This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

Art Cashin Exposes The Fracture Within The #OWS Movement

Tyler Durden's picture




 

One can always rely on Art Cashin and the Friends Of The Fermentation (FoF) to provide a novel perspective on pretty much everything.

From Art Cashin of UBS

It May Be That Way In 99% Of All Places - The office of one of the regulars in the Friends of Fermentation is in a building that faces Zuccotti Park, the campground for the Occupy Wall Street crew. Being a sociable type (he’s in sales); he sometimes stops to ask someone where they are from and why they are here.

Last Wednesday, he began to chat with a young man with a tambourine who was seeking donations for the group. After a brief chat, my FoF pal told the young man - “I’m not gonna give you any money.” When asked why not, my friend replied - “‘Cause you guys screwed up the drum thing.”

The allusion was to an incident in which an anti-protester had snuck in one night and slashed the leather heads of several drums with a razor knife. The drum owners had asked the protest leaders for a portion of the donations to repair the drums. The leaders, rather publicly denied the request.

The tambourine guy tried one more time. “No”, maintained my friend, “The drum thing was stupid.”

The tambourine guy looked to his left, then to his right as if to see if anyone was near. Then he leaned in toward my pal and whispered - “I gotta admit, management here is pretty dumb. They don’t have a clue.”

Welcome to Wall Street friend, that’s a phrase you’ll hear a lot around here.

 

- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:26 | 1856163 blueRidgeBoy
blueRidgeBoy's picture

who cares.  these pussies will be back in their parents' basements by Christmas

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:35 | 1856212 CPL
CPL's picture

Sad thing is most of them have families with kids when they do move back to their ancestral home.

 

And that is exactly why most of them are out there.  To give you the opportunity to explore the idea that you might end up in your parents basement by Xmas.  If not you, then someone else you know.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:40 | 1856231 fuu
fuu's picture

Keep on keeping on.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:11 | 1856349 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

I don't want anyone else living in my parents' basement

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:26 | 1856939 NoSePuede
NoSePuede's picture

It's bullshit that we older adults still think we're in the same economy that we had.  Kids are the first to see the collapsing side of a  credit-fueled binge.

My former Marine corp son struggled for six months to find a job.  He applied EVERYWHERE.  He finally found one at a local supermarket.  The last thing he wants to do is be dependent on anyone or anything.  We're making the most of it, but it eats at him and all I can do is support and encourage.

It doesn't take great talent to pick a kid out of the crowd and have him spout.  Kids don't have the answers.  They have the questions.  It the piss poor stewardship of this country by us older people that's made things hard for everyone.  Are we proud of the legacy that we're leaving them? 

 

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:34 | 1856976 trav7777
trav7777's picture

what's the American Dream Myth?  Work hard and you'll be richer than your parents.  That ain't happening now.

Graduate, go to college, get job, work, retire.  That shit is last century.  The class war is HERE, but it's been waged by the executive class on the working class.  Why hire an american when everyone in the kitchen is mexican and can't speak english and can be exploited?

The OWS kids with their iPads are running into a wall I call "unmet expectations" or unfulfilled entitlements.  This is obvious when looking down through the "I am the 99%" stories where we see person after person levered up in egregious debt, whether it's a person who bought a house at the peak or a student who accrued $100k for a useless college degree.

People still expect as a right all the trappings of an economy that no longer exists.  And it stings to see connected kids getting all the favors as if this is Brazil

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 14:39 | 1857385 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Bingo.  You show me OWS rolling up its sleeves and actually desiring to get its fingernails dirty (this doesn't mean just not showering), and I'll be the first to give it some credit...  until that day, I'll continue to discredit it.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:45 | 1856515 TruthHunter
TruthHunter's picture

More likely, kids but not families...

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:37 | 1856216 Peter K
Peter K's picture

YUP:)

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:38 | 1856220 Catman
Catman's picture

Or in a van down by the river, eating government cheese

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:48 | 1856257 wombats
wombats's picture

...and canned beans

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:00 | 1856308 WALLST8MY8BALL
WALLST8MY8BALL's picture

Nice Matt Foley reference there Catman!

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 12:31 | 1856748 fuu
Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:38 | 1856222 Carlyle Groupie
Carlyle Groupie's picture

‘Occupy Boston’ takes Israeli Consulate

http://mycatbirdseat.com/2011/11/%e2%80%98occupy-boston%e2%80%99-takes-i...

Awareness is growing and the Israel types are getting nervous. Squash the OWS movement! We simply cannot have groups congregating and discussing the realities of The United States of Israel.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:57 | 1856282 Carlyle Groupie
Carlyle Groupie's picture

"Sarkozy to Obama: I'm fed up with Netanyahu"

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-57320340-503543/obama-sarkozy-rep...

Sarkozy tells Obama Netanyahu is a "liar"

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/08/us-mideast-netanyahu-sarkozy-i...

"You're fed up with him, but I have to deal with him even more often than you," Obama replied.

Right on O! We're all sick of this scum!

Vote for Obama or Sarkozy!

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:08 | 1856343 john39
john39's picture

odd that.... the "leader of the free world" has to deal with a tyrant from a little shit hole in the dessert "every day"....  almost as if obummer resents taking his orders for nutyhayoo.... the HORROR.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:52 | 1856555 MSimon
MSimon's picture

Israel is growing and the Arabs are about to fall off a cliff. Obviously the Resident needs advice from a country that actually works.BTW Israel will soon be self sufficient in oil and gas. They design Intel chips. Their biotech is world class.

Demographics is destiny. And the Arabs/Persians are sinking like a stone. Starvation is stalking Egypt.

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2011/11/in-heart.html

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 12:41 | 1856770 11b40
11b40's picture

Israel exists due to America's largess - financial, political & military.  Take that away, and what will you have?

And watch out for those demographics, too.  Hoards of hungry Arabs with less to lose everyday is not a pretty picture.  The Palestinian problem will only continue to get worse, and now Egypt is a big and growing problem.

It is far past time that America read the riot act to Israel and force them to come to terms with reality.  They constantly thumb their nose at the rest of the world as they are lead around by the far-right Zionists, who, in essence are no better than the extremists Muslims.  Extremists everywhere are going to be the downfall of all of us.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:37 | 1856988 trav7777
trav7777's picture

the palestinian problem will resolve itself over time as they are systematically dispossed of even more land.  At the end of the day, with peace on the table, there won't be enough of a State left for them.  And the zionists will proclaim, "what's done is done."

The REALITY is that the ME conflict won't be solved by anything other than force of arms.  This is a really OLD blood feud and a couple of religions that cannot live with anyone else's religion.  The jews do not tolerate anymore than the muslims in their neighborhood do.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:50 | 1857061 11b40
11b40's picture

I agree.  Plus, we have no dog in this hunt, so why do we continue to bankroll the ancient blood feud?  Why not let them go at it, and let God decide the winner.  After all, both sides lay claim to being His favorite.  How else can it ever be proven?

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:44 | 1857018 Demologos
Demologos's picture

Israel will soon be oil and gas sufficient because they are stealing it from the Palestinians and Lebanese.  Israel is  designing Intel chips no doubt with hackable back doors so they can steal our intellectual property and spy on anyone they choose.  Israel's biotech is world class, especially kidney removal techniques for organ trafficking to rich clients in the US.

Demographically, Israel is failing.  A lot of Israelis are trying to get out and fewer Jews want to go there, at least sane ones.  The Arab countries are growing populations.  The only reason starvation is stalking Egypt is the changeover from food crops that used to feed their population, and then some, to boutique crops like strawberries to please the globalization monster.

Israel works?  Didn't MSimon notice the massive demonstrations there by people who are being crushed by high rents jacked-up by greedy landlords?  Israel's Zionist government needs a war right now to distract the public and force dissenters to shut up or have their patriotism questioned.  Hey, the same trick their butt boyfriends in the US government would like to try here.

 

 

 

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 15:07 | 1857605 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Demographics is destiny, huh? So how's it looking for Israel, with burgeoning Arab and Orthodox populations within its borders, and a growing proportion of zio-indifferent Latinos in its main sponsor, the US?

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:56 | 1856573 trav7777
trav7777's picture

Of course Netanyayhoo is a fuckin liar...and a corrupt convict.  But his fellow citizens, aka dual passport holders run the USA.  Vast majorities of media, finance, and legislative chairs.

Your career will commit suicide the second you even contemplate questioning how the protection of whatever Israel wants is in the US's central strategic interests.

Hell, we were willing to basically go to nuclear war over this little State.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:44 | 1856242 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

I dunno...  their parents probably even got sick of them by now...

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:20 | 1856384 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

"pussy" is a strange word for someone screwed over by a corrupt government

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:06 | 1856873 SOP
SOP's picture

How about "distracted children"  ????

 

 

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:15 | 1856902 Hugh_Jorgan
Hugh_Jorgan's picture

Perhaps it would be better to describe a person that was "screwed over by a corrupt government" but responds by picketing the Banksters on Wall Street all while noshing down on all the free "Soros'd eouvres" as an imbecile rather than a pussy, then eh?

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:36 | 1856985 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

"all the while" is your only objection. You don't criticise their target. And they are getting up from their computers plus taking to the streets. What is your plan of action? 

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:09 | 1856878 Barbar
Barbar's picture

you will be chanting marches alongside such pussies as you have so eloquently put it when gasoline is 10$ a gallon. write this down somewhere.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:52 | 1857075 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

occupy wal-mart

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:27 | 1856169 knukles
knukles's picture

So their day jobs are at MF Global?

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:30 | 1856186 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Jefferies actually.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:28 | 1856180 ZippyBananaPants
ZippyBananaPants's picture

What does any of this have to do with Justin Bieiber's baby daddy lawsuit?

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:35 | 1856210 HD
HD's picture

Someone PLEASE explain to me why that kid is famous? I can't think of anything he has done. I saw him interviewed on Conan and he was just obnoxious, even for a teenager.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:50 | 1856269 Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture

Wow, so someone actually stopped to watch a Bieber interview...

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:06 | 1856334 Mr Pink
Mr Pink's picture

I actually remember sitting through it too. Conan might be  the only thing funnier than the posters on this site.

 

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:45 | 1856521 I am a Man I am...
I am a Man I am Forty's picture

youtube, music, movies, pop culture, teenage girls, music awards.....is this a serious question??

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:47 | 1856251 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Hell yes, and is it good for the Jews?

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:29 | 1856185 SelfGov
SelfGov's picture

The movement is over.

A guy with a drum is pissed.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:32 | 1856200 fuu
fuu's picture

And the tamborine man disagrees with management.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:41 | 1856235 midtowng
midtowng's picture

Why exactly is this worthy of a ZH front page article? This wouldn't even make it to being mentioned on Fox news.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:30 | 1856188 HD
HD's picture

If Goldman owned those drums the fed would have bailed them out. Sounds like the OWS understand moral hazard better than the Street.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:32 | 1856195 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture

with a name like, 'Art Cashin', how could you not be successful in life?

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:32 | 1856196 Shizzmoney
Shizzmoney's picture

Everyone go back to being sheep.  Your thoughts are not welcome in America no more.

New motto in America: "You'll like our shitty country and shut the fuck up"

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:35 | 1856201 Mercury
Mercury's picture

 “I gotta admit, management here is pretty dumb. They don’t have a clue.”

Just wait until you have to deal with your regulators...

 

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:33 | 1856203 youngman
youngman's picture

"Drums..they have drums...and all I have is this cheap tamborine....that is not fair...that the one percent have drums....and the rest of us only have tamborines...drum wanna bees....man is this country fucked...got a joint man..my head hurts.."

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:33 | 1856205 Free Markets
Free Markets's picture

When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skills by doubling your efforts, There's no end to what you can't do.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:35 | 1856209 LongSoupLine
LongSoupLine's picture

I'm to the point of not finding humor in any subject mater relating to Wall Street, Banks, government, politics, media, or any other blanket and/or supporting subject that relates or correlates to global financials.

 

I guess I flat-out don't have any humor remaining.  With that, we must truly be very close to end state of this giant lie. 

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:50 | 1856264 toady
toady's picture

I've been there for a while too. I just keep monitoring for the eventual meltdown so I can head for the hills.

Still, I gotta get a laugh in every now and then, especially now when things are still going good.

I can't imagine there will be a lot to laugh about when there are tanks in the street.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:58 | 1856302 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

I just keep monitoring for the eventual meltdown so I can head for the hills.

 

I don't think there's gonna be a big announcement or one of them aeroplanes pulling a sign that says "The Meltdown is Here."  Make sure your exodus route and bunker are at the ready. 

Nice geese - should get you about 4 days protein each for a family o' four.  :D

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:55 | 1856567 aerojet
aerojet's picture

There won't be any bellwether moment--it is just going bad very, very slowly.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:51 | 1857071 toady
toady's picture

I like to think I'll be able to see it coming in time to get out of dodge, even if its coming slowly.

Thats the trick, really. Leave too soon and you leave money on the table, leave too late...

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:53 | 1856560 aerojet
aerojet's picture

It's funny you mention that since I always thought that tv shows like the Daily Show exist only to act as a stress relief valve for the small element of our society that is too smart to believe any of the bs and propaganda.  Those people turn on the Daily Show and get to laugh and say "yeah, somebody else gets it!" and then go back to doing nothing about fixing the situation.  The same with voting--voting soaks up all the popular discontent and re-channels it into a useless waste of energy and time.  We need to stop playing their game and having no humor about the situation is the right step to take, too.  We should be facing them with utterly grim intentions--as in, you fix this now or we get violent.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:07 | 1856874 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

I had to stop watching Jon Stewart.  Yeah, it is funny, yeah it is topical.  But when you realize you are the only one on TV telling the truth, the onus on you grows, and Jon (and his producers) have not accepted that fact, which made me also look at them as a distraction/stress relief valve. 

Jon will tell the truth, and he will poke fun at something, but he actually stops short before going that final step towards condemning something, like the 2 party system, the bailouts, usury, fiat money, etc.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 14:08 | 1857153 Hugh_Jorgan
Hugh_Jorgan's picture

Stewart is a candy-ass. He sidles up to the truth occasionally to keep the dopes like you guys thinking you found a source of something more than just the usual "bread and circuses" propaganda from our criminal junk-food media.

You have a lot to learn about the reality of the world if you include John Stewart in the business of information...

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 14:14 | 1857205 prodigious_idea
prodigious_idea's picture

It's a comedy show.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:36 | 1856214 blindman
blindman's picture

macro-bunga update.
BOB MARLEY,WHO THE CAP FIT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC6UIW1F5Vc
.
ROUBINI: The Next MF Global Collapse Could Be Goldman Sachs
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/roubini-the-next-mf-global-collapse-could...
.
Topless in Vatican: FEMEN strip against ‘Catholic witch-hunt’
http://maxkeiser.com/2011/11/07/topless-in-vatican-femen-strip-against-c...
.
Wall Street v. Greece: G20 Opens as Greek PM Pushes For Referendum on EU Bailout Plan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t1WmqOb6u4&feature=player_embedded
.
"Such is the irresistible nature of truth that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing." - Thomas Paine
===
Number Of Iraqis Slaughtered In US War And Occupation Of Iraq "1,455,590"
Number of U.S. Military Personnel Sacrificed (Officially acknowledged) In America's War On Iraq: 4,801
www.icasualties.org/oif/

Number Of International Occupation Force Troops Slaughtered In Afghanistan : 2,793
=
Cost of War in Iraq & Afghanistan
Total Cost of Wars Since 2001
$1,273,642,760,121
http://www.costofwar.com/
.
[KR207] Keiser Report – The Fed, The Treasury & The Holy Troika
Posted on November 8, 2011 by stacyherbert|
http://maxkeiser.com/2011/11/08/kr207-keiser-report-the-fed-the-treasury...
.
designed to fail ..... ongoing
The Lightbulb Conspiracy (Full Length - English Subtitles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1xt4nEvipg&feature=player_embedded

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 12:47 | 1856797 11b40
11b40's picture

Hard to understand the junkers, bm.  Guess they don't like links.....or having to look at reality.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:47 | 1857041 blindman
blindman's picture

i have developed a certain negative following. i hope they
stick around. best to you.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 15:32 | 1857711 11b40
11b40's picture

Yeah, I know what you mean.  I have a couple, too, that I try to kill with kindness.  Then....there are those few that I just love to bait ;-)

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:37 | 1856218 Thomas
Thomas's picture

This story is silly.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:57 | 1856296 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

So are some of the comments.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:39 | 1856223 junkyardjack
junkyardjack's picture

I love these stories about someone that heard something that their friends friend said about some asshole down in OWS.  Its just blatant propaganda to discredit the movement.  The country is fucked up, its about time someone decided to step up and address it.  Instead the sheeple want to pull the crabs back to the bottom of the barrel with the rest.  I don't think the OWS movement will amount to anything because the American public is too stupid to realize what is going on around them.  They'd rather complain that teacher have health care and vacations when they don't so teachers are bad rather than wonder why its acceptable for them not to have good health care and any vacation time.  They've been programmed for too long now, the rich have won.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:46 | 1856249 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

"Its just blatant propaganda to discredit the movement."

See my next comment below.  You are missing the point in that #OWS is missing the point.  In fact, it's not propaganda to say they dont really have a point.  No one is there for the same reason because currently they are there because they have no where else to be...and the rent is cheap....

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:51 | 1856271 LasVegasDave
LasVegasDave's picture

The movement is discredited, numb-nuts. 

And if people dont have health care it because they havent planned accordingly. 

Anyone can get health care coverage.  There's no magic to it. 

You might not like the job that provides it, or having to pay for it yourself, but it is available to everyone.  

Its just nor free, like you want.  And by free I mean as a result of putting a gun to someone's head to steal his money to pay for your health care.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:09 | 1856346 MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

That is a despicable attitude towards the poor and disadvantaged. Do you want the health care industry to be reduced to the level of the mobile phone or car industries!? In these 'free market' industries, we have rich people driving expensive Mercedes and Porsches, while the poor can only afford Fords. the rich have iphone 4's, while the poor only have the oldest camera phones. Is THIS want you want in the healthcare industry? Absolutely heartless.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:26 | 1856405 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

while the poor can only afford Fords...

while the poor only have the oldest camera phones.

 

I thought you were a paid shill until I read this.  Only with an unfettered entitlement mentality could one make these statements.  The "oldest camera phones" are how old - 7-8 years?  Truly disadvantaged people don't have cars, phones, or cameras.  My church sends > 500 Christmas packages to kids all over the world each year (with no state support, of course).  If those kids were told that people who can only afford a Ford or only afford the oldest camera phones are poor, I think you'd learn about what heartless really means.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:36 | 1856462 MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

If the government had taken over the mobile phone and car industries from the start, they would be much more fair. Everyone would be granted their right to a mobile phone and car of a good standard, and there would be no wealth disparity. We wouldn't have rich people affording good phones, and poor people affording bad phones. This is the way forward. Liberals have been warning about the lack of government control in this country for years, and I think it's time we got some credit for it.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:44 | 1856509 EINSILVERGUY
EINSILVERGUY's picture

You really need to stop carrying "The communist manifesto" as if it were the Holy Bible. 

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:49 | 1856545 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

Liberals have been warning about the lack of government control in this country for years, and I think it's time we got some credit for it.

 

The country was founded on the basis of limiting government control.  Its demise is directly related to intervention by liberals to promote the nebulous and never-to-be-defined concept of "fairness."  Pound sand, MDB.  You have no idea what fairness is until someone rips away from you that which you labored for. 

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 14:14 | 1857208 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

I applaud your continuing attempts to push the envelope of sarcasm to its breaking point.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:59 | 1856586 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Sadly I have taken to just down arrowing when I see your posts.

Then I read them and want to down arrow them again.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 12:22 | 1856704 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

I tried to green arrow you twice.   :D

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:59 | 1856592 blueRidgeBoy
blueRidgeBoy's picture

MDB - nice comment as usual, but I got here first today - check out all my red

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 12:21 | 1856701 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

check out all my red

 

Are you surprised you're viewed as the message-less anarchists you are?

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:30 | 1856432 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

Why does the rate of inflation for health-care run 3-5 points higher than the rest of the economy -- for something like 20 straight years in a row?

Find anyone who has a problem with a healthcare or healthcare insurance provider and do a back-of-the-napkin of the number of people and hours involved in trying to "sort it out."

A large and growing portion of the economic energy that is allocated toward "health-care" HAS NOTHING AT ALL to do with providing medical services to people who need them.  It is an expensive ineffective bureaucratic nightmare in lots of cases (needlessly).

A question that (thinking) people ask themselves is this: is it reasonable to believe that the purchase of healthcare insurance is prudent AT ANY PRICE?  If not, then what is reasonable?

BTW -- I loathe Obamacare as a 'solution', and would prefer gov't be involved as little as possible (like not at all).

But saying that healthcare is available to everyone is like saying that Telsa automobiles are available to everyone.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:20 | 1856907 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

well said. Healthcare, like every other industry has been corrupted by ever growing powers who have bought our government and are destroying individual choice, free market principles, and medical quality. Prior to their "invasion" the now Chicago mayor had many Cheneyesque secret meetings with insurance and drug lords guaranteeing them they would get a huge piece of the pie, that we would not seek the best price for drugs worldwide, and they would end out on top, which they have. As a solo business practitioner, I just about puked when my latest 18% medical premium increase letter devoted a whole paragraph to apologizing as they too were "victims" of Obamacare. I have no employees but how in the hell does this help the economy    

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:56 | 1856570 prodigious_idea
prodigious_idea's picture

So let me understand your position.  You're saying that if I'm self-employed, or unemployed, and I can't afford the $1,400 monthly premium - because of frivolous malpractice suits (can you say tort reform), lack of competition from inability to buy insurance across state lines/other factors, big pharma exploitation of Medicare, etc, etc. - that I didn't plan well?  And in case you aren't aware of a little government agency called the IRS, they have some pretty silly rules (albeit imposed by Congress) that restrict the deduction for those of us who are self-employed to 25% of the cost.  You must have an employer-sponsored plan that allows full deduction of employer-paid premiums, or no family, or are a male under 25 buying an individual plan.  And just saying "anyone can get health coverage" doesn't make it true.  But then I'll leave that explanation for others as I am lucky to not have any pre-existing conditions.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 14:45 | 1857425 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Tort reform has been present in the united states since the 70s (possibly earlier).  The tort reform meme is simply a defense strategy by insurance companies for insurance companies.  They have to proffer some excuse for increasing premiums other than because people are playing hungry hungry hippo with uncle sam's piggy bank.  There are all kinds of tort reform measures regarding jurisdiction, venue, punitive damage caps that states have enacted...  further, even the supreme court of the united states has put caps on punitive damages, given too high of damages violate due process...  aside from what, maybe less than 1% of cases going to trial and getting a positive verdict?

I think you need to bark up a different tree...

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 12:52 | 1856826 11b40
11b40's picture

Of course health care is free.  Just show up at the emergency room....no problem, other than a short wait if it's a busy weekend night.

Never mind that this is the most costly & least effective way for society to deliver health care. 

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:00 | 1856310 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

No, I think it's perfectly fair to realize there is no free lunch and entitlement society is patently unsustainable.  You show me a society that caters to working less hours and providing additional benefits to its citizenry, and I'll show you a society that's about to take a bath.  It's not rocket surgery.

OWS will fail because its inherently idealogically flawed.  While the general premise might be right in that the concentration of money has caused a concentration (and usurpation) of political power, the proposed solution(s) (if there are any) are well...  not very palatable. 

If OWS was about wanting to go to work in a manufacturing facility all day, every day...  about going back to a single wage earner family...  about having a viable savings rate and forgoing consumption...  about addressing energy constraints on spending and entitlements...  then it might have a chance...  but until that day, I think it's perfectly fair to hold OWS out as people who never learned the lesson of the free lunch.  A few might get wealthy off of donations for the gig, but the movement will be unsuccessful...

Now, it might cause people to be more generally aware and desirous/vocal for change...  which would be a material contribution in my book...  but, the direct movement in its present form and name will be unsuccessful...  I don't think it was ready for all the media attention.  It's easy to dismiss critics as propagandists, and I'm confident there are falsehoods out there...  but reading between the lines, I think this ship is already taking water.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:59 | 1856588 TruthHunter
TruthHunter's picture

No free lunch?

What's your problem?  Goldman didn't hire you?

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:46 | 1857028 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

I don't think people are so much after a free lunch, as they are after a good, healthy lunch for a fair price.

Thats what has gotten skewed with the concentration of wealth (-> power), you work, but everyone ELSE gets rich, your boss, the shareholders, gov't, your ex-wife, credit card co., utilities, insurance... 

The fruits of your labor aren't yours any more!  Whats going to turn OWS into a Revolution?  Consumer power, consumer boycotts, consumer strikers.  To boycott the TBTF banks is Step One.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 14:57 | 1857525 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Eh no, what you're talking about is what middle america wants...  which OWS is not... 

Look at greece...  we deserve to work less for more pay damnit!  no...

OWS needs to demand systemic changes that will allow its protestors the possibility of work, if they desire...  this is ALL anyone can provide, despite countless attempts at otherwise.  The first demands should be to decrease entitlements...  this is where the movement gains moral legitimacy and everyone is forced to listen...  it's how goodwill is built.  The demands after that are to reduce the wealth gap...  they're pretty obvious from there.

Have to build goodwill and moral legitimacy before anyone will take you seriously...  simple as that.

Middle america, whatever is left of it, understands these issues...

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 15:44 | 1857793 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

DECREASE CORPORATE ENTITLEMENTS, yeah, there I agree with you.  All the subsidies, payments to Israel, guarantees, loans, back room deals, Crony Capitalism, thats what we need to cut out immediately, couldn't agree more. 

But the idea that the general welfare system is bankrupting the nation is just a fallacy.  It is the Military Industrial complex that takes all the money, and provides very little return (aside from a worldwide empire controlled by and for but a few people). 

I mean, when the gov't gives $100, where do you think that money goes?  Does it disappear?  Or does it get spent on food and clothes?  Now give $1b to  a corporation or a zombie bank, where does it go?  It most definitely doesn't enter the local economy, $60m goes to bonuses, $400m goes to senior creditors (aka People who are already Billionaires), etc etc. 

OWS is the 99%, by definition.  Thats Middle America too, by definition.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 16:07 | 1857924 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

I'm not sure about you, but the unfunded portion of SS & the medicare/caid funds seems to be enough, in and of itself, to punch a hole in our hull.  Governmental workers...  unions... 

The simple fact is that the ENTIRE thing needs to be revamped...  MIC included...  but, there will be no revamp of the MIC because it is the wellspring from which all government largess flows via the oil dollar peg, tribute payments, et al.  In other words, revamping the MIC, at this juncture, necessarily means revamping everything else because the printing press goes by by.  We're all in.

OWS is not the 99%...  Not a thing I have seen looks to me like OWS represents what's left of middle america...  not a damn chance.  The system is designed so that middle america fights with the poles...  and, in the 2 wolves and a sheep dinner party we call a democracy, this means that middle america is naturally inclined to lose.  I don't foresee much solidarity between the middle or middle/upper and the OWS crowd...  there have been too many free lunches thrown down the OWS hatches for there to ever be much solidarity there...  the demographics will have to change considerably before there is any middle backing.  I'd definitely like to see more has beens than never weres.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:45 | 1857023 Ace Ventura
Ace Ventura's picture

Well said, MM. In many ways the OWS movement is paralleling the Tea Party. Began as an otherwise worthy endeavour with roots in some sound logic, but was quickly coopted by the establishment and rendered aimless through the use of misinformation and wedge issues.

The common denominator is that the true culprits behind the events which understandably gave birth to these movements.....are able to melt into the background fog yet again, unscathed.

 

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 16:11 | 1857937 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

This is probably fair, but I'm thinking the Tea Party's motives and platform are...  more organized and generally superior...  I think it's fairly presumptuous to say that it began as a worthy endeavor...  I'm still not perfectly sure of its desires...  It seems like the TP started more narrow and then branched out into oblivion...  maybe OWS can learn from this and go from the present philosophy dart throwing competition to a more narrow focus...

If you want a common ground, it's simply conservativism...  I trust this will be a problem for many of the OWS folks.  Kind of a difficult pill to swallow that you opt to cut your standard of living in half...  which is why we keep kicking the can...

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:39 | 1856225 Race Car Driver
Race Car Driver's picture

I don't want to work

I just want to ...

Er....

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:43 | 1856239 toady
toady's picture

Drum store owners unite!

#ODS

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:44 | 1856241 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

The sadest part...long before any of this happened...was that the people charged with their education failed to instill any doubt in what they were told.  It is their inability to think clearly that hurts them most.

Go Ohio.  I am in WI and Unions are about to start a new round of recall elections and somehow, having balanced a 3 billion dollar deficit (my wife is a highschool teacher and we havent seen any reduction in quality of pay, time or education) people will still vote to unseat the governor.

Morons.  Keep the people just smart enough to work and just dumb enough not to think for themselves.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:00 | 1856312 toady
toady's picture

There is a recall election in AZ today.

The state senator who wrote SB1070, kicked all the people waiting for transplants off medicaid, and made the 1911 the official state gun is up for recall.

The guy running against him is his clone, so either way the people lose.

How stupid are the dems? They circulate petition and pay millions in legal fees to try to recall this guy, then they don't run a candidate? Repub v repub, tell me, what will change?

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:59 | 1856593 prodigious_idea
prodigious_idea's picture

Reminds me of the expression, Democrats fall in love.  Republicans fall in line.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:46 | 1856250 yogibear
yogibear's picture

The way to destroy OWS is for Wall Street to discredit them. It's a war now between Wall Street and OWS. 

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:02 | 1856320 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

If by discredit them you mean give them a lot of rope, then yes...  I'm pretty sure OWS is doing wall street's work for them...

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:17 | 1856371 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

The way to destroy OWS is for Wall Street to discredit them.

 

I guess I don't view their credibility as all that high to start with.  But that may be me.  I think the way to destroy OWS is to ignore them and leave them to their devices.  They have no unified message, and have a pretty decent concentration of anarchists among them.  To me that is a recipe for division and disintegration.

I've been at OWS on more than one occasion and I'm confident they are their own worst enemy.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:50 | 1856268 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

amusing to see the OWS ers and obamaites here on ZH wondering around lost

does soros still pay for negative marks?  quarter a click

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:03 | 1856325 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

LOL a quarter for you

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:26 | 1856412 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

another quarter - you're rich; now hand it over

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 12:56 | 1856841 tj3
tj3's picture

So how much do you get paid for posting?

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:58 | 1856301 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

Meanwhile, everything OWS complains about remains unaddressed.  For example:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/business/in-sec-fraud-cases-banks-make...

You or I would be in prison by now if we repeatedly violated the same law over and over.  Yes, there may be some issues with those actually at Zuccotti, but those are minor compared to the far larger issues being protested. We've been screwed over by the financial system - banks, Wall Street and the politicians they own and if you think otherwise you're oblivious.  

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:08 | 1856340 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

It's one thing to go all howard beale and be mad as hell and not want to take it anymore...  it's another thing to sit down and devise a platform that actually addresses the ills and is a viable spring board for the country moving forward...  I think they're sorely mistaken if they think that our destruction will be necessarily creative...  it can easily unleash things that are for more dangerous than the present system.  [I'll give them a hint too, people far smarter and more organized have already devised the systems].

They have no projection vehicle or mechanism for sustained growth without a viable, reasonable platform and centralized media interaction...  Granted, it's good to show people they're not alone...  but, if the company is too bad, it will have a suppressing effect on the margins (the people who don't burn incense).

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 15:47 | 1857811 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

What I am hearing is:  OWS needs one, single, dictator-like leader.

So that we can dig up dirt on him, and ad hominem attack him into irrelevance.  And destroy the whole movement with one blow.  WTF?  Why would OWS want to follow such an easy to counter strategy?

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 16:17 | 1857968 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Because otherwise it looks completely disorganized and has "representatives" with completely incoherent and internally inconsistent beliefs...  not a good way to get support.

It needs to have centralized media contacts...  basically, if you talk with anyone other than us, then their views are not necessarily the views of our platform...  everyone is welcome, but here is our basic framework...  you can branch out from there, but here is our core.

They're already planting idiots in the crowd to discredit it...  so if you're worried about being discredited then that's going to happen either way.

The trick is to actually devise a platform and stick to it...  root out sabateurs...  do everything out in the open...  build goodwill and keep moving forward.

I don't think all goodwill has been lost yet, but it's time to actually...  develop some type of concerted effort.  It just appears to be something that has taken everyone by surprise at its level of success in such a short amount of time...  However, OWS needs to regroup and etch a plan for the next steps...  ultimately, the margins are what change everything...  find the margins. 

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 10:59 | 1856306 lsbumblebee
lsbumblebee's picture

It's true. Art saw the whole thing from the back alley during trash inspection.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:56 | 1857092 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

http://nation.foxnews.com/occupy-wall-street/2011/11/07/occupy-dc-goons-...

LOL, oh man.  Talk about propaganda, disinformation, agent provocateur, they are using the whole playbook on the Occupy movement.  Must be scared!

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:06 | 1856335 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

Geeze...the OWS folks don't know how to get anything done. They should know the most effective way to do things is through symbolic gestures, like the Tea Party. Showing up for symbolic events to throw tea bags into water, while wearing 200-year old costumes AND flag lapel pins is how to get things changed in this country! Or, show up for the monthly buesinessman's breakfast meeting where you can join other TPers in bitching about Obama, taxes, regulations, liberals, etc...and blame everything on the OWS folks "who don't have a clue." After all, it's the symbolism that matters.

Change is right around the corner.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:11 | 1856336 Carlyle Groupie
Carlyle Groupie's picture

ACLU fail to get Kick A Jew Day documents.
http://www.fox4now.com/news/local/133338403.html

I report you decide.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:24 | 1856390 TDoS
TDoS's picture

I don't talk about chemistry much, because I haven't taken a chemistry class since high school.  I don't talk about auto repair much, because I am not that great at fixing cars.  However, I have dedicated myself to the Occupy movement site here in Austin, TX since it began over a month ago, so on this topic, I feel I have a right to speak.

Conversely, if you haven't been participating in an Occupy protest, I think it's probably best if you shut up and check your judgements at the door, because you don't know what you are talking about.  You can't know.  If you aren't there, sleeping there, reaching out to the public, getting shoved by the cops, arrested, all just to show back up, hunker down, and dedicate yourself to emancipating your fellow man from the clutches of a psychotic and dying paradigm, then you are out of your element speaking on this topic.  

Go participate.  Listen to people.  Find out what their personal situation is.  Find out what they are working towards.  You'll find that this is a lot bigger that just Wall Street and corporate greed.  It's about tearing down the walls that have been built between us.  Classes coming together, races coming together, cultures coming together, to no longer rely on the dominant paradigms, but to build new ones from the ground up.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:38 | 1856474 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Just out of curiosity, what do you feel like, marginally, the OWS movement will do that financial gravity (what happens when exponential growth cannot be sustained) will not or sooner than natural events are likely to materialize? 

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:55 | 1856568 TDoS
TDoS's picture

1. Give people access to community and resources they would otherwise not have had after the crash.

2. Destabilize the financial industry by convincing individuals, businesses, and local governments to divest from the major banks.

3. Empower individuals by educating them as to their own level of autonomy and the dangers of statism.

4. Give people a full and honest accounting of what difficulties lie ahead not only as the ponzi economy explodes, but as the biological foundations of life on Earth experience exponential collapse due to industrial activity.

5. Empower individuals by making them realize they are not alone in their dissatisfaction.  No longer must people quietly suffer their outrage at the exploitative hierarchy to which they are forcibly subject.  Strength in numbers.  That is why, as Steinbeck says, "The 'I' to 'we' is the thing to bomb."

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 12:29 | 1856736 Whoa Dammit
Whoa Dammit's picture

These are very worthy goals TDos, but what is the plan for achieving them? Without a concrete plan, to me it is just empty rhetoric like I have heard many times before from politicians.

Plus I cringe inwardly everytime someone uses the "Empower" word or says they are going to "Give" me something.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 12:31 | 1856746 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

1.  Do you mean soup kitchens?  Those already exist...  do you mean information?  Look no further than ZH...

2.  This is not a marginal activity given it is inherently going to happen

3.  You can educate them, I'm not sure you can empower them though...  especially if one accepts the premise that the political system has been usurped.

4.  Good.

5.  Unless the movement actually gets somewhere, by having people voice their dissatiscation, the movement is actually hindering change...  in that it is placating the masses...  much as a religion does.  There is a time limit...  and it's ticking.  This is why it is incredibly important to be organized upon launch...

If marginally speaking OWS is simply an informational campaign, then I fail to see the necessity of protest...  essentially you're telling me it's all a PR stunt.  A good one mind you, but at the expense of credibility for certain...

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 14:00 | 1857115 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Hey, its going to happen, so why do anything.  Just sit and wait. Its inherent.  Its inevitable.  Huh?   Why not be  a part of making it happen?  This movement is actually raising awareness among the population, thats very different than misdirecting and placating people, IMO.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 16:20 | 1857982 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

If you're just wanting to increase awareness, why the protests?  Why the spectacle?  The information is already out there for all to see...  this site being a glaring example.  The more awareness the better imo, but I can't fathom that is the sole goal/want of OWS...  seems like much ado about nothing if that's the case. 

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:27 | 1856945 gwar5
gwar5's picture

Unless you denounce the anarchists/marxists/communists driving the calls for violent revolution in the OWS clown car then you are part of the problem. Go ahead and declare that freedom, property rights, and (real) free markets are fundamental human rights so that we know that you're not just another useful idiot peddling Utopian mysticism for your fellow travelers.

 

Austin is already a hotbed for violent anarchists.  They sent the firebombers to Minnesota and firebombed the TX governor's mansion. They go to Venezuela to get more  marxist indoctrination and militant training, and receive material support to come back to the US to foment the same.  We know that because one of them who went woke up and became an informant and that is how the firebombers were caught in MN before hey killed anybody. With all due respect, your tripe sounds just like the garbage Chavez is peddling.  

Denounce marxism and statism. Denounce he Federal Reserve, Goldman Sachs, JPM Morgan, parasite unions, and their statist puppet, Obama. This is your big chance, go ahead. Otherwise, you are just another fraud.

 

Wed, 11/09/2011 - 13:45 | 1861422 TDoS
TDoS's picture

You're laughable.  Giving me a list of things I must denounce otherwise, by the declaration of internet poster Gwar5, I am a fraud.  

Here it is then, oh gatekeeper of Zerohedge comments page: No, I am not a Marxist.  Though I think everybody should read Marx, because he made a lot of very apt points.  No, I am not a capitalist.  No, I do not care for banks or any politicians. Truthfully, I do not care for money or ownership.  My concerns are the real world, not the lines men have drawn on maps or the ceremonies they have created to perpetuate them.

The real world, as Cormac McCarthy writes, is "where the storms blow and the trees twist in the wind, and all of the creatures God has made go to and fro."

It is life and dignity that I value.  It is life and dignity that I fight for.  As Thoreau wrote: "That government is best which governs not at all;" and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have.

Wed, 11/09/2011 - 15:33 | 1862424 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Geez...  if this is representative of OWS, then the movement is fucked...  if you don't care about ownership, then I'm sure you wouldn't mind bubba rooting around in your asshole and making it his playtoy...  robbing you of the spoils of your labor...  dictating your time.

Literally, your entire post talks about the real word from an academic vacuum...  you should just have written "like why can't we all get along n stuff?" and left it at that...

aside from the devil being in the details (that have plagued men throughout our ENTIRE history).  Not to be defeatist, but OWS isn't going to stumble upon the answer either.  It may be a mechanism of change, but it isn't a platform (yet) of sustainable and viable regrowth.

Wed, 11/09/2011 - 16:28 | 1862781 TDoS
TDoS's picture

When the ponzi collapses, when the grocery stores have no food, when documents in a vault somewhere or digits on a powerless hard drive no longer have meaning, we'll talk about the academic vacuum.  

Property ownership is based on nothing but force.  A minority of people get to claim they own the world.  Anyone who challenges that claim is jailed or killed.  If it was so logical, if it was so natural for this scenario to exist, not only would it have always existed (it didn't) but it would not require such bombastic protections.

Thu, 11/10/2011 - 12:01 | 1866173 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

So you think the land barons in your locale will not have you under the whip at the drop of a hat?  You think that cattle car doesn't have your name on it?  You think the regional chieftan doesn't want to have a nice romp with your wifey (and then let his minions run train behind him)?

It's actually the existence of the government that gives you your freedom...  however, the inherent problem is that the government is easily usurped and perverted (presuming it is born clean).  I'll posit that you have not enough force to protect your ownership of anything in the event of collapse.

And yes, the threat of power perversion has ALWAYS existed.  Some times are simply more perverted than others.  In some scenarios, leaders have more or less ability to concentrate power and dictate control.  I'm not sure how many examples you need historically, but it's been an issue for every civilization...  just throw darts, you'll find a couple.

You can dress up a command economy in sheep's clothing all you want...  we both know it doesn't work and will just eat all of us.

Wed, 11/09/2011 - 16:30 | 1862794 TDoS
TDoS's picture

And this doesn't represent OWS, it represents me.  That's another thing even so called libertarians can't quite grasp, we speak for ourselves, not for everyone.  There are no leaders, there are no spokespeople.  There are individuals working together with a mutual respect and understanding that we are all the slave class.

Thu, 11/10/2011 - 12:44 | 1866331 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

I guess I'll posit that agreeing we're all serfs does not make a stable form of government or governance.  This is where the rubber meets the road.  We can all complain...  we can all rebel...  but I don't really care to do so when we'll be at each other's throats post collapse determining who gets first dibs at the power vacuum.

I'm not saying that movements don't just cause huge change without a serious platform...  these happen all the time...  but what I'm saying is that I don't think middle america is particularly interested in ousting mubarak only to have him replaced with a junta.  Or only to have another civil war over how to proceed (prolifigate spenders vs. savers...  overconsumers vs. responsible users..  smart vs. dumb...  diligent vs. apathetic...  overpopulated vs. resource rich).

In the end, you're fighting the rudimentary nature of humans...  so long as humans exist, so too does conflict, most notably the struggle for power.

It's neat to be mad and all...  it's neat to try and politically mobilize...  but without a viable political and economic platform, our grandchildren are going to be right back in the same boat.  Just as our grandparents were.

My other question...  do you really believe that OWS can effectuate any meaningful change via conventional political methods?  Isn't part of believing you are 99% also realizing the political process has been captured?  If so, what is the point of all of this?  You want the elite to vote themselves out of office?  To scurry back to the caves for hibernation?  I hope you didn't think there was just going to be a perpetual power vacuum.

Do you really think that the 99% are going to come to a consensus once the initial "change" has occurred?  Has this ever actually happened?  I realize induction has its limitations, but still...

The shroud of secrecy protects a hollow core

Thu, 11/10/2011 - 14:29 | 1866845 TDoS
TDoS's picture

"My other question...  do you really believe that OWS can effectuate any meaningful change via conventional political methods? "

Personally, no.  Some OWSers do, but I don't.  I believe we are in an expansion phase. Remember, this is a few weeks in, not years.  This is an awakening phase where we draw people in, find our legs, find our strengths, and find our tactics.  The professional nitpickers who critique everything from the comfort of their easy chairs seem to always forget that this is in it's infancy.  Hell, it's barely out of the womb.  And the more the police bet up college kids, the more people want to get involved. As horrendous as it is, they are giving us our best publicity.

I also don't think we have much choice in whether or not we want to replace certain systems. They are buckling under their own weight.  I don't care how much anyone purports to love capitalism, growth is over.  Capitalism is eating itself to stay alive.  It will kill itself, and people will be left with few options.  When the state swoops in with it's authoritarian control mechanisms as the crash happens, will we embrace them or fight them.  I am going to fight them. This could be people's greatest liberation.  The state running out of gas, running out of cash, running out of soldiers.  

But we need an alternative, which the new localism of OWS will lay the foundations for.

Thu, 11/10/2011 - 15:34 | 1867170 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Many fair points.  I'll concede I am guilty of presumption of trajectory...  I'm simply waiting on the proposal that evolves past the ills of central planning and self interest.  I suppose this is an unfair burden to some extent given we might get a few hundred years of stasis out of the deal.

The easy part is getting general support...  the hard part is getting the support to focus and march the support forward in a determined direction.  Leaderless movements tend to behave...  strangely and without direction.  Eventually someone will need to emerge to lead the charge and emerge with an ethos...  a moral underpinning.

At present, there is no moral underpinning to OWS...  it's basically a nihilistic endeavor hinting at change for change's sake (which is alluring, don't get me wrong, but it might not attract the type of...  foundation necessary for the type of idealized change hoped for).  In order for it to get anywhere with the margins (the people needed for support of any viable movement), it will need to gain moral legitimacy.  This can only be accomplished with a platform.  In other words, at this juncture, middle america, the MSM, and all detractors must view OWS in the worst light possible out of an abundance of caution (natural tendency) because there is no central spokeman or stated goal(s).  For all anyone knows, the entire purpose can be to replace the 1% with a 1% from the 99% and return to normalcy.  This hardly seems a viable plan.

Best of luck making the transition.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:40 | 1856484 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

Nice try TDos, but most here would rather try to come up with witty commentary and act like experts from their keyboards. It's a lot safer than actually doing something. Then, if things go wrong, they can sit back and point out why it all went wrong in an attempted witty way, while continuing to bitch about those in power.

Like a good slave they are used to being a slave so actually doing something to free themselves is scarier than remaining a slave. Hell most of them would defend their slave masters and their enslavement.

Here's a nice video for these folks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdBlZzuadLQ

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:55 | 1856566 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

So, if the political process has been usurped by wall street, et al, then what is it OWS plans to change and how is it that protesting in confined areas is going to accomplish meaningful change?  I think you vastly overestimate: (a) what has been done; and (b) what will be accomplished.

Any major political party nominations?  White house?  Congress?  Lobbying groups?  Laws changed?  Investigations?  Barriers to entry removed from startups?  Simpler and less exploitable tax system?  Control of the money supply?

I mean, realistically, do you see this happening?  Is it going to be like the tea party where you actually do get a seat in congress and as soon as they get in, they vote on their own platform and ignore the party?  Is this process even capable of being changed?

You talk about it with some type of conclusory glory...  "to free themselves" as though this is what is being done...  it's more or less just venting...  there is no apparent vehicle or mechanism for this to lead to political change, for the better...  I realize that this entire process is being developed and is growing, but I have sincere doubts about the viability of the present course...  maybe a faction that gets its shit together will have a chance and can cash in on the goodwill, but I'm not sure the odds are in its favor.  There's going to have to be a whole lot of soul searching before then...  and, in the end, I'm not sure how dissimilar any such faction would be from the tea party...  except more "fresh".

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 13:04 | 1856866 tj3
tj3's picture

Absolutely (I that's how you think right?), they need to get a haircut, some good suit and ties and work the system. Just like the 70's hippies, you know the NeoCons. yeah that's it that's the ticket. It's the establish way or the highway! Go Fed! God Bless Gold and Bernake and Greenspain. Volker is a stick in the mud. If he had played the game like the others we might have finished the world-wide financial implosion by now. Think about it. What a fuckin joke.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 14:37 | 1857377 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Eh no, you're missing the point.  The point is that because of the largess of governments and the pervasiveness of the nanny state, there is an expectation that money grows from trees (by both wallstreet and OWS).  When OWS rolls up its sleeves and says, we're willing to be productive and ensure that others are as well, then the dynamic changes...  At this point, staring at the reality of actually working, they haven't made a decision yet.  Just an FYI, taxing the rich at 100% of their earnings will work for a short time...  emphasis on short before mom and dad come home from vacation.

I say this as someone who presently isn't productive, despite working...  essentially my job is solely as a result of inefficiencies in our system of governance (law/accounting).  I look forward to the day I don't have a job because the only jobs are productive ones (due to market forces, not central planning)...  I don't fear this because I actually know productive trades in addition to my day job...  Relatively speaking, I'll probably be much better off.

With systemic unemployment, the notion of get a job deadbeat does not exist...  unless they create it...  but, I'm not seeing a change in values or perspectives to match this reality...  I still see people looking to uncle sam for help, even though uncle sam is to blame.  But this is to be expected from battered wives.

I don't want them to work the system...  I just want them to understand the genesis of their problems and to protest accordingly...  I also don't see much point in protesting if you can ever acknowledge that the political process is broken...  basically a rudimentary acknowledgment that your protests are destined for nowhere.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:48 | 1856542 Clowns on Acid
Clowns on Acid's picture

Dude TDoS - all that was tried before...totally ineffective. We have a system, a Constitution that has been trampled on by the Treasury and Fed (to the benefit of bankrupt banks and their CEOs).

Get your arms around that concept, and get invoilved with your local politician to feckin' change. The Tea Party is a good example of focussed protest. Cut Taxes and Spending Now.

OWS is a waste of time and serves only to divide more. Get a job, go from there.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 12:01 | 1856601 TDoS
TDoS's picture

Ah, the classic "get a job," line.  Is there an asshat email list that circulates, telling it's members to spew this nonsense as if it is somehow a valid criticism?

First, I have a job, thanks.  I hate it, to be sure, and as soon as I can afford a couple acres of farmland -- in cash -- I will be quitting.  Assuming nothing changes dramatically, I should be able to do that within the year.

Second, fuck politicians and politics.  Voting is a sham.  People are figuring out how to organize themselves in an egalitarian, horizontal fashion.  Remember, this has only been going on for about six weeks.  SIX FUCKING WEEKS!  It's already changed the national debate, and people are coming out of the woodwork in cities around the country, finding that they can organize themselves without force, without the baton of the state, to accomplish their goals.  

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 12:07 | 1856639 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

the Occupy movement site here in Austin, TX since it began over a month ago,

 

Rest assured, Austin has been "occupied" for a lot longer than a month.  Decades.  The whole mantra of the city is to make the latest generation feel like they are the purveyors of change.  Watch out for the bird poop, it's pretty concentrated on 4th street.

Wed, 11/09/2011 - 16:38 | 1862840 TDoS
TDoS's picture

The whole nation is occupied.  Occupied by usurpers who claim to believe in the rights of private property, but who flatly refuse to acknowledge that they live on land acquired through theft, fraud, and massacre.   Austin is no exception.  It is occupied Tonkawa land, occupied Apache land.  

People would like to believe that the passage of time absolved the bloodshed on which their country was built.  They justify owning their home because they bought it.  And the guy they bought it from bought it.  And that guy bought it from someone before him.  But something happens if you follow that chain back a mere hundred and fifty or so years.  Some guy or group of guys participated in murdering the people who had lived where our current homes sit.  

If you believe in man's right to own land, and if you believe that crime is crime and that it doesn't become less criminal with time, then you must acknowledge you are the beneficiary of murder, and in order to be pure of logic and moral, you should want to cede a large portion of this nation back to the natives.  Other wise you're just talking out your ass when you speak of freedom, and are always only really pressing for your own freedom, your own right to own.  

Fuck the mountains of people we climb upon to reach the summit, right?

Thu, 11/10/2011 - 12:58 | 1866442 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Is there any society past or present that doesn't have the same or similar ills?  No tribe usurped another tribe to get the land that was usurped by smallpox blankets and fire water?  How far back we going?  How do we know who to pay remedy?

I hope OWS is more occupied with worrying about the people who presently have boots on their necks than worrying about centuries old love affairs.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:33 | 1856442 Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula's picture

I was curious so I drove by Occupy Seattle recently. Were they blocking bridges? Blocking government or corporate buildings?

No. Basically you have one block full of a whole bunch of tents.

These tent-dwellers should try occupying jobs instead.

 

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 12:06 | 1856631 Savvy
Savvy's picture

That ain't really fair when jobless rates are so high and long-term unemployment sets records every week. But it's who and what is behind the whole movement that sets my alarm off. Zucotti Park is owned by Brookfield Properties on who's board of directors Mayor Bloomberg's g/f Diana L. Taylor sits. John Zucotti himself wrote Obamacare bill (with a little help) and lo and behold, within a week of the OWS taking over Zucotti park, Brookfield properties got a $168 million loan guarantee from the DOE to start up :drumroll please: a WIND FARM!! Yes a wind farm. Hello Solyndra? Your brother called and says :neener:

 

ROFLMFAO!!

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:33 | 1856452 riley martini
riley martini's picture

 In Seattle they collected so much money they sent some to Oakland . The movement needs a focused anti-fascist pro-constitution message . 

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:33 | 1856455 Ura Bonehead
Ura Bonehead's picture

I think my favorite story is an exchange between a Wall Streeter and a ‘protestor’ where the Wall Streeter engaged the young man in a debate (that became testy) about the virtues of Wall Street, capitalism, job creation, wealth, 'redistribution of wealth'….  The whole basket of poorly focused liberal complaints that seem to flow from the street.  After 30 minutes of this the Wall Streeter smiled at the young man, reached out to give him a big huge, then said, “Enjoyed the talk, son.  Mom wants to make sure you’ll be home for Thanksgiving.  Your room is clean.”

Probably not true but funny nonetheless.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:35 | 1856458 3ringmike
3ringmike's picture

It's amazing to me how many people are opposed to citizens that want to gather in protest against a system that no longer works for the majority. When i mention to people I know that I'm heading down to Occupy L.A. the reactions are almost always negative. 'What do you expect to accomplish doing that? They are just all homeless bums hanging out down there! They have no agenda. They all smoke dope!' I just tell them that I don't know anything about it, because I haven't been there yet. I will let them them know when I return what I saw there. So just relax! Why are you so frightened! I have no way of expressing my disgust in the system as it is. I'm done talking and talking. RELAX.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:42 | 1856492 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

I wouldn't call it opposition so much as dismissal...

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 11:49 | 1856544 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

It's the usual conservative hypocrisy. You have to remember that when a conservative talks about freedom, they mean THEIR freedom to do whatever they damned well please, including stopping the freedom of others they dislike, and everyone else is free to just accept whatever the conservative wants to do.

I'm with you, it is strange to watch a bunch of people who claim they want a change in the system bitch about people who are trying to do something beyond posting messages on Zerohedge and other message boards. Apparently these posters cannot process information either as most say the usual "get a job" types of stale comments, while ignoring the unemployment stats.

Cognitive dissonance runs rampant.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 12:03 | 1856616 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

 

 

I for one don't oppose anyone organizing.  The reality is that OWS is a futile effort, because it has no clarity of purpose.  So I view it as a waste of time and, as these things go, an open invitation to the anarchists that infiltrate such message-less movements. 

When you sit back, you'll see that OWS isn't really trying to change the system - it's really trying to influence the system to promote different outcomes.  That's hypocrisy to me.  The system has failed, it's just that all of the ramifications have not come to pass as yet.  I put my energy into preparing for what's to come and how I might help shape the new.

But party on...

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 12:08 | 1856643 TDoS
TDoS's picture

It's not that the message isn't clear, it's that the message doesn't fit the parameters allowed by the current system and it's gatekeepers.  I love that about it.  I don't want to bend and squeeze and contort the energy of the Occupy movement so it can fit into a thirty second sound bite on CNBC.

http://growfoodraisehell.tumblr.com/post/12329947173/we-dont-want-the-wo...

http://www.realitysandwich.com/occupy_wall_street_no_demand_big_enough

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 12:18 | 1856688 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

 

 

I bet the message gets real clear when the peyote is good, no?

Wed, 11/09/2011 - 13:49 | 1861442 TDoS
TDoS's picture

Again, an attempt at a "dig."  Mature.  Also, I'll take it as racist, as you seem to be drawing a correlation between my avatar, a native man, and the drug peyote.

 

Wed, 11/09/2011 - 16:33 | 1862810 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

 

 

Deflection from the core issue - there is no message of OWS.  You can't articulate it; you can articulate A message, but not one that has any unified support from the dyslexia of the occupyers.  Racist thing is a red herring and you know it.

Tue, 11/08/2011 - 12:10 | 1856652 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

I think some of us conservatives might be a little...  skeptical of any movement that is solely predicated upon "change".  You might recall a recent president who ran on a slogan of "change"...  it seems as though people were so desperate for change, they forgot to ask what kind of change... 

So what kind of change does OWS propose, exactly?  How is this change to be implemented?  Who will be affected? 

Change, for the sake of change, is not anything healthy and poses significant risks...  so you manage to oust the premiere only to have a military junta follow him...  good job...  nice change.

It seems to me there is a total disconnect between identifying that the political process is broken and attempting to use the political process to effectuate political change...  I'll posit that the movement will never achieve any political goals (whatever they may be) because all of the prospective mechanisms for change have been usurped.  For all practical purposes, I see no difference between chatting on the internet and sitting in a tent...  you can stop tooting your own horn now.

PS, conservatism isn't inherently hypocritical...  some of us are capable of formulating internally consistent theories and actions.  What you're actually talking about is liberalism (the desire to control others, e.g. the nanny state)...  and, both the democrats and republicans are full of liberals, despite many calling themselves conservatives.  It all boils down to one question, should the size and scope of the government be expanded?  The answer to this question determines your political lean.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!