This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
The American Foreclosure Process Has Ground To A Halt
Something funny happened in the aftermath of the US fraudclosure settlement, in which millions of backlogged housing units were supposed to enter the foreclosure process and begin the clearing of the nearly 9 million housing units in shadow inventory: nothing. Because as RealtyTrac disclosed overnight, in April the US saw a mere 188,780 foreclosures events of various type (NOD, auction, REO) take place. Why is this number significant? Because it is the lowest in 5 years, despite shadow inventory in the US now being virtually the highest ever. But, but, "this is precisely what the foreclosure settlement was supposed to prevent" one may ask... That would be correct. Next question. In other words, not only did banks get away scott free from being litigated to the 7th circle of hell, but for them the "profitable" business model continues to be one where house lending is largely irrelevant. And why not: with NIMs are record lows, banks couldn't care less if the houses and marked down loans against them in the asset pool go up or down. The real money is made elsewhere: like hedging the IG9. In the meantime for everyone else hoping to get a true clearing price on housing and millions in units in shadow inventory being finally absorbed by the market: good luck. Not only has the foreclosure process in America ground to a complete halt but as the second chart below shows, the time to liquidation once a property enters 60 day-delinquent status just hit an all time high: that's right, the average time during which a deadbeat can occupy a home without payment if they so choose is 31 months. Thank you central planning politburo and USSA.
From RealtyTrac:
Time from delinquency to liquidation - all time record.
As BofA explains:
A streamlined foreclosure process should result in faster liquidations, which means a pickup in the flow of distressed inventory into the market. This would weigh on prices in the near term, but speed up the eventual recovery. However, countering the efficiency on the part of servicers are the delays by courts in the judicial states. It takes 31 months for a loan to be liquidated once it becomes 60 days delinquent in judicial states versus 24 in non-judicial. There have been efforts to improve the process in states like New York and Florida, but the delays remain.
And finally, what does this really mean for that most important thing - prices. Well, as the chart below shows, one splitting housing into the four constituent categories: non-distressed (i.e., no motivated seller), through short-sale, move-in ready REO, and finally damaged REO (very, very, very motivated seller), the real price for the average home is between $100k and $250k. As more and more Americans, both at the individual and institutional level become motivated sellers, the more the dark blue line will drop lower toward the orange line at the very bottom.
Sorry "housing bottom" callers: you were wrong. Again.
»
- 19460 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
- advertisements -
There is nothing wrong with your television set.
Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling transmission. If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper. We will control the horizontal. We will control the vertical. We can roll the image, make it flutter. We can change the focus to a soft blur or sharpen it to crystal clarity. For the next hour, sit quietly and we will control all that you see and hear. We repeat: there is nothing wrong with your television set. You are about to participate in a great adventure.
You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to
— The Outer Limits.
You know what else has ground to a halt?/ Bank closures.
Last year there were at least four a week, mostly in CA/FLA/GA. Now they skip a week or two but have moved further North.
I recall last year someone mentioned that whoever was backing the buyers on the closures were running out of cash.
No more backing, all closures become permanent.
UHOH.
Lots of very angry people with no hope of ever receiveing their hard earned savings.
And we have this
http://beforeitsnews.com/story/1962/814/Banks_Notified_By_DHS_Of_Unannou...
Banks Notified By DHS Of Unannounced Warrantless Looting Of Personal Accounts Or Safe Deposit Boxes
The Last Official Act of Any Government is to Loot the Nation...
According to in-house memos now circulating, the DHS has issued orders to banks across America which announce to them that "under the Patriot Act" the DHS has the absolute right to seize, without any warrant whatsoever, any and all customer bank accounts, to make "periodic and unannounced" visits to any bank to open and inspect the contents of "selected safe deposit boxes."
Further, the DHS "shall, at the discretion of the agent supervising the search, remove, photograph or seize as evidence" any of the following items "bar gold, gold coins, firearms of any kind unless manufactured prior to 1878, documents such as passports or foreign bank account records, pornography or any material that, in the opinion of the agent, shall be deemed of to be of a contraband nature."
DHS memos also state that banks are informed that any bank employee, on any level, that releases "improper" "classified DHS Security information" to any member of the public, to include the customers whose boxes have been clandestinely opened and inspected and "any other party, to include members of the media" and further "that the posting of any such information on the internet will be grounds for the immediate termination of the said employee or employees and their prosecution under the Patriot Act."
If people have their emergency money in a safe deposit box or an account in a bank that closes, they will not be allowed into the bank to get it out. They can knock on the door and beg to get in but the sheriff’s department or whoever is handling the closure will simply say “no” because they are just following orders.
Deposit box and account holders are not warned of the hazards of banking when they sign up. It is not until they need to get their cash or valuables out in a hurry that they find themselves in trouble.
Rules governing access to safe deposit boxes and money held in accounts are written into the charter of each bank. The charter is the statement of policy under which the bank is allowed by the government to do business.
These rules are subject to change at any time by faceless bureaucrats who are answerable to no one. They can be changed without notice, without the agreement of the people, and against their will.
People can complain but no one will care because this is small potatoes compared to the complaints that will be voiced when the executive order that governs national emergencies is enforced.
You know what else has ground to a halt?/ Bank closures.
You calling that a trend based on a 2-week period?
http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html
While it is definitely not positive that there are still millions of foreclosures that will eventually occur, having them spread out will allow the market to deal with them more effectively. In addition to the homes in default and not yet foreclosed, there are some ~700k that have been foreclosed and not resold back into the market yet. That's down from the peak, but still is a lot of units. The longer the market has to absorb those, the better chance it has of maintaining price levels which is important to break the downward spiral cycle of strategic-default-due-to-being-hopelessly-underwater.
Oh, and use caution in aggregating Realty Trac data, any time you are counting units by stage you risk some double counting over time. Yesterday's NOD is today's REO and such.
You know what else has ground to a halt?/ The equity :: USD FX :: Gold correlation ...
Slow Mo, and well controlled, capitulation if there ever be one for sure. The end of our dear dear "supply restricted price fixing fiat inflation pumper" market, or so it seem. A threshold moment, indeedy! What if currencies stop trading as commodities? Real change you can beleive in, all over again!
This weekend, overnight gold "looked" to have started trading like it has during US markets. Publicly pressured German PMs are asking the D-Bunder to repatriate German gold. Required audits of German gold have slipped. D-Bunder replied, "don't worry, what is not here is being secured in the US by the NYC FED, France, and (thank the tiki), UK banks, and besides it will be so costly to bring it back". Right .... China received some physical while back, rumors were the bars were tungsten tainted. Not much since. Were rumors true, must ask, if me was China, would me make noise or would me be quiet. There's a good argument to be made that the best approach would be silence.
Germans want their gold back. Possible construct is those that are alleged to be securing the gold don't have all on hand and maybe flooded the futures counter with short paper to "fix" an affordable price and accumulate what they owe the Germans. Must not forget the Morgue has a metal ware house in the shadows of UK's financial district - and the Morgue ain't shy about co-mingling - not one bit. It seem the market realized that shtick was being played today. Very complicated.
It's like trying to understand the utility of a PE print as a tool to assess a bank stock. When the f*ck did banks get into producing tangible consumer goods?
Residential real estate is an issue - but the the elephant in the room is commercial. Have noted the rush to boiler plate gads of nail salon hive strip malls has waned, there ain't no way to say what the SBA is doing now, besides, all the punch out mail salon hives are empty. Whose paying the SBA coupons and with what?
And the winner of the best "attempt to lip stick a dead cat bounce into a FTSE close dip" category goes to the HFT mills dutifully psyop-ing for the "Streets" white shoe boys' social centers. They did a fantastic job this week. Didn't they? So good in fact, that even CNBC's 6 loyal viewers nodded through the fact that the gold print was obviously dramatically diametrically diverging to the indexes.
Year or two back a Bloomberg hack, in best lackluster lambaste "call to trade" retail chumming narrative "this" economy allows the B-Team to purchase, concluded commiserated, and confided, in absolution, the USD carry had gone the way of the once lauded distinction of price to value. The inverted dollar carry is dead. Next. Right ...
Early in week, CNBC market marionettes, were hawking builder paper garnished with housing start up print, without the boring nonsensical, though consequential spec to sold breakouts, and, the whopping 3.8% refi rate. Later, when the 6 CNBC viewers all had to take a crap, an RSS bannered flash reveals requests for permits were down.
Whispered in the wind lip sync is the old gray mare, NBC. ain't what she used to be. Maybe the market crew can write for the "B-Team"? Orphan play - cumcast?
No more 24/7 face-book pre-post IPO snake oil chants from the "Snatching Your Money" crew? Not yet anyway ..
Ta - Da- DaaaaaaaL Star spangled the trailers, the hype, the back takes, the book, the movie all churning and drumming down to tomorrows ringing of the bell ritual thingie by the Zuck!
Click ad bid/asks are dropping like flies on a turd! How does this reader pro port basis of claim? Well, a dear friend, neighbor, one time Series 7, and now true believer advocate parishioner of the "How to Make Millions On the Internet" church, came by to sly some product for placement and engineering to push page rankings. So I checked it out. There are zillions of these guys - they're like an army of stealth hari krrishna droids - all using the same methods and pitch techniques that fired his eyes, It's sad. This "community" has no product, Burns cash to sell stuff as affiliates. Those click ads in the search engine, most likely, those ads, were placed by a parishioner. Easy to tell. Clicking the ad delivers a "page" that will not forward you to the product page unless you enter an email address. Should you opt not to enter an email (i always use pat robertson's), a nag screen prevents an exit - sometimes it offers to lower the price: IF YOU JUST ENTER AN EMAIL. Sometimes, the click delivers the browser to a east-euro CSS mouse::over CDO parser and illegally grabs your email from your desktop.
The only people making money in this universe of click ad email harvesting scheme are the barkers selling "How to Make Millions On The Internet in 20 Minutes" content barkers - everybody else is waiting to sell that first email list (once they get 10 or more).
It's a fake market. Click placement prices are dropping like a 42ed street crack wh*re's jaw at the site of a 20 dollar bill! Facebook sells ad placement. Facebook is a sells user harvested data.
The purchase till you drop schlop is over - harvest all you ant - - no guarantee the reap will convert. No guarantee the ad placement game will dry except for "real" merchant providers.
Who wants to be Grouponed (again)?
Soon Tim Geithner wiill announce that "gold held in private hoards serves no useful purpose under present circumstances." . Which is what Secy of Treas. Henry Morgenthau said in 1933 when Franklin Roosevelt declared gold as contraband.
Only if Saudi Arabia starts asking for gold for oil first.
On a long enough timeline, everyone gets Corizned.
You misspelled Corzine.
I follow that trend closely. You are correct. Not only have closures fallen, but new bank openings haven't been allowed in over 2 years. It's similar to that ZH article about how the dollar will die with a whimper not a bang. The FDIC is slowly nationalizing the banking sector and too few people are educated enough about banking regulations (or simply don't care) to understand the long-term consequences. I'm guessing the FDIC et al have orders to slow down the number of failures until after November. Rest assure they will pick back up after Barry gets his second term locked up. I'm just trying to figure out the next catalyst that will get the pace back to where it should be. The Lehman part deux, if you will.
Looting of safety-deposit boxes has taken place here in the UK as well:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/justice/1239179/Police-raid-safety-deposit-boxes-in-London-for-illegal-cash-as-part-of-money-laundering-investigation-called-Operation-Rize.html
Police raids on safe deposit boxes of suspected/known criminals is not "looting"
"Police raids on safe deposit boxes of suspected/known criminals is not "looting"...."
We are ALL suspected criminals as far as the TPTB are concerned......
Police raids on safe deposit boxes of suspected/known criminals is not "looting"
+Soap GF
Fuck the Corrupt LAW!
Gully...all the arguing back and forth on here about foreclosure/home ownership pales in comparison to what you just posted about DHS and what they can do under the Patriot ACT. MY BLOOD IS BOLINIG!
States, MA and CA to name two, have been looting banking accounts and safety boxes for years. If you do not have activity on your account, the banks notify the states and you. Then you've got a limited time to act or the state will come in and seize everything. Note the banks participation in the process.
your mobility to better yourself will be recorded in the credit rating agencies for a better tommorow, if however your sixty years of age, we highly recommend a kennedy rocking chair
Does the rocking chair come with access to Marilyn Monroe in the basement swimming pool?
Lay-Z-Boy here I come!
Cpl Hicks
You understand that under the new and improved US recommended weight standards Marilyn would be Obese.
http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2009/04/marilyn-monroe-was-fat-at-least-...
Marilyn Monroe Makes Celebrity “Fat List” (At least she would according to today’s absurd standards)http://www.fatnutritionist.com/index.php/the-body-of-marilyn-monroe/
The Body of Marilyn Monroehttp://bluecentric.com/?p=39864
Let’s Discuss: Marilyn Monroe & The “Big Girl” MythToday's absurd standards? Have you been in Anytown, USA? I'm a reasonably tall and built guy, and I routinely see girls who outweigh me (IE over 200lbs) but are no where near my height or build. I can assure you that Ms Monroe would get a lot more attention then the leviathans that stride the earth now. No, people in the USA are straight up fat, you don't need some gov standards, so long as you have eyes. I'll even concede that the "healthy" diet that the gov and media says is wrong, doesn't make them any less rotund.
Why did you link to a page (the last one) that refutes your own argument? BMI of 22-23 is right in the ideal weight range by today's standards.
Dude, there is a fucking LOT wrong with my television set.
From Calculated Risk, a long term housing bear that just recently turned bullish:
I reviewed some of the reasons that there might not be a huge flood (foreclosures). It is still early, but a combination of more short sales, more modifications, REO-to-rentals (including banks holding more REOs as rentals), underwater homeowners refinancing with HARP, and the slow process in judicial states will probably keep this from being a massive flood.
A very simple way to spot a moron:
they seriously believe that a 4% foreclosure rate in America brought down the entire global economy.
(Morons appear to know as much about securitization and credit derivatives, and naked short selling thanks to DTCC's Stock Borrow Program, and the Investment Company Act, and... as the witless fool, Bernanke.)
So, unemployed through no fault of their own = "Deadbeat"?
Let's not forget who created this ungodly mess.
Not that I support the bankers, but lots of greedy houseflippers aren't exactly entirely innocent.
The voters, for allowing it to happen under their own noses through their vast ignorance of economics?
In the end, that's the culprit -- the false God of Democracy knocked Liberty from its perche, and so we all suffer. Self-made deadbeats, and we don't even know it.
Gender-regardless, I think I'm in love
Neither are normal people who decided to not keep anything in the piggy bank for a rainy day... If, by and through purchasing a home, you put yourself in a risky position, where any reasonably expected loss of income could cause you to be bankrupt, then you're also to blame. HOME OWNERSHIP IS NOT A RIGHT.
This is EXACTLY what the nanny state breeds... ninnies. How could they have known that if they lost their job, they couldn't pay their mortgage anymore? Really? Give me a break.
Whenever a failure of this magnitude occurs, it can't possibly be the fault of a single party...
Prosecute the fucking fraud at all levels and all this shit fixes itself. People of all stripes and incomes have lived without any real fucking consequences for their bad behavior. Implementing these consequences can be done in a number of ways, but it will get done regardless of whether humanity pulls it's collective head out of it's own ass or not. Nature makes no fucking promises regarding your survival and having your bonus cut from 50 million to 25 million is not a real consequence asshole.
Yep... the same folks that end up filing for bankruptcy will magically one day find more affordable home prices staring them in the faces... the problem is that the only way these things become more affordable is to develop consistent governance (i.e. bring back the rule of law) and allow failures to be treated as such... there are too many system saving mechanisms and safeguards to disregard their meaning... life will go on...
HOME OWNERSHIP IS NOT A RIGHT.
You're absolutely right, dochetard, only the ultra-rich should own all the land.
Only those who are descended from the ultra-rich should be born to land.
And only governments, bought and paid for by multinationals, like those in America, Cambodia and throughout Latin America, should be allowed to steal land from their citizenry and dispossess them.
John Wanamaker, the last American businessman who, although becoming more conservative the older he got, at least spawned true, as Wanamaker's son financially supported the publication of Henry George.
false dilemma.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
I love me a good logical fallacy.
Beats thinking. That's hard!
GENIUS!
(Repeated for Machodouche)
A very simple way to spot a moron:
they seriously believe that a 4% foreclosure rate in America brought down the entire global economy.
(Morons appear to know as much about securitization and credit derivatives, and naked short selling thanks to DTCC's Stock Borrow Program, and the Investment Company Act, and... as the witless fool, Bernanke.)
Ad hominem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
No, not only the ultra rich, only the people who can budget well enough to save up a 20% down payment. That's how it was in the 70s and 80s, and with 13% mortgages and people did fine. If you spend all your money on iCrap and restaurants and good times, then you can't afford a house. If you can delay gratification and save up 20% down payment, congratulations.
Unfortunately, the past 30 years have seen really hardcore anti-savings policies from the government. If you want people to act a certain way, the smart thing to do is provide incentives, rather than punishment, for taking the course of action you prefer.
Continuing to rob the savers and pretending it's their fault when they wise up isn't going to help.
Keep junking me all you want, but there is a fundamental misunderstanding regarding the speculative nature of purchasing a home WITH LEVERAGE. In the end, to not blame homebuyers in general is to give credibility to the notion that "home prices never go down." Well, that's nothing but bullshit...
Now, we clearly have to give credit to where it is also due, e.g. the government, TBTF, fly by night mortgage lenders, et al, but to not include general homeowners on the list is... to ignore a necessary component in how we correct this matter in the future.
Spot on. Only thing I would add is that the buyers were pretty much forced into leverage with how housing became finnancialized. Same with college tuition, autos, hell even furniture nowadays.
So the bankers have a larger share of guilt.
If there was not so much leverage in the housing sector, foreclosure would not even be a problem. Merely the fulfilling of a contract. But since "homeowners" needed leverage to buy one, and then the banks or originators then leveraged the mortgages, the prices of houses shot up, feeding the bubble.
Biggest lesson is that whenever ANYTHING is fractionally reserved, it will eventually blow up.
pods
All the while, honest practitioners were run out of business, be it the appraiser who refused to inflate to the underwriter who demaned complete documentation.
None of it could've happened though without the blessings of the criminal cartel running the ponzi. Gresham's Law operates on many levels, it seems. Not only does it displace honest money, but honest work as well.
No one was forced into leverage.
You make x.
The debt service is y.
z covers your other expenses and some money to set aside for savings
x minus y minus z.
If the result is negative, you don't buy the house.
It's what responsible adults do. I know a couple who took home less than their mortgage payment. And they blamed the banks. Fuck them. I'm glad they got blown out. They did it to themselves.
I live in NYC and I sold my apartment in 2004 and have rented ever since. I won't buy until the prices come down further. I'm not a financial genius. I'm an adult.
How's this for fun?
Joe and Jane six-pack walk in to your nice fancy bank and combined they make X (based on IRS Form 4056 T) and want to buy a house "worth" Y (based on lenders agent appraisal).
Lend them 3Y (because ooo it'll be worth 5Y next month...it's a steal...we're experts letting you in on a secret) and insure it against default for 30Y and forget about Z.
Pull the closing costs right off the table and stuff in pocket (finance that too and fill with pork awesome).
Now comes the tricky part (you have to keep a straight face here), act surprised to learn Joe and Jane can't pay and the house was never worth Y.
Do this millions of times over then whip out the TBTF card and fling the whole mess to your cronies at Fannie and Freddie (they also have to keep straight faces).
When you go to sell Joe and Jane's old house you need clear title and you don't have it.
In trying to unravel who actually lost money, it might be learned that Joe and Jane also forced you to break every god damned NY securities law in the book and the debt is now unsecured.
Throw reckless moral hazard scourges Jane and Joe down the well and get a nice bonus to boot. That's what responsibe adult banks do.
Chunga, I don't think it's that simple. It's not an either or thing... You're leaving off the part where Joe and Jane knew they couldn't afford it, but didn't care because they could worry about that later... all Jane was worried about was that nice new granite countertop and Joe had his mind on Jane's woman parts (or the withdrawal of those woman parts should Joe fail to procure said countertop). Joe and Jane just took out their ruler and drew a straight line up for what that home was going to be worth...
It took two to tango... or, actually, it took the whole village on this one... but, the point is the same.
A lot of the same psychology went into upper level education. And by that, I mean that people viewed access to credit as the end all be all achievement in life... All I have to do is borrow into prosperity and whatever assets I purchase (education) will have to increase in value... right? This is objectively unreasonable thinking... this type of thinking is not the fault of shyster ass banksters... who totally suck in their own right. [this micro aspect also spilled over into the macro and is fairly representative of our government's activities].
Ok, that is true that it took two to tango.
The problem I have is that Joe and Jane are taking the haircut buzz-saw style and the lenders got a lifetime supply of Rogaine.
What's worse...borrowing your way to prosperity or lending (with no risk/down-side) to prosperity?
Remember, these experts were willing to conduct flash-bang closings and would pack up their Caddy's and come to the borrower.
The money was looking for people. Besides, these lenders (fast and loose with that term) raced off and broke NY security law[s] right out of the gate.
Fraud in the factum can never be undone and the titles are popped.
Well, Joe and Jane have been feasting on the staying in the underwater mcmansion without paying the fiddler teet...
I think the basic argument you're presenting is that Joe and Jane aren't as good at stealing as "systemically important" institutions and their regulatory captured counterparts... that Joe and Jane accepted peanuts for the ruin of their nation and futures... (the law doesn't care about the quality of consideration)... too bad... better luck next time.
The problem that you have is the moral hazard created from the nanny state/farcism we call a government... it's going to continue until the system breaks and then, in its ashes, we're going to do the same fucking thing... over and over again. Every 60-80 years or so... again and again. The gist is that Joe and Jane ALWAYS take the haircut. In every iteration of the matrix, Joe and Jane LOSE. This is eternal... [just like peak oil, we also have limited capacity for creation and ingenuity]. Humanity has not stumbled upon the answer yet...
Yup, I've cast my lot with David.
Given the opportunity to join Goliath; I like to think I would refuse on pain of death as a matter of principle.
To convict David of a moral hazard, while excusing Goliath of massive securities crimes just ain't right in my book [fwiw].
Absolutely. This is the quandry though... fine, we won't recognize the loss (err whatever is left after collecting a few times over on derivatives, but who's counting?) and you can stay in the place for a while?
I really don't think we've excused anyone... we just haven't yet talked ourselves into what has to happen to fix it... it's coming though.
But yes, absolutely correct... the pain should be shared... and, realistically, the pain should be shared in proportion to the booboo and well... J6P, by definition, doesn't have the wherewithal to make as big of a booboo...
PS, I'm not sure why this fitness singles girl is showing me her tits.
I think this discussion thread has smoldered out but here goes even if nobody is reading...
If every Jane and Joe had an understanding of how New York Law affects the Securitized New York Common-Law REMIC Trusts in re: Note and Mortgages I think they would stop paying in mass.
All assignments of the Note and conveyances of the Mortgage were required by *law* to take place within 90-days of the start-up date of the Pool.
If that did not occur (and there are mountains of evidence to prove that it did not) it is game over and it is dead. Bury it.
Subsequent frauds heaped upon that initial one are just further insult.
Alleged lenders know they can never demonstrate a valid enforceable right to foreclose. It cannot ever be "assigned" back in to that 90 day period because it is an impossibility.
The lazy susan of fabricated, forged documents, robo-signing, etc. all stem from this fact. There is no allonge on earth that can travel back in time.
As an officer of the court I'm sure you have an appreciation for this. Making a determination on how morally hazardous either party may or not be is irrelevant.
No one should get a "hall pass" from breaking the law simply because they have broken it on an institutional level so many times the sky will fall.
These creeps made trillions of dollars on this securitization swindle (legally and fatally broken within 90 days of inception) and none of them are in prison.
Were I to use their model and illegally assign something to myself just once I would immediately be charged with larceny.
So I see the buggy-whipping of Jane and Joe as entirely destructive and unnecessary.
However, as Oscar Wilde once said "It's not whether you win or lose it's how you place the blame".
PS: I love tits LOL!
"Spot on."
Negative, zero information voter, spot off!
You completely ignore the breakdown of those who purchased those leveraged items: (1) upper top-sixth: corporations, (2) upper-second sixth: wealthy individual speculators, (3) upper third-sixth: corporate house flippers, (4) upper fourth-six: wealthy individual house flippers, (5) upper fifth-sixth: those who could afford seond and third homes for alternate revenue streams, and (5) the final-sixth: the actual residential home buyers.
"...misunderstanding regarding the speculative nature of purchasing a home WITH LEVERAGE. "
I see, so peddling hundreds of trillions of worthless credit derivatives is perfectly logical and rational?
Only, to complete morons, criminals and stooges.....
And that 70% plus number of American-based corporations and multinationals who avoid paying any federal taxes?
not to be a broken record, but...
false dilemma.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
I'll also add these for good measure:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ignoring-a-common-cause.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/two-wrongs-make-a-right.html
LOL @ "reasonably expected loss of income."
Like theft through inflation? Half-baked at best "macho-man."
Yes, what I'm saying is that if you put yourself in a precarious financial position by buying a home, then you are to blame... pretty simple... everyone acts as though the state of the economy could not have been foreseen through reasonable effort, but that is objectively unreasonable... given among other things the known fallacy of the free lunch.
How did you wake up? Trips to the public library? Private conversations with Irwin Schiff? Tax protester gatherings?
I woke up, as did most of the people waking up right now, via the internet (and ZH). This tool was not around for the vast majority of people who you accuse of being "unreasonable."
People who can't afford it are going to lose their homes. Prices will revert to true value. Markets will revert back to rationality. Fact. But this pumping of fists at private loss and arrogance at the fact that you are so above the massive structural deficiencies of our economic system is bullshit.
If Bruce Lee knew you were using his image as your avatar, he'd kick you in the face so fast it would look like you fainted.
So you're telling me that you were unaware of any upswing in housing prices at the time you bought yours? Were you aware of offshoring? Did you run any contingency analysis where if you lost your job, then you could afford only X? Did you have any other debt at the time you purchased the house? Were you aware of the home mortgage deduction? Did you know of anyone taking out home equity loans?
The simple fact is that people didn't want to see... not that they couldn't... the latter should possibly be protected by law, the former... not so much.
PS, please read this: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html
You make a lot of assumptions about me by implication. All wrong by the way and have nothing to do with the systemic fraud argument I posed, of which inflation is just one side.
I'm sure you know of the ad hominem fallacy.
Appealing to popularity by taking sides with homeowners on a ZH thread? Utter bullshit. That link would apply to you, no?
you meaning everyone (but you can get over yourself). The point is that there are an incredible amount of objective and obvious clues that people should not have ignored... we chose to do so because it was convenient. Now, rather than admit we were stupid and made mistakes, we'd rather blame everyone but ourselves (banks included). They certainly have their own culpability, but we have ours as well. Denial isn't a river in egypt.
One of the key elements of fraud is REASONABLE RELIANCE. I'm sorry, but did the loan officer make you a promise regarding the value of your house (you being general, not YOU personally)? What was the fraudulent representation? Not only was there no representation... but there was no due diligence nor reasonable reliance on the part of J6P... this is not fraud... I'm sure there are some truth in lending violations (why it was made in the first place because fraud is more narrow), but I think it's a pretty shaky argument to claim any expectation of perpetual money tree out of a house is "reasonable."
Think larger.
True or false, the easy money policies under Greenspan and Bernanke caused the housing bubble? This policy itself is a representation so vast and deceptive that those who have not spent days upon days researching the topic have no clue what it even means.
True or false, the NHA, MSM, Federal Government, the Fed and almost every other avenue (besides the internet) of information being pumped to the homeowner in the past 20 years guaranteed that not only the housing market, but the US currency and the entire US "service" / tech economy was strong and/or growing? That, without the internet, people who rely on these information outlets would reasonably believe that they had stable jobs and would be able to pay off their mortgages?
The housing bubble is just a symptom of the massive fraud that is central planning, perpetrated on the global population daily.
For reasons stated above, this is not fraud... unless the specific person or entity that sold a home to someone made a representation at a relevant time that the home was to go up in value in perpetuity, then you've got nothing... aside from the fact that it is not reasonable to believe in such a remark given the person/entity making it DOES NOT HAVE THE POWER TO PERFORM (although, that won't stop it from trying).
Yes, I agree that monetary policy gave incorrect signals to the market. Yes, I agree that the nanny state has created ninnies that are incapable of self thought (presuming humans are capable of doing so). Our legal system has been changed from a bowling game with gutters to a bowling game with inflatable tubes to make it impossible to throw a gutterball (caveat emptor is largely a dead concept). So fucking what.
The point is that you cannot simply hold your nose and act contrary to objective indicators staring you in the face. The fallacy of the free lunch is no different than the force of gravity. You cannot simply decide to ignore gravity because the FED or the government or the media told you so... it's still there... as observable as ever... and impossible to ignore (unless you try really hard).
When you see housing prices skyrocket, you see people living lifestyles that the rest of the general world envies, you see people taking out home equity loans, you see every motherfucker that could never hold down a job start selling mortgages and becoming real estate agents, you see people believing that the price CANNOT go down on an asset (this, in and of itself, should cause significant warning bells to sound), you wonder how you could get financing ("it was a miracle"), you see decades of offshoring, you have foreigners doing all of your menial tasks, you see decades of trade deficits, you have to "stretch" to make the payments but you think you can swing it, you believe you (and everyone else) can make money without actually producing or doing anything, then you should know better...
Here is the question that rules all others, if housing went up, who would receive the benefit? Now, what about when housing tanked, who would receive the loss? This is the elephant in the room that J6P does not want to admit... J6P became a speculator in a world that he had no fucking idea about... this is idiocy... greed... narcissism... and, again, it should not be rewarded in the slightest. [likewise, the donkeys who lent to j6p and their assignees need to be wiped out as well... as well as monies siphoned in the interim clawed back].
it can't possibly be the fault of a single party...
Kinda sounds like you're blaming 90% of the US population. That's a good approach--very democratic of you, anyway.
The deal was a contract. If the buyers don't pay the mortgages, the banks get the houses. I don't see how there's any "failure" at all, from your perspective.
Unless the purpose of a housing market is just to continue increasing real-estate valuations. It has certainly failed at that.
Well... the banks failed to find credit worthy borrowers and, as a result, have come to the public teet for saving (me)... this is a failure. In other words, the banks dont get the houses either... whoever has the wherewithal at the firesale gets the houses... presuming of course that their purchase proceeds aren't spoils from ill activities...
If you're saying the banks need to be shut down and restructured because their reckless lending practices has put them out of business, I agree.
But they own the government, so I don't think that's coming.
Not to channel b9k9, but the government owns the banks... your cause and effect is backwards.
And yes, the banks and the mechanisms of prolifigate governmental spending need to be stopped... (and they will be since central planning ALWAYS fails and rudimentary math always wins).
I'm not ready to accept that for someone with 20% down it was reasonable to expect to be unable to sell fast enough to avoid foreclosure even with nothing in the bank. I'll concede the 0 down guys, but by now there are lots of 20, even 30% equity folks going under.
Even during the 30s, there were few places where an actual house in a actual neighborhood (IOW not Florida swampland) could not be unloaded at 20% off the peak.
What does the fact that you've paid 20% down have to do with how an asset's price can change?
If you've got 20% down on a house, then you could bet your ass you'd have been foreclosed upon lol... that's the problem... if there's equity, they'll take it from you... if not, you'll get to stay there forever.
Excepting that the majority of those house flippers were corporate, with the next largest group being wealthy individuals.
Sorry, but that Business Round Table and USCoC (Chamber of Commerce) talking point can't gain much traction when the facts are well represented.
Flipping houses isn't a job?
All these ZHers, every time they type "homeownership" or "owning a home" sign onto the industry scam.
It's a house. It's not a home. It's house ownership, two words, not one.
It always was.
Ok, who exactly enabled the "greedy houseflippers"? Secondly, what is the ratio of greedy houseflippers to regular folks struggling to keep their families intact while scambling for employment to hold things together?
Can't know for sure but from what I see on the ground there is a big spread between these groups.
boy, the socialists are coming out of the woodwork to post on this article ...
If you had actually taken as much as 1 second to read my previous posts, you'd see I'm not exactly "socialist", I even posted something further down with regards to why bank don't step up the foreclosure process.
But hey, just because you disagree with me HEY LOOK THERE A SOCIALIST!!!eleventyone11
I just notice that it was your post I originally commented on. Sheesh.
LOL, I wasn't calling your post socialist .... rather the responses that you got to your original post (which got a thumbs up from me)
So... you're like me then? An anti-socialist?
I'm no socialist fella- not a bleeding heart liberal either. What I do support is what makes sense. None of that going on anywhere.
Sadly, there is no woodwork left. It rotted due to lack of maintenance, and ultimately due to corruption and psychopathic global elites.
"greedy houseflippers"
By this do you mean someone trying to make a profit? Wow what a terrible thing! My buddy flipped a house here in Arizona and made 30k in 60 days. He spent 30k fixing it up at Home Depot and hring contractors.
Did I say they shouldn't be allowed to try to cash in? No, I didn't.
But the potential loss SHOULD be on your shoulders, and all this finger pointing OOH LOOK THERE EVIL BANKS when it eventually goes wrong. when there was plenty of questionable behaviour in every other part of the system, frankly is ridiculous.
The banks were reliant on "questionable behavior". They were simply shuffling paper and needed a lot of it to stuff into yield hungry pension plans. They knew these loans were garbage but did their very best to write as many as possible.
Not at one point have a defended the bankers, and I still don't, but people who knew they couldn't afford a mortgage shouldn't have penned the deal.
When I bought my house some 7-8 years ago, the "independent financial advisors" (who worked in the same office as the estate agents, some real hardcore chinese walls right there) were all trying to push me to go further into debt as "with my credit score, I could afford it".
Guess what, I stuck by my guns, because I knew if hard times came by, I'd still be able to ride out the storm.
Read Adam Smith and his thoughts about speculator vermine....
Assuming you can actually read....
The "house flippers" were the first to go. Starting in 2010 the working people started being foreclosed on. I'm pretty sure there were not millionS of "flippers". All bankers should be hung.
duplicate
Exactly, greedy American's (truthfully all humans) that, when told by a bank, that they could afford a house with No Income, No Job and No Assets (NINJA) and all would be fine, said "I think you're right! Where do I sign!" Thank you Freddie, Fannie and all you wonderful Democrats that felt it was the "right" of everyone to own a home (wow, that sounds eerily similar to the argument that it is the "right" of every American to "affordable" health insurance! Three guess what will happen there, and the first two don't count. Thank you Democrats, again, for the "rights" of all Americans...)
You ever hear the saying about the grass being greener?
Same thing about sides of the political coin.
Heads they win, tails we lose.
pods
Who was in office when the market was getting pumped up? Who was in office when the MBS and CDS shit started to hit the fan? Who said that he was a "Compassionate" conservative and bragged about a so-called Ownership Society. You're so cute. You think we've got two different political parties. We don't even have one! Its all a charade.
Yo, the victim is always to be blamed.
(God help Blythe Masters should I ever catch her wearing a short skirt.)
a continuation of a very successful scheme employed, used largely in the Vietnam era, mid-60's to early 70's
pit one group of people against another group of people
people fall for it every time, and the mis-direction gets the eyeballs away from them, the root cause, even crimes done are forgotten about
I'm in the process of selling my house here anticipating a blow off top in pricing here.
I don't know what the hope and change crowd are on, but I need some. The scotch and quaaludes isn't working anymore.
Ditto. Pulling out the equity and running away until the storm is over... will be buying ponchos.
I read your post on my new iPhone and went to my desktop as fast as I could to advise you that I think it's a mistake to sell your paid for home and rent in anticipation of a bursting housing bubble in Canada. It's like shorting APPL, the market can remain irrational longer than you can afford to be short.
What is the mechanism to drive prices higher... if the currency is being diluted and prices have hit a top, then what is the basis for not selling immediately? Sentimental attachment?
I don't know the top. It's different in each market. Perhaps vancouver has topped, but Toronto has not topped. There are still areas of Canada with double digit gains year over year. The OP knows his market better than I know his market so maybe he is right. I'm just saying think about it.
Sentimental attachment is OK. As long as you can pay the property taxes, etc. A house is mostly yours to enjoy. If I was retiring I'd look at just downsizing first before renting.
My iPhone is unlocked so at least I can cancell the cell service at any time. No 3 year commitment.
I tried to sell my house for over a year... For quite a bit less than what I paid for it. It did not go so well. I walked out
I'm just glad the mortgage was still in my ex's name, I was the co-signer.
Just how well is PrimeX doing anyways?
But... but... but... April housing starts exceeded all expectations - how can this be......
31 months X $3,850* = $119,350
One could buy a lot of iCrap with that kind of smack.
So, bullish for consumer discretionaries? Robottrader is goin' to be rich!
*Avg. mortgage P&I in my area.
that's pretty unreasonable... in much of the south, a 3/2 w/ 1500 sq ft of newer construction (w/i 5 years) on a .2 ac lot is sub $150k... going to be a lot of pain for the "built up" areas... that kind of note here would get you a 5000sq ft mansion on decent acreage...
I guess with the recovery everyone was able to start paying their mortgages now and there's no need for foreclosures...
HA!
I saw this headline pop just as the talk radio guy was saying the foreclosure inventory has finally cleared.
I guess stalled = cleared to some....
Turn off the radio or at least change the station. Talk radio is wasting your time.
My wife is a raging conservative and she likes to yell at the radio. Who am I to say no?
Besides, it's good for a laugh once in a while, as noted above.
Until you force them to recognize the losses... There are plenty of ways of doing it... all at once, x% of your book per year, etc. There needs to be an incentive mechanism to speed up the recognition process... and in a way that reduces the free lunch all around.
I also think it's important to give a thumbs up to foreclosurehamlet and chunga and other folks who have been spreading the word to foreclosure defendants (and all other interested parties) as to how to properly defend these types of lawsuits or, alternatively, have the judgments against them thrown to the curb. I think their and others' effort has had a significant impact as to how the foreclosure crisis has evolved.
The real reason is that :
MARK TO MYTH HAS TO GO TO INFINITY
Given the lack of maintenance (who's going to replace a roof if you're not paying the mortgage) and the deterioration and vandalism of the millions of vacant properties, I would hazard a guess that the book value of the average already foreclosed or to-be-foreclosed home is far less than 50% of the loan amount.
It's going to get a lot worse, before it all gets 'worser...'
There will NEVER be a recovery. Sorry to bare the bad news but, Gen X and Gen Y have no future. TPTB know this so they keep the music going as long as possible. The global "economy" is unsustainable... and thus global war and repositioning of power will take place... then, who knows what will rise from the dust. Better hope Einstein was not right about WWIII.
Deleted
Global labor rate convergence happens at some point and we grpw again. Hopefully with a standard of living halfway between current usa and brazil
If we are lucky
Then growth resumes again
Even rate convergence won't do the trick if the parasitic governments of the world retain their stranglehold upon humanity consuming wealth faster than we can produce it.
The end of the world is near.
When Barack Obama announced the US (2010) national budget for this year, we experienced unprecedented feelings. Never before had an imperialistic power moved them to pity. This is unthought-of. This year’s deficit is estimated to be $1.6 trillion and its foreign debt has gotten completely out of hand. It hits numbers that only mathematicians and astrophysicists knew existed few decades ago. There is no space for these numbers in the electronic boards so it is driven to add new elements on them.
It all started with the big crisis of 1929. The American economy reached a deadlock because of its social "pathogenesis"; a deadlock that led it to economic crisis in a different - faster- pace than the rest of the industrial forces of that time. Important decisions had to be made - mostly social - and the Whites didn't like that, especially the Whites' rulers, the Anglo-Saxons.
www.eamb-ydrohoos.blogspot.com/2010/02/ten-plagues-of-pharaoh.html
Authored by Panagiotis Traianou
The only way this makes any sense at all is if the banks know with absolute certainty that hyper-inflation is coming (via unlimited FED money printing).
If they believed there was going to be further deflation in housing prices, they would be dumping those assets like hot potatoes.
Right now it might look like all those deliquent deadbeats are "winning", but it anin't over 'til the fatcat banker sings.
Rule Number 1: Bankers always win.
When it looks like bankers might be losing, see rule number 1.
Well, keep in mind that as long as the banks don't foreclose on you, they don't have to eat the loss. Ie, if they were to foreclose on all properties, the loss would be gigantic (and most likely, fatal).
Exactly, I'm at a loss for how he got the thumbs up on that post... it's a big whoosh... likewise, if the currency is flowing like hotcakes to J6P, then HE WILL PAY THE BANK BACK AND GET TO KEEP THE HOME. Ok, so the bank makes you a loan and gets repaid in diluted currency... who wins?
Aside from the fact that the longer the charade lasts, the longer the lead the top has... meaning, if I disproportionately benefit from the status quo, then I'll want to keep it going as long as possible... (in this case, regardless of whether I am endangering my investment vehicle or institution with insolvency).
http://www.aamcompany.com/foreclosure-moratorium-a-fly-in-the-housing-ointment/
CoreLogic's report is not as pessimistic.
It’s Called Simple Arithmetic
$17 trillion
Between 2007 to 2009 American households lost $17 trillion in wealth and equity (as explained by Alan Kreuger awhile back).
$17 trillion
Between 2007 to 2009 the approximate amount pumped out to banks, private banks and corporations --- both in America and throughout the planet --- was $17 trillion.
The breakdown: $16.1 trillion from the Federal Reserve directly; $750 billion in TARP bailout funds, plus the costs paid out to various hedge funds, such as Blackrock, and Wall Street-affiliated law firms to oversee and manage those bailout funds ($150 billion).
Among American households: loss of jobs, loss of savings, loss of value in 401(k)s, loss of home and real estate value, followed by loss of credit to small businesses and companies, resulting in further loss of jobs, etc.
$17 trillion equals $17 trillion.
Simple arithmetic.
[Official Disclaimer: Some economists would argue that all the credit extended by the bailout funds, and the Federal Reserve pumping, was paid back, but the recent GAO report detailing how banks accessed other government funds to repay those TARP funds renders such assertions highly problematical.]
Recommended reading: Local Dollars, Local Sense by Michael Shuman
Oh they were buying alot of iCrap otherwise AAPL wouldn't be so effin inflated, can't wait for that hindenburg to go down, shouldn't be much longer now.
The seabed ass crack is now a giant black hole.
"playing by the rules" is for retards. Sociopaths know how to get ahead. By not paying their bills and taking money from the governemnt at every opportunity. Remember kids - "If you're not cheating, you're not really trying"
The crony crapitalists have brought on socialized housing and now with ally bank socialized cars too. Somewhat ironic.
I am wondering how long it will take for big bro to take zerohedge down under auspices of national security threat by exposing what it exposes?
On a long enough timeline, you have to stand for what you know is right. Better now than when it's far too late.
Deadbeats? 10% of the people I know resemble that remark....
Only 10%?
So in essence, we have banks colluding to stall foreclosure to try to maintain current house prices. This is going to go well..
Probably need a little to time to exchange the bad
phoney docs with better phoney docs.
Krugman says this is bullish...
The interception and destruction of the mark-to-market rule is the keystone of all this corruption that's destroying the economy and our Republic right along with it.
It's all so evil...simple greed and hubris with enough psychopathic bubblevision to pretend it won't be The End of all we hold dear.
May the Lord bless us with the ability to rip this corrupt mess asunder.
Squat-till-own.
this site comments are racist. the sun king vacationer has decreed this the most historic recovery in historic history. if you cant see it , you are racist. education is needed to bring you commentators around to believing up is down , black is white and you are wrong. maybe a cattle prod or two might help
WE LOVE YOU BIG BROTHER.....
This carpenter from MA is going to blow this out. We're talking about massive securities fraud like this earth has never seen.
Who Is Bob Marley?
This 18 page Amicus Curiae explains it very well for the MA SJC and is not going away.
Stay tuned.
Keep on fighting the fight for the good guys Chunga
Indictments are coming. Big ones.
As reported in ForeclosureRadar.com
http://www.foreclosureradar.com/foreclosure-report/foreclosure-report-april-2012
If you arent familiar with this site, it is a great tool for tracking individual properties through the foreclosure process. Popular with the investor crowd. Very sound market analysis, too.
Not a pitch, I just use the site.
Thanks for the great link, Idiot. (Some of my best friends are idiots....).
The residential real estate bottom is long and flat, as opposed to the bottom in stock declines, which are generally sharp and quick. It makes sense that this is the case, due to the nature of the both the assets, and the number and type of investors.
I don't expect any more significant price declines, except in those areas unfortunate enough to loose more jobs. According to the site that V.I. linked, investors are gobling up foreclosed properties at prices near the market value, and as many posters here noted, the banks are slow to release inventory. So, the multi-year flat bottom will continue.
Good link...thanks.
So, basically if the govt and banks agree to slow down the foreclosure process then the real estate problem disappears. Priceless "logic".
OBAMANOMICS: Standing athwart markets and yelling: STOP!
A mortgage payment is often cheaper than rent. People who bought homes when both husband and wife had stable employment with good incomes can hardly be called "deadbeats" after both are layed off and unable to find new employment in the midst of millions of others in the same boat. Having a year's worth of savings in the bank, and responsibily having managed their credit for the past 20 years is no help to them after the first year, because eventually those funds run out. If folks like these are deadbeats...well, throw some poor health your way. Find yourself a victim of the bad economy, or a host of other currently unforeseen scenarios and there goest you...you deadbeat waiting to happen.
Well, evidently it's not cheaper than free.
First, I think you're arguing the exception and not the rule...
Second, if you wait around for the market to plunge even lower, then should you have any culpability? You mean we're going to have to pay money to sell our house?!?!?!? Yes, and do it quickly to mitigate your losses. I realize that you do not WANT to do it, but it's a necessary method of asset protection.
Third, again, people buying homes on leverage is a speculative endeavor... this is EXACTLY the same argument the TBTF banks make... if the house went up in value, then we get to keep it... if it goes down in value, then let's socialize the loss... I call bullshit.
"First, I think you're arguing the exception and not the rule... "
What statistic, research or information are you basing this on...or is it just a "gut feeling"?
"Second, if you wait around for the market to plunge even lower, then should you have any culpability? You mean we're going to have to pay money to sell our house?!?!?!? Yes, and do it quickly to mitigate your losses. I realize that you do not WANT to do it, but it's a necessary method of asset protection."
I completely agree with you on this. I'm in the process of selling my house now and fortunately, I live in an area that is seemingly untouched by this whole mess. Property values have not dropped (mine has apparently seen a minimal increase in value), foreclosures are at a minimum (hardly greater than they ever were), new builds are selling and average time on the market for existing homes is about two months. I'm uncertain as to what this has to do with my taking exception to calling anyone who suffered a financial setback during these times and faced subsequent foreclosure...often in spite of being fiscally responsible...a deadbeat.
"Third, again, people buying homes on leverage is a speculative endeavor... this is EXACTLY the same argument the TBTF banks make... if the house went up in value, then we get to keep it... if it goes down in value, then let's socialize the loss... I call bullshit."
Well, most people don't have a couple hundred thousand to purchase a home outright, and never will. Are you suggesting that if a person is unable to pay cash, they forego the purchase? If I understand you correctly, that is the most absurd thing I've ever heard. If my rent is going to run $1500 a month and my mortgage would run $950 a month, in my view, the fiscally responsible thing to do is to buy a house.
Perhaps I'm completely missing your point, or perhaps we are talking about two different things. As for me, I don't think anyone should be allowed to keep anything they don't pay for. I also don't believe the TBTF banks should profit from their wrong doings. My gripe is with those labeling good, honest, and responsible people as deadbeats solely based upon the circumstances they find themselves in through no fault of their own. I am not arguing that deadbeats don't exist, and perhaps even in great numbers. It is the assumption that everyone caught up in such a situation is a deadbeat. All I can say is, I sure hope those folks pointing fingers never find themselves in a similar situation. Thinking it cannot happen is pure ego. Anything can happen.
Yes. What happened was that homeowners were faced with your example, $1500 to rent and $950 to buy. The problem is that when they decided to save money every month over the option of renting, they became speculators (on leverage). They did so out of many reasons, none of which was an examination of the fundamentals of their purchases and the possible draw backs (I realize there are exceptions, but exceptions are not worthy of discussion). I'm sorry, but our society cannot reward this type of behavior... this failure to look before we leap behavior has lead us into an incredibly bad financial position... and, an immoral one at that. This goes from the top to the bottom... and, eventually, the market forces (gravity) will catch up.
The nanny state has its consequences...
MachoMan, You and I are definately in the minority on this issue, unfortunately. Thank you for your comments. Keep telling it like it is.
'A mortgage payment is often cheaper than rent'
Than add property tax, insurance and maybe homeowners association fees...
And it can still add up less than or the same as renting, although I would never purchase a home that fell under an HOA.
I find nothing inherently wrong with home ownership. I plan to buy another one with a natural water source, lots of land to keep livestock and garden, easily defensible where I can ride out the coming collapse. (Removes Derby hat to reveal tin foil hat residing underneath.) :::grins:::