The Catalan Chain Reaction

Tyler Durden's picture

Authored by Andrew Korybko via Oriental Review,

Catalonia’s drive for “independence” has unleashed a chain reaction of viral social media support that’s frighteningly resurrected civil war-era rhetoric, but the most dangerous consequences of this domino effect are yet to come if the separatists are ultimately successful in their quest.

Catalans rally for independence

The Nostalgia Narrative

The Catalan “independence” cause has taken the world by storm, thrown into the global spotlight by the heavily publicized referendum earlier this week and Madrid’s forceful response to this unconstitutional measure. Supporters all across the world have been energized by the recent events and have taken to describing them in civil war-era terms as a battle between “democracy” and “fascism”. Furthermore, they also accuse the Rajoy government of being “Francoists”, as they do the country’s post-Franco 1978 Constitution which returned Catalonia’s autonomy in an even more robust way than before and even bestowed this privilege to the rest of the country as well.

Although it can be safely presumed that Spain naturally retained some of the “Francoist” members of its permanent military, intelligence, and diplomatic bureaucracies (“deep state”) after the death of their movement’s eponymous leader, it’s an exaggeration to refer to the constitution and the present government as “Francoists” in the sense of what the term stereotypically implies. Rather, the improper use of such polarizing civil war-era terms demonstrates that the separatists are trying to capitalize on the revolutionary nostalgia that their domestic and foreign supporters have for reliving the 1936-1939 anarcho-communist experiment via a simulacrum, one which plays out differently depending on their audience.

Two Simulacra

As it relates to the Catalans themselves, this is meant to force them into the false binary choice between “standing with their ancestors against fascism” or “betraying their motherland for the Francoists”. Concerning the foreign supporters of the Catalan separatists, they’re supposed to get riled up and vent their hatred against Madrid and impassioned support for Barcelona all throughout social media, picking up on the cue that they should inaccurately compare modern-day Madrid to post-Maidan Kiev in making the Alt-Media argument that Catalonia has as much of a right to “independence” as Crimea does to its reunification with Russia.

This is a false equivocation, the full debunking of which isn’t the focus of this article however, as it’s important enough in this context to draw attention to the polemical chain reaction that’s being spun by the separatists and their supporters in crafting a self-interested narrative for serving their cause. There are many well-intentioned individuals who are standing behind Barcelona, so it’s not at all to infer that most of them don’t sincerely believe in this interpretation of events, but the point here is just to highlight how Catalonia’s “independence” crusade is exploiting historical memory and revolutionary nostalgia in order to advance its organizers’ argument that the region needs to split from Spain.

Spanish Scenarios

Centralized Crackdown:

While most people might be led to think that the Catalan Crisis is solely between Barcelona and Madrid, the fact is that it actually involves all of Spain and is poised to have geopolitical reverberations throughout the entirety of Europe. Concerning the politically unstable Iberian country, Catalonia’s separatist campaign already crossed the Rubicon of no return after the referendum and Madrid’s reaction to it, so there’s no going back to the previous status quo. This means that only three scenarios are probable: a centralized crackdown, Identity Federalism, and separatism. The first one could see the state implement Article 155 of the constitution in temporarily imposing direct rule over the region, though with the expected consequence being that it might catalyze a low-scale civil war if the Catalans resort to terrorist-insurgent tactics to resist.

Identity Federalism:

The next scenario is Identity Federalism, which would require the revocation or reform of Article 145 in devolving the centralized state into a federation or confederation of regions, each of which could theoretically function as quasi-independent statelets with their own economic, military, and foreign policies. Essentially, this would be the transplantation of the Bosnian model onto Spain, albeit with added privileges given to each constituent member. As with the centralized crackdown scenario, this is likely to lead to violence, and would probably only occur as a “compromise solution” to any prolonged conflict. Madrid does not want to lose control of the country and see the Iberian Peninsula in southwestern Europe “Balkanized” like its namesake counterpart in Southeastern Europe, which is why this outcome probably wouldn’t ever happen in peacetime.

Secessionism:

Finally, the last possibility for how the Catalan Crisis could play out is that the restive region becomes “independent” from Spain and is recognized by at least one country or more, which in all likelihood might end up being some of the Baltic and/or Balkan states before anyone else. Spain wouldn’t be able to survive in its present administrative-political format with the loss of roughly 20% of its GDP, so the rump state would either have to be radically reformed, undergo a “stabilizing” military coup, or fully collapse in a collection of “countries” just like the former Yugoslavia did a generation ago. As for Catalonia, it could become a base for foreign (NATO/Western/American) intervention into what might then descend into a multisided civil war. A weakened Spain or its remnants also wouldn’t be able to defend from an African-originating “Weapons of Mass Migration” tidal wave into Europe, either.

Geopolitical Chain Reactions

Forecasting is never an exact science, but it is indeed an art, and with that being said, there’s no guarantee that any of the aforementioned scenarios will play out, though if they do, they’ll inevitably have very serious geopolitical ramifications which could end up sparking a chain reaction throughout the region and beyond. The centralized crackdown might lead to a civil war that could either be contained to Catalonia or come to engulf other traditionally sovereign-minded areas such as Basque Country or Galicia too, to say nothing of the rest of the country in general. That said, and accepting that the consequences would inevitably spread to at least Portugal and France as well with time, this sequence of events isn’t what’s the most continentally explosive, as it’s the scenarios of Identity Federalism and “independence” that are the most dangerous.

The “Catalan Countries”:

Before going any further, both of these would guarantee that the Catalan Crisis becomes an existential one for Spain. The nominal Kingdom can’t devolve into a federation without changing the constitution, and even if this unlikely event were to happen, then Catalonia might seek to rearrange the country’s internal boundaries in a nationalist bid to gobble up the territory that its most jingoistic supporters claim as constituting the “Catalan countries”. This ultra-extreme concept holds that the modern-day borders of Catalonia don’t represent the historic geo-cultural space of the Catalan people, so they therefore need to be expanded to include all or some of the Spanish regions of Aragon, the Balearic Islands, and Valencia, as well as the country of Andorra and the French department of Pyrénées-Orientales (also known as “Roussillon” or “Northern/French Catalonia”).

Most of the people in these areas don’t want to be part of a “Greater Catalonia”, but the hyper-nationalists in charge of the Identity Federalized or “independent” state might resort to subterfuge or force in pressing their claims, even if they don’t do so right away. The concept of the “Catalan countries” is therefore a very dangerous one because it means that the Catalonia issue will inevitably have pronounced internal geopolitical consequences for Spain and also possibly even France as well if the separatists in control of Barcelona right now eventually get their way. Again, the Identity Federalism scenario would likely only result from a war brought about by a centralized crackdown, and would represent a (temporary) “compromise solution” to outright separatism, though with the latent dangers that would come from the latter with time.

Regional Copycats:

European regions allegedly seeking independence from the host states.

Whether it’s Identity Federalism or separatism, either of these outcomes could encourage regional copycats all throughout the EU. The UK “Independent” published a very misleading map just the other day claiming to have pinpointed all of the other Catalan-like political movements in Europe, obviously inferring that they could be next if the Barcelonan separatists are successful. The salient point being made here isn’t that each and every one of them will rise up in Color Revolution-esque fervor just like the Catalans did, but that some of them will undoubtedly be inspired to push forth with their agenda in fracturing their home countries and contributing to the “regionalization of Europe”. Other than the Spanish examples mentioned in the map, this could also see a chain reaction occurring in Scotland, Northern Italy, Germany’s Bavaria, and maybe even parts of France too.

The Hungarian minority that’s been living outside of their nation-state ever since the 1920 Treaty of Trianon might agitate for reunification with their homeland, which could destabilize the politically tenuous situation in Central Europe and the Balkans. It could also make Prime Minister Orban, if he’s still serving by that time, an easy target for liberal-leftist Mainstream Media attacks that he’s the “New Hitler” for wanting to reunify with his compatriots abroad. All that these regional copycats would have to do, regardless of the validity behind their claims and socio-political movements, is to organize highly publicized unconstitutional referenda in order to provoke the state into a forceful response that could in turn “legitimize” a Color Revolution in the said peripheral region. The result doesn’t necessarily have to be separatism, but Identity Federalism, as this end is essentially the same in the structural sense.

“Euro-Federalism”:

The devolution of once-unified states into identity-“federalized” ones de-facto internally partitioned along ethno-regional lines would interestingly promote the cause of “Euro-Federalism” that Gearóid Ó Colmáin described in his latest article titled “Catalan ‘independence’: a tool of capital against labour”. His work builds upon the 1992 proposal by billionaire Europhile Freddy Heineken to “federalize” Europe along regional lines, which was likely the unstated inspiration behind Belgian bureaucrat-academic Luk Van Langenhove’s 2008 policy suggestion urging “Power To The Regions, But Not Yet Farewell To The Nation State”. The bigger picture here is quintessentially one of divide and rule, albeit modified for the EU’s post-Brexit conditions.

The author himself spoke about this in a different context in his summer 2016 article for The Duran about the “Post-Brexit EU: Between Regional Breakdown and Full-Blown Dictatorship”, in which it was postulated that the bloc might devolve into regionally focused state-driven organizations in the future. What’s happening instead is that Brussels might be preparing for a further devolution beyond the member states themselves and to the individual regions within (and sometimes, even between) them. This represents a modification of what the author wrote in his earlier work titled “Identity Federalism: From “E Pluribus Unum” To “E Unum Pluribus”, which appears at this moment to have incorrectly concluded that the EU wouldn’t go forward with this scenario out of fear that it could invite more “Weapons of Mass Migration” from the Global South (in the Spanish case, from Northern and Western Africa), as well as create geostrategic opportunities for Russia and China.

 Standing corrected with the wisdom of hindsight and in light of recent events, especially the insight that the author acquired through his research on Civilizational Aggression, it now seems as though the very same scenario of the EU collapsing into a constellation of regional entities is being partially experimented with by none other than  Brussels itself as the ultimate divide-and-rule stratagem for controlling the bloc in the post-Brexit era. This doesn’t mean that the process will be taken to its extreme –so long as it’s still “controllable” – but just that the EU does indeed seem to be tinkering with this as part of its phased adaptive approach to the emerging Multipolar World Order.

Concluding Thoughts

Catalonia is globally significant because of the chain reaction that its separatists have started in furthering the scenario of a “controlled” devolution-collapse of the EU’s existing member-state order into a more “flexible” hybrid one of politically equal national and regional entities. If Catalonia serves as a successful example, whether in the Identity Federalized or separatist instances, then it could have a powerful demonstration effect elsewhere in the EU by encouraging other copycat movements, thereby redirecting what might have otherwise been semi-multipolar forces into the false allure of “independence” within a de-facto strengthened EU and even NATO.

This is very possible because the Catalan precedent would clearly indicate that no EU member state’s territorial integrity and constitution are safe from the globalist desires of a separatist Color Revolutionary and possibly even Hybrid War vanguard, thereby dealing a heavy blow to the right-wing “sovereignists” (publicly smeared as “nationalists” in the Mainstream Media) who are coming to the fore of European politics nowadays. After all, the so-called “Catalan Question” was supposed to have been settled by the 1978 Constitution that gave the region an even more robust autonomy than it had ever enjoyed before in history, so if this can be reversed, then Pandora’s Box has truly been reopened all across the EU.

Another point to dwell upon is the viralness with which the Catalan separatist cause spread through global Mainstream and Alternative Medias, as this provides crucial insight into how other movements might attain such tremendous soft power in such a short time in the future. It helps if they’re tourist destinations where lots of foreigners have visited and acquired an affinity for the local culture and environs, as well as if there’s a civil war- or other conflict-era history (no matter how distant, decontextualized, and/or irrelevant to the present) that could be spun to “legitimize” the said “federalist”-separatist cause.

Altogether, the Catalan case study in all of its dimensions is very instructive in demonstrating how the declining Unipolar World Order is seeking to adapt to multipolarity, and its state of affairs at any given time provides a decent barometer for gauging the dynamics of this process.

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Slack Jack's picture

Don't be fooled into violence and war.

This article outlines roughly how people were fooled into the second world war:

Proof that Adolf Hitler was a double agent.

http://www.preearth.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1174

It seems pretty weird when you first read it, but its clearly true.

harrybrown's picture

I smell "Soros" all over this & his little agitators don't smell any better either.

Is it me or is Zerohedge slowley being over run with little commie agitators like the above....

Death to the Zionist Money Changers

Crazy Or Not's picture

I had that Soros thought about this (and similar more valid ones with "external players" in Kurdish State).
Any foresighted market player will benefit from unexpected change, and there's certainly been BT(F)D! opportunities in Spain/Eurozone consequent to events. Soros et all predators are opportunists to shifts, to status quo;  so will always be on the fringe/ or slap in the middle of any movement they can game. 

EDIT: US Revolution was not so different in this respect, France and Spain were players not to free the American people, but more as using the US as a proxy force in their own battle with England.... Yet it did not undermine the validity of the revolution - which simply sought allies where it found them???

Rapunzal's picture

Even though I'm happy for people achieving freedom from their overtaxing governments, I cannot lose the doubts that somewhat the TPTB are pushing the independence. They are playing behind the scenes. Even with Brexit I was happy, but I still believe they will use it eventually against the people. They will blame all the upcoming evil, wars and economic collapse on the people that chose freedom. So they will keep the crisis up until people are happy with slavery and neofeudalism again.

Dwardo's picture

You were happy with Brexit because now they have achieved freedom from taxation? 

tato1969's picture

I can only confirm that the map about Italy is measleading in many details even if the general picture is not so wrong.

Ghordius's picture

+1 agree. and those details shift, from year to year
example: "Lega Nord" has recently changed it's stance. less on separation, more on federalization of Italy's still quite centralistic state

Slack Jack's picture

I wonder if a similar map could be produced for the US.

With the various Indian tribes that want to be independent.

The French of Louisiana.

The Spanish of the south-west.

The Mormons and the Amish.

And, Texas and California, of course.

Tsipras the Great's picture

O Porto é uma nação!! Bibó Porto, carago!!

Diatom's picture

Tens que te perguntar quanta gente no ZH percebe português...

Provavelmente  a representação estatistica será da ordem dos 5 %...

O unico fator de divisão em Portugal é o confronto Porto/Benfica.

O esterco da com. soc. portuguesa trata de uniformizar a manada com novelas, bola, casa do putedo, Calcitrin 

para os reformados e Goucha&Ferreira Enchimento de Chouriços S.A...

Mas sem dúvida Bibó Porto!!

Ghordius's picture

excellent, very dense article. worth reading (and no, I disagree on more points that I could ever comment)

note, in this, the three broad movements: Independentists, Regionalists and Federalists

It's not the same people, and in every region they have different views on several things, but they have a kind of broad understanding of the direction they want to take (and differ in details)

fourth element in this: Anarchists. they push too in this general direction, but do not care to have an EU, setting them apart from the previous three

it's a generalization, note. but a handy one. my point: it's a huge number of very diverse groups involved

BobEore's picture

It is dense, it does attempt to cover multiple strands and levels of political debate, not altogether successfully...

but at the end of the day, it is a fervent expression of unchanged Statist(Eurasian variety)thinking applied to the European crucible. The kicker being...

"it’s an exaggeration to refer to the constitution and the present government as “Francoists” in the sense of what the term stereotypically implies. Rather, the improper use of such polarizing civil war-era terms demonstrates that the separatists are trying to capitalize on the revolutionary nostalgia that their domestic and foreign supporters have for reliving the 1936-1939 anarcho-communist experiment via a simulacrum, one which plays out differently depending on their audience"

wherein we see surface the inherent fear of the left and right factions of the $power of even the slightest intact memory of 1936-37... when for the SECOND time, a broad swathe of population rose up against COMMUNO-FASCIST entities and created a viable alternative and opposition to same.

The reason this scares the pants off of our modern inheritors of the Russian element is that the FIRST example of the repudiation of STATISM -RIGHT OR LEFTIST VARIETY - occurred in Ukrania 1917-21, when the black flag militias under leadership of Nestor Mahkno repeatedly crushed the legions of Red AND White Terror sent against them by Wall St.

So we get the usual snark remark about the reliving of the Anarchist experiment in Catalonia - an experiment crushed by the collusion of FRANCOIST AND COMMUNIST ideologues. No wonder the friendly and nostalgic tone to "our authors" presentation of the Spain he would like us to believe exists
unconnected to a troubled past. Surprise, surprise...

when "the State" in its' multifarious formats is challenged, the "Statists" group together in its' defense. Underneath all the dense rhetoric... that's what this piece is all about!
https://storify.com/SuaveBel/the-free-territory-or-the-wild-fields-a-stu...

buzzsaw99's picture

looking at it from afar i don't see any way spain lets barcelona go without a fight.  it seems like THE premium spot in all of spain.

harrybrown's picture

the evil zionist bastards have got even their own divide & conqure elements fighting each other, man against man, region against region.
as I said above I smell Soros, rothschild & Co, this whole breakup of countries is what they do, create the chaos, divide & conqure 
& then once all unity on either side is broken, move in using the Roman doctrine & take the spoils.
That was the plan in WW2, let the west fight to exhuastion & then the zionist controlled soviets & zionist controlled US, overun Europe... which is what happened.

Even General Patton said it "we defeated the wrong enemy" & tried to warn others in 1945 but was "bumped off" quickly to prevent ths facts getting out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv4cO61NIKE&list=PLo0ThsDnveH5nv5TNviBrGTX9P6IrYfIe&index=25

be it spain, Britain, Syria or the US... same tribe, same tactics, don't say you werent warned.

Crazy Or Not's picture

The EU has been for much of its duration been a service support industry to US Hedgemon. Somewhat lazily existing under the umbrella of protection provided by the US. Whenever it has had any delusions of arriving into parity it is quickly brought to book by economic shock, terror or shifting alliances and their subsequent crisis (the hand on the other end of that screwdriver likely somewhere in Virginia).

Germany grew up in post WWII as a toothless service supplier, tech & Auto's and wasn't until 1962 that it started to look at the consequences of it's lack of military presence. It's been a long road with much political resistance. But possibly Merkel's permission of mass migration will pave the way for its own Partiot Act moment. Ger. is certainly tooling up as a H&K small arns supplier, and larger hardware seller While arms exports may have recently fallen, a comprehensive upgrading of equipment has been underway in the home market. A pan European German (with some French support) military presence is long in the works. No Empire has ever existed without a strong military of its own. As Catalonia, Europe grows impatient of being vassel to US force - and US political direction. IDK if EU can break free of NATO in the foreseeable, a Quazi-NATO in-out dance is likely for some time to come. (Similar to EU's  yes-but-no commitments to Afgh/Iraq/Libya ventures.) if EU is ever to stand on its own - a more centralized forceful approach will be in the works. What is clear is a change of thinking is in progress and it's whole objectives are yet to become public.

Ghordius's picture

looking from afar, the premium spot of the US is... New Orleans

with the biggest navigable river system of the world, from the Appalachians to the Rockies, more shipping river miles then the whole rest of the world, all in one vast "region"

the prime industrial spot on the planet, potentially, particularly if energy would become more scarce. just a thought, mind, on geography's role taken alone

Silversides's picture

That was meant for slick jack btw

Don Diego's picture

Ok, a more balanced article. The author is better informed than Mish and the other clowns that have articles in ZH about this issue. Still, the likelihood of Catalan independence is close to zero.

Unfortunately, a Spanish tribunal has forbidden the next session of the Catalan parliament, when they said they would declare independence. I said "unfortunately" as this gives an excuse for the Catalibans to buy time because it was clear that on Monday they would not announce independence and the infighting would start. Hopefully the Catalibans will still go ahead and give Madrid the green light for the real crackdown. But I am afraid there will be no quorum, and many representatives will be sick on Monday.

On other news, carmaker Seat and the 100K jobs it represents considers moving out of Catalonia. Check mate.

Ghordius's picture

yes. but eventually Don Felipe might have to address you, too

and urge you to say something nice every day about your co-patriots, or something in this direction. A Nation is like a family. You can't call your cousin a "Crazy, Deluded Taliban-like Idiot" only and expect him to feel bonded to you by that

embrace somehow your Cousin. he is a Spaniard, too, isn't he? That's key to your point, isn't it? otherwise you lose, eventually. otherwise you are holding on territory and not... people

Don Diego's picture

I am careful with the distinction, for me Catalibans are just the independentists, the Catalans are the independentists and non independentists alike.

Ghordius's picture

excellent reply

so it's 2 million beloved Cousins and Co-Spaniards, a minority in Spain, a proud country that prides itself on it's wonderful minorities, including their wonderful cultures, languages, autonomous regions...

...diversity under one flag, one constitution and one king

just trying to describe the country you can hold on, imo, in the long run

Don Diego's picture

if you check the pro-Spain demonstrations, you see the Catalan flag (the official one without the masonic star and triangle), with an over 1000 year history co-exists with the Spanish flag. However, the Catalibans will attack you if they see you with a Spanish flag. The funny thing is that colors of the current Spanish flag come from the old kingdom of Naples, which comes at its turn from the Aragonese (and Catalan flag).

I remembered that back in the 80s, in my teens, I tore off at night a Catalan flag on a mast located in the middle of a teenage summer camp in Asturias. I regret very much that stupid action that no doubt has contributed to create in a few people some resentment.I wish I could go back in time.

In any case, today, most Spaniards have accepted the Catalan language and symbols and have no problem with that.

Crazy Or Not's picture

The frustration of Catalonia is that Castillion is happy to take Catalan revenue but not return working respect for the system that sustains them or learn the lesson of hard graft. Seemingly content to bask in leisure with Bankia limitless credit cards. World beating corruption and cartel monopolies of influence, while at the same time reverting to retrogressive Hard Right Catholocism possibly stemming from Opus Dei cabals? ...whilst taking their cue's from a Unicorn ... or at least some other creature that belongs in a fairy tale. ;) 

Probably Catalonian independence will be stymied by Madrid/ EU ... it does not stop their greivances from being justifiable by an archaic regime that sits in the bottom of EU performance tables.

NOTE:

Appologies for the link in Spanish - but this information is hard to come by especially in English parts of the web.. (run your translator ;) )
http://www.publico.es/sociedad/74-rostros-influyentes-opus-dei.html

bombdog's picture

Checkmate my ass. People pursuing independence have to listen to this crap about big businesses leaving all the time. Scotland leaving UK, UK leaving EU... I hear this crap all the time, regardless of the rights and wrongs or the economics. You're also a bit reckless if you think a "real crackdown" will achieve anything, it won't.

BritBob's picture

What chance do the Catalans have when the Spanish won't even admit that they've lost Gibraltar?

From the top down: -

 

Spanish king uses the address of the UN demand to Great Britain return Gibraltar(RT 22 Sep, 2016 )

PM  Rajoy- Gibraltar "this is the such territory in Europe and that affects to our own integrity territorial", said the Mr Rajoy, saying that Britain had "ignored the mandate" of the Assembly General of the UN. (Daily Telegraph, 26 September 2013)

 

Foreign Minister Dastis: "The existence of a colony in Europe in the 21st century is an anachronism. We want to get back our territorial integrity. "This debate comes from the 18th century – it's a remnant of a bygone time. A matter of colonialism.'' (Daily Express 30 Sept 2017) He added Spain would never drop its claim over Gibraltar...

 

Effectively Ceded to Britain 3 times!

Gibraltar – Spanish Myths and Agreements (1 pg):

 

https://www.academia.edu/34608739/Gibraltar_Spanish_Myths_and_Agreements

Slack Jack's picture

"The Capture of Gibraltar by Anglo-Dutch forces of the Grand Alliance occurred between 1-3 August 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession."

Surely, the fact that Gibraltar was taken by force, indicates that by any just law, it should be returned. Of course, this doesn't mean that it will be.

bombdog's picture

You're not wrong in that sense, but to be fair with BritBob (I'm sure he will reply to you as he's absolutely mad about British territories) back in those days taking things by force was the norm. We can't make the world right again by going so far in the past, it's just stupid. I can however think of one or two places that were taken after WW2 that are much more pressing injustices than Gibraltar.

Sure it's odd that Gibraltar is British, but it's so long ago that nobody even gives half a fuck and it should be up to the people who live there now. It's a shame Spanish people might feel a little upset, but not one living soul can claim to be damaged by the fact of Gibraltar being British.

Ghordius's picture

Spain isn't upset about Gibraltar being British as such. that's a Brit media circus only

Spanish media harps on something different: businesses there exploiting it's special status... in the Spanish market

result: 96% of Gibraltarians voted "Remain the UK in the EU" to keep the current very special (inside the UK, note) arrangements

bombdog's picture

Yep, it's a funny old world.

BritBob's picture

I'm affraid you are wrong - both UK & Spanish politicians use Gibraltar for political points scoring :

From the top down: -

 

Spanish king uses the address of the UN demand to Great Britain return Gibraltar(RT 22 Sep, 2016 )

PM  Rajoy- Gibraltar "this is the such territory in Europe and that affects to our own integrity territorial", said the Mr Rajoy, saying that Britain had "ignored the mandate" of the Assembly General of the UN. (Daily Telegraph, 26 September 2013)

 

Foreign Minister Dastis: "The existence of a colony in Europe in the 21st century is an anachronism. We want to get back our territorial integrity. "This debate comes from the 18th century – it's a remnant of a bygone time. A matter of colonialism.'' (Daily Express 30 Sept 2017) He added Spain would never drop its claim over Gibralt

Ghordius's picture

yes, BritBob. that's the discussion between Spain and the UK, on the international stage

I was hinting at the direct discussion between Gibraltar and Spain. which is held in Spanish, a language both are able to use, mainly in the Spanish media with some direct Gibraltarian intervention, and among Spaniards

a discussion that is not heard much in the UK, if at all. particularly not on the "tabloids"

BritBob's picture

Conquest was legal back then. What would the world look like if all conquored terrotories were returned to their orginal owners. Post 1945 - that's different.

Octagon's picture

Seems Spain and Brussels have quite a problem on their hands.

Interesting days ahead.....

greenspanator's picture

Great to see seccessionist movements have multiplied since yesterday's post.

You are missing the Liberation Movement from Villarriba de Fuentelosmontes, but it's OK.

ZH ihas become a seccession porn website where geopolitical wankers crawl around.

ZorroHedge's picture

https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/10/05/catalunya/1507204713_891699.html

This are Catalans coming on the streets to protest against independence. Of course, zerohedge doesn't speak about this because it doesn't suit his agenda, which is breaking the EU. I don't like the EU either and I want to get out of it. But that doesn't mean you have to manipulate the facts. There is no majority in Catalunya for independence. The Catalan referendum was simply invalid and didn't reflect the true will of the people. You can't call a referendum in which only 40 % of the population voted a legal binding one. And then I don't speak about the way it was held and that nothing was properly inspected. Any referendum with a turnout less than 50 % is a worthless referendum. In case of splitting I think that turnout even has to be significantly higher than 50 %. More like 60-70 %. This is a percentage that is justified in case of very important matters and independence is very important.

highandwired's picture

If you really want to go down the path of discussing "voting", can you please point me to any western nation in which more than 50% of the voting population actually voted for the RULERS?  The whole idea of "voting" for your own dictator is absurd in it's own right.  Most of the "elected" government are illegitimate because in most cases, a minority voted for the rulers.  But that's exactly what "democrcy" is...Tyranny of the Majority(or minority in most cases)

THE DORK OF CORK's picture

I  repeat  :  the  agenda  of  the  monopoly  is  not  some  form  of  merrie  medievalism  which  I  would  prefer  but  the  return  of  the  16th  century  chaotic  capitalism  with  all  its  entropy flux  &  destructon

 

Don Diego's picture

So far 4 of the largest Catalan companies are moving, or will move, to the rest of  Spain. This makes sense, as you  do not want to lose your largest customer base. More will surely follow and they are making enquiries as we speak. As the Spaniards here tried to explain but few listened, the main reason why Catalonia is more prosperous than the rest of Spain is because of the large CAPTIVE Spanish market. The whole Spain invested in Catalonia because it is the closest to the Center of Europe. If these companies cannot have access to the Spanish market because obviously the Spanish customers will not be happy with the situation, then bye bye Catalan "prosperity".

Most Zhedgers believed the Cataliban lies, you have been fooled. Even the Cataliban believed them, if not it is impossible to understand the level of sheer stupidity.

highandwired's picture

Are you a butthurt Spaniard who doesn't realize that Spain, along with the rest of Europe is hopelessly BROKE?  Oh I guess you don't care about that, you only care about keeping as many slaves in your colony as possible, right?  We can't possible give any freedom to our tax slaves, now can we?

Don Diego's picture

LULZ. Please see my old posts here in ZH. I am all for a minimal state, low or no taxes, gun rights, sound money so spare me this please.

Spain owes 1 trillion Euros, when you have a debt this size, the one that should be worried is your creditor not you. And no, I do not agree with getting into debt, I am just analysing the problem as it is right now.

Also, most Catalans do not want independence. Of the ones that do, some were freshly imported and fast-tracked to naturalization (this will be felt more in a few years). Many others have been brainwashed by their TV and indoctrination system in the hate of Spain.

Hopefully, Spain will crackdown the rebellion and take over the indoctrination system so it becomes an education system with the right to decide to have your education in Spanish. Even better, the State should get out of the education system and let the parents organize themselves to create schools for their children, but here I am dreaming.

Finally, I am not butthurt, this is a great opportunity for Spain to crackdown hard on the Catalibans and send a warning message, they dug their own graves. 15-year sentences and then the King pardoning a portion of them every year should send the right message of strength and compassion.

asstrix's picture

Here's a link which gives a different view than the one which is mainstream. I posted it already but saw your comment only afterwards. Sorry for posting the link twice.

http://thesaker.is/maidan-in-spain-and-some-new-dog-whistles/

zimboe's picture

My Old Dad once told me" The Spanish are the cruelest race on Earth."

This might get messy indeed, especially if EU wants such secessionists to made an example of. Interesting times approach.

And speaking of ZH as secessionist porn, well, everyone likes porn.

Don Diego's picture

A couple of examples of that cruelty please. I will be happy to give you examples of others that have done much worse. I don't dispute the "cruel" part, I am just disputing the "-est" bit.

Don Diego's picture

Ok, I somehow I expected those examples, it is a pity you don't have the Inquisition too. The Inquisition executed 3000 pople in its three centuries of existence, much less than the over 100.000 victims of religious persecution in Western Europe in the sme period (most of them witches). So the Inquisition was not the "cruelest".

The Spanish civil War? Ok a couple hundred thousand executions from both sides. Terrible but there is much worse elsewhere in absolute and relative numbers. Little gratutious torture as well (more from the Red side though).

The treatment of the Amerindians? most of them died off due to the New World diseases and the social disruption of that high death rate. This was bound to happen as soon as the first Euroasians set foot in the New World. The surviving Amerindians were put to work, like in any other extractive colonial system. At least they got some nice cathedrals and universities. Do you find a lot of universities in former European colonies not destined for European mass settlement (Caribbean, Africa and such)? Also, there were many debates and laws passed to defend the Amerindians. The treatment was overall bad but not Mongol/Islamic/British/Belgian bad.

Give Me Some Truth's picture

If the majority of people in a state want to voluntarily leave a union and be independent they should be able to do so. Is this not the definition of freedom and democracy? The opposite position is that such people are NOT FREE to leave an unpopular central government. You can NEVER break-up or break-away. Once married, you cannot divorce. Once hired, you cannot leave the company. As it were: You can check in but you can never leave. It's telling - and actually frightening - to see how many people subscribe to this view.

Don Diego's picture

your premise is invalid, freedom and democracy do not go together. Yo cannot have both at the same time as the minority in a democracy cannot do as they wish. Also, there are no nation-states in the world that are democracies (nor are there nation states that are dictatorsips). All nation states are oligarchies in one degree or the other as no established power will voluntarily abandon power (as in a "democracy") and nobody rules alone (as in a "dictatorship").

In my personal case, I will never accept to the will of the majority unless the majority has the force or the threat of the use of force...so in practice I submit.