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Alasdair Macleod: All Roads In Europe Lead To Gold

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Submitted by Chris Martenson

Alasdair Macleod: All Roads In Europe Lead To Gold

This week we bring back Alasdair Macleod, publisher of Finance and, because, as he puts it "every horror that we discussed last time we spoke is coming about". Especially scary since our previous conversation with him was less than three weeks ago...

Today's interview continues building on his excellent synopsis from last month that detailed the origins of the Eurozone crisis. The fundamental shortcomings warned of at the Euro's creation in 1997, combined with the excessive sovereign debts run up since then, have finally expressed themselves at a scale too large to be contained any longer.

Today, Alasdair details in-depth the huge and serious challenges facing Greece and the major Eurozone countries, and the likely impacts of the fast-dwindling options left remaining.

He sees no happy ending to this story, no outcome in which serious pain and permanent behavior change can be avoided. And for those looking for shelter from the unfolding economic storm, he sees few options besides the precious metals (which he believes are severely under priced at the moment): 


The Greek situation is entirely predictable: when you force enormous pressures on an economy and try and raise taxes from the private sector -- a private sector which isn’t used to paying taxes because usually they find away around it -- you start cutting pensions, you start cutting this, cutting that, and the people revolt. They haven’t a clue what they are doing, but we get the revolt nonetheless. It looks like nobody there can form a government; and it looks like there will be another election probably in June. That won’t resolve anything unless by some miracle, some sense gets knocked into people’s heads.


The other thing, which nobody has mentioned, is that there are about 90 billion dollars in derivative contracts involved in the Greek economy. This is not just government, but also local governments and towns and cities and all the rest of it. The counterparties to this $90 billion must be getting a bit worried about that, I would think because that looks as if it will default.


The people who have been most active in getting these derivative contracts going over time have been people like Deutsche Bank, Goldman Sachs and I suppose JP Morgan -- so you can see the problems aren’t just limited to the government and some unfortunate Greek citizens who are caught in the middle of this.


We are looking at potentially up to ninety billion dollars worth of derivatives which one side of those transactions is going to default. One side: it is not a balanced figure is it? I don’t know that it is necessarily as bad as that, but it is a problem that needs to be dealt with, addressed and contained. I think what they have to do as much as possible, is to try to work for a sensible outcome in this, which probably will involve Greece leaving the Eurozone, but maybe obtaining help from the ECB to set up a currency board. The reason I say that is that I think for Greece to return to the drachma would be complete destruction. You would have a situation where people who owe money in Euros would still owe money in Euros. If the Greek government tried to change that by law, for starts, that could only apply to loans taken out in Euros in Greece; whereas a lot of these have been taken out in Euros elsewhere in the European Union. In any event, I think if they tried to do a law on this, it would be a retroactive, which would be open to legal challenge.


Meanwhile, if you have deposits in a Greek bank, you can be sure the Greek government would say we are going to re-designate those into New Drachmas, which would impoverish the depositors. When it comes to trade, I think everybody would just stay well clear. To go back to a New Drachma, I think is the most destructive path Greece can have. Now, they could do that on the basis that, if the European Union wanted to make an example of Greece, then this is a way in which they could just let them go hang. The importance of that would be that the situation for Greece should be so bad that no other member of the Eurozone would contemplate leaving the Eurozone. That is a possibility. But I think that is less likely than coming to terms in such a way to give Greece an exit. But if they do get an exit, again, they’ve got to have an exit in such a way that it hurts enough and anybody else who wants to take that exit would see, well it is actually probably more painful than staying where we are. It is a very difficult balance to achieve.


The people who will do this, I don’t believe are the politicians. It would have to be the sensible people in the ECB and perhaps some of the more backroom boys who could put together some sort of face-saving mechanism without this becoming too much of a political hot potato. It is very, very tricky, it really is, and quite honestly, the way political governance has been going in Europe, the chances of them getting some sort of orderly withdraw in the interest of continuing relationships, et cetera, I think are actually probably slim. That is what we are up against: this is not easy. There is no precedence for this at all and I know that lots and lots of people are saying it has got to return to the Drachma; I just think that a New Drachma would collapse almost immediately. I think that a currency board in the Euro is actually a more sensible result given where we are.  


France is a mess. They have outstanding debt of 1.3 Trillion Euros, something like that. Their debt/GDP is around about 85-90% going on a hundred quite rapidly. That is a very liquid and nasty situation. Unemployment is running close to ten percent.


It is almost impossible to employ anyone in France because the taxes are so high. Do you know the total tax that you pay as an employer, more than doubles the salary that you pay an individual? This is absolute craziness, but it is been like that in France forever and a day. The result is an awful lot of the market is black market.

 Spain & Italy

Spain is a worse situation. Government debt alone is just under a trillion. A trillion dollars equivalent, I should say, and that is a lot of money. That is a lot of money. Italy is over two trillion dollars. That really is a very, very big one, so this contagion must not be allowed to happen. 


Their economy is performing reasonably well, but it is not performing well because they are doing well for Europe; they are doing well because they are selling the most cars, machine tools and everything else to China, to Brazil, to Russia. Africa’s a great growth area. Europe, as far as Germany is concerned is dead. Which of course brings us on another question; that is why should Germany continue to support all these bust Europeans? There is a sort of conscience if you like about the last two world wars, but there is going to come a point where that wears pretty thin I would have thought. The trouble is that it is all very well, everyone turning around and saying, Germany has to help. Actually, what they are saying is that Germany’s citizens should give up their savings, their hard won savings to rescue a project, which is obviously dead or deceased. I think Germany really should bust out as soon as possible and I am sure that there are an increasing number of businessmen and bankers in Germany who are beginning to feel that way. 

On Gold

People who have gold or silver, I think actually had a very rough ride over the last couple of months. A lot of them are wondering what on Earth is going on because every time you get good news, gold seems to rally along with equities, but every time there’s bad news and gold actually should be giving you some protection, it goes down the swanny.


I think the problem there is that the whole system is run by people who went to college and were taught keynesian economics. In my day, when I first went into the stock market and I enjoyed that first bull market in gold when it went from thirty-five bucks to eight-fifty, the traders and investment managers were all practical people. They all cut their teeth, all learned their trade the hard way. Some of them had degrees in college, but generally it would have been something like classics or history or something like that. If they got a degree in economics, they probably would have left because they never would have understood it in those days. But now it has changed. Everybody who is employed has a degree and if they are anything to do with investment strategy, or the investment business, it is all economics degrees. So they have been brainwashed in the keynesian thing. This sort of neoclassical approach where gold is yesterday’s story, paper money is the future. They really do believe it and it is the opinions of these people who drive the markets in the short term.

The result is that gold and silver have become very, very seriously mispriced. I don’t think I have seen a stretch like this as I can remember; by stretch, the difference between perhaps where it should be. We must be careful not to tell the market what the price should be, but it is so underpriced at a time of enormous systemic stress, that I think when gold and silver snap back into a more sensible, logical valuation relationship with the markets, the move actually could be very, very sharp and quite large. If gold ran up through the $2,000 level very quickly, which I think is a very strong possibility, because it is been held down so much, that could bring other problems. The central banks, who might have sold gold and not told us about it will find that they are embarrassed. I think also the bullion banks in London who operate a fractional reserve system with gold, exactly the same way as to do with any paper currency, will be hurt very, very badly on the run. Any shorts in the futures market equally could be hurt very, very badly. We have a situation, where there is a potential for a huge run in gold and I personally wouldn’t be surprised to see it.  

Click the play button below to listen to Chris' interview with Alasdair Macleod (48m:07s):

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Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:04 | 2444124 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Follow the yellow brick road...



Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:16 | 2444169 Colombian Gringo
Colombian Gringo's picture

right through the ruins of euro....

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 23:07 | 2444307 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

Pumping gold since the 70's have anything from Joe Granville?

To his credit, after 40yrs of the same song and dance he has it down pat.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 23:42 | 2444375 markmotive
markmotive's picture

Yeah, I got gold.

But IMHO, all roads in europe lead to a new era of European conflict

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 00:10 | 2444409 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



All dogs in Argentina lead to US Dollars.

Government uses canines to track down dwindling stock of US dollars now being smuggled to Uruguay.



In Argentina, the government is using dogs to sniff out US dollars.  


As part of a crackdown on tax evasion, money laundering and cash being sent overseas, restrictions are being imposed on foreign currencies, especially the US dollar. 


Those restrictions have made the dollar, seen as a refuge from double-digit inflation for many Argentine people, increasingly difficult to find on the streets of the capital.


Those who do possess the US currency are smuggling millions into banks in neighbouring Uruguay.


In an effort to curb that capital flight, the government of Cristina Kirchner, the Argentine president, has employed dogs to sniff out the currency.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 01:32 | 2444504 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Eurozone = Poweder Keg

Greece = Spark

Spain = Fuse

Italy+GB = Da Bomb

USA = Tsar Bomba

BRICS = Wet Powder

Gold = Massive Head Fake

Saviour Investment Play = ?



Sun, 05/20/2012 - 08:59 | 2444869 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Crisis? What crisis?


I sold all my gold last week and bought shares of JPM.....what could possibly go wrong?


Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:09 | 2444882 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

Shouldn't you change your ZH name to GetZeeJPM, then?

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:19 | 2444894 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Crap.....I totally forgot the /sarc.


Thank you Maximus!

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 10:47 | 2445037 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Aaaand he hit the nail on the head.

Germany must leave the Euro first, and the others will follow. If it does, the Euro and all debt denomonated it it will fall in new D'marks thereby wiping out the German target 2 liability and reducing Germany's obligations in euros..

Spain Italy, France and Greece will then be able to adopt their own currencies without the commensurate bankrupting drop against the euro.

Rinse, repeat...

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 17:14 | 2445774 PivotalTrades
PivotalTrades's picture

How is that any different....Germany leaves and the Euro drops to where the Drachma and Lira would be.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 23:39 | 2446387 jez
jez's picture

What a mistake! You bought JPM instead of Facebook?

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 14:22 | 2445429 _underscore
_underscore's picture

You're apparently quite sanguine about any possible effects on the BRICS from a EURO catasrophe, ORI. Haven't you realised that the BRICS will sink like gold in a boating accident if that neat little euqation plays out?

No, thought not. For all the unpleasant possibilities extant in the Euro/USA/UK following a binge of debt fuelled consumption, at least mechanisms & institutions (with their associated checks & balances) exist to mitigate the worst effects,to some extent. I really wouldn't like to be in China/Russia/India when the West stops buying all the crap it does.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:13 | 2444885 Manthong
Manthong's picture

What does gold and silver smell like?


Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:22 | 2444898 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Gold....nothing. Silver can get pretty stanky.....pretty much like a roll of fiat that's been stuck under a matress for a few years.


Anything else you want to know?


Sun, 05/20/2012 - 14:41 | 2445468 fockewulf190
fockewulf190's picture

I love the smell of gold and silver in the smells like victory...over the Morgue.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:33 | 2444917 ATM
ATM's picture

Gold don't stink.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 15:46 | 2445614 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

Can their dogs smell gold too?  

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 01:51 | 2444520 Nussi34
Nussi34's picture

The Euro brings peace and wealth to Europe!

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:00 | 2444871 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture




Please put that Euro back in your pocket.....the light is blinding me.


Sun, 05/20/2012 - 02:01 | 2444532 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

Alasdair don't quit your day job. There are plenty of reasons one could use to validate the ownership of metals however reading and listening it sounds more like its his second week reading zerohedge, pieced together information he gleamed from arguments he probably lost, and gave a couple guys handjobs to get airtime. His statement about he can't remember another time like this. Really? So basically he is saying that when silver was still somewhat recently at 10$ and ounce and gold at 600$ he was trying to hustle in the stock markets and one of his trader buddies forwarded a couple youtube videos ie silver bears, history of money/banking, etc and figured he would jump on the bandwagon. This site surely can find someone other than this guy to promote metals. I understand since Marc Farber reversed his outlook on gold and silver recently you guys have been strapped but come on. In fact I'd be more than happy to write an article for ya guys if ya just want someone to make a weekly case to buy metals. I would even happily accept payment for said writing in bullion, I'd dump it and hold the cash for the current time being but hey I don't like to lose money.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 03:10 | 2444636 zebrasquid
zebrasquid's picture

Faber (not Farber) has hardly reversed his outlook on gold. Seems like you're the amateur with the half-baked opinion.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 03:34 | 2444663 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

Ya gotta read into what he says like a trend...he has clearly stated he sees the price dropping although he is still accumulating. In a couple months it will be where he isn't selling but is currently holding off purchases to get a better price in the near future. Remember he has gathered the following he has in large part due to his position in regards to currency and gold. He has too be careful how he phrases what he says or it invalidates the premise of his views over the last few years. My apologies for misspelling the name. I've been typing for a few hours and sometimes my fingers and my brain don't connect 100%

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 04:44 | 2444706 prole
prole's picture

Typing all day have "ya" you think it's funny to talk down to us? Do you think we are stupid just because you get paid for your trolling and we are here for free, for fun? (we are actual humans) Live it up prison guard, yuck it up with your paid friends, we will survive, arbeit bacht frei.

PS- Could you tell me where exactly Marc Farber "reversed his outlook on gold?" (not that I believe you ever heard of him, or care)

And by what inverted logic/sanity would you think that we would pay, for your trolling? Your posts here are beyond stupid, beyond laughable, not even funny, tell Cass to fire you. Pay for your stupidity, you should have to pay a troll fee to get on zh. It is kind of ironic though,  because we do pay for your stupid trolling.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:09 | 2444879 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



I've been typing for a few hours and sometimes my fingers and my brain don't connect 100%



The solution is simple.....Dr. Bob explains. It only costs 5 dollars....or an ounce of silver. Whatever you have handy.


Mon, 05/21/2012 - 00:05 | 2446430 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

Care to dispute what I said or just play the you suck routine. Go to google...type faber sees gold and silver dropping in value....maybe 15 different times in the last few months he has made that statement. Try a little harder next time and maybe offer a rebuttal rather than try to make me feel bad that your an idiot.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 07:06 | 2444755 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

"I've been typing for a few hours and sometimes my fingers and my brain don't connect 100%"


Your brain cells don't seem to connect very well either.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 07:57 | 2444814 BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture


One wonders why you even try to attempt to present any type of argument on this forum.

One also wonders if you flunked a course in economics - or that you took umbrage to MacLeod's assertion that you are Kensyianly brainwashed. Seems you are - deeply. This explains the disconnect of your brain and fingers. Even your bones know you lie.

I type for hours too. No problems here.

Lastly, all of us know that you get paid in fiat currency vs. something that holds value - and can't be printed or conjured up out of thin air.

THAT - is being thoroughly and totally screwed to the wall.

Your "masters" must be proud of you - and laughing heartily at the snow-job they did on you.

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 00:06 | 2446433 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

Once again...explain to me where I was mistaken...if I flunked economics and it's quite clear please explain my actual error. Telling me I'm an idiot doesn't prove I'm one. Showing me where I erred does. Try again.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 03:34 | 2444662 BadKiTTy
BadKiTTy's picture

And you are ?

The critics chair is the easy one. And offering to write something if you get paid???

Tell you what write it and then we'll vote....

Except you won't.......


Sun, 05/20/2012 - 03:36 | 2444665 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

Bad kitty I except said challenge...pick the topic, the parameters, and the side of opinion...I'm willing to let you dictate the entire structure and rules. We can both post it at the top of a new article (the first that falls under the category of your choosing) and we can let the readers decide which is more accurate and informative. Balls in your court :)

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 03:44 | 2444671 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

And for the record I make multiple comments on every post on this website that I have time for. I will cede I get a lot of down arrows however rarely if ever recieve criticism in a coherent manner. And of course I would expect to be compensated for my work. I comment and argue for fun. I'm a capitalist not a socialist. I expect nothing for free and expect to be compensated for my effort. Most of the articles I write and are presented on sites such as this are payed for with nothing more than recognition and the good feeling I get from informing. This website is not short on substance in the articles but can often be found lacking in the comments section. Since my opinion would be considered blasphemy here I would expect payment in the form of capital or goods. However like I stated in my previous comment I would be happy to match ya an article written by us both so others could put you in your proper place.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 07:33 | 2444796 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

Hard too believe nobody is going to "except" the challange and go tow too tow wit you're formiddleble brian.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 04:13 | 2444683 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

A little something to think about. If everyone put their investment money into gold and silver and waited for it to appreciate against the currency you would learn a lesson in economics rather quickly. Capital sitting in a safe is detrimental to the economy. Allocating capital in such a way prevents it from entering back into the economy and would shortly grind the economy to a halt. The economy itself can be loosely defined as the circulation of money earned through productivity or capital investment or allocation and the recycling of it into the purchase of goods, services, or reinvestment of said capital. If there are no jobs it stalls the economy. If the money is not put back into circulation it stalls the economy. That is the reason this recession is still ongoing. Because our system of fiat is based on an ever growing economy not only does the economy need to continuously expand through recirculation of said capital but also growth of capital through creation and credit growth. We currently have high unemployment (left side circle of economy) and too much money sitting idle (corps sitting on tons of cash and the rich sitting on tons of cash. Leading the govt to act as the aggregate which history has proven does a shitty job of properly allocating capital not too mentionit incurs debt. I do believe in the govt being AN aggregate because that is how more currency comes into existence but when it is the main or almost only aggregate the economy chokes to death. I implore anyone who wishes do down arrow me to refrain from doing so until they can offer a counter argument to what I just said.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 04:57 | 2444718 prole
prole's picture

You are fired. You're fired. You are dismissed. Nobody is interested in your trolling or in being talked down to by someone who is himself, if not stupid, then at least disingenuous, dishonest, and trolling. You are fired. Nobody is going to pay for your posts or even read them. But I'll try this once:

If everyone put their investment money into gold and silver and waited for it to appreciate against the currency you would learn a lesson in economics rather quickly

A- We don't care about 'everybody' Do you? I doubt it.

B- Goldbug is an extreme minority position in the US, so what are you worried about"everybody" for? "Everybody" is watching the Kardashians and stuffing their fat asses with Pizza and diet sodas, is far closer to the truth than a "everybody" going long gold.

C- We don't "put investment money into gold" but we do hold gold as money. The reason we do this is not because we "wait for it to appreciate against the currency" we do it because we expect the currency to collapse like Zimbabwe, a nation with more sober and restrained leadership than we now have.

So since your first statement was between idiotic and insane, I couldn't read past it, for fear I might become as dumb as "ya"


Sun, 05/20/2012 - 10:36 | 2445020 Absinthe Minded
Absinthe Minded's picture

The money isn't on the sidelines, it's getting invested, in India, China, places like that. Just ask GE, Ford, GM, Caterpillar, they all know that the US is just a carcass now. With a bunch of maggots just sucking her dry.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 11:04 | 2445069 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1

And buying Korean bearings...  Keep an eye out...

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 00:13 | 2446445 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

Ok let me tear your wonderful 4 pts up.

1st saying the dollar is worthless and everyone should buy gold and silver to save themselves from hyperinflation then EVERYONE'S capital would be sitting in a safe and the convoy would evaporate.

2nd same as the 1st. Obviously you didn't notice you made the same argument on two different points.

3rd gold is not money. It was money. Gold today is an asset. A wealth preserver over time against inflation. However when the rise in the ratio of currency to gold outpaces inflation it is overpriced and will eventually go back the correct ratio. What we are witnessing today. 100 years and it hasnt collapsed. The USD is backed by the US military so until that is no longer the case or until the public loses faith in the currency it won't collapse. Comparing the current US monetary system to Zimbabwe when they experienced hyperinflation clearly shows you have studied neither.

I'm ok with you not reading what I type. I love that you bought silver with both hands at 45$+...the less money and wealth you have the more I have since it's all relative. Nice try buddy.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 07:44 | 2444793 Marco
Marco's picture

The ZH consensus has no solution other than their own brand of hopium (things like "charity will take care of healthcare for the less fortunate", that sort of thing) or worse, plain old embrace of social Darwinism.

In the end ZH gold buggery is about hitching a ride with TPTB to being on the top of the neofeudalist food chain, in a world where automation and peak fucking everything is making labour worthless ... they're not offering solutions for anyone but a small percentage of individuals. To their credit, they don't outright steal anything like TPTB ... to their detriment, they often pretend their cause is somehow a holy one.

At best they are fatalists who see no solution but self-preparedness ... now I'm not saying this is true for gold bugs period, Jesse's Cafe American is one of the best examples of a gold bug with a conscience, just the prevalent ones on ZH.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 07:48 | 2444806 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

The ZH consensus is more like:

Work hard to produce something of value.

Take care of yourself, your family and others in your community.

The corrupt captains of the USS Corputopia are going to run this ship into an iceburg so grab a life jacket now.


Sun, 05/20/2012 - 07:51 | 2444808 Marco
Marco's picture

As I said, fatalists at best ... social Darwinists at worst.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 08:33 | 2444834 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

If you're the one with the solutions for this cluster, please share.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:44 | 2444924 Marco
Marco's picture

On the American side, I think you guys should push RP to ally with the progressives and make change they can agree on (dismantlement of the various wars etc) and leave the rest alone for the moment ... I think in the long term the progressives have it right, but between them can agree on enough to improve the nation in the short term. United they might actually be electable too.

On the European side, we should push the Eurocrats to use the stability fund to be used to guarantee personal savings ... once the danger of bank runs and capital displacement is averted we can let banks go bankrupt a little more gracefully and we can start thinking about offering countries a graceful exit from the Euro (with existing currency holdings being maintained in Euro's to prevent capital flight, but with currency exchanges only allowed to go one way and internal trade only allowed in the new national currency so as to slowly return the country to their new national currency). Austerity for the PIGS and wage inflation for the trade surplus countries will still be necessary ... but there's no reason to let the Eurozone economy implode before doing it, as a whole it's still competitive (ie. it has an external trade balance).

Gold buggery is just a distraction from the real problems of this age ... corruption, globalization and peak fucking everything. It's fine at a personal level, but a gold standard is irrelevant to the problems at a national level and above.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 10:57 | 2445055 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

Marco, if pretty much EVERY FUCKING COUNTRY IN EUROPE IS IN DEBT, then there is no 'stability fund'.  It's an illusion.  First a country has to SAVE more than it SPENDs, Then it has excess capital that it can use as a 'stability fund' or whatever else it wants. 

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 12:05 | 2445161 Marco
Marco's picture

Unlike say the US the debt is internal, in trade surplus/balance situation sovereign debt is a fiscal issue ... an issue which through various policies can be can kicked for a long time as Japan has shown. It's certainly not an ideal way to run an economy, but we have bigger fish to fry.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:25 | 2445295 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

"On the American side, I think you guys should push RP to ally with the progressives"  That's really funny.  You must know RP and most on this site are libertarians-but fail to understand the word liberatarian is based upon liberty.  You should have written, "you guys should get RP to sell out to the statists and those who hate freedom but value the illusion of security of the welfare state".

Actually, what we are trying to do right now is change the platform of the republican party to reflect a respect for the individual and freedom.  Its a small but important thing.  We're doing it by taking, contributing funds to libertarian candidates, taking  precinct chairpositions, delegates-and its working.  Thirty years of consistency on matters of freedom such as shown by RP will never culminate in a sell-out to the statists and their supporters, the money trust! 

You statists, like Lenin always believe, "the end justifies the means", while we believe, "the means determine the end".  Think about that and you'll stop your silly trolling or go post on the Huffington post to a more receptive audience of sell-outs.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 16:17 | 2445666 Marco
Marco's picture

And how is that going for you? The Koch brothers trivially used the sentiment to just put more puppets in government ...

PS. I don't believe the end justifies the means, I believe the land belongs to the people.

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 06:16 | 2446718 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture




The Koch brothers trivially used....



OK......I'm hanging up the phone now. Come back when you want to say something rational.


Sun, 05/20/2012 - 17:37 | 2445819 Barking Spaniel
Barking Spaniel's picture

Your comments are a distraction from intelligent conversation.

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 00:15 | 2446448 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

All of which I agree with aside from your last comment. Seems like they held it together pretty well when the banks should have imploded a few years back.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 11:46 | 2445130 Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

> (things like "charity will take care of healthcare for the less fortunate", that sort of thing)

Agree, we need to force people to take care of each other by using government-backed coercion and violence. That will surerly fix the problem.

With so much obesity-related costs, healthcare is looking more and more like a transfer payment akin to a lifestyle subsidy. A lot of people have a big problem with this, really. You can live any way you want, and if it has health consequences, you will be bailed out, because those evil charities will just tell you straight and truthfully to stop smoking, stop drinking, eat healthy food and that sort of thing and not promote the latest pills subscription plans.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 19:41 | 2445873 Marco
Marco's picture

Universal healthcare did surely fix a whole lot of problems, created some others ... but that's life, there are no easy answers. There are options open to government to curb the problem a bit, soda tax, insurance premium surcharges for obese people, that sort of thing.

BTW, fat people die younger too ... so that compensates a bit on their lifetime averaged medical bills.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 07:34 | 2444794 margaris
margaris's picture

Hey BenLightYear, put some paragraphs in your writing.... it hurts my eyes when reading.... or is this your intention?


The thing with precious metals .... you want to buy the undervalued stuff and sell the overvalued.

It has nothing to do with precious metals per se, its just their time right now... and everything else stinks.

Its as simple as that...

If you call yourself an investor you have to learn to recognize stinking shit, or you will not survive long enough to tell a story other than the story about your failure. 


Mon, 05/21/2012 - 00:16 | 2446451 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

WAS their time. Felt your statement needed a correction.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 08:32 | 2444832 Kickaha
Kickaha's picture

It is a "chicken/egg" sort of thing, Ben.

Is the credit cycle broken because people are hoarding precious metals, or are people hoarding precious metals because the credit cycle is broken?

In Europe and the USA, governments have made it illegal to hire unskilled workers via minimum wage laws.  Corporations naturally migrate to countries where the largest component of their cost structure, labor, can be secured at minimum cost.  The epidemic of high unemployment across the Western world is a direct result of laws that prohibit the falling of prevailing wages in the Western world.  Asian countries offer wages that are set at levels which are a fraction of the levels fixed by minimum wage laws in both Europe and the USA.  Those evil corporations either move their factories offshore, or go bankrupt.  Either way, the unskilled go on the unemployment dole and then on social services.

So, in an atmosphere where huge swaths of the populace has been rendered unemployable by law, where trillions of paper currency will be printed to provide them with food, clothing and shelter, it would appear likely that there will be a vast excess of liquidity, and that those few who seek refuge in precious metals as a hedge against currency debasement are having zero effect on economic growth.

Combined with that problem is that the cost of natural resources is increasing.  Natural resources are the foundation for all meaningful economic activity.  As world population increases, demand for natural resouces increases.  This makes it harder to borrow money, use the money to purchase natural resources, build or manufacture something, sell it, and then repay the loan with interest.  So lots of money is sitting on the sidelines.  The owners cannot figure out a way to invest it profitably in real economic activity, or, in the alternative, it is likely to yield a greater return if put to "use" in the unregulated financial markets, unless it turns out you are dumber than the other gamblers.

There are very real, very serious, and very difficult to fix problems with the Western economies, Ben, and buying and holding precious metals is the best way individuals can protect themselves and their loved ones from what appears to be the inevitable end game in those nations which have made it illegal for companies to hire workers.  The work that could have been performed by these good people will never be regained.  Keeping unemployed citizens alive will drain all capital from these societies and relegate them to third-world status sooner than you think.  The debasement of paper currency value is accelerating. 

The credit cycle is broken, because the debtors cannot repay what they have borrowed.  The governments will print, print, print, if only to repay what they themselves owe with cheaper money.  There is absolutely no way for the Western economies to "grow" their way out of this dilemma.

If you have any precious metals, Ben, I'd be happy to take them off your hands at today's prices.


Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:35 | 2444921 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1

VERY GOOD comment Kickaha!

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:30 | 2445306 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

Brilliant analysis of the situation Kickaha.  And that's not all confirmation bias talking.

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 00:26 | 2446456 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

A very insightful comment. Straightforward, concise, and actually made sense. So i will respond the best I can without my fingers going numb. In an economy where the money is created from debt you need said economy to grow in perpetuity. The second the creation of capital and or credit slows or decreases it all crashes. We have witnessed this a few times in the last 100 years. We are currently witnessing this because the velocity of investment gained too much momentum in the last 15 years...preceding 2007...and when it slowed just a little it crashed. One fund found itself short on margin calls and had to liquidate which created a drop in price and more margin calls. Those liquadations created more price drops at which point people started selling because the near term trend of what was happening was clear. No one likes to hold a devaluing asset. (ZH readers the exception )

The error in the end of your argument is that they are attempting to print to repay debt when printing creates more debt. Believe it or not Ben understands that creating USD also creates debt. So that is a moot argument.

In regards to buying my metals I unloaded around 42-45 and about 1815...really thought we would see 60/2000k before we settled back to the correct value for them in regards to the USD. I'll be a buyer again around 18-20 and 1k because that's what they are actually worth priced in fiat today.

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 06:20 | 2446721 Jash
Jash's picture

Divide the amount of USD by gold ounces and see why figure you come up with. You'd be surprised, or in denial.

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 06:21 | 2446723 Jash
Jash's picture

Divide the amount of USD by gold ounces and see what figure you come up with. You'd be surprised, or in denial.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 08:45 | 2444843 LongBalls
LongBalls's picture

I expect you to stand on the Federal Reserve front porch and demand that U.S. gold reserves are useless and should be thrown out on the front lawn. If gold is of no value except to slow the velocity of money then why do we bother posting guards protecting it at places like Ft. Knox?

Currency creation does not create real wealth. Currency creation is the extraction of wealth (unless your the first to get it off the print press) through inflation while giving debt slaves the illusion of increased wealth. The real value of a currency is in the amount of stuff it can buy. Think about that for a moment.

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 00:30 | 2446461 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

I never said gold was worthless. I clearly stated they are worth less than they are currently priced in addition to deleveraging/deflation we are currently experiencing.

I agree the actual act of creating currency generally does not create wealth with the exception of the first who get too handle it.

Debt Slaves? Really? I didn't realize the govt was taxing more than it was spending. Do you even understand what you are saying? A little Von Mises or rothbard would do ya some good. I'd suggest Hayek but I would hate for ya too get the headache I'm sure you would end up with. Eventually you could work up to it though.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:45 | 2444930 emersonreturn
emersonreturn's picture

bly:  why then do banks and corps hold so much cash?  it seems unpatriotic of a govt to encourage such practice?

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 12:18 | 2445182 Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

"If everyone"

If you are going to attempt to apply logical reasoning to deduce new truths, at least put some effort in and learn basic concepts such supply and demand and marginal utility. If 1% of $ assets of the economy is in gold and you want to bring it to say a 5% allocation, it is going to have certain implications for its price as more dollars will bid for essentially the same physical metal stock. It is absolutely possible that everyone can put all of their savings in gold, there is no upper limitation to gold ownership in the economy. Claims to the contrary are absurd. It is just a matter of pricing the existing gold stock.

"Capital sitting in a safe is detrimental to the economy."

A bright new day and another central planning mind who has a top-down opinion on what others ought to do with their money. Most people would say, it is not your business what others do with their own money. I suggest you to go out and spend all the money you have and report back with your results as far as your well being is concerned.

What you instead ought to ask yourself is why the top 1% owns most of the assets and why they have ended up there, and why income stratas indicate that the situation is only getting more polarized. Hint: inflation.

"If there are no jobs it stalls the economy"

If there are no profits and savings of surplus value in the economy, there cannot be any investment in future productivity enhancements and productive capital. Jobs emanate from capital investment. If you destroy capital, you destroy jobs. Look at manufacturing jobs as a fraction of the labor force in developed countries that run on fiat money, it is getting totally destroyed and it has everything to do with the fact that the monetary system is disconnected from constraintsr of the physical economy. The remaining jobs are starting to look like a plantage-based pyramid economy with multiple layers of service jobs to serve the top 1% elite. Pure fiat money in an electronic book keeping entry is not a saving, it is merely an information signal layer representing a claim, which is disconnected from the physical economy.

"too much money sitting idle"

Yeah, all those trillions created by the Fed are sitting idle, you know I am crying out loud really that the monetary transmission policy is not working. So then let's wait until they leak out in the economy, although not sure I want to be there when it happens, really. By all means let me know the price of a loaf of bread from your vantage point when it happens.


Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:03 | 2445255 PivotalTrades
PivotalTrades's picture

You can not argue with the mentaly chalanged.  They never realize that price will dictate demand and vise versa.

If you do not allow the market to discover price prudent stewards of money will leave it sitting idle.

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 00:38 | 2446469 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

When arguing Econ theory it is predicated that the factors that alter or effect the economy all be included. I don't care what you do with your money. I never said I did. I clearly stated IF everyone put their money into silver and gold then the economy would stall and break. Something you were unable to dispute.

In regards to jobs stalling the economy I can not dispute what you said because it is accurate. However you fail to include HOW the capital was destroyed. Last I checked the FED creates capital. The reason why the jobs are shitty and not as many is because of outsourcing for cheaper labor and technology. The more advanced we get the less human productivity is required to create the same amount of goods.

They are sitting idle my friend. Have you seen the balance sheets of the major corporations? The numbers for production around the country? The balance sheets of the rich? We are stalled because the money is not circulating. Plain and simple. And it's not because ZH readers bought some bullion. It's because those who invest capital on large scales and businesses who normally reinvest profits are not putting the money back to work.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 15:01 | 2445505 DosZap
DosZap's picture


I agree with a lot of your statements, but.

Be it PM's or USD's sitting in a safe(Banks), and its not being LOANED.................(circulated)

There is no difference between the two...............neither is doing anything to Jump start the economy.

Besides there are not near enough PM's sitting to affect an economy of the size OURS WAS, to make a damn.

Now, if the fiat the gub has sitting in Banks, and the banks are refusing to loan(which they are to millions who are trying to expand their mfg bases) it we are at PAR for both.

Plus there have been  trillions  printed and almost none has hit the economy,its sitting WHY isn't it circulating why hasn't the Fed made them loan it out?.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 15:05 | 2445518 dougngen
dougngen's picture

"Capital sitting in a safe is detrimental to the economy"

John Maynard Keynes 



Sun, 05/20/2012 - 05:11 | 2444725 Boeing Boy
Boeing Boy's picture

Marc Farber?  Fucking troll..

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 07:18 | 2444779 Ricky Bobby
Ricky Bobby's picture

the Ghost of Johnny Bravo!

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 14:30 | 2445446 _underscore
_underscore's picture

I always chuckle (somewhat incredulously though..) when a poster that's so anti-PMs comes on & tries to help us poor deluded souls - you really must have your investment strategy neatly worked out during the 9-5 to have the time to come here & advise. If PM hedging is inimical to you & your world (economical) view, may I ask why you waste your time with a bunch of (confessed) PM zealots? Seriously.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:03 | 2444125 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture


Thousands march in Frankfurt against austerity measures

"We're protesting against the Europe-wide policy of impoverishment by the troika," said a spokeswoman for the 'Blockupy' anti-capitalist movement, who put the number of protesters at 25,000. Police said there were 20,000.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 07:22 | 2444783 Gavrikon
Gavrikon's picture

All I know is they made it fucking hard to get into the office on Thursday and Friday.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:04 | 2444127 Hulk
Hulk's picture

I often wonder what it would be like to be named  

Alasdair Macleod

I think it must feel very special...

Oh, and BTW, Got Gold Bitchez ???

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:15 | 2444167 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

I loaded up on silver yesterday after it bounced.  It looks like the inverse head and shoulders is over.  I expect a run up in price.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:52 | 2444267 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Absolutely. Debt has gone exponential, Austerity is dead ! We have collectively lost our minds...



Sun, 05/20/2012 - 01:56 | 2444530 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

That sentence has a sledgehammer feel to it.


Sun, 05/20/2012 - 12:43 | 2445205 Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

I was thinking the other day that the whole "austerity" saga was just a false flag event to print 10x times more money, something which is actually rather sinister and Hegelliean dialectic-like as follows:

1) Run up massive deficits under the guise of "welfare for the people", chastise those who warn about the unsustainability of said spending, promote expansion, growth and just wars to accelerate the process

2) Apply a sudden stop of the spigots, spread a "crisis" meme through mass media, instigate fear and hysteria in the markets to amplify the shock therapy effect

3) Apply small, seemingly "academically rigorous" doses of fiat money to save selected political and business buddies from going bust on their bad bets while keeping market pundits busy about whether "it is working"

4) When people get upset about their freedoms being lost, impose heavy regulations on the economy and clamp down on all kinds of freedoms, raise taxes and claim that the taxes are used for "saving the economy"

5) Make safe asset prices move in a zigzag fashion to erase any appearance of technical trends and send out conflicting signals of inflation by means of manipulating core money market rate and risk metrics

6) Once the whole thing starts to collapse again in earnest, the population and markets will be crying out for and be ready to accept "QE to infinity" from their overlords and they will welcome it with jubilant cheers and hooray

Expect more of Stockholm monetary syndrome, where the monetary prisoners that are suffering financial repression vehemently defend their captors as the speed of events increases. This thought may be manifesting itself as rape dreams in the psyche of the general population, as they secretly wish for being severly hurt, or at least they are aware that they are getting hurt or being abused already.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:36 | 2445317 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

Looks like you understand the "principles" of Fabian Socialism, whose symbol is the wolf in sheeps clothing.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 23:12 | 2444319 Strike Back
Strike Back's picture

Good call on the shadow drop.  Pulled trigger too early.  OOOHHH WEELLLLL.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 23:17 | 2444326 BlueCollaredOne
BlueCollaredOne's picture

I have a pretty big family and bought 20 silver 1 oz from scottsdale (the ones with the lion) for them recently as a gift for putting up with my crazy ass. It cost more than buying coins, but those bars have the sex appeal needed to wake the sheep up.

It has woken 7 of them up, and they all AGree silver is undervalued as fuck. They now lurk this blog, so this is me saying hello

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 01:06 | 2444470 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

You have provided your family members a very wise history lesson. They will be forever grateful and thankful. My Great-Great Grandfather and his brother, the 1st. Alcalde (Gov) of New Mexico, under Spanish land grants, dealt in gold and silver as true currency never trusting the worth of paper currency.

This has been past down through the family and has benefited his prodigy greatly. It's never too early to set a family tradition.


Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:38 | 2444925 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1

But, almost EVERYONE in my family I have talked to (or even given gold to) does not want to hear it or are not listening...

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 20:28 | 2446061 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

+ 1 for attempting to help them.

Some of us must become leaders of our families even when we do not seek it, for in times of peril family leaders are sought out by others to lead them to safety with regard to that wisdom.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:59 | 2444282 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


His cousins Duncan and Connor were fairly well known.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:06 | 2444135 CaptFufflePants
CaptFufflePants's picture

Hey, not that anyone really gives a shit,  I hold a liberal progressive ideology on social issues, yet am completely on your side when it comes to finances.

I like to think the way Frank Zappa saw the world, is how I align myself.

Anywho, my extremely liberal wife just presented me a gift for our wedding anniversary. $20 worth of pre-1965 and earlier US coins.

Even she fucking gets it now.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:35 | 2444221 AUD
AUD's picture

What they do... in Washing-tun.

They just... take... care... of nu-umber one

And number one ain't you-u-u!

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:44 | 2444241 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

$20 worth of pre-1965 and earlier US coins.

Niiiiice. Progress not perfection.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:47 | 2444248 kekekekekekeke
kekekekekekeke's picture

Me too.  Even my super socially liberal vegan friend who has a picture of her doing the shocker next to Huckabee is stacking firearms and pms now.  Gave her a DON'T TREAD ON ME silver round to get her started, she was pretty stoked ^_^

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 23:22 | 2444344 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

People who hold a “liberal progressive ideology and are fiscally conservative" are simply liberals who want to spend everyone else's money, but not their own.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 02:20 | 2444549 bigkahuna
bigkahuna's picture

If you take the want to spend other peoples money to grow a hirking all powerful government out of the new age liberal, then you get closer to a true liberal.

A true liberal is actually mostly similiar to the current Libertarian. 

The new age "liberal" that the news outlets always talk about is actually somewhere between socialist and communist.

The "conservative" is a big government supporter quasi socialist with legislation of morality and endless wars aka military diplomacy included. See: new age liberal plus extras. -though the new age libs seem to have adopted wars too.

One of these days people are going to wake up to this 2 party scam. One of these days right?

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 02:51 | 2444606 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

I agree that true liberal is actually mostly similiar to the current Libertarian.

What you call new age "liberal" is really a neo-liberal (progressive) that you are right, is actually somewhere between a socialist and communist.

What you call a conservative is actually a neo-conservative (most establishment Repubs) whom, like the neo-libs, are somewhere between socialist and fascists.

Modern conservatives Democrat or Republican want Constitutional government, free-markets and sound money.  

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 07:47 | 2444804 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

The average brainwashed liberal looks at someone like myself & sees solar panels, vegetable gardens, rain barrels, etc. & approves because they just assume I'm some kind of skittle shitting, Obama loving, eco-nazi...

Then you tell them you support Ron Paul & their brain short circuits...

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:41 | 2444927 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Ha ha!  Very good!  + 1

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:07 | 2444877 DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

You don't have to get all wound up around all of these terms (liberal, conservative, progressive, fascist, socialist, communist, neo-this and neo-that), because most people who use them have no clue what they mean anyway.  

A simpler concept is statist, for all people who want to grow government via whatever means, or non-statist for people who believe that the government has 3 basic functions: delivering the mail, protecting the shores, and staying the hell out of my life!

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 11:44 | 2445126 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Good point.  Too many labels obscure the fact that you're either a statist or a non-statist.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:25 | 2445296 DosZap
DosZap's picture

I hold a liberal progressive ideology on social issues, yet am completely on your side when it comes to finances.

 That cannot BE....................a Socialist/Communist doesn't ever believe the same as we do.( and exactly what a Liberal Progressive is).

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:42 | 2445329 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

Progressive/liberals are only liberal with other people's money, OPM.  With their own, they look out for their self-interest as does anyone who isn't insane.  That's the reason on free markets can determine prices and allocation of scarce resources, not central planners.  Just as liberals don't want people in housing projects to own firearms, but they have one or more stored in their closet but likely don't know how to shoot or reload. 

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 15:09 | 2445526 dougngen
dougngen's picture

"I hold a liberal progressive ideology on social issues, yet am completely on your side when it comes to finances."

Fortunately schizophrenia can be medicated...

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:08 | 2444138 Earl of Chiswick
Earl of Chiswick's picture

The author writes:

I don’t think I have seen a stretch like this as I can remember;

which begs the question Where TF were you in the autumn of 2008?

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:15 | 2444160 nuinut
nuinut's picture

Maybe Basel will get around to making gold a Tier1 asset and the market will complete the process. ;)


Sat, 05/19/2012 - 23:46 | 2444385 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture

at this point making gold Tier 1 would be capitulation. I can hear Bernacke screaming now "I've spent years keeping the price low and now you want to put an explosion into motion???"

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 01:57 | 2444518 nuinut
nuinut's picture

Well the BIS have it under consideration.

Bernanke has done well keeping the show on the road longer than many thought possible, but you can only let the wheels fall off so far in the rest of the world before you gotta pull the pin.

The "American Experience" could never be a permanent arrangement, being all take and no give, you know?

Things don't work like that in the real world, not things that last.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:15 | 2444166 Alexandros
Alexandros's picture

The end of the world is near ...The ten plagues of Pharaoh “have been brought upon” the USA


...The Euro, as it is explained further down, does not “signal” any European return to the global economic status. It signals the return of the Jews to Europe. There is no currency conflict. There can’t be such a conflict because both currencies are controlled by the exact same people. These are the people who control the dollar through the FED and are the same who control the Euro through the Central European Bank. Greenspan, Bernanke, Trichet and Akerman are not only like-minded, colleagues and banqueters; they are also Jewish cognates and foster brothers.

Authored by Panagiotis Traianou

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:26 | 2444198 Alexandros
Alexandros's picture

The Jews have literary robbed Americans of their capital and they are forced to think like thieves. It is not in a thief’s interest, no matter how cunning and powerful he is, to remain at the scene of the crime, keeping his spoils, therefore his enemy too, close to him. He fears that at some point this enemy will react and ask them back. That is exactly why they want the Euro. This way they can secure the spoils in their name and they can make sure that the spoils remain in their possession and the former owners cannot threaten them. As long as their capital, therefore the entirety of the multinational companies, is connected to the American currency, they are in danger. If for any reason they lose control of FED, the Americans can be a threat. The Americans can do whatever they did to them, only now it will be at their expense. The Americans can reciprocate the actions, which this time will be at the expense of the Jews....


The end of the world is near ...The ten plagues of Pharaoh “have been brought upon” the USA.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:34 | 2444216 Tinky
Tinky's picture

Hey Tyler – how about a spam filter that blocks any post that includes the word "Pharaoh"?

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 03:30 | 2444658 trebuchet
trebuchet's picture

Golden Dawn spillage, clean up in aisle 3!!

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:38 | 2444228 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

"The Jews have literary robbed Americans of their capital..."


Do you mean to tell me that those mean old Jews stole the Americans' books?

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 23:35 | 2444363 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture

Bob Dylan is going to take my capital? Hell he already has several hundred of my dollars over the years. And that Sienfelt guy too you say?

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:47 | 2445346 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

"And thus we always return to the problem of the Jews"  - paraphrasing Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampfe when analyzing any social problem.  To a man with  a hammer every problem is a nail.

You are so tiresome, get a life or better, take your own.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:15 | 2444168 pissing_excellence
pissing_excellence's picture


Sun, 05/20/2012 - 01:54 | 2444525 Cadavre
Cadavre's picture

The counterparties to this $90 billion must be getting a bit worried about that

The CDS writers for that debt are thinking, or shoukd be thinking, collateral call - and Tungsten Ben probably has a redux idea that just might work this time round (maybe and again).

gold and silver have become very, very seriously mispriced.

Germany and India and others, for sure, are looking to repatriate off shored gold. The FED uses the Morgue for a lot of transactions including short gold contracts. If any of the gold offshored is missing, the custodians need to make it up. Shorts drive prices down (for a while), The weekend and early week gold signal looked pretty much in the face concocted. Mean: when the market is heading one way and gold the other,  ya gotz ta know in your bunions the primaries are darkpooling shorts for the FED.

Then Gold defied both the indexes and EUR/USD

About mid week the gold pit looked to have spotted the invisible hand's game - and gold market climbed back to reality despite the EUR/USD machinations or index direction.

This weekend's charts had gold above the last two markets and pushing near 1600$.

Was the weirdest sh*t ever seen!

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:20 | 2444177 MrPoopypants
MrPoopypants's picture

Gold? I'd rather have cash money USD. In a deflationary event gold will tumble like it did in 2008. Hoard cash and buy gold only once the presses get turned on - AFTER the debt destruction.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:42 | 2444237 Praetor
Praetor's picture

And how will this debt be destroyed?

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 23:06 | 2444304 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Doesn't need to be.

Debt is kind of an illusion. It's numbers sitting on a server somewhere.

A long time ago I had heard that governments had their Gold sitting in a vault and debt was moving a pile of Gold from one nations room to another nations room.

Now it's just some algo running, shifting 0's and 1'.

Once TPTB works the kinks out of digital currency there will be no more problems. Every taxable cent accounted for.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 02:58 | 2444626 Assetman
Assetman's picture

Gully Foyle

What's the purpose of posting other people's profile on every posting?

It's kinda creepy.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 03:07 | 2444634 Rahm
Rahm's picture

You can take your bit coin and shove it up your ass!!!

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:53 | 2444946 ThirdWorldDude
ThirdWorldDude's picture

"Debt is kind of an illusion. It's numbers sitting on a server somewhere."


Not just a kind of an illusion, it's pure magick!

As is your bank account...and your FEDnotes... You better start piling up coins, at least the brass has some real value.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:45 | 2444243 kekekekekekeke
kekekekekekeke's picture

let's talk about this deflation

are we in it

how much longer


Sat, 05/19/2012 - 23:28 | 2444352 jimmyjames
jimmyjames's picture

let's talk about this deflation

are we in it

how much longer


If we didn't have special accounting rules ie: level 3 assets etc. and every SIV was marked to market it would show we have never been out of deflation since 08..but as long as they can keep a curtain pulled over it-we can have pretend inflation at least-

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 23:20 | 2444335 jimmyjames
jimmyjames's picture

Gold? I'd rather have cash money USD. In a deflationary event gold will tumble like it did in 2008. Hoard cash and buy gold only once the presses get turned on - AFTER the debt destruction.


You wont be able to buy gold with your cash if we have deflation-although cash is good to have in deflation and everyone should hold some cash-but "everything" including dollars will deflate against the price of gold-big time-

Money is king in deflation and gold is the best quality of money there is-

Prechtor misses the boat completely on his gold call-

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 10:06 | 2444974 emersonreturn
emersonreturn's picture

jimmyjames, given the current changes globally, how do you see silver verus gold?  do you recommend half gold, half silver?  or one over the other?  thank you.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 23:40 | 2444372 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture


you are correct IF we face deflation...which can't happen with no gold backing of the currency...pain will not permit it.Never has never wlll.

If you see hyperinflation you should buy gold and not worry about serviceable debts.

got it???

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 00:16 | 2444422 jimmyjames
jimmyjames's picture

you are correct IF we face deflation...which can't happen with no gold backing of the currency


Why can't it happen with no gold backing?

Why could it happen if there was gold backing?

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 00:46 | 2444460 spankthebernank
spankthebernank's picture

Shitty pants you have completely and utterly missed the point.  Your paper is WORTHLESS....Right Now.N.O.T.H.I.N.G, NADA, ZIPP.  Counterfitting has robbed you of your hard earned paper, buy a hard asset while you still have the chance.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 03:00 | 2444628 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

I am curious which telecom provider you use that accepts bullion for payment. Since they obviously wouldn't accept your worthless paper anymore than my worthless dog shit. If your gonna preach about fiat at least learn how to make a coherent argument. And FYI the USD is backed by the one thing in history that has always been more valuable than even gold. And that my friend is the military. As long as the USA is the top military power the USD will be accepted currency. On a long enough time line you will lose purchasing power holding dollars. On the same token however you will lose money holding assets when in a deflationary cycle or a deleveraging cycle...both of which we are currently experiencing.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 03:18 | 2444646 Colonel
Colonel's picture

You mean that increasing gay parade you call the military that will be leaving Afghanistan in defeat any day now? LOL.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 11:00 | 2445061 eaglefalcon
eaglefalcon's picture

Military prowess can force the world to accept the dollar as a medium of exchange, but not store of value. That's why uncle Ben has to print dollars to buy treasuries from Timmy: the Chinese, the Saudis and the Brazilians are not increasing their piles of confetti paper any more. As soon as they receive dollars, they blow them on some real stuff.

USD can't keep its reserve currency status if its only use is to purchase oil for the next few months

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 02:07 | 2444537 Cadavre
Cadavre's picture

The USD "deflated" gainst the EUR last week and gold moved higher. Central Banks have synced their inflate while their money changers brilliantly engineered a relatively flat (equalized) FX. The basket is equally worthless. It seem it would take a really dramatic deflate to nudge gold down now. The "basket of fiats" to "gold" ain't what it used to be. The gig is up.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 02:10 | 2444541 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

13 downvotes for a guy who is so obviously correct? Gotta be kidding me. Keep buying your silver and gold in today's market...I'll be more than happy to buy it off of ya in a year at half what ya payed today. Both are overpriced in today's environment. The best judge of value of gold/silver is how much it takes in reference to land. By that barometer alone shows you how out of whack the prices were and still are. And no that's not the only basis for my conclusion but it's a nice simple one that works for laymen. In a deleveraging cycle, mixed with asset deflation and a recession the best thing to own ATM is cash. And I hate holding cash. But nowhere near as much as I hate losing capital which is exactly what your doing if your still buying gold/silver today.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 05:19 | 2444728 prole
prole's picture

Uh Einstein, what makes "ya" think we are going to be selling in a year?  How many times in "ya" life have you used the word "ya" to address your fellow inmates of the USSA? Phoney disingenuous fake. PM bugs have been "buying" pm for decades, what makes you think we would sell in a year based on a lower price?

Compare gold to land? Maybe if you are reefering to a foreign country with property rights. In USSA, how can you compare ownership of one asset- gold, with the rental of another asset- land? Especially when the landlord can increase the rent at any time to any level of his whim?

Your posts are nonsensical. The only thing I get from your posts is that you are talking down to us and you must think we are stupid.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 02:28 | 2444552 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture



Gold? I'd rather have cash money USD.

Fine, go ahead, we'll enjoy watching whatever wealth you have in those dollars bleed away as dollars continue their steady debasement ...50% in just the last few years by the way.

There won't be any deflation.  The dollar will not get more valuable in the future.   Steadily losing value is the future.

But whatever, keep those dollars, no problem, we'll take the gold.


Sun, 05/20/2012 - 02:47 | 2444592 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

You would honestly rather put cash into something today at a higher price then you can get it in the near future? Wow I don't really know what to say. The post your replying to did not insinuate to hold cash forever. Just that cash in today's environment is the best place to be. How's that 40$+ silver working out for ya...could buy 3 ounces today for the price of 2 ounces not very long ago. A fool and his money are easily parted.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 03:14 | 2444639 Colonel
Colonel's picture

It depends on your investment horizon. Ever see a gold price chart from 2000 to 2012? Metals are long term investments and as long as the Bernanke keeps up with QE3,4 etc... goldbugs will just sit back and enjoy the ride up.  Thanks for playing.


 Oh yeah almost forgot... BTFD!

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 03:29 | 2444656 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

Yeah the chart looks quite similar to a housing market chart of around the same time period only ending sooner or tech stocks pre2000. If you bought early and unloaded in the 40's like I did you made a great profit...however if you never stopped buying not only did you not profit from your early purchases but your losing money on the later purchases. I understand the desire to argue agaisnt all reason to make yourself feel better about playing it wrong but that doesn't make anything better.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 03:52 | 2444674 Colonel
Colonel's picture

You stick with the butt wipe bankster boy and I'll stick with the "ancient relic".

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 04:22 | 2444687 BenLightYear
BenLightYear's picture

And in the short term in this climate we will see who does better. I was 80% gold/silver/plat/copper until recently. I believe in allocating a portion of investment into metals to hedge against the portion you have in cash. I however do not believe in buying something that is overpriced and metals were and still are. I'm curious how the almost 50% hit you took on your purchases from the highs are doing for ya? Or the 33% drop in just the recent short term? I started buying silver when you could buy 90% at a nice discount too spot. I'm assuming long before you ever made your first purchase. I wasn't lucky enough to unload in the high 40's because I really thought we would see 60$ an ounce and I planned to dump in the mid to high 50's. Sadly I got stuck dumping between 42-45. Still made a pretty damn nice return. And I am much looking forward to buying some of it back at half that price 20-23$ in a month or so. In case you miss what I'm saying I'll explain it simply. I sold my shit and gonna buy it back at half price. Soon we will come out of this ugly cycle and the trend will turn back upwards. I will admit if you intend too hold it for 20 years buying at 40$ you will still profit. However only profit half as much as you would have if you unloaded at 40 and bought back in at 20.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 10:01 | 2444963 ThirdWorldDude
ThirdWorldDude's picture

You just hold on to your bucks, Bennie-boy, and wait for the price to drop. It's a commin' any ol' day now. Recovery's just around the corner...

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 10:30 | 2445011 IrritableBowels
IrritableBowels's picture

I see you've discovered the vain, self up-arrowing feature ZH offers...

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:47 | 2445342 silvermaister
silvermaister's picture

you realy are retard Benny !!! 

Please sell your silver vase too !!


Sun, 05/20/2012 - 07:07 | 2444759 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

There can be deflation and inflation at the same time, depending on what you own. There can be inflation when holding currency, while there can be deflation when holding gold. And actually that is what is most likely to continue, as it has been going on for as long as fiat currency exists. Eventually gold, silver and other hard assets always win.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 08:54 | 2444865 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

 In a deflationary event gold will tumble like it did in 2008. Hoard cash and buy gold only once the presses get turned on...


Wow ~ a poopypants ("Mr." poopypants to all you) who can read a chart from 4 years ago (before anyone ever heard of TARP, QE1, QE2, QE18, QEx, OT, LTRO, or whatever the money printing exercise du jour is), and tell you how to trade fiat currencies...

Actually, I think he might be onto something... Might need those little cotton notes to clean up the mess coming from your ass...

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:22 | 2445291 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Gold? I'd rather have cash money USD. In a deflationary event gold will tumble like it did in 2008. Hoard cash and buy gold only once the presses get turned on - AFTER the debt destruction.


Dude, you best have a position in BOTH.

At this stage, if your not at least 50% on PM's............your nuts.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:21 | 2444183 Newsboy
Newsboy's picture

I can afford to hold my breath a long time for all this, because we have all been disappointed by twists of fate before.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:29 | 2444205 rxmitch
rxmitch's picture

stack  now load the boat  the powder is worthless NO guarantee 1400 gold will be  avalable.

get it  before $2000 $3000  1550 1650  not a concern

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 10:41 | 2445028 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

I keep loading the boat & it keeps going to Davy Jones Locker... I guess I'll need a bigger boat...

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:32 | 2444209 TorchFire
TorchFire's picture

Bought a 1960 20 Drachma coin just for laughs last week. Suprisingly, it contained more than 1/5 ounce of silver. Paid just $3.  Apparently the dealer was unaware than anything associated with Greek currency could have any real value.  Amazing what central bankster's destructive psychology can do to twist a weak mind into false beliefs about value. Amazing what Greece could now be if they had PM underlying their historic currency.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:44 | 2444240 kekekekekekeke
kekekekekekeke's picture

I'm tired of stacking silver, I decided I'm going to stack junk gold jewelry from now on.  Any tips? What should I look for? 18kt, 14kt?

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 23:41 | 2444374 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture


not a bad thought

I'd go for rings. Lots of advice on you tube about testing..

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 00:03 | 2444405 kekekekekekeke
kekekekekekeke's picture

cool, will check out rings next.  Been mostly buying stuff I want to wear on eBay for a slight premium (say melt+$30 for a necklace) but want to accumuluate as much as possible/hedge against confiscation.  What kind of rings? Does white gold yellow gold matter (I prefer yellow) is 18kt a good idea or is 14kt better?


also if I need to bail out of the US I figure I'll just get blinged up and hop on a plane

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