince Americans to accept water fluoridation.

And watch this brief interview:

(The whole 25-minute interview is a must-watch.)

Even Chemical and Engineering News noted in 1999:

According to Edward Groth III, an associate technical director of Consumers Union who wrote his Ph.D. thesis in biology on the fluoridation controversy in 1973, pro- and antifluoridationists approach the issue from completely different perspectives. “Proponents see it as a simple public health measure, effective and safe, which they need to ‘sell’ to the public, almost like a box of soap.

In other words, the U.S. government apparently hired the leading propagandist to create the myth that fluoride is safe and effective in order to protect its bomb-making program.

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Wild E Coyote's picture

Very good article. Now that origin of Flouride is exposed, I wonder if someone with authority will do something about this.

More Interestingly the article shows that they was no clear benefits of using fluoridated water based on declassified documents.
But I would love to see is a declassified document that shows how Flouride actually makes Americans dumber and easily manipulated, based on which the whole water fluoridation program got started.
After all if the problem was Flouride as a waste by product there are many other ways to get rid off it,

Felix da Kat's picture

And also, several videos that explain the link between Fluoride and lower IQ development. (Yes, they really do want to dumb-down the population imo.)

http://fluoride.mercola.com/

Element's picture

 

 

And it clearly has worked, zheep are the result!  lol.

By the way, quack, the concentration in ground water that you cite, is nowhere near recommended consumption levels, or that used in drinking water. You are trying to pretend it is the same thing and produces the same chronic effects.

The effect of tooth lattice unit cell strengthening by cation inclusion is maximized at EXTREMELY LOW CONCENTRATIONS.

Which is why such extremely low harmless concentrations are recommended and used.

Perhaps you'd like to remove the chlorine from the tap water too, so we can all start catching cholera again? And before you say, "why, most certainly yes!", quack, you did it in Rio De Janeiro half the city would be dead in ten years.

Now if you really wanted to harm "dah people", that's how you'd do it, quack.

Felix da Kat's picture
10 Facts About Fluoride From: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/04/30/water-fluoridation-facts.aspx

1. Most Developed Countries Do Not Fluoridate Their Water

More people drink fluoridated water in the US alone than in the rest of the world combined. In Western Europe, for instance, 97 percent of the population drinks non-fluoridated water.

2. Fluoridated Countries Do Not Have Less Tooth Decay Than Non-Fluoridated Countries

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), there is no discernible difference in tooth decay between developed countries that fluoridate their water and those that do not. The decline in tooth decay the US has experienced over the last 60 years, which is often attributed to fluoridated water, has likewise occurred in all developed countries (most of which do not fluoridate their water).

3. Fluoride Affects Many Tissues in Your Body Besides Your Teeth

Many assume that consuming fluoride is only an issue that involves your dental health. But according to a 500-page scientific review, fluoride is an endocrine disruptor that can affect your bones, brain, thyroid gland, pineal gland and even your blood sugar levels.2

There have been over 34 human studies and 100 animal studies linking fluoride to brain damage,3 including lower IQ in children, and studies have shown that fluoride toxicity can lead to a wide variety of health problems, including:

Increased lead absorption Disrupts synthesis of collagen Hyperactivity and/or lethargy Muscle disorders Thyroid disease Arthritis Dementia Bone fractures Lowered thyroid function Bone cancer (osteosarcoma) Inactivates 62 enzymes and inhibits more than 100 Inhibited formation of antibodies Genetic damage and cell death Increased tumor and cancer rate Disrupted immune system Damaged sperm and increased infertility

 

4. Fluoridation is Not a "Natural" Process

Fluoride is naturally occurring in some areas, leading to high levels in certain water supplies "naturally." Fluoridation advocates often use this to support its safety, however naturally occurring substances are not automatically safe (think of arsenic, for instance).

Further, the fluoride added to most water supplies is not the naturally occurring variety but rather fluorosilicic acid, which is captured in air pollution control devices of the phosphate fertilizer industry. As FAN reported:

"This captured fluoride acid is the most contaminated chemical added to public water supplies, and may impose additional risks to those presented by natural fluorides. These risks include a possible cancer hazard from the acid's elevated arsenic content, and a possible neurotoxic hazard from the acid's ability--under some conditions--to increase the erosion of lead from old pipes."

5. 40% of American Teenagers Show Visible Signs of Fluoride Overexposure

About 40 percent of American teens have dental fluorosis,4 a condition that refers to changes in the appearance of tooth enamel that are caused by long-term ingestion of fluoride during the time teeth are forming. In some areas, fluorosis rates are as high as 70-80 percent, with some children suffering from advanced forms.

It's likely this is a sign that children are receiving large amounts of fluoride from multiple sources, including not only drinking water but also fluoride toothpaste, processed beverages/foods, fluoride pesticides, tea, non-stick pans and some fluorinated drugs. So not only do we need to address the issue of water fluoridation, but how this exposure is magnified by other sources of fluoride that are now common.

It's also important to realize that dental fluorosis is NOT "just cosmetic." It can also be an indication that the rest of your body, such as your bones and internal organs, including your brain, have been overexposed to fluoride as well. In other words, if fluoride is having a visually detrimental effect on the surface of your teeth, you can be virtually guaranteed that it's also damaging other parts of your body, such as your bones.

6. For Infants, Fluoridated Water Provides No Benefits, Only Risks

Infants who consume formula made with fluoridated tap water may consume up to 1,200 micrograms of fluoride, or about 100 times more than the recommended amounts. Such "spikes" of fluoride exposure during infancy provide no known advantage to teeth, but they do have plenty of known harmful effects.

Babies given fluoridated water in their formula are not only more likely to develop dental fluorosis, but may also have reduced IQ scores. In fact, a Harvard University meta-analysis funded by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) concluded that children who live in areas with highly fluoridated water have "significantly lower" IQ scores than those who live in low fluoride areas.5 A number of prominent dental researchers now advise that parents should not add fluoridated water to baby formula.

7. Fluoride Supplements Have Never Been Approved by the FDA

The fluoride supplements sometimes prescribed to those who are not drinking fluoridated water have not been approved by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for the prevention of tooth decay. In fact, the fluoride supplements that the FDA has reviewed have been rejected.

"So with fluoridation, we are adding to the water a prescription-strength dose of a drug that has never been approved by the FDA," FAN noted.

8. Fluoride is the Only Medicine Added to Public Water

Fluoride is added to drinking water to prevent a disease (tooth decay), and as such becomes a medicine by FDA definition. While proponents claim this is no different than adding vitamin D to milk, fluoride is not an essential nutrient. Many European nations have rejected fluoride for the very reason that delivering medication via the water supply would be inappropriate. Water fluoridation is a form of mass medication that denies you the right to informed consent.

9. Swallowing Fluoride Provides Little Benefit to Teeth

It is now widely recognized that fluoride's only justifiable benefit comes from topical contact with teeth, which even the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has acknowledged. Adding it to water and pills, which are swallowed, offers little, if any, benefit to your teeth.

10. Disadvantaged Communities are the Most Disadvantaged by Fluoride

Fluoride toxicity is exacerbated by conditions that occur much more frequently in low-income areas. This includes:

  • Nutrient deficiencies
  • Infant formula consumption
  • Kidney disease
  • Diabetes
Kefeer's picture

People, we all know that scientists do not lie or always tell the truth and always set money, pride, arrogance and accolades aside for the common good.   May I sell you a Global Warming bridge?

 

Of course the fluoride in water isn't even the same type as any studies on the substance actually used in municipal water supplies.  I'll bet the studies on topical fluoride are just as flawed.

 

Was a toxic waste then and always has been and people are the toxic dump.

morethan1's picture

Really guys?! With ALL the significant issues going on you're going to focus on something that's been implemented for 70 years?! I'm a foot soldier in the water industry and everything I know on the subject tells me it's SAFE! Hell, everyone in the industry I deal with thinks you are all a bunch of Kooks. Look up the facts of tooth decay around the turn of the century (1900s) and dentures were given as graduation presents. WE all drink the water we treat!  Anyway, if you don't want it, buy a Brita filter and remove it from the water you drink. Problem solved! Now go look for IMPORTANT issues to discuss.

Flankspeed60's picture

It's a major bitch to be so heavily vested in something you know absolutely to be true, only to find out - it ain't. Been there. Best advice? Just suck it up buttercup. There's a lot more to come.

Kefeer's picture

For someone who claims to be the water expert, then you would know the Brita filter doesn't remove fluoride moron.

Xibalba's picture

"Moron" is probably harsh....He's just had too much fluoride and his pineal gland is calcified.  Thus he cannot 'see', with his own eyes, the control he's under.  

superdave's picture

Our government lies to us !  Say it ain't so, Joe!

bonin006's picture

Damn. All these years I thought General Ripper was just a psycho.

LibertarianMenace's picture

Usually, those ahead of the curve are considered to be, well, psycho.

sam site's picture

The  Oscar Ewing bribe is described in Eustace Mullins book Murder by Injection.  Search for in Congressional Record of 1952 also.

The Bribe see below - "Ewing went on the ALCOA payroll in 1944 at a salary of $750,000 per year, which was astronomical for the time."

 

Did find this

http://www.datehookup.com/Thread-1337332.htm

 

"Congressional record in 1952 was warning against the system which was put into effect, and the fluoridation has been in the water ever since"

"Sodium fluoride has been used in several concentration camps in Europe to control the slave populations, make them more docile"

"Oscar Ewing"  "Director Federal Security Agency 1948" "Public Health Service" "Oscar Ewing never denied that he accepted a $750,000 bribe from the Rockefellers to use his office to put fluoridation over on the people of the United States"

 

"When a government bureau comes out strongly for something or against something it's because they have been told to do it, or they've been bribed to do it" "The D*ckinson Statement: A Mind-Boggling Thesis"

"Fluoridation-Mind Control of the Masses" "Sodium Fluoride" "Murder by Injection will not be added to the Library collection"

Censorship "talk shows" "Clive Thomas Show" Controversial "The World Order" "The Foundations" "Rockefeller Foundation" brainwashed "You cannot be an official of an American foundation like the Rockefeller Foundation unless you undergo the Tavistock treatment"

"The Tavistock treatment" "Tavistock 1924" "British department of psychological warfare" "Esalen Institute and Aspen Institute of Humanistics studies are direct spin-offs of the Tavistock Institute and their primary objective is the brainwashing of people who they need to control in order to maintain a sort of iron curtain over public expression in the United States" Fluoride

"The WHO studies on fluoridation were all made up, fabricated" "Memorial Sloan-Ketter Institute in New York is the temple of cancer treatment in the United States" "Sodium fluoride becomes part of the bones" "Many of the black nobility still have homeopathic physicians and the most famous one is the queen of England, who herself is treated regularly by homeopathic physicians"

 

 

also this

http://ahealedplanet.net/fluoride.htm

 

"Although the industrial scientists’ well-paid efforts were important, it was up to a lawyer to literally ram fluoridation down the American public’s throat.  In 1947, ALCOA’s lead counsel, Oscar Ewing, was named to head the Federal Security Agency ("FSA"), which later became the U.S. Health, Education and Welfare Department (today it is called the Department of Health and Human Services, or "HHS"). 

 

Ewing went on the ALCOA payroll in 1944 at a salary of $750,000 per year, which was astronomical for the time.

 

The FSA oversaw the PHS, and the same year that Ewing began at the FSA, he initiated a national fluoridation project through the PHS, which helped to build a bandwagon for fluoridation in the absence of any credible scientific data. 

 

At that time, there were two cities undergoing water-supply fluoridation tests: Grand Rapids, Michigan and Newburgh, New York.  The tests were to run for ten to fifteen years to collect data.  Ewing began campaigning for a national fluoridation program when those tests were only two years old, and no significant data was available or even possible. 

None other than Edward Bernays, the “father of public relations” and one of the greatest propagandists of all time, designed Ewing’s public relations campaign for fluoridation.  Bernays also designed the campaign by the American Tobacco Company to addict American women to tobacco, and Joseph Goebbels used Bernays’s work in his Nazi propaganda campaigns against the Jews.[17]

 

 

ExploitedCitizen's picture

The cause of cavities and dental plaque is sugars/carbohydrates.  Eat a paleo diet and you'll never need to visit your dentist again.

I'm 33, only time I had a cavity was in college when I was downing a lot of pizza.  Been 10 years, no cavitiesm no plaque, nothing.  If I eat sugar/carbs, instantly feel the film on my teeth.  Fluoride is a joke.

Radical Marijuana's picture

That kind of article no longer surprises me,

which is yet another tragic trajectory itself.

EVERYTHING ELSE follows that pattern of social facts.

WHILE, ALL of those ARE getting WORSE, FASTER!!!

I collect some links, including thoughts on fluoridation:

PROFIT FROM DISEASE

As that states, I watched this video back in 2008:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3y8uwtxrHo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hW0_UMtsb4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NFOnQQMnx4

Fluoride Deception Part 1, 2, 3,

10 minutes each ... 30 minutes of video

Like most other people, I used to trust authorities more.

I used to "believe" the dentist associations were honest.

& I used to think that fluoride for children
(making their teeth more cavity resistant)
was a good idea, but now I 'believe' that I
was being tricked by deceit, and mistaken.

While fluoride may make enamel harder,
I now think it has way too many other
bad side-effects, that overwhelm the
possible dental benefits too totally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYnEer0KbNY

That is an entertaining 5 minute music video
dramatizing issues regarding the fluoridation.

It now disturbs me that I used to 'believe'
the fluoridation lies, and thus, I probably
contributed to providing fluoride to kids,
which now is something I tend to regret,
but, which I could not figure out better
the appropriate degree of that regret,
since, I can not know for sure just
HOW bad the fluoride treatments
actually were, since ALL of the
so-called "science" probably
was too perverted to rely on.

And so, issues like adverse affects upon thyroid function
from fluoridation are probably bad, but, very difficult to
decide exactly how bad they were, back when we were
being lied to more effectively, & believed the lies more.

More repetition of problems with fluoridation:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/05/11/toxic-fluoride-contaminates-iceland-volcanic-ash-and-is-killing-animals.aspx

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/08/09/fluoride-and-pineal-gland.aspx?e_cid=20110809_DNL_art_1

"... There are so many scientific studies showing the direct, toxic effects of fluoride on your body, it's truly remarkable that it's NOT considered a scientific consensus by now."

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/05/29/fluoride-toxic-effects.aspx?e_cid=20120529_DNL_art_2

Yet another article summarizing why
adding fluoride to water was always
a bad idea promoted through LIES:

Unethical, Ineffective, Toxic and Compulsory


I repeat that one bothers me, particularly,
because I believed in that huge lie before!

As with how much I hated finding out about fluoride,
the more I get it rubbed in my face about Aspartame
etc. the more I dislike remembering how stupid I was,

which then makes me think about how stupid
I probably still am now ... but do not know it!

http://www.naturalnews.com/031073_science_tyranny.html#ixzz1BfjZy9w1

The downfall of science and the rise of intellectual tyranny

By Mike Adams, January 21, 2011.

The very reputation of so-called “science” has been irreparably damaged by the invocation of the term “science” by GMO lackeys, pesticide pushers, mercury advocates and fluoride poisoners who all claim to have science on their side. It seems that every toxin, contamination and chemical disaster that now infects our planet has been evangelized in the name of “science.”

The primary mechanism behind that pattern of social facts is POLITICAL FUNDING ENFORCING FRAUDS. The reasons for how and why that is automatically getting WORSE, FASTER, are that nobody else can compete with the established systems, which already enable private banks to make the public "money" supply out of nothing as debts. Nobody else can effectively compete with the sociopolitical systems that the banksters have built.

I have spent the last few decades working on the problems of POLITICAL FUNDING in the Canadian context, including two court cases against the government of Canada, taking up a total of 15 years, regarding laws that control the funding of political parties.

I REPEAT THE 1 CONSISTENT THING I FOUND:

THE MORE ONE LEARNS, THE WORSE IT GETS!

The funding of the political process in the USA is orders of magnitude worse than in Canada, although all NATO countries follow basically the same overall pattern of bankster controlled governments, where their political puppets are voted for by enough of the masses of muppets, in order to keep the established systems going and growing WORSE, FASTER.

The ONLY things that change are which particular people are the best available professional hypocrites that happen to then dominate the political processes. As far as I can tell, NOBODY who learns more about any relevant issue can actually do anything sufficiently significant to really change those, because they can NEVER effectively compete inside of the established political systems, which are already almost totally based upon runaway POLITICAL FUNDING ENFORCING FRAUD VICIOUS SPIRALS ...

Overall, the way that I see things is that the ruling classes have waged War on Consciousness. Returning to the particular issue of fluoridation, and recalling the effect of fluoride upon various glands in the human body, I regard the symbolically most significant of those as the effect upon the pineal gland, which is widely regarded as one of the main points of connection between the spiritual flows of energy through the material body. 

Fluoridation of water supplies, driven by the atomic bomb building program, is quite the perverse example of how the War on Consciousness has generally worked. However, the greater tragedy, according to all of my studies and political experiments regarding that during the previous several decades, is that I am currently forced to come to the conclusion, which is overwhelmingly supported by all the rational evidence and logical arguments that I am currently aware of, that more than 99% of the general population has already LOST that War on Consciousness.

While I personally like to read articles, such as those from George Washington on Zero Hedge above, I am NOT aware of anyone who has any practical ways to overcome POLITICAL FUNDING ENFORCING FRAUD VICIOUS SPIRALS.

By their own follies they perished, the fools.

-- Homer, The Odyssey

Verily 'tis the sorest of all human ills,
to abound in knowledge and yet
have no power over action.

-- Herodotus, The History, quoting Thersander.

The degree to which the mass fluoridation campaign of public water supplies was successful demonstrates the degree to which the vast majority of people have already LOST the War on Consciousness. While, of course, I would agree with ending that fluoridation of the public water supplies, as with all of the other similar campaigns, from a relatively more objective point of view those are too little, too late, and too trivial to matter much anymore ... The degree to which enough people would have to profoundly change the ways that they think, in order to cope with the overall War on Consciousness, are now too great for enough of them to do, since they have already LOST that War on Consciousness.

dogbreath's picture

Marijuana,  

 

Do you hang in edmonton ever

Radical Marijuana's picture

One summer, in 1980, I lived in Edmonton, on the University of Alberta campus, but I have never been back since. For the last twenty years I have spent several years in British Columbia, mostly Vancouver Island, and the rest in Montréal, Québec ... I have no plans to return to Edmonton. (During that time, my home has also been the HeadQuarters of the Marijuana Party of Canada, as it is now.)

dogbreath's picture

i met a couple of volounteers one time seeking signatures so that you could register the party.  I was wondering if one of them was you.  2004 I think.  I'd just a soon see weed stay underground and the cops quit harrasing people.  I'm happy not to let .gov regulate one more thing,  they fuck up everything else.

 

I really like you point about the war on cosciousness.

Radical Marijuana's picture

The currently most probable "regulations" for "legalized" marijuana will amount to Pot Prohibition 2.0, based on Reefer Madness 2.0. Those "regulations" are most likely NOT going to be based upon the more hemp truth, but rather, based on compromises with the same old huge lies.

As with fluoridation, etc., after huge lies have been promoted for long enough, more truth no longer has a fighting chance ... which was my point about the degree to which the vast majority of people have already LOST the War Against Their Consciousness!

Even AFTER the majority of people no longer believe the huge lies about marijuana, those huge lies still are actually controlling the bogus ways that marijuana gets so-called "legalized." Similarly, the alleged "ending" of fluoridation, etc., tends to adapt to perpetuate the deeply entrenched morbid social habits that were established previously.

Abstractly, from Le Chatelier's Principle in chemistry, to Romer's Rule in evolution, systems tend to adapt the minimum they have to in order to stay the same (unless they are pushed past the point where they can not longer adapt.) Therefore, "legalized" marijuana is turning out to be a bullshit-based tool of exploitation, which is NOT much better than the previous tool of persecution that existed when cannabis was criminalized.

People who have suffered the effects of fluoridation upon their bodies, especially in their glands, for decades, do NOT suddenly recover after the end of that fluoridation. Rather, as with almost everything else, the deeply entrenched systems of legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, tend to perpetuate themselves, and only change in the least possible ways, after it is overwhelmingly demonstrated that those were built on lies.

dogbreath's picture

You remind me of that saying,   You can lead a horse to water but...............".   We are on our own realizing that regardless of the damage we have endured, to still bushwack thru the bullshit as the path to enlightenment  and that it is a narrow twisted and obscure path.   Discovery and education with the help of the innocent can help.

 

What if everyone studied astrology.....   There would be cults on every street corner 

BendGuyhere's picture

Of course: It ALWAYS comes back to THE CHILDREN...Pro-flouride ZOMBIES are SOOOO concerned about THE CHILDREN. BULLSHIT.

IF the children, or anyone else don't 1) BRUSH AND FLOSS 2) VISIT THE DENTIST then GUESS WHAT:

NO AMOUNT OF FORCED CONSUMPTION OF NEUROTOXIC FLUORIDE WILL PREVENT THEIR BEAUTIFUL TEETH FROM ROTTING AND FALLING OUT!

YUP-THIS IS ALSO ESTABLISHED SCIENCE, BASED ON NUMEROUS STUDIES.

Nanur's picture

Back in my day, when the government wanted to add flouride to our water, a bunch of "libertards" had a fit and stopped it.

sam site's picture

 

“I couldn’t believe the low quality of the research” on fluoridation.  Funny you could also say that about Vaccines, GMOs and Chemtrails.

Also to say that fluoridated water was necessary to "protect its bomb-making program." is ridiculous.  As if there was no other affordable way to dispose of nuclear industrial fluoride waste than to feed it to humans is beyond ludicrous.

Fluoride, Vaccines, GMOs and Chemtrails are all part of a poisoning and handicapping agenda by a foreign cabal that has been controlling America since it took control in the 1913 Fed Act.

This handicapping agenda explains why 95% of Americans display a blind allegiance to the Establishment.  They have been emotionally and chemically handicapped by these poisons deliberately placed in our food, water, medicine and environment.

BTW top US Public Health official Oscar Ewing accepted a $700,000 bribe from JD Rockefeller Jr in 1947 to order America to start drinking the poison.  This is in the Congressional Record in a startling exposure to Congress in 1952.

Our reps werre scared sh*tless of the secret Cabal ruling America and avoided rocking the boat so the poisoning campaign continued.  There have been 22 world wide studies showing fluoride produces low IQ children.  Just what the Cabal wanted.

Ewing went onto to establish the Raleigh Research Triange Park with the bribe and made his family rich at everyone elses expense.

 

 

 

 

 

gggggggg

 

Hope Copy's picture

and during this time the Rockerfellers had (have, below the 'radar now') an organic farm.  LoL

George Washington's picture

Link for the bribe to push fluoride, please?

Radical Marijuana's picture

See sam site comment, posted below.

Element's picture

 

 

I don't suppose you considered consulting science about an actual physical mechanism, huh George? Or of speaking to a geochemist? You know, the people who discovered and systematically measured how fluoride works to strengthen teeth, and published the results? I did your basic research homework for you, but I'm sure it won't make a scrap of difference to you, that you've 'cited' in bunch of quacks, and crap like Newsweek! etc.

Firstly, the basics you need GEORGE, to understand the topic of crystalline strengthening, based on cation sizes of atoms within a crystal lattice. Yes, that's right GEORGE, your teeth are crystalline structures of what are called 'atoms', so pay attention.

The process is formally called "Substitution Solid Solution" (SSS). It is a fundamental geochemical process that occurs over the entire volume of this planet. The Planet is mostly crystals, like your teeth, and bones, so this is kinda relevant.

As your teeth grow, it is crystals that are growing, and it takes years, because they are growing one atom at a time to create the lattice that holds your face together.

And as it turns out, if they grow in the presence of fluoride, SSS causes the inclusion of the different SIZE of the fluoride CATION to changes the shape of the crystalline lattice, and this changes the physical properties of the crystalline tooth.

And as it happens, fluoride makes the lattice stronger, harder, more damage resistant, slower to dissolve in an acid solutions. This was found via standard experimental materials properties tests.

This has been known about all you life, GEORGE.

These crystalline teeth grow in CHILDREN, but the paper in your bullshit post specifically states:

"... The scientists also found “insufficient evidence” that fluoridation reduces tooth decay in adults (children excluded). ..."

=================================================================

CHILDREN EXCLUDED   CHILDREN EXCLUDED   CHILDREN EXCLUDED   CHILDREN EXCLUDED 

===========================================================  

 

So the very group that were getting the advantage of fluoride SSS of their teeth lattices, were the same group excluded from the study. Gee! I wonder why they did that? Could it be because they were measuring cavities? And the children had none?

 

Well here's your homework and readings GEORGES:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_solution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_structure#Defects_and_impurities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_solution_strengthening
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strengthening_mechanisms_of_materials

___________________________________________________________________________

First, a major geochemistry of teeth paper published just 2 years ago:

 

Quantitative Determination of Lattice Fluoride Effects on the Solubility and Crystallinity of Carbonated Apatites with Incorporated Fluoride

Guang Yan,a,* Kunikazu Moribe,b Makoto Otsuka,c Kongnara Papangkorn,d and William I. Higuchid

Jan 2014

 
 
Abstract
The purpose of this study was to evaluate quantitatively the effects of fluoride on the solubility and crystallinity of carbonated apatites (CAPs) after its incorporation into the crystal lattice using the metastable equilibrium solubility (MES) distribution method. Fluoride incorporated CAPs (F-CAPs) of two different carbonate levels (3% and 5%) and fluoride contents from 0 to 20,000 ?g/g were synthesized. X-ray diffraction experiments and Rietveld analysis were conducted to obtain crystallite microstrain and unit cell parameters. Acetate buffer MES solution media were prepared at two solution fluoride concentrations (0.2 mg/L and 2.0 mg/L) and at two pHs (5.0 and 5.7). The unit cell a-axis values of the F-CAPs were found to decrease as the fluoride content increased; consistent with the fluoride being incorporated into the crystal lattice. The fluoride concentrations in the MES solution media were high enough to provide a “swamping” effect such that the fluoride released from the F-CAPs during dissolution was minimal in changing the solution fluoride concentration. Employing the MES distribution superposition method, it was shown that the surface complex possessing the fluorapatite (FAP) stoichiometry (Ca10(PO4)6F2) accounted for the MES distribution behavior of all experiments. In addition, the mean pIFAP [the value of ?log(aca 10PO46aF2) calculated from ionic activity product based on FAP stoichiometry of the MES dissolution media in which 50% of the F-CAP had dissolved] correlated well with the crystallite microstrain parameters of the F-CAPs. The incorporated fluoride in the F-CAPs showed only modest effects on F-CAP crystallinity and solubility.

Keywords: Fluoride, Lattice, Solubility, Crystallinity, Caries, Dental Mineral

Introduction

In 1942, Dean et al. [1942] demonstrated that there was an inverse relationship between the fluoride level in drinking water and the incidence of dental caries. Since then, the fluoride effect in the prevention of dental caries has been intensively investigated and two mechanisms for the fluoride cariostatic effect have been proposed: a lattice fluoride effect and a solution fluoride effect. In the case of the lattice fluoride effect, fluoride incorporated into tooth mineral crystals during tooth development is believed to form tooth mineral with higher crystallinity and lower solubility, such as fluorapatite (FAP) [Glenn et al. 1982; LeGeros et al. 1985; McKay 1952]. In the case of the solution fluoride effect, fluoride in the solution environment, such as saliva, would inhibit the dissolution of tooth mineral [Wong et al. 1987]. Studies have shown that dental mineral dissolution rates are significantly reduced in acidic solutions with low levels of fluoride present [Margolis et al. 1986; Takagi et al. 2000] and solution fluoride of 0.1 to 2 mg/L may accelerate the seeded crystal growth of fluoridated hydroxyapatite [Varughese and Moreno 1981]. Although it is controversial with regard to which effect is more important in the prevention of dental caries [DePaola 1991; Glenn 2000; Widenheim et al. 1986], more researchers tend to believe that the solution fluoride effect is the more important effect [Featherstone 2000; Rosin-Grget and Lincir 2001; Thylstrup 1990]. This could be due to multiple studies of the lattice fluoride effect on the crystallinity and the solubility of fluoride incorporated apatites, showing that there was no clear correlation between fluoride substitution level and apatite crystallinity and also no correlation between crystallinity and the dissolution tendency of those apatites [Driessens 1973; Moreno et al. 1974; Moreno et al. 1977; Okazaki et al. 1981; Okazaki et al. 1982]. However, there is a lack of research that provides a direct comparison between the lattice fluoride effect and the solution fluoride effect.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3694435/

READ IT IF YOU DOUBT IT
___________________________________________________________

Another major geochemical study from 45 years ago:

THE KINETICS AND MECHANISMS OF REACTIONS OF HUMAN TOOTH ENAMEL IN BUFFERED SOLUTIONS OF HIGH FLUORIDE CONCENTRATIONS
W. I. Higuchi. S. C. Valvani and J. J. HefIerren  1974
http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/22291/0000731.pdf...

________________________________________________________________________

Another major Geochemistry study from 1935 that broke new ground for the first time in understanding the detailed chemistry of human teeth. In about 1942 the link with Fluoride was finally published (it is reference in the first paragraph of the 2014 paper above in fact)

 

THE CHEMICAL COMPOSITION OF TEETH.
II. THE COMPOSITION OF HUMAN ENAMEL AND DENTINE.
BY JOANE HYLTON BOWES AND MARGARET MARY MURRAY.
From the Department of Physiology, Bedford College, University of London. 1936 (Received October 28th, 1935.)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1263132/pdf/biochemj01060-00...

________________________________________________________________________

And finally a little sic-pop magazine called nature, from 2004:

 

NATURE

Published online 22 January 2004 | Nature | doi:10.1038/news040119-8

How fluoride firms up teeth

Computer models show that fluoride locks calcium into your pearly whites.

"... Dentists have long known that a dose of fluoride helps to protect teeth against this eroding action, but they didn't know exactly why. "We knew that fluoride is taken up into the tooth," says crystallographer Nora de Leeuw from Birkbeck College, London. "But there was no proof of where it was actually going."

So de Leeuw used a computer simulation to study how far fluoride burrows into tooth enamel. She found that the fluoride sticks firmly to several calcium ions near the surface of the tooth, anchoring them together and cutting down the rate at which the tooth is worn away. ..."

http://www.nature.com/news/2004/040122/full/news040119-8.html
 
________________________________________________________________________

 

Is that enough scienciness for you today, GEORGES?

I'll let you get back to your NewsWeek reading.

But seriously, haven't you got something better to do than spread nutty crap all over the web?

gregga777's picture

Why should I believe you and your scientific citations? The United States of America is the most corrupt country on Planet Earth and that corruption extends to the scientific establishment. Anthropogenic Global Warming and Chlorofluorocarbon-caused Ozone Hole are just two out of many examples of massive establishment scientific fraud and corruption. It is true that the real motive behind fluoridation of public water supplies was to provide legal cover for the unconscionable and massive pollution of groundwater with fluorine and other toxins from production of U-235 using Uranium Tetrafluoride/Hexafluoride gases. I can't think of the names of any trustworthy scientists. Why should I believe you?

Element's picture

 

 

"Why should I believe you and your scientific citations?"

 

Empirical physical experimental observations are not belief based, they occur, they are repeatable, thus verifiable. They have been repeated, and they have been verified, multiple times over decades.

We know it is the physical material case that very low concentrations of fluoride do make teeth crystalline structures more resistant to acid attack, and it is acidity of the mouth that eats teeth.

Compared to that, I could give a damn what you believe?

No.

"... massive pollution of groundwater with fluorine ..."

Ground waters all over this planet have had high fluoride levels in them for about 4 billion years. It has nothing to do with humans, it is naturally occurring via weathering of primarily plutonic rock hydrothermal networks with high fluorine mineralogies. But if you had done what I'd suggested above, and put "fluoride in ground water" into a search engine, you'd know that already, you stupid bastard. 

Unbelievable!  :D

RichardParker's picture

So basicly, the ion exchange process that produces the putative benefits of enamel flourination are similiar, but not identical to the toughening of gorilla Glass by ion exchange?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorilla_Glass

 

 

Element's picture

SSS is a process that occurs in crystalline substances.

Actual glass is not crystalline, it's a very vicous liquid. It's 'runny', only over very long timescales.

It can devitrify into silicate, usually via hydration into crystals, and it does that naturally over time, but is speed up drastically if heated in the presence of water under pressure. When crystals form it become brittle.

The rate at which it degrades that way is related to the impurities (other liquid phase atoms included within it), but it is mostly silica, but may be doped for strength. Silicate crystal growth require impurities to act as the node cations with in the tetrahedral crystal form they take.

The Gorilla glass is not a true glass, it is a dopes silicate that has crystals in it that grew in a structure that is stronger than glass itself. In that sense yes, that is substitution solid solution. The substitution part is where you take a few cation atoms out of the node locations and replace them with a cation that actually strengthens the structure.

Gorilla glass is an aluminosilicate, a silica glass melt that was doped with the required exact proportions of aluminum (at an extremely low concentration) and cooled in such a way, (temp, pressure and time) that the crystals that grew made it much stronger rather than weaker, but still crystalline-phase, and still looks transparent like a true liquid-phase glass.

resaci's picture

Fuckin fluoride spewing tooth fairies, you can take the fluoride in my water and stick it up your ass. You come off as one arrogant SOB. It’s scientific reality that if government sticks an 8’ pole up your ass till it comes out your mouth it will STOP ALL CAVITIES. That don’t mean I want them to do it… 

Miffed Microbiologist's picture

My and my husbands parents were fully on board the fluoride bandwagon. We got all the treatments available and dutifully brushed regularly with fluoride toothpaste. Both of us got plenty of cavities, especially Mr who's mouth was a mass of mercury. I honestly believe this was contributory to his Hashimoto's and myastesia gravis which is taking quite a toll in his life.

We decided not to allow any fluoride treatment for our children. No fluoride toothpaste and they have only drunk well water which has tested extremely low for fluoride. My eldest at 26 has had not one cavity, my youngest has had one very small one. Coming from parents with families having lots of dental problems I can't claim genetics is involved in this.

Yes, I admit this is completely anecdotal but I think you should question science when there are outliers. There is where you find some fascinating answers to questions. A Salk Researcher and dear friend always told me to focus on the outliers to challenge any hypothesis you hold dear. Let them kill it if necessary and be glad to see truth.

Miffed;-)

Element's picture

It is acid that eats teeth miffed, if you consume a lot of sugars and have acidic saliva you will get cavities - even if your teeth have been strengthened by fluoride inclusion during growth.

It makes them acid resistant, is does not and can not make them acid proof.

The first paper above is unequivocal on an observational experimental basis (as are several others), that the teeth with enhanced fluoride inclusions in them are more resistant to acid digestion of teeth.

Like I said, people have no sense of proportion.

It's all on : off 'digital' conclusion making, and psychobabble hysteresis that follows, with the contribution of dingbat assertions that run counter to the experimental observation that fluoride cation inclusions in teeth makes them stronger.

So no, I won't be questioning the science, the science has been questioned, science is always questioned, and it has be re-tested multiple times via multiple approaches, and confirmed numerous times.

The only thing some people are still questioning is which of the two strengthening mechanisms of fluoride inclusion in teeth, is the most dominant and the most important to cavity rate reduction.

 

Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Then if what you say is true, why not focus on acid reduction rather than purported fortification? You use words as " strengthening" and " resistant" so it seems we are fighting a losing battle in such a scenario. Should we not build houses on sand and waste our energies on trying to keep them upright? Aboriginal populations have far less dental caries then modern societies. Maybe we should learn from them rather than try to fight nature.

The acids of which you speak are from various species of bacteria. A proper diet will keep your mouth flora in proper balance and dental caries less likely. Plus this reduces the chances of endocarditis. Poor dental health is a harbinger of heart disease studies show.

But what am I saying? Most of my work is from patients who shoot themselves up with insulin so they can eat a jelly donut. I make my living by the foolishness of others. ;-)

Miffed;-)

Element's picture

Miffed, I thought you were a microbiologist, a trained scientist? Are you really suggesting I stop sticking to the experimental facts and take a position unrelated to them, about an entirely different topic, which is the job of dentists and oral health pros, when some reprehensible skunk (yes, George I mean you) is claiming the facts are irrelevant, or don't exist, and doesn't care? That physical hard scientific facts (not models, not theories) do not matter? Or should be ignored in favor of opinions of internet gibbering rabble?

You disappoint me .. just a little bit ... nothing too serious.

But I suggest you look at you own position with respect to physical experimental evidence and decide if you think experimental confirmation is relevant to you.

logicalman's picture

All of the above may be correct, but why add it to drinking water?

Topical application (toothpaste) is one thing, adding it to the water supply is a whole diffrerent ball game.

I notice you didn't post any information on what fluoride does to the rest of the human organism, BTW.

 

Element's picture

dude I was kinda busy refuting (with published scientific papers) a massive screed of bullshit posted by Georges.

I'm not a doctor LM, I'm a geo, and I know mineral crystals, chemicals, stuff like that. Most of the fluoride health effects come from drinking ground water, not from the paltry amount in drinking water. For goodness sake chemicals are put into table salt to make sure nobody has a deficiency in critical minerals for basic metabolic heath.

Like I said, put "fluoridated groundwater" into a search engine and have a look, it's everywhere, we evolved with it, human teeth and bones have always had it, to some degree depending on where they live eat and drink. It is found in human skulls and teeth found in caves that are thousands of years old.

People crap on about stupid stuff lie this but every god damn thing you eat is chockablock full of artifical and natural chemicals!  A TRILLION-SQUILLION-GAZILLION of them ... every meal!

Just get out 10 bought items in your food store, right now, and have a look at what's in the contents part of the label.

And people want to carry on about almost no fluoride in the water!!   hahaha! ... eeeiiidiots!!!

It's ridiculous LM, childish, mental even! People have no idea of anything, let alone proportions, and some eeeeideot craps on about fluoride in water, and next thing they're having a mental meltdown about not wanting chemicals in them!!?  ahahahahahahhhaaaaa!  Fluoride is actually an atom! Whether you drink tap water or not, your body is still loaded with fluoride atoms. Every time you walk on dirt you are walking on fluoride minerals, breathing it in as dust. Get your snot tested for fluoride atoms! They'll be there.

 

This is so fucked up. 

logicalman's picture

Fluorides are compounds.

Flourine is the atom - never hangs about for long in its pure form, however.

I do agree that a sense of proportion is important. That's why I rarely eat packaged stuff.

I just don't see why anyone would want to ADD fluorides to the water supply and so far you have not come up with anything in favour.

No point getting in a flap about something unavoidable, background radiation for example, but no point adding to the problem - short of ulterior motives that is.

 

Element's picture

 

 

"I just don't see why anyone would want to ADD fluorides to the water supply and so far you have not come up with anything in favour."

I had zero intent of doing so, but you are still wildly wrong anyway, the experimental results in the papers given above show the positive experimental strengthening and acid resistance effect of adding the CATION to the crystalline LATTICE of growing teeth, and ALSO a surface treatment of a fluoride laced fluid (it is in fact the atom fluorine that's added to the lattice structure, not the molecule fluoride its delivered via).

ADDING fluoride has UNAMBIGUOUSLY been EXPERIMENTALLY established to make teeth stronger, and more resistant to acid attack.

It is not my job to make any assertions, I am only showing what the actual science results on the topic reflect, that are freely available via a search engine, and doing so to counter the abject false bullcrap being spread about in concerted effort by GEORGES, and swallowed down unquestioningly, and even defended, by many unabridged IDIOTS in here.

You call yourself a 'logical man'? If you were, you would have figured this out already.

jomama's picture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_toxicity

No one is debating that it naturally occurs. What's being discussed is how toxic levels are harmful. Considering there is very little evidence that adding it to water prevents tooth decay, there doesn't seem to be any valid argument that supports adding more sodium flouride to drinking water.

Yes, it binds to enamel and prevents erosion. So what? The risks far outweight the benefits. Brush and floss after every meal to keep your teeth healthy while not ingesting a known poison! This isn't complicated.

Element's picture

 

 

RUBBISH!

YOU ... get that?  YOU are now trying to conflate it into a discussion about toxicity, when the actual topic is the assertion by Georges, that there is no positive effect on teeth from small inclusions of fluoride in drinking water.

A whole different topic.

"there doesn't seem to be any valid argument that supports adding more sodium fluoride to drinking water."

What the hell does that have to do with the topic?

Where did is suggest such a thing???

"... while not ingesting a known poison" 

Every thing you eat will kill you and be 'toxic' if you eat enough of it.

But I don't think you're too worried about drinking the chemical alcohol to excess, even though it literally could kill you from a single binge, or brain and internal organs atrophy from chronic drinking.

Can't stick to the topic?

Charming Anarchist's picture

You have to be a special type of stupid to trust a government technician to be dumping "safe" amounts in the water.

The science is irrelevent.

Element's picture

A moron with the name 'charmin anarchist', rejects science and professional scientists, who are the same cohort who developed all of the technology which said anarchistic dope uses to type his idiotic bullcrap comment with, and which keeps the dreary sod in the modern world, as opposed to pre-1800s living conditions, and a much shorter life span.

But the dope will no doubt eat a half dozen things today, that will actually kill a human, over time, and shorten that life span.

And it already knows it, but does it any way, because he doesn't actually care about that stuff, when you get right down to it.

 

[I take it all back cog, cognitive dissonance wins! lol]

Turin Turambar's picture

^^  BFD!  I'm not interested in being medicated against my will.  Keep your chemicals and crap to yourself and self-medicate yourself if you want.  Leave me the hell alone.

Element's picture

dude everything you ever ate in you entire life was a chemical.

You are nothing but chemicals, fruitcake.

And put this is a search engine, press enter:  "Fluoride in water and groundwater"

Fluoride is a natural atom and everywhere to some degree. 

"Among the elements, fluorine ranks 24th in universal abundance and 13th in terrestrial abundance."

Fluorite is a rock mineral, have a look:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Fluorite-27024...

Fluoroapatite:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Apatite_Canada...

 

Ignorance is your harbor from the storm of fear you've created for yourself.

jomama's picture

Sodium Flouride is used as rat and roach poison. Somehow you think that the abundance means it's safe??!

 

If you're implying that people should never brush their teeth or floss (the true reason for overall improvement of societal oral health), but instead coat their teeth with Sodium Flouride because it's 'safe' and effective - you need to take a long, hard look in the mirror - if you still have the self awareness to do so.

Element's picture

Hey what don't you get?

Georges posted a massive load of crap claiming there was no detectable effect from flouride upon teeth, and I posted actual scintific papers that show he's completely wrong.

That's what I did.

Anything else is the noise in your own brain.