Bill Gross On Where "Bad Bonds Go To Die": Joins Paul Singer In Hatred Of Treasurys

Tyler Durden's picture

A week ago we brought you Elliott Management's summary opinion on US paper: "We Make This Recommendation To Our Friends: If You Own US Debt Sell It Now." Today, Bill Gross doubles down.

And the amusing thing, of course, is that the short bus brigade will, as usual, take this as an endorsement of stocks even as the bear flattener thesis develops.

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vinu02's picture

Bond is gonna die and people think vix is also gonna die HOW LOW CAN VIX REALLY GO ? CAN VIX REACH ZERO ? 

Renewable Life's picture

Wouldn't a VIX at zero, be an indicator that the market was 100% centrally planned, no voliltility left, no need, when the Fed and Computers are controlling every move!!!!!

Tell me which candidate will arrest Ben Bernanke and round up the rest of the thieves and put them on trial???? Neither, that's what I thought, well then the VIX will probably go to zero!!!

TruthInSunshine's picture

Who/What will be the bigger fools when the Federal Fractional Reserve Racketeering Syndicate and its Primary dealers own the overwhelming majority of equities and bonds (and MBS and anything else that can be purchased with The Bernank's electronic credits and alchemy)?

How does AAPL get traded higher even amongst a group in collusion, using electronic credits, when they all already own massive portions of it?


Good luck carbon life form 'investors,' good luck carbon life form 'traders.'  He/She without an electronic printing press spewing electronic, monopolistic, 'legal tender' is up a creek with no paddle.

Oh look! Niagara Falls!



drivenZ's picture

bernanke is not the problem, congress and the rest of the folks in washington are the problem.  

Everybodys All American's picture

Bernanke allows the government to continue to run without a budget to our long term detriment. Because he is willing to print indefinitely the real tough choices that Congress is elected to decide upon do not have to be made. Even worse you can't vote the jerk in charge of the Fed out of his office. So nothing ever changes.

drivenZ's picture

"Bernanke allows the government to continue to run without a budget"


technically speaking but that's completely letting the white house and congress off the hook. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. To Bernanke's defense he's said this a number of times now. He shouldn't have to force politicians to make tough choices.  That's Washington's job and they should cut the partisan crap and just do it. That's what we pay them to do. 

Bay of Pigs's picture

Defending the Bernank now are we? LOL.

drivenZ's picture

it's just the reality of the situation. People here need to pull their heads out of other ZH commenters asses and start thinking for themselves. bunch of sheep on this site. 

Renewable Life's picture

I think for myself everyday idiot, maybe you might want to pull your delusional, fractionally bankster addicted head, out of Benancke's ass!!

You think that crook is a hero who saved your sorry ass, but you think Bernie Madoff and Robert Sanford as criminals!!! Get your sorry ass back to and Bloomberg where you belong, you can't handle hanging around the truth punk, you can't handle the truth! And the truth is......your belief in a credit addicted, bailout crazed, moral hazard destroying, fractional banking system, is as pathetic as believing in Santa Claus at your age!!!

Panafrican Funktron Robot's picture

Please kindly look up.  See that light?  That's the entrance to the cave.  Please get the fuck out of the cave.  

TruthInSunshine's picture

Are you at least implying that The Bernank is the identifiable face of someone who is a bagman and who works for other bagmen of The Money Masters?

vast-dom's picture

TBT up day trade. Bond bubble will pop.

Dr. Engali's picture

When the vix hit 10 and change that's the time to buy volatility. Bad things happen when the vix hits 10, or good things depending on one's perspective.

ITrustMyGut's picture

maybe this is optimistic... but...

recall Willie and a few others spoke about %1.5 10Y as a black hole.. that would suck all capital.. then.. it happened..we saw 1.5.. and below....

now... its rising.... suggests... maybe too early to call..just the same... collapse of UST bonds... could now be beginning... which will implode all things UST debt will be OFF THE CHARTS...

and the bad  petro dollar experiment... over?

GMan_'s picture

Bill Gross: The most interesting man in the world.

Bond, James Bill Bond..

cocoablini's picture

Remember the last time Gross closed a few bond.funds and went short? It didn't go well for Whatbonds will he invest in since he does not buy stocks?
He sold bonds and the FED mopped it all up and Bonds stayed chronically resolute. The fact is in a depression the senior currency and debt vehicles stay firm because all other debt is an order of magnitude worse . Yes.US will never pay off its debt. Yes the US dollar is a piece of shit. Yes the political system was broken by the financial system No the dollar will not go to zero in the next.20 years. See British Pound Sterling before WW1. It takes decades.for a senior currency to unwind from the financial mechanisms.

ITrustMyGut's picture

thts the Nick Gaurdino perspective... has asome legs...  or could be absolutely wrong too... only time will tell...


Im betting the end of petro dollar is at hand....

Thomas's picture

I use Treasury-backed money market funds at 0% because the yield gain of the 10 year is just so uninspiring. I am going to lose 1.4% per year. Oh shoot me now. With that said, Bernanke is the biggest fucking socialist on the planet. He thinks central planning of complex systems by a committe of idiots and dildos will work. What a fool.

disabledvet's picture

Factually spot on. And we all here are forever "peering into the future" to gain advantage "over the other guy who's going to get killed fer sure!" as all those Fighter and Bond traders say. All I would say...indeed CAN that once you "lose control of the long end" (Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy) you don't just "get it back." do we do as France and "throw the entirety of the State to keep that sucker DOWN!"? Or do we "allow for a return" and the commensurate principal reduction of course.

slaughterer's picture

Money flowing out of 20+ Treasury and European MMs into the US stawk market.   Even zombified high-beat momo (PCLN, CMG) getting a bid, now that GOOG/AAPL are inflated beyond all reason.   

CrashisOptimistic's picture

How can you possibly conclude that when volume is hitting decade lows?

Do you realize how much money is in Treasuries and how much volume they would generate if they actually were going to stocks?

If there are bond sellers (rather than merely a pause in buying from terrified Europeans) then they are going to cash.  Probably out of fear of oil price, which is inflation, which is bad for bonds.

Older stodgy bond investors who were in bonds because they were scared do not suddenly become swashbuckling stock buyers, and they certainly don't when you have clear evidence (microscopic volume) that they are not doing that. 

slaughterer's picture

Not all stawks receiving low volume.  

CrashisOptimistic's picture

But what are you imagining?

You are suggesting a 67 year old man whose retirement is largely funded by his nest egg and miniscule Soc Sec, who was in bonds to keep his LIFE safe, not seek profit, just keep safe in a terrifying environment . . . this old guy is suddenly going to become a swashbuckling buyer of PCLN and CMG?

If you were trying to make a case like this with Exxon or Procter and Gamble, it might hold at least a teaspoonful of water -- though not much more because the old guy CANNOT risk 2008 or he will literally starve, but regardless of that, this scenario of yours seriously needs to recalibrate.  No old guy whose life depends on his nestegg is leaving bonds to swashbuckle.

Equities are rising for the same reason they have risen for the last few years.  There is no volume.  There is no price discovery.  There is no market.  It's all computer HFT, and everyone here knows it, and if they are in this market they are not trading or investing.  They are betting.

This is not what we grew up with.  This is no longer capitalism.  Take your money out and buy farmland.  Nothing else has value that can survive.

slaughterer's picture

It is not 67 year old men buying AAPL and GOOG right now.  

CrashisOptimistic's picture

What has that got to do with bonds?  Bond investors are historically far older than stock investors.  You started your scenario with stock money coming from bonds, and volume disproves that.

Now you're jumping all over the place.

FEDbuster's picture

"GET OUT NOW! Invest in things you can stand in front of and defend with an AR-15", Ann Barnhardt, July 2012

Farm land/seeds, silver/gold, plenty of food, guns/ammo, etc....

LongSoupLine's picture

all the farmland is dry right now.  You can get it real cheap!

J 457's picture

The money flowing out is being used to buy groceries, health care, gasoline, and pay property taxes.

post turtle saver's picture

"... and pay property taxes."

Can I get an AMEN? Of all the items you listed that one gets the least attention and arguably has the most impact. You can never be comfortable in truly owning your home because of that nefarious tax. It's a mis-incentive as well since assessors are always pressured to value everything up even when it's depreciated / old / junk, all in the name of maintaining government revenue.

Property tax needs to be made illegal.

Mercury's picture

If only Bill. 
It's more like:

The government is where  bad debts get transformed into a zombies that will never be extinguished until they feast on and ultimately absorb their opposite value from private wealth.

Bad government debt doesn’t die until someone else takes it in the neck.


buzzsaw99's picture

lmao gross said the very same thing @tnx ~ 3.5

derek_vineyard's picture

fxxking fed might make him broke first....if we double dip hard as I think we are doing we might see 1% paper like japan

fundementals don't matter

Dapper Dan's picture

Do not believe his vows; for they are brokers,
Not of that dye which their investments show,

But mere implorators of unholy suits,
Breathing like sanctified and pious bonds,
The better to beguile. This is true for all:

larz's picture

Sell it??!! what about my interest payments!

buzzsaw99's picture

your coupon is under the cushions in the sofa

NotApplicable's picture

Thanks to kids, EVERYTHING ends up there.

I once pulled out an entire slice of cheese; still wrapped, thankfully.

FRBNYrCROOKS's picture

Last year he sold all his T-Bonds and shorted the USD, then did a Mea Culpa, now he is bashing Bonds again? Make up your mind Bill! I'm putting my 401 in Money Market account and it , probably, isn't safe there.

buzzsaw99's picture

last week he said stocks are dead too. wtf?

Dr. Engali's picture

You'd be better off putting some  in PM's before you get vaporized.

orangedrinkandchips's picture

dont fool yourself....BILL IS BUYING!!



slewie the pi-rat's picture

don't buy them if you don't like them, billy-boy-buy

short anything ya want billy-boy

how's that pension-funding going? 

in spite of all yer ongoing, non-stop bullshit, bill, every twitter & tweet so impotent, especialy for tyler who has founded a new industry picking the corn outa yer shit and letting us smell every little hernel of shit you produce!


ATG's picture

The nomination of Paul Ryan confirmed BG on TNX as surely as the election of 0 confirmed the end of his "precious" middle class. 

TNX now targeting +39%:

TYX still targeting -46% to 1.5%:

VIX targeting 8.5 with AAPL ~3 points from testing previous highs:

Options Overnight now holds SPY puts:

Atlantis Consigliore's picture

its the Cramer Gross Show, bye bye bye, sell sell sell, run ru nrun 

orangedrinkandchips's picture

Yes, in a REAL world ruled by natural law, like the shit we learn about in school, you would run, not walk, away from Treasuries. Of course.

Yes, in a REAL world ruled by natural law, like the shit we learn about in school, equities should not be going parabolic.


However, Stocks will keep going up and bond yields will sit on these low yeilds forever like the fat-ass at an all-you-can-eat chinese buffet that never leaves....(YOU GO NOW! YOU BEEN HERE FOUR HOUR!)

Bernake ordered the code red.....the truth is our 'beloved' govt CANT HANDLE HIGHER RATES.....PERIOD.


BILL KNOWS THIS...stupid fuck, tricks are for kids!


NotApplicable's picture

Yeah, it's hard to understand the logic of shorting in a ZIRP world. If they ever do "pay off," there will be no entity left to collect from.

Muppet Show 2.5?

laozi's picture

Did you read Currency Wars by James Richards? He has this theory that complex systems implode spontaniously, and if this is true Bernanke will not be able to control stuff indefinitly.

Anyway. Markets are not rational anyway. Things _have_ to be absurd (so that even the thick-headed gets it) before the trend turns.

NotApplicable's picture

There is no need control. All that is needed is continuous, destructive influence upon a system in order to undermine any competition it would otherwise produce (the ole "nature abhors a vacuum").

Take away our escape routes, and they have little left to fear from the masses.

I fully expect that FEMA camps will someday fill up voluntarily, as it will provide the last facade of "civilized" life.

FRBNYrCROOKS's picture

I think the plan is for them to get their's before everything crumbles. Then they can hang out, Gatspy like, and have parties while the rest of humanity grovels in the dirt ekking out a meager existence.