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Let me guess market will go up 5% tomorrow!
Fuck'm... lets go bitchez!
F-China. Those damn currency manipulators.
BTW, F the FED/Gov't. Those damn currency manipulators!
No sense looking for fairplay in this bite-and-scratch duke-out, its just Real-Economic. China will bitch and cry about how unfair it all is, and make up bullshit about 'dialogue' while all the while angling for the best play it can make, with the hand it's dealt. Its the way the world works. Anyone talking about poor mistreated China, is on glue, or has been eating Chinese babyfood.
How is choosing one's price currency manipulation? If a company in the US sells for low profit, it's called a loss leader. They can win out, and often do. Meanwhile a nation following this strategy is a currency manipulator? Few years ago, China couldn't get prices low enough and the US just egged them on to become more competitive. There were ways to cut more costs. Damn the environment, forget sustainability. Poisoning your lakes and rivers? Suicides common in your work force? Child labour? No problem. We're a US company... we don't live over there. Those are your problems and we're okay with that. Now we look back and say 'shit, that was a bonehead move.' Yes, it was. We let our corporate 'leaders' and our government drive this change and ensure competitiveness at any cost and now we can't compete. The outcome was obvious. But isn't it interesting that we were happy exploiting the Chinese for cheap products and labour while the economy was strong?
China is no currency manipulator. We intentionally forced them to cut all costs and price us out of the market. Now we're reaping the fruits of our labour. I'm not saying it doesn't suck, but every 'great deal' we chose to buy from China was our way of condoning this. We even knew of their pollution and ethical issues, and still we bought. I don't forgive our corporate leaders or politicians, but I also recognize that everyone that bought these 'great deals' had a hand in this collapse, myself included.
Excellent points Nobody S. Back in the late 90's, I was in senior management at a Fortune 50 company. And for th elife of me, I could not understand why there was a such a huge China focus for the Board/CEO.
Millions of dollars a year of visits, scholarships for Chinese students, awards, scouring for "barely making the cut" sub-contractors. Technology transfer agreements... on and on.
And all this in the face of an openly hostile environment to work in. Language issues, government meddling issues, bribes (of course they were not called as such)....
China was set-up on purpose. As was India with the Software outsourcing play.
Now we get to see the downside of that whole game.
And regardless of how it plays out, we are ALL the poorer for it.
The Perversion of Language
This bill has zero chance of passing and while "the show" is being put on for the gullible general public, behind closed doors Obama and the whole diplomatic fleet are reassuring China that that nothing will change, and nothing will - and China knows this.
US politicians had to show Joe Schmoe that at least they're trying to do something and China had to save face and retaliate.
But it's only words, a show.
Both sides know they need each other - China has to sell its shit (products) to US and US to sell its shit (Treasuries) to China.
The consequences of this relationship falling apart are too dire and both sides know it, even if publicly they don't seem to.
Smithy, you bring up an interesting point.
"US politicians had to show Joe Schmoe that at least they're trying to do something and China had to save face and retaliate."
Is this really the purpose of this bill? To show Joe Schoe it is trying to actually help them to bring back some manufacturing jobs? For one, we all know Joe Smoe will never ever read the bill, or understand that it could possibly help exports. For two, the bill will probably only make Chinese shit more expensive. And three, we all know that every single legislation our Prostiticians write is complete obvious war on the American people. Four, the Fed is the biggest currency manipulator in the history of the World. And lastly, we know Geithner(read: bankers) want this thing real bad. Bankers could not give a shit about American jobs.
So, what possible nightmare implications could this idiotic bill have??? What's it for? War?
You're absolutely right, Mr. Schmoe will never read the bill nor will he know all of its effect on him.
The only thing that's been stuffed down Mr. Schmoe's throat by the media is that China is a currency "manipulator" and Mr. Schmoe knows that "manipulator" is a bad word.
He also knows that bad people, especially of the non-American persuasion, must be punished.
In comes Congress with the show.
Nothing changes but our buddy Joe blames our politicians less and those terrible Chinese more for his woes.
Our politicians sleep better knowing their stay in office has been prolonged for a bit longer.
Your point regarding looking the other way while child labor and slave practices went on behind the scenes to fuel our consumerism is well taken, however comparing a loss leader to a soverign nation is not a fair comparison. Pegging your currency to another nation's currency is inherently corrosive to a free market. It is something banana republics do to maintain stability. Every other nation in the G20 accepts that it's in the best interests of their nation and the global economy to allow for a floating, free trading currency. China is not doing itself any favors in the long run with such mass scale manipulation that the Fed can only dream of. The cracks in the Chinese miracle are already showing. How long before the Chinese workers, who have been treated so poorly by Chinese policy makers, come knocking on the Communist party's door? Actions speak volumes, and this is clearly their greatest fear. They can ill afford an escalating trade war.
Great point. We're only reaping what we have sown.
Exactly... This is not about China... this is about us, the USA... it is stupid to blame China for China does what's good for China ... but, it is also naive to expect honesty from the politicians for they are poppets of the business... and business will go where the cheap labor is for it does not care of the Nation.... We the Nation is to blame... We've been going to Wall-Mar as if there was no tomorrow... we have been electing the same crap year after year... we got what we asked for..... and it is up to us to change it...
Everyone loses with de-industrialization of the free market and feudal re-consolidation of those spoils except the Globalist architects engineering that transfer of wealth.
"In China . . . the distinction between slavery and freedom is necessarily not great, since all are equal before the emperor - that is, all alike are degraded. As no honour exists, and no one has an individual right in respect of others, the consciousness of debasement predominates, and this easily passes into that of utter abandonment. With this abandonment is connected the great immorality of the Chinese. They are notorious for deceiving wherever they can. Friend deceives friend, and no one resents the attempt at deception on the part of another, if the deceit has not succeeded in its object, or comes to the knowledge of the person sought to be defrauded. Their frauds are most astutely and craftily performed, so that Europeans have to be painfully cautious in dealing with them."
Funny... You are saying US citizens are much better off because the "freedom" we enjoy? Then how come we complain everyday that our politicians are selling us out? Regarding greed and immorality, how come we are having Occupy Just About Everywhere movement, if our society's morality is so high? And over all, how come we are in such a shit hole and they are booming, at the level of whole society? Europeans? Maybe you don't know that 80% of LV's sales volumn derives from China sales, that BMW and Mercedes are selling like hot cakes, that the Swiss can't supply enough watches? What do we, as Americans, have to offer that they need to buy? Things they make better and cheaper? We are supposed to be a nation that promotes self excellence instead of relying other's inferiority. But if what you said is true, that China is a corrupted and bankrupt nation, we should be able to beat them hands down. No?
China bad =\= USA good
It really amazes me how the vast majority of Congressmen/women have absolutely no understanding of economics. I used to buy into the whole world TPTB conspiracy but now I really think it's just retardation that is the main enemy.
Maybe the tbtp depend upon and create the retardation to maintain control.
Have you ever seen what a puppet looks like without a puppet master pulling it's strings?
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
However, if you want to go the "evil genius" route...they KNOW the bill won't pass...and it's all just another piece of PolySci theatre
It's still possible that it's not intentional. Now, I'm not claiming that this is how it works, but some years ago when I was looking into the mechanics of advertising, I was struck by a persistant thought. To wit, it was that "New and Improved" was possibly the most dangerous phrase in the English language.
If you think about it, the US has been built on the general principle that things must always get better, and results must be produced. When this hook was made explicit as one of the major techniques of popular advertsing, it only re-enforced the existing pattern in peoples' minds. While advertisers were using the concept to sell soap and cars, they were watering a dangerous seed in the minds of viewers.
So what happens when a person is writing a doctoral thesis in a field like economics? They can't hardly refine something that is already there- the big money and future tenure rests on creating a new paradigm, even if the existing model works fine.
The same question applies when looking at education- we've been having a problem with my oldest daughter lately, and her ability to keep up with the class in mathematics. The thing is, she's not alone- everyone else I know has children with the same problem. The issue is that they're no longer focusing on basic arithmatic in elementry school- what they're doing is treating fundimentals as afterthoughts, and rushing through basics to expose children to algebraic concepts as early as possible. I understand the theory- studies have shown that children find it much easier to learn a foreign language later in life if they are exposed it early.
The problem is that they're skipping fundimentals to do this, and it's resulting in a whole generation of students who don't have a firm grasp of things like basic multiplication. Somewhere, somebody wrote a paper about this as a doctoral thesis, and it filtered down into the system- and since the Federal government is essentially using funding as a cudgel to set school curricula, this pet theory someone came up with as a "new and improved" method of teaching math got jammed down everyones' throats.
Who knows how often this has happened, where a single idea was packaged and sold as a "new and improved" version, and then failed to deliver- when it lands in the field of education, it is memorized and accepted from then on by the students as a foundational axiom that is unlikely to be challenged, and is then used later to develop a theory that is even more flawed, and undergoes the same treatment, becoming an unchallenged assertion in the the public mind.
Looking at some of the astounding idiocy I see every day, it seems plausible enough. The fact that things are falling off the rails, and so few people seem to even have a guess as to why it is happening is actually a good argument for incremental corruption over generations, rather than some kind of overarching plan to sieze control. Sure, there are always those who lust after power, and will use any tool they can lay hands on to gain it- but a good deal of what is happening seems to be just a line of boneheaded moves by people who seem incapable of rational thought.
Could be a sign that a lot of someones tried to "improve" their own corner of reality, and the collective errors have added up over time.
that can certainly be a part of it.
however with the findings of the Reece Committee in 1954 that non taxable endowments like the Ford Foundation were intentionally trying to destroy individualism and create socialism in America by subverting the schools.. Well someone somewhere at sometime, had real intetions in changing America in such a way that it could be manipulated and controlled, do those kind of people still exist?
I have an engineering degree. I was better than most, but not a rock star, in math. I worked and cranked out the answers in A/B grade scales.
I know now more about math than I did back then. And I couldn't do a damn proof now to save my life.
My experience, and my desire to re-school, is that math back when I was in school was about process not about understanding. I see things today that sync with various lessons, such as a tire stem on a truck as it rolls past me. I read thing about statistics, peak oil, and so many other subjects and feel below-par on the topic. I see math around me all the time now, like a loud din, but I lack the ability to translate what I was taught into what I see. It is like learning to speak a language, forgetting, and then wondering what the conversation is going on around you.
I don't have an answer on this gap, but if you find one, I would drop 1k cash on the experience if its a DVD series. Personally, I see a total college math redo as the solution; ground up. I have to start over and fill all the gaps bottom up to satisfy what I want to be able to know. Currently that is actually my plan, albeit a many multi-year plan after I pay off my divorce working shit party time gigs...
DISCLOSURE: I am professional comp-sci, so while I do logical thinking all day long I don't do math for a living. But I always loved it, especially geometry.
My background is in linguistics and I didn't start getting interested in math until grad school when studying formal semantics (logic, boolean algebra, etc.). I work in tech but mostly self-taught. The few courses I've taken in programming languages have been kind of disappointing - teach the basic language but the application is always business-oriented rather than tackling more interesting problems.
There are a lot of online resources available. You might want to start with MITOpenCourseware. I've found some interesting things there. For stats just do a search, there is a lot of material out there. I am in the process of putting together a blog that will draw together some of these resources as well as programming resources for people like that work in tech without a CS degree (people like me) but it is not quite ready for primetime ;) However, you might like the following for a stats intro:
I could never learn or re-learn math from a video - I need book, paper, pencil but I know people have different learning styles.
Comp-sci is like a blend of music and engineering. The folks that are good at it have something internal and not trainable. A musician can benefit from training, but training doesn't make a musician. Comp-sci is very much like that; how things are put together can be "quantified" but "right" is subjective. Physics can be more black and white in this regard.
I want to lay a foundation to retrain, potentially, for another line of work. I got a lot of years in this one, I am capped in pay (unless I start my own business), and I am really more intereted in doing something interesting with my last 20 years. Life is a bit routine, if not for the chaos of our times.
I feel the same except didn't complete a degree but did go through the 1 year of calculus but as i was in construction it did allow me to view things differently. Was looking at a dvd series from "The Great Courses", Change and Motion: Calculus Made Clear.
Thanks, I will check it out.
I kind of hold the notion of going back to school dear beacuse I will need to if I decide on a second career. I have this crazy notion of teaching in the bush once I get my finances in order(and know I won't starve in old age, LOL).
Again, late to the thread, but this bit of history/life is inspirational:
“The only places in Alaska I haven’t been to are Anaktuvuk Pass, and Kake,” Muñoz said. Can you believe it? I have never been right over to Kake.”
“The only places in Alaska I haven’t been to are Anaktuvuk Pass, and Kake,” Muñoz said. Can you believe it? I have never been right over to Kake.”
That is BALLS right there, a sense of ADVENTURE, and a thirst for LIFE. Bust out a map of Alaska and play Eagle scout. This is the 'coot at 90, except I will be a guy and my art is logical systems that solve problems and make things work better. I will probably flop at teaching, but it won't stop me from trying.
the congressmen and women are just rubber stamps, they dont make real decisions, they do what they are told 90% of the time
CharlieSTD, I couldn't agree more. Can't even watch Alex Jones anymore. I applaud his work at bringing the Federal Reserve into the spotlight, but this guy refuses to see that the great majority of politicians, lobbyists, and investment bankers for that matter, aren't evil, they're just incompetent greedy morons.
Late to the party ... time zones and all that RM ...
Robert, they are evil for they know 'right from wrong'... we cannot and should not dismiss it for they are greedy and stupid... they must be kept responsible for the distruction of the Nation....
I DO believe that they are evil, and have nefarious and grandiose plans, as I have done extensive reading on the topic of global goverenment.
But I do agree with you that Alex is missing something in his message. END THE FED is only one part of the equation!!! Central banks need CUSTOMERS.....the POLITICIANS are their customers who borrow a gazillion fiat to fund their collectivist utopia wet dream programs. MY message is complete:
END THE FED........AND.........END BIG GOVERNMENT!
There...I already feel better!
The whole thing is yettanother ZOG grandstand play. Senate rodents passed the bill...because they know the House rodents won't. Obama proposed his fake "jobs" bill...because he knew the it wouldn't pass at all. This "2"-party death dance over the corpse of America just goes on and on and on...it is of such Clusterfucks that dictatorships are finally made..
Caligula nominated his horse to the once proud and powerful Roman Senate.
Incitatus! He was to be appointed consul I believe. Reportedly gold was a consistent component of his diet (disproving a common misconception)
Exactly. China exploited the US for a rapid rise. The US raped China for cheap products. Both sides are bastards trying to cheat the other. Unfortunately for the US, China now has the manufacturing base. Simple fact is that as a producer on their scale, they stand to recover far faster than the US.
I don't think either side is right in this, but if I were in China's shoes, I'd drop the US flat. No trade. Both sides would collapse, but China has the advantage of a command economy and production facilities. It can fabricate demand for a spell, growing their country through mandated improvements to their population's living conditions. I'm not suggesting this is an ethical thing to do to the US, but it would be a strategic one. The US wants China's currency out of the picture? China could certainly deliver.
Personal opinion - Any US citizen that feels they have a 'right' to the assets of another is deserving of a swift kick with a frozen boot. Middle East oil belongs to the Middle East. China's productivity belongs to China. And so forth. These groups have the right to price at their chosen levels, and the US has the right to accept it or not to. I don't get this fight about what China can or can't do. They can do whatever they damn well please, just as the US does. It's up to the other party to accept or reject it. Incidentally, let's not forget it was our corporations and governments that built China to what it is today.
I'm often shocked at the surprise and confusion surrounding this collapse. The US has been consuming more than it produces for decades. That's how one gets poor. China's been consuming less than it produces. That's how one gets wealthy. Is there any question why the US is outa gas? And now the US wants to strongarm China? Get real. The only power the US has is reserve status, and that fades fast. You think the military will operate when the currency doesn't buy shit? Guess again. Best analogy I can think of for the US is a puffer fish. It's all air and when it pops, there will be little left to see.
we didn't rape china for their cheap shit, their mercantile policies are to blame. china ripped off so much of our IP rights we don't owe them jack, they owe us. they can try to drop us flat but it's china who will be harmed the most; compared to the US, chinese economy relies much more on international trade. any number of country could build a strong manufacturing industry if china's not game we'll just have to prop up india. china's been pumping capital into pakistan and iran to marginalize the influence of US and india, time to give them a taste of their own shit.
and speaking of cheap chinese exports, tens of thousands of chinese hookers are pouring into the middle east. in some of the biggest cities across the region, many of the working girls are chinese; no doubt impressive though, keeping them muslim men off the edge
This is an old story. Read some history ... that is, if you want to skip to the end of the book and know what happens. The US was mercantilist in the 20s, no? Britain was mercantilist at one point, no? Others?
Humans are both noble and despicable creatures; look to your community around your and ask who you are. Be that, surround yourself with that, you want to be. Be that, surround yourself with that, you want your children to be.
stick to the topic pal. the US create value, the chinese centralize value, monopolize it to debase value. anything between toys, IT industry, cellphones to fighter jets, the chinese rips off all of our IPs. starting with their control of silk trade thousands years back, the chinese plays a sinister game. these days they treat the US as its R&D facility, every time we create something of value they carbon copy it bastardize it and mass produce it in the lowest quality to destroy our wealth.
the chinese have had used operating systems for the past 30 years, but they never paid for it, software technologies that had obviously helped them tremendously in terms of productivity. americans paid for everything, all the inventions, development of software, capitalization into software companies etc, americans ended up having to foot the bill for all of it. apple's innovations are all created in the US, then china comes in and reap the rewards. apple's supply chain alone hires over 5 million chinese workers, and more people on the distribution front, just as others get into the business of fake apple stores and iphone imitations. same story as the semi-conductor industry, born in the US, improved in Japan, streamlined in taiwan, before being debased and destroyed in china. they shall be held responsible for actions of flagrant infringement of our Intellectual Property rights.
they shall be held responsible for actions of flagrant infringement of our Intellectual Property rights.
they shall be held responsible for actions of flagrant infringement of our Intellectual Property rights.
by whom? my, aren't we feisty today. Remove China from our supply chain and most Americans would hemorrhage money so fast, they'd riot in a matter of days to weeks. Like it or not, the US and China are fucking each other. Neither of us gets out of this without the shame of being ass-raped.
Yeah, what Sid said above (or below?)
China has ripped untold amounts of US intellectual property in the last 10+ years?
And that stuff wasn't just laying underground like Oil. That represents untold man (and chick) hours to develop, either by private companies or gubmnt funded grants.
I am not at all worried about whether the US is treating China fairly - we exploited their people, their people let us exploit them so they could steal all the knowledge we have spent decades and billions of dollars developing.
We're both sharks, and now there's blood in the water. Nature red in tooth an claw n' shit.
I guarantee that the US would bounce back faster. So would the rest of the world as the manufacturing base would quickly diversify away from China. Not all of the manufacturing would return to America, but we would trade with partners willing to play fair.
China's leach economy would spiral into deflation with their host market vaporized. The peasants would likely tear the country apart and the whole place would go back for another 500 years of darkness. Oh well...sucks...but next time they will reconsider their self described tactics i.e “hide you ambitions and disguise your claws” and decide to not be so predatory.
The US would see a strong bought of inflation on the shit we didn't need in the first place. And slowly, some jobs would come back, and some of the corps that supported this whole mess will get burned. And hopefully we all learn that there needs to be balance. Produce and consume, not just f'ing borrow....
You forgot to mention that the US is the largest debtor nation in the history of the world. 40 years ago, we were the world's largest creditor nation. Whahappen?
This shitstorm has been brewing for 10 years now, both sides new damn well what they were doing, China will take the loss on treasuries and their people are set up to benefit from the coming gold revaluation.....This slow running soap opera is getting ready for the final ending,,,,,better do the kids XMAS shopping the shelves are going to be empty shortly
You see clearly - most US'ians think China needs US more than vice versa - they are wrong - China has EU, BRIC and increasingly Africa as clients, all increasingly trading in their own currencies and all together markets ten times bigger than US.
By, by US... the shelves are indeed going to be empty - because US'ians do not know how to make anything any more - and, when China dumps 3 TRILLION of US garbage paper - the USD will be worth 10-20 cents.
Merry Christmas 2011, 2012, 1213....
Except that the numbers of chinese and the oz of gold floating around don't revalue well. Unless we are talking REVALUE. And the all caps ain't in the cards. That can't happen without the system imploding.
Understand that China has shit for gold reserves compared to Europe (10k tons) and the US (8k tons). China is 1k maybe 2k tons. Given the US, European, and Chinese economies are (roughly) par right now, China gets raped on a gold revaluation; they won't be able to trade for shit. With the caveat that individuals may survive, but most of them will perish with the escalation of food prices and the collapse of trade.
It is all about trade people! Watch the barter. Better yet, figure out how to secure your own through as much bater as you family relations will allow; private and on a handshake/word. Be sure to keep it.
Prepare for war.
The US has "8K tons of gold". In whose teeth? Not in Fort Knox. No audit since 1974. My experience with several companies is that long-term refusal of audit is a sure mark of something badly amiss. I think Mr. Greenspan and his Rothschild friends smuggled our gold off to Israel some time ago.
Indeed, and one might also follow logically, if the US were to collapse or hyperinflate, Europe would most surely be taken down with us in it's current fragile state. China is currently holding their private parts very securely right now, praying that the US and Europe survive long enough for them to transition from a simple producer to a dynamic, self-sustaining economy with internal demand. I think China will be disappointed. They have attempted to rise too fast at the expense of the system that sustains their rise, now we will all fall together.
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