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And Now Back Down: Greek Haircut Talks Deadlocked
Well, that surge lasted all of 10 minutes.
- EU TALKS WITH BANKS ON GREEK BOND LOSSES SAID TO BE DEADLOCKED
- EU TALKS 'PAUSED' ON A DISPUTE ON INSURING RISKS OF NEW BONDS
- EU official says dispute centers on insuring risk of new bonds.
- Involuntary Greek haircuts can’t be ruled out
- EU Said to Consider Limits on EU-IMF Loans in 2nd Greek Rescue
At some point the algos now trading the EURUSD exclusively will run
out of money chasing each and every headline, a strategy that has
empirically worked precisely 0% of the time.
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Confusion Bitchez!
Sanity now! Sanity Now!
Serenity Now Serenity Now (Seinfeld)
Nah.. I've got appropriate background music for investing or trading in this market.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXZMZ-XvvzI
Hocheee Mama
Has anyone found ANY indication of WHAT TIME an announcement is expected. All I can find on Google is that this is an "Evening Summit". Does that mean they just meet till they can't stand being in the room, then come out and make something up? Or is there an expected time or timeframe in which an announcement is expected.
Seems to me like if I were them, I'd want to get it out before the US cash close, so whatever disappointment could be absorbed by more liquidity. If they have nothing to say, and say it (or is that don't say it) post-close, the futures will get hammered...
xPat
Cannot find the reference but seems to be a late evenming session that would announce results around 7 pm EST
The "announcement" will be leaked out all day long... Deadlocked, fighting, progress being made, something big may come, deadlocked again, Germany going to Mark!
When the final announcement comes after the US market closes it will be meaningless... Or, they will announce another meeting, which will also be meaninless... THERE IS NO SOLUTION, but they need to put on a convincing show!!
They just have to bullshit everyone until this Friday. Then the weekend gives them breathing room until the following Friday and so forth.
headline stuffing?
There are so many ways to fail.
Juvenal..., and Merkozy
and Cameron and O'bammy...its the end of the gravy train all round.
News churn?
Why does Tyler have a chart of AMZN up there? Oh, sorry, that's the Euro.-:)
Looks more like Netflix
Thought it was John Paulson's portfolio
tom tom cymbal
(Dah dum PSSSSSHH)
Robo's account balance?
think the talks are more dreadlocked - twisted matted coils
Arrrgh, Davey, it be the locks of dread we're seeing here.
This is confidence inspiring. August Debt ceiling redux.
And recall what happened right after the euphoric debt ceiling resolution. RoboTrader remembers it clearly when he went all in long at 12,700.
Has anyone ever seen you and Robo in the same room?
Robo is never in the same room with anyone because he is always a day late on his commitments.
The debt ceiling was was an artificial line in the sand. Europe is facing its own mortality.
... with the difference that now there are 17 morons around the table. In the U.S. debt ceiling farce, there were only two.
Who is going to issue Insurance and how do you sue for failure
In the case of the EFSF, the people issuing insurance are the same people whose default will have triggered the insurance claim in the first place.
There isn't even any real money in the EFSF pot, just Guarantees that would have to be called in (from the people who have just defaulted) to pay the insurance on their own default.
I can't wait to put all my money into that tasty deal.
Only in the bizarro-world does the hope of printing tons of money drive up your currency....and vice-versa.
Since there is no chance that any of this 'money' gets out into the hands of any actual people, therefore not having any ability to create asset distortion outside their control, it really isn't that bizarre.
You see, it's a big club and you're not in it...
Nonsense...it will trickle into the economy sooner or later. Inflation will come...just a matter of when. As for a lack of "asset distortion", I don't know what you're seeing. Seems to me that commodities are going up, up, up! The real consumer inflation is lagging but coming.
Deflation. The (hyper) inflation horizon always gets pushed further out as it never occurs.
'The real consumer inflation is lagging but coming.'
Yeah, it is coming but not now. It's a political event not monetary.
I think we're talking about the same thing: Stagflation....
OH sure its easy to talk about sunshine and leveragin'...now about those 60% haircuts for the bank debt holders, well we think we'll just keep hemming and hawing about all that.
That is where the needle meets the skin and Greece takes their medicine. Or not. All these gyrations and no one is acknowledging the 500 pound gorilla in the room.
Algos, Read this: You suck!
Gold still trading tick for tick with the Euro today.
Gold bugs should be cheering for a massive bailout and rescue fund for Greece and the rest of the PIIGS.
Copper is up big, so I wouldn't be short stocks or metals right now.
As much as Robo eats corn the long way, the correlation between equities and PMs is disturbing for those (like myself) who believe the equity market is going to get crushed.
Agreed...
I've been one of the nervous nelly gold investors who has been eviscerated and junked to hell because I've voiced concerns with the correlation of gold to other assets... and the likelihood that there are mo-mos and hedgies and what not all up in there affecting the PM market...
back in early September I put a huge chunk into CEF... I did it when the Swiss intervened in their currency thinking that would be the start of the printing bonanza, and my last chance to get into Gold/Silver... and am quite underwater on that trade now (at least on that part... I've bought CEF for years now intermittently, starting when it was around 7.65 I think... but don't quote me on that).
My strategy is now to hedge buy holding PM's and shorting the equity markets and banking cash.
My strategy is to sell all my PMs, find a time-machine, and set the dial to 1997, buy PMs, return to the future. Coda.
Are we talking paper or physical. Everyone should be concerned when all paper starts behaving the same. You will then know that the entire market is finally and completely in control of the NWO and central planners. At that point the dislocation between all things physical and paper will go fucking parabolic. I still think we have got a ways to go, but these signs are indeed disturbing.
You'll do just fine if you keep some crappy cash on hand to buy any other possible dips
That's what I plan on doing, but I'm very hesistant at these levels.
Agreed. If there's a flight to the US dollar and Treasuries, PMs might get hit very hard.
Paper trades with paper. Don't own paper, and you will be fine when the crash comes.
As a gold bug, I'm cheering for no more bailouts, and a massive crash of the global financial system. Bailouts mean gold to $8-12k. Armageddeon means gold to $50k.
...Armageddeon means gold to $50k....
So you'll die and be buried like Pharoah with your golden trinkets?
Why would I die? A failure of the financial system doesn't mean I stop eating. Please explain your assumptions.
Well, King Louis XVI didn't think he would die either. Nor did the lovely and talented Marie Antoinette. How did that whole guillotine thing work out for them?
Your argument as applied to spartan is so stupid, I threw up in my mouth and it should have been in yours.. Gold to whatever and no chance, no chance I do not die? See you in the street or better yet woods..
I'm cheering for no more bailouts, and a massive crash of the global financial system
be careful what you wish for. A major crash in the GFC could also mean war. Hard to enjoy $50k gold after a nuclear winter... .or if your loved ones are sent off to die in WW3... or if all trade breaks down and you have to go back to living how we did in the Dark Ages where a simple Strawberry is a luxury. Or if there are roving mobs trying to steal your $50k gold.
Have any of you people ever been to a place where society breaks down??? It is no picnic, even for the rich.
That said, I also cheer for no more bailouts.
You only die in WW3 if you are stupid enough to go,but it does get rid of the stupid ones thats got to be a bonus
Armageddon may also mean case of tuna to 1 oz gold.
exactly.
at least some people get it.
I swear, some of the comments around here are full retard.
Wishing for global financial crash and armageddon. For god's sake. Imbecilic not to mention sadistic and sociopathic.
War is coming after bailouts fail. At least with no further bailouts,we may get a reset WITHOUT war. A default and a financial reset would mean gold becomes the ultimate currency and financial armageddon. No where did I reference nuclear armageddon. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Spartan: first of all... I agree that we need to stop the Bailouts.
Second: financial armageddon with a global financial crash will lead to war, no matter the mechanism... regardless if it happens after failed bailouts, or before bailouts, or without bailouts.
I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth... I was trying to make you understand the implications of your words (or what I presumed your words meant).
I think many ZHers are naive to what happens if you get ARMAGEDDON. But perhaps you mean/meant something different with that word than I do... or perhaps you were just being hyperbolic with your phrasing. A default and financial reset is hugely different than Global Financial Crash and Armageddon in my opinion.
If all you wish for is world financial rebalancing... then I'm fine with that. it is needed.
You have to remember that American civilians have never seen war or been bombed , so a lot of them think its cool , I am sure they will change there mind when bombs fall on Los Angeles then " this shit just got real"
So you have a quicker, better plan to shake off all the parasites?
And you forgot mysoginistic and homophobic in your litany of labels-for-haters. Because we all know haters are bad and calm, reasoned debate is the solution.
So you have a quicker, better plan to shake off all the parasites?
no such plan exists. unfortunately, this will be a long drawn out slog to the bitter end. sucks, huh? The plan was to never let us get here in the first place. sort of like a smoker who has incurable lung cancer. They are going to die. No quicker or better plan will help. Likewise, our Global Financial System IS going down, no doubt.
but this doesn't mean I should cheer for Armageddon... much like I should not cheer for a painful death in the cancer victim. Instead, I should cheer for palliative care... to help the patient die in as comfortable and humane a way as possible.
Unfortunately for all of us, our world governments and financial overlords prefer the Armageddon approach too.
And you forgot mysoginistic and homophobic
no I didn't, because the comments were neither mysoginistic nor homophobic. But they were sociopathic and sadistic. WISHING for a global financial crash means WISHING for immeasurable harm to billions of people, so that you can profit. yep... seems to fit my sadism and sociciopathic description.
I took you for one of those "violence isn't an answer" types, hence my barb about the hater labels. Violence is another tool in the bucket and at this point it's the last tool that's going to work IMHO. Anything else is simply a delay that will cost us interest if we sign onto it.
I don't necessarily sing hossanahs of praise for what it's going to take to bring the playing field back closer to sane, I would say that I'm resigned to the trials ahead though. My biggest hope is that someone gets marching orders a la Josua and gets to clean the Augean stables of the upper level parasites, the ones that got us here. Root them out of their enclaves at AI and similar places and rid the world of them.
it's the more juvenile mindset. the sub-set of man-babies around here. you know the type; no wife, no kids. no life.
it does not matter, they think, if it all goes to schitt, because, they already have nothing.
Another know-it-all that uses ad hominem and cannot debate the point at hand.
that's an odd statement coming from you V. The boys who last used that isignia weren't exaclty the Debate Society champions, they used the older A to B linear solution. And they had to be shut down by using that same A to B.
well-played sir.
I just want no more bailouts. Will it mean the end of life as we know it? Sort of, but it also means that the markets fall to sustainable levels and we can have real organic growth.
yes. And no more bailouts would not lead to cataclysm. It would lead to a depressing seventies like decade, the result of a necessary and logical deleveraging. Period. This is all nothing more than theater--fearmongering to preserve banker salaries and bonuses. More bailouts on the other hand, likely will lead to disastrous hyperinflation.
What planet are you from? "Armageddon" could mean anything, except higher gold prices. When Europe cranks up the printing presses, then gold will go balllistic. When the QE stops, the inflationary trend will stop just as quickly and reverse itself, as it has every single time. There is a giant hole in the tire called an energy shortfall. Eventually every CDS trigger will have be tripped. Eventually, everyone will have their pockets turned out, unable to pay anyone else back. Eventually, the deflationary nightmare that is slavering at our heels will catch up to us and devour us.
When that happens, a 20-dollar gold piece will be worth 20 dollars.
yes... but the $20 paper fiat will be worth one square of ass wipe.
Hobotrader!
What do you care about gold? You certainly dont own any. Just stick to your orphans and widows paper trade portfolio.
Just like in 08, this is a buy the rumor and sell the announcement type of event. In 08, markets rallied as the bailout wound its way through the final approval and once it passed - stocks tanked.
Robotrader contra indicator is also flashing now.
This is confusing. I will just stay long gold and sheep pelts.
WTI flameout in progress...
ZHers have been waiting for a Black XXXday for a long time. However, the Black XXXday has never materialised.
...yet. :)
By God you're right!
And since it hasn't happened yet, therefore it obviously never will.
Your logic is flawless. No more doom and gloom for me! It's all rainbows and unicorns in my house from now on.
Who cares if it hasn't shown up since May 2010. When the bears are right, they're really REALLY right..
Kicking to the Fed fomc i see. QE3 better be ready or things will get pretty funny.
Bring this bitch of a market back down where it belongs!
Make sure you carry the ball into the endzone before celebrating next time.
Touchdown.
FSLR up 17%, FFIV up 12%, lots of guys selling AMZN and bottom fishing on other stocks today.
And as usual youll be doing nothing except reporting on stock prices from your rearview mirror.
Hehe Sheep.
I documented on ZH about a month ago going all in to EWZ at 53.70. It has been a nail biter. U need to look at it and study brazil's banks and finances and teeny tiny debt. Young, vigorous, full of energy and natural resources, and the socialists have surrounded themselves with advisers who understand economics. They are more free market than us in some ways.
This guy can't predict where the sand will fall in an hourglass.
What? Half-life is only one minute now??? Blame HFT /sarc
"PAUSED"???
Je ne comprende pas.
This was a simple liability management exercise, with some reprofiling thrown in, plus a bunch of EU ministers engaging in a circle jerk. How could it go off the rails so early?? How?
Ceci n'est pas une gâchette d'incident de crédit.
three years of inaction and heaps more of the same ponzi bullshit, now 6 days of frenetic play to right the boat full of holes. Good luck but it'll soon be every man for himself.
I wonder if "so boring" our Amazement friend is having fun today...
Once again, bankers have the upper hand. They know officials will do whatever they can to prevent a credit default, so they will get what they want.
fucking banks. The US/EZ leaders are helping a plutocracy, which has set up a modern financial system, that directly undermines our democracy.
#occupywallstreet
Yup. Banks get bailouts they don't give them
What democracy? Get real child...
+Anonymous
#OperationCashback
The markets are up! FTSE, DOW, NASDAQ, CAC, DAX - a sea of green...
HOW? HOW THE HELL?
What does it take to sink this thing?
EWZ is the place to be for the next ten years.
Just like the Ronco Rotisserie, set it and forget it. See you on the other side maybe.
"Well, that surge lasted all of 10 minutes."
Stop saying this. Everytime a half life comment is posted here half life goes out the window and the market nonsense continues!
New Headline--"We have reached agreement to book another conference room to have another meeting to come up with a newer better plan."
... plus better soup and more pain au chocolat.
If ye don't eat yur pudding, how can ye have any meat?
Just think of all the economic stimulus from all those buffets and conference room rentals!
in other news Goldman is getting a nice 1.5% pop on word that more board members/principals/associates are being linked to more fraud and criminality. Score one for the Banksters
and I'm sure they're probably front-running their own arrests
in this Scar Face society the more criminal you are the more wealth you attract.
The meeting has not started yet. No panic.
meeting will never start
bunga in brothel already, drunk
merckel strap-on fucking sackozy
maybe tomorrow meeting
Your parliament agreed to a bigger EFSF. But be glad: the SPD would have surrendered your country to eurobonds already.
Hmm...looks like the SPD and Greens held out for a limit on back-stopping from where I'm sitting,
but let's all golf-clap about the leverage sell-out to save 32:1 leveraged German banks like that's gonna fly.
Europareich unter Deutscher Führung, thanks what will come!!
The meeting has not started yet. No panic.
That´s true ... and so the last hope for millions of european citizens is a dozen plane crashes.
Of course there is deadlock. Otherwise the Bernank isn´t going to fuel up his whirlybird (equipped with long range tanks so he can shove piles of fiat all over the EU).
Deleted. Wrong thread
Smells like currency intervention coming soon...Earnings aren't going to keep the S&P up for long here at home...JPY is way too strong and EUR fluttering about in real-time...Out of control and PPT monkeys are getting overtime!!
1 nanosec out of thelife of an HFT algo:
Sell, Buy, Sell, Buy, Sell, Buy
Manipulate the sheep.
We have some serious Yentervention going on.
I'm reading 15 euros cash and 35 euro 6% coupon bonds for every 100 euros received?
sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo they want EU banks to take an 85% haircut in cash terms?
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrright.....
Spartan117 - Gold at $8k or $12k (forget $50k) assumes that we will replace our fiat money masters with you, just because you decided to pay someone to dig up a specific type of shiny metal so you could bury it again somewhere else.
Ever ask yourself what happens if fiat $$ blows up but we decide to use SOMETHING else to base our $$ on just so we don't have to give you control over our economy? The whole point of $ is to use the cheapest raw materials possible.
Sorry, but those of you that have bought into the idea that the world will have to use gold to back it's new $$ will be sorely disappointed. You have bought into a ponzi scheme, and will be crushed when China and India stop buying and developed world try to sell to reduce debt.
Yes, yes the only 5-7,000 year old ponzi existing.. I am sure the Arab's will love oil backing a "dollar, seashells, .. grains of sand maybe?? Chine and India stop buying..
NOW CONFIRMED; the Federal reserve is among us...
not a haircut, it's head shaving!
Scalping, double bubble.
It's simply amazing how billions of CDS's are 'on the table' and the US equity markets are green...I don't even know how to make sense of this...
CDS's are 'annoying' so you won't see them triggered, rules will be bent. It's remarkable IMF asks for 75% knowing that it will trigger a CDS for sure... Overnight banks all of a sudden agreed on a "voluntary" haircut of 50%, if it's voluntary, ISDA won't trigger an event... indeed, BS! I've asked WilliamBanzai to come up with some pics of the concept of "voluntary" as I think it will be the word of 2011
The CDS will never be paid out. The agreement will always take into account how to have the ISDA call the haircut voluntary and there will be an agreement that negates any need to pay CDS. The whole security type of CDS is currently being made useless. It is the collateral damage the market is going to have to figure out longer term..
not billions. trillions.
I picture a painting, a la dogs playing poker, except the dogs represent banks, with the ECB walking in with a knife to begin castrations, and all the dogs pointing CDS-pistols, double-fisted, at each others heads. Yes, I think that about sums it up.
CDS triggers will be outlawed, derivative payouts will be outlawed. Law's, rules, political associations and parties any national customs or mass movements will be trashed to keep the balls in the air. You have not seen anything yet.
Stop counting on law to to be the trigger.. The only real trigger will be hunger as it has always been. Just be sure your not going hungry and you may be ok.. Oh and stay away from crowds..
I think Greece h/c can't be announced before EFSF is in place.
Markets rallying now on the fact that EFSF leverage model has been agreed upon in germany, but what they forget to notice is that there is also a pledge by Germany: NO MORE MONEY.
Hence, to get this levered up thing to work it needs people to buy in. Brazil said no yesterday and now some dude is flying off to China on Friday to try to get it to buy in.
As such no one can announce really anything since all these pieces are tied together. Markets rally on something they had already rallied on, very clever politics.
Time will come soon the market will say "trust, but verify" and asks to see what's in those EFSF coffers....
Bear Stearns is well capitalized-- oh....wait.......wrong story
LinK source please.
Bloomberg Terminal
I lost track at greek bailout 4 is this 6 or 8 now?
How many times has Merkel said "this is the last time... NO MORE MONEY"
Du hast ein Arsch offen
The 1.4 trillion euro bazooka will never be built much less used.
Germany will not insure it under joint and several liability, which is the only way it could possibly be insured.
The gold bugs counting on the ECB to monetize are making a mistake in my judgment. The crazy germans are intent on deflation.
and the stocks keep falling...
Does anyone remember an 80s band called Haircut 100? They could have a reunion as Haircut 100%, which is where this will end up. I mean, if you're already defaulting, nobody will lend to you for a long time. Why pay anything?
This is bullish for catering firms in Europe.
Just one question; Dare I ask are Robo and Cramer related?
PMs PMs & more PMs
sorry about the dup.