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The right and left meet at this point: recognition of the oligarchy. Business and political elites are running the country for their own benefit.
Exactly... this is not the left people versus right. The governments divide and conquer the people will not work. This is the 99% of the American people against the corrupt and mismanaged federal government who are raping the country for the benefit of the .01-1 percent.
I wish that were true because there are things in the OWS movement that i agree with but unfortunately, moveon.org, Media Matters, Soros, and the Unions are making it a left people versus right.
Good for you -- purity is sorely lacking in our world.
wait. Art Cashin quoted the Coultergeist?
Is there no one left to believe in?
Be VERY happy that you don't have to wake up to her in the morning!
Sadly correct. It's becoming evident the "Occupy Wall Street" crowd is much the the same as the MoveOn.org crowd that is going to line up and try to re-elect the current oligarch in the White House. These are leftists that love big government and collectivism as long as they are getting the policies they want. Perhaps unknowingly, it is precisely their willingness to cede their economic liberty to the federal government that has made the extent of corruption and corporatism possible.
Got a camel and a riding crop?
No, just a coherent philosophy. Is that too much to ask?
I just think a camel and riding crop setup would be more effective in disrupting the leftist protests.
I don't want to disrupt the protests, I'd just rather they'd do a better job at thinking things through to their logical conclusion so that when it comes time to vote for someone they don't ask for more of the same.
I'm disinclined to believe that voting is going to be the catalyst for change.
Maybe, maybe not. But then, peaceful protest probably isn't either.
There 4 boxes to be used in defense of liberty, the ballot box, soap box, jury box, and ammo box.
Sadly, you're probably right, and we're running out of boxes. Hedge accordingly.
the only box that works is the ammo box, and the masters of the universe and their dogs (cops) know it.
The ammo box works for removing tyrannical regimes, but leaves the risk that something even worse might fill the resulting power vacuum.
As well as legitimize the idea that violence is acceptable as a social solution, when it really just lays the groundwork for the next uprising.
As long as ppl vote for politicians nothing will ever change. Will a true statesman please standup?
Don't you see the contradiction here: You don't want people voting for politicians, but you want a statesman to stand up (presumably to be elected?)!?! :-S
The first step should be to revert to a Republic of Sovereign States (ie. with 50 different state governments that we can begin to sort out one-by-one) by dismantling the Federal Government altogether. Washington DC is beyond repair and causing more damage every day with its printers, its military and its police state apparatus.
All we need is a group of people to edit the original Articles of Confederation to include the imperial conquests that expanded the original 13 states into 50, then let's get cracking!
if you're gonna put it that way, how about some invisible green arrows?
RON PAUL 2012 !
*sigh* ... statists never learn!!
Now, tell me again, what choices we are likely to see at the ballot box?
coherent philosophy ?
At the extremes the left and the right always merge into some form of Dictatorship. Sometimes benevolent, sometimes not.
But when you are jobless, and the future is bleak, a coherent philosophy is a luxury, not a necessity.
I disagree. If you are despairing to the point that you will protest/sacrifice/whatever it takes to affect a change, you damn well better have an understanding of what is going on so that the ultimate cause is worth it.
They (the attendees) will gain that understanding when they are told what is is. Until then, it is a huge (and growing) team-building session, gaining all of the "usual suspects." - Ned
That wasn't a real camel. It was John Negroponte and Paul Wolfowitz in a camel suit.
don't be so quick to judge. many are dissappointed with obama on the left as well.
True lefties Hate that corporate whore in the white house.
Really? True lefties are too stupid to understand there is a corporate whore in the white house. True lefties covered up for Stalin, who was 10x the genocidal manic that Hitler was, and that's saying something. They didn't really [and don't] have a problem with Mao either.
But they will gladly re-elect BHO. Four more years.
Look, the protests may not have a coherent message at this point but the protests of Wall Street and corporate greed even if the protestors don't know exactly why they are doing it are a good thing. They are bringing people's attention to it. People are now asking "what should they be requesting" and thinking further about why people are angry in the first place. And there are many among the protestors who know exactly what they want, which may be different specific things, but they all coincide with the fact that our current financial oligarchical system does not work for the vast majority of the country. The movement will become more organized and even if it ultimately fails it is making people more aware that there IS something to protest, which can only be a good thing.
Yes, and if there are demands, and if momentum gains, then be very careful of what you're actually buying.
For example, I walked through the protest last night on the way home from work to get a feel for it. Along the way, off to one side, I saw three very well-fed looking people in MTA / TWU garb talking to one of the protestors. The TWU guy talking had a quirk of a smile on his face, saying "Oh yes, we should work together more...." To root out corruption in power...uh huh, right.
Anyway, I have marched in far bigger protests than this in NYC that caused nary a ripple. It's good theater, and yes the word is getting out, but (a) for most in the US, events in NYC seem roughly as relevant as events on Mars; and (b) revolutions are made to be co-opted, and there are many, many groups ready to co-opt this one if it actually gets somewhere.
"for most in the US, events in NYC seem roughly as relevant as events on Mars"
Timing is everything you know....
Most of America is just now learning about OWS. Give it time. Already there are several other "occupys" -- K-Street, the various FED buildings, Washington, and more will come. The seeds are germinating.
i agree, there are probably millions just waiting for protests to get organized.
for some to suggest there is no point in protesting, or that every protest must have a clear message, well they must be living under a rock
for every protester there could be a seperate and distinct reason
i doubt the american revolution began just because of the tax on tea
If one cares to Look or Listen then they'd know there ARE demands and a clear message.
But you got to look beyond the Corporate media for christ sakes.
Use that thingy called the googles on the internets!
Here's a clear list of demands. They actually DO fall in line with some TP rhetoric.
1. Reinstate Glass-Steagall
This would re-create a regulatory wall between commercial and investment banking. (The repeal of this act in 1999 is said by some to have contributed towards the financial crisis.)
2. Bring alleged Wall Street criminals to justice
Ensure appropriate federal agencies fully investigate and prosecute the alleged Wall Street criminals that were responsible for the financial crisis
3. Repeal the Citizens United Supreme Court ruling
Enact legislation to protect democracy which would restrict corporations from allegedly 'buying elections'. By reversing the effect of the Citizens United Supreme Court ruling, corporations would be highly limited in ability to contribute to political campaigns - no matter what the election and no matter what the form of media.
4. Fair taxation
Pass the Buffet Rule on fair taxation, so the rich pay their fair share.
5. Revamp the Securities and Exchange Commission
This would ensure the integrity of the marketplace is protected, meaning citizens and investors are also both protected.
6. Increased political transparency
Limit the influence of lobbyists at Congress, and increase political transparency so people know what Congress is up to.
7. Congress passing 'revolving door legislation'
Passing legislation eliminating the ability of former government regulators going to work for corporations that they once regulated.
8. Instate a Tobin Tax
A Tobin tax would hurt Wall Street bonuses and curb high-frequency and other trading activity.
9. Eliminate 'personhood' legal status for corporations
None of the demands you listed are a ringing endorsement.
Most are dogs of a different color.
Repeal Citizens United. And what about Moveon.org and big unions?So, corporations are barred from having a political interest but the elections can be bought by 501(c) corporations? Why split the hair of one entity spending another persons money and be treated differently than activist groups. And what is the difference between the two, exactly?
Fair taxation: This one is vexing. Define fair. 50%? 80% Just define the word fair.Who gets to be the arbiter or fairness? What if you live in a big house while I have to rent a small apartment, that is not fair. Shouldn't you be forced to sell your big house? It's not about equality, this BS never is... it is about the appearence of equality through coercion. The government forces us all to play nicely, even millionaires. Golly, isn't it sad to learn that redistibution really is profoundly evil (not to mention regressive).
And why are you so hot to give the government more money? Do you believe they will pay down debt or spend/waste even more? Even odds they spend every cent of any tax increase + added deficits and then come back next year pleading poverty.
Sorry, your list of greivances is a bunch of big government nonsense. There is a name for the pathology and delusions you suffer from.The word isDemocrat
Some people were unclear about the list of demands - thought i'd post it for everyone's edification.
Now if you want to ask my personal opinion, well, I'm an anarcho-communist, so it's doubtfull we can even talk about it since we lack a common reference point about just about everything. I don't believe in goverment, nations, finance, marketing, or even money -- at all. I believe in systems theory, resource management, education, and quality of life.
The ship is sinking, so ...... stop fucking around with the deck chairs!!!!!
How about we get govt the F*(& out of everything and let things work themselves out. I swear 99% of the so called answers start with " The Government needs to" . thats the damn problem. the Govt. I was 18 and voted for my first presidential election. the candidate stated it more simply than has ever been tried again. The Govt is not the solution to the problem. The Govt is the problem.
Most the poeple here don't have a cogent message either.
I'm loving the OWS show; OWS = ontological wing-nuts screaming. Shows the failures of the US educational system, her rejection of moral foundations, and the results of culturally embracing the "me" generation, all wrapped up in one.
Sadly, what we are seeing is the beginning of the synergy between three things:
#1 Demographic inversion in which the older generation selfishly laid their debts (Social Security & free health care) and political wants on the younger; the latter are rightly very pissed off.
#2 A younger generation (OWS) raised, literally, as Pagans; which means they will have no moral check when it comes to "correcting" the selfishness of #1 via violent selfishness (think French Revolution)
#3 A younger generation that has been led to believe that an educational system that values "self-enlightenment" and has jettisoned the study of Philosophy, can educate man. It can not, and on a daily basis OWS shows the depth of ignorance and shallowness of knowledge now infecting society. Classic example, "isn't it amazing how these kids know technology" - older generation talking about kids playing video games and texting on cell phones.
Go watch Idiocracy and Mad Max girls, one of them is someday coming to your town.
Interesting, cogent observations.
Am I to assume that "ontological wing nuts" should be looking to Wall Street for moral foundations?
On point #2 -- "moral values" don't prevent violence in crisis situations or conflicts. Rather, religion and other ethical systems can justify violence and render it harsher by virtue of its absolute righteousness. As a product of the "pagan" postmodern, relativist stew myself, I see a lack of the necessary commitment to undertake harsh or extreme measures outside the world of video games. "Selfishness" rather takes lower risk forms of self-expression and, to a lesser extent as yet, self-sacrifice through nonviolent tactics.
points 1 and 3 are cogent....
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