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Central Banks Helpless As Denmark Goes NIRP, Cuts Deposit Rate To NEGATIVE 0.2%

Tyler Durden's picture


A few days ago we noted that the ECB may well be contemplating the monetary neutron bomb, which would see it lower rates to below zero, ushering in a Negative Interest Rate Policy. Today, Mario Draghi cut such speculation short promising the ECB has not discussed this. Yet one bank which certainly has is the Danish Central Bank, which just lowered its Discount Rate to 0%, joining China, England, the ECB, and, of course, Kenya in easing, but also went one step further and cut its deposit rate to negative 0.2%. Keep a note of this: NIRP is coming to a central bank, and shortly thereafter to a bank deposit branch, near you very soon.

From Bloomberg:

Denmark’s central bank cut its main borrowing costs to record lows and brought the rate it offers on certificates of deposit below zero, as policy makers test uncharted territory to fight a capital influx.


The benchmark lending rate was cut to 0.2 percent from 0.45 percent, while the deposit rate was reduced to minus 0.2 percent from 0.05 percent, Copenhagen-based Nationalbanken said in a statement today. The move followed a quarter of a percentage point cut in the European Central Bank’s main rate to 0.75 percent. Nationalbanken doesn’t hold scheduled meetings and only adjusts rates to defend the krone’s peg to the euro.


“There’s no experience of how negative deposit rates will affect the financial markets and the krone,” Jacob Graven, chief economist at Sydbank A/S, said in a phone interview today before the decision was announced. “It’s a sign of the strong Danish economy. This is good. The opposite situation would be far worse, if the central bank would have to hike rates to defend the krone. We have a luxury problem.”


Denmark has stepped up its battle to prevent the krone from strengthening beyond its currency band as the nation’s haven status attracts investors. Danske Bank A/S, the country’s biggest lender, said last week it now has a risk scenario that envisages Denmark abandoning the peg should the cost of fighting currency appreciation grow too high. The bank doesn’t view this as a likely outcome, it said.

The liquidity trap has been sprung. Soon everyone will be paying their banks for the privilege of holding their cash for them.


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Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:22 | 2588653 shanearthur
shanearthur's picture

Tyler, is this the 4th dimension I'm living in? Seriously, this can't end well.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:24 | 2588660 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

At this point, any end to this would be well.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:36 | 2588729 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

All I Know is that SOMEHOW out of these ludicrous policies, The Ultra-Rich Billionaires will end up Fatter and Richer than ever ...

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:59 | 2588894 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

many remain unaware that the melancholie danes have pegged to the EUR currency, same as the swiss SNB

altho this is constant QE tyler doesn't mention it;  but these "free" central banksters of europa, plus the completely BK brits are printing like there's no tomorrow [if they stop printing]

two weeks ago, the danes started publicly groaning under the euro, and when the SNB went to negative, this is what they were groaning about

one or two people wrote about it at the time as i recall

these counterparties do have nice offices tho, don't they?  but they just don't want to count out the c.a.s.h. do they?  

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:08 | 2588942 Mark Carney
Mark Carney's picture


So if -0.2 is nominal, what is real???


LOLOLOL welcome to the outer limits.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:34 | 2588732 Kingbingo
Kingbingo's picture

They should just make it illegal not to maximize your debt every year, they know they want to.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:44 | 2588757 Divided States ...
Divided States of America's picture

and GOLD goes down 20 bucks? If I live in Denmark, I would be stocking up on gold right now.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:48 | 2588813 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

Part of the CB's interventions are to suppress the POG, ESPECIALLY on GOLD-Positive dayz like this!


It will not work forever, they are bound to Fuckup. The day IS coming.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:02 | 2588910 Quinvarius
Quinvarius's picture

It is important that they create a positive feedback loop of both printing money and losing all their gold they will need to back their debt in the blowup.  Without this feedback loop, we would never have low targets of 8-10k and high targets of 50k.  That is how we got this far after all.  I say let them dump, and thank-you very much.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:53 | 2588867 Yellowhoard
Yellowhoard's picture

But Warren Buffet says that gold just sits there.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:58 | 2588893 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Apparently "sitting there" is worse than depositing with the CB of Denmark where the money actually disappears.

But then Warren Buffett wouldn't exist today had it not been for the bailouts, so of course he'll agree with the establishment.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:14 | 2588948 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

"" But Bluffet says that gold just sits there. ""


Hehehehehehe, Yeah...

And our Paper Fiats "Just Sit There" on Semi-insolvent Bank's Hard-drives, earing negative interest...


He's a nice Ole-fecker, isn't he ...

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:00 | 2588905 sunaJ
sunaJ's picture



 Little Miss Muppet
 Worshipped Warren Buffet,
 Ignoring his moral decay.

 Along came the crisis,
 Still The Oracle's advice is:
 Buy stock in Berkshire-Hathaway.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:11 | 2588929 Tippoo Sultan
Tippoo Sultan's picture

Paying the moneychangers at "Nationbanken" for the privilege of deposit ?

A shoe box for my krone specie, hidden at the bottom of the hamper containing Pimco's dirty shirts.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:11 | 2588956 Carl Spackler
Carl Spackler's picture

Why would a central Bank want to create a run on banks?

A run on banks doesn't impel savers to spend more, it causes them to panic and cease spending.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:28 | 2589016 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

You mean dollars--not gold. Dollars earn a positive return. Neither gold nor euro's do that.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 13:13 | 2589437 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Dollars earn a positive return.

Perhaps in nominal terms, if you have winning 32 winning days every month (including Feb), like the Golman Suck Thimbleriggers.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:41 | 2588771 i-dog
i-dog's picture

Be careful what you wish for! IMO, you now have just 70 - 100 days left to prepare before a very heavy hammer falls on the US.

The global oligarchy appears to have all their ducks coming into formation now -- and their planned denoument ain't pretty for us non-oligarchs!

Once the rulers see that the game can't continue beyond their present tenure, they just blatantly jam their theft and control systems right in our face ... which is exactly what they are doing right now (and have been continuously since the last US election).

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:47 | 2588822 Bartanist
Bartanist's picture

I wonder exactly how well they have their ducks in a row. Using ancient Rome as an example, they cannot afford to upset the military and police and make sure their pet slave enforcers are well paid (bribed), otherwise it will most likely be open season on oligarchs ... which ends badly for the oligarchs as well.

How are they prepared to make sure the slave enforcers are taken care of?

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:02 | 2588914 Offthebeach
Offthebeach's picture

Enforcers zots out oligarchs. See Rome, American Revolution, Lenin, etc....

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:52 | 2589123 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

Offthebeach says...

Enforcers zots out oligarchs. See Rome, American Revolution, Lenin, etc....


Jumbo says...  So what....the Enforcers then become the new oligarchs or are wiped out or controlled by the new ones.

"Meet the New Boss....same as the Old Boss ! "

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:04 | 2588928 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

If you haven't been paying attention they have been beefing up the police state across the country. They are having "military drills " with tanks in the streets so the populace gets used to seeing them. They are also coordinating globally with other foreign countries "training" on U.S soil. The take down is in place. It won't be long now.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:14 | 2588967 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

In a banana republic, and I know Ecuador from experience, the keys to keeping order are in 1) maintaining the police pensions and 2) the standard armed forces' bribes.  It's really that simple.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 13:03 | 2589386 AlamoJack
AlamoJack's picture

Yeah, maintain POLICE PENSIONS WITH WHAT???  Beanie Weenies and Spam?  Hahahahaha!  Even cops want to eat.  Guess they'll just steal ours since they already have ALL THE PHUCKING MONEY

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 14:51 | 2589767 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

"With what???"  That's easy.  Access to black markets and illicit goods.  And that's how the world goes round.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 15:09 | 2589823 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

poppies and coca leaves, maintaining the masses with profits bank-washed - the amrkn world does indeed have many black market irons in the fire pit.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 15:18 | 2589871 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

the "black market" could be contraband, it could be goods (stolen, confiscated from criminals, etc) sold at discount without cost to consider (pure profit), it could be goods released into the black market whose legal sale is highly regulated or taxed (liquor, nicotine, firearms), it could be access to financial products that actually deliver real growth, take your pick.  Expand your horizons, anything is possible under the sun.  Just don't think tptb will EVER run short of tradeables.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:21 | 2588985 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Yes, but that doesn't really explain how they'll be paying for it all...

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 13:32 | 2589492 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

Drones being tested----HA--- in OK now. People completely dismiss this. It's unbelievable.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 15:14 | 2589847 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

Texas appears to be the Queen of Drones,

Houston police, Texas A&M, other Texas agencies have gotten federal permission to use drones

guess OK doesn't want to be "left behind" in the race to corral the herds. . .

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:33 | 2588930 i-dog
i-dog's picture

Back in those good old days, the (usually wealthy) mercenaries would go and sell the use of their sword and horse to another potentate, or just go back home to their veggie gardens, if an employer couldn't continue paying. These days, the sword and horse (drones, aircraft carriers, cruise missiles, etc) stay with the only potentate ... while the landless mercenary must find a way to eat. On top of that, the globalist empire controls all money flows and can print (or not) at will.

So ... voilà ... if a mercenary wants to eat (when the food supply chain is cut), he will not only be required to be chipped and compliant, but he'll also go to the front of the queue at the "free gubmint snacks" counter if he dutifully mans his joystick and keeps those drones circling over the terrrrrsts (ie. you and me).

There will be no nukes ... there will be few troops on the streets keeping order ... just "Papiere, bitte" checkpoints everywhere.

There is little, if any, time left to retake sovereignty. The time to act was last year (when I was getting junked for suggesting that secession was the only way to stop these fuckers).


[edit] For the first time ever, I'm recommending that you watch an Alex Jones interview -- with a very sharp lady and which gives a good rundown on what they are doing right now in the US (with Europe and elsewhere to follow shortly thereafter, if not simultaneously in some countries): (35mins)

BTW, this video explains exactly why they are building those ghost cities in China. I don't know why I didn't guess it earlier!

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 13:37 | 2589518 lemonobrien
lemonobrien's picture


Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:27 | 2588665 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

Completely OUT OF CONTROL Idiots ...


Like it or not, its an MBA / G-Sacks world we live in now.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 20:31 | 2590616 NJBDeflator
NJBDeflator's picture

just wrote an article about this: "Back In Black"

Fri, 07/06/2012 - 05:07 | 2591089 Uber Vandal
Uber Vandal's picture

JFC, German 2 year notes just went negative.

"The yield on the two-year German note, known as the Schatz, sank by a basis point to -0.01% in early trading, according to data from Tradeweb, indicating that even with no return on offer, investors are still keen to park funds in a safe retreat. ..."

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:23 | 2588654 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

We won't be so much paying the banks to hold the cash, we will be paying them to hold it back.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:23 | 2588656 Jason T
Jason T's picture

bury it in the back yard instead.  Purchasing power will rise wth the coming deflation.  Seem Ben has been unable to stop the deflation.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:56 | 2588880 agent default
agent default's picture

Next step: Aggressive devaluation.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:34 | 2589044 JoBob
JoBob's picture

JasonT: I gave you a greenie for knowing that back yard is two words. Oh...and the deflation thingie, too.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:23 | 2588658 TrainWreck1
TrainWreck1's picture

And so NIRP began...

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:25 | 2588669 RacerX
RacerX's picture

And the Bankers rejoiced; the NIRP is Good.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:24 | 2588661 Pretorian
Pretorian's picture

New bubble coming, bigger and better.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:25 | 2588664 fuu
fuu's picture

Damn and I sold all my metals to get long the NSE.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:05 | 2588934 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

and when you issue that good-as-gold fuu IOU to the IRS/Treasury, ALL yer criminal counter-parties smile upon you...

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:25 | 2588668 razorthin
razorthin's picture

Yeah, well enter the fukking worldwide bankrun as people elect to stuff cash in various orifices at home.  Oh yes, smart move a$$holes.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:39 | 2588766 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

They'll just print to fill the deposit vacuum.  No one wins here.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 15:11 | 2589837 Gief Gold Plox
Gief Gold Plox's picture

Paper and ink producers. :)

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:54 | 2588870 toady
toady's picture

Yes, that is the most obvious outcome, but what is the man behind the curtain doing?

The first scenario that pops into my head:

Mass withdrawals

Claims of 'blackmarket' fraud, currency invalidated

Consumers must turn in 'green' money for 'blue'(or you pick the color)(or electronic-only fee-based debit cards)

If you fail to turn in 'green' by a certain dateit becomes worthless

And the exchange rate is five 'greens' for one 'blue'

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:34 | 2589042 scatterbrains
scatterbrains's picture

Next comes fiat with expiration dates.  Better hurry up and spend it before it gets wiped out.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:25 | 2588670 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

Note to self:  Must buy a mattress with a lock.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:26 | 2588672 Clayton Bigsby
Clayton Bigsby's picture

It's gonna be awesome when the general public realizes what this means, sez fuck paying the banks to hold my cash, and put it all under the mattress.  Time to fire up the popcorn - this is getting good...

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:40 | 2588772 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

Here are some ways to play this:

1) Invest in safe manufacturers. Everyone needs one to store the cash. Mattresses aren't safe, especially if one smokes in bed (cigarettes, that is...).

2) Invest in firearms and ammunition manufacturers. Everyone with a safe full of cash needs to protect it.

3) Invest in manufacturers of gun safes. Everyone with a gun should have one.

4) Invest in home security companies. Anyone without a firearm needs someone to monitor the home, and not everyone can be home all the time.

5) Invest in PMs, because cash is a depreciating asset even without NIRP.


Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:27 | 2588674 anarchitect
anarchitect's picture

Great! Eventually we'll all get paid to borrow and spend, uh, invest.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:44 | 2588805 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

Correction: you'll be taxed if you don't borrow and spend. SCOTUS made that legal, you realize.

Wait a minute. That describes inflation, and we already have that in consumables. Use it or lose it.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:26 | 2588676 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

These idiots are fucking retards. They can't possibly be doing this thinking it will help. They have to be trying to blow it up on purpose.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:36 | 2588748 pods
pods's picture

Denmark is officially the fastest horse in the glue factory.  

With all that "liquidity" sloshing around they are trying to avoid being swamped.

It sucks to have to hit the drowning man over the head with the oar, but if you want to stay afloat, you have to do that sometimes.


Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:40 | 2588777 Kingbingo
Kingbingo's picture

No actually they can be thinking that they are doing the right thing.


Its keynesianism, it’s a religious thing, don't worry if it makes no sense to you, that just proves you’re not a professional politician.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:44 | 2588807 fajensen
fajensen's picture

Of course it will help: Banks can borrow cheaper and lend at 16% rates to borrowers so they can get more leverage and lose more money faster; it will trigger a conversion frenzy in the mortgage market - each conversion of a typical DKK 1.5 Million mortgage will generate roughly DKK 30000 for the bank and DKK 30000 for the tax office, everybody is happiiiie; Each conversion sticks the pension funds, holder of the mortgage bonds, with the option of having to reinvest at Zero interest rates, which screws over savings and - basically - reduce future liabilities, which is sorely needed because the pension funds probably lost a big package already, which they are hiding. Stocks should pop too, for a few hours. Enough for quick, scripted, Smash & Grab in VWS!!

Speeding up the flow of money for lulz annd profit, that is The Game!

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:53 | 2588818 i-dog
i-dog's picture


"They have to be trying to blow it up on purpose."

Well ... DUH!

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:27 | 2588681 orangedrinkandchips
orangedrinkandchips's picture

ok. I am told by my father-in-law (who knows everything, just ax!), lol, but he was saying the big anti-semetic fever throughout history stems from the fact that back in the days, 2k years ago, the jews were the only ones using INTEREST. Islams, Christians and other non-brainwashed people of the time NEVER CHARGED INTEREST or used it. Probably never heard of it.

They thought the jews evil and greedy (aka human nature) for wanting return on the loan I gave you.

Not sure if the story is right or not but sure as shit seems like we are going full circle back to a day where INTEREST IS BANNED, GONE, OBSOLETE!. (meaning: fuck you baby boomers!)




Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:30 | 2588705 crawldaddy
crawldaddy's picture

for over a thosand years in much of the world, usury was punishable by death.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:42 | 2588798 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

And in our lifetime, we'll see exactly why.  Aren't we lucky?

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:51 | 2588849 orangedrinkandchips
orangedrinkandchips's picture





bring it back!

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 15:30 | 2589907 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture


A Short Review of the Historical Critique of Usury

Capitalism can be understood at many different levels, from honest trade and entrepreneurialism all the way to its advanced Anglo-American casino version. In the latter, the role of money undergoes a shift. It changes from its primary role as a means of recording and lubricating exchanges of goods and services. It takes on second order abstract qualities of being speculative. Here money alone generates more money, and the principle of usury – defining it as the lending of money at real positive rates of interest (i.e. rates greater than what is needed to cover inflation and risk) – is the inner wheel driving the system.

[...] we cannot help but be reminded of the Islamic hadith that states: “The taker of usury and the giver of it and the writer of its papers and the witness to it, are equal in crime.” To put it in the language of other Abrahamic religions, we have worshipped at the shrine of Mammon, the god of wealth. Mammon has now transmogrified into Moloch – the fire-filled hollow stone god of the Hebrew Bible. Into his lap the children were reputedly sacrificed … and that, in the name of idolatrously seeking future economic prosperity.

Through the lens of such metaphor the “credit crunch” must, like the “climate change crunch”, be understood spiritually, or in terms of deep values. It is our consumer greed that has driven the problems now faced. Whatever our religious background if any, the crises of present times can be seen as a spiritual, or a values-based wake-up call. As such, modernity may still have something to learn from the ancients.

while I may not agree with the particulars of the whole article, it's an interesting one, and traces usury back through history.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:34 | 2588734 Cursive
Cursive's picture


Interesting that you brought this up.  That is my understanding as well.  Christians and Muslims were forbidden from transacting with one another, so these inter-faith transactions required a Jewish middleman.  Christians and Muslims also thought the concept of interest was immoral and those using Jewish middlemen viewed the interest as a kind of transaction fee or necessary tax.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:40 | 2588778 crawldaddy
crawldaddy's picture

hell, Jesus of Nazareth himself got violent at the sight of these people. These money changers, who converted different areas money into a local one would charge a lot of money to convert peoples money, basically skimming money.  He saw they set up shop in a temple,and he went over and tossed their tables over.


So here we have the reported son of god, the most peaceful and forgiving man ever to walk the planet, and even he was pissed off by banker scum.


Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:11 | 2588957 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

People went to the temple to make a sacrifice to get good with God.  It was required that they make their "scrifice" in the temple with local currency.  So those that came with currency outside the area (which in those days was Roman, or anything 10 miles away) had to get their currency changed to the local stuff.

The money changers would act like the little money booths in international airports.

So that is why they were at the Temples.  They were in cahoots with the Priests in forcing folks to do the money changing thing.

Jeebus got pissed at all of them.

Sounds familiar.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:41 | 2589001 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

There is another aspect you forgot. People would save for a lifetime to make that journey. When they got there they had to buy a sacrifice(usually a bird of some type) outside the temple with the little money they had. Once they got inside the money changers would tell them their sacrifice had to be "inspected" to make sure it was free from blemish and worthy. The money changers would direct them to somebody they knew who could make that determination(usually a relative). Of course the sacrifice was never worthy and the poor people had to spend their return home money on a sacrifice that was deemed worthy . Of course the "inspector" knew somebody that could help them aquire a worthy sacrifice. That is why the Prince of Peace got angry. They were all in on the game taking advantage of the poor in every way they could.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:40 | 2588784 orangedrinkandchips
orangedrinkandchips's picture

yes, that was the description I was presented with. Thus the typical jewish stereotype....

Yes, it was against their beliefs against interest and as far as transacting between people other than their own faith it was forbidden...




Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:56 | 2588868 Cursive
Cursive's picture


Just to clarify - I don't think your statements were anti-semitic and I did not intend anything of the sort with my statements.  This is how the rise of a Jewish merchant class was described to me.  We must also rember though, that families such as the de Medici's were obviously not Jewish.  Also, the fact that most European Jews were not land owners or land holders, so the merchant trade was a natural socioeconomic fit.  Of course, the last research on the Khazar dynasty may or may not change some of these views.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:15 | 2588968 orangedrinkandchips
orangedrinkandchips's picture



thanks for bringing that up...I mean no harm or foul to any religion whatsoever...not my intention at all...I was just very curious more from a historical standpoint and not about religion. I can understand all different ways 2k years ago too it sucks getting taken and being expoited....nothing has changed but usury is legal in the US. It's exploitation at it's best. Back then and now.


Thu, 07/05/2012 - 12:02 | 2589140 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

Let's remember here....just for a moment....that Jesus and his apostles were all Jewish.  And the early Church leaders were mostly Jewish.  They all adhered to the notion of usury as evil....knew it as a form of slavery and the Gospel itself is a message against least in the spiritual state. 

This is not a Jew thing....its a sin thing....or corruption if sin is too religious a word for some of you. 

Besides...whole lot of Christians in the banking system and throughout history.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 12:36 | 2589260 LoneCapitalist
LoneCapitalist's picture

Why would anyone loan money without charging interest? Whats the upside?

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:37 | 2588760 tmosley
tmosley's picture

As I recall, Christians could lend with interest, but only to non-Christians.  It was the same with Jews, but they were always a minority wherever they lived, so they were able to make a real living at it.

Although building businesses with one's own capital is the best way, when you have a (n even slightly) confiscory government, it makes it much more difficult, as the risk to your capital is much greater.  In a mostly free market, there is a natural inclination to move away from growth by debt to growth by capital investment.  There are some who say that this was the main reason that the Fed was founded--the big banks were scared of losing relevance, and so they took over the whole system and made investment of one's own capital too risky to force people to borrow.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:47 | 2588825 orangedrinkandchips
orangedrinkandchips's picture

intersting...thanks for the input.

Of course in a Govt that can and will at any given moment taketh away and not giveth, I wouldnt trust your money to boost my business either. Scary shit; however, it's as common throughout history as weeds in the spring.


Cycles...the desperation I smell everyday by this more than obvious coordination around the globe is to stave off a down cycle....


It's like the little boy putting a finger in a dike.....Greek v. nature....

but keep trying to fight it....


Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:13 | 2588965 LowProfile
Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:31 | 2589026 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

are you sure this is correct and, more important, in any way relevant?

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:47 | 2588826 pods
pods's picture

Spot on tmos!  At the end of the 19th century banks were losing business to self financing by companies.

There needed to be a way to bring them back into the fold.

And then, purely by coincidence the panic of 1907 happened and we had to set up a banking commission which miraculously passed a banking bill that was the same plan that a group of wealthy banksters came up with.


Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:41 | 2588785 fuu
fuu's picture

That is quite the bastardization of history right there.


Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:47 | 2588823 Cursive
Cursive's picture


Give us your version.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:03 | 2588919 fuu
fuu's picture

Well 2000 years ago there were no Islams.

Romans would charge interest on loans without legal restrictions during the Principate.

The Vedas, 1500-1000 BC, speak against usury.

I am not sure what any of that has to do with the Jews.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:10 | 2588952 Cursive
Cursive's picture

We're discussing Christian and Muslim views on interest and you cite Roman lending practices?  Try again, please, and stay on topic.  As for what any of this has to do with the Jews, maybe you've never heard of the Diaspora?

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:15 | 2588969 fuu
fuu's picture

"but he was saying the big anti-semetic fever throughout history stems from the fact that back in the days, 2k years ago, the jews were the only ones using INTEREST. Islams, Christians and other non-brainwashed people of the time NEVER CHARGED INTEREST or used it. Probably never heard of it."

1) the Principate was 2000 years ago, and the Jews were not the only ones using interest at the time.

2) There were no Muslims 2000 years ago so of course they were not using interest.

3) Usury predates the period being discussed, it is hard to imagine no one had heard of charging interest as it was common enough 3500 years ago to write about it.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:24 | 2589003 orangedrinkandchips
orangedrinkandchips's picture

I am no expert, but trying to figure it out and your 411 helps FUU...



ok, so youre saying, lol, we are in the "principate" period now where the rulers are trying like crazy to keep up the status quo? (off subject I know).



Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:29 | 2589024 fuu
fuu's picture

No that is not what I am said, although I do agree that our present rulers are trying like crazy to keep up the status quo.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:42 | 2589085 orangedrinkandchips
orangedrinkandchips's picture

I understand, I was just kidding as it was a loaded question.

I just found the similarity striking...between the principate and now....nothing lasts forever.


It's funny when you step back and look at history and now it's not about color, race, religion, family, religion, sex....we are all wired the same...we are all subject to the same emotions regardless of who you are....

it's like a smoke screen to divert your attention to what is really going on.....

human nature is strong....


Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:52 | 2589125 Cursive
Cursive's picture


I don't interpret "back in the days, 2k years ago," as meaning July 5, 12 A.D. (BTW, not making adjustments for the Julian calendar) and the lending practices of that exact date when he obviously referenced Christians and Muslims.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:59 | 2589139 fuu
fuu's picture

Oh well.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:13 | 2588964 the not so migh...
the not so mighty maximiza's picture

Soo, Jesus was a pissed off Jew who was not getting a cut ; then decides to start his own temple to get a cut...right?

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:47 | 2589107 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Jesus was actually a scientologist?

You learn something new every day.  HAIL XENU!

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:49 | 2588836 orangedrinkandchips
orangedrinkandchips's picture

Like I mentioned, I am just throwing out shit and asking experts like yourself what the deal was.....I do not know.

As far as bastardization......History is the winning parties recollection of what happened.

fill us in please.....(seriously)

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:49 | 2588835 fajensen
fajensen's picture

That so? Islamic banking is the same fraud as the NO INTEREST LOAN pushed by mail-order companies: There may be no "INTEREST" but there is plenty of "FEES" along the way. Pious people deserve to be screwed even harder IMO.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:56 | 2588884 Louie the Dog
Louie the Dog's picture

Ask your father-in-law how much he's willing to lend interest free.  


Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:04 | 2588927 Praetor
Praetor's picture

Pity Islams only started around 650 AD.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:45 | 2589099 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

"Islams, Christians and other non-brainwashed people..."

HAHAHAHA!!!! Now that is an oxymoron of a statement! I agree about the interest part, but this assumption doesn't really support your argument in any way unless we redefine what you mean by brainwashing.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:57 | 2589136 orangedrinkandchips
orangedrinkandchips's picture



it's not funny until EVERYONE is offended! (Mel Brooks)

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 18:42 | 2590382 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

orangedrinkandchips said:

it's not funny until EVERYONE is offended! (Mel Brooks)

Fuck the artificial, needlessly rigid structure and the arrogant, overbearing complexity of Taoism.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 15:06 | 2589814 DosZap
DosZap's picture

 Christians and other non-brainwashed people of the time NEVER CHARGED INTEREST or used it. Probably never heard of it.

the jews were the only ones using INTEREST.


FALSE on BOTH counts, they could/did,charge usery to NON Jews, and NON Christians.

Which was not prohibited by scripture.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 17:43 | 2590258 Likstane
Likstane's picture

Exodus 22:25 If you lend money to My people, to the poor among you, you are not to act as a creditor to him; you shall not charge him interest. 

Ezekiel 18:13 ..he lends money and takes increase; will he live?  He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.

Luke 6:35 ...and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

Proverbs 28:8 He who increases his wealth by interest and usury gathers it for him who is gracious to the poor.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:28 | 2588689 illyia
illyia's picture

Incredibly stupid...

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:29 | 2588690 crawldaddy
crawldaddy's picture

bullish on mattresses and safes

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:28 | 2588691 Stoploss
Stoploss's picture

See?? Rod new what the deflationary vortex looked like. We just had to wait for it, like, 40 years.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:29 | 2588693 JackT
JackT's picture

Ponzi is a privilege not a right. 

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:29 | 2588697 OldE_Ant
OldE_Ant's picture

lol.  When banks know that FRNs are pieces of crap that smell to high heaven so badly they don't want the stuff in their banks stinking up the place that is the time to clear the decks.  WOW gives a new meaning to loan sharking.  I mean if they will take from them -.2%.  Heck I'll do better and give them -.1%.  Send me all your stinking cash!  I have a new washer!

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:29 | 2588699 AndrewJackson
AndrewJackson's picture

How is it possible that this ponzi has not collapsed yet. Seriously, i feel like I am on crazy pills.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:35 | 2588746 crawldaddy
crawldaddy's picture

this ponzi has a printing press.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:30 | 2588701 Cursive
Cursive's picture


Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:30 | 2588702 arnoldsimage
arnoldsimage's picture

i don't have an issue with paying for keeping my money in the bank. it's my theology and i consider it a tithe. it says so in the book of morgan.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:30 | 2588707 john_connor
john_connor's picture

So hold cash and gold in a gun safe at your house. 

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:31 | 2588710 Tsar Pointless
Tsar Pointless's picture

I just saw this earlier today.

"The ongoing heat wave is one of the most intense and widespread in U.S. history, according to wunderground's weather historian, Christopher C. Burt. In his Sunday post, The Amazing June Heat Wave of 2012 Part 2: The Midwest and Southeast June 28-30, Mr. Burt documents that eighteen of the 298 locations (6%) that he follows closely because of their long period of record and representation of U.S. climate broke or tied their all-time heat records during the past week, and that "this is especially extraordinary since they have occurred in June rather than July or August when 95% of the previous all-time heat records have been set for this part of the country." The only year with more all-time heat records than 2012 is 1936, when 61 cities of the 298 locations (20%) set all-time heat records. The summer of 1936 was the hottest summer in U.S. history, and July 1936 was the hottest month in U.S. history."

It goes on...

"According to wunderground analysis of the National Climatic Data Center (NCDC) extremes database, during June 2012, 11% of the country's 777 weather stations with a period of record of a century or more broke or tied all-time heat records for the month of June. Only 1936 (13% of June records broken or tied) and 1988 (12.5%) had a greater number of all-time monthly June records. I expect when NCDC releases their analysis of the June 2012 weather next week, they will rank the month as one of the top five hottest Junes in U.S. history."

Hmm. Summer of 1936, eh? Well, pull up a chart of the DJIA in 1936-37, and I think you will see our recent past, as well as present and immediate future.

The takeway: The Greater Depression will be accompanied by a dustier dust bowl and corresponding mightier market meltdown.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:33 | 2588721 sudzee
sudzee's picture

Hot air mass eminating from DC.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:06 | 2588936 owensdrillin
owensdrillin's picture

And where I live in the Northwest we have had almost the coldest and wettest June on record. The most precipitation since 1935 and flooding everywhere.

The snow pack last winter was 160% of normal and the precipitation in June was 300% of normal. The large lakes are at levels not seen in 75 years and causing lots of damage due to the high levels.

500 miles to the south the whole area is burning. Can't be the Russians anymore as they don't have the money to fuck with the weather.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:32 | 2589033 orangedrinkandchips
orangedrinkandchips's picture

oh here in the upper mid-west it's hotter than hell....


stick a fan in your oven and sit in front of it! Yards are dead....have not had rain in weeks.


Crops here cannot be doing well.....feel like I am in Arizona....

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 14:20 | 2589659 Blue Horshoe Lo...
Blue Horshoe Loves Annacott Steel's picture


Thu, 07/05/2012 - 14:19 | 2589654 Blue Horshoe Lo...
Blue Horshoe Loves Annacott Steel's picture

Fun times ahead!  I can't wait.  We're gonna party like it's 1929!

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:31 | 2588711 sudzee
sudzee's picture

NIRP - where savings go to die.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:50 | 2589117 arkady
arkady's picture

Well this may explain why they did what they did. It is Europe's largest private debt holder. Ahhh.


"Investors haven’t been swayed by Denmark’s record private debt burden, which at 310 percent of disposable incomes in 2010 is the world’s biggest, Exane BNP Paribas estimates. Instead, markets have focused on public debt in their hunt for havens."


Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:31 | 2588717 Bobby Lee
Bobby Lee's picture

The first banks charged you for holding your gold by issuing you a receipt good for a year to pay you back 98%. Welcome to the bad old days.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:34 | 2588731 crawldaddy
crawldaddy's picture

well back then they my have actually physically held it and had to protect it. They may have actually been doing something, unlike today.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:50 | 2588842 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

That 2% went towards hiring goons and thieves to rove around beating people up for their gold.  Why would anyone assume that banks were different then?  Now those charges go towards screwing you through any one of the panoply of glory holes in the vast cellar of financial riggings.  LIBOR is an example.  Oh, you hold a gold share?  Guess what, your share is worthless.  and POOF. 

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 12:29 | 2589233 knightowl77
knightowl77's picture

In Europe the beginning of the banks began with the Knights Templar....It was hazardous going to and from the Middle East, so you would go to your local Temple headquarters and deposit your funds...They would give you a script that (like a savings passbook) that you would take to the Templar Hdqrts at your destination where you could draw out your funds...Fees were charged fr this priveledge.....

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:32 | 2588719 Shizzmoney
Shizzmoney's picture

"Quantitative Easing" is a quack technique, with a chequered record--and significant problems.

It's only going to bring in a economic system that rewards those for standing pat.....which is how stagflation happens.  Which is how monopolies get bigger, and eventually, become the government.  Communist countries have tried this for years. It doesn't work.  Venzulela learned in the 60's; it will learn again.  The USSR learned the hard way (although the Kremlin still exists), and so will China.  Especially since they don't even execute pure Communism, anyways....they, like the US, have a State Corportist culture (only their ideological cock leans left).

I think the logic--give "banks" endless money, or else the real economy collapses--is 100% backwards.

How many bailouts have governments given...with no results?  If the banks were football managers...they would be sacked by now. 

You can't have a free market without risk; and when you socialize high risks at the expense of social have fascism.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:42 | 2588796 pods
pods's picture

Check your premise and things will clear up.

There have been spectacular results achieved with this plan.

There was a phrase coined a few years ago that I liked better:

Nerf Capitalism.  All the fun, but no danger of getting hurt.


Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:52 | 2588852 fajensen
fajensen's picture

I think the logic--give "banks" endless money, or else the real economy collapses--is 100% backwards.

It works fine for the banks .... who happens to employ the economists who just happens to be advicing politicians and law makers on how best to run the New E-Con-Me. Sounds like a plan, it does.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:33 | 2588722 crawldaddy
crawldaddy's picture

our banks already do this, they just call it fees.  They'll just make up some more fees in order to hide it.  Also banks only collect those fees from those with small balances, the fees are waved for larger balances.  Thats a nice fuck you they baked in there as well.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:35 | 2588741 TonyCoitus
TonyCoitus's picture

I've been withdrawing cash for about a month now at RBS Citizens.  Started with a few K's and increasing with every withdrawl.  The tellers are getting suspicious, but are accomodating.  Going on vacation? nope...going to the casino? nope?  doing something special? nope.

Keeping cash with my PM stack at a 50/50 ratio.

Crazy shit going on, but seems like no one else is paying attention.  I mention buying gold/silver to my friends and they look at me like a martian.  WTF

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:39 | 2588774 sickofthepunx
sickofthepunx's picture

me too.  no sense letting a bank hold my money for less than 1% with all this shit going on.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:22 | 2588991 hedgehog9999
hedgehog9999's picture

and you won't get it back when this shit blows up, they don't have it due to the 9 to 1 fracc banking, it was all lent out at near zirp rates with a decreased asset value or it went to bonuses of the fuckers in charge.......

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:43 | 2588802 crawldaddy
crawldaddy's picture

just be careful talking about it.  You never want it known you have large wads of cash at home.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:52 | 2588860 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

just keep stacking.  when winter comes, tell the summer grasshoppers to all feck off.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:35 | 2588742 orangedrinkandchips
orangedrinkandchips's picture

Again, not to incrimiate myself as this substance is not my cup of tea....but.....


This crap with the threats, lowering interest rate contests etc reminds me of the day when I dabbled in cocaine.....first it's expensive, not good in heat, hard to control on the move, it destroys your nose real quick, gives you turtle dick while at the same time you'd fuck anything that walked!


My point is the Law of Diminishing Returns....that cannot be maniipulated like everything else financial. You start bumping and you get high, but you hit that ceiling and you are dont get higher no matter how much you do until you kill yourself.


Now with these guys doing line after line (rate cut after rate cut) it's not doing jack shit.....


but hell....keep trying....

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:52 | 2588858 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

 "Cocaine is a hell of a drug"

~Rick James

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:36 | 2588750 CreativeDestructor
CreativeDestructor's picture

Banks will kill it: they'll charge you spread from both ends, I.e. spit roast you. Only solution will be to get the cash out. But there isn't enough printed money to satisfy everyone, so hurry up

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:37 | 2588755 EverythingEviL
EverythingEviL's picture

All your interest are belong to us

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:38 | 2588761 meatball
meatball's picture

Yeah, let's force everyone into the stock market. I am sure that would create jobs.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:47 | 2588790 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

If that money isn't in the market by now it's not going in. Bank runs will be on and that money will go straight to the mattress.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 15:28 | 2589901 Gief Gold Plox
Gief Gold Plox's picture

Hm... I wonder what sleeping with my silver stack in the mattress would be like?

Should be god-sent during this heatwave, being the best heat sink there is.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:39 | 2588765 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

For being nice enough to hold my deposits , the bank should just keep it all for themselves. It's only fair for as helpful as they have been for holding all this filthy dirty money.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:39 | 2588769 Racer
Racer's picture

Keep your money away from the greedy banksters and store it away from their greedy hands.... gold, silver and cash.... do not use a bank account for anything

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:39 | 2588770 firstdivision
firstdivision's picture

Wow, they are reallty desperate to prevent people of building a savings.  Talk about creating high-frequency boom-bust cycles. 

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:40 | 2588775 ptoemmes
ptoemmes's picture

Denmark is not Kenya.

Kenya is not Denmark.

Ahh, screw it....

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:40 | 2588783 mickeyman
mickeyman's picture

Send your money to me--I'll keep it for free!

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:42 | 2588786 ATG
ATG's picture


TD, NIRP kinda has a nice ring to it to go with Irving Fisher's galloping debt default deflation.

Trading well may be the best revenge, at least until the Wall Street casinos close: 


EQ, EUD, PM's, TNX all headed South despite rate cuts. (for the rest of the summer?). We'll know more toward the close today...

 6:10 AM - 5 Jul 12 via web · Details


Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:41 | 2588792 chdwlch1
chdwlch1's picture

And Greenspan begat The Bernank the father of QE, of whom was born TARP and his brethren ZIRP, HAMP, TALF, Twist, LTRO, Dollar Swaps, etc. etc.  Then ZIRP got plastered and begat the illegitimate bastard called NIRP who begat....who begat....????  Waiting for Revelations...

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:43 | 2588800 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Funny, now the main page displays nothing but bail bond ads for me.

I wonder if I should worry?

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:45 | 2588814 magpie
magpie's picture

Transfer money internationally - Greece The True Story for me.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:46 | 2588815 twotraps
twotraps's picture

I have got to be missing something.....NIRP?  The Entire game is in question at this point!  Without NIRP and massive rule changes coming up, it is being revealed to be a giant silly game, with banks and Govt bal sheets a Giant Pretend Account, with no real economic consequences at all. 


So...there's NIRP, but you Can't take more than 10k out at a time cause the govt will be pissed?  I mentioned to someone that the central banks and govts areound the world have more of a PR problem than economic first they needed to maintain the illusion that the game is legit, not that everyone has NIRP it is revealed as such anyway!!!!  Some entity at some point has to lose.


When we look back at 2012, 15 yrs from now, what is that Holy Shit trade we all wish we had made, other than gold??

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 10:52 | 2588853 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

I'm waiting to short US Treasuries.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:07 | 2588939 twotraps
twotraps's picture

honestly there has got to be some huge career trade in the works, but the prospect of the rules changing is tough to plan for.  Unprecedented manipulation has to have some side effects.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 11:28 | 2589018 AndrewJackson
AndrewJackson's picture

I agree. We all know that bonds are the biggest and last bubble to pop, but when will be the time to inntiate the trade? My thinking is that there should be some sort of measuring stick for bond sell offs to tell if THE MOVE has begun. Definitely don't try catching the top of this abomination. For all we know, we could be under 100 bps in the us 10 year soon.

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