Obama's Surrogates Continue to Deny Trump Tower Surveillance, But Evidence Suggests Otherwise

The_Real_Fly's picture

The President's tweets regarding alleged Obama wiretapping of Trump Towers during the campaign is making a lot of waves this afternoon -- with the Sunday lineup of shills being interviewed on political discussion talk shows. From what we can gather thus far, the White House is calling for an investigation into the President's claims that Obama wiretapped his offices.

Rep. Schiff (D) calls the charges baseless and without merit, pointing out that Sean Spicer has said he would not discuss the matter further until it was investigated through the proper channels.

Trump's spokeswoman said she did not trust the Obama denial, illuminating a few points where the Obama administration had been less than forthcoming about their meddling in the past.

Here's the former Director of National Security, James Clapper, saying, unequivocally, that there wasn't a FISA court ordered wiretap on candidate Trump.

George Bush's former AG, Mukasey, said there was some sort of surveillance taking place on Trump or his cohorts during the campaign.

If we strip it all away and simply look at the facts on the ground, President Obama either illegally wiretapped candidate Trump's offices or did so legally -- that much is certain. If James Clapper is correct that there wasn't a court order for surveillance, then logic dictates they were done outside the boundaries of the law. The middle ground is a revelation that someone other than Trump was being surveilled at Trump Tower and Obama's talking heads are merely obfuscating the facts, in order to derail a proper inquiry.

Radio talk show host and former assistant to AG Meese wraps it all up nicely, concluding that Obama's spying was overt and blatant tactics of a police state.

Content originally generated at iBankCoin.com

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thebigunit's picture

Obama surrogates never thought they would HAVE to deny anything because they thought Hillary would win and everything would disappear down the memory hole.

Yes We Can. But Lets Not.'s picture

George Webb says it was Hillary Clinton who sought the wiretap, and obtained it through the help of Asst. FBI Director Andrew McCabe.

thebigunit's picture

Believable.

Do you have a source link?

thebigunit's picture
Hillary Was Tipped Off On Trump Wiretap – Tweeted About it One Week Prior to Election

 

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/03/hillary-tipped-off-trump-wiretap...

thebigunit's picture

Here's the basis for the Left's obsession with the Trump-Russia connection, and probably why they justified a FISA warrant and were monitoring (or trying to monitor) phones/servers in Trump Tower.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/01/that-secret-tr...

IAmNumberSix's picture

The evidence will be revealed in the investigation, thats how it works.

Rufus Temblor's picture

If they knew that Trump was wrong, they should do the investigation. If they find nothing they can then blame Trump for making a strong allegation with no evidence. But that does not seem to be the case at all. If there is truth to Trump's claim, then you do not investigate, but you do scream bloody murder.

Yes We Can. But Lets Not.'s picture

How ironic that Barack Obama has those stupid-big ears.

ronaldwilsonreagan's picture

I typical fashion here there is no evidence given. 

Reaper's picture

Barack, the serial liar, denies. Clapper, the perjurer, denies Barack knew. The FISA court granted the request in October, therefore the spying took place. The best possible scenario is Barack's underlings were obtaining the spying info and deliberately keeping Barack uninformed. Barack knew because he asked his underlings to not inform him.

Stinkytofu's picture

The FISA court granted the request in October, therefore the spying took place...

 

but when did the spying begin?  wasn't the first request made (and amazingly denied!)

much earlier?  was the spying going on even before the first request?

and was the request only made AFTER the fact as a cya when it became

apparent trump would win the erection and get the fisa details...eventually?

 

and of course obama didn't order it.  he knows enough to practice plausible

deniabllity.  when the prez sez "somebody should look into that", it's not

technically an order, nor a request......but it gits done just the same.

 

but an even more importanter question........when did the surveillance end?

before the erection?  after the erection, but prior to inauguration?

did it continue after inauguration?

is it still ongoing?

who had access to the intel....legally/officially?

....and who(m) did they tell????????

 

 

 

dumbhannity's picture

You are a highly placed person who knows a FISA was ordered directly contradicting the Intelligence Director who was in charge and the FBI director? You are a Levin looneytooner with shit for brains along with the Idiot in Chief trump.

Rufus Temblor's picture

I think it has always been Valerie Jarret's role to manage the covert ops, giving Obama deniability.  I believe she absolutely did keep Obama informed and took directions from him.

south40_dreams's picture

Trump should order total surveillance of the obama plantation. After all, they're openly plotting to overthrow the government

gregga777's picture

I have no doubt that the Bucking Ofama regime wire tapped and otherwise spied on Donald Trump and his 2016 Presidential campaign. After all, these are typical police state tactics and the United States of America is a police state. I don't believe a word that anyone in the FBi (Feral Bureau of iWeasels ) says Including Director James Comey (widely reported to be on the KKK (Klinton Krime Klan) Pedophiles R' Us payroll). Their sole job is protecting the Intellectual Yet Idiot classes riling morons and lying to the American People is second nature to them.

DonaldWashington's picture

 

Yes he should. As we know, the current structure of the FBI, and IC more broadly, came about in response to 9/11. This transformation was not a reactionary one, as we are led to believe. It was meticulously planned and implemented by a cabal in DC and at the DOJ Southern District of New York.   

There are many great articles here (https://idraintheswamp.com/home/intel-takeover/) summarizing what happened and who was involved.  

These same people, after leaving government "service" went on to join a company called Decision Sciences. I strongly advise checking it out. (https://idraintheswamp.com/home/decision-sciences/

I found out about the company in FBI Records Vault HRC part 5 pg 249-250 Justin Cooper (http://archive.is/sh1Ts

 

Turns out Lindsay Graham and Cuck Schumer took a trip to HK for a demo of the company's product.  

CODEL GRAHAM FOCUSES ON CURRENCY AND PORT SECURITY | WIKILEAKS 06HONGKONG1285 | MAR 27 2006 

 

Of the individuals mentioned in the above links, many lobbied for, testified in favor of before Congress, or performed some other action on behalf of the company, while serving in public office, or as some sort of representative to the government. There are others, not mentioned above, who have not worked for Decision Sciences, directly, but do have close ties to the business, and lobbied or represented its interests.    

 

[Senate Hearing 110-1227] | SUBCOMMITTEE ON SURFACE TRANSPORTATION AND MERCHANT MARINE INFRASTRUCTURE, SAFETY, AND SECURITY | COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE, SCIENCE, AND TRANSPORTATION | JUN 12, 2008 | Jayson Ahern

I want to thank the Committee for its strong support of CBP. This Committee played a central role in the passage of the Security and Accountability for Every Port (SAFE) Act of 2006, legislation that directed the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to explore, on a pilot basis, the feasibility and potential benefits of an international scanning program at three foreign ports. I look forward to reporting back to you on our experiences during these pilots and on some of the lessons we have learned.....  

SECRETARY CHERTOFF'S MEETING WITH SECRETARY FOR SECURITY AMBROSE LEE AND HONG KONG PORT OPERATORS | WIKILEAKS 06HONGKONG1476_a | APR 08 2006

1. (C) On March 31, U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Secretary Michael Chertoff met with Hong Kong Secretary for Security Ambrose Lee to discuss the global war on terror. On April 1, Chertoff visited Hong Kong's ports and met with terminal operators to discuss maritime security. Secretary Chertoff said that the U.S. was exploring solutions that balanced the need to improve maritime security with continued efficiency of handling and shipping cargo. Technology and better awareness of supply chain management were key issues. Public and Congressional pressure demanded increased security, including screening for radiological materials. Secretary Lee noted that intelligence sharing with the U.S. and other countries enabled Hong Kong authorities to better monitor its borders so that the terrorist threat in Hong Kong remained low to moderate. Hong Kong's "smart ID card" contained biometric data; Hong Kong would start issuing passports with biometric data in the first quarter of 2007. Also on April 1, Secretary Chertoff toured Hong Kong's Smart ID production facilities at Hong Kong Immigration Headquarters. End summary.  

Eric Womble (https://www.congress.gov/crec/2002/11/19/CREC-2002-11-19-pt2-PgS11542-3.pdf)

Gary Gilbert (https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06HONGKONG2373_a.html) (http://archive.is/rw60y)

SuzerainGreyMole's picture

This is utterly believeable considering how totally insane the globalist faction of the US deep state is.  These buggers are bound to slip up sooner or later however; we can only hope it will be soon, because clearer evidence is needed of all this.  Obama, in my opinion, is an evil person, so one should expect the worst.  The globalists are just getting started to destroy what they don't want: somebody who as actually worked out the military/security warfare state does not pay or work for anybody, except the 1 per cent.  Also, it is destroying life on earth, as we have seen.  Time for everybody who can influence this situation in power to get to work to stop all this.

BuckWild's picture

Most of us all know that the government has been out of control for a very long time. At least since 1913 when the Fed was started.

We talk about it, bitch about it, and things progressivly get worse every year. Why we cant unite as freedom loving Americans, and regain control of our nation? We chose to bicker about Right, Left propagandized BS fully knowing both sides are not on our side.

I am so concerned for my childrens future.

Lets see what are we giving them....... mega trillions of debt that can never be paid because there is no money to pay it....... Taxes at every turn.... taxes on labor...taxes on buying.....taxes on selling...... taxes to keep our property( we dont own anything anymore we are all servants of the state)....taxes to maintain our God given rights to travel, and many other things they have decided to force us to have a licence. Military bases in 120 countries. Multiple national police forces......our government completely voilates the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. They are killing everyone and anyone who opposes them.The judicial is Admirality and Maritime jurisdiction without real common law trails. People are put in prison with no injured party. Wow the list is endless.......... We have to follow hidden codes and statutes that should only apply to shipyards, ports, military bases, batteries and DC proper.

The American people have been playing the fool way too long and the world is laughing and crying the same time about us.

 

Is this not what the founders declared their independence from when this nation was founded?

 

The grand essentials of happiness is someone to love, believing in something greater than yourself, something to hope for and equally important something to do. Every licensing is an injury to liberty, as government takes away your rights and then sells it back to you.
Chupacabra-322's picture

@ Buck,

You're preaching to the Choir. I've put together a compelling post with accompanying list of obvious High Crimes & Treason / Sedition. Is the DOJ even big enough to Prosecute all the Crimes & Lawlessness?

This scandal cries out for aggressive investigation. Let’s see the initial FISA application, and the court order denying it. Then let’s see the second application, and the order that approved it. Let’s put the Obama administration officials who signed the applications under oath, and find out who put them up to it. Let’s find out what judges denied the first application, and what judges granted the second one. Let’s get the details on the Obama administration’s spying. Did they tap the Trump campaign’s telephones? If so, which lines? Did they hack into the Trump campaign’s servers? If so, which ones?

Obviously, as President Trump said, the Obama administration learned nothing of significance from its spying on the Trump campaign. But it now appears that the election of 2016 may have been hacked after all, in a far more meaningful way than an intrusion into Debbie Wasserman-Schultz’s email account. It may have been hacked by the Obama administration. We need to find out what happened. Congress should give top priority to this investigation.

Absolutely.

So what Criminals at large Obama, Clapper & Lynch have done 17 days prior to former CEO Criminal Obama leaving office was to Decentralize & weaken the NSA. As a result, Intel gathering was then regulated to the other 16 Intel Agencies.

Thus, taking Centuries Old Intelligence based on a vey stringent Centralized British Model, De Centralized it, filling the remaining 16 Intel Agenices with potential Spies and a Shadow Deep State Mirror Government.

All controlled from two blocks away at Pure Evil Criminal War Criminal Treasonous at large, former CEO Obama's Compound / Lair.

It's High Treason / Sedition being conducted "Hidden In Plain View" by the Deep State. It's the most Bizzare Transition of Power I've ever witnessed.

Unprecedented.

And, If Obama, Lynch & Clapper all agreed 17 days out to change the surveillance structure of the NSA. What date exectly did the changes occur in relation to the first FISA request for the Trump Wire Taps?

Thing is, there are multiple different High Crimes at play.
1. The looting of Fanny Mae & Freddie Mac to fund Obamacare.
2. The Lynch DOJ tax payer slush fund to fund Political Leftists Groups
3. The FISA wiretapping

Irrefutable proof of the absolute, complete, open Lawlessness by the Criminal Fraud UNITED STATES, CORP. INC., its CEO & Board of Directors.

1. Torture .
2. WMD lie to the American People.
3. Lying the American People into War.
4. Illegal Wars of Aggression.
5. Arming, funding & training of terror organizations by the State Dept. / CIA & members of CONgress.
6. BENGAZI
7. McCain meets with ISIS (Pics available).
8. Clapper lies to CONgress.
9. Brennan lies to CONgress & taps Congressional phones / computers.
10. Lynch meets Clinton on tarmac.
11. Fast & Furious deals with the Sinaloa Cartel.
12. Holder in Contempt of CONgress.
13. CIA drug / gun running / money laundering through the tax payer bailed out TBTFB.
14. Illegal NSA Spying on the American People.
15. DNC Federal Election Crime / Debbie Wasserman Shultz.
16. Hillary Clinton email Treason.
17. Clinton Foundation pay to play RICO.
18. Anthony Weiner 650,000 emails #PizzaGate Pedo Crimes.
19. Secret Iran deal.
20. Lynch takes the Fifth when asked about Iran deal
21. FBI murders LaVoy Finicum

Siamo pazzi's picture

We have spent 3 years filing under the US unified Common Law Grabd Jury . www.nationallibertyalliance.org
We need juror pools to be filled . We need more Americans ! We are IN THE COURT NOW .. will be responding , and sit in on a Mon. night national meeting at the weekly call tab .
Read our filings , we have some in video form as well .
We are in 50 states and 3,133 counties . Let's get the jurors ready .
Time to take our jurisdiction back or we will lose the Republic for good .
Election issues are irrelevant if we are running a parallel De Jure Republic while the fraudsters run free and fly our flag, occupying our Capitol ...
it's time . We have done the leg work .. we need people ready if we start to indict . We have filed against everyone from the county sheriffs up to SCOTUS, and joint Chiefs . They are all guilty of fraud , Rico , and spread their tentacles to the states and that's why we have no representation to stand up ! The corporation signs their paycheck . We need to take the foreign enemy down ! The BAR is a big part of that !

Let's get this done . Step up people ! We have free constitutional and civics course at the sight as well .

Chupacabra-322's picture

@ Simao,

Thank you for the link. Strength in numbers. Peaceful Non Compliance / Non Participation / CONSENT into the Criminal Fraud UNITED STATE, CORP. INC. & it's Minions at the Criminal Fraud STATE & LOCAL Levels & Municipalities.

45North1's picture

Not sure if the curtain is being pulled back suddlenly on the deep state or if its scab is being ripped off.

Paper Mache's picture

The thick scab''s being ripped off very slowly, causing maximum pain, revealing the foul and putrid stench of deep rooted corruption within. Don't ya just love it? Gas masks please

I hope Mr President is seriously starting to rethink the Clinton''s need to suffer a bit more now she''s had time to recover and heal? Come on Donald, keep that campaign promise. 

LukeWorm's picture

Where's the evidence?

LeftandRightareWrong's picture

We won't know for sure until Assange says it is time to know.

gdpetti's picture

True, the best thing is to always put it out there before the public and put your 'enemy' on defense... Carl Rove was a 'genius' at these 'dirty campaign' tactics of telling lies about his opponent and forcing them to defend themselves... after the public now sees them as dirty... 'perfect'... no different here..... throw all the data out there, same with our fake inflation numbers, job numbers, war budgets, covert ops etc....

Because, like it or not, it is all gonna come out of the closet... it's part of the 'transition' to the next level of this 'game'.... once 'access' is granted... the question is whether Mother Nature swings in first? But until then, put them on their heels before they do it to you.... think football... or rugby... who's gonna control the line of skrimage? There is so much real dirt out there that it isn't hard to find... and a few tweets here and there will help sell it.... because that's how all products are sold... with marketing... otherwise, the product is never heard of for the public..

Stef1304's picture

Mark LEVIN is doing the job on "blatant tactics of a police state", which is what USA are becoming...

Great work ! 

This is also the reason why whistleblowers like Snowden should be forgiven, protected & honored by the new POTUS.

Hope Trump gets there... sooner or later. 


 

 

scraping_by's picture

Obama would never give a pass to Snowden - too patriotic, too heterosexual. The postdated pass for Manning is entirely part of promoting gender confusion.

SILVERGEDDON's picture

No. Barry is hoping to get lucky with Manning, or she would be rotting for life in prison.

CO2isLife's picture

BTW, has everyone forgotten Obama's comment to the Russian President about waiting for the election to be over?

Obama to Russia: ‘After My Election I Have More Flexibility’

http://www.weeklystandard.com/obama-to-russia-after-my-election-i-have-m...

CO2isLife's picture

If there is a FISA request, publish it. This could be a goldmine. Democrats make up a bogus Russian threat as a ruse to investigate Trump. You gotta love it. Watergate II. Trump's tactics should be used in the Climate Change fight as well.

Climate “Science” on Trial; How Does Ice Melt In Sub-Zero Temperatures?

https://co2islife.wordpress.com/2017/03/05/climate-science-on-trial-how-...

MisterMousePotato's picture

You will find no one on this planet with greater contempt for each and every claim and assertion made by the climate fraudsters than me.

Even so, your article is utter rubbish. A complete waste of time at best, and at worst, might lead others to take obviously incorrect positions in opposition to this fraud.

How does ice melt in sub-zero temperatures? Are you kidding me? You never had a freezer with an ice tray?

It's called sublimation, I think. Your claim is as specious as the reason given by algore for the disappearance of Kilaminjaro's glacier.

Al Tinfoil's picture

"I am not a crook"

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman"

"I did not order wiretapping of Trump"

 

I rest assured.

konadog's picture

"You can keep your doctor"

forestwind's picture

What exactly would Russia gain from interfering in the U.S. election campaign, which seems to be ongoing? Destabilization? That is happening without any "help" from Russia. It seems that Russia does not care that much about the U.S. They have turned East to China and away from the dollar. Why would Russia want to take over a basket case like Ukraine? or Latvia? I my fantasy, I would be fun if world governments would change places every 5 years or so. Let's see if Washington could feed, house, employ, raise living standards for over 1/4 of the world population in China. How effective would Putin be as U.S. president? Let's see how Brussels could manage the vast Russian Federation?

lakecity55's picture

"What did the president know, and when did he know it?"

 

---Watergate

***
Towergate:
Watergate on steroids. Unlike Nixon's presidency, ruthlessly attacked by the MSM, this time the MSM ruthlessly defends the new Nixon: Bath House Barry and Towergate.

The MSM has the ability to make it headlines or make it vanish. Hold them to Account!

Usura's picture
  • The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid. If all this didn't help, they pretended not to understand, or, if challenged, they changed the subject in a hurry, quoted platitudes which, if you accepted them, they immediately related to entirely different matters, and then, if again attacked, gave ground and pretended not to know exactly what you were talking about. Whenever you tried to attack one of these apostles, your hand closed on a jelly-like slime which divided up and poured through your fingers, but in the next moment collected again. But if you really struck one of these fellows so telling a blow that, observed by the audience, he couldn't help but agree, and if you believed that this had taken you at least one step forward, your amazement was great the next day. The Jew had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember a thing, except that he had proved the correctness of his assertions the previous day.

Sometimes I stood there thunderstruck. I didn't know what to be more amazed at: the agility of their tongues or their virtuosity at lying. Gradually I began to hate them.

  • And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord.[1]
    • Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
    • I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

Was there any shady undertaking, any form of foulness, especially in cultural life, in which at least one Jew did not participate? On putting the probing knife carefully to that kind of abscess one immediately discovered, like a maggot in a putrescent body, a little Jew who was often blinded by the sudden light.[1]

chunga's picture

If you ever wondered why they don't get criticized, it's the very genesis of the phenomenon of "Politically Correct". I suspect there's some evil in there somewhere and I have no idea how they get away with it.

mchandler@ameritech.net's picture

They spy on everybody. Why would they exclude Trump?

BuckWild's picture

What good for the goose is good for the gander?

ABC intellengence agencies spying on everyone way before 911. 911 created to justify what has been happening for a long time.

The fox has been running the chicken coop for a long time and now the foxes are not happy about the fact that the fox plan is out of control.

Soon the AI computers will decide that no humans should live and then the end happens.

mvsjcl's picture

Hey! I've seen that movie before!

Zarbo's picture

Trump should re-consolidate the surveillance organizations (17?) and cut the resulting organization's budget to zero.  Let them live off the opium income.

DonaldWashington's picture

 

Yes he should. As we know, the current structure of the FBI, and IC more broadly, came about in response to 9/11. This transformation was not a reactionary one, as we are led to believe. It was meticulously planned and implemented by a cabal in DC and at the DOJ Southern District of New York.   

There are many great articles here (https://idraintheswamp.com/home/intel-takeover/) summarizing what happened and who was involved.  

These same people, after leaving government "service" went on to join a company called Decision Sciences. I strongly advise checking it out. (https://idraintheswamp.com/home/decision-sciences/

I found out about the company in FBI Records Vault HRC part 5 pg 249-250 Justin Cooper (http://archive.is/sh1Ts

 

Turns out Lindsay Graham and Cuck Schumer took a trip to HK for a demo of the company's product.  

CODEL GRAHAM FOCUSES ON CURRENCY AND PORT SECURITY | WIKILEAKS 06HONGKONG1285 | MAR 27 2006 

 

Of the individuals mentioned in the above links, many lobbied for, testified in favor of before Congress, or performed some other action on behalf of the company, while serving in public office, or as some sort of representative to the government. There are others, not mentioned above, who have not worked for Decision Sciences, directly, but do have close ties to the business, and lobbied or represented its interests.  

 

[Senate Hearing 110-1227] | SUBCOMMITTEE ON SURFACE TRANSPORTATION AND MERCHANT MARINE INFRASTRUCTURE, SAFETY, AND SECURITY | COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE, SCIENCE, AND TRANSPORTATION | JUN 12, 2008 | Jayson Ahern

I want to thank the Committee for its strong support of CBP. This Committee played a central role in the passage of the Security and Accountability for Every Port (SAFE) Act of 2006, legislation that directed the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to explore, on a pilot basis, the feasibility and potential benefits of an international scanning program at three foreign ports. I look forward to reporting back to you on our experiences during these pilots and on some of the lessons we have learned.....  

SECRETARY CHERTOFF'S MEETING WITH SECRETARY FOR SECURITY AMBROSE LEE AND HONG KONG PORT OPERATORS | WIKILEAKS 06HONGKONG1476_a | APR 08 2006

1. (C) On March 31, U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Secretary Michael Chertoff met with Hong Kong Secretary for Security Ambrose Lee to discuss the global war on terror. On April 1, Chertoff visited Hong Kong's ports and met with terminal operators to discuss maritime security. Secretary Chertoff said that the U.S. was exploring solutions that balanced the need to improve maritime security with continued efficiency of handling and shipping cargo. Technology and better awareness of supply chain management were key issues. Public and Congressional pressure demanded increased security, including screening for radiological materials. Secretary Lee noted that intelligence sharing with the U.S. and other countries enabled Hong Kong authorities to better monitor its borders so that the terrorist threat in Hong Kong remained low to moderate. Hong Kong's "smart ID card" contained biometric data; Hong Kong would start issuing passports with biometric data in the first quarter of 2007. Also on April 1, Secretary Chertoff toured Hong Kong's Smart ID production facilities at Hong Kong Immigration Headquarters. End summary.  

Eric Womble (https://www.congress.gov/crec/2002/11/19/CREC-2002-11-19-pt2-PgS11542-3.pdf)

Gary Gilbert (https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06HONGKONG2373_a.html) (http://archive.is/rw60y)

lakecity55's picture

As a result of this fiasco, Trump will have overwhelming popular support to Dismantle these nefarious outfits.

 

LibertarianMenace's picture

I know, talk about an embarassment of riches!

Hata Mari's picture

Let's start with the ones Obama gave enhanced powers to just before leaving office.

But really, 17? Really? Can you say ... redundant? Can you say ... waste of money?

PT's picture

17:  Competition makes them cheaper!

:P