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Behold The New Anschluss: ECB's Paramo - "Prepare To Give Up Significant Sovereignty"

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The only quote worth noting from the just delivered speech by ECB executive board member José Manuel González-Páramo is the following: "We cannot completely delegate governance to financial markets. The euro area is the world’s second largest monetary area. It cannot depend solely on the opinions of ratings agencies and markets. It needs economic governance arrangements that are preventive and linear. This underscores my central point that a much more comprehensive approach to economic governance is now the priority for the euro area. And this means more economic and financial integration for the euro area, with a significant transfer of sovereignty to the EMU level over fiscal, structural and financial policies." In other words, in order to protect people from the "stupidity" of rating agencies which after years of lying have finally started telling the truth, and the market which does what it always does, and punishes those who fail, Europe must be prepared to give up "significant sovereignty" (sounds better than Anschluss) to Europe's "betters" which is another way of saying 'he who pays the piper calls the tune." And "he" in this case is, of course, Germany. In other words, courtesy of one failed monetary experiment Germany will succeed, without sheeding one drop of blood, where it failed rather historically some 70 years ago.

Full speech:

Speech by José Manuel González-Páramo, Member of the Executive Board of the ECB, at the Oxford University European Affairs Society, 24 November 2011


Ladies and Gentlemen,

Thank you very much for inviting me to speak here this evening in the “City of Dreaming Spires”. The aims of the Oxford University European Affairs Society – fostering understanding of political, social and cultural issues across Europe – have never been more relevant than today. In the sovereign debt crisis, Europe faces one of its greatest ever challenges. The question is how to confront it. We should learn from the present and the recent past. And we should look forward, since future prosperity in Europe depends on our collective success in overcoming the crisis. Citizens in both creditor and debtor countries have to look beyond national interests. Ultimately, this can only be sustained through deeper common understanding and stronger sense of what it means to be European.

The sovereign debt crisis will be the theme of my remarks today. I do not want to engage in the minutiae of the issue or signal any particular policy stance by the ECB. Instead, I would like to take a step back from the crisis and reflect on what it has taught us so far about economic and monetary union in Europe. Obviously, I concentrate explicitly on the euro area, i.e. the seventeen countries sharing the single currency. The status and role of the United Kingdom, the dynamics of the British domestic debate on Europe, and the cooperation with the Continent in addressing the crisis are not the focus of my remarks.

I have three main propositions.

First, membership of EMU entails much deeper policy changes than were originally realised. In 1991, Hans Tietmeyer, the former President of the Bundesbank, remarked that “monetary union is not just a technical matter. It is in itself, to some extent, a political union”. What has become clear is that countries that adopt the euro as their currency are required to adjust fundamentally the way in which they conduct their economic and financial policies. At the same time, ensuring overall stability requires far-reaching coordination in economic and financial governance. It would be difficult to understand that in the world’s second largest monetary area governance is outsourced solely to the markets and ratings agencies. Effective governance of an economic area of such importance requires much closer economic and financial union.

Second, in response to the crisis, a much more radical change in euro area governance has taken place than many observers seem to acknowledge. Europe tends to reform incrementally, at times creating frustration at the pace of change. But those increments now add up to a fundamental overhaul of its economic management. The reasons this has not been more effective in calming the crisis are complex, but communication stands out among them: In “selling” their reforms, euro area authorities are forced to walk a tightrope between the expectations of national electorates and financial markets, and risk satisfying neither. The only solution to this democracy-market dialectic is, again, much closer economic and financial union.

Third, and contrary to a strand of current thinking, the Treaty prohibition on monetary financing is supporting rather than threatening euro area integration. In the euro area, the central bank is “doubly removed” from the political systems of individual countries: it is not only constitutionally independent, but also elevated to the supranational level. Euro area governments cannot expect the ECB to finance public deficits. As a result, they must be commensurately more ambitious in their economic policies and more disciplined in their management of public finances to support their debt levels. Moreover, given the prohibition on monetary financing, having a banking sector which can support growth and provide adequate financing to the real economy in Europe requires a stronger regulatory and governance framework, so as to prevent negative feedback loops between banks and sovereigns. By forcing policymakers to focus their reform efforts on the right priorities the monetary financing prohibition offers an incentive to closer economic and financial union.

First proposition: The need for radical changes in national economic policy-making.

Let me begin with my first proposition, that membership of EMU entails much deeper policy changes than were previously acknowledged. The crisis has shown very clearly that countries that adopt the euro have to alter the conduct of their economic policies. These changes are fundamental. Among them, three are particularly relevant.

First, in a monetary union fiscal and supervisory authorities have to adopt policies that counteract the emergence of private financial imbalances at the national level. This is a consequence of the ECB’s legal obligation to maintain price stability in the euro area – defined as an inflation rate of below, but close to, 2% over the medium term. Private debts denominated in euros cannot be ‘inflated away’.

Second, fiscal and other national macroeconomic policies have to ensure competitiveness by resisting increases in nominal trends. This is the implication of sharing an exchange rate; devaluation cannot be used as a tool for any one country to regain competitiveness. Benchmarking against other euro area countries is unavoidable.

Third, fiscal authorities have to build up sufficient buffers in good times to withstand adverse conditions. This follows from the prohibition on monetary financing which prevents the central bank from directly financing governments as well as the so-called ‘no bail out clause’ of the Treaty which prohibits a Member State to assume the liabilities of another Member State. The failure to build adequate fiscal buffers during times of economic growth means that during recessions governments are forced to implement fiscal policies that are more pro-cyclical than would otherwise be the case.

Some in this audience may respond that these policy requirements were evident to sharp-eyed observers. Indeed, the ECB had been making these points for many years. But they were not so widely acknowledged as to make a difference. For every economic argument in favour of policy adjustment, a contrary one could be found justifying the path taken. This meant many euro area countries did not internalise the policy requirements of monetary union. In fact, almost the opposite policies were pursued in some countries.

The lack of an adequate regulatory and macro-prudential framework meant that in many economies the banking sector supported an unbalanced and unsustainable expansion of credit during the period of low interest rates. The financial sector also became over-leveraged and engaged in excessive risk taking. Although at the time many in the financial industry justified this with arguments about how financial engineering created possibilities for sophisticated risk diversification, a posteriori it has become evident that risk was seriously mispriced in the period before the crisis.

National wage-setting and labour market regulatory frameworks have also proved to be inadequate. Rather than resisting nominal trends, before the crisis strong wages put pressure on price competitiveness, often justified by theories of catching-up effects. Fiscal discipline also proved too lax. Rather than building up buffers during ‘the good times’, increased tax revenues associated with the pre-crisis housing booms were treated as structural rather than cyclical, justified by models demonstrating new growth trends.

Taken together, this meant that some of the euro area countries entered the global financial crisis in an unnecessarily vulnerable position. This explains to a large extent the situation we are now in.

However, these policy failures were also made possible by a general failure to acknowledge the new governance responsibilities associated with membership of EMU. Put simply, “keeping your own house in order” is necessary, but not sufficient, in a highly integrated monetary union. It is the responsibility of every euro area government to exercise vigorous and effective mutual surveillance over others’ policies. As a crisis in a country like Greece representing only 2% of euro area GDP can become systemic, disregarding EMU governance may come at a high cost to taxpayers.

Yet the latter was the attitude prevailing prior to the crisis. The Stability and Growth Pact – the set of EU level rules for guiding fiscal policies – was never properly implemented. Member States tended to adopt a principle of “non-interference” over each others’ policies. Peer pressure, on which the framework was predicated, gave way to peer support. By watering-down of SGP in 2004-05, the largest euro area countries signalled that they had no stake in the rules. This allowed a certain country to run deficits over 3% of GDP every year it was in EMU and never face corrective action.

Moreover, the euro area surveillance framework was “blind in one eye”, with no formal framework for monitoring macroeconomic and financial imbalances. The Lisbon Strategy focused on the structural level, but on policy implementation rather than imbalances. Eurogroup discussions on imbalances had no enforcement mechanism. The Lamfalussy framework for financial supervision did not use the concept of systemic risk. Thus a situation prevailed where countries could be congratulated for strong headline fiscal numbers when these data in fact reflected substantial imbalances that were building up in the private sector.

To a certain extent, the weakness of these governance procedures was linked to a misplaced faith in market discipline. The institutional design of EMU gave market discipline a central role in economic governance. The absence of a transfer mechanism between Member States was supposed to encourage markets to actively discriminate between euro area issuers. This was based on the assumption that financial markets would always have perfect incentives to enforce the “rules of the game”.

This assumption, in retrospect, looks somewhat naïve. It is well established in the academic literature that markets have complex incentives and dynamics. Market psychology tends towards pro-cyclicality. Perceptions converge around certain information sources, such as ratings, or certain benchmarks, such as indices, which creates herd behaviour. Structural features of the financial system, such as the role of ratings in financial regulation and investment mandates, create an embedded non-linearity in market reactions to news.

What we witnessed in the euro area, therefore, was not a rigorous analysis of sovereign risks but rather an undershooting followed by a dramatic, and perhaps excessive, correction. Spreads converged for all euro area countries before 2008, despite high debt levels in some countries and clear evidence of emerging imbalances. Now we have moved to the opposite extreme: some euro area countries are confronting phenomena like sudden stops and buyers’ strikes that were in the past associated only with emerging markets.

As we have seen in recent months, market discipline can be a strong and useful force in encouraging countries to make long-needed reforms. But it is also, clearly, an unstable way to ensure good policies. Reform decisions have to be made hastily in dramatic meetings. Politicians lack time to explain the need for reform to their constituencies and build consensus behind them. It may even be the case that countries have to go “too far, too fast” to restore market confidence. There is also a serious risk of uncontrollable contagion to other countries.

In other words, we cannot completely delegate governance to financial markets. The euro area is the world’s second largest monetary area. It cannot depend solely on the opinions of ratings agencies and markets. It needs economic governance arrangements that are preventive and linear. This underscores my central point that a much more comprehensive approach to economic governance is now the priority for the euro area. And this means more economic and financial integration for the euro area, with a significant transfer of sovereignty to the EMU level over fiscal, structural and financial policies.

Second proposition: Significant governance reforms have already been taking place.

Europe has responded to these policy, governance and market failures by undergoing a multi-year process of institutional reform. This leads me to my second proposition: that a much more radical change in euro area governance has taken place than many observers seem to acknowledge. There is a tendency to see the euro area response to the crisis as perennially behind-the-curve – as “too little, too late”. I concede that national authorities have not always been effective in stabilising financial conditions. But I also think this assessment lacks an appropriate benchmark. Observers expect a new “silver bullet” every few months and when one is not delivered, they are disappointed.

But if we choose a more appropriate benchmark – say, the euro area in 2009 – a quite different picture emerges. The sum of the incremental steps taken since that date are, in fact, now a very big step.

Take for example economic governance. The EU Council and European Parliament have agreed on a legislative package that significantly limits the discretion of national authorities, even when imposing sanctions on themselves. This includes a framework for monitoring a wide range of macroeconomic imbalances, also backed by sanctions. Countries are expected to anchor fiscal prudence in national rules, creating a much more “vertically integrated” concept of governance. All these measures were unthinkable four years ago.

If we look at the conclusions of Euro Summit on 26 October – dismissed by some observers as insufficient – we see even more radical steps envisaged for the future. Euro area countries have committed to adopt balanced budget rules. They have agreed to base their budgets on independent growth forecasts. They have agreed to stick to the recommendations of the Commission when implementing the Stability and Growth Pact. Countries in the Excessive Deficit Procedure – which is currently 14 out of 17 euro area countries – will allow the Commission to examine draft national budgets and monitor budget execution.

Although some of the recent governance reforms, like those that formed part of the so-called “Six-pack” proposed by the European Commission, fall short of the “quantum leap” that the ECB had long advocated for the euro area, they still represent significant progress relative to the situation prevailing before the crisis.

The creation of the European Financial Stability Facility and future European Stability Mechanism could also not have been imagined in 2007. The euro area has institutionalised the provision of sovereign liquidity and agreed to a Treaty change to ensure its legality. As the new facilities have developed, they have acquired a range of tools. The current mandate of the EFSF not only allows it to extend temporary loans to euro area governments in need, but also to buy bonds in both the secondary and primary markets, to act on the basis of a precautionary programme and to finance bank recapitalisations through loans to governments including in non programme countries. The resources committed to the EFSF are substantial. The ESM, which will have a paid-in capital of €80 billion and callable capital of €620 billion, has a capital base around three times that of the European Investment Bank. At the 26 October Euro Summit euro area leaders also agreed on two schemes which will allow a significant leveraging of existing EFSF resources in order to increase the fund’s ability to act.

But perhaps the most significant development, relative to past expectations, is the implementation of root-and-branch reform programmes in a number of euro area countries. One should not underestimate the significance of EU-IMF programmes for structural changes in some economies. They are dealing with long-needed pension reforms, opening up closed sectors of the economy, modernising public administration. In terms of collective economic management, this development goes further than many federations. Can we imagine, for example, the U.S. federal government requiring a similar depth of reform in California?

Countries outside of EU-IMF programmes have also implemented major reforms. Spain has recently passed a constitutional balanced budget amendment, disproving the view that major policy changes are impossible in an election year. Italy has agreed to a technocratic government to ensure structural reforms are implemented, and invited the IMF to give extra credibility to this process. All euro area countries, except those under a programme, have committed themselves to bringing their budget deficits below 3% of GDP by 2013 at the latest. Overall, the forward commitments of euro area countries to fiscal sustainability go far beyond what has been agreed in the U.S. or Japan.

Each of these measures, seen individually, may not represent the “shock-and-awe” or “big bazooka” that some commentators and markets participants call for. But when seen collectively, they represent a comprehensive broadening and deepening of euro area economic governance. And relative to a reasonable benchmark – the status quo ante – they are very significant developments.

It is also worth noting that many steps have been taken to strengthen the financial sector regulation and supervision. Under the leadership of the G20, a remarkable amount of work has been done by the Financial Stability Board (FSB) and the Basel Committee in a demanding timeframe. Profound regulatory reforms need to be implemented to address the underlying deficiencies that have become apparent in our financial system.

In general, Europe is exceeding international benchmarks in implementing these reforms. The Commission issued a proposal in July 2011 aimed at transposing the Basel III framework into EU Law. By doing this, it is among the first to introduce the Basel III framework and is taking a leading role in delivering on the G20 commitments. In line with Basel III, the Commission’s proposal (so-called CRD IV) provides for higher minimum capital requirements, a stricter definition of eligible capital and more transparency. It also introduces also entirely new concepts, such as mandatory liquidity requirements and a non-risk-based leverage ratio.

Beyond the micro-prudential dimension of regulation, the proposal introduces macro-prudential elements, most prominently the countercyclical capital buffer regime. This constitutes an important safeguard to protect the banking sector from periods of excessive aggregate credit growth. And on top of this, the European Council has recently decided that European banks need to have a 9% core tier one capital ratio by the middle of next year, instead of by 2018, as agreed by the Basel Committee.

Other important regulatory initiatives are underway. These include the establishment of an appropriate regulatory framework for over-the-counter derivatives, enhanced oversight of Credit Rating Agencies, the prevention of systemic risk coming from the “shadow banking sector” and an EU crisis management framework for bank recovery and resolution. As regards the supervisory framework, a new system of financial supervision has been established creating, for the first time, European level macro-prudential supervision through the European Systemic Risk Board (ESRB).

This discussion raises an obvious question: if so much has been achieved since 2009, why have euro area authorities not been more effective in halting the crisis?

In my view this is fundamentally a political question, related to making policy between 17 sovereign democracies. Unlike a unitary state, the euro area has 17 Heads of State, 17 Finance Ministers, and countless national parliamentarians. It can only be expected that their communication on difficult topics may sometimes diverge. As we have seen on many occasions, this triggers difficult feedback loops between politics and markets which ultimately undermine the impact of agreed policy measures.

On one level this is a procedural problem: our institutions are not effective enough in ensuring political leaders speak with one voice. But on a deeper level, it is a problem deriving from the fundamentally different expectations of domestic populations and financial markets. Markets expect messages of confidence, of immediacy, of unlimited capacity to act. Domestic populations want to know the limits of their liability, to ensure that actions are just and fair, to make sure past mistakes are not repeated.

A classic example of this divergence has been the debate over private sector involvement. For a domestic audience, banks should internalise the consequences of their lending decisions and should be punished for their past behaviour. But from a financial market perspective, such communication is disastrous. It signals to investors that assets that were previously risk-free are no longer so, that the euro area is a market where their investments are not guaranteed. And as markets are forward-looking, they sell their assets today. This immediately undermines the progress I have just described.

A second example is the implementation of crisis response decisions. Markets expect quick, bold and “shock-and-awe” decisions on highly complex matters. They are exasperated that something can be agreed by leaders but take months to enter into force. Yet this is a necessary condition of operating in a system of 17 sovereign democracies. Decisions have to be explained, approval processes have to be followed, compromises have sometimes to be made. These dynamics were witnessed even in the US when Congress sent back the TARP in 2008. The net effect on the euro area, however, is that by the time decisions are eventually implemented the expectations of market have moved on. The impact of those decisions is then discounted.

These market-democracy dialectics provide a second reason why a more integrated economic and financial union is so essential for EMU. The rationale for the original design of EMU – with centralised monetary policy, but decentralised economic policies – was linked to principles of subsidiarity and democratic accountability. This was consistent with the environment that prevailed 20 years ago. But these same principles now imply more Europe, not less.

Subsidiarity is the principle that the centre should perform only those tasks which cannot be performed effectively at the national level. Can we really argue, in the current crisis, that the centre is not the more effective level to exercise, or at least coordinate, certain economic and financial policies? Democratic accountability is the principle that citizens should be able to hold their representatives responsible for decisions. If we need a stronger European centre, then to maintain this principle we also need profound improvements in democracy at the European level.

The justification for rethinking these principles can be found, I believe, by acknowledging that membership of EMU entails a significant degree of political union. We have seen that preventing crises requires that all countries exercise close and effective mutual surveillance of each others’ policies. We have seen that correcting crises requires that decisions are taken jointly, with a euro area perspective. The need for institutionalised collective decision-making is, fundamentally, what defines a political union. And this is de facto the condition of all euro area countries.

Third proposition: ECB independence and the prohibition on monetary financing are essential for euro area integration.

This condition of de facto political union raises questions about the proper role of the central bank in EMU. The ECB is very much in the focus at the moment. Some observers call for it to play the role of a “national” central bank like the Federal Reserve or the Bank of England, and emulate their policies. But these viewpoints are partial. They overlook what is my third proposition: that the Treaty prohibition on monetary financing by the ECB, over the medium term, is a force in favour of euro area integration and greater stability.

The positive effects of the ECB’s policies are fairly obvious in the case of the banking sector. Our standard and non-standard measures ensure price stability in the euro area. While our standard measures signal the monetary policy stance, our non-standard measures ensure the transmission of the desired policy stance to the real economy in those market segments in which the transmission is impaired. Our non-standard measures ensure that despite increased liquidity demand, financial institutions are able to continue lending to clients.

However, misconceptions persist related to the Securities Markets Programme, our programme for intervening in government bond markets. The SMP deliberately addresses the appropriate transmission of our monetary policy to the real economy in market segments which are impaired. Government bonds are crucial for the transmission of monetary policy, via their status as a benchmark for borrowing by banks. Put simply, left unaddressed, the malfunctioning of sovereign bond markets’ could block the bank lending channel. An important difference with Quantitative Easing programmes is that the liquidity injected into the banking system via the SMP is sterilised by the ECB through regular liquidity absorbing operations.

The ECB has been widely recognised as an institution capable of timely, decisive and convincing action during tumultuous times. We see this as a mark of distinction. However, it would be erroneous to derive from this that it should be a political institution in charge of running the euro area economy. It cannot be and should not be. The ECB is a central bank, committed to its mandate to preserve price stability over the medium term. It is not the fiscal lender of last resort to sovereigns. Markets participants that call for the ECB to play this role may care only about the nominal value of their assets and the need to avoid losses. Whether or not the underlying asset – our currency as store of value – has been depreciated seems unimportant to them. But survey after survey shows that the people, the citizens of the euro area, want price stability. They care deeply about their purchasing power and the value of their savings. The ECB has been established with a clear mandate to meet these expectations.

Moreover, what these calls for more activism overlook is the positive effects of the ECB’s stance over the medium term. There are some in the academic world that argue that one way out of the sovereign crisis would be for the central bank to act as a lender of last resort to the sovereign. These voices suggest that euro area countries are more vulnerable to liquidity stresses relative to the situation in economies where the central bank is supposedly prepared to backstop the government bond market.

Certainly the ECB, as the central bank of all EMU countries jointly, cannot act as the central bank of specific countries. But is this in fact a disadvantage for Europe? In a sense, euro area countries have given up sovereignty over their national currency. This implies that maintaining their public debts at reasonable levels requires commensurately more convincing fiscal and economic policies. It also requires that they “tie their hands” in a credible manner through stronger and more automatic economic governance. The monetary financing prohibition, in this way, is a spur towards better policies and better governance – in other words, a closer economic union.

Similarly, the monetary financing prohibition changes the relationship between sovereigns and their national banking systems. As sovereigns cannot monetise debt, they can only backstop large banking sectors at a cost to their own creditworthiness. Insofar as this may undermine the balance sheets of the banks they are trying to save, it could end up triggering a self-defeating vicious circle. This implies that the only viable route to support the euro area’s integrated financial sector is through a more integrated system of supervision and resolution. The monetary financing prohibition, by constraining the resources of individual sovereigns, pushes the euro area in the direction of collective solutions.


Let me now draw to a close.

The key theme that has run through my remarks today is that, from every perspective, much closer economic and financial union is essential for the euro area. We have had this demonstrated in the clearest possible terms by the financial and sovereign debt crises. We have already taken important steps in this direction. Europe is ahead of others in addressing its imbalances. The challenge looking forward is to complete the process towards closer union and not settle for the ‘quick fix’.

The people of Europe want closer cooperation in economic and financial matters. Eurobarometer surveys find cross-country majorities in favour of closer cooperation to end the crisis. And this is ultimately unavoidable, given the state of political union between countries that monetary union de facto creates. It is now a time for politicians to be bold and courageous, to recognise these trends, and to complete as soon as possible the great project begun 60 years ago towards ‘ever closer union’.

Thank you for your attention.


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Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:13 | 1911484 transaccountin
transaccountin's picture

After reading this and the previous post on the eurobonds I feel ill.

Honestly this entire thing is sickening and nowhere near a solution; rather it reminds me of World War I and the stupid schlieffen plan - once you go down the rabbit hole there's no coming back.

We're surely approaching a police union.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:17 | 1911510 sabra1
sabra1's picture

you, you have insulted my avatar!!!!

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:24 | 1911534 sqz
sqz's picture

I think this is a great post and it has a consistent message. Thank you, ZH, for passing it to us in full!

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:23 | 1911645 Michael
Michael's picture

Trickle down tyranny at its finest, because trickle down economics didn't work, or did it?

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 19:44 | 1911800 Kayman
Kayman's picture

I don't believe Germany has any lust for domination over the rest of Europe.  Megalomania didn't succeed in the past and it will not succceed in the future.

Europe has to go back to a Common Market and dump the Common Currency.

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 03:41 | 1912321 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

imo you are right on both counts.  

but to clarify, whoever is seeking dominion over the piigs without bloodshed is too late.  oh, the poster meant without shedding their OWN blood.  i see.

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 08:41 | 1912466 uhb
uhb's picture

Ha... Germany wins World (Financial) War 3.....the third try is lucky ;)

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 09:07 | 1912517 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

Kayman - I believe the European megalomaniac has yet to appear on scene. Let the mice lay the groundwork and the serpent only needs to take up the reins at the right time. Define success and I will tentatively agree to your second point. Your third point is of course correct but Europe is currently controlled by egomaniacs who refuse to admit failure. They would rather submit to the megalomaniac.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:21 | 1911528 economics1996
economics1996's picture

Will the Russians pick a fight or China?

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:51 | 1911591 transaccountin
transaccountin's picture

The ECB should act as the backstop, but limit it only to rolling over debt, NOT for creating new debt. If a country has 5 Billion in Euros of an existing bond coming to maturity, the ECB should act to backstop this 5B only, but not to allow for additional sales to provide for day to day operations of these governments. Those costs need to be bore by the tax payers of the respective countries.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 19:04 | 1911728 Schmuck Raker
Schmuck Raker's picture

A Russian invasion may be a far cry better than what the Europeans are inflicting on themselves these days.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 22:59 | 1912042 disabledvet
Fri, 11/25/2011 - 03:10 | 1912299 Kopfjager
Kopfjager's picture

So it appears ze Fourth Reich finally conquered Europe by fighting like Jews.  Oh the irony.  

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 03:45 | 1912326 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

and the israelis are, too slowly, learning the limitations of the blitzkrieg and the occupation.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:10 | 1911485 Ethics Gradient
Ethics Gradient's picture


That is all.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:14 | 1911491 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

In the good old days it was: "He who pays diner get's laid"...

looks like...



Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:23 | 1911500 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

"We cannot completely delegate governance to financial markets. The euro area is the world’s second largest monetary area. It cannot depend solely on the opinions of ratings agencies and markets. It needs economic governance arrangements that are preventive and linear." 

These Marxist morons are truly delusional

It was "economic governance" that got these fuking retards into the position they're in. It was 'Spend, spend, spend' with debt, debt, debt that paddled them up Shit Creek in the first place

Let's suspend the market, let Govt take over the whole show.. the EC/ECB/EU were always aiming for Soviet Russia anyway, they are to a man Communist cretins anyway

EUSSR here we come

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:47 | 1911580 Transformer
Transformer's picture

You should look up the words-- communist, fascist, capitalism, socialism, democracy, republic.  In fact, study these terms, until you understand what they mean, and can use each in a meaningful paragraph.  I sense that your heart is in the right place, but, once you understand what these words mean, then you will be able to post here without sounding like a moron. 

There are several different ways of organizing the relationship of economics to politics.  I am constantly amazed by the people who seem to know only two, and thus put everything they see into one or the other.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:56 | 1911602 agent default
agent default's picture

You really don't have a fucking clue, do you? 

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:57 | 1911605 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

you're no doubt using the academic descriptions for fascist, communist etc (they all equal parasite BTW)

but do teach me, i don't like to be called a moron on a thread without a fuller explanation


Thu, 11/24/2011 - 22:12 | 1911982 robobbob
robobbob's picture

fascist, socialist, communist

I know what those words mean, and I leave the navel gazing and how many angels on a pin head to the eggheads

the iron fist a slavery is still an iron fist, with, or without, velvet glove, color not withstanding


Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:53 | 1911597 agent default
agent default's picture

It will  be EUSSR.  There is no way the people will put up with this crap for long.  From now on, whenever there is an election in an EU country, eurosceptic parties will gain strength and momentum.  No way these Eurocrats will allow anything like that interfere with their pet project.  They will crack down, violently, ruthlessly, and without even a pretense of an excuse on all fronts.  I for one doubt there will be elections in some EU countries for a long time to come.  Forget about democracy, Europe is now run by a bunch of self righteous, incompetent , who didn't see it coming, when it came they did not know what it was, but now have the solution to whatever it is lunatics,  from East to West and from North to South. It is over in Europe.  Truly over.  I just hope something happens and this scum get their teeth kicked in, literally.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:03 | 1911611 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

we're all going Greek

nothing like some street theatre to keep us warm this winter

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 23:09 | 1912063 Teamtc321
Teamtc321's picture

"It was "economic governance" 

That got the entire globe in this shit storm again. 

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 03:54 | 1912331 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

imo the global shitstorm was the result of poorly regulated and poorly run banks which bought control of government so they could remain poorly regulated and poorly run rather than be bankrupted as a freer market would have made them.  

bad capitalists and bad socialists, working together for the lesser good.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:14 | 1911501 ffart
ffart's picture

EMU to eurozone countries: Let's not turn this rape into a murda'

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:16 | 1911506 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

In this gangbang, you don't wanna stand in front.

Better be at the end of the line....


Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:21 | 1911526 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

or better still in a country that isn't being ruined by Big Govt macro and micro (mis)management

...i'm having trouble thinking of one!

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:26 | 1911538 ffart
ffart's picture

Maybe Uruguay? Their motto is "Liberty or death" of course they're right next to Brazil...

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:31 | 1911549 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

Thanks, you've given me some homework to do now  ;)

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:34 | 1911554 sabra1
sabra1's picture

at least this won't affect canadian real estate!

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:15 | 1911502 sabra1
sabra1's picture

hey! i know, what about a REFERENDUM?

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:17 | 1911508 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

Yeah... I just did one and I decided never to do it again.


Fri, 11/25/2011 - 05:24 | 1912390 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

You included your wife in your referendum? AGAIN?
You know to what this leads...

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:17 | 1911509 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Gee, makes sense to me.

After all, if your country owes a lot to the international banking conglomerate, isn't it proper to surrender your sovereignty and your freedom until you pay off your debt under their terms?

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 03:16 | 1912306 Kopfjager
Kopfjager's picture

This is the price you pay for believing it is your right to retire at the age of 20 with full benefits, regardless of how much debt your nation has to accrue in order to finance that "right." 

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:18 | 1911511 Gubbmint Cheese
Gubbmint Cheese's picture

"You sure have a pretty mouth" (Germany to the rest of the EZ)

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 03:57 | 1912335 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

but with surprisingly painful teeth.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:18 | 1911512 Mike2756
Mike2756's picture

Not going to happen.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:19 | 1911515 gniuz
gniuz's picture

Being forced into giving up sovereignty without solving the EUR problem will eventually lead to war..

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:19 | 1911516 economics1996
Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:23 | 1911520 Pretorian
Pretorian's picture

When you have EU press conference with 3 head of states and no english speaking person can understand it then everything else is just desperate attempt. Bass said "Pope German, Banker Italian.....mama miaa

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 05:28 | 1912393 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I wonder how they can even think like human beings if they don't speak English...

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:21 | 1911521 JR
JR's picture

Demand: “Prepare to give up significant sovereignty.”

Answer: “We’re not going to do it.”

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:29 | 1911547 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

you don't think they'll let people vote on it?

Papadickhed just breathed the words 'democratic vote' in the EU and he was toppled faster than a lightening bolt!

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:37 | 1911561 JR
JR's picture

When the exits begin to close history shows that voting, fortunately, is not the only way. Ghandi did not transform India by voting, or by revolution.

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 03:22 | 1912311 Kopfjager
Kopfjager's picture

As I understand it, there's no way for citizens of EU members to vote on such a thing.  Anyone know who has the power to put such a thing into practice?  

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 04:06 | 1912341 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

some light is cast here on the ecb and its current limitation/possible future choices for change:

imo the twentieth century history of europe makes war less likely and democratic opposition more likely.

especially during economic dislocations, where there is a strong and lasting popular will, sufficiently ambitious politician often find a way.

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 06:05 | 1912405 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Are you serious? There is a thing called Parliament,
It makes other things called laws.
What about the political party you vote for? Did you ever vote?

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 07:38 | 1912435 Trying to Understand
Trying to Understand's picture

Are you 'serious'??? Any Member of the EU, whether governed by a Parliament or other body is only allowed to make the laws it is told to make by the UN... via the EU, whose sole STATED PURPOSE is to implement UN Treaty Laws, bit by bit, piece by piece. Anything outside of that mandate is forbidden and will be penalized in one form or another.

and yes, it is here in the good ol' USA too:

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:42 | 1911573 css1971
css1971's picture



Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:21 | 1911524 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

It can't be long before the people with the boots figure out that there's nothing left that can prevent them from stomping.

The days of propaganda and lies will be the good old days.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:21 | 1911527 Snakeeyes
Snakeeyes's picture

Its happening in the U.S. too. The Fed can't even be honest about a true bank stress test (for capital) and the stress test does NOT apply to Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac or the FHA. Is the Fed afraid of what they might find?

The Fed's stress test contains no interest rate movement, just mortgage rates rising to 5% for 2012. They do have home price declines of 20% and 0% GDP growth for 2012, but no interest rate shocks? What kind of a stress test is this??

Upcoming Case-Shiller Report and The Fed Reserve Comprehensive Capital Analysis and Review

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:22 | 1911529 lizzy36
lizzy36's picture

Arbeit macht frei.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:23 | 1911531 chaartist
chaartist's picture

headshot, nothing more nothing less

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:23 | 1911532 alfa
alfa's picture

germany comes back without weapons...

the german murders in greece ---rare video


Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:23 | 1911533 walküre
walküre's picture

In other words, courtesy of one failed monetary experiment Germany will succeed, without sheeding one drop of blood, where it failed rather historically some 70 years ago.


Complete and utter bullshit. Germany's hand was forced - again. This would be the 3rd time in history!

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:26 | 1911540 Peter K
Peter K's picture

Why not? I'll buy that.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:40 | 1911569 JR
JR's picture

"You must understand that this war is not against Hitler or National Socialism, but against the strength of the German people, which is to be smashed once and for all, regardless whether it is in the hands of Hitler or a Jesuit priest." (Emrys Hughes, Winston Churchill, His Career in War and Peace p. 145)

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:52 | 1911595 walküre
walküre's picture

If Americans as well as Canadians and Australians only realized that their alleged sovereignty is still at the very mercy of her Royal Highness, the Queen of Debt Turd Mountain in the Queer Kingdom of Anglomania, they would freak out!

Nothing gets done geo-politically or strategically without the consent of the House of Windsors. They in turn seek financing from the House of the Rothschilds and those two will never go broke or get busted unless the stupid peons wake up and shoot the whole lot!

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:24 | 1911535 prains
prains's picture

it's times like these that what the world really needs is a good old fashioned proxy war, whereby the proxy aggressors can appear to be in direct conflict with one another ideaologocally, while quietly working out the land/oil grab in an equitable manner in the aftermath, oh and rid the world of a nuclear wingnut achmaphlegmajob.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:25 | 1911536 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

We need a commercial on television which shows us the advantages of all this!

MAKE US BELIEVE! this crap....


Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:25 | 1911537 Richard Whitney
Richard Whitney's picture

Nations that surrender 'significant sovereignity' should also surrender their seats at international bodies, starting with the U. N. This should be included in any discussion of greater european union integration. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Greece either exists as an independent nation and represents Greece in international affairs, or it is subsumed into a fiscal and monetary union and is part of some fiscal federation which has one vote at the U.N.


Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:50 | 1911588 IQ 101
IQ 101's picture

That is brilliant Mr Whitney, It also seems reasonable that nations with unelected prime ministers should lose any standing amongst Democratic organisations at the international level until elections take place?

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 19:00 | 1911718 Socratic Dog
Socratic Dog's picture

Prime ministers, as I understand it, are always unelected, in the sense of popular vote.  They are appointed from the ranks of elected parliamentarians, by the parliamentarians.

The US president also is not elected by popular vote.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 20:03 | 1911833 JR
JR's picture

The US presidential system is hardly comparable to a parliamentary system by which the voters elect parties that form coalitions and whichever party controls the coalition then appoints the prime minister. In the US, voters vote not for the party but the president who will then be elected by electors. There is no comparison.

The parliamentary system has the feel of the smoke filled back rooms. A coalition is highly susceptible to bribery by lobbyists such as the banking cartel for its selection of the prime minister and, subsequently, the cabinet officials. All you’ve got to do in the parliament is to gather the votes to pick the prime minister. In Italy, for example, the Communists can have an influence on the coalition and, thus, the selection of the prime minister. 

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 06:10 | 1912407 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

You did not mention that one third of Italians are post-communists.
And they are holding the Presidency.
Not likely with a first-around-the-post-system...

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:01 | 1911610 walküre
walküre's picture

Close the UN down alltogether. It is a farce. A piece of the puzzle in Anglomania and global domination. Conceived by the rotten descendants of the English pirates that conquered some of the world, but try to plunder all of it. England's wealth built upon the loot of pirates that stole their way into "lordship" some 300 years ago. The wealth of her Royal Highness is nothing but looted treasure from around the world. The English are pirates, always have been and always will be.

Whey they got seasick, they opened up shops on Wall Street.

If one could turn back time and travel back, one should equip the Scots with the means and tools necessary to rid the world of the English cancer.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 21:13 | 1911650 XitSam
XitSam's picture

I agree, but it won't happen. Precedent. The USSR told Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia how to vote during the cold war.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:27 | 1911543 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

Obviously, I concentrate explicitly on the euro area, i.e. the seventeen countries sharing the single currency. The status and role of the United Kingdom, the dynamics of the British domestic debate on Europe, and the cooperation with the Continent in addressing the crisis are not the focus of my remarks.

These fuckers are getting desparate.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:11 | 1911622 A Man without Q...
A Man without Qualities's picture

There are so many parallels with what happened back in 1992 when Britain left the ERM.  The UK had attempted to fix the Sterling DEM exchange rate, which mean that the UK was locked into a monetary cycle with interest rates that were fine for Germany but not the UK.  The exchange rate was obviously too high and speculators heavily shorted the Pound.  The Chancellor got a lot wrong, but the most important fact is the UK government and BoE pleaded with the Bundesbank to cut rates in order to weaken DEM, but the BuBa insisted it would not be good for price stability in Germany.  

The UK had no option, so left the ERM and there was never any chance of UK joining the Euro because it was clear that monetary policy would be heavily dictated out of Frankfurt and the rest of Europe was supposed to toe the German line.

The problem for the Eurozone is this is far more serious this time - sovereign currencies no longer exist and all the Eurozone banking system, including Germany is undercapitalized and not able to withstand severe debt deflation.  In 1992 it may be argued that both UK and Germany were right, but the German-led strategy for the current mess is fataly flawed, even though there are logical reasons.

If Germany doesn't wise up quickly, it's going to be a long cold economic winter.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:31 | 1911655 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

If Germany doesn't wise up quickly, it's going to be a long cold economic winter.

I suspect it will begin before Christmas and yes it will be long, cold and brutal.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:28 | 1911544 plantigrade
plantigrade's picture


"The people of Europe want closer cooperation in economic and financial matters. Eurobarometer surveys find ..."

What about "votes" ?

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 03:03 | 1912293 i-dog
i-dog's picture


"What about "votes"?"

Barbarous relic! Only tradition! You can't eat votes! Votes don't pay interest! Votes cost money!!!

The sampling and seasonal adjustment and hedonic equalisation methods of the Eurobarometer are beyond reproach! Trust me!

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:37 | 1911563 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

"..complete the process towards closer union and not settle for the quick fix."

Is it 14 meetings in 21 months and not a single agreement to date? ..hardly going for a "quick fix", it looks more like a Windbag Marathon

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:41 | 1911570 devo
devo's picture

I wouldn't say rating agencies now tell the truth...

They're more truthful, but still generious with their ratings.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:14 | 1911627 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

A man fond of chemical weapons then.

Should we call him Chemical Winston?

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 09:57 | 1912651 spanish inquisition
spanish inquisition's picture

"Germany´s unforgivable crime before WW2 was its attempt to loosen its economy out of the world trade system and to build up an own exchange system from which the world-finance couldn´t profit anymore. ...We butchered the wrong pig." - Winston Churchill, The second World War (Bern, 1960)

That quote pretty much applies most wars in the last 100+ years. It's about making the world safe for privately owned central banks. Just have to learn how to package it correctly to get everyone wrapped in a flag and frothing at the mouth.


Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:17 | 1911632 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

"The enemy is the German Reich and not Nazism, and those who still haven´t understood this, haven´t understood anything." - Churchill´s chief counselor Robert Lord Vansittart (September 1940 to foreign minister Lord Halifax)

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:21 | 1911639 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

"Hitler and the German people didn´t want this war. We didn´t answer Hitler´s various petitions for peace. Now we have to admit that he was right. Instead of a cooperation with Germany, which he had offered us, now stands the gigantic, imperialistic might of the Sovjets. I feel ashamed to see how the same intentions which we accused Hitler of now are pursued under a different name." - Sir Hartley Shawcross, British chief-accuser in Nuremberg

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:47 | 1911579 loveyajimbo
loveyajimbo's picture

Seig!!  The fourth reich... maybe they will handle the "Mulsim Problem"... in europe...  Those germans... they just love to dominate, even try to regulate their own instincts... but THAT never works, does it.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:48 | 1911691 molecool
molecool's picture


Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:47 | 1911581 DutchR
DutchR's picture

Anybody made a list of the fuckers that got us into this mess?





*paging Keyser Soze

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:47 | 1911582 evolutionx
evolutionx's picture

European Central Bank commits suicide

Michael Mross on Russia Today: "Our central bank is committing suicide. On the one hand they are helping banks with billions and billions. They are buying junk bonds, billions and billions. I mean, where does this lead to? It is one of the last nails in the coffin of our central bank."

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:47 | 1911583 Tuffmug
Tuffmug's picture

This Jose guy is delusional. He must snort some powerful dope to believe that 27 parliments full of sociopathic greedy politicians are going to give up control of their personal candy stores.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:42 | 1911679 XitSam
XitSam's picture

That's exactly what they will do because they are greedy.  The ones who accept willingly will get to keep their inflation adjusted wage and expense accounts that will allow them to collect wealth and capital in the coming depression.  The reluctant ones will be scared with tales of deflation, civil unrest, anarchy, riots, starving people, to take the easy path and go along with the plan.  

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:50 | 1911589 Tic tock
Tic tock's picture

survey after suvey show that politicians and bankers want to live in a place called the Land of Unicorns and Rainbows

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:51 | 1911593 Silver Pullet
Silver Pullet's picture

I used to play a game called Civilization. You could make ever more powerful weapons to defeat your neighbours. But they also had this thing called a Diplomat and you could send him to 'enemy' cities and basically buy the city. It was a much cleaner way of taking over the world than all of those messy weapons.

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 03:10 | 1912300 i-dog
i-dog's picture

Diplomat = front man for the team of Economic Hit Men (CIA/MI6/KGB)

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:51 | 1911594 wawazat
wawazat's picture

Tyler--just want tip give thanks to you for bringing the the truth out in the light for all to see.
God bless you!

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:31 | 1911657 molecool
molecool's picture

Your God won't help you out of this mess, sir.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:53 | 1911598 Eireann go Brach
Eireann go Brach's picture

José Manuel González-Páramo...he should be mowing fucking lawns as opposed to trying to solve the worlds banking crisis!

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:54 | 1911599 css1971
css1971's picture

"The people of Europe want closer cooperation in economic and financial matters"

Arrogant fuck. He (an unelected banker) didn't ask me, and last time I looked I was one of the people. Every time the people of europe are given a referendum, they tell these vampires to fuck off.

We need some swinging from lamp posts.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:48 | 1911687 molecool
molecool's picture

'The people of Europe' - right. I speak three languages and all I see in pertinent forums across Europe are outcries against this sort of thing. They have been playing the game when it comes to multiculturism and integration. Remember Goebbels - if you keep repeating a lie over and over again it will in the end be accepted as the truth. 

Those cats have been playing this game for a long time now and slowly the grey unwashed masses are waking up to that elephant of a lie. Mind you that if you as a German speak out against the Eurocrats then you are being labeled as an extremist in your own country. Of course if you move outside Germany you are being labeled a Nazi.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:03 | 1911612 Piranhanoia
Piranhanoia's picture

The non elected seem to be leaning, if not falling, or accidentally jumping  ever closer to national socialism. 

They appear to like the response it got in Greece.

another cunning plan must on.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:06 | 1911619 Gringo Viejo
Gringo Viejo's picture

Fourth Reich Uber Alles.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:31 | 1911656 molecool
molecool's picture

You sir, are a fucking idiot. Have you ever even been to Germany? Probably not - but it's so chic to bash the Germans, isn't it?

I think that the U.S. resembles Nazi Germany a lot more than Germany today. Have you been passing through a TSA check point lately? Papiere bitte!

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 20:06 | 1911840 Teamtc321
Teamtc321's picture

You sir, are a fucking idiot. The U.S. should just let that shit hole over the pond implode and then let the radical's saw your fucking head's off. 

If you cock sucker's would stop mouthing and go find the elite you say live in your back yard................Never happen, keep begging for money and oh please help us if we are attacked. 

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 20:12 | 1911847 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

keep begging for money

What "money"?

The shit you create out of thin air as "Reserve Currency"?

That "money"?


Thu, 11/24/2011 - 20:33 | 1911874 Teamtc321
Teamtc321's picture

Ya that money, the shit all cattle rancher's in Texas printed. Point was the B.S. issue's compared to a TSA screening.  

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 07:06 | 1912360 Gringo Viejo
Gringo Viejo's picture


Fri, 11/25/2011 - 07:02 | 1912422 Gringo Viejo
Gringo Viejo's picture

i may well be a fucking idiot son. But I'm old and well know a bullshit artist one brick short of a load when I hear him. Sounds the same in 3 languages..."sir". How's life in the closet?

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:07 | 1911620 Racer
Racer's picture

And another ex Squiddy who has invaded the various countries top power levels said today:

"BoE's Broadbent says UK inflation expectations are stable"


HUH! not for the things I buy... like food and energy and insurance they aren't ... more like hyperinflation in those things

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:15 | 1911624 MFL8240
MFL8240's picture

Each country should declare bankruptcy and return to its prior currency.  Therefore, the problem is solved leaving Germany and France with the debt and financial problems.  Giving up your sovereign rights to Germany is insane.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:21 | 1911630 Franken_Stein
Franken_Stein's picture

I read for the first time here on Zerohedge what I didn't even know myself about myself, which is, that I as a German want to rule Europe.

That's new to me.


I was neither asked in any referendum whether I wanted the Euro or not, nor was I ever given the chance to vote on the Maastricht treaty, the Lisbon treaty, the Treaty of Rome or any other treaty.


Yet I have to read that as a German I am the one to take all the blame for the mess, although the only change the introduction of the Euro brought me was a rise in price of all goods.


Why do you not more honestly and precisely say that The German Government is doing this and that, not The German People ?

The government, i.e. Merkel, Schäuble and Co. are acting against the clear will of the German people in all of this !


We, the people, did NOT authorize this !

They never asked us for our consent !


This is a coup by the bankers against the free people of Europe, INCLUDING Germans.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:28 | 1911652 molecool
molecool's picture

Ganz genau.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:38 | 1911667 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

I was neither asked in any referendum whether I wanted the Euro or not, nor was I ever given the chance to vote on the Maastricht treaty, the Lisbon treaty, the Treaty of Rome or any other treaty.

What did the German People do about that when the German Government just went right on ahead without asking the German People?




Thu, 11/24/2011 - 19:00 | 1911717 molecool
molecool's picture

What did the Brits do? What did the Americans do? Germans (as well as citizens of other Western nations) may be to blame for being complacent, lazy, uninvolved, fat & happy - I give you that. But making allusions to Germany wanting to rule Europe is outright ridiculous. We just had a little 'Anschluss' as Tyler called it - we absorbed the DDR (GDR) and it was a huge pain in the ass - expensive and not very rewarding. So you really think we want to start marching through Paris, Madrid, or Athens? Pa-leeze!

What we Germans want are jobs,, children, happiness, and a functioning stabil enconomy. You know - all those stereotypes you like to use in your commercials - we enjoy making our cars, precision machines, beer, sausages, and have fun at the Octoberfest in September. There is some truth to all that but in essence we just want to live our lives just like you.

Anything else is pure hyperbole and should be treated as such. Don't let your own paranoia get the better of you - clear and rational minds should prevail as most of the pundits making Nazi references live in countries that economically border the abyss. So please keep your energy for cleaning up your messes instead of lashing out at Germany, which is one of the most peaceful nations in Europe.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 19:23 | 1911770 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

But making allusions to Germany wanting to rule Europe is outright ridiculous

I think you will find that I did not.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 19:24 | 1911772 FlimFlam
FlimFlam's picture

Fantastic, molecool.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 20:10 | 1911845 Teamtc321
Teamtc321's picture

What should they have done? 

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 20:14 | 1911850 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

Demanding a referendum would have been a start.

Not to late you know.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 20:38 | 1911878 Teamtc321
Teamtc321's picture

Good point, thank you. 

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 19:04 | 1911727 The Reich
The Reich's picture

So ist es!

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 19:05 | 1911729 walküre
walküre's picture

mal langsam.. slow down!

I think that Frau Merkel was tricked and her hands are being forced. She is a pawn and she is played just as the rest.

We need Willy Brandt or Helmut Schmidt to speak TACHELES with the bankers!

Names! I want names! Call out Goldman Sachs. Call out JP Morgan! Call out the whole lot and tell the German people how the banking cabal has manipulated and corrupted the entire financial system!

Deutsche Bank, Commerzbank, West LB and so on were hijacked long ago by these Wall Street vermin! They are no longer DEUTSCH and they no longer represent German interests!

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:31 | 1911631 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

Centralize.  Centralize.  Centralize.  Always the mantra of people with "proposed" solutions.  The European Community has run afoul of a fact of nature:


"Any system that becomes sufficiently complex will develop parasites."

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:27 | 1911640 molecool
molecool's picture

As usual, you are so full of shit, Tyler. The Germans don't want any more territory, so don't call it 'Anschluss'. By the way, after 66 years + those Nazi references are getting really old and it is yet another way of pigeonholing Germans as rabid extremists or Nazies - have you ever actually BEEN to modern Germany? Clearly not - and changing planes in Frankfurt doesn't count, my friend.

Quite on the contrary - Germans are extremely worried about losing their own sovereignty to Brussels' Eurocrats and there is much talk of leaving the EMU altogether. Always remember, similarly to here in the U.S. whatever the idiots at the top are cooking up out of sheer desperation (or blatant corruption) does not reflect the opinion of the average German voter.

I am making this point because in my entire life I have not found one discussion involving Germany that does at some point not degrade to calling German Nazis. Right, they are just about to make a b-line through Poland after having dismantled their military by almost 80% in the past 20 years.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:39 | 1911670 Franken_Stein
Franken_Stein's picture

Couldn't have said it better.

Our government is remote-controlled.

The Bilderberg Group is there for a reason.


I took a look into the "2+4 treaty", the treaty that regulated German reunification.


In it it states, that Germany, even after reunification, will still be no sovereign nation, and it will still be under Allied occupational rule, namely that certain articles from the so-called Übergangsgesetz (transitional law), the law that regulated the transition period 1945-1949 under allied command, will STILL be valid, even in cases where they contradict official German law !!!


Wolfgang Schäuble recently was candid enough to openly state that:

"Und wir in Deutschland sind seit dem 8. Mai 1945 zu keinem Zeitpunkt mehr voll souverän gewesen."


And let's not forget.

Never has a peace treaty between Germany and the Allies been signed.

Never was a new constitution for Germany approved by the German people.

The Grundgesetz was an allied dictat.

The last constitution to which there was a referendum in Germany was that of 1919, that of the Weimar Republic.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 19:06 | 1911733 molecool
molecool's picture

Yes, but after just completing WW1 and WW2 reparations (for West and what was once East Germany) we now get to pay to bail out the lot of Europe.

Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass if they call us Nazis or whatever - in the end we Germans need to decide what's good for Germany first and Europe second. Americans, Brits, and French have that luxury last time I checked.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 19:30 | 1911783 walküre
walküre's picture

Those reparations were unjust for starters. We should have never agreed to pay anything.

Our enemies in WW1 took on too much debt in order to fund their war efforts. The bankster were at the table in Versailles and made sure their interests were covered then.

I don't know what's best? Maybe we should just shut up, mind our business and let the rest of the world mind their own business. They will still enjoy and buy all things made in Germany, because it's simply good stuff. As for muddling with their purses, I'd say we let them be.

Of course the Euro will not stand when we do mind our own business.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 20:04 | 1911834 lotsoffun
lotsoffun's picture

please.  walk away.

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 02:43 | 1912277 Peter K
Peter K's picture

Walking away doen't solve the problem.

As far as the Nazi's are concerned, you got to wonder how much more traction is being gotten out of using that worn out and tired pejorative cliche? It is pretty obvious that this name calling exercize is becoming counter productive. From one of the above posts, it looks like it's losing it's moral impact. And maybe that's a good thing.

If this process leads to the destruction of this label as a discussion stopping exercize, then I am all for it.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 19:08 | 1911738 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

The last constitution to which there was a referendum in Germany was that of 1919, that of the Weimar Republic.

Maybe it's time that the German People got themselves a new one then.


Your going to let your "Government" ride you from here to eternity?


Thu, 11/24/2011 - 19:14 | 1911750 molecool
molecool's picture

Do you know how many American troops are still stationed in Germany alone? Don't think for a second the Germans have free reign politically since 1945. 


Anyway, this is all academic. We are debating the Germans when we should be talking about the financial elite that is turning ALL of Europe into a facist construct from hell.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 20:15 | 1911854 Lord Welligton
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Do you know how many American troops are still stationed in Germany alone?

Tell them to go home.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 20:18 | 1911858 Teamtc321
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Sound's spot on, I bet you could add ever other country to the list of people who don't want what is forced upon them either. 

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 07:25 | 1912431 letitgo
letitgo's picture

You're spot on, molecool. This blog has so much pro-US anti-Europe bias over the last few weeks that it's often starting to look like the rantings of an immature teen who's never seen much of the world he lives in.  I'd like to see a blog entry noting the amount of the substantially larger US debt attributable to fighting wars.  That might give us a more accurate indication of who is really being imperialist over recent times than some throw away line to 70 years ago.

I feel sorry for you, molecool, having a cosmopolitan view of the world and having to live in the US. I can list about 5 countries where I've lived where you won't have to put up with such comments and your economic prospects are probably brighter.  You should perhaps think about going to one of them.  At least for (non-European, non-US) me it's only on this board that I see this kind of stuff -- I come to have a laugh at all the Americans saying everyone else is screwed while watching their dysfunctional political situation and half of their middle class line up for food stamps.


Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:36 | 1911663 DaBernank
DaBernank's picture

It's pretty easy for the rest of Europe to give Germany the finger at this point.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:39 | 1911671 rambler6421
rambler6421's picture

Greg Palast went on Alex JOnes and talked about the loss of sovereignty. These guys should just default. Throw the banksters out!

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 02:30 | 1912269 Peter K
Peter K's picture

Did it ever occur to you that the "banksters" might actually be the victims here?

It was 12 short years ago that the Banksters were told to buy Eurobonds because the Germans would guarentee the lot. (Implicit guarentee just like the US GSE's.) So they bought at rates that were far to low, because the Europoliticos strong armed them.

Or put it another way. If the Italian rates never converged (who still remembers the convergence trade?), they would have never gone below 8%. And Italy would not have a problem right now.

And yes, the Banksters would still get their bonuses. Buthten again, the Banksters always get their bonuses:)

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 03:38 | 1912316 i-dog
i-dog's picture


"that the "banksters" might actually be the victims here?"

LOL. You'd need to show that the banksters were independent of the politicians in the forums where these things are actually decided. In particular, those secret forums, behind closed doors, such as Bilderberg and Trilateral Commission - where the predominant attendance is of banksters, premiers and finance ministers.

What is published in press releases is rarely the story of what was happening behind the scenes - where the banksters largely "own" the politicians.

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 05:01 | 1912374 Peter K
Peter K's picture

Actually I've drilled down that deep, and you are correct. We live in a world where a cabal of "smartest men" think they can control events to their own best interest.

But I am more interested in the process itself. Case in point:

Assumption: The Affordable Housing Act created the situation where lenders were forced to make real estate loans to people who couldn't afford to pay them back. And this was the root cause of the current housing crisis in the US.

My question is how did this Law come into existance, i.e. two scenarios:

1) Politicians wanted to create a better environment to get themselves elected, and strong armed the bankers into issuing these loans?


2) Banksters came to the Politicians to create an environment where they could issue more loans, so they could make bigger bonuses, and strong armed the politicians into enacting this really bad law?

My personal take is that scenario 1) is the correct scenario. I think that most rational people would agree.

And if this is the case, than in this example, the bankster is not the root cause of the problem, but at best and enabler to the politician.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:47 | 1911675 Bansters-in-my-...
Bansters-in-my- feces's picture

Fuck You ....Piece of shit Bankster.!!!

That about covers it.

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 02:25 | 1912261 Peter K
Peter K's picture

Somehow, I think you still have a lot more to say. Get it all out. It will do you some good:)

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:52 | 1911698 chump666
chump666's picture

Right, quoting from a paranoid delusive ECB board member.  That makes so much sense.  Bets on ZH, that Germany leaves the EU or three of the PIIGS leave such as Greece, Italy and Portugal, with Spain and Ireland hanging by a c-hair.

Germany will turn it's back on irrelevant countries which is 100% Greece and others.  No weird  conspiracy theories here, just and overall concern that oil goes to 100+ on EUR hedge selling Germany faces stagflation via a China crunch...

The EU will be dead in less than 3mths.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:58 | 1911712 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture


I am astounded that someone of such obvious stupidity should have ever been allowed be a member of the ECB.

But then maybe I'm not.


This dickhead is trying to promote risk free stupidity.

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 04:18 | 1912327 i-dog
i-dog's picture


"No weird  conspiracy theories here"

Well, betting on a conspiracy theory, I predict that there is no way that Portugal, Italy, Ireland, France, Belgium or Spain will leave the Euro ... at least not until after it has crashed irretrievably due to one or more of the northern states leaving.

IMO, Greece was the IED (improvised economic device), planted by the Squid, to eventually force Germany to give up its gold to the banksters (in addition to turning all Germans into debt slaves). The FU.PIIGS will all keep squealing until Germany either relents or leaves. And, if Germany leaves, they'll still find a way to call her a Nazi!

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:54 | 1911702 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

A classic example of this divergence has been the debate over private sector involvement. For a domestic audience, banks should internalise the consequences of their lending decisions and should be punished for their past behaviour. But from a financial market perspective, such communication is disastrous. It signals to investors that assets that were previously risk-free are no longer so, that the euro area is a market where their investments are not guaranteed. And as markets are forward-looking, they sell their assets today. This immediately undermines the progress I have just described.

Is this Spanish fuck completely insane?

that the euro area is a market where their investments are not guaranteed

Yes. He is completely fucking insane.

A gobshite Neo-Keynesian who thinks that "Europe" can provide a paradise of risk free investment.


Thu, 11/24/2011 - 19:45 | 1911802 chump666
chump666's picture

I agree.  It's old Europe again, acting like...well old Europe.  Spain?  Jeez a terrible track record of governance from Nationalist loons to socialist maniacs. Now the ECB doing the same via this Spanish butnut reiterating the same mantra.  Bizarre.  Germany has every right, and it will, say f*ck you to the EU and the ECB (it has already).  It will also recommend that Spain, Italy and Ireland's leaders/officials should all see top quality psychiatrists to handle that paranoia...

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 20:00 | 1911829 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

leaders/officials should all see top quality psychiatrists to handle that paranoia...

I wouldn't restrict that to Ireland or Spain.

Every Nation in Europe has been taken over by this Communist Scum.

They worked at it for a long time.

They infiltrated.

They are our leaders.

They are scum.

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 02:23 | 1912259 Peter K
Peter K's picture

Yes Me Lord, but they are our scum:)

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 20:48 | 1911888 Teamtc321
Teamtc321's picture

"that the euro area is a market where their investments are not guaranteed"   

What do you get when you put a shovel in a banker's hand? Nothing........


What do you get when you put a shovel in a ditch digger's hand's? A Banker whacked in his fucking head. 



Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:55 | 1911705 de Cosmos
de Cosmos's picture

CATS: All your base are belong to us.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 18:58 | 1911714's picture

el asno con oro lo alcanza todo ... everyone follows the ass with gold

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 19:07 | 1911735 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

to which everyone globally should say in unison over my dead body.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 20:25 | 1911866 Teamtc321
Teamtc321's picture

Whoa whoa wait, I thought the USA is just warmonger's? I think the U.S. should just step aside and let the nat gas be shut down by the soviet's. Let them demand payment in gold also. 

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 19:12 | 1911745 Franken_Stein
Franken_Stein's picture


A very furious Gerald Celente going ballistic on Alex Jones' show:!

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