What Trump's Wall Says To The World

Tyler Durden's picture

Submitted by Patrick Buchanan via Buchanan.org,

“Something there is that doesn’t love a wall,” wrote poet Robert Frost in the opening line of “Mending Walls.”

And on the American left there is something like revulsion at the idea of the “beautiful wall” President Trump intends to build along the 1,900-mile border between the U.S. and Mexico.

The opposition’s arguments are usually rooted in economics or practicality. The wall is unnecessary. It will not stop people from coming illegally. It costs too much.

Yet something deeper is afoot here. The idea of a permanent barrier between our countries goes to the heart of the divide between our two Americas on the most fundamental of questions.

Who are we? What is a nation? What does America stand for?

Those desperate to see the wall built, illegal immigration halted, and those here illegally deported, see the country they grew up in as dying, disappearing, with something strange and foreign taking its place.

It is not only that illegal migrants take jobs from Americans, that they commit crimes, or that so many require subsidized food, welfare, housing, education and health care. It is that they are changing our country. They are changing who we are.

Two decades ago, the Old Right and the neocons engaged in a ferocious debate over what America was and is.

Were we from the beginning a new, unique, separate and identifiable people like the British, French and Germans?

Or was America a new kind of nation, an ideological nation, an invented nation, united by an acceptance of the ideas and ideals of Jefferson, Madison, Lincoln and Dr. King?

The Old Right contended that America existed even before the Revolution, and that this new nation, this new people, wrote its own birth certificate, the Constitution. Before Washington, Madison and Hamilton ever went to Philadelphia, America existed.

What forced the premature birth of the nation — was the Revolution.

We did not become a new nation because we embraced Jefferson’s notion about all men being “created equal.” We became a new people from our familial break with the Mother Country, described in the declaration as a severing of ties with our “brethren” across the sea who no longer deserved our loyalty or love.

The United States came into being in 1789. The Constitution created the government, the state. But the country already existed.

When the Irish came in the mid-19th century to escape the famine and the Germans to escape Bismarck’s Prussia, and the Italians, Jews, Poles, Greeks, Slovaks came to Ellis Island, they were foreigners who became citizens, and then, after a time, Americans.

Not until decades after the Great Migration of 1890-1920, with the common trials of the Depression, World War II and Cold War, were we truly forged again into one united nation and people.

By 1960, almost all of us shared the same heroes and holidays, spoke the same language and cherished the same culture.

What those with memories of that America see happening today is the disintegration of our nation of yesterday. The savagery of our politics, exemplified in the last election, testifies to how Americans are coming to detest one another as much as the Valley Forge generation came to detest the British from whom they broke free.

In 1960, we were a Western Christian country. Ninety percent of our people traced their roots to Europe. Ninety percent bore some connection to the Christian faith. To the tens of millions for whom Trump appeals, what the wall represents is our last chance to preserve that nation and people.

To many on the cosmopolitan left, ethnic or national identity is not only not worth fighting for, it is not even worth preserving. It is a form of atavistic tribalism or racism.

The Trump wall then touches on the great struggle of our age.

Given that 80 percent of all people of color vote Democratic, neither the Trump movement nor the Republican Party can survive the Third Worldization of the United States now written in the cards.

Moreover, with the disintegration of the nation we are seeing, and with talk of the breakup of states like Texas and secession of states like California, how do we survive as one nation and people?

Old Europe never knew mass immigration until the 20th century.

Now, across Europe, center-left and center-right parties are facing massive defections because they are perceived as incapable of coping with the existential threat of the age — the overrunning of the continent from Africa and the Middle East.

President Trump’s wall is a statement to the world: This is our country. We decide who comes here. And we will defend our borders.

The crisis of our time is not that some Americans are saying this, but that so many are too paralyzed to say it, or do not care, or embrace what is happening to their country.

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syzygysus's picture

<- The last spasm of a dying empire.

<- New beginning of American Prosperity

FireBrander's picture

<- A major battle in the war of ideas. Continue with what got us here; or try a different route. 

A big round of applause please for Obama and Hillary...were it not for them, there would be no President Trump...we'd have Jeb or Rubio in the Oval Office...maybe even Bernie.

toady's picture

For me, it's all about the money...

TeamDepends's picture

Warning: The following video may induce Schadenboner. These "anarchist" snowflakes are about to find out the difference between peaceful protesting and rioting/blocking public transportation. The difference being one is tolerated while the other gets you a knuckle sammich from the long arm of the law.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m5zK-tzYCQM

two hoots's picture

 

Homogeneity is the historic/pre-historic norm.   Attempting to change that in a few short years is a fool’s errand.  It is innate, it is ineradicable.    It will take mostly a long natural process to change/adapt people of different races, languages, customs, deities, ideals, beliefs etc. it cannot be forced.   Thus, you do not need to feel bad because you prefer to be with your own kind although “they” will try to shame you.  We are animals, thinking animals, this we should never forget as it helps explain our natural, sometimes unpredictable, behavior.  

  

froze25's picture

I am not an Animal I am a man created in the image of the creator.

Who was that masked man's picture

Whether you like it or not, whether you believe it or not, you are an animal, decended from animals.

two hoots's picture

For centuries people  have shaved all parts of their bodies to hide this fact, from themselves.

JimT's picture

Building a wall that may very well be used by some future tyranical government to keep Americans from escaping is counter-productive.

End free food, housing, medical care, spending money and education for illegals, along with ending employment opportunities and deporting captured illegals. -- And the issue will quickly solve itself.

Building a wall without addressing the underlying incentives for entry will prove a completely fruitless effort.

Its all hat & no cattle.

N2OJoe's picture

1) Build the wall

2) Deport all libturds and illegals to meheeko

3) Eat popcorn as they all starve while demanding (and not receiving) handouts from the productive (deplorable) population

4) Prosper

Kotzbomber747's picture

Spot on JimT!

I can understand tougher border controls, but be careful what you wish for when it comes to Walls and Iron Curtains! (hint: North Korea, East Germany, totalitarianism)

swmnguy's picture

You are completely correct, just as Pat Buchanan is utterly wrong, and for the same reasons.

Buchanan can't touch the real reason we have all these illegals here, because his entire career has been served as an apologist for the people who want to keep things just the way they are, thank you very much.

I'm hoping President Trump doesn't owe the same people the same bootlicking but I can't tell yet.  His rhetoric has been at such a simplistic level designed to appeal to people's lowest and least rational instincts.  Maybe it's a ruse to gain support, but that may be too optimistic.

People from Mexico and further south come here because their own countries are hellholes and they can get work in the US which pays way less than is legal in the US or can provide a decent living at US prices, but which is vastly better than what they can earn at home, and even the worst conditions in the US are far better than the conditions available to them back home.

Every time they try to get their act together in their home countries, throw out the narco-traffickers, enforce their laws, build up their social systems; the US comes in and turns loose death squads, kills everyone trying to make things better, and returns the country to the control of US-based corporations, who form and maintain the death squads in the first place.  This has been going on for well over a century, going on two.

Then there's NAFTA.  For all the lies that NAFTA represents Mexico taking advantage of the US, by every measure Mexico's economy has collapsed since NAFTA, turning the entire country into indentured servitude for US corporations.  The American people (other than those who own large corporate interests) have gotten the shaft, and the Mexican people who don't own large corporate interests have been reduced to bare subsistence living.

If we're serious about ending illegal immigration, we need to put American in prison for hiring illegals.  Then we need to end NAFTA, part of which would force US corporations to follow local laws in the countries they operate.  Then we need to support the indigenous governments and social movements that arise to make those countries livable.  And we need to not kill all their leaders and civic-minded people when they try to make their countries tolerable places to live.

That will cause some very wealthy and powerful interests in the US to give up some profits.  Illegal labor is used to keep overall wages low, hurting American citizens at all income levels.  There is a reason we haven't "fixed" this problem.  It's because, to the wealthy American power elite, there is no problem; everything is working great for them.

Giant Meteor's picture

Another great post. "If we're serious about ending illegal immigration, we need to put American in prison for hiring illegals." Yes, this as well as your other prescriptions would have a net effect of "building a wall", albeit with less the cost, waste and hubris. On the other hand, your common sense suggestions do not make nice sound bites, especially regarding limited attention spans, and as we already know, common sense ain't common.

The other trouble is as you point out, the wealthy and the powerful have no incentive to end abuses on our global plantation. If I had to guess, things will devolve into what things have always devolved into during such times of great "imbalance," dislocations, inequality etc. that is to say more war, more overall violence, and definitely more authoritarianism and despotic "leaders." Not only are we living in interesting times, we are living in extremely dangerous times. The "global elite," the moneychangers, deep state etc. will not go quietly into the good night. I would suggest that had there been desire to fix or suspend these issues, it would have been done already, or perhaps never come to this in the first place  ... Altruism and goodness is not the natural statre of mankind.

Akzed's picture

We can multi-task, but thanks.

 

jaxville's picture

 If you don't know what separates humans from "other" animals you are hopeless.

two hoots's picture

We keep them in zoos but they don't put us in zoos?

Giant Meteor's picture

No, there are human zoo's too ..

Chris Dakota's picture

Wall builder stocks were in the tank Nov 7th, even 8th and then BOOM.

I should have bought them. lol

https://www.thestreet.com/story/13945461/1/these-stocks-could-soar-with-...

Wall comes from Jewish control of America. Importing danger, destruction, drugs, debauchery....period!

Jews fear the White Christian male only, they seek to lower his IQ by importing those with lower IQ.

Jewish children don't watch TV, that is for the goyim, they are in their bedrooms doing homework.

There is a movement in San Francisco among the male hipsters rejecting pornography and it's growing, they realized it is destructive to them.

Jews run the porn industry.

Internet-is-Beast's picture

Given that you are British, do you have the right to critisize Jews? If not, are you relying on ZH preserving your anonymity? Also, if it applies, what are the penalties in Britain for critisizing Jews?

unsafe-space-time's picture

Animal body is the hardware. Animals don't have much software. My Programmer is the Holy Spirit.

monoloco's picture

Sorry pal, man created the creator in his own image, we are just monkeys that figured out how to make tools.

FireBrander's picture

Proof of that is in all the "pictures" of Jesus...HE WAS BROWN, NOT WHITE! Looked like a "Muzzi" too...Were Jesus alive today, Obama would probably drone him.

TheMeatTrapper's picture

If Jesus were alive today and he threw the Jewish money changes out, you would be singing his praises. lol .

FireBrander's picture

Yes, I would priase him; right up until the "Jewish money changers" killed him; again.

halcyon's picture

"If the real Jesus Christ were to stand up today,
he'd be gunned down cold by the CIA."
 - The The, Armageddon Days are Here (Again)

 

Snípéir_Ag_Obair's picture

All the Jesuses?

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/surfeit.htm

Here's the thing: Just because its in an old book...

...doesnt mean it is accurate, true, or other than a COGNITIVE VIRUS.

http://www.unz.com/article/exodus-redux-jewish-identity-and-the-shaping-...

Snípéir_Ag_Obair's picture

I'll wager that downvoters dv'ed without checking the links (and so can not even attempt to refute the claims/evidence on the merits)

- which is dishonest

- which is lying

-which is a sin.

It is also false pride.

But don't worry: I know what The Backfire Effect is, even if you do not.

I think you likely basically good people - but you are under a spell.

If you have 'faith' why not test and strengthen it by reading evidence that is contrary to the Bible narratives?

There ** were ** a lot of guys named Jesus (well, in Aramaic) running around

The Exodus story has more holes in it than 'Oswald Acted Alone'

THAT WHICH CAN BE ASSERTED WITHOUT EVIDENCE
CAN BE REJECTED WITHOUT EVIDENCE.

you can not prove the truth of a text by referencing the same text.

Honestly, ask yourself:

Are you most interested in defending your faith against all contrary evidence...

or are you MOST interested in knowing the Truth?

Sit with that a moment. It's important.

two hoots's picture

It is a requirement to defend the belief.   It is rewarded to do so, where a denial is punished.  One should expect and respect such.   Man's truth vs faith are apples and oranges. 

 

halcyon's picture

You are trying to reasaon with bibletards. That's your mistake.

 

Akzed's picture

"If God existed, he'd be just as I imagine he should be, no better or worse." -Halcyon

What's "reasonable," I guess, is that pond scum came to life one day and evolved into you. Ok!

monoloco's picture

They had to suspend their reason to believe their ancient fairytales.

Akzed's picture

The shit you're peddling has been around forever, and the Church is still here, and will be when you're long gone. Ha ha ha!

TuPhat's picture

I know the truth and I will allow you to believe whatever lies you want.  I will feel sorry for you though.

TwelveOhOne's picture

For myself, I find the Heptadic Structure of Scripture to be compelling.  It's basically an encryption code built into the wording (in the original Hebrew and Greek, that is).  There are 75+ "rules of 7", meaning if you made random text, with one "rule of 7" you'd have six changes of getting it wrong for every chance of getting it right.  With only two rules, 48 changes of getting it wrong for every one right.  With 75+ rules, the chances are so high of getting it wrong, that the fact that it's right must be divine evidence.

Chuck Missler has a video on YouTube discussing this, which was the work of Dr. Ivan Panin.  Here it is, in two parts: 

https://youtu.be/flbaJfRwYxM

https://youtu.be/pxYwLvtnoyc

Jesus Christ's picture

Unfortunately, this is far too simple for most people to accept. Everybody keeps looking for 'Bible Codes' imbedded in the scripture to reveal some 'hidden' prophetic prediction such as World War 3 or the anti-Christ. However, if you just take the mathematical complexity of the scripture on its own merit, it HAS to validate the overt content of the scriptures. For example, if we received a binary coded message from outer space, the FACT that it is a binary message would tend to make us take the message SERIOUSLY. The mathematical complexity of the Hebrew scriptures SHOULD make people take the overt content of the scriptures quite seriously, but instead, you have moronic monkeys who insist that the scriptures were just written by evolved monkeys.

Snípéir_Ag_Obair's picture

Ever see the movie 'Pi'?

If you have not, regardless of your view on this stuff, next time youre bored, give it a watch.

(And learn about availability heuristics and confirmation bias)

If you look, hyperfocus, on finding 'X' you will find 'X' everywhere.

(consistent, significant over-representation of X RELATIVE TO Y and Z Matters... )

TwelveOhOne's picture

Yes, a similar thing happens whenever I buy a model of car I haven't owned before -- I start seeing it on the road everywhere.  I've seen the movie but memory is spotty, just checked IMDB and seems it is similar to Martin Armstrong's story?  (Guy builds a supercomputer and Wall Street gets interested.)

TwelveOhOne's picture

Agreed, it is the simplicity that leaps out at me.  I'm not looking for predictions in Scripture; I'm just looking to know God better.

I'm working on a project (separate from the "email me when I get a ZH reply to a comment" which is going well), which I was about to abandon because I just couldn't get the initial state configured.  Read a little (2 Samuel, I think chapters 7 and 8) and came back upstairs, and within 30 seconds or so I had figured out the issue and made a changes which I need to wait to propagate, but which should fix it.

This, to me, is just wild.  I didn't use any of the words that I read, or understanding of what King David was doing back then, to figure out why the DNS A record was pointing to the old "ghetto" server and not the new one we just provisioned.

But after banging my head against the wall (not literally, I'm recovering from concussions, last thing I need is another head injury) for hours, the answer arrives in seconds after reading some Scripture.  And, I even had the thought prior to reading it, "why bother I know I won't figure this out."  But I did.

Anyway, I agree that a binary-encoded message just appearing out of nowhere would be significant, I'm now of the opinion that there is no outer space, that the Earth is a plane not a planet, and planets are wandering stars which cannot be stood upon.  And, that the coming alien invasion is really demonic in nature.  Thus, I would be rather suspect about a "binary coded message from outer space".  But that's just a minor point and doesn't take away from the beautiful complexity of Scripture.  Some of those rules also had to have been "collaborated" on by the authors, who were separated by centuries and thus the only force that could have collaborated is extra-terrestrial (not outer space, just outside of our 3D+time).  For instance (I forget exactly, so this may not be completely accurate) there's a rule something like "words used in this book are found in other books" in some fashion (yeah I really forget...), and so the final author might have made edits so his text would fit -- but the preceding author couldn't have then edited his text, to make it fit the rules regarding the preceding author's text and the final author's text.  (I feel like I made a mess here but I'll leave it...)

Thanks again for the dialogue, and it's interesting the moniker I'm responding to as well. :)

TwelveOhOne's picture

Thanks for the link!  While the first longer answer does make some sense, I really liked the shorter second answer:

"I haven't seen any other work produce the Heptadic results that were obtained from the Bible. You may question everything else, but in order to debunk it, you must obtain the same results from any other books. Barring that, the Bible remains unique."

I have a plan to reproduce Dr. Ivan Panin's works, with the help of a computer.  The goal is to first validate what he had done; and then, hopefully, to find even more rules that the text fits.  Unfortunately recovering from concussions makes software much more difficult to produce.

swmnguy's picture

Not to mention, everybody and his brother was born of a virgin, died and was resurrected in that part of the world in those days.  Seriously, if people read a little history they'd have quite a different perspective.  Nothing in particular; just the standard ancient contemporaries.  Tacitus would do.  Reading some Marcus Aurelius would be good for about 99% of humanity.

The point being that the New Testament is a hodge-podge of the incredible variety of religious freak-outs that were going on in and around Jerusalem in that time.  The scene Monty Python's "Life of Brian" in the market in Jerusalem, with all the competing preachers, wasn't much of a parody of reality.  And Romans were nuts for whatever fad religion came out of the Middle East, kind of the same way modern Japanese hop on trends immediately and forget about them in a week.

And it's astonishing how many of the everyday concerns of humans and Empire are identical from 2000 years ago to today.  It's actually very reassuring in a way, to know that these problems aren't new and since we're all here, not having solved them may not be the real problem.  The real challenge may be to deal with ongoing issues we'll never solve but will always have to ameliorate as best we can.

Hey, Rome fell.  But I've been to Rome.  It's full of people, call them "Romans," and they've got stuff to do.  They're taking care of babies, shopping, going to work, falling in love, waiting for the bus, getting stuff done.  America will fall too.  And the babies won't feed themselves or change their own diapers nonetheless.  We'll still have stuff to get done.

NumberNone's picture

Really not interested in a theological debate but validating historical facts, even recent historical facts, is not an easy thing...in example, Shakespeare.  

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/find_out/guides/showbiz/shakespeare/ne...

Did Shakespeare really exist? 

The lack of information about the early part of Shakespeare's life has led to theories that he never actually existed.

cheech_wizard's picture

Standard Disclaimer: AABAB BAAAB AAAAA ABBAB AAABA ABAAA BAABA AAAAB AAAAA AAABA ABBBA ABBAB

 

ImGumbydmmt's picture

I am sorry but you have been misled by those web pages, but I greatly respect your research and see you are clearly on the path of truth.

Alternative facts if I may, respectfully.

https://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Demands-Questions-Challenging-Christians...

One “outside the Bible” respected source for the validity of Jesus is the Jewish recorded history by Josephus. Written around the time of sacking of Jerusalem by the Romans around 70 AD. Our copy was a 16th century translation.

Josephus was never a Christian. So he has no reason to distort history in favor of Jesus.

However, Josephus documents the real existence of Jesus, and his crucifixion by the leaders of time along with the death of John the Baptist. The account even states this Jesus was claimed to have been resurrected and there were living some 500 persons who bore witness to the resurrected Christ.

This text has of course been hotly contested by the intellectual community that would deny the life of Christ.

However even Arabic translations from the 11th century or possibly early contain these references in a similar form.

So an  11th c. Arabic translation of a 1st c. Jewish History (hostile translation of a hostile witness)  contains documentation of a literal Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected.

There are also even older manuscripts of 3rd century historians who use Josephus as a valid reference text.

However, I see what is being debated on this topic and Its not crystal clear just from these documents.

One can argue all they want based on ones own internal bias.

Even today we have a myriad of evidence to weigh in the news

9/11,  Sandy Hook, San Bernardino, JFK , Oklahoma City Bombing

An on and on.

So We need another test method for the Validity of Jesus Christ.

The one I recommend is the transformed life method. (both positive and negative)

 Summary:

If all that is said about and by Jesus is true, then there should be miraculously changed lives as a result, AND worldwide persecution of those who follow Jesus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_and_technology

These evidences we can clearly see, though both are largely suppressed by the mainstream media. Google it.

Ask any person, whether Christian or not, ( or yourself)  how they feel about a variety of religions Buddhism, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, and then ask them about Jesus.

No other figure in all history still draws such strong polarization of reaction, very few people are neutral on the topic of Jesus.

(Sounds similar to someone I heard about much more recently, I think it was someone important in American politics..,hmmm??)

Interesting that Trump also has aligned himself with the Evangelical Christians of America and how this also makes him a target of derision and maybe worse. Time will tell if he can honor this alignment, but the revulsion by the left that also rejects Christ is amazing to see.

I just prayed for you. That your life would be pursued by Jesus until he reaches your heart and transforms you in a positive way.  that you find truth in both the evidence remaining in the world, but more in your own heart. That in time your own love for others and Him reaches out and transforms a multitude of those around you.

 

 

Escapeclaws's picture

Your post is the first time I have heard that Josephus knew about and wrote about Jesus Christ, much less the resurrection. I wonder how that was kept from me all these years. Amazing--you just never know what you don't know, to quote Rumsfeld. Incredible.

Akzed's picture

Another thing about Flavius Jesephus is that in documenting the Jewish Roman War he recorded the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecies about it in Mt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21. See also the book of Revelation, which is not about events future to us (see "shortly" in Rev. 1:1).

His history has therefore been charged with forgery by people who can't admit that Jesus prophesied it and Josephus recorded its fulfillment - with no indication that he was familiar with the prophecies.

TwelveOhOne's picture

Beautifully written.  Amen.

Snípéir_Ag_Obair's picture

But Josephus knows nothing of Christians

It was the around the year 53 AD that Josephus decided to investigate the sects among the Jews. According to the gospel fable this was the period of explosive growth for the Christian faith: " the churches ... throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria ... were edified... and ... were multiplied." – Acts 9:31.

This is also the time of the so-called "Council of Jerusalem" when supposedly Paul regaled the brothers with tales of "miracles and wonders" among the gentiles (Acts 15.12).

And yet Josephus knows nothing of all this:

"When I was sixteen years old, I decided to get experience with the various sects that are among us. These are three: as we have said many times, the first, that of the Pharisees, the second that of the Saduccees, the third, that of the Essenes. For I thought that in this way I would choose best, if I carefully examined them all. Therefore, submitting myself to strict training, I passed through the three groups." – Life, 2.

Josephus elsewhere does record a "fourth sect of Jewish philosophy" and reports that it was a "mad distemper" agitating the entire country. But it has nothing to do with Christianity and its superstar:

"But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord.

They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man Lord ...

And it was in Gessius Florus's time that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and to make them revolt from the Romans. And these are the sects of Jewish philosophy." – Antiquities 18.23.

Nothing could better illustrate the bogus nature of the Testimonium than the remaining corpus of Josephus's work.Josephus knows nothing of Christians

It was the around the year 53 AD that Josephus decided to investigate the sects among the Jews. According to the gospel fable this was the period of explosive growth for the Christian faith: " the churches ... throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria ... were edified... and ... were multiplied." – Acts 9:31.

This is also the time of the so-called "Council of Jerusalem" when supposedly Paul regaled the brothers with tales of "miracles and wonders" among the gentiles (Acts 15.12).

And yet Josephus knows nothing of all this:

"When I was sixteen years old, I decided to get experience with the various sects that are among us. These are three: as we have said many times, the first, that of the Pharisees, the second that of the Saduccees, the third, that of the Essenes. For I thought that in this way I would choose best, if I carefully examined them all. Therefore, submitting myself to strict training, I passed through the three groups." – Life, 2.

Josephus elsewhere does record a "fourth sect of Jewish philosophy" and reports that it was a "mad distemper" agitating the entire country. But it has nothing to do with Christianity and its superstar:

"But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord.

They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man Lord ...

And it was in Gessius Florus's time that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and to make them revolt from the Romans. And these are the sects of Jewish philosophy." – Antiquities 18.23.

Nothing could better illustrate the bogus nature of the Testimonium than the remaining corpus of Josephus's work.

A native of Judea, living in the 1st century AD, Josephus was actually governor of Galilee for a time (prior to the war of 70 AD) – the very province in which Jesus allegedly did his wonders. Though not born until 37 AD and therefore not a contemporary witness to any Jesus-character, Josephus at one point even lived in Cana, the very city in which Christ is said to have wrought his first miracle.

Josephus's two major tomes are History of The Jewish War and The Antiquities of the Jews. In these complementary works, the former written in the 70s, the latter in the 90s AD, Josephus mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event which occurred there during the first seventy years of the Christian era.

At face value, Josephus appears to be the answer to the Christian apologist's dreams.

In a single paragraph (the so-called Testimonium Flavianum) Josephus confirms every salient aspect of the Christ-myth:

1. Jesus's existence 2. his 'more than human' status 3. his miracle working 4. his teaching 5. his ministry among the Jews and the Gentiles 6. his Messiahship 7. his condemnation by the Jewish priests 8. his sentence by Pilate 9. his death on the cross 10. the devotion of his followers 11. his resurrection on the 3rd day 12. his post-death appearance 13. his fulfillment of divine prophecy 14. the successful continuance of the Christians.

In just 127 words Josephus confirms everything – now that is a miracle!

BUT WAIT A MINUTE ...

Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.

The third century Church 'Father' Origen, for example, spent half his life and a quarter of a million words contending against the pagan writer Celsus. Origen drew on all sorts of proofs and witnesses to his arguments in his fierce defence of Christianity. He quotes from Josephus extensively. Yet even he makes no reference to this 'golden paragraph' from Josephus, which would have been the ultimate rebuttal. In fact, Origen actually said that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ."

Origen did not quote the 'golden paragraph' because this paragraph had not yet been written.

It was absent from early copies of the works of Josephus and did not appear in Origen's third century version of Josephus, referenced in his Contra Celsum.

(continues...)

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/josephus-etal.html

Snípéir_Ag_Obair's picture

Also see

http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/

Also, just do some searching re why {copies of} Josephus text, written decades after the alleged death of Jesus of Nazareth, does not rise to the level of proof.

Even if you reject the possibility his writings were amended by later Christians... his regurgitation, decades later, of allegations made by Jewish-Christians is no more indisputable proof of historical truth {{let alone divinity let alone proof of Jewish myths}} than writings of MUSLIMS about Mohammad made by his cult decades later.

The case for the existence of the Jesus of the NT is remarkably thin. Let's allow that a real guy (or amalgamated couple of guys) COULD HAVE really lived- sure, its possible.

There is still not ANY proof he was anything other than a man.

Do you believe Mohammad was divine? That Thor existed? Zeus? krishna?

Once you decide to claim there is *proof* that JC both

-existed; and
- was more than man

because the bible says so, and because you find a writer or two who seems to refer, many years later, to the same guy.... YOU HAVE A PROBLEM... because you have to explain why every other ancient text regarding claims of the miraculous of OTHER CULTS are NOT evidence while the texts you like are.

josephus must be considered, but is weak evidence, at best, and is not at all *proof* of either historicity or divinity or the accuracy of quotes in the NT (particularly given the OLDER so called gnostic gospels)

Great sub thread though, boys.