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Bill Gross Tells The Truth: "S&P Finally Got It Right. They Are Enforcing Some Discipline. My Hat Is Off To Them"

Tyler Durden's picture


After all the hollow rhetoric and scapegoating over the past few days about S&Ps "treasonous act" from Friday, we were delighted to finally hear one person say the truth. "I have been criticizing them and Moody's and Fitch for a long time. Moody's and Fitch are on the "S" list. I think S&P finally demonstrated some spin. S&P finally got it right. They spoke to a dysfunctional political system and deficits as far as the eye can see. They are enforcing some discipline. My hat is off to them." The person in question: PIMCO's Bill Gross, who says what everyone is thinking but afraid to say it for fear it would insult our oh so sensitive, and so incompetent, administration. Because if criticizing S&P over being far too late to the subprime party is justified, at least they have the guts (unlike those tapeworms from Moody's) to finally step against the tide of conventional sycophantic wisdom and tell everyone even a modest part of the whole truth. If that is not the first step toward penitence, then nothing is. And yes, America's real credit rating at the current level of deficit accumulation most certainly does not begin with the letter A, or B or even C for that matter. Because what America is doing is heading straight for default, however not by officially filing in the Southern District of New York, but by terminally hobbling its own currency in hopes of stimulating rampant inflation thereby cutting its debt load through devaluation. A sad side effect of that of course is the wipe out of its own middle class as well. But all is fair in love and preserving the wealth of the status quo. 

Gross transcript:

Gross on the ECB bond purchasing program:
"What Trichet has spoken to tonight and on Friday was that they would implement a significant bond purchase program for Spain and Italy...We're expecting $2 billion to $3 billion a day in terms of ECB bond purchase.  How many days and weeks that continues, I am not sure. They might eventually have an actual interest rate target in mind. We are not sure of that either and they probably won't divulge it."
On the response in Asia and Europe to the U.S. debt downgrade:
"I think overall the most important impact will be from a currency standpoint. We're not seeing that tremendously tonight in terms of the dollar, but when you put the pieces together, the ECB action in terms of supporting euro land, when you look forward to the next few days in terms of the Fed and what they might do to ease interest rates to a certain extent, those in combination - in addition to S&P's downgrade that speaks to the longer-term vulnerability of the United States - Put all that in a package and it's the dollar more than anything that is vulnerable on the downside."
On the super committee concept to tackle the deficit:
"I think the committee concept is a kick-the-can type of action. What we saw over the past week in terms of the resolution of the debt crisis, perhaps a $25 billion reduction over the next 12 months in terms of the deficit and perhaps over the next several years of $500 billion to $1 trillion. Not much."
"We have talked about the total liabilities of the United States being $12 trillion in terms of actually printed treasuries, and as much as $60 trillion in terms of people walking, 'debt men' walking. That's Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid all in combination.  So this country has an enormous problem. It is not just $25 billion. It is not a $1-$2 trillion problem."
On when the Chinese, as the largest buyers of U.S. debt, will have enough:
"[The Chinese] will not show up when it does not serve their best interests. They're beginning to sense, and I'm sure they've sense for a number of years, that the U.S. has a number of weapons to use against them in terms of their purchasing of treasuries. That would be low interest rates relative to the rate of inflation -- in other words, financial repression.
"To the extent the U.S. continues to employ that, it becomes an increasing cost for the Chinese. Their number one priority has been to put their people to work. In effect, the whole world is trying to put their people to work, but the Chinese especially. So what they have done is to fix their currency on a relative basis to the dollar, to buy U.S. treasuries and doing so to put their people to work. When those treasuries yield them nothing and become vulnerable from the standpoint of the dollar currency-wise, then that there might be something in the works. That is the most significant rebalancing effort. The ECB can buy bonds. The U.S. can do another QE 2.5. IF and when the Chinese basically revalue their currency significantly, that is a rebalancing effort that might ultimately put a foundation under the global economy."
On whether other countries will be downgraded after the U.S.:
"To the extent that France or some of the inner core of Euroland become vulnerable with their AAA, then it becomes a successive waterfall on the way down…To the extent that the U.S. and other liquid AAA countries such as Japan, France, Germany, Canada, Australia, to the extent that some of those are vulnerable, then there's little room to maneuver.""The U.S. at AA+, does it make a difference? Perhaps 10-15 to 25 basis points immediately." 
Gross on whether he blames S&P:
"I have been criticizing them and Moody's and Fitch for a long time. Moody's and Fitch are on the "S" list. I think S&P finally demonstrated some spin. S&P finally got it right. They spoke to a dysfunctional political system and deficits as far as the eye can see. They are enforcing some discipline. My hat is off to them. "


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Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:01 | 1535819 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

Meanwhile, London is on fire, literally. 

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:17 | 1535882 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

Spain just raided moody's and S&P offices... yeah shit got real, real fast

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:22 | 1535904 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

I didn't hear about Spain, but I know authorities raided S&P offices in Italy.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:24 | 1535913 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

my bad...  got back from long weekend and reading things crooked

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:32 | 1535933 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Wait 'till Italy get's upgraded to AAAA+ infinitas, then you'll start reading things crooked.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:39 | 1535963 phyuckyiu
phyuckyiu's picture

Gold is going up a dollar a minute at the moment. Didn't bob tell us not to buy gold?

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:44 | 1535973 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

I thought gold would sell-off several months ago, I've been bearish on silver because silver isn't like gold and I've said that several times. 

S&P downgrading the US was a game changer. That changes things in too many ways to even discuss. 

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:55 | 1535988 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture


1710.40 1711.40 Low/High 1697.20 1716.50 Change +47.00




Watch the CRAPEX open in the morn, the PAPER Commi's may have a trick up their sleeve...

Or Not ...

SILVER is confirming the rally so far.

$42. and we gonna have a big move in GOLD Imo.


AFTER ALL, Bonds are Paper, No???

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 02:01 | 1536018 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture


Pea Pel Ditching their BONDS (i.e. o/s Debt).


So what do you do with the Electronic Harddrive Cash???


Stocks - Nyet.

Cash  - Nyet.


Whats left is commods, Metals, Oils, and of course the other currency, Gold/Silver...

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 06:17 | 1536232 spiral_eyes
Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:49 | 1535992 phyuckyiu
phyuckyiu's picture

Awww cmon bob, you didn't need the s+p to tell you the truth of what was really going on and you know it.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 02:02 | 1536006 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

I know the US isn't AAA but that is regardless. 

The downgrade will mean a major shaking of every asset class as fund managers will have to sell assets to keep up with their mandate. I use "assets" loosely because there will now most likely be an avalanche type of effect. Obviously there will need to be CB intervention which will mean massive printing of money which will push people into gold. Silver will to some extent enjoy the coattails of gold but silver is very much an industiral type metal (it's trading at the same levels from back in early April)

What's queer to me is that platinum (which is far more precious in-terms of rareness) is practically unaffected....up only $2 on October futures at the moment, while gold is popping by $63.


Mon, 08/08/2011 - 02:13 | 1536039 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture


Platinum is about 20X rarer than Gold, but its considered more an industrial metal hence the drag.

Cars sales could be drastically hit.


GOLD is much nicer to work with in jewelry, much better color also.

Plat is very hard to work with, and its Grey as are all other metals except............ Gold and Copper...

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 07:17 | 1536303 dellbalboa
dellbalboa's picture

No, it wasnt S&P they raided, it was Moody's, but who cares right? its the two heads from the same snake.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:02 | 1535822 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

BAC is getting it right too...

Bank of America : S&P may downgrade US again in November

"We do expect further downgrades," said Ethan Harris, North American economist, on the call. "We doubt the newly appointed bipartisan commission will come up with a credible long-term deficit reduction plan. Hence by November or December we would not be surprised to see S&P downgrade the debt again from AA-plus to AA."

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:06 | 1535823 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

 Japan aint AAA Billy. Nice to hear he almost has that rag out of his throte.


Physical premiums are negative on gold.

Futures price is higher then physical.



Mon, 08/08/2011 - 03:46 | 1536143 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

Bill Gross is just lashing out because he has been losing much money shorting treasuries lately.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 08:24 | 1536417 trav7777
trav7777's picture

Gross has his fuckyou money in an old money portfolio full of dividends.  But he's got to get yield for all his customers to keep the funds rolling in.

That's all he wants; he wants his jew vig.  400 years of ponzi have convinced people that by virtue of having some "capital," that they are entitled to yield as if by magic.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:04 | 1535828 Monetative Easing
Monetative Easing's picture

Bill Gross is cheering this, and yet treasuries are rallying.  Methinks this doesn't mean what he thinks it means.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:42 | 1535910 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

I hope everyone ends up in Treasuries again.  That would be funny.  It would be like if we went into hyperinflation and people raided the donut shop.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 02:40 | 1536068 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

They did raid a donut shop (Krispy Kreme) in London last night (search Londonriots on twitter, someone posted some pics). Does this mean hyperinflation (of the waist line that is)? ;-)

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:06 | 1535837 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

These days 'stepping up to the plate' means admitting that the US economy  is in deep doodoo

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:05 | 1535838 takeaction
takeaction's picture

Sorry for the Off topic post...very important.  You must stay out of the rain.  Tyler I hope you can break this story wide open.

Oklahoma rain as with all of the rain accross the US is very radioactive.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:11 | 1535859 Number 156
Number 156's picture

I heard this, saw the video and it seems hes detecting short range alpha radiation.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:20 | 1535898 takeaction
takeaction's picture

And?? Yes he is detecting short range alpha radiation at an extreme level as compared to the background norm.  Scroll down to "Biological effects".  I would bot be out in the rain...

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:25 | 1535915 Number 156
Number 156's picture

I looked it up, It cant be alpha because it cant pass through anything, even into the sensor of that detector. It has to be Beta.

If it were gamma radiation, he wouldnt need to walk the sample up to the detector. Yeah, dont drink it. 

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 03:52 | 1536151 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

Where does one buy radiation detecting device?  Radio Shack in my area does not carry any.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 08:28 | 1536428 trav7777
trav7777's picture

ZOMG...4x background.

Any coal plants within a couple hundred miles?

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:07 | 1535839 Number 156
Number 156's picture

Still, one has to wonder if S&P is waiting for some kind of payoff. Thats the way the ratings game has worked for the most part. Otherwise we wouldn't have been cracking jokes about ratings agencies.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:09 | 1535852 franzpick
franzpick's picture

The 60 year fed-sponsored credit-binge has made almost everyone look good, and some, like the world's largest bond fund manager, look great.

The final credit collapse will show up the very best for what little they really are.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:10 | 1535854 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

One is either part of the problem, or part of the solution.

Bill Gross is part of the structure, literally, that is the cancer that's ravaging the United States and the globe.

His hollow words do nothing to change the fact he's sold his soul for money in this life, and no one should give credence to Gross, who is just another vampire sinking his fangs into the jugular of the Ponzified corpse he has helped to create vis a vis his Tango with The Federal Reserve.

I would love to suggest 'Death Of A Salesman' for Gross's eulogy.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 08:31 | 1536433 trav7777
trav7777's picture

yeah, except Gross has fuckyou money now and his own island.  He ain't gonna be killing himself for the life insurance

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:11 | 1535858 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Kospi down near 7% (!) 

Hang Seng down 4%

Singapore down near 5%

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:12 | 1535866 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Kospi got raped indeed. Now ``only`` down 4%...

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:19 | 1535893 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  Who trades that wata kospi?  no volume...

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:12 | 1535863 European American
European American's picture

Probably old news, but Blythe Masters has her own blog.

Blythe Masters

and you can tell her exactly how lovely she looks.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:24 | 1535912 tyler
tyler's picture

Probably is right.  I don't need you to tell me to leave comments on blythes supposed website.  Hundreds have already done it and the points been made.  We don't need to look desperate.  

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 02:17 | 1536046 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Of course the site is real. BM's a narcissistic twat. And Evil. So, if she reads the comments, she'll merely find them amusing.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 07:30 | 1536332 dellbalboa
dellbalboa's picture

God i hate that woman!, Please tell me you are joking? What do you see in her? she's an ugly ass bitch!

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 10:30 | 1536984 janus
janus's picture

she is rather cyborgish, and even a bit mannish -- and perhaps the worst skin i've seen this side of a leper colony.  oh, and she does have that sort of 'i am not a good person' vibe to her.  and she looks like she would smell of fomaldahyde.

see something; say something

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:13 | 1535868 chump666
chump666's picture

s&p 100% got it right!  finally 'voices' from the market are saying this debt/spending/bailout/bandaid Bull Sh*t gotta stop

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:13 | 1535869 Nostradumbass
Nostradumbass's picture


" I think S&P finally demonstrated some spin. S&P finally got it right."


Calling Dr. Freud... Dr. Freud are you there?

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:21 | 1535901 SPAREPARTS
SPAREPARTS's picture

To big to fail and To fucked to face, inflate, devalue, spend, choose your poison, the guy in the street gets it no matter what and theirs no way out.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:35 | 1535946 Die Weiße Rose
Die Weiße Rose's picture

Ja, Ich bin hier, aber der Econ ist kaputt, tot...Hirnschaden, cactus !

wie sagt man in englisch: buggered up and he died in the Ass !

next: Australia Recession ! (high AUD, shit economy)

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 10:33 | 1537016 janus
janus's picture

vat is it, swine hound?  i'm playing backgammon with hegel (the arrogant minx)...had to wait four eternities for this rematch, and i'm on the cusp of crushing his bloated ego.  so this better be good.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:20 | 1535874 Milton Waddams
Milton Waddams's picture


Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:15 | 1535875 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Vulcan mind "MELDS"  KIRK I am!

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:16 | 1535879 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 I respect your crew "Tyler" Don't let US down!

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:17 | 1535883 mt paul
mt paul's picture

thought the middle class

was/is the status quo...

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:37 | 1535885 caerus
Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:21 | 1535900 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  Nice to be normal!

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:24 | 1535914 PulauHantu29
PulauHantu29's picture

"There is no risk of a downgrade," said Timmy


"WASHINGTON (AP) -- A Standard & Poor's official says there is a 1 in 3 chance that the U.S. credit rating could be downgraded another notch if conditions erode over the next six to 24 months.

The credit rating agency's managing director, John Chambers, tells ABC's "This Week" that if the fiscal position of the U.S. deteriorates further, or if political gridlock tightens even more, a further downgrade is possible."



Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:27 | 1535921 darkstar7646
darkstar7646's picture

I think we are finally past the event horizon, and things begin to take their own tolls here.

London is, as noted, literally rioting, though it's not clear whether this is a response to a police action or more a general state of the economy (or both!!).

The ECB is literally done, because if it lets Italy fail while propping up the rest, they could risk a severe retaliation.

The dollar is now poised to take out all-time lows after 72. (It's at 74.307 after probably a couple of intervention attempts.)

The fact is: You CANNOT enforce fiscal discipline without enforced population reduction in the same term in which you enforce the discipline. The present worker and tax bases CANNOT support 315,000,000 people.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:39 | 1535961 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

It has little to do with population.  The problem is the population to wealth creation ratio.  A very different beast.  You could have only 315 people in the world and it would still be unsustainable if less than 50 of those were actually producing something.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:43 | 1535974 darkstar7646
darkstar7646's picture

It does and it doesn't. Thing is, you are right, and the point I'm trying to make is that you can't have 315M people if, in reality, only about 600K people are actually making any real money in the country anymore.

And that's pretty close (the top 1/2 of 1%) to reality at this point.

Saddest thing is that I think this is what the conservatives and Libertarians want -- a "Get Right With God or Die" scenario.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 08:32 | 1536438 trav7777
trav7777's picture

bbbbut...S&P has UK rated AAA!  France too

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:28 | 1535924 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

Are they pulling the plug?

Impossible you say?

The IMPOSSIBLE happened Friday afternoon as traders were on their way home for the weekend. S+P downgraded the sovereign debt rating of The United States from it's long undeserved AAA rating. 

 THIS could never happen and was inconceiveable to past generations. Even though the U.S. has not deserved it's "AAA" rating for many years, this was really not spoken of until about 6-12 months ago. 

 Why now? Why at the end of the worst week for the global financial system in nearly 3 years? And directly in front of a Fed meeting? On a Friday? ... smell a rat... just not sure what kind of rat.

Standard and Poors would not dare downgrade U.S. sovereign debt without "permission". You must understand just how big this event is. This is like saying "EVERYTHING" paper in the world got downgraded because the Dollar is the foundation to everything.

S+P can't go to the bathroom without approval from "TPTB," whether they be ratings of foreign sovereigns or within our borders. Something as important as credit ratings cannot be left to the "free market" any more than the equity, debt, FOREX or commodity markets can. Think about this for a moment.

NOTHING happens by chance, especially when it comes to the credit rating of the most powerful entity in the world, period. So why and why now? More importantly, what will happen?

Interest rates are going to sky rocket and the Dollar will get smashed," or that Gold and Silver "should" explode. This is what Mother Nature has been pushing for for oh so long while governments have tried to rewrite economic law. 

 Could this really be it? We all have known for so long that policy was awful, destructive and leading down the path to bankruptcy. Have they actually "hit the wall?" Seriously... S+P being "allowed" to downgrade "anything" unless it was "sanctioned," and surely permission would not be "given" unless it was really time to abandon ship. Is there something going on that is so bad behind the curtain that the "plug" was effectively pulled?

 If "yes" is the answer, the sheer size of the system and the fact that everything is now computerized means you should not blink.

This trainwreck will be in super fast motion and the only way to stop it will be by closures of everything financial.  They know it is so bad and "impossible" (there is that word again) to hold the system up any longer, so why not give S+P their 15 minutes of fame before they take the blame? 

 "...the U.S. and the rest of the financial world would have been perfectly fine if it weren't for S+P CAUSING a panic!..."

Do not delay on ANYTHING that you need to get done. This includes any and all financial preparations as well as personal, such as topping off any storage that has been "eaten into."  The "guns" are now pointed in the direction of the U.S., our financials will be scrutinized and do not (have not for many a moon now) "hold water." The speculators will now attack the U.S. financially. Any "win" they hope to take home will vanish unless removed and held in a hard and real asset. A panic can and will ensue at any moment for any reason, or even no reason at all - this is the nature of panics.

This will be "different" this time!  The difference between the coming crash and the 1929 crash is the scariest part. Back then Gold and the Dollar were synonymous, the government was not part of the problem and they were financially solid. The Treasury actually had Gold and real audits were performed. The government had very few "tits" offered out to the public and the people were proud and self sufficient. The social fabric today will be ripped apart as soon as the panic arrives because no one (or very few) "helps their neighbors" anymore and more than half receive handouts. Today it is more like "help yourself to your neighbors things if he is too weak to protect them" than anything else. In a panic scenario this is exactly what will happen.

Just remember, "everything happens for a reason" when it comes to government announcements, this  is no different. THIS will be viewed in hindsight as the proverbial "plug" being pulled right before our eyes.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 02:31 | 1536059 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Well written

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 02:44 | 1536073 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

I agree this downgrade seemed so unlikely...given the fact that there are so few things tptb don't control.  Bix Weir theorizes that a coup is underway to userp power from the cancerous banking cabal.  He also says, in so many words, that market manipulation by naked shorts and margin rule changes are red herrings to cover for the complete and absolute market control through HFT algos.  He might prove to be right on both counts.   

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 03:58 | 1536154 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

I get the sense this event was green-lighted partly to panic the public into submission. Already I'm hearing how the reason S&P did the downgrade was due to a 'lack of leadership' in congress and now each side is blaming the other as being too extreme. What we'll see is this Super Congress step in and try to start exerting more and more control, all in a 'bipartisan' manner, of course. Not to mention, further FRN destruction. They are trying to solve the problem of system fragility by making it even more fragile, all with the approval of a panicked populace.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 08:37 | 1536449 trav7777
trav7777's picture

if you had to write a conspiracy plot script, this would certainly be the catalyst to galvanize the public into accepting austerity.

The real problem is that ROW has been living off of our monetary creation for decades...our debt has been the base upon which their growth was leveraged and none more so than China and Japan.  Think about the reality of how much currency appreciation they should have experienced through all of this export but which has been abeyed by wanton currency manipulation.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:29 | 1535926 caerus
caerus's picture

omg the super congress is sooooo hot right now...

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:32 | 1535931 Doyle Hargraves
Doyle Hargraves's picture

Bill seems to be doing what few are willing to do right now, bet against the administration and the other powers that be. He, Steve Wynn, S&P, and a few others are sticking their necks out hoping not to get them stuck in a guillotine. Not saying past actions have reflected great credit upon any of the above mentioned folks, but it seems like they are the only substantial mainstream voices of dissent saying look "shit is fucked up and will be for a while".

Or it could all just be part of the script...

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 02:30 | 1536058 caerus
caerus's picture

bill's probably the most honest poker player i have ever met...wait..what?

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:33 | 1535934 gwar5
gwar5's picture

I've always said this smelled like it was always supposed to be a one way trip for the USD.

You don't create $1.5 Trillion deficits to infinity unless you've got the green light to crash the economy and the currency. The cabal running things always looked like they were running up the credit cards like trailer trash because they knew they were going to file for bankruptcy the whole time.

Next up, NWO white knight to save the world and make everybody grateful for their new money. Of course, the exchange rate to convert will be shockingly punitive for those countries with huge debts.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 08:38 | 1536450 trav7777
trav7777's picture

the problem with this theory is then who gets to run up the massive debts necessary to keep the exponential compounding going?

In whatever time frame debt needs to double, it has to double again...who is going to do that?  It is the nature of interest-bearing monetary systems to implode themselves.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:33 | 1535936 Goatboy
Goatboy's picture

Why not reveal S&P's ties with Al Qaeda and tomahawk their HQ to bits? It worked around the world to solve problems.

Or is this meant for the rest of us to accept their market religion? If they downgraded worst bully in the world, their market religion must be righteous and true.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:38 | 1535942 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Gold just busted a nut


+$63 now

Started right as BOJ stepped in.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:44 | 1535978 darkstar7646
darkstar7646's picture

The BoJ stepped in for the first or second time tonight?

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:35 | 1535943 Milton Waddams
Milton Waddams's picture

Why is "bill gross" on teevee all the time?  Legit question; a media whore talking his book, 'does it because he can', passionate about the subject?  Why is this person always on the teevee 'advsing' about this or that?  Were I he, I would have hookers doing lines off my dick at I commanded my super yacht to attack somalian pirates with my ray gun because I can.. The question is rhetorical of course. 

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:36 | 1535947 nscholten
nscholten's picture

Hats off my ass.  Like they had a choice.  And US dept is even AA+.  They had to do something as the world goes "WTF"

Isn't US debt technically AAA if 2 out of 3 agencies have it rated AAA.  This was planned is back firing bigg time.  The soonerit crashes the sooner we can maybe get our shit together.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:36 | 1535948 honestann
honestann's picture

It is rather amazing so few people seem to "get it".  The relevant facts and bottom line is utterly trivial, so I will lay it out for all to see.

#1:  The federal government of the USSA has a printing press, and the federal reserve (its partner in crime) can cause unlimited dollar-unit credits to appear in the accounts of its bankster owners and buddies.  Therefore, there is inherently zero chance that the USSA won't pay interest or principle on its bonds unless the federal government itself is disbanded by the states (as it should be).  Anyone who measures "rating" simply as "probability the interest and principle on bonds will be paid" must rate federal debt strictly on the basis of the probability they will still exist at the time the bond in question will expire.

#2:  Like every single fiat currency in the history of the universe, the value of the dollar measured in real, physical goods is falling, and falling fast.  Therefore, anyone with half a brain would want to know whether the value of the interest and principle he receives on a bond he purchases will have [how much] greater or lesser value (in real, physical goods) than his investment.

If the received value is more than the investment, the investor earned a profit.

If the received value is less than the investment, the investor suffered a loss or haircut or default.  Sure, you could say the default was a partial default if you want to, but it is in reality a default, for the creditor failed to return even the original value loaned to him.

The above is the entire story concerning the rating of the USSA.  Unfortunately, S&P is basing its rating entirely or almost entirely on the basis of theory #1, and the downgrade is based upon the very real possibility that the federal government of the USSA shall cease to exist, exactly as that other "evil empire" of 40 years ago ceased to exist (the USSR).  And make no mistake, especially given the FACT that the USSR ceased to exist, anyone who claims it is impossible that the USSA will cease to exist in the near future is precisely as stupid or disingenuous as TimmyBoy was to claim "the debt rating of the USSA will never be lowered".

However, what S&P and everyone else who wishes to be honest should do is to formulate their ratings on the basis of both #1 and #2, because they are both very relevant considerations.  In fact, in this case, #2 is even more relevant, because whether or not the USSA manages to exist for another 30 years to pay off its 30 year bonds, the value they will repay for those debts will be massively, enormously, astronomically less than they received.

Not one single entity who buys a bond from the federal government of the USSA will earn a profit as measured in real value, not even 30 day debt.  And any entity who buys a 30-year bond from the federal government of the USSA will be utterly wiped off the face of the earth, financially speaking.

Thus, on any honest analysis, the debt of the federal government of the USSA is vastly lower than "junk".

What advice should S&P give?

Prepare for Weimar, the sequel.  Or USSR, the sequel.  Or both.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:43 | 1535975 gwar5
gwar5's picture

That's why the Chinese and others are saying the USA is in default already, by inflating our way out of debt. Chinese have have a point.They're being robbed just like we are holding USD.

Rickards: "In a credit crises you can default,  you can find a way to pay your creditors back, or, you can choose option "C" which is to inflate your way out with bad USDs, which is really a soft default. Bernanke has obviously chosen option C."

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 08:40 | 1536453 trav7777
trav7777's picture

The Chinese are thieves as well; they shouldn't whine about being robbed.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:36 | 1535950 gwar5
gwar5's picture

Holy shit!  Gold is now up $47.90, to $1712.

And where it stops, nobody knows...

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:44 | 1535977 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

I would like to know who is buying it. My general theory is that small guys, the general public buy silver also known as "poor man's gold". When gold rockets, the big boys are buying, e.g., hedges, central banks, billionaires. They need a lower volume higher value product. The big guys are moving in is my guess.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:55 | 1536000 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Its the big boys alright. And the gold shorts are fucked...Margin calls this morning Bitchez!

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:40 | 1535966 Goatboy
Goatboy's picture

How is PimpCo different from Madoff? Still not caught?

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:42 | 1535969 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Richard Koo coming up on Bloomberg...This should be good.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:53 | 1535999 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

He was fantastic.  Krugman needs to listen to an actual Japanese person telling how the U.S. is duplicating the EXACT same mistakes that Japan made.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:45 | 1535984 Little John
Little John's picture

Seems a little bit of truth goes a long way these days.  YIPPEE KI YAY!!

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 02:41 | 1536072 Incubus
Incubus's picture

During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.


- George Orwell

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:51 | 1535996 jakethesnake76
jakethesnake76's picture Hey all we have to do according to Greenspan is print money to pay off our debts, no really...

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:52 | 1535997 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture
European Central Bank acts to prop up debt of Italy, Spain


Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:55 | 1536002 Boston Wealth
Boston Wealth's picture

You think S&P futures are ugly tonight; you ain't seen anything yet!

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 01:58 | 1536011 Botox4U2
Botox4U2's picture




It's coming through a hole in the air,
from those nights in Tiananmen Square.
It's coming from the feel
that this ain't exactly real,
or it's real, but it ain't exactly there.
From the wars against disorder,
from the sirens night and day,
from the fires of the homeless,
from the ashes of the gay:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.
It's coming through a crack in the wall;
on a visionary flood of alcohol;
from the staggering account
of the Sermon on the Mount
which I don't pretend to understand at all.
It's coming from the silence
on the dock of the bay,
from the brave, the bold, the battered
heart of Chevrolet:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the sorrow in the street,
the holy places where the races meet;
from the homicidal bitchin'
that goes down in every kitchen
to determine who will serve and who will eat.
From the wells of disappointment
where the women kneel to pray
for the grace of God in the desert here
and the desert far away:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on
O mighty Ship of State!
To the Shores of Need
Past the Reefs of Greed
Through the Squalls of Hate
Sail on, sail on, sail on, sail on.

It's coming to America first,
the cradle of the best and of the worst.
It's here they got the range
and the machinery for change
and it's here they got the spiritual thirst.
It's here the family's broken
and it's here the lonely say
that the heart has got to open
in a fundamental way:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the women and the men.
O baby, we'll be making love again.
We'll be going down so deep
the river's going to weep,
and the mountain's going to shout Amen!
It's coming like the tidal flood
beneath the lunar sway,
imperial, mysterious,
in amorous array:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on ...

I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean
I love the country but I can't stand the scene.
And I'm neither left or right
I'm just staying home tonight,
getting lost in that hopeless little screen.
But I'm stubborn as those garbage bags
that Time cannot decay,
I'm junk but I'm still holding up
this little wild bouquet:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 02:00 | 1536016 boeing747
boeing747's picture

Monday WhiteHouse will announce S&P is 'domestic financial terrorist'.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 02:10 | 1536035 RiskAverseAlertBlog
RiskAverseAlertBlog's picture

Would not argue a "dysfunctional political system" ... right up to the 32 bi-partisan co-sponsors of HR 1489 -- Return to Prudent Banking Act of 2011 (Glass-Steagall).

You deceive only yourself to suggest S&P has "the guts to finally step against the tide of conventional sycophantic wisdom and tell everyone even a modest part of the whole truth."

You're saying Treasury's AAA rating won't soon return once Glass-Steagall inevitably is reinstated and the $13-17 trillion of U.S. Treasury debt presently backing a hopelessly insolvent trans-Atlantic banking system are unwound, this as a mountain of worthless private lablel "assets" effectively are stuffed down the throats of institutions whose S&P grease, which added to the firm's current treason, will leave it little choice but sing like a canary?

After having been complicit in crippling the banking system with "assets" currently marked to fantasy on bank books (and headed for mere pennies on the dollar), S&P's present downgrade of the U.S. Treasury -- an agency with power unlike any private enterprise in the realm that, S&P has operated like a reckless hood -- makes the firm nothing less than an enemy of the state. The charge its downgrade gives to those "dysfunctionals" who now will venture only the more rapidly to cut, cut, cut and reduce Treasury's outlays will, contrarily, serve to bring about the demise of Treasury's full faith and credit. Debt Treasury has flooded into the banking system these past few years being the only thing to have prevented the banking system's collapse, in acting to decelerate this flow, the banking system's collapse is assured. So too a collapse in Treasury receipts. Thus, S&P is acting to bankrupt Treasury. ENEMY OF THE STATE.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 02:32 | 1536061 honestann
honestann's picture

Bush, Paulson, Obama, Pelosi, Reed, Krugman, Greenspan, Bernanke, Geithner and everyone with power in the federal government back at least to president Johnson are the real enemy of the state AND the nation AND the world.  Not to mention the thugs who destroyed the USA in 1913 (federal reserve and income tax) and again in 1933 (mass theft of gold from everyone).

Without a doubt S&P has aided and abetted endless scams too, but to focus on them at this point in time is disingenuous in the extreme.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 08:43 | 1536460 trav7777
trav7777's picture

You all complain about all the Congress and the Presidents yet your countrymen elected them.

Real people went to the booths and pulled levers for these guys...even Barney Fag and Chris Dodd, two of the most corrupt reps in existence, along with Nadler and Rangle.  They are reelected over and over again.

So just wtf exactly are you trying to save?  You're just trapped on the Titanic but you don't have the wheel nor can you convince the other passengers of a problem.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 21:00 | 1671331 honestann
honestann's picture

Ha!  I never voted, because I knew long before I was 18 that I would be sanctioning the predators and their practices if I voted for anyone to fill those offices.

And guess what, dude?  I am not responsible for ANYONE else on earth, so the fact that people are absolute, complete, utter fools, morons and sheople does NOT reflect on me, and does NOT obligate me to their insanity.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 02:11 | 1536037 janus
janus's picture

OH MY GOODNESS!  has anyone ever heard of paul tudor jones?  well, it's probably a bad thing for the world that janus has.  If you're staying up late to watch the markets and want to fill an hour with, well, power...

some of his views on life and whatnot are affected nonsense, but he's turned my mind on to this whole notion of trading...i may be in the midst of an experience

oh, and he seemed to have nailed the 89 collapse...but called it for 88.

now on to Mr. Gross's thoughts.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 02:14 | 1536040 Arch Duke Ferdinand
Mon, 08/08/2011 - 02:57 | 1536091 hidingfromhelis
hidingfromhelis's picture

I think S&P finally demonstrated some spin.

Freudian slip, winning comment of the day!


Mon, 08/08/2011 - 03:33 | 1536139 besnook
besnook's picture

so bill is happy to be talking his book especially since st&p finally agreed with him, wink, wink, nudge, nudge

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 07:20 | 1536311 dellbalboa
dellbalboa's picture

Bill Gross is a piece of shit! This guy sells US dollar short and then turns around and acts like he's a righteous mofo,

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 09:58 | 1536750 Downtoolong
Downtoolong's picture

Gross is starting to look and sound like a financial televangelist. No doubt he is talking his book like every other high profile fund manager who has some ability to influence market outcomes.  That’s OK with me. When you’re right, you’re right. It’s the fifth time this year Gross has broadcast to the world exactly what I have been thinking to myself. What’s so amazing is that it only takes average financial market knowledge and common sense to develop these notions, and that’s as complicated as it should ever be. I don’t see any harm listening to these guys; they do help to stimulate thought. But, it’s your own fault if you put too much faith in them, or S&P for that matter.   

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 05:12 | 1667535 chinawholesaler
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