The Endless Dodge - Why Washington Doesn't Come Clean On The Downing Of MH-17

Tyler Durden's picture

Submitted by Roberty Parry via ConsortiumNews.com (h/t Contra Corner blog),

A newly posted video showing a glimpse of a Buk missile battery rolling down a highway in eastern Ukraine has sparked a flurry of renewed accusations blaming Russia for the July 17, 2014 shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 killing 298 people. But the “dash-cam video” actually adds little to the MH-17 whodunit mystery because it could also support a narrative blaming the Ukrainian military for the disaster.

The fleeting image of the missile battery and its accompanying vehicles, presumably containing an armed escort, seems to have been taken by a car heading west on H-21 highway in the town of Makiivka, as the convoy passed by heading east, according to the private intelligence firm Stratfor and the “citizen journalism” Web site, Bellingcat.

A screenshot of the buk convoy that supposedly downed flight MH-17 traveling eastward from Donetsk on the morning of July 17, 2016.

However, even assuming that this Buk battery was the one that fired the missile that destroyed MH-17, its location in the video is to the west of both the site where Almaz-Antey, the Russian Buk manufacturer, calculated the missile was fired, around the village of Zaroshchenskoye (then under Ukrainian government control), and the 320-square-kilometer zone where the Dutch Safety Board speculated the fateful rocket originated (covering an area of mixed government and rebel control).

In other words, the question would be where the battery stopped before firing one of its missiles, assuming that this Buk system was the one that fired the missile. (The map below shows the location of Makiivka in red, Almaz-Antey’s suspected launch site in yellow, and the general vicinity of the Dutch Safety Board’s 320-square-kilometer launch zone in green.)

 

Another curious aspect of this and the other eight or so Internet images of Buk missiles collected by Bellingcat and supposedly showing a Buk battery rumbling around Ukraine on or about July 17, 2014, is that they are all headed east toward Russia, yet there have been no images of Buks heading west from Russia into Ukraine, a logical necessity if the Russians gave a Buk system to ethnic Russian rebels or dispatched one of their own Buk military units directly into Ukraine, suspicions that Russia and the rebels have denied.

The absence of a westward-traveling Buk battery fits with the assessment from Western intelligence agencies that the several operational Buk systems in eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014, were under the control of the Ukrainian military, a disclosure contained in a Dutch intelligence report released last October and implicitly confirmed by an earlier U.S. “Government Assessment” that listed weapons systems that Russia had given the rebels but didn’t mention a Buk battery.

The Netherlands’ Military Intelligence and Security Service (MIVD) reported that the only anti-aircraft weapons in eastern Ukraine capable of bringing down MH-17 at 33,000 feet on July 17 belonged to the Ukrainian government. MIVD made that assessment in the context of explaining why commercial aircraft continued to fly over the eastern Ukrainian battle zone in summer 2014.

MIVD said that based on “state secret” information, it was known that Ukraine possessed some older but “powerful anti-aircraft systems” capable of downing a plane at that altitude and “a number of these systems were located in the eastern part of the country,” whereas the MIVD said the ethnic Russian rebels had only MANPADS that could not reach the higher altitudes.

Ukrainian Offensive

On July 17, the Ukrainian military also was mounting a strong offensive against rebel positions to the north and thus the front lines were shifting rapidly, making it hard to know exactly where the borders of government and rebel control were. To the south, where the Buk missile was believed fired, the battle lines were lightly manned and hazy – because of the concentration of forces to the north – meaning that an armed Buk convoy could probably move somewhat freely.

A photograph of a Russian BUK missile system that U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt published on Twitter in support of a claim about Russia placing BUK missiles in eastern Ukraine, except that the image appears to be an AP photo taken at an air show near Moscow two years ago.

Also, because of the offensive, the Ukrainian government feared a full-scale Russian invasion to prevent the annihilation of the rebels, explaining why Kiev was dispatching its Buk systems toward the Russian border, to defend against potential Russian air strikes.

Just a day earlier, a Ukrainian fighter flying along the border was shot down by an air-to-air missile (presumably fired by a Russian warplane), according to last October’s Dutch Safety Board report. So, tensions were high on July 17, 2014, when MH-17, flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, broke apart over eastern Ukraine, believed downed by a surface-to-air missile although there have been other suggestions that the plane might  have been hit by an air-to-air missile.

At the time, Ukraine also was the epicenter of an “information war” that had followed a U.S.-backed coup on Feb. 22, 2014, which ousted democratically elected President Viktor Yanukovych and replaced the Russian-friendly leader with a fiercely nationalistic and anti-Russian regime in Kiev. The violent coup, in turn, prompted Crimea to vote 96 percent in a hasty referendum to secede from Ukraine and rejoin Russia. Eastern Ukraine and its large ethnic Russian population also revolted against the new authorities.

The U.S. government and much of the Western media, however, denied there had been a coup in Kiev, hailed the new regime as “legitimate,” and deemed Crimea’s secession a “Russian invasion.” The West also denounced the eastern Ukrainian resistance as “Russian aggression.” So, the propaganda war was almost as hot as the military fighting, a factor that has further distorted the pursuit of truth about the MH-17 tragedy.

Immediately after the MH-17 crash, the U.S. government sought to pin the blame on Russia as part of a propaganda drive to convince the European Union to join in imposing economic sanctions on Russia for its “annexation” of Crimea and its support of eastern Ukrainians resisting the Kiev regime.

However, a source briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts told me that the analysts could find no evidence that the Russians had supplied the rebels with a sophisticated Buk system or that the Russians had introduced a Buk battery under their own command. The source said the initial intelligence suggested that an undisciplined Ukrainian military team was responsible.

Yet, on July 20, 2014, just three days after the tragedy, Secretary of State John Kerry appeared on all Sunday morning talk shows and blamed the Russian-backed rebels and implicitly Moscow. He cited some “social media” comments and – on NBC’s “Meet the Press” – added: “We picked up the imagery of this launch. We know the trajectory. We know where it came from. We know the timing. And it was exactly at the time that this aircraft disappeared from the radar.”

Two days later, on July 22, the Obama administration released a “Government Assessment” that tried to bolster Kerry’s accusations, in part, by listing the various weapons systems that U.S. intelligence believed Russia had provided the rebels, but a Buk battery was not among them. At background briefings for selected mainstream media reporters, U.S. intelligence analysts struggled to back up the administration’s case against Russia.

For instance, the analysts suggested to a Los Angeles Times reporter that Ukrainian government soldiers manning the suspected Buk battery may have switched to the rebel side before firing the missile. The Times wrote: “U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [Buk anti-aircraft missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.”

However, after that July 22 briefing — as U.S. intelligence analysts continued to pore over satellite imagery, telephonic intercepts and other data to refine their understanding of the tragedy — the U.S. government went curiously silent, refusing to make any updates or adjustments to its initial rush to judgment, a silence that has continued ever since.

Staying Silent

Meanwhile, the source who continued receiving briefings from the U.S. intelligence analysts told me that the reason for going quiet was that the more detailed evidence pointed toward a rogue element of the Ukrainian military connected to a hardline Ukrainian oligarch, with the possible motive the shooting down of President Vladimir Putin’s plane returning from a state visit to South America.

In that scenario, a Ukrainian fighter jet in the vicinity (as reported by several eyewitnesses on the ground) was there primarily as a spotter, seeking to identify the target. But Putin’s plane, with similar markings to MH-17, took a more northerly route and landed safely in Moscow.

A side-by-side comparison of the Russian presidential jetliner and the Malaysia Airlines plane.

Though I was unable to determine whether the source’s analysts represented a dissenting or consensus opinion inside the U.S. intelligence community, some of the now public evidence could fit with that narrative, including why the suspected Buk system was pushing eastward as close to or even into “rebel” territory on July 17.

If Putin was the target, the attackers would need to spread immediate confusion about who was responsible to avoid massive retaliation by Moscow. A perfect cover story would be that Putin’s plane was shot down accidentally by his ethnic Russian allies or even his own troops, the ultimate case of being hoisted on his own petard.

Such a risky operation also would prepare disinformation for release after the attack to create more of a smokescreen and to gain control of the narrative, including planting material on the Internet to be disseminated by friendly or credulous media outlets.

The Ukrainian government has denied having a fighter jet in the air at the time of the MH-17 shoot-down and has denied that any of its Buk or other anti-aircraft systems were involved.

Yet, whatever the truth, U.S. intelligence clearly knows a great deal more than it has been willing to share with the public or even with the Dutch-led investigations. Last October, more than a year after the shoot-down, the Dutch Safety Board was unable to say who was responsible and could only approximate the location of the missile firing inside a 320-square-kilometer area, whereas Kerry had claimed three days after the crash that the U.S. government knew the launch point.

Earlier this year, Fred Westerbeke, the chief prosecutor of the Dutch-led Joint Investigative Team [JIT], provided a partial update to the Dutch family members of MH-17 victims, explaining that he hoped to have a more precise fix on the firing site by the second half of 2016, i.e., possibly more than two years after the tragedy.

Westerbeke’s letter acknowledged that the investigators lacked “primary raw radar images” which could have revealed a missile or a military aircraft in the vicinity of MH-17. That apparently was because Ukrainian authorities had shut down their primary radar facilities supposedly for maintenance, leaving only secondary radar which would show commercial aircraft but not military planes or rockets.

Russian officials have said their radar data suggest that a Ukrainian warplane might have fired on MH-17 with an air-to-air missile, a possibility that is difficult to rule out without examining primary radar which has so far not been available. Primary radar data also might have picked up a ground-fired missile, Westerbeke wrote.

“Raw primary radar data could provide information on the rocket trajectory,” Westerbeke wrote. “The JIT does not have that information yet. JIT has questioned a member of the Ukrainian air traffic control and a Ukrainian radar specialist. They explained why no primary radar images were saved in Ukraine.” Westerbeke said investigators are also asking Russia about its data.

Westerbeke added that the JIT had “no video or film of the launch or the trajectory of the rocket.” Nor, he said, do the investigators have satellite photos of the rocket launch.

“The clouds on the part of the day of the downing of MH17 prevented usable pictures of the launch site from being available,” he wrote. “There are pictures from just before and just after July 17th and they are an asset in the investigation.”

Though Westerbeke provided no details, the Russian military released a number of satellite images purporting to show Ukrainian government Buk missile systems north of the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk before the attack, including two batteries that purportedly were shifted 50 kilometers south of Donetsk on July 17, the day of the crash, and then removed by July 18.

Russian Lt. Gen. Andrey Kartopolov called on the Ukrainian government to explain the movements of its Buk systems and why Kiev’s Kupol-M19S18 radars, which coordinate the flight of Buk missiles, showed increased activity leading up to the July 17 shoot-down.

Necessary Secrets?

Part of the reason that the MH-17 mystery has remained unsolved is that the U.S. government  insists that its satellite surveillance, which includes infrared detection of heat sources as well as highly precise photographic imagery, remains a “state secret” that cannot be made public.

Secretary of State John Kerry denounces Russia's RT network as a "propaganda bullhorn" during remarks on April 24, 2014.

However, in similar past incidents, the U.S. government has declassified sensitive information. For instance, after a Soviet pilot accidentally shot down Korean Airlines Flight 007 over Russian territory in 1983, the Reagan administration revealed the U.S. capability to intercept Soviet ground-to-air military communications in order to make the Soviets look even worse by selectively editing the intercepts to present the destruction of the civilian aircraft as willful.

In that case, too, the U.S. government let its propaganda needs overwhelm any commitment to the truth, as Alvin A. Snyder, who in 1983 was director of the U.S. Information Agency’s television and film division, wrote in his 1995 book, Warriors of Disinformation.

After KAL-007 was shot down, “the Reagan administration’s spin machine began cranking up,” Snyder wrote. “The objective, quite simply, was to heap as much abuse on the Soviet Union as possible. … The American media swallowed the U.S. government line without reservation.”

On Sept. 6, 1983, the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript of the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council. “The perception we wanted to convey was that the Soviet Union had cold-bloodedly carried out a barbaric act,” Snyder wrote.

Only a decade later, when Snyder saw the complete transcripts — including the portions that the Reagan administration had excised — would he fully realize how many of the central elements of the U.S. presentation were lies.

Snyder concluded, “The moral of the story is that all governments, including our own, lie when it suits their purposes. The key is to lie first.” [For more details on the KAL-007 deception and the history of U.S. trickery, see Consortiumnews.com’s “A Dodgy Dossier on Syrian War.”]

Quinn Schansman, a dual U.S.-Dutch citizen killed aboard Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 on July 17, 2014. (Photo from Facebook)

In the MH-17 case, the Obama administration let Kerry present the rush to judgment fingering the Russians and the rebels but then kept all the evidence secret even though the U.S. government’s satellite capabilities are well-known. By refusing to declassify any information for the MH-17 investigation, Washington has succeeded in maintaining the widespread impression that Moscow was responsible for the tragedy without having to prove it.

The source who was briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts told me that the Obama administration considered “coming clean” about the MH-17 case in March, when Thomas Schansman, the Dutch father of the only American victim, was pleading for the U.S. government’s cooperation, but administration officials ultimately decided to keep quiet because to do otherwise would have “reversed the narrative.”

A screen shot of the roadway where the suspected BUK missile battery supposedly passed after the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 on July 17, 2014. (Image from Australian “60 Minutes” program)

In the meantime, outfits such as Bellingcat have been free to reinforce the impression of Russian guilt, even as some of those claims have proved false. For instance, Bellingcat directed a news crew from Australia’s “60 Minutes” to a location outside Luhansk (near the Russian border) that the group had identified as the site for the “getaway video” showing a Buk battery with one missile missing.

The “60 Minutes” crew went to the spot and pretended to be at the place shown in the video, but none of the landmarks matched up, which became obvious when screen grabs of the video were placed next to the scene of the Australian crew’s stand-upper. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Fake Evidence Blaming Russia for MH-17.”]

Correspondent Michael Usher of Australia’s “60 Minutes” claims to have found the billboard visible in a video of a BUK missile launcher after the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 on July 17, 2014. (Screen shot from Australia’s “60 Minutes”)

Yet, reflecting the deep-seated mainstream media bias on the MH-17 case, the Australian program reacted angrily to my pointing out the obvious discrepancies. In a follow-up, the show denounced me but could only cite a utility pole in its footage that looked similar to a utility pole in the video.

While it’s true that utility poles tend to look alike, in this case none of the surroundings did, including the placement of the foliage and a house shown in the video that isn’t present in the Australian program’s shot. [For details, see Consortiumnews.com’s “A Reckless Stand-upper on MH-17.”]

But the impact of the nearly two years of one-sided coverage of the MH-17 case in the mainstream Western media has been considerable. In the last few days, a lawyer for the families of Australian victims announced the filing of a lawsuit against Russia and Putin in the European court for human rights seeking compensation of $10 million per passenger. Many of the West’s news articles on the lawsuit assume Russia’s guilt.

In other words, whatever the truth about the MH-17 shoot-down, the tragedy has proven to be worth its weight in propaganda gold against Russia and Putin, even as the U.S. government hides the actual proof that might show exactly who was responsible.

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The Saint's picture
The Saint (not verified) May 30, 2016 10:35 PM

Russia is still trying to deny shooting down this airliner?  What a joke.  It has been shown with out a doubt that Putin is responsible.  Get a fricking life and realize this is PUTIN's fault.  NO ONE ELSES BUT HIS.

adeptish's picture

Evidence of your claim please wanker.

Dead Canary's picture

Yea. Put your money where you big mouth is.

Restorative_Ally's picture

Wasn't this the same plane that "disappeared" over the ocean? I knew some kind of false flag was going to happen when it went "missing."

nope-1004's picture

Not the exact same plane, but the same airline company.  That's because the Malaysian government months before passed a law holding Israel accountable for crimes against humanity based on the evidence they had.  Obviously, Malaysia airlines was targeted by the same Bush (clan) of downing airliners with their (invoke fear) fetishes these boys have, ie WTC's.

 

John Kerry is a habitual liar.  Obama is too.  Bush, Clinton, Powell, Cheney, Rubin.... they all are.

I don't need to do my own research of the facts because there is an overwhelming amount of historical evidence and track record of ongoing lies by those same liars (named above) claiming the evil Russians did it.

I either believe a group of chronic liars, or someone whom I haven't met.  Seems to me the choice is simple.  I don't care about borders or lines on a map, ethnicity, race, religion, or gender.

SoilMyselfRotten's picture

There are times when having only 1 down arrow to cast feels inadequate

Billy the Poet's picture

Gives you a small taste of how it must feel to live in Gaza.

Implied Violins's picture

I haven't seen this mentioned, but a member of the World Health Organization, Glenn Thomas, and several internationally prominent microbiologists were on that plane when it went down.

Why is this important? Because Thomas had been in Sierra Leone, at Kenema National Labs, during the Ebola 'outbreak'...and he had seen that it was a complete and TOTAL fabrication - and was ready to reveal what he knew: that those labs had been involved in DELIBERATELY creating 'biological weapons of mass destruction'; and that lab had done so since the mid-1970's. That lab, incidentally, was shut down not long afterwards.

There's a HELL of a lot more there, but just digest that little bit first.

giovanni_f's picture

The US and Ukraine (ruled by the same corrupt political class) keep their information for themselves - but keep on claiming it were the Russians.

Makes sense.

philipat's picture

The real smoking gun here is the photographic evidence taken in the early stages after the shootdown and since ignored by the "investigation". These pictures clearly show perfectly round entry and exit holes on either side of the fuselage on both sides of the cockpit. These holes are consistent with the 30MM cannon standard on the SU-24 aircraft of the Ukrainian air force. Additional photographic evidence strongly suggests that MH017 may also have been hit by an AAM fired by a Ukrainian SU-24. The whole BUK saga is a complete smokescreen to divert attention away from the truth.

The US had extremely sophisticated satellite assets over this part of Ukraine and Kerry stated that there was indeed "evidence" to confirm the shoot down. So, how come this "evidence" has not been released? Unless, of course, it demonstrates a truth which is inconvenient to the US propoganda?

It is very sad that the Dutch and Australian Governments, whose nationals had the highest fatalities in this disaster, see it necessary to lie to their own people and lick Washington's ass.

How fucking evil have our Governments become? What a terrible world we live in.

EddieLomax's picture

It must have been a damn good pilot to get his SU-25 up above its service ceiling and somehow intercept a jet that cruises as fast as his top speed. 

The movie Hot shots looks more realistic than that ever happening.  I'm not actually anti-Russian, or anti-Putin, the country and the guy have their problems and their good spots, but the idea that they are somehow infallible and perfect is silly nonsense and they were not even directly running this screwup - the motley seperatists where.  In this case it looks extremely likely that the seperatists screwed up and MH-17 got hit when they thought they were hitting a Ukrainian airforce transport.

giovanni_f's picture

Nice try. All that you mention has been dealt with already.

SU-25 has no problems to accomplish this task. "Someone" even went so far as to change the Wikipedia-entry for this airplane so as to make it look like it was technically not feasible.

Separatists have and had no BUKS.

It was some faction of official Ukraine, accept it.

Latina Lover's picture

If the black box recordings and the pilots communications with the Ukrainian Air Traffic Control were released, we would have a much better idea as to what really happened. In fact, if the Black box and tower control comm. proved russias guilt, why doesn't the US and England release them?

Bendromeda Strain's picture

I remember the Spanish ATC who said the Ukrainian Security Service almost immediately saturated the tower and demanded cell phones from the controllers. They wanted a lid on it from the get go.

jeff montanye's picture

and lest we forget whose personal project the ukrainian putsch was, remember victoria nuland?  well her husband robert kagan, apparently disappointed in the growing republican weariness with endless war and particularly the anti-russian slant it has taken on recently, is increasing the, already quite substantial, neocon penetration of the democratic party. donald trump may also have given them pause (or it may all be a smokesreen).

but from the neocon house organ (the nyt):

 Consider the historian Robert Kagan, the author of a recent, roundly praised article in The New Republic that amounted to a neo-neocon manifesto. He has not only avoided the vitriolic tone that has afflicted some of his intellectual brethren but also co-founded an influential bipartisan advisory group during Mrs. Clinton’s time at the State Department.

Mr. Kagan has also been careful to avoid landing at standard-issue neocon think tanks like the American Enterprise Institute; instead, he’s a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, that citadel of liberalism headed by Strobe Talbott, who was deputy secretary of state under President Bill Clinton and is considered a strong candidate to become secretary of state in a new Democratic administration. (Mr. Talbott called the Kagan article “magisterial,” in what amounts to a public baptism into the liberal establishment.)

gonetogalt's picture

Re: Eddy Lomax...There is a little bullshit on both sides here. The 30mm holes in the cockpit sections were at nearly 90 degrees to the axis of the airplane and closely spaced. I suspect the panels were shot up after being recovered from the crash debris. I don't think any pilot could hold a target at that tightness a pattern, plus the shots seem to come from both sides of the AC. I suspect the SU 25 fired a missile or missiles in an assination attempt on Pres Putin. I suspect a local commander of Dombass militia decided to doctor the evidence to make the air to air attack incontrovertable. I suspect the Presidental plane used some electronic trickery to make the Malasia plane a decoy and Ukies took the bait.

But what do I know?

7againstThebes's picture

 "EddieLomax"

    If you are going to write BS propaganda, you might actually learn how to spell common English words.  

 

Volkodav's picture

That aircraft has been flown far above stated service ceiling.

RuAF friend says been reached above 50,000

                     Also, no proof it was SU25, possible SU27 with identity spoofed

 

 

 

 

JohninMK's picture

The US intelligence assets in the area also happened to contain US Navy ships and aircraft operating off the Ukrainian coast as part of a NATO exercise that finished the day before. AFAIK one of them was an AEGIS destroyer who's long range radar would have given the crew and the Pentagon a ringside view on events.

Given what was happening on land and the possibility of Russian support for the separatists they were in no hurry to go home and would have been carefully watching events. They would have seen an Ukrainian Il-86 transport plane, believed to have been carrying special forces, shot down by a MANPAD a couple of days earlier. This would have increased the pressure for revenge on the part of Ukrainian air defences.

Unlike modern systems, including newer BUKs, the BUK system operated by the Ukrainians was old and probably clapped out like much of Ukrainian military gear, with very basic information provided to the operators requiring a lot of skill to operate. This was either a well planned air to air operation or an accident caused by an angry BUK team. One day we will know.

Bendromeda Strain's picture

Uh oh - having the Navy in the area only reinforces the whitewash, as anyone who has seen Tom Stalcup's expose on TWA 800's missile downing off of Long Island knows.

Ace006's picture

In an imperfect world I nonetheless still do not ascribe to the proposition that fighter pilots are immoral robots who'd shoot down an airliner. "How'd your day go, Honey? Great! I was ordered to shoot down an airliner and that was quite a rush to see that baby spiral in. Sure will look good in my service records."

Somebody made a huge mistake and it apparently suits US purposes to conceal who made it. Does it have to get more complicated than that?

Amicus Curiae's picture

add to that the in progress TEKMIRA canadian and ussa mil funded with gm based Ebola vax reached stage two and suddenly got canned

right at the time the first cases nearby occurred.

someone got the vax and got the odd variant Ebola from it.

rather similar to the texas based lab using the new flu vax with exact same strains that turned into the swine flu non epidemic

they were in trial and probably using the poor people from the nearby mexican areas as recipients.

Sanctuary2's picture

Clinton wants to invade Russia-i dont blame Putin for preparing

Nexus789's picture

Given totally degenerate nature of our piss poor leaders I'm impressed that we are all still alive. For the moment anyway.

golden kafir's picture

another strange aspect of this was the reports that the rebels made that the bodies in the wreckage appeared to have already been dead awhile. If that were true it would mean the whole event was scripted so to speak.

opport.knocks's picture

Two Malaysian planes, MH-370 and MH-17, were lost or shot down a short time after the Malaysia created a parallel War Crimes Commission to try Bush, Blair, Cheny, etc., since the Hague was doing absolutely nothing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_Lumpur_War_Crimes_Commission

Co-incidence? Maybe, Maybe not 

gougeonit's picture

The one question you have to ask your self in cases such as this is who profits from this. 
 
Knowledge is truth, and truth is power.

https://hectorreban.wordpress.com/2015/06/18/did-the-ukrainians-shoot-do...


Shemp 4 Victory's picture

 

Yea. Put your money where you big mouth is.

Being a troll in the employ of the State Department, the money which The Saint has to put anywhere is, at best, loose change. It very well might consist of nothing more than a handful of potatoes.

eXMachina's picture

He doesn't need evidence. He has legitimate sauces!

iClaudius's picture

He found them in the dead and dying isle at Walmart.

giovanni_f's picture

If one has to rely on the output of trust-level-zero "organisations" such as "Bellingcat" aka "Moses Brown" aka Eliot Higgins or the one-man-show "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights" run by the ex-cafe-proprietor Rami Abdulrahman, one is fucked beyond repair. Western media-for-government ops such as Reuters, Bloomberg, German TV have no qualms with using this info-diarrhoea for their popaganda purposes. 

Volkodav's picture

no comment beyond both are terrible jokes...

HowdyDoody's picture

Bellingcat has achieved his intended purpose. He has gained a seat on the US propaganda gravy train. IAATM aka FTM.

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/about/experts/list/eliot-higgins

 

iClaudius's picture

"no comment beyond both are terrible jokes..."

;)

EddieLomax's picture

Why did the seperatists initially claim the shooting down on social media and then delete it quickly afterwards?

In the week previous to it a Ukrainian airforce plane was shot down at 20,000ft, the seperatists had the gear to do it then and the reason to do it, this whole scenario smells of a screwup.  The Ukrainian army on the other hand had no reason to fire any sams since everything in the air was theirs or neutral, the Russians did not deploy any of their airforce, although the embedded SAM stuff was waiting there just in case.

There are a lot of people who swallowed the SU-25 story, it was total bullshit from the start, if you put missiles on a 747 it would be a more capable air to air interceptor since it has a higher service ceiling and faster top speed then even the latest SU-25.  Yet there was that naff looking sat picture put out by the Kremlin of it.  The SU-25 models the Ukrainians had (older, and certainly not upgraded - the Ukrainian goverment is corrupt and badly maintains its army when it isn't selling assets off cut price to Georgia) were slower than a 747's cruising speed, and could not reach its alttitude.

MH17 was shot down by a large SAM, likely a BUK, and it was a giagantic screwup on the seperatists side, end of story, there is likely no more hidden information that is going to come out to further prove one side or another, but both sides had BUK's under their control, but only one side had a reason to use them.

7againstThebes's picture

"EddieLomax" again.

"...that naff looking sat picture...."

What the hell does that mean?

"EddieLomax" must work for the government. I'd fire him if I were his boss. But then, I doubt that his boss can do any better.  That's why they work for the government....

    They are all good at one thing, I admit:  lies.

 

Bendromeda Strain's picture

Magic bullet, end of story...

I like how you guys operate /s

JohninMK's picture

If it was that simple there would be no discussion here now.

The is some discussion that the conversation you mention was a crude Ukrainian secret services smear attempt, taken down because it was full of holes.

The separatists shot that Il-86 down with a Strela or Igla MANPAD which have a 10,000 ft maximum range, only a third of the height of MH-17.

The Russians had flown Su-30s over Ukraine and as the OP says the Ukrainians were very worried about RuAF attacking them and, as the Russians have said, had BUK batteries live all over the place until this event.

The Su-25 itself is perfectly capable of reaching 30,000 feet, the problem is that at that height the pilot needs oxygen which the SU-25, as a ground attack aircraft, does not need. Giving a pilot a temporary oxygen supply is a pretty straightforward task. The Su-25 has hardpoints that AAM fit onto and very good cannon.

The separatists and Russia had the least motivation of all to fire a missile at a plane at that height. Why bring the approbation of the world onto themselves for no military gain?

MH-17 was shot down by a missile is all we can say. Who fired it is open to question. There is no end of story, yet.

agNau's picture

Explain what Russia would gain by shooting down a plane of innocent people.
Please be detailed.

SoilMyselfRotten's picture

Cuz...Putin, anymore details will just bog you down

conscious being's picture

Are you the new MDB of world affairs? You are playing a very real caricature the anti-Putin troll. Welldone. I notice MDB does not need to use the /sarc tag either. Congradulations on your skillfull preformance.

HowdyDoody's picture

Precisely. He received an amazing number of downvotes for an obvious Ukrop-style troll post.

 

OldPhart's picture

No downvote, but this asshole has absolutely no skill.

He made a claim.

Here's mine:  Hillary and Bernie should be shot, multiple times, in the head (Gabbriel Giffords proved that politicians heads are denser than lead).

Here's another claim.  I found a fucking GOLD MINE yesterday.

Bendromeda Strain's picture

Wrong-o wet phart, his downvotes are testament to having won the comments this day. Rethink your position or report to Camp XRay immediately.

otschelnik's picture

The 20 yr old private who pushed the launch button mistook the target for a Ukrainian military craft? 

The Ukrainian airforce in the 2 weeks before lost 5-6 planes and helicopters to sophisticated anti-aircraft fire, presumably of Russian origin.  

 

HowdyDoody's picture

No, they lost them to manpads captured from trashed UKrop army groups.

 

Perth_Australia's picture

They lost them to shoulder mounter anti aircraft missiles MANPADs that can reach an aircraft at an altitude of up to 15,000ft. It is not sophisticated at all.

otschelnik's picture

That's exactly right Perth.  The earlier aircraft and choppers were shot down with the 'sa-18 igla 9k38' NATO code name "Grouse."  From what I've been told, its not as easy to operate as a stinger although it works by the same principal, IR tracking, and the training course in the Russian military to use it is 4 months.   So, you kinda wonder how those "rebels and separatists"  had so many trained firing teams... a total of 16 aircraft and 10 helicopters the Ukrainians lost, to be exact. 

The 'rebels and separatists' were having problems reaching the SU-24 bombers which were over the ceiling of the 'igla.'  This is where the Buk appears.  Flight MH17 was at 11,000 m when shot down.  That was the first high altitude shoot down.