Kyle Bass: "China's Credit System Is Reaching A Boiling Point"

Tyler Durden's picture

Fresh on the heels of the biggest-ever two-week drop in onshore dollar-yuan, noted China bear Kyle Bass gave an interview where he addressed one of the most exasperating aspects of the short-selling business, and an issue that he is no doubt grappling with at this very moment: What to do when confidence in your investing thesis is undermined by uncooperative markets.

It’s been about three years since Bass first announced a massive bet against the Chinese yuan, a position that he has been forced to justify to his increasingly nervous investors, as the Chinese currency’s more than 6% surge since May – and its nearly 8% climb against the dollar so far this year - has more than reversed the currency’s largest one-year decline since 1994.

To be sure, he’s still willing to explain how ballooning assets in shady Chinese wealth management products, which have swollen to more than $40 trillion in aggregate, are destined to collapse in a cascade of bad debt, taking the country’s banking system down in the process.

He discussed his views on China – while also answering a few questions about events in his life that helped shape his investing outlook during an interview on “Adventures in Finance.”

After being asked about events in his life that inspired him, Bass shared a story about his upbringing in working class Texas, where he said he started working at the age of 13 and eventually paid his own way through school.

His family didn’t have money for little extras like eating out. This inspired Bass to be very diligent about saving.

“We never had enough capital to do the things other people were doing like go out to dinner a couple of nights a week…I’m not saying material success or anything but enough to live the life you want to live.

 

I started working when I was young and I kept working nonstop.

 

One day I was literally trying to scrape change together to eat and I said this will never happen to me another day in my life. That was a moment where I felt like I had gotten myself into a situation where I was spending more than I could earn and that was partly because I was pushing through an education and that inspired me.

 

Therefore, I always said that from the day I graduated college, I would save 50 cents of every dollar I ever earned. My parents we had a great family but they had their shortcomings and those shortcomings really drove me to save.”

Bass said he was lucky to be exposed to “some of the world’s best short sellers” early in his career, adding that the first stock he ever shorted went straight to zero…an experience that he ironically described as one of the worst things to happen to him.  

“My second answer to your question is when I got into investing…I was covering event-driven accounts on the sell side for special situations and I was working with some of the world’s best short sellers and early on, one of the very first positions I ever took was I put a short position on a company – remember when East and West Germany came together and a lot of the East German companies were being subsidized, and yet they moved their way into the western capital markets and they went public and there was this shipping company…and if you looked through the numbers the executives were taking the revenue and subsidies and buying yachts and planes and cars…basically embezzling.

 

“The worst thing that happened to me was the first company I ever shorted it went from $100 to $80 to $60 to $40 to $20 - it just fell apart, which by the way, is the worst thing that can happen when you’re young and you’ve done a lot of work and you say to yourself ‘this is just easy.’”

 

I was wanting to conquer the world and conquer Wall Street and it was this beautiful complex jungle that you could navigate through.”

Brimming with confidence from his first big payday, Bass found another company that he believed was certain to fail…even confronting an executive who had abruptly left about possible malfeasance and illegality.

But unfortunately for Bass, this time, markets were less cooperative, and he lost everything.

“So, then the next position I took was we had worked with a bunch of accountants and combed through many balance sheets and income statements that we could and we found this company…Their income statement didn’t add up and their chief operating officer had just resigned for personal reasons and I made it my mission to track him down. I finally tacked him down and I said I just want to ask you a few questions about your income statement and why you resigned…he said he left that company because the CEO asked him to zero out some cost of goods sold line items so it could stay within its debt covenants and I wasn’t willing to break that ethical and legal barrier. And I said 'oh my goodness we’ve got them.'

 

I said have you spoken with the authorities. He said he hadn’t yet. And I said he needed to call the SEC right away.

 

We live in a world of imperfect information, but for those people who want to dig and do a lot of the work and get to a place where you end up getting as much information as you can and acting on it.”

Thinking it the firm’s stock was headed for an imminent collapse, Bass put all his money – hundreds of thousands of dollars – into a short position. But then the unexpected happened: an influential letter writer dubbed the stock a buy, and it soared. As Bass recalls, he got margin called “all the way up,” leaving him bankrupt.

“If you remember, during the tech craze there were all these momentum buyers…we had fully positioned ourselves and a letter writer named Carlton Lutz who wrote the technology markets letter of the day dubbed the company the son of Intel and the stock went promptly from about $16 a share to $40. I got margin called out all the way up until I was completely wiped out.

 

I was apoplectic I thought the world was going mad. Some of my well-heeled clients actually shorted more and the I remember that like it was yesterday and that was the greatest thing that ever happened to me, losing all of my money on something where I knew I was right.

 

From an investing perspective getting completely wiped out when it was so near and dear to me and thinking that it was the end of the world and that I was an abject failure and that the investing thing wasn’t for me…and looking back at it, it couldn’t have happened at a better time in my life. You want that to happen as early in your career as you can. You want it to be devastating…to teach you to bring humility to investing. You should never set yourself up for the knockout punch. You should never put 100% of your assets in anything."

In another example of how difficult it can be to correctly time a short play, Bass recounted the story of Avanti, a software company whose executives eventually went to prison for IP theft. From the beginning of the process to the end, it took seven years for the stock to drop.

“There was a company called Avanti that was designed by a couple of Cadence Design employees. The CEO was violently competitive so he wanted to launch a company to compete with them. So, what did they do? They stole the company’s software downloaded it onto their hard drives and left.

 

They put typos in the code so if anyone stole the code, it would be obvious…authorities had them cold. But it took the stock seven years to get obliterated. Those are big lessons because some of those lessons are hard to learn.”

Which finally brings us to China. Bass says he’s spent the last three years intently studying China’s credit system. But even though he’s convinced it’s one of the largest bubbles in financial history, calling the timing of the collapse has proven incredibly difficult.

“I’ve dedicated the last three years of my life to understanding China’s credit system. I would say we understand it as well as anyone in the world does. And it’s the biggest bubble we have ever seen in the history of financial markets. $40 trillion of assets in a system with $2 trillion in equity."

 

We wrote our magnum opus on this in 2016 and here we are in 2017 and it hasn’t happened.”

Aside from China's credit bubble, the simmering conflict in North Korea and tensions between the US and China related to the latter's insistence on building in the Spratly Islands also threaten China's economy, as well as global risk assets.

“We’re now in a bubble of epic proportions for Chinese credit...everything seems to be bubbling to the top and reaching a boiling point almost concurrently."

To be sure, there are a lot of powerful interests around the world that would suffer if China’s economy collapsed. But despite this, because he believes in the position, Bass is going to stay on his side of the trade – even as other longtime China bears like Mark Hart announced this week that he was abandoning a seven-year long bet on a massive yuan devaluation.

“People so want for everything to be okay. Nobody in their right mind wants us to be right because if I’m right were going to see a global growth slowdown you think about the concentric circles of how it affects each participant. The economy may really slow down and we might have additional problems…so I’m going to keep investing the way I am and hope it all works out.”

 

You can listen to the rest of the interview below:


 

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pitz's picture

Massive deflation straight ahead, which means the Yuan will go to the moon. 

Not sure why Bass keeps getting this backwards. 

Five Star's picture

Chinese companies are cumulative  cash flow negative going back to 2002

http://thesoundingline.com/chart-day-chinese-corporate-debt-bubble/

38BWD22's picture

 

 

I have been writing for years that the BRICs (acronym made up by Goldman-Sachs, bwa ha) are the paper tigers.  China and Russia have graver problems than even the USA (which are very bad).

 

Bay of Pigs's picture

Russia? How so? Lots of oil, gas, gold and little debt.

38BWD22's picture

 

 

Demographics is destiny.

TRUE re resources and debt.  They are still totalitarian though, even more so than in the USA.  Step too far out of line, they kill you (ah, well, Seth Rich...).

veritas semper vinces's picture

You're mistaken. Their natality is much higher than Europe.And as for US,look at the abortions for whites. US natality is hispanics and blacks(whites are now 43% of population,down from >70%)

Déjà view's picture

COUNTRY COMPARISON :: CURRENT ACCOUNT BALANCE

Top 4
1 EUROPEAN UNION $387,100,000,000 2016 EST.
2 GERMANY $294,300,000,000 2016 EST.
3 CHINA $196,400,000,000 2016 EST.
4 JAPAN $191,000,000,000 2016 EST.

Bottom 4
196 AUSTRALIA -$33,200,000,000 2016 EST.
197 CANADA -$51,080,000,000 2016 EST.
198 UNITED KINGDOM -$114,500,000,000 2016 EST.
199 UNITED STATES -$481,200,000,000 2016 EST.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/21...

JRobby's picture

The sum total of uninformed asshole opinions here could plug a black hole.

hobopants's picture

MSM has a strong pro USA bias, Zerohedge has a very strong pro Russian bias. You are an uninformed asshole only if you gobble up all the propaganda here without thinking it over critically.

Dochen rolling bearing has been around here for a long time and knows his stuff. He is absolutely correct, Russia, like all modern countries today has alot of problems.You would do well to question more of what you read, Zero Hedge, like all media outlets, has an agenda to push, and you are a fool if you can't see it.

francis scott falseflag's picture

Why don't you tell us just a few of the China's graver problems?  Or do we have to wait

 for KB's talking points?   The PBOC can do whatever the FED did in 2009 and on.  

 

Who knows, maybe they make up as much shit as the FED does.  If the game is

rigged on Wall Street, it's rigged on every street in the world.

38BWD22's picture

 

 

"If the game is rigged on Wall Street, it's rigged on every street in the world."

Indeed.  + a billion.  Rigged everywhere.

*   *   *

I wrote of Russia's largest problem in response to my virtual friend "Bay of Pigs".

francis scott falseflag's picture

The corn market in Rome 2000 years ago was rigged.  Probably way before that.

francis scott falseflag's picture

Russia's largest problem is the same of that of all the world's

Existing contemporaneously with the selfish, greedy

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

GUS100CORRINA's picture

Kyle Bass: "China's Credit System Is Reaching A Boiling Point"

My response: In a previous blog post, I share the 1894 prophecy below 

One week before the solar eclipse transversed the continental US, Breaking Israel News was the first news service to publish an article about a prediction in the Yalkut Moshe, written by Rabbi Moshe ben Yisrael Benyamin in Safed in 1894. Rabbi Benyamin predicted that when a solar eclipse occurs at the beginning of the Hebrew month of Elul, as this one did, “It is a bad sign for the other nations, bringing great damage to the kings of the East, and bringing great storms and death to animals.”

Well, the 2nd part of the prophecy was fulfilled with the storms now devastating the USA. The next part of the prophecy is damage to the Kings of the East. We know that DPNK is under great stress. Based on the Kyle Bass assessment, it looks like China is next maybe? This would fulfill the 1st part of the prophecy.

Again, remember this was written in 1894!

We do live in interesting times.

veritas semper vinces's picture

If you talk about prophecies,I prefer Baba Vanga 's prophecies or Edgar Cayce's. I do not care for anything any talmudic Rabbi has to say . They killed the true Messiah,Jesus ,they falsified the Bible,their God is Satan.

Baba Vanga:everything is going to melt like ice,only the glory of Vladimir,the glory of Russia will remain.(Nobody knew about Mr. Putin then,he was in his 20's,studying at the University)

Cayce:through Russia comes the hope of freedom for the whole world,not in terms of communism,but in terms of freedom for your neighbours ,and that man will live for his fellow man.

They both have good records.Look up their quotes,I only wrote them from memory.

It's interesting we are living all this,isn't it? Who could have guessed it? If you told me 10  years ago that Russia's leader will be the leader of the free world and the resistance movement,I would have laughed in your face.

francis scott falseflag's picture

This coming Yom Kippur may be the last one if the Jewish Messiah is here directing

tornados and hurricanes and moving the market so high that it can only come down

with a thud.

 

Put on some sack cloth and ashes in your hair (if you have any) and fast twice

on the High Holy Days.  You won't be hungry just a little weepy. 

pitz's picture

Yeah because they've invested so heavily.  Chinese consumers need to take over, actually consuming the output of those investments rather than shipping it all to the USA.

Yen Cross's picture

Yuan is pegged to $usd, so that means $usd spikes much higher.

pitz's picture

Doubtful that they'd be able to pull the USD$ up fast enough.  The peg will be broken.  What a disaster for US consumers.

The challenge in China will be to build enough Disneylands to keep internal consumption high enough to keep the producers from crashing with a much higher Yuan. 

HRH Feant2's picture

I have said this before, it is a race to the bottom between China and the US. Who hits bottom first? No idea. I hope it's China but it could be the US that goes tits up first.

pitz's picture

A race to the bottom?  Maybe for the US, but China has poured trillions into building a solid and robust base of domestic production.  Not a chance that China will lose here compared to the US which has spent the past 20-30 years fighting a bunch of useless wars and letting its production decay away. 

Yen Cross's picture

 LOL - Robust domestic production? Did you graduate from the UoB? University of Bejing?

  What's your address, so I can send you some facemasks for the smog.

Yen Cross's picture

You're delusional! I was just joking with you, and it went right over the top of your ZIKA head.

  The PBoC is playing "rope-A-dope" just like the fed. It doesn't matter how much China has in reserves, because they're so deep in debt to themselves, and their corrupt, structurally broken lending mechanisms.

  How long do you thenk CHIBOR can keep the REPO ponzi going? How long do you think the PBoC can limit the selling of Chinese equities, or capital outflows?

 Someone a day or so said China has no external debt, and I laughed.  China has massive external debt, based on the very structure of it's communist economy.

 China has to peg it's currency to external sources in order to give it any value, while at the same time refuses to allow external markets to provide and price the cost of liquidity.

  Liquidity is always available, for a PRICE!~

 

pitz's picture

There are no capital outflows, and Chinese equities are not being sold.  China has massive external debt "based on the very structure of its communist economy", really?  That's nonsensical.  China's peg to the USD$ suppresses the value of the Yuan, but as the Yuan surges, it will be very difficult to maintain that peg.  The Yuan is incredibly valuable as it allows the owner of Yuan to purchase goods from China. 

China doesn't want its Yuan offshore as such would just strengthen the currency even more, and threaten their lower-than-market pegging of the Yuan to the USD$.  But at some point, its unavoidable.  The USD$ will collapse when the Yuan/USD$ peg is finally undone.

Yen Cross's picture

Good lord you are such a snowflake rookie!  I'm not even going to waste my time educating you.

 Keep buying those yuan snowflake.

yogibear's picture

Hey Kyle, 

LOL, the central banksters keep raping you.

Keep wishing, maybe it will happen some day.

new game's picture

ps. kyle, you can't print money. hope it works for ya-(seriouslY)...

SuperRay's picture

He thinks there is integrity somewhere in the world.  so cute.

Vlad the Inhaler's picture

Exactly.  Central banks (can print money) vs Kyle Bass (can't print money).  Place your bets.

 

 

political_proxy's picture

If China was so concerned about their massive bubble, they would pull a play from the US book of saving the tanking economy: MOAR war.

pitz's picture

China's run by a bunch of engineers who are keenly aware of the broken window fallacy. 

Wild Theories's picture

that's a shit arguement, engineers understand the economy about as much as accountants understand hydraulics

grasha87's picture

I have a solution to the problem of the monetary system based on debt which cause recessions. It's called the wallark, and is a currency based on Say's law: https://bunky1787.wordpress.com/2017/09/06/the-wallark-neo-scrip/

MaxThrust's picture

I tried to read this article but it was just too deep and I was not sure what the outcome was going to be.

Yen Cross's picture

  Totally agree!  Chinas NPL issues are really getting out of control.

Bay of Pigs's picture

I never hear anyone talk about the near worthless $4T balance sheet sitting at the FED since 2009. Question is, why?

Yen Cross's picture

 You and I do BoP. That's because it's a giant fucking slush fund for foreign Central Banks and market makers to borrow from, and make fake money off excess reserves.

   I never hear anyone talking about the ECB balance sheet approaching $5T?

   I'll bet the PBoC balance sheet is the dollar equivalent of $8b, based on their dbt/gdp, and actual stated debt of almost $32trillion.

Bay of Pigs's picture

Indeed. Massive debt everywhere as far as the eye can see.

It's madness, that's for sure.

political_proxy's picture

Good thing the sheeple are provided the free reality blocking sunglasses.

38BWD22's picture

 

 

Yen and Bay

I always appreciate the trenchant comments from you both.

Simplifiedfrisbee's picture

And it's all priced in dollars. Everyone is overlooking basic market fundamentals. When the US dollar crashes then the all debt is extinguished. It's then becomes who has the resources, infrastructure, and political structure to promote economic growth for the wealthy. China fits the bill easily.

Darth Rayne's picture

That four trillion is holding off a pension crisis which would quickly escalate to a global financial reset.
http://davidwatkinson.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/pension-crisis-what-pension...
Globally, I think we are closer to fifteen trillion (bank credits)

Doom Porn Star's picture

 

Compare the relative leverage ratios of the US and Chinese systems.

Compare the relative capital flows.

Compare the relative scope and scale and selection of CB/.GOV interventions.

Compare the propertion of global trade conducted in USD vs CNY.

veritas semper vinces's picture

How about the 600 Bil trade deficit every year? Let's see how we close that gap after the introduction of future oil contracts in yuan,backed by gold(gold trade notes).

 

oak's picture

are you shorting cny?

monk27's picture

You mean "Bullshit" ! I'm getting really tired listening to KB playing taps (for several years in a row, now) for the Chinese economy, while the American one is still deep into dumpster... On the other hand, it might be the only chance America has left to catch up with China, at least in what regards manufacturing real stuff... :)

Lt. Frank Drebin's picture

Was being sarcastic, but totally agree. I travel globally pretty much continuously for buisness, and it is shit everywhere. Only real way out I see from history, and I litterally cannot believe I am saying this <er, writingthis>, is war. 

evokanivo's picture

what is helpful about war (non-sarc question)? debt jubilee? lower population resulting in more resources per capita? investment in R&D because we're on a war footing? most of these can in theory be accomplished without war.