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As China Says No More Stimulus, Obama Comes Begging For More.... While Promising Even MORE Cuts In The Unknown Future

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Proving once again that when it comes to the definition of Banana Republic, America really has no equal, we first read in China Business News that according to PBOC adviser Li Daokui, China will "basically" maintain its existing monetary policy direction, and won't likely introduce stimulus measures as it did in 2008. Sorry "Rest of the World", you are on your own: China will no longer act as the last recourse economic (confidence) dynamo (because who the hell knows just what is going on in the mainland aside from building empty cities and grounding its entire monorail fleet, an action that was accompanied by so-called objective rating agency Dagong giving the rail ministry a rating higher than that of China itself!... once a rating agency...). However, this action of glaring sobriety does not stop our own fiscal monkeys from throwing feces at the stimulus wall in hopes something sticks. Just as last year the payroll tax was supposed to be the $100 billion gift that keeps on giving, yet crashed and burned miserable within months if not weeks, so this year we find that Obama is once again "recommending that the congressional deficit supercommittee back new measures to stimulate the lagging economy, people familiar with White House discussions said Tuesday." But that's not the funny part! No, the funny part is that even as he demands more alms, our munificent president would also "recommend the committee come up with a package that reduces the federal budget deficit by much more that its mandate of $1.5 trillion over the next decade, a senior administration official said, through changes in the tax code and social safety-net programs." So let us get this straight: more stimulus in the short-term, offset by quadrillions...nay... sextillions of savings at some point in the far future, long after the current administration is at the very bottom of the history books. Brilliant! But an even better idea: Obama should pull a Bryan Gardner and forge a money order from Hank Paulson, making Citi hand out a +/-$1 million check to every American, paid out of petty unaccounted for cash, as was the case before. Obviously, nobody noticed then; it is only Banana Republican that nobody will notice now.

More on this latest farce of short- vs long-termism from the WSJ:

"There's no reason to stop at $1.5 trillion," the official said.

 

Mr. Obama hasn't agreed to a set of proposals, people familiar with the discussions said, but the White House will begin to decide on elements of the plan in coming days. Mr. Obama is expected to make some decisions by Thursday.

 

Mr. Obama said in Iowa that when Congress returns from recess in September he will put forward "a very specific plan to boost the economy, to create jobs, and to control our deficit." He will unveil his plan before the Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction's first meeting on Sept. 16.

 

The White House is looking for ways to boost the sluggish economy and bring down unemployment that is now stuck above 9%. Mr. Obama, facing re-election next year, has been pushing Congress for months to adopt a variety of stimulus measures, some of which he could urge the committee to embrace. These include extending unemployment-insurance benefits and a payroll-tax cut for employees, which expire at year end and together cost more than $160 billion a year, and an infrastructure bank that could cost as much as $30 billion. The White House is also looking at a payroll-tax cut for employers, worth perhaps as much as roughly $110 billion, and other tax breaks for businesses of as much as $55 billion.

 

Mr. Obama's recommendations could complicate the committee's task because the stimulus measures, by increasing government spending and reducing revenue, would worsen the deficit in the short term. But Mr. Obama would recommend ways to offset those effects, and the whole package would still reduce the deficit over 10 years.

Oh please, what would he complicate? At this point only the morons at Fitch and Moody's buy anything coming out of the CBO. Zero Hedge is willing to place a bet of unlimited fiat amount that in 3 years, the CBO's current forecast for the 2014 deficit will be at least 50% off from the reality (obviously in the wrong direction), which in turn will mean that the entire debt ceiling farce was for nothing as the $2.1 trillion in 10 year savings will be swallowed by the tens of trillions in additional deficit funding that will mysteriously appear over the next several years, and be required to keep the US(S) PonzAAi from running into yet another iceberg.

So give Obama what he wants.

At this point the only thing that can save the system is if "they" just accelerate the status quo's crash course with fate, and just blow everything up to smithereens, thereby making a grand reset inevitable.

The longer we pretend something, anything can be fixed, the more pain, suffering and death will come to the people of this insolvent world.

 

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Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:36 | 1567322 Yardfarmer
Yardfarmer's picture

However, this action of glaring sobriety does not stop our own fiscal monkeys from throwing feces at the stimulus wall in hopes something sticks.

pure poetry!

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:59 | 1567403 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Have no fear, he sent Biden.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:09 | 1567438 anynonmous
anynonmous's picture

for those who hate him

and otherwise

Leo's latest

Tuesday, August 16, 2011
Death Cross Looking More Deadly This Time?
Tue, 08/16/2011 - 23:18 | 1567786 Dick Fitz
Dick Fitz's picture

"a very specific plan to boost the economy, to create jobs, and to control our deficit."

God help me, I re-read that phrase and could actually hear, in my mind, him saying it, in his voice. Thank God I've purged GWBs voice, but now it has been replaced by this moron.

He really is GWB v2.0

We're all fuct

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 23:30 | 1567811 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

Pay Attention! ALL OF YOU IDIOTS!

1. China has 1,200+% Leverage on every renminbi before the ink is dry!

2. if China's Currency is worthless then ALL that is happening when China is ALLOWED to Purchase U.S. Debt is

3. The United States is Stabilizing China as a WHOLE!

 

CHINA does NOT Own US! we are stabilizing China's entire Economy going forward!

 

NONE OF YOU EVEN DISCUSS THE FACTS OF THE MATTER!!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 02:10 | 1568079 Fish Gone Bad
Fish Gone Bad's picture

Just when things start to look "really fucked up", some banker/politician pulls another rabbit out of his hat.  Eventually someone is going to pull out Frank (from Donnie Darko), and not the Trix rabbit.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 02:13 | 1568081 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

US wants to split China so telling they stabilize China is awesome.

The bilateral relationship is used in the case of the US debt. Chinese do not convert Yuan into USD to buy US debt. They use USD they collect from the rest of the world to buy it.

China definitively not own the US. For something like that to happen, US citizens should respect their own words. After 200 years running, doubtful the Chinese believe that a single second.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:28 | 1567656 hazek
hazek's picture

I wish at least here at zerohedge the proper language would have been used where we'd call things as they actual are in reality.

 

Why say "the $2.1T in 10 year savings" when in reality it's $2.1T reduction in spending increase? 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:58 | 1567732 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Why say "the $2.1T in 10 year savings" when in reality it's $2.1T reduction in spending increase?

Actually, it's even better than that. Obama can increase both borrowing and spending while concurrently eliminating the budget deficit entirely. In our ignore-reality-kick-the-can world, the House and Senate will continue their practice of substituting continuing resolutions for an actual budget. If no budget exists, then a budget deficit is impossible.

Excelsior!

 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 23:03 | 1567749 TwelfthVulture
TwelfthVulture's picture

spread out over 10 years.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 23:40 | 1567839 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

My wife and I are going to save $1 trillion in spending increases next year by not spending $1 trillion dollars.

Fuck we are good!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 02:15 | 1568084 Lobbelt
Lobbelt's picture

I will also be cutting €10 trillion to help solve the European debt crisis. 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:38 | 1567326 legal eagle
legal eagle's picture

Bring it on......PMs storage unit is full.....

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:14 | 1567462 pasttense
pasttense's picture

You must be a multi-millionaire!

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:22 | 1567479 spiral_eyes
spiral_eyes's picture

there will NEVER be enough stimulus. not til america is at least a AAAAAAAAAAAAAA nation with warren buffett:

http://azizonomics.com/2011/08/16/krugman-calls-for-alien-invasion/ 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:48 | 1567536 Doña K
Doña K's picture

The only way obama can get re-elected is if he pulls a Paulson and sends every taxpayer in America a direct stimulus to the tune of $2,000 that's $2k X 350MM = 700 BILLION.

That's what the banks got. Maybe more. Some will pay down bebt, some will buy flat screens and ipads, some will buy groceries and some will buy more PM's

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:44 | 1567543 KowPie
KowPie's picture

"You must be a multi-millionaire!"

 

Shoe boxes aren't that big.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 23:12 | 1567770 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Sheepishly hanging head....

Yeah... but... at least I'm a multi-thousandaire.  And, from what I gather, that's better than most.

Wait- nevermind.  I've got a ONE HUNDRED TRILLION Dollar Zimababwe note, so I guess that'll have to do.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 23:34 | 1567822 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

"Shoe boxes aren't that big." But they hold a lot of gold.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 06:44 | 1568215 KowPie
KowPie's picture

Unless of course the shoebox is for a pair of these...

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/photo/2011-01/21/c_13700953.htm

...that would put ones net worth at about $3.50.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 23:13 | 1567776 trav7777
trav7777's picture

I know a guy who bought 300k worth of gold in the 90s...cost basis around 400 he said. 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:49 | 1567556 Left Right Wrong
Left Right Wrong's picture

"Include extending unemployment-insurance benefits"

 

Can someone please explain how this does anything for either the deficit or reducing unemployment?  Perverse incentives anyone?

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:31 | 1567662 Threeggg
Threeggg's picture

Last time I checked there are 100 people per (1) "one" (singular) job available.

How do you reduce unemployment by taking away unemployment payments ? oh, that's right isn't that how they track unemployment in this country, by counting claims per week. Cut off all the unemployment compensation and the unemployment rate drops to Zero.

Brilliant !

Alot of people are lazy but 90%+ are hard working and just wan't to provide for their families. Stop blaming the American people for the ineptness and greed of the Corporate, Military and FED complex !

Respectfully !

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 23:02 | 1567745 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

I doubt that UE benefits come close to covering most people's "nut".  The idea that UE benefits promote UE is bullshit.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 23:06 | 1567758 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

Excellent point.

Some folks here seem to think everyone on unemployment is just laying at the beach, kicking back and living the good life. It can't possibly be that there are no jobs to be had could it?

After all, we all know that the libertarian mythology is you just start your own business if you can't get a job. It's easy. And if you don't make it in your new business, then you must be a lazy, good for nothing, low-life bastard. It can't possibly be the utter coruptness of the system itself. No way. The Big Boyz have spent plenty of money to ensure most simple minds never consider this option.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 01:20 | 1568036 Pay Day Today
Pay Day Today's picture

Like good capitalists you must always blame the weakest, most disempowered, and poorest in society for all the bad decisions poor judgement calls and bad problems now facing America.

 

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 01:23 | 1568039 CynicLaureate
CynicLaureate's picture

You've identified the Liberarian answer, but left out a few steps.  You can't start your own business if the legal and tax structure is stacked against you.  the "Corruptness of the System" is one of the things Libertarians would fight to remove.

And of course every single one of those government obstacles was put there by someone with the best intentions of protecting somebody from somebody else.  One man's "corruption" is another man's "social justice".

You want employers to hire?  Simple: just remove all the employer's costs of hiring.  Benefits, FICA, SSRI, UEC (and escalators).  Make it risk-free to hire, and you'll have more hiring.

Right now we're seeing the break-down of the social contract, because a large fraction of the population has figured out that they don't have to work because the government will take care of them.  What's new is that a large fraction has figured out that working harder doesn't pay, because the government just takes what they earn to pay for themselves and the first fraction.  If you rob Peter to pay Paul often enough, Peter just might decide not to work so hard anymore, and he certainly isn't going to hire a 50th worker and subject himself to the employer mandates of Obamacare.

 

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 02:27 | 1568091 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

You want employers to hire? Simple: just remove all the employer's costs of hiring. Benefits, FICA, SSRI, UEC (and escalators). Make it risk-free to hire, and you'll have more hiring.

But this solution already exist. Elsewhere and it is called outsourcing.

So again, more of the same to solve the consequences of the same.

Those are the results of Smithian economics.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 04:00 | 1568130 Pay Day Today
Pay Day Today's picture

its more profitable to fire staff than hire staff. Taking away regulations won't change that.

If hiring needs to be risk free before a corporate will take staff on it clearly has nothing valuable for those staff to do. Otherwise there would be a positive return on risk ratio, and they would have hired already.

Further large companies are sitting on absolute masses of cash. Hiring costs are not impediment in that situation and they still won't hire.

The US is not going to get any more hiring, its deliberately off shored too much of its GDP now.

All hiring will be done in Asia and South America. Those are the growth markets, not the US.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 09:08 | 1568509 CynicLaureate
CynicLaureate's picture

Further large companies are sitting on absolute masses of cash. Hiring costs are not impediment 

NO!  Costs are always an impediment.   As you say, there's nothing for staff to do AT CURRENT COSTS.

The only way to insource jobs is to make the USA employee a better value than the one in China or India.  The 100% markup on labor that comes from our governments shifts the balance to far away lands.  If we cut our costs, the rising cost of oil (and increased shipping costs from China) might help tip the value equation back to the USA.


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 02:18 | 1568086 Lobbelt
Lobbelt's picture

Yeah sure, the power elite's carefully planned out government structures are very libertarian indeed. Socialists are the real solution to our problems! Oh wait...

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 23:37 | 1567832 Clearly_Irrational
Clearly_Irrational's picture

Personally I'd rather replace it with something at least mildly useful like the CCC.  Ignoring that unlikely event though failing to continue it would certainly cause a significant slowdown in economic activity, which would lead to more corporate belt tightening by way of layoffs, which would reduce spending, etc. etc.  Given the feedback effects inheirent in the economy I think we'd be better off trying to fix things from here rather than go for total meltdown and hope we can build back from there in a reasonable time frame.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:13 | 1567619 centerline
centerline's picture

What you put in your anus is really your own business.  Keep it that way.  Sick bastard.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:39 | 1567328 FunkyMonkeyBoy
FunkyMonkeyBoy's picture

When you realize that the real agenda of Obama's masters is to destroy America and to pass the baton to China as the world's new No.1 for the next century then the actions of the america's administration suddenly become clear and logical.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:56 | 1567393 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

Nobody seems to realize that a rogue president is a real possibility.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:03 | 1567413 knukles
knukles's picture

Seems to me to be a staple of converstion about these here parts.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:24 | 1567484 spiral_eyes
spiral_eyes's picture

this shit isn't america's goal.

this shit is kissinger's stupid mistake for cutting a dumb free lunch deal with the arabs and the chinese in the 70s. america thought they were getting free oil and free goods for their shitty paper. but it turned round and stung them.

learn yo history, bitchez:

http://azizonomics.com/2011/08/15/why-qe-didnt-cause-hyperinflation-2/ 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:23 | 1567477 Libertarians fo...
Libertarians for Prosperity's picture

When you realize that the real agenda of Obama's masters is to destroy America and to pass the baton to China....

Let me guess....  libertarian?

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:24 | 1567483 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Let me not guess--you're a lying sack of shit racist.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:27 | 1567655 Libertarians fo...
Libertarians for Prosperity's picture

Good to see you tonight, Cliff. 

While I have your attention, I've been meaning to ask you a question....  did you ever buy a new trailer when silver got near $50? 

I remember a post of yours from Oct/Nov where you said if silver hit $25 you were going out for a "swanky dinner." If silver hit $50, you were going to buy a new trailer.  And if silver got to $75...pop the champagne and roll out the double-wides! This redneck done gone make himself some coin!

As someone who is obsessed with becoming an oligarch, moving out of the trailer park would be a good first step. *LOL*  It's amazing how the oligarchs of today are so different from the oligarchs of yesterday.

 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:37 | 1567686 tmosley
tmosley's picture

A TRAVEL trailer for VACATIONING, you lying sack of shit.  All you do is lie, and you act as though you expect people to buy it.  Then you call anyone who doesn't buy your lies "paranoid" or "doomer goon".  SO fucking tired.

And no, I didn't buy a travel trailer, because it didn't go above $50.  

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 23:14 | 1567780 trav7777
trav7777's picture

yeah sure, Cliff...you know that's not what you meant and so did everybody else.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 00:02 | 1567901 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Reason number 92845928457 why Trav is a moron--he is unable to put together a proper sentence.

Trav is FOREVER ALONE, after his wife and kids left him for a rich jewish divorce lawyer of African decent.  So sad.  But good, because he can't beat his kids any more, like the weak loser he is.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 23:44 | 1567852 Libertarians fo...
Libertarians for Prosperity's picture

jesus christ, mosley.  You must be hitting the refresh bar like a coked-out lab rat. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but oligarchs neither live in trailers, nor vacation in them. You won't see Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Alsaud pimpin' around Lubbock, looking for trailer park. Your pompous claims of being so wealthy are running into a brick wall.  If you were as rich as you claim, you wouldn't need silver to hit some magic number before you buy a trailer or eat a "swanky dinner." 

Your claims of having cured both HIV and cancer, and your pompous bullshit about being so wealthy are looking really ridiculous.  Could it be that you're just a paranoid doomer goon with delusions of grandeur?

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 00:00 | 1567894 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I like how you can't tell the difference between the present and the future.

Who says I "need" to have silver hit some "magic numbers", rhater than merely using it as a gimmick to get the family interested.

But then, what do you care about any of that?  You just want to take any and all statements by anyone you don't like out of context and use them as fuel for ad hominem attacks because you are too weak minded to refute any of my actual arguments.  Much like Travy-boy above, who can't beat me in any form of logical debate, and thus waits for others to make an opening so he can try to pile on, but he only ends up looking like a weak idiot.  You guys aren't brothers, are you?  Perhaps you attend the same KKK meeting?

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 23:44 | 1567845 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

crap can't remember your old name. The Hitler mustache is fitting for you.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:47 | 1567547 Silverballs
Silverballs's picture

wow your actually read some of what these scumbags have written over the decades... i think when the self-proclaimed geniunses finally realize the global elite doesn't give a shit about them AT ALL maybe they'll figure it out... there is a reason david rockefeller praised maoist china

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:42 | 1567338 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture

fiscal stimulus of about a trillion dollar will

1)get the US economy growing, raising GDP, more employment, and tax revenues

1b) more tax revenues gives the ability for deeper cuts at the tail end

1c)expanding GDP will lower the US debt:GDP

 

But you need a trillion dollars, and 18-25% of it to go to infrastructure, so the 2million unemployed construction workers can have gainfrul employment.  Thus the economy will be self sustaining, as new bubbles form in health care and green tech to absorb the previous bubbles.

 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:45 | 1567356 AngryVoter
AngryVoter's picture

And why do we need to borrow the money?  Why not just print it for real.  Consumption has taken a real hit since the consumer can not take on more debt.  Why do we need the fractional reserve system to create money in debt form?  Why not print the money and reduce the tax burden.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:49 | 1567371 IrishSamurai
IrishSamurai's picture

That's the Underpants Gnomes' plan:

1. Print 1 quadrillion greenbacks.

2. ???

3. Profit.

You sir are a fecking genius ...

 

 

 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:54 | 1567385 AngryVoter
AngryVoter's picture

And you sir as a fecking genius have come to the conclusion that the fractional reserve system where banks print money and then charge interest for the privilage have perfected the exact amount of money creation our economy needs?

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:57 | 1567395 IrishSamurai
IrishSamurai's picture

Actually, I never presented any conclusions.  You simply projected your economic ignorance upon me.

Our economic issues have NOTHING to do with how much money we print or don't print ... evidently you're new here or you'd understand this by now, Francis.

 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:05 | 1567418 AngryVoter
AngryVoter's picture

That is one of the most ignorant comment I have read on ZeroHedge.  The amount of money is exactly what the problem is.  Why do you think unemployment went through the moon?  Perhaps businesses laid off employees because demand dropped.  And I'm pretty sure demand dropped in direct porpotion to the lack of increase in debt issued by fractional reserve banks.  Try again.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:09 | 1567431 IrishSamurai
IrishSamurai's picture

Yes.  Everything is solved by a printing press.  You solved the "???"

1. Print 1 quadrillion greenbacks.

2. Make more printing presses.

3. Profit (by returning to #1).

 

That is the way to a PRODUCTIVE economy ... /sarc

 

Here's a hint:  There's a word in all caps above. It is what is wrong with the economy, Einstein.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:17 | 1567470 AngryVoter
AngryVoter's picture

I understand what your saying and I don't completely disagree.  The issue is our current money system is based on debt and as the economy grows debt grows and eventually the debt becomes so large that it can't grow anymore.  That is where we are now.

I challenge anyone to define a productive economy.  I'm guessing your saying we need to make things.  So maybe we do but there is no way to say making cars is better than say great art work, or a great website.  Either way you are creating goods that are outside the realm of neccessity.  Our economy is well beyond our need to create the neccessities.  Everything else is Ipads and Iphones.  

I don't think you really understand money, how it is created and what role it plays in the world.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:26 | 1567487 IrishSamurai
IrishSamurai's picture

I understand what your saying and I don't completely disagree.  The issue is our current money system is based on debt and as the economy grows debt grows and eventually the debt becomes so large that it can't grow anymore.  That is where we are now.

This juxtaposed with your statement about me not "really understanding money" is pretty comical ... but since you "obviously" understand that debt/money is a tool for our system of exchange to advance beyond barter, you probably fully understand why the growth of debt/money supply is largely irrelevant ... 

I challenge anyone to define a productive economy.

So much logical fail in that statement ...

 I'm guessing your saying we need to make things.

Again with the projection ... easier to have a conversation (and gain an education) when you shut up once in a while and listen ...

So maybe we do but there is no way to say making cars is better than say great art work, or a great website. Either way you are creating goods that are outside the realm of neccessity.

Evidently you aren't very schooled in economics, market efficiency, free market capitalism (which we haven't had in over 100 years), etc. 

Our economy is well beyond our need to create the neccessities. Everything else is Ipads and Iphones.

And this ladies and gentlemen is why we are fucked as a nation ... wholesale ignorance and "I take everything that I have in life for granted" logic like this ...

 

I don't think you really understand money, how it is created and what role it plays in the world.

I'd love to continue this discussion, but your projection of what I know, don't know, etc. is very off-putting.  Good luck with your continued education here at Zerohedge.  Hopefully you do more listening than speaking so you'll be a lot wiser if we ever converse again ...

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:38 | 1567519 IH10
IH10's picture

What about energy?  An energy source that doesn't involve radioactive isotopes.  Without energy there is no economy.  We don't have enough energy on this planet to sustain 7 billion people and growing world economies.  Isn't that what a lot of this is about?  We can't sustain infinite growth in a finite world?  Oil is obviously getting more costly to get out of the ground.  At some point in time when it takes a barrel of oil to get a barrel and a half out of the ground you might as well leave it there.  Whatever nation solves this conundrum in an affordable, attainable manner will be on top in no time. 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 23:58 | 1567888 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

I challenge anyone to define a productive economy.

Well that would simply be when the market participants within an economy add more value than is consumed. 

 I'm guessing your saying we need to make things.  

Well the ends of most labor is some form of capital formation, so yes...

If labor ends up not producing some form of capital is it wasted labor.

So maybe we do but there is no way to say making cars is better than say great art work, or a great website.  

Yes their is, people who successfully do business stay in business because people value the capital that they produce.

Either way you are creating goods that are outside the realm of neccessity.

Not all things produced are unnecessary like food, shelter, clothing etc.

Our economy is well beyond our need to create the neccessities.  Everything else is Ipads and Iphones.

They only way our economy could possible be beyond the need to create necessities is if we were all dead. Sorry but you are draw droppingly wrong on this one. 

I don't think you really understand money, how it is created and what role it plays in the world.

No, I am pretty darn sure you don't understand. You at least know that fiat currency is debt, but you don't understand that it isn't really money. Nor do you seem to understand the difference between real money and debt currency.



Wed, 08/17/2011 - 01:32 | 1568049 CynicLaureate
CynicLaureate's picture

> I challenge anyone to define productive economy

I stewed over this very question for a decade before coming to the realization just this year that you don't have to define PRODUCTION; that's the role of the free market.  Value is defined by willing seller and willing buyer.  If you make something and there is someone willing to buy it, then voila! You're a producer.

The problem is that so much of our money goes to things we aren't buying willingly: taxes, accountant fee's, legal fee's and so forth.

You can measure the amount of coercion (ie. theft) in a system, but having less coercion doesn't necessarily make the economy more productive, because people with free will will be making the decisions about what they want to buy.

Freedom won't guarantee productivity, but you'll likely be allowed to keep more of whatever you produce.

 

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 02:40 | 1568102 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

But we are already into this world. Most of the things that have happened fits the bill given by that comment.

There is a demand for coercion. Someone who coerces does something and if someone is willing to buy it, then voilà!the coercer is a producer.

It is all up to the market to decide where or not coercion is a production object of a free market. That is the role of the free market.

Intellectualism devolves into waste when intellectuals are unable to point their system of thoughts as the issue as it is the case today with US citizenism.

Somehow, the Romans understood this and required that philosophers put an end to their life when their system of thoughts was failing.

Today, in this US driven world, most intellectuals spend their time to explain how their failing system is not failing. With a commonality: the remedy is always in more of the system. 

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 09:17 | 1568547 CynicLaureate
CynicLaureate's picture

Are you saying that Libertarians are mere intellectuals who can't adapt to the real world?

Perhaps... I can see that the USA is not ready for true Liberty, because too many are "comfortable in their shackles".

I do love your viewpoint that coercion is just another product to be bought, but that's the point of the constitution; to protect the liberties of the individual from that coercion in spite of the fact that the free market would buy it.  Most people today don't know the difference between a democracy and a constitutional republic.

That's the Achille's heel of democracy: the government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on Paul's vote.

 

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 06:48 | 1568216 Ricky Bobby
Ricky Bobby's picture

+1

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:04 | 1567417 knukles
knukles's picture

They're caught on point #2, no?

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:13 | 1567452 IrishSamurai
IrishSamurai's picture

Nah ... in reality, which folks like AngryVoter will never understand, it goes:

1. Print 1 quadrillion dollars.

2. Grift. Launder. Lobby.  Gang rape the American taxpayer when the Ponzi casino (Wall St.) has a losing day/week/month/year ...

3. Profit.

And all of the non-productive sectors (FIRE) of our economy are/were doing it ...

The biggest offender is now D.C. since Bush and Obama have been in charge ... "got to pay to play"

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:23 | 1567481 AngryVoter
AngryVoter's picture

That is where you are wrong.  I agree that is the current status quo.  But if there is any hope of something different we need real discussions of what we should be doing.  I like you suspect that we will be forced with more of the same.  But at the same time we are punching up against the edge of some really unmoveable forces.  We will either go to war with aliens or choose some other more intelligent solution.  I think the people that know what that looks like exist on this comment board.  I apologize for the ad hominem attacks.  Most of us are on the same side.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:28 | 1567492 IrishSamurai
IrishSamurai's picture

We will either go to war with aliens or choose some other more intelligent solution.

Paul, is this you?

I apologize for the ad hominem attacks.  Most of us are on the same side.

Yo, if the facts aren't on your side ... at least you can be a snarky asshole in your blatant ignorance.

 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:29 | 1567494 IrishSamurai
IrishSamurai's picture

The infamous double post ...

/Curse you button click-pause

 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:34 | 1567509 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

"We will either go to war with aliens or choose some other more intelligent solution."

Actually, that is what we have done since the Invasion of Iraq. No weapons of mass destruction (except the US Military) were found in Iraq, no terrorist cells were hiding or training in Iraq, and all this was known prior to the invasion.

For all practical purposes we could just as well have built some zillion dollar rockets with H Bomb warheads and launched them at Mars... Hey, Bush could have claimed that we had received a message from Martians demanding we hand over all earth women. 

Krugman and his neo con pals be damned!

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 23:56 | 1567881 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

This is a stroke of genius! "Wag the Dog, the Alien Threat". They won't even need to to nuke Mars just pretend, who would know?

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 08:04 | 1568305 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

what an epic failure it was to go to war in Iraq!.....Just mind boggling the chaos caused by the far reaching tenticles of the war in Iraq.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 01:34 | 1568052 Pay Day Today
Pay Day Today's picture

as in times prior to the Fed, the government should issue greenbacks itself without the accompanying creation of interest bearing debt.

Completely cut off one tentacle of the private banking octopus.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 02:42 | 1568103 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

2. Grift. Launder. Lobby.  Gang rape the American taxpayer when the Ponzi casino (Wall St.) has a losing day/week/month/year ...

The US taxpayer has been gangraped? When?

That is why the solution is appealing (and still works)

point 2 is gangrape the rest of the world. Giving a very different perspective.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:46 | 1567358 IrishSamurai
IrishSamurai's picture

You finally get tossed from the NYT, Paul?

 

 

 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:48 | 1567369 sgorem
sgorem's picture

hell, just call asswipe bernanke and have him and timmy and the kenyan work all night and print up a FEW TRILLIONS! Jeeeesh, what a BLACK COMEDY...........

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:29 | 1567497 macholatte
macholatte's picture

 

"If this guy prints more money between now and the election, I don't know what y'all will do to him in Iowa, but we would treat him pretty ugly down in Texas," Perry said to laughter from supporters in Iowa.

 

"Printing more money to play politics at this particular time in American history is almost treacherous, treasonous in my opinion," he said

Perry threatens Fed chairman

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/16/usa-campaign-perry-idUSN1E77F10V20110816

 

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 01:35 | 1568053 pan
pan's picture

Does anyone care what Perry says?

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:49 | 1567370 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

So... unlike any time in the past decade, $1 in debt will result in >$1 of GDP, which in turn will result in less debt?

Is that about right?

Also, here is what happened to the first $800 billion (ARRA) stimulus.

You are right though, it was off from $1 trillion by $200 billion.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:01 | 1567408 AngryVoter
AngryVoter's picture

Your right Tyler.  I think the decrease in consumption driven by credit crazed consumers was very large.  The banks can no longer create the massive amounts of debt money they used to.  The government could make that gap up and keep the economy moving or let it be punished by the banks and learn their lesson.  I think the government should reduce taxes to nothing for two years and fund the govt entirely on printed money.  But real printed money none of this suedo debt printing shit.  And then it should after two years start reducing the power of fractional reserve banking by increasing capital reserve ratios.  We don't need to be charged by banks to create all of our money.  Would the govt need some bumbers like x% of gdp limits on spending absolutely.  But we can not defend the current system of money and fractional reserve banking.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:38 | 1567520 centerline
centerline's picture

One step in the right direction.  The big question after this is who and how the money supply is managed.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:42 | 1567535 sgorem
sgorem's picture

"but real printed money none of this suedo debt printing shit".  Excuse me Mr. AngryVoter, but I've always been under the assumption that ALL PRINTED MONEY is, and was, and always be, "SUEDO DEBT PRINTING SHIT", no? FRN's, etc., are IOU's, and have NO worth backing them up except lies and hot air. Try a gold standard where a piece of paper can be cashed in for physical gold/silver, and in the mean time make us PM holders very, very wealthy in the New World. It's coming, whether the naysayers want it or not. 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:04 | 1567593 centerline
centerline's picture

Gold can be manipulated as much as any piece of paper. History has shown this time and time again. It is about WHO controls the money supply and HOW it is controlled - not what it is. Fiat per se is the not enemy here. Just FYI.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:27 | 1567658 AngryVoter
AngryVoter's picture

Thank you

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:52 | 1567718 Jason_1sandal
Jason_1sandal's picture

I read somewhere, I believe it was Mises.org that gold can only be inflated 16% then it is maxed out. I don't know much about it, but is this true ??

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 07:00 | 1568227 Ricky Bobby
Ricky Bobby's picture

"Gold can be manipulated as much as any piece of paper" As far as I know your God the state can't reproduce a SuperNova. The state can enslave you and it can kill you but it cannot change the laws of the universe and only a SuperNova can create gold. You see some of us think it is a good idea to limit the state. 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:48 | 1567550 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

"I think the government should reduce taxes to nothing for two years and fund the govt entirely on printed money. But real printed money none of this suedo debt printing shit. And then it should after two years start reducing the power of fractional reserve banking by increasing capital reserve ratios."

So what you are asking for is 1) No taxes for 2 years 2) Print lots of FRNs to fund the government expenditures with cash 3) After 2 yrs increase reserve ratios...

I have a couple of questons... Who is going to haul ~$30 Billion in cash around the country every WEEK to pay gov obligations (remember the $20 Billion that was sent to Iraq and $6 Billion or more went missing)... the $20 Billion filled 2 C131s with pallets of $100 bills? Of course, this money moving operation could keep the US Post Office from laying off the 220,000 employees that they want to lay off. Or, better yet, the Gov can create a new cabinet level dept to move money?

What will S&P do when the US Gov says 'no taxes for two years'? Downgrade #2! What will the one fool that is still buying US Ts do? Stop Buying!

There are many more flaws but I will stop here...

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:31 | 1567675 AngryVoter
AngryVoter's picture

I don't think you need trucks to haul around FRNs that are currently created by electrons and submitted in the same form as payment.

Why would S&P downgrade anymore then the status quo which creates the illusion we will some day pay it back.

Yes there are a lot of holes, it isn't meant to be a perfected solution but rather a thought meme of another way to view the problems.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:51 | 1567715 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Hey, you said in your post above... " But real printed money none of this suedo debt printing shit. "

So how would you have the gov move the 'real' money to where it's needed?

Maybe you believe that all should have their own presses in their homes/businesses that can be remotely controlled by the Fed?

Maybe another brewski would clear it up? I'm having one  :)

 

 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:08 | 1567432 drink or die
drink or die's picture

Cue Paul Krugman saying that it wasn't enough.  It's always "never enough" when a plan doesn't work.  The economy would be better had we spent 3x as much on the stimulus package, or if we were attacked by aliens.  It's the perfect arguement (assuming your opponent has no brains)

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:14 | 1567453 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture

Even Alan Greenspan admits his assumption about free market capitalism were wrong:  It is not self correcting!  Thus, the increase in the money supply didn't go towards productive parts of the economy.  INstead it was used by banks to cushion their capital reserves, so their prop desk could go from 8:1 leverage, to 40:1 levearge. again.  Stimulus was transferred to capital, and not labor!  Thus the incongruity between $1 in stimulus and $1 in GDP growth.

 

The system is not self correcting.  It is not efficient.  Thus if markets do not obey an efficient market theory, governmnet must play a role in directing capital.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:14 | 1567463 drink or die
drink or die's picture

You (and Alan) are talking about "free" market capitalism, not free market capitalism.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:11 | 1567615 Scisco
Scisco's picture

Thank you drink or die, you gave me a great reply to anyone who states we have a free market. Whenever I come across that statement I will simply ask do you mean "free" as in money.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:17 | 1567471 IrishSamurai
IrishSamurai's picture

Way to double down on stupid ...

The greatest inefficiencies in the market (TARP, QE1, QE2, QE2.5, the GM bailout, Fannie, Freddie, etc.) ... WERE ALL ORCHESTRATED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.  Here's what happens when Uncle Sam gets out of the way:

Citibank - FAIL

BOA - FAIL

GM - FAIL

Fannie/Freddie - FAIL

Guess what also happens ... someone else moves in and creates a better company/business and employs the people in something productive ...

 

Congratulations Leo (wherever you went) ... you are no longer the dumbest person to have posted on Zerohedge.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:26 | 1567652 bobert
bobert's picture

You seem angry.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 01:09 | 1568023 T1000
T1000's picture

You got mad skillz, Irish Samurai. Respect.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 08:10 | 1568313 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

Angry or not you are right!   +111111

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:53 | 1567566 sgorem
sgorem's picture

EXACTLY MR. DORMROOM!  THE FUCKING BANKS ARE DRAWING INTEREST ON THE BAILOUT BILLIONS(CAPITAL RESERVES) FROM THE TAXPAYERS IN ADDITION TO LEVERAGING THE HELL OUT OF MONEY FOR EVEN MORE PROFITS! CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY THROUGHOUT. 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:45 | 1567544 centerline
centerline's picture

Check out the "Chart of the Century" that was put together by Nathan's Economic Edge illustrating the marginal utility of added debt versus GDP.

Debt saturation is clearly what we are up against.  Some would claim a failure of failure of modern economics to properly account credit money... I wager rather TPTB understood it quite clearly, and managed it accordingly to system's intended end point.  The final act in the play is the misdirection, then disappearance of TPTB.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:50 | 1567561 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Nathan got out of the hot dog business?

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:07 | 1567601 centerline
centerline's picture

Now I am hungry.  Damn, have to go get something to eat.  On a similar note, that hot dog eating contest every year sure does stand out as American excess.  Sign of the times my friends.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 23:11 | 1567769 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Don't let anyone from ZH photograph you eating that hot dog, or you'll go right up on the "wall of shame" with Michelle Bachmann and Tyler Perry (or whatever that guys name is).

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:30 | 1567671 gwar5
gwar5's picture

 

I been looking for that graph, thanks. 

That graph is Kryptonite for Keynesians. The necronomy (no typo) got deader when Romerbama got their hands on it with our money and, by their very own calculations, things would have been better if we had done absolutely nothing.

Not surprisingly, Krugman is still barking like a dog for more spending, presumably to make the little unemployment line go even higher.

 

"Much of the social history of the Western world, over the past three decades, has been a history of replacing what worked with what sounded good.-- Thomas Sowell.

 

 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:04 | 1567415 lizzy36
lizzy36's picture

Circumvent everything you just said, and send each US citizen about $30K. After instituting a VAT tax of about 10%.

Quicker and easier.

Also sets of hyperinflation much faster. I am tired of waiting around for the fat lady to sing.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:27 | 1567488 JohnG
JohnG's picture

 

Yeah....it's like that sometimes.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:15 | 1567614 centerline
centerline's picture

I think it might have been FOFOA that recently talked about the potential "dumping" of debt money on our lawns by the truckload if needed to keep the system alive... speaking proverbially of course.  That would speed things up for sure.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 00:06 | 1567913 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

I am looking forward to being a quadrillionaire. Start the singing!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 02:23 | 1568088 Lobbelt
Lobbelt's picture

Your system of central command ("the government knows best how to run the economy") is the root of our problems, not the solution. I wonder why even on this site, people believe the elitist Keynesian ideology they get taught at universities even though they get to read/live the shit it leads us too every goddamn day on this website. 

 

The solution is more free market, not more government. 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:43 | 1567341 sgorem
sgorem's picture

please don't "sugar coat" it will ya?! what we have here is a failure to communicate, that the fraud that we call the us government doesn't understand that "We the People" don't want any resolutions any more, WE WANT SOME FUCKING BLOOD FROM THE WHOLE CORRUPT BAG OF SHIT !!! and lots of it........

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:42 | 1567342 carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

Looks like Bush had better stimulus plan then the current administration...

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:47 | 1567366 sabra1
sabra1's picture

bill clinton had the best stimulus. isn't that so monica?

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:06 | 1567423 knukles
knukles's picture

I wanted to start a line of humidors named "Monica".

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:43 | 1567348 Irish66
Irish66's picture

Dollar=zero, restart

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:44 | 1567349 Kynortas
Kynortas's picture

The longer we pretend something, anything can be fixed, the more pain, suffering and death will come to the people of this insolvent world.

Wankers walk and talk like this fiasco can be fixed!

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:45 | 1567350 lizzy36
lizzy36's picture

Well adsense is sending me ads for Chinese Girl dating sites and Russian love matches.

If they were sending me ad's for christiandating.com i would know the end of the world was imminent.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:59 | 1567402 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

liz-ya gotta' do something about this: a) don't surf there (unlilely), b) block adsense (and you know how to do the etc/hosts thingie, so, well u b inviting this traffic), or c) well it is inevitable and you will be i) compelled to watch the dating-thingie, then ii) date one of those pork-eating folk.

I think that you are compelled to inflict yourself on these issues.

But, well, I'm playing a psychologist on the interned.

- Ned

{just playin' ;-) }

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:45 | 1567357 Fazzie
Fazzie's picture

 I will gladly pay you Tuesday (2021) for a chance to put us even futher underwater today.

 Ive seen crackheads exercise more restraint and common sense.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:00 | 1567406 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

+1--I was going towards to the Whimpy

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:04 | 1567416 Cursive
Cursive's picture

@Fazzie

Ive seen crackheads exercise more restraint and common sense.

Sad, but true.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:53 | 1567567 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Fazzie... TPTB are now scared shitless... and it's beginning to show

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:46 | 1567361 km4
km4's picture

Limiting the Central Banks | Dylan Ratigan http://bit.ly/nI3a9S
Former Reagan OMB Director David Stockman shares his thoughts on Gov. Rick Perry’s accusations that Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke is betraying America.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:46 | 1567362 electronpaul
electronpaul's picture

"By increasing government spending and reducing revenue, would worsen the deficit in the short term." Definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

"But Mr. Obama would recommend ways to offset those effects, and the whole package would still reduce the deficit over 10 years"   total savings over 10 years: $3.42 (based on tax revenue generated from avg GDP of 5.3% for 10 year period)

RON PAUL 2012

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:08 | 1567434 Cursive
Cursive's picture

@electronpaul

At first, I thought you were electron paul.  Weird.  An electron named Paul. 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:46 | 1567545 jm
jm's picture

Electronpaul for a negatively charged presidency!!!

Not that ass protonsally.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:22 | 1567644 StormShadow
StormShadow's picture

"based on tax revenue generated from avg GDP of 5.3% for 10 year period"

Hmmm...average GDP growth of 5.3%...yeah, that's believable (only if inflation is at 4%)

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 23:46 | 1567855 electronpaul
electronpaul's picture

It's a joke, I think I read somewhere in ZH they "only" calculated in 4% growth...

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:51 | 1567375 macholatte
macholatte's picture

These problems are easy to fix...... have the Congress adjoun, now! The Congress can come back in 10 years, everyone gets reelected as many times as it takes just as long as they stay on recess. No new taxes, no new stimulus, no new regulations, no new war, no nothing. Barry can be President and play golf for 10 years and Michelle can vacation with Oprah. Just as long as he never signs another piece of legislation. 

The system will heal itself if left alone.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 00:11 | 1567933 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

This would be a good start.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:51 | 1567376 km4
km4's picture

Ditto on RON PAUL 2012

Jon Stewart Discusses The Media Blackout on Ron Paul - A Blog By Jack Hunter: http://ht.ly/64xmq

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:51 | 1567379 Scottj88
Scottj88's picture

What is coming is nothing short of a worldwide spiritual revolution.  Look inwards to find meaning, instead of outwards.

http://thehardrightedge.com/wethepeople/

Everything must be rethought.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:51 | 1567380 Eireann go Brach
Eireann go Brach's picture

Does this mean that Obama will have to put a hold on the 58 inch gold rims he ordered for Airforce one? Jesus Snoop Dogg and Jay-Z will be bloody pissed now as their buddy "O'robyomama promised them them a front row seat at the next Flavor Flav concert on Airforce One!

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:34 | 1567510 JohnG
JohnG's picture

OK.  Stop stealing my O'robyomomma name :)  I made that up.  Dammit :)

I'm changing it to O'robyourgreatgrandaughter.  O'ruintheentirefuckingworld.

O'ithoughttheconstitutionreadthatallspendingbillsmustoriginateinthehousenotafuckingunconstitutionalsupersecretcommittee.

 

Or something....

:)

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:01 | 1567588 Eireann go Brach
Eireann go Brach's picture

To copy is the highest form of flattery Dear JohnnieG LOL!

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:48 | 1567710 JohnG
JohnG's picture

 

:)

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:58 | 1567581 KowPie
KowPie's picture

"Does this mean that Obama will have to put a hold on the 58 inch gold rims he ordered for Airforce one? Jesus Snoop Dogg and Jay-Z will be bloody pissed now as their buddy "O'robyomama promised them them a front row seat at the next Flavor Flav concert on Airforce One!"

 

He changed the order to 58" Silver spinners to show his fiscal responsibility.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:53 | 1567382 T-Bond
T-Bond's picture

To be honest I am surprised the system has lasted this long. I thought it would have blown up at least a year ago. There is absolutely no way out of this mess. The Fed has brought it way past the point of no return. I hope after it does blow there is enough concrete evidence revealed to the general public to finally once and for all END THE FED! Let the bombing begin!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 00:16 | 1567948 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

Tell the guys with the pitchforks to be careful with their torches or the evidence will be lost.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:53 | 1567383 Michelle
Michelle's picture

"At this point the only thing that can save the system is if "they" just accelerate the status quo's crash course with fate, and just blow everything up to smithereens, thereby making a grand reset inevitable."

Isn't that the Grand Plan? Think about it.

 

 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:55 | 1567388 Fazzie
Fazzie's picture

The present is always a crisis with only one cure, more cowbell or rather printing of course.

 The future is presumed to be an alternate universe where we have presumably printed ourselves to nirvana, and are so overflowing with wealth effect as to be able to slash trillions,no big deal.

 

 The positive effects of stimulus are intangible, "jobs saved, etc"

 The negative effects are here and now and very real.

 

 Isnt repeating the same action expecting a different result insanity?

 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:07 | 1567428 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

The goal is still the same: prevent the big reset 

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:10 | 1567603 TwelfthVulture
TwelfthVulture's picture

Since the 30's every Keynesian intervention has been exactly that, borrow/print to stimulate.   Every previous intervention in the economic cycle has resulted in a rebound AFTER stimulus leading to the impression that it was some Krugmanian miracle that got us back on track.  I submit that it wasn't, it just seemed so.  This time around, however, the economy hasn't jump started. I personally believe that it is because the US is no longer the economic engine of the world and/or a combination of the enourmous debt burden we face (but let's not argue about this).  The point is, TPTB aren't "repeating the same action expecting a different result."  The problem is this time it really IS different.  We are getting a different result (i.e., no jump start) but they truly do see every problem as a nail because all they have is hammer (i.e., stimulate) and therefore have no choice but to continue doing the same thing expecting the desired result (i.e., economic recovery) which is just not happening.  Only a return to constitutional and free market first principles can save us now.  As we know, that is not going to happen.  Too many entrenched blocs have a vested interest in continuing the borrow/pump/stimulate model versus the economic prosperity model.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:55 | 1567390 chump666
chump666's picture

Obama has lost his mind.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:03 | 1567410 sgorem
sgorem's picture

wonder if his medical plan covers baboon brain transplants? that sure would elevate his mental capacity from where it is now. They'd have to do some preliminary surgery to pull his fucking head out of his ass though. just a thought.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:00 | 1567585 KowPie
KowPie's picture

It does. They just can't find a baboon willing to make the swap.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:13 | 1567618 TwelfthVulture
TwelfthVulture's picture

I CAN'T HEAR YOU.  PLEASE USE THE "CAPS LOCK" BUTTON!

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:46 | 1567708 AngryVoter
AngryVoter's picture

+11

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 00:19 | 1567954 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

Come on, don't be shy, tell us what you really think about him, lol ++

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 20:59 | 1567399 sgorem
sgorem's picture

somebody said mr. rick perry is g.w. bush junior after some plastic surgery. his aim is to come back and "finish the job, again", ie. "mission accomplished II", THE COUP DE GRAS. Could someone tell me where in the Hell these fucking clowns come from? has the intellect of the average american sheeple sunk so low from drugs, poor education, american idol syndrome, or listenning to hip hop 24/7 put us in this shit hole of quicksand? never mind, just answered my own question.

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:06 | 1567426 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

dude: a) who is someone?   You? and b) please save our eyes and kill the bold font.

We'd really like to know about who someone is.

We'd really like to have u tone down your posts and do better content: fwiw,

- Ned

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 21:58 | 1567582 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

I second that...

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:15 | 1567624 sgorem
sgorem's picture

a) that someone is me. by the way, if you don't recognize sarcasm, (without the <sarc>), then consider you've been "enlightened". b) i use the bold so i can find my "rants and raves" quickly scrolling this colon of posts. c) "toning it down" would be an infringement on my first amendment right to free speech. so i believe WE can discern from what camp you come from, can't WE, DUDE?

Tue, 08/16/2011 - 22:21 | 1567641 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Hey jackass, I don't 'come from a camp'...

...and, your free speech is going unnoticed because it's offensive and crude

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