Any Greek Restructuring Should Be Designed To Trigger A Credit Event

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Sat, 10/15/2011 - 11:36 | 1776947 Fips_OnTheSpot
Fips_OnTheSpot's picture

How long can a can be kicked?

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 12:38 | 1777047 G-R-U-N-T
G-R-U-N-T's picture

"How long can a can be kicked?"

Vengeance is mine sayeth the CAN as the road ends and woe to the can kickers as you will have my wrath!!!

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 12:48 | 1777082 max2205
max2205's picture

Why the fuck would the writer believe anything that non mark to market JPM would say on an earnings call. 150% of their 'earnings ' in the last Q where from taking their drop in JPM bonds up to the earnings line

What a bunch of crap. CDS 's WILL EXPLODE!!!!!

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 14:52 | 1777274 sqz
sqz's picture

This is a badly written article. Tchir's intent comes across but it reads like garbage to anyone who works in the markets or seriously follows it. It must be a bit of a nightmare to understand for someone new to credit markets.

1. Guy keeps mixing up "short" CDS (i.e. short protection, long credit) with short Greece (i.e. short credit, long protection) and talking about "sold" and "selling" when he means unwind or closing.

2. Anyone who would call JPM ahead of the curve in risk management immediately after they just posted earnings, where more than 27% of it is from their DVA (i.e. extremely controversial booked profits due to losses on your own debt) and that this specifically enabled them to beat their expected earnings, is very deluded or trying to sell some agenda.

3. He critically misunderstands that the primary reason some members of the EU wish to avoid default is due to the seniority of debt and past payouts from the "official" creditors, i.e. IMF, ECB, and bilateral EU gov. funding (and presumably the new crisis funds ESM, EFSF). In fact, you can pretty much boil it down to the ECB being the main blocking point. Unlike the IMF they didn't hand out special loans to Greece, but instead under Trichet (with huge internal controversy especially from the German central bankers) bought Greek debt on the open market like anyone else. This gives little reason for them to be afforded special protection from haircuts or outright default on Greek bonds.

To the ECB, taking a loss on Greek debt is like a bomb going off in their books. It is arguably even worse than if it had happened to the IMF because it is a central bank. Not only are they likely to have to go ask all the EZ governments for money (assuming no asset liquidations like gold ;p), but it creates a precedent and tarnishes their reputation for future crises.

In addition, EU gov. funding to Greece in the past has had no senority over private creditors, this means that if Greek did default again there is no reason why they should be excluded from the losses. This is a significant politcal risk since now they would have to return to their taxpayers and declare they lost money on Greece and, oh look, time to fill yet another budget hole - can anyone donate their first child, etc.

At the rate Greece is bailed out from all official corners of the EU and the rapidly diminishing contribution of private creditors to Greek debt holdings, at some point it will become easier for governments to keep talking up the crisis and just keep bailing out Greece with emergency loans (who knows where from) for years, than it is to even contemplate a loss on their existing payouts.

What's ironic is that if you actually look at the figures, without all this interference, Greece would need to repudiate its outstanding debt completely (while retaining the ability to recapitalize its banks) in order to achieve an actual reduction on their total debt. Due to the mixing of official creditors with private creditors, mainly due to the ECB, it's in Greece's interest not to do anything at all but just wait for the money to come in drips.

That is, to hell with moral hazard, ECB/EU wants to save its reputation at almost any cost to their taxpayers.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 14:58 | 1777301 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

Well argued.

However I would disagree on a "continuing crisis" and endless drip-feed to Greece.

I think things will come to a head before long.

It's one thing for King Canute to claim he can hold back the sea.

It is an entirely different matter to put it into practise.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 16:59 | 1777580 falak pema
falak pema's picture

well when poseidon becomes angry it ends up in tsunami. Even in the Medit. So its worth meditating.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 16:59 | 1777583 spdrdr
spdrdr's picture

Canute never claimed to be able to hold back the sea.

He famously demonstrated this to his many followers (who thought he was a god), by ordering the incoming tide to cease - and failed miserably.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 17:22 | 1777618 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

I was aware of that at the time of writing.

I was using the common knowledge of Canute.


Drawing the myth truth out ........

Who will be Canute today?

Who will say that the tide is running out on the West?

Who will lead like Canute?


Sat, 10/15/2011 - 15:24 | 1777354 oogs66
oogs66's picture

It seems that Europeans like to talk about CDS in terms of protection so long or bought means short credit risk. Americans tend to talk about it in terms of risk - so long or bought means long credit risk. Another added level of confusion to this product.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 16:44 | 1777554 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Yes - Investing vs Betting mindset


Take the live grenade from those juvenile's tentacles.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 16:50 | 1777570 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

Or leave the grenade with the juvenile's testicles.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 16:38 | 1777540 falun bong
falun bong's picture

and in principle you should spell principal the right way

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 17:04 | 1777590 spdrdr
spdrdr's picture

I don't no about that!

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 10:20 | 1778667 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

I disagree totally with this article being a piece of garbage. To me it makes perfect sense: "the problem is that the banks are" (as they always are) "net long." This is the whole basis for Credit Default Swaps. Before this item was created simply put there was no insurance for financial entities that have been scaled up to manage their risk. The hedged risk vis a vis Greece...and i imagine all the other nations of Europe (relative to the risk) is without a doubt so small as to be a rounding error relative to the net long exposure. In short "the countries are destroying their banks" which given the size of the financial system relative to actual nations does in fact put the individual nations at risk (riots in the street)....whereas in the USA the interest is only in nationalizing them apparently. Anywho "Europe's up first." Perhaps the member States of the EU are just trying to "cut their banks down to size" (maybe the elected leaders are just trying to run their countries?) but as is obvious these actions have meant "cutting your country down to size." Since no one wants the benefit cuts in each of the member states of the EU it all comes down to recognizing the the fact the entirety of the European Banking sector has a net long exposure and not as it presented in the MSM "mere exposure" at all. In other words this isn't "kicking the can down the road" at all but in fact simply being in denial--or worse. Since all we need to do in our analysis is "simply see what the people in The Street are doing as a conesquence" we can simply dispense with the ridiculous argument of mere "moral hazard" as presented above. This is SECURITY HAZARD...and not a mere moral one. Insofar as "the currency rises in value as country so and so explodes in an orgy of violence"....well, "that must be those little countries." Again...we shall see what the consequences of the now global movement now known as "The Occupation" truly is. When the media starts "complaining" that "anarchists" are "hijacking the movement"...well, let's just say it sounds rather American. Hard to imagine "it all started with a unemployed fruit vendor." Amazing.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 17:10 | 1777598 Sam Clemons
Sam Clemons's picture

The energy stats don't lie.  The can kicking is clearly not working in the real world.

For those of you who liked my energy, historical bull market charts, I updated them for the first time in months.  Also have some info on where we are headed in the short term.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 11:39 | 1776954 agent default
agent default's picture

Greece should default big, should default loud, and should tell the Eurocrats to shove it.  I do not understand why the decision fo weather to default or not, is not something for Greece to decide, but something for the EU.  This is nonsense of  the highest degree.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 15:12 | 1777325 Divine Wind
Divine Wind's picture

I think Greece has given up this right with prior rounds of funding.

Threat Journal recently carried a video with Max Keiser that explains much of it. Incredible.



And behind it all?  Goldman Sachs.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 15:29 | 1777366 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

And this from the traitor Papandreou.

"We are not Atlas which can take all Europe's problems on his shoulders," he said, referring to a Greek mythological figure who supported the heavens on his shoulders. "If Europe cannot solve its problems, the consequences will be unpredictable for all of us in Europe."


Sat, 10/15/2011 - 16:11 | 1777467 DosZap
DosZap's picture

agent default

Reason?,easy...................................FREE CHIT.

Suck that teat as long as it puts out. Greece(and several others are) basically WELFARE soverigns.

Who the hell wants to have to do it thereself.When they can get it free.


Sat, 10/15/2011 - 16:41 | 1777547 Bwahaha WAGFDSMB
Bwahaha WAGFDSMB's picture

How big is the Greek army?

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 16:47 | 1777561 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

It's the biggest of the world
and it's called NATO

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 11:47 | 1776979 holdbuysell
holdbuysell's picture

The complexity of the system is ridiculous. These jackwagons have wrapped themselves around the axle so tightly, there's no more room to move.


Sat, 10/15/2011 - 12:36 | 1777066 Rainman
Rainman's picture

Profit from failure is a grimy, unethical and immoral business. And business has never been better.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 13:19 | 1777140 rocker
rocker's picture

That is why Goldman always wins. Throughout the summer they took trillions out of the market.

 Now people are leaving in mass.

So Goldan and their special algo manipulating software is taking the maket up to attract new money in.

Hence, Rinse and Repeat. Just went they suck in enough money again. The Squid will suck it out again.

There is no more proof for me that Goldman Rules the World as the BBC guest said.

When Greece had their Riots they had banners with Goldman Sachs on them all over the place.

That is not something that was a illusion, it was reality that Goldman is in part to blame for the people's downfall.

It is terrible of CNBC to leave people under the impression that the Bailout of Greece was for the people.

It is not, the bailout would be mostly for the bond holders. bond holders mostly being the Banks and the elite who

control the banks.  Dam, it's always the banks.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 19:26 | 1777856 JohnG
JohnG's picture

Said one lawyer to another?

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 11:47 | 1776981 falak pema
falak pema's picture

If greece had patriotic leaders it would default loud and clear. Let Eu handle its banking fall out. Unfortunately, Greece has Oligarchs, part of Euro construct. Paid shills who lied then as they lie today and let their people pay to save their banker friends.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 11:53 | 1776990 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

Peter Tchir writes above:

« ... Dumb Bank would enter into bankruptcy in some form or another ... »

Dumb Bank - I think many of us have had an account there at some point ...

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 11:55 | 1776992 dasein211
dasein211's picture

Theyre scared to death because they know that the off market dark pool derivatives would crush everything. Its not what we see in the open. Its whats under the sheets. There is no other explanation. With what we know in the open it makes sense to mark it all down and take the loss but theyre hiding a derivatives nuke that will take out everyone and they know it... Or a few know it and are trying anything to stop it.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 12:00 | 1777006 agent default
agent default's picture

This is not Greece's problem. It's their problem.  Greece should tell thm to fuck off.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 12:02 | 1777012 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

DTCC is not comprehensive anywhere and certainly not in Europe.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 13:16 | 1777135 oogs66
oogs66's picture

why the hell isn't this stuff on an exchange yet?  really it is getting close to 4 years since Bear and this huge product, is still completely hidden....insane!  regulatory failure...complete regulatory failure, but hey, we can do operation twist - what a joke :D

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 14:56 | 1777298 Mike2756
Mike2756's picture

'Cause they fought it. No market for that garbage or, was it something else?

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 15:19 | 1777343 Absalon
Absalon's picture

The market in interest rate swaps is so totally disproportionate to the amount of hedgeable debt outstanding that most of the swaps are probably being used for some inappropriate purpose - probably tax avoidance - and creating systemic risks as a side effect.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 15:35 | 1777378 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Good point.  Ditto for the volume in FX transactions.  Barrons got their panties in a knot over this for a while.  Speculation was that much of it was money laundering from crooks and cartels.  No one seems to want to look too closely. 

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 12:16 | 1777037 Manipulism
Manipulism's picture

For example Ackermann knows it for shure.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 13:31 | 1777165 end da fed
end da fed's picture

please help me understand derivatives...

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 16:26 | 1777514 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Start with any well written book on stock options: puts, calls, basic strategies.

Don't try to deal with bonds unless you want to be a specialist or a drooling, muttering nincompoop like the rest of us;)

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 17:07 | 1777594 end da fed
end da fed's picture

ok thanks

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 11:57 | 1776998 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

Worshipping at the altar of DTCC's measurements of CDS exposure is a particularly bad idea, especially for European insurance, which may not clear through DTCC.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 12:14 | 1777034 dvp
dvp's picture

Fascinating is the article's passage, "a true restructuring where banks and insurance companies are for all intents and purposes forced to accept a big haircut."  "Haircut" appears to be the term du jour in the popular "economics, business, finance" media.  Exactly what does it mean?  Does it mean what it meant during the "terror" in the French revolution?  Now those were "haircuts!"

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 13:13 | 1777128 oogs66
oogs66's picture

the 21% number they kick around the first time was a pack of lies...the banks were going to keep booking it at par and greece still owed all the money, just over a longer period.  every plan is conceived to deceive

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 15:44 | 1777402 Mike2756
Mike2756's picture

It's more than that, you're talking pension funds, etc.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 00:46 | 1778326 Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

How about "take a massive loss on a lousy sucker's bet gone bad"? But wait that is not doubleplusgoodspeech..

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 12:34 | 1777062 Market Efficien...
Market Efficiency Romantic's picture

Doesn't it look like an inofficial European assessment of net CDS issuance? If US banks were the issuer of Greek sovereign and bank CDS, the EU would take cracks to its reputation but would sure agree to let default. Maybe, European CDS writing on Greece has been more active than generally anticipated, demanding a non-evenmt default. But then again, especially for the large banks, aka Deutsche, SocGen etc, Greek exposure had always been netted of CDS protection. Without protection, their situation would sure look vastly different from what anyone including EBA expects.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 12:42 | 1777073 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

There are those who say the derivatives are a zero sum game.

They are correct as long as all of the counterparties can meet their liabilities.

But it doesn’t take much for the entire market to implode.

@ $600 Trillion if only .1% fail to meet their obligations that is $600bn.

@ $600 Trillion if only .05% fail to meet their obligations that is $300bn.


Sat, 10/15/2011 - 13:14 | 1777131 Market Efficien...
Market Efficiency Romantic's picture

I would look at if from a little differerent perspective, however with the same fatal result:

The majority of the 600T are IR swaps, not being influenced directly. And even in the CDS market, only a portion is issued to Eurpean sovereign and Eurpean banks. However, let the relevant market be 20T, if one core column drops, the entire pyrimad drops, eventually also pulling the columns in other derivative markets.

My argument has been, bank recapitalization does not change anything material, as a crack in the derivative chain will despite any recapitalization take down the entire house of cards. I am really wondering, how G20 governments possibly think to safe a derivative chain reaction.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 13:18 | 1777139 oogs66
oogs66's picture

if one core dumps, just like lehman, it will be losses on bonds that crush the system, not the guess we just never let anyone default - world is insane....

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 13:34 | 1777172 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

But it is the existence of CDS that allows banks and insurance companies ignore the scale of the losses.

If the CDS market is shown to be less than robust a lot of balance sheets will have to take a hit.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 14:09 | 1777231 oogs66
oogs66's picture

yes the system is convoluted beyond recognition and the reluctance to force it on to an exchange or in the open is basically criminal...such an important part of the market remains opaque and feeds the fear and greed causing too much volatility...the solution - exchange - is so simple and beneficial it is just amazing that still nothing done...

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 15:09 | 1777322 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

I agree. A transparent market would help price discovery.

But I'm not holding my breath.

In the meantime we have absolutely no idea how the banks and insurance companies arrive at the valuation of derivatives on their balance sheets.


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