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Chris Martenson And Harvey Organ: Get Physical Gold & Silver

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Chris artenson

Harvey Organ: Get Physical Gold & Silver!

Harvey Organ has been analyzing the bullion markets closely for decades. The quality and accuracy of his work is respected enough to have earned him an invitation to testify before the CFTC on position limits for precious metals back in 2010.

And he minces no words: gold and silver prices are suppressed. With extreme prejudice.

In this detailed interview, Harvey explains to Chris the mechanics how of he sees this manipulation occurring, why he predicts this fraudulent pricing scheme will collapse soon, and why it's critical to be holding physical (vs paper) bullion when it does.

The real suppression of the metals started in 1988. That’s when the leasing game started and was invented by J.P. Morgan.


These guys would go around to the mining companies and say “Listen, I’m going to pay you for your gold in the ground and I will sell it. You just pay me as you bring it out.” So that was cheap financing to the miners. Barrick, the biggest mining company of them all, went in on this and it financed a lot of Nevada projects.


Once the leasing game came, the actual selling, the extra selling, suppressed the price. In the first five years, it started at maybe three hundred to four hundred tons. It didn’t start to get really bad until probably ’97-’98 with the Long Term Capital affair. And that’s when the leasing started to become around maybe 1,000 tons of gold. And it hasn’t stopped.


And silver is the same.


And that’s why you've had a long-term, 20 years of suppression of the metals. The problem now is that the physical is now gone. Where is going? It’s gone from West to East.


A lot of people don’t know that China used to refine close to 80% of the world’s supplies of silver, because it’s very toxic. Up until probably ’85, the Chinese handled 80% of the world’s refining of silver. Now they're down to 40%, but that’s still a major part of China’s industry. They are keeping every single silver ounce they refine, and gold. They are keeping it for themselves; their reserves are rising (though they don’t tell exactly). Two years ago they went up to 1,054 tons and I can assure you it’s probably triple that now. These guys are not stopping. Just like they are not stopping in oil. They know what the game is and they are slowly taking all their U.S. dollars that are on their shelf and converting them to gold, oil, copper – anything that’s real.


And the game ends when the last ounce of gold has left London -- not COMEX, because in a nanosecond it will come back to here.


The big problem in London is that their derivatives on gold are about 50 to 100-to-1. That’s the amount of derivatives. So if I take out that 1 ounce, the balloon around it -- the derivative  -- is getting bigger and bigger and bigger until it’s ready to totally implode.


And that’s what you are seeing now. So right now, people are going to say: how high can it go? And I’m going to tell you: you are going to go to sleep on Thursday night and gold may be $1,670. And then you wake up the next day and it’s going to be a banking holiday. And gold will be $3,000 bid, no offer. No offer -- and it will be a banking holiday. Because there will be a failure to deliver.

You’ve got to have physical coins or bars. If all you have is a piece of paper -- that’s all it is!  It will just blow up in smoke.

So just go buy your physical and be thankful that you are getting it at a cheaper price today.     

Click the play button below to listen to Part I of Chris' interview with Harvey Organ (runtime 32m:36s). 

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Or click here to read the full transcript

To listen to Part 2 - Click Here.


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Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:02 | 2363639 SilverTree
SilverTree's picture

Great interview!

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:05 | 2363643 SilverTree
SilverTree's picture

$30,000 bid, no offer - [fixed]

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:10 | 2363649 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Here is a great book for everyone -

The ABC's of Gold Investing: Protecting Your Wealth Through Private Gold Ownership:

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:38 | 2363700 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture


Keep Stackin' !

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 13:52 | 2363779 Roger O. Thornhill
Roger O. Thornhill's picture

I think the podcast is all accurate up until the end. Where I think they're wrong is their belief that Europe and the US will somehow go over the cliff tied at the hip. Although they will ultimately fall over the same cliff I believe there will be a time - however brief (could be a month or a year)  - that there will be a dollar strengthening in relation to a euro implosion. The US will be seen as safe simply on a psychological level - the last bastion of traditional safety which has been burned into the minds of at least 4 generations. Don't doubt the power of delusion - it is why we have been trading real things for paper for over 100 years (and in some cases, longer).

At the point of this dollar strengthening is about when I feel I will finally go all metal as I believe there will be a decent dip in metals at that time (I already have acquired the amount that will act as insurance years ago). Soon the world will see how weak our balance sheets are and then we get the final flight for safety. It will be a bumpy ride down and there will be no real capitulation for the duration. The politicians will lie and lie harder as we go over the cliff. Never doubt that the governments and the banks will say and do almost anything to hold it together - it should have blown up 2008 but they maneuvered, lied, changed accounting rules, etc. to keep the ponzi going - you would be a fool to think they will suddenly stop lying and let the market and/or price discovery work. They just will not. It will be ugly.

Also there may be surprises from Germany, China, etc. - be ready for that - the Germans won't go off the cliff so easily without some fight at the end. China is playing it's own game. In human event things don't move staticly - they are dynamic. Think chess - not checkers. The end will come, but be aware how it comes may surprise you.

Where I think many of us go wrong is that we think, suddenly (magically), honesty will prevail. Honesty will come, but it will be a horrible up and down ride getting there. Always remember, the market can stay insane much longer than you can remain solvent. Words I live by.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 14:50 | 2363852 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Honesty will come...


More like they'll lose control and the whole damn thing will blow up in their faces.


Sat, 04/21/2012 - 15:09 | 2363880 Roger O. Thornhill
Roger O. Thornhill's picture

More like they'll lose control and the whole damn thing will blow up in their faces.

That is the eventual outcome.  As people lose confidence and finally realize that the idiots in charge are lying and obfuscating it will then blow up. All of human society is a confidence game - we do what we do because we believe it - not often questioning.

When enough people finally see the con - that's when we fall off the cliff. But like I said, they will play the game even as we fall off the cliff. 

My earlier mistake in investing was thinking the 'jig would be up' all at once. That was a bad mistake for my investing and I got burned for thinking the math would be clear and that the market was in control. The market is there, but fighting against an onslaught of liars and educated fools, both in government, finance and the media.


Sat, 04/21/2012 - 18:02 | 2364056 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Everyone knows the jig is basically up. They can manipulate it down but someone will be there to buy the subsidized metals. In other words there is no honor among thieves. China, Russia, can name them right down the line. If the Fed and the BIS want to fund everyone's PMs....what the hell.....let them at it.


It's basically come down to a game of early and stop having to worry about jerking the wheel at the last could be a second to late.


Gold has been tracking the US debt level almost perfectly for the last 10 years.....we all know what direction that's heading.




Sun, 04/22/2012 - 05:48 | 2364453 aaxiom
aaxiom's picture

I've been a stacker for quite a long time now. What I fail to understand (and what I cannot seem to reconcile) is that an ounce of any precious metal pretty much buys today what it used to buy 50+ years ago -- on average.

As this is the case, where is the manipulation? What is manipulated? Now, it goes without saying that metals are incredibly manipulated, but I must conclude that this must be the case for all asset classes if the ounce still buys what an ounce once bought.

Can you shed light on this apparent contradiction?

CLARIFICATION: I compute the value of gold per ounce as the amount of currency in existence divided by the number of ounces in reserve (which I believe is seriously understated)... thus, I believe that metal prices are certainly being suppressed. It's simply the purchasing power issue that I cannot reconcile.

Thanks for reading.

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 06:17 | 2364465 Chaffinch
Chaffinch's picture

Aaxiom - gold is more important today than it was 50 years ago as we are heading for an epic crash on a scale previously unseen. More people have access to buying gold than they did 50 years ago, and more people have access to sufficient fiat to buy gold than they did 50 years ago. The central banks are actively buying it now, which adds to the demand.

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 12:04 | 2364803 rehypothecator
rehypothecator's picture

As a long term stacker, you must think that fiat is overvalued and that some day in the future, gold will be worth much more than it presently is.  And yet it is only worth about as much, in other real terms, as it has for the last 100 years.  Therefore, it is presently undervalued.  What is the origin of this undervaluation?  Could it be the manipulation that is being spoken of?  How much would gold be worth without said manipulation?  Probably more than it has always been worth up until now.  

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 12:27 | 2364829 Shibumi2
Shibumi2's picture

Very good question. I had wondered about that as well and realized that the apparent discrepancy comes from the fact that the true price of goods and services has been supressed as well.

The prices paid for products USED to support a middle class lifestyle of american workers. The prices paid for food USED to support the production of healthy and nutritious foods. Essentially all hard goods production has been shifted to China where it is produced by slave labor. Food quality has been degraded to the point americans are fat and witnessed by health care costs.

The US lives on slave labor and faux food, and THAT has how the illusion of parity has been allowed to remain. 


One look at energy prices tells the story of what a us dollar will still buy in real products.



Sun, 04/22/2012 - 16:17 | 2365177 gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

answer is quite easy, production of many assets is nowdays much cheaper due to better technology...

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 07:33 | 2364493 fockewulf190
fockewulf190's picture

What many people do not talk about is the effect a worldwide economic collapse is going to have on the second and third world countries. Over a billion people on this earth are living on a dollar a day, and at least a billion more have two dollars a day to survive on. Anybody with a 50 IQ and above can figure out what is going to happen when that dollar or two goes zimbabwian. The World Food Program will be screaming for donations...but in which form? Dollars and Euros are toast.

Gold and Silver perhaps?

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 11:08 | 2364726 Absinthe Minded
Absinthe Minded's picture


That chart is about the best one I've seen referencing our dilemma. Note the pullback after every rise induced by debt level increase drama. That is where we are right now. As good a time to stock up as I have ever seen, besides 2007. Of course the earlier you get in the better off you are. I don't think many are taking into consideration the unknown. Exacty how high do you think the tax rates are going to be when 2013 hits? All the mandatory cuts are not going to be allowed to happen and in order to prevent our credit rating from going any lower and causing our bond rates to rise they will announce new taxes. So if you have money in a 401K that you can pull out to convert to PMs, this might be the best time. Consider, if your company match was half what you paid in, then your company already paid all the taxes, you just have to pay the 10% early withdrawal penalty. People have to get over the stigma of being "gold bugs". It is about survival, and if you think the tax rate you pay on your 401K withdrawals is going to be less than they are now then there is no hope for you. I'm not even taking into account if they decide to levy a one time asset tax. "Mr. Moneybags, I'm glad to see you've done so well for yourself. Since I know you're a patriot you should have no problem paying this one time 30% asset tax. After all, it's for the good of the country." No thanks, I'll take my chances with PMs. Not HFT manipulated, crappy fund managers that don't have a clue what to do or ZIRP induced .50% interest returns. Thanks Bernank, you've pushed us into the only thing that makes sense, but also ultimately assures your demise.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 16:34 | 2363972 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

an american business man goes to Zimbabwe to enhance his importing business with local business leaders --- soon after coming to contractual agreements, the issue of payment is at the fore --- the businessman offers 50% payment in U.S. Dollars --- whoa,... says the merchant, we don't want your fucking [kite flying] greenback --- you pay in renminbi yuan or no quano, period!    

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 21:09 | 2364235 endicott glacier
endicott glacier's picture

Bang on Roger! I think that is the scnario I expect to playout. I think dollar will strengthen and gold will see down side before restarting uptrend and could be signficant. Time to sit tight for a bit and watch...

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 21:56 | 2364276 MonsterBox
MonsterBox's picture

"Never doubt that the governments and the banks will say and do almost anything to hold it together - it should have blown up 2008 but they maneuvered, lied, changed accounting rules, etc. to keep the ponzi going - you would be a fool to think they will suddenly stop lying and let the market and/or price discovery work. They just will not."

Think of this Western Financial System as a living organism.  It will not die willingly.  It will fight in every conceivable manner to it's last gasp.  sacfice it's friends, women, children or it's own humanity, No matter.   I doubt The End be in a month, maybe in a year.  It has a lot of hidden strength (read sheeple interia) to draw on.  But The End is coming.  The Lying Train cannot avoid the Wall.

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 02:00 | 2364383 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

At the point of this dollar strengthening is about when I feel I will finally go all metal as I believe there will be a decent dip in metals at that time

That would be a long-shot bet.  I mean, you might be right (that they are not tied at the hip), but i wouldn't bet on it, the banks certainly are.  The collapse of the Euro will shatter confidence throughout the West.  You agree this is the ultimate outcome.  You were right in principle but wrong on timing in 08, as many of us  were.  But going all in on precious metals then or now was/is prudent.  Waiting is gambling. But i guess you've got insurance.  Good luck.   

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 16:06 | 2363935 CaliExpat
CaliExpat's picture

I have worked with his group before, very nice folks and the book is an interesting read.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 17:03 | 2364014 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

Excellent book, but be cautious when dealing with the company it represents,   Nice folks, not pushy, but like any investment firm they have their biases.  It may not cost them personally, but potential clients with limited investment budgets, need to make sure they are on the ball as to what is a good potential investment vs. a standard run of the mill investment.

But like I said earlier, great people!

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 20:42 | 2364210 CaliExpat
CaliExpat's picture

Yeah, you have to shop.  Sometimes their spot prices are above those offered by others.  However, their no pressure attitude and the time they are willing to spend discussing options and products is refreshing.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:10 | 2363651 SilverTree
SilverTree's picture


$30,000 ÷ 16 = $1,875 silver

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:19 | 2363663 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture

I discovered Chris Martenson through Zero Hedge and find both sources to be the most important outlets of news and macro-economic analysis today.  I REALLY ENJOY his 50-minute interviews from subjects like Stockman, Faber, Jansen, Brodsky, Ferguson, and many many more.  The interviews are PACKED with knowledge and data; they hold up on a significant timescale (i.e., year-old interviews are pertinent even today); and they are very entertaining.  The interviews are easily downloadable on MP3 and I enjoy listen to them while mowing the lawn or working out.  I invite ZH readers of all levels of knowledge and expertise to check them out.  Chris has an interview list that keeps growing but is hard to find on his site.  Best way to find is by Googling "Chris Martenson, blog, (and some name of his latest interviewee - e.g, Erik Townsend - a few days ago).

Martenson has an amazing style that is objective (he's a former research scientist), non-political, and incorporates both global news and analysis; and solutions on a personal and even community scale.  He is also VERY positive (glass half full)... never doom and gloom.


Disclaimer: I am not associated with CM or ZH in any way.  Just a HUGE HUGE fan!

(apologies for double post)

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:25 | 2363675 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

The only thing I quibble with him on is global warming and peak oil.  Both are BS, the former a control mechanism, the latter artificial scarcity.

Otherwise, he's great.  4 1/2 stars.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:31 | 2363687 derek_vineyard
derek_vineyard's picture

owning a paper form of gold is banking that you will be able to time the collapse of the fiat and convert to physical when you 'need' to that has any chance of happening

if you go physical........its a life style and attitude change that you have to believe in and protect accordingly

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:34 | 2363693 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture

Low Profile - you are 100% correct about the global warming thing.  Other thing about CM is his lack of faith in human ingenuity to solve our future energy problems.  His dearth of discussion wrt fusion is glaring to me.


Sat, 04/21/2012 - 13:01 | 2363713 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture


The biggest challenge facing humanity today is an oligopoly using government to prevent us from developing the technology needed to advance our species.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 14:17 | 2363810 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Do we need technology to advance our species, or do we need to advance as a species? My view is a little civility can go a long way achieving those ends. Having said that I agree the oligarchs do use government to prevent us from doing lots of things, but they only get away with it because we let them.

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 09:21 | 2364605 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Repeat after me....


These climate change people are not crazy.....not crazy.....not crazy.....not crazy.....not crazy.


Climate Alarmist Calls For Burning Down Skeptics' Homes...


Sat, 04/21/2012 - 15:07 | 2363878 Errol
Errol's picture

Mr Profile, are you serious, or maybe just having fun with us like MDB?

On your planet, is there some huge reserve of near-surface, light, sweet oil we have overlooked?

And are you aware that the evil "oligopoly using government to prevent us from developing technology" spent the equivalent of about a trillion in current dollars trying to make hydrogen fusion economically viable?  Huge amounts of money were spent, huge apparati were built, and still, for my entire lifetime, fusion has been "just 10 years away". 

The trajectory of Western industrial civilization rose from wind, water, and solar (forrest charcoal)  power to coal to petroleum to fission; the next step was to be fusion.  But fusion, despite a huge amount of effort by uninversities and governments the world over, didn't arrive as hoped.  I know you would like to remain in denial, but the sad truth is we will now experience an unending economic contraction, until the arc is complete and we have returned to largely wind, water, and solar (photosynthetic) power sources.

It is comforting to believe that there is some huge conspiracy controlling things...this implies that at least *someone* is in control.  Sorry - all there is are humans acting in their short-term interest, as they were selected long ago to do.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 23:41 | 2364335 False Capital
False Capital's picture

Dude, Thorium -

Thousands of years of reserves should last until fusion gets up and running.


EDIT: Didn't scroll down and see Pufferfish got there before me. Respect where it's due.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 13:17 | 2363721 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture

Somewhat refuting the first part of my prior post (like many on ZH, I should think first before firing off)... as I reflect about it more - and consider his insights in the Crash Course... I actually do NOT think Chris Martenson overstates the global warning issue.  As an atmospheric physicist, I believe that anthropogenic warming is not proven.  And I notice that CM maintains a distance from commenting on the issue too much.  Probably an empirical trait of his objective experience as a research scientist.  He has his opinions on the issue - but the meat of his writing and commentary address more relevant issues. 

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 14:29 | 2363821 Toxicosis
Toxicosis's picture

There's that word you used. "BELIEF".  Scientists have no need for that word.  Whether you 'believe' in something or anything or not is irrelevant.  As a previous research scientist myself, who now employs extensive science in my present career, I have no interest in belief, nor assumption.  Assessment is what we have to display conviction of, assessment of facts most importantly.  Facts can and will oftentimes lead to trends and trendlines, that is what we must pursue.  Not our beliefs.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 16:16 | 2363944 newworldorder
newworldorder's picture

Since "belief" is not a part of your daily exestance, you may indeed be a lucky human being. Most tend to associate belief with religion, but it applies equally well to non religious issues. To that end, please look around you. Most people live their lives of "belief" in many things. In fact it is belief that makes most of us get up in the morning. Otherwise, many would not care about anything other than satisfying their physical needs.

The world therefore functions on belief. It takes a lot of pain for most people to change their various beliefs.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 16:42 | 2363984 Toxicosis
Toxicosis's picture

Not lucky.  Just determined and convicted.  You either choose to accept reality or you don't.  And no, most people's lives revolve around trust not belief.  They trust they're car will start, the food they eat won't harm or poison them.  They trust that the plane won't crash.  It's because these things already exist that they do not have to believe in them or they're track record of capabilities.  Whereas the belief in the supernatural does guide far too many people's lives, because the lack of evidence and thus existence is not to be found.  And what makes most people get up in the morning is the existence of thyroid hormone most importantly.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 19:54 | 2364165 TrulyBelieving
TrulyBelieving's picture

Enjoyed your insightful post.  But i would disagree that the supernatural does exist, though quite likely you personally have not seen the evidence.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 21:45 | 2364269 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

so how do you use dollars without belief of the supernatural??

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 12:02 | 2364799 Bolweevil
Bolweevil's picture

Bam! Comment of the year.

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 08:07 | 2366286 johny2
johny2's picture

US army seems pretty real to me.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 21:47 | 2364271 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture

Toxicosos - I respectfully disagree with the basis of your argument and I think that you are getting bogged down with semantics regarding the word 'belief.'  As an example: overwhelming evidence supporting the hypothesis of the double helix structure of DNA leads me to personally 'believe' that Watson and Crick's hypothesis for the model is the truth.  Prior to their 1953 Nature article, less substanative data caused many scientists to 'believe' that other models were correct.  Sometimes 'reality' is not so black and white.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 19:13 | 2364129 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Right on, current states of the art in fusion / fission are a convenient canard to stop pursuing nuclear in any of its varied incarnations.  Thorium reactors in pebble bed formations look to be self limiting as they require no cooling pumps, water etc..  Some form of nuclear will need to be a large part of the mix or we all better dig some holes for the lazy neighbors and sharpen our axes for the winter.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 22:23 | 2364263 easypoints
easypoints's picture

Fusion, Fission, Thorium, nuclear, solar, wind, hydro, ext... has little to do with the issue of peak oil.

Peak oil is about liquid fuels, plastics, paint, tires, cosmetics, asphalt, and a lot of other things around you that are processed from petroleum. We are unsure if there are enough rare earths left to build many more lithium batteries. China and Chile hold 80% of the world's lithium reserves. Maybe Chile will one day have to be "liberated". If someone can build a mini-fission or thorium reactor that Ford can install, economicly, before TSHTF, well... give me their stock symbol, and I'll sell every ounce I have.

Thorium is great for lighting and refrigeration, but it doesn't do much for the global shipping fleet or a quarter of a billion cars.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 23:16 | 2364328 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

I will not argue that point.  PC feedstocks will last a long, long time if we can cut back significantly on oil for transport.  That's the sticky wicket isn't it..

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 01:17 | 2364368 easypoints
easypoints's picture

Watch the airlines. If any inovations can be made, you will see them there first, the status quo be damned, and to the benefit of all of us. If not, game over.

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 14:14 | 2364931 rehypothecator
rehypothecator's picture

You are mistaken.  With unlimited energy, hydrogen can be made, e.g. by electrolysis of water, and this can be reacted with carbon dioxide to make "synthesis gas," a mixture of carbon monoxide and hydrogen (and water which is removed).  Synthesis gas can be used as a feedstock for the Fischer-Tropsch process, which makes hydrocarbons, including liquid hydrocarbons.  Returning to the point, thorium-derived electricity, or even thorium-derived heat, can make the starting hydrogen.  So, contrary to your statement, there is a nuclear path to combustible transportation fuel.  

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 16:23 | 2365189 easypoints
easypoints's picture

Like batteries, that many hydrogen fuel cells will require materials to produce. Hopefully different new techs working together can come in to play after a monetary re-set.

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 16:22 | 2365190 easypoints
easypoints's picture

Trains are a great way to impliment this tech too, and I think that's what Buffet has in mind.

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 00:14 | 2365972 Axenolith
Axenolith's picture

Hydrocarbons = H and C.  It's all over the freakin' place.  You just have to decide how badly you need HXCX (with maybe some neat other elements to make cool stuff) and what your willing to pay for it.

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 02:56 | 2366065 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

big slick,

that is incorrect.

you haven't read / heard enough of dr. martenson's views in this area to accurately assess his position in this regard, apparently.

CM has a great deal of faith in humanity, our ingenuity, and our technological progress.

wrt fusion, he will tell you himself if you ask him, the issue is one of timing - where are the fusion reactors now? it's not that they won't ever happen, it's that it will take time to develop and roll out, to build out the infrastructure. in the meantime, the dearth of cheap easy oil is upon us, the energy crunch is starting to happen.

we will adjust, we will get by, but in the meduim term, one would be foolish to overlook the coming disruptions to our way of life, or to assume they won't happen because we'll come up with some magical solution at the snap of a fingers when we need it.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:34 | 2363694 centerline
centerline's picture

Correction.  They are not BS in general.  They are BS in the way they are being sold to the public.  Semantics.  Otherwise you draw fire for history and physics lessons.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:56 | 2363709 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

From the junks on my initial comment - I see what you mean.

Surprising that ZHers aren't better informed.   

WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK PROFITS FROM AGW LEGISLATION, MUPPETS?   Follow the money. TPTB aren't concerned about AGW except to the extent they can use the fear over it to extract money from the productive economy.

I always liked this blog on AGW, it's particularly irreverent.

As far as physics is concerned?  I agree.  We should be listening to the physicists on this



Sat, 04/21/2012 - 13:28 | 2363742 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

AGW came along when ManBearPig came up with the idea to tax the weather!

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 14:14 | 2363805 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

I thought he wanted to tax plant food.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 19:28 | 2364148 Marginal Call
Marginal Call's picture

It's a rather elaborate hoax to create a tax don't you think?  They're going to take your money, and they don't even need a reason. 

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 22:13 | 2364290 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Let me tell you how it will be
There's one for you, nineteen for me
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

Should five per cent appear too small
Be thankful I don't take it all
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman

If you drive a car, I'll tax the street,
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat.
If you get too cold I'll tax the heat,
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet.

Don't ask me what I want it for
If you don't want to pay some more
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

Now my advice for those who die
Declare the pennies on your eyes
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
And you're working for no one but me. -- The Beatles


Sat, 04/21/2012 - 18:00 | 2364059 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Batter up! "The upcoming United Nations environmental conference on sustainable development will consider a breathtaking array of carbon taxes, transfers of trillions of dollars from wealthy countries to poor ones, and new spending programs to guarantee that populations around the world are protected from the effects of the very programs the world organization wants to implement, according to stunning UN documents. "

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 10:31 | 2364684 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

AGW can be reduced to slickster politicians figuring out you can tax the weather if you scare enough sheeple.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:37 | 2363698 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

The Russians have done some great research into Abiotic Oil, but the subject seems to be ignored by the MSM......

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 16:16 | 2363946 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

I to kind of believe in it. How else do you for example explain the brasil oil fields that are 2 miles under the sea and under another 1.5 miles of bedrock.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 18:59 | 2364112 Marginal Call
Marginal Call's picture

The same way you explain that Brazil isn't neatly tucked into west Africa anymore and has traveled a 4600 miles at a quarter inch per year.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 20:12 | 2364185 AUD
AUD's picture

So you believe that tectonic forces have moved South America 4600 miles, yet you don't believe that those same forces could be responsible for hydrocarbons in the earth's crust? You probably think diamonds are dinosaur shit too?

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 20:54 | 2364218 Marginal Call
Marginal Call's picture

The process in which diamonds are formed is well known.  Do you know what happens to oil in extreme pressure at extreme depths?

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 21:05 | 2364230 AUD
AUD's picture

Do you?

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 03:29 | 2364415 Likstane
Likstane's picture

the process in which diamonds form is well known? 


Sun, 04/22/2012 - 08:30 | 2364539 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

damn straight....superman takes a lump of coal and squeezes it until its a diamond....saw it with my own eyes....

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 01:56 | 2364381 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Wrong direction.  You have to have subduction to create oil according to standard theory.

Note that I haven't heard anything about any deep Brazillian fields.

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 14:29 | 2364960 akak
akak's picture

Actually, subduction would tend to carry any petroleum, or proto-petroleum, into the lower crust and upper mantle where it would be decomposed and destroyed.  I believe that most if not almost all major petroleum deposits were created by sedimentary deposition (and usually subsequent intraplate subsidence), NOT subduction, which occurs at plate boundaries, areas which are not generally known for their petroleum reserves .

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 00:07 | 2365965 Axenolith
Axenolith's picture

Ah, there's been quite a bit of that along the western seaboard over the last 15+ or so million years (<--- sidebar, this is why geology rocks, engineers might be +-0.0001, but we get to be astute even with "give or take a few million years") and last I heard California was rotten with it both on and off shore even after exploiting it for 100 years...

Granted, we don't see it further north, but that may just mean we need to see the end of the effusive leaks (volcanoes/hydrothermal vents etc...) and the final emplacement of the fractionally melted granitic batholiths to shape some sedimentary traps for that mantle derived goodnes ;-).  Go long Washington State oil Co in the year 23,000,032 AD. ('Course, we'll all be peaceful beings of pure energy then...)

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 21:57 | 2364278 Haole
Haole's picture

They have done far more than research since the fifties and aren't the world's #1 oil producer by accident.

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 21:18 | 2365754 Marc_W
Marc_W's picture

Abiotic oil theory is the only theory that doesn't sound like nonsense to me.  When people tell me these billions of barrels of oil we pull out of the Earth world wide were created from decaying organic matter my bull shit alarm goes off, like when I was in church as a child.


And the Russians don't buy it either.  And they are finding oil in places that Western theories say it couldn't possibly be.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 13:02 | 2363714 shutdown
shutdown's picture



CM is absolutely brilliant on peak oil. Supurb analysis, refreshingly clear delivery masterfully linking the historically unprecedented growth in the economy and population with the growth in oil production ... a growth that ended around 2005.

We're now on an undulating plateau, propped up by tar sands, fracking and, lastly, converting food crops to fuel. But when there's no more crops to convert and no more land to lay waste the steep decline will occur and then the fun starts. Hang on. 

Watch his Crash Course video series, especially 17C.



Sat, 04/21/2012 - 22:00 | 2364282 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture

Eric Jansen of iTulip introduces a great term in his Martenson interview: 'Peak Cheap Oil'

An importact discernment.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 15:04 | 2363873 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

LowProfile              2363675

The only thing I quibble with him on is global warming and peak oil.  Both are BS, the former a control mechanism, the latter artificial scarcity.



Actually, they are both control mechanisms.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 16:13 | 2363942 r101958
r101958's picture

Of course! That is because oil is an infinite resource. Never ending supply available. Supply will always increase because, because we need it to increase.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 19:20 | 2364136 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

If oil is a finite resource which I happen to agree with there is this to consider. Most scientiists agree that photosynthesis started approximately 2.5-3.5 billion years ago.  If plants in all their varied forms are in essence oil, that is a hell of a lot of ferns even accounting for the snowball period.  There may be lots and lots of oil to find yet, now economically viable is another question, who knows what the future brings. 

However, AGW, for cripes sakes this is ZH follow the MONEY!!

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 01:02 | 2364054 easypoints
easypoints's picture

Where in the main stream press do you constantly hear about peak oil, and the full list of effects it would have, particularly on agriculture/food distribution? In the 70's, oil shortage talk was everywhere. Now, it's all about speculators and price. If I ever saw it in the New York Times or CNBC, I would agree with you, but it's just not as common as you're making it out to be. Everyone and their mother knows about Global Warming, which is comparatively harmless. The scale of the peak oil issue, true or not, is barely know by the masses.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 20:45 | 2364212 CaliExpat
CaliExpat's picture

Too true.  Reading the regulations you discover they do nothing more than transfer wealth and allow producers to pay takers for that priviledge.  I welcome the awareness of that fact, but it leaves me questioning my role.... I will stop before I rant.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:58 | 2363711 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

Perhaps I should have been more specific:  AGW, or Anthropogenic Global Warming is utter bullshit.

GW, or Global Warming, is a natural phenomenon, normally followed by global cooling, then more warming, then coooling, etc.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 13:28 | 2363738 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture

100% correct!   10,000 years ago the Northern part of the US was under a mile thick glacier of ice.  The warming of the earth and the melting of this polar ice was NOT due to 20 years of driving SUVs or even 150 years of emissions from the industrial revolution.

(BTW - what's with all the negative arrows on the truth regarding the man-made global warming scam??  I would think ZH readers were better informed)

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 14:32 | 2363829 Toxicosis
Toxicosis's picture

Perhaps big slick you should take on the scientists who do this work every day.  Perhaps we can set up a podium for you, and an opened ended debate can occur on both sides.  Here, contact these guys and set it up.  Might as well put your money and reputation where YOUR mouth is.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 15:02 | 2363868 jwoop66
jwoop66's picture

I thought your link was BS until I saw that it is a sight "by climate scientists about climate science". 

Well, jeez, that must be the truth...

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 16:45 | 2363989 Toxicosis
Toxicosis's picture

Truth is elicited only by assessment of facts.  I concluded that he is issuing a backhanded challenge to climate scientists who accept evidence for global warming.  What could be the harm in defending your understanding in a formal arena?

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 02:14 | 2364393 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

Becuase arguing about something that can't be proven until it happens is a waste of time. 

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 15:04 | 2363872 Spacemoose
Spacemoose's picture

"I know that most men - not only those considered clever, but even those who are clever and capable of understanding the most difficult scientific, mathematical or philosophical problems - can seldom discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed, perhaps with much difficulty - conclusions of which they are proud, which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their lives."

Leo Tolstoy 1898


Sat, 04/21/2012 - 15:21 | 2363884 Spacemoose
Spacemoose's picture

realclimate rarely permits debate.  i, like everyone else, likes to think of themselves as open minded and rational.  law school trained me to look at both sides of any issue and i've got a pretty solid foundation in math and science.  i've looked at the global warming issue extensively from both sides and i am pretty well convinced of three things:

1.  the actual measurements, as opposed to the models, seem to support the skeptics' position that global warming will be in the range of less than 2 degrees C for each doubling of co2.

2.  the costs of adaptation to warming would be much less than the costs of mitigation.

3.  the extreme predictions have a very very remote possiblity of occurring. 

all in all, the dangers of warming have been grossly overstated.  by the way, when i practiced law, i noticed that it didn't take an organized conspiracy for all all PI attorneys to reach the conclusion (a conclusion which they sincerely believed) that allowing unrestricted punative damages awards presented an overall benefit to society.  something else was driving them to that conclusion.  i wonder what it was?



Sun, 04/22/2012 - 03:42 | 2364419 Likstane
Likstane's picture

yeah...but do you got gold?

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 23:46 | 2365953 Axenolith
Axenolith's picture

Mitigation also allows more room for CONTROL.  Control of movement, lifestyle, etc...

The easiest ""quick and dirty" means of assessing AGW claims is a trip to the Bristlecone pine forest in the White-Inyo range.  Dead bristlecones are scattered up to approximately 1500 feet above living ones, it was warmer when they grew up there, and they died because it cooled.  Baby bristlecones are starting to appear back into the lower parts of those areas, evidencing some mild warming, but the conclusion from the growth cycle is that the climate is cyclic outside of the immediate influence of mans meager 200 years of emissions.

The business side of the "environmental movement" is in constant flux due to people being able to stop and remediate negative practices faster than the businesses created to "solve" them can change. This has (IMO) led to the creation or expansion of "problems" so the businesses can keep solving them.  Fuel hydrocarbons mitigate in the subsurface faster than you thought?  Enter MTBE.  Bugs evolve to eat it faster than expected?  off to alcohol.  Asbestos getting cleaned up and fading from supply chain?  Next up will be fiberglass.  Need to find a way to regulate naturally occuring NON FRIABLE asbestos in soil being graded?  Specify a testing method that grinds the sample, etc...

If under any circumstance an environmental "issue" could be reasonable presumed to remediate itself and not be an imminant threat to critters or people, X million dollars will still be spent on it to appear to be "doing something"...

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 19:24 | 2364140 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

I'll see your which is a group of shills and raise you a Dr. Roy Spencer..

Don't force me to reraise with 30,000 real scientists...  I may even smack you with 50 astronauts.. ha

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 14:36 | 2363835 Whiner
Whiner's picture

Men are hopelessly religious. They are created to worship something and will. Wherever you travel you will see this. Its basically the worship of the earth or Something which created the earth. AGW adherents are earth worshippers, living on that higher moral plane of protecting Mother Earth. Life has no higher purpose for them. As to the receding glaciers, have you eliminated the huge gasuous farts of the wooly mammoths and dinasours? Thats a lot of continous CO2.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 15:24 | 2363892 Errol
Errol's picture

Men are hopelessly emotional.  They really get their back up when you tell them their something-for-nothing (fossil fuels) are causing a problem that will force them to suck less of it.  I see much emotion and know-for-sure on this subject from folks who are not climate scientists (or any kind of scientist at all, for that matter).

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 19:27 | 2364145 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Shhh, next you'll say there was a little ice age and people were skating on the Thames and Greenland was farmed.  Are you trying to blow up the "scientists" head..  Those are facts man, don't use those...

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 21:29 | 2364244 Haole
Haole's picture

I concur Sir.

Global warming was real, as was global cooling and back again cyclicly (and respective of solar activity or lack thereof) for how many billions of years now?  ;)

AGW is a religion and an agenda, depending on the tool(s) perpetrating/disseminating it.

There has been no warming in over a decade but people are still so inundated with continual propaganda and lies that they still believe it somehow.

Interesting that Keiser and his gal Stacey have been so indoctrinated into this religion that they have supported calls to burn down the houses of "AGW deniers" and those who counter this idiocy with paleoclimatological and recent data, real science, etc., etc., etc.  

These two can proficiently dismantle the monetary and financial system along with all it's manipulation and criminality yet refuse to acknowledge real historical data and real science and real blatant manipulation of such to suit their needs/agenda?

After reading too many "AGW denier" threads there, and most notably the one stating burning AGW deniers' houses down is "not a bad idea", they have zero credibility with me personally and just may be suffering from psychosis. 

I am absolutely fucking astounded that obviously smart people like these can be sucked into this lie and hold it to be true.  Either that or there is an obvious and insidious agenda behind it.  More likely the latter but that is merely speculation.

I'm also of the opinion that this massive AGW scam is being used to yet further divide the common man in one more way, to weaken us all further and render us more malleable and manageable in the belief that it's our fault.

The planet's fucked, it's getting worse and it's your fault." - Deek Jackson

Junk away, regards and thanks.


Sat, 04/21/2012 - 21:29 | 2364250 easypoints
easypoints's picture

I can't dissagree that global warming is deduced from manipulated data, opinions, and special interest. Peak oil, unlike global warming, is an absolute certainty on a "long enough time line". Twenty years, ten years, now... that can be debated, and is dependent on many factors. Not it's eventuality.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 21:42 | 2364264 Haole
Haole's picture

Population growth, over-consumption, controlled/manipulated supply and price and an increasing international dependance/demand (among other reasons) are some contributors to current perceived validity of "peak oil" theory.  We are not running out of oil by any stretch of the imagination.  I submit other factors besides oil will whack humanity in the head with a carrying capacity tire iron long before we physically run low on oil.

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 01:29 | 2364367 easypoints
easypoints's picture

Peak oil is not running out of oil. It's the half way point, where it's never easier to extract than it was the day before. The points you listed illustrate the tensions this causes. Most other factors that "hit us in the head", be it financial, political, or environmental, are related to this. Oil, in my opinion, is still dirt cheap... considering a barrel does the amount of work in jules that a human can do in a year.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 13:58 | 2363788 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

One can only hope.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 23:36 | 2364334 grid-b-gone
grid-b-gone's picture

As in Pearl Buck's The Good Earth, just a few coins are offered for land accumulated over half a lifetime ... and the offer is seriously considered.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:31 | 2363686 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture

SilverTree - I AGREE... 3M seems like a terribly low estimate for bid on gold with no offer.   Curious as to your calculation as to 30M.  Not doubting it... just curious.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:44 | 2363701 SilverTree
SilverTree's picture

The result of the 1968 failure of the London Gold Pool to suppress gold was an appreciation of the gold exchange rate from $35 to $850 per ounce. A similar percentage today would carry gold to >$30,000 per ounce. Who knows, when it all falls apart (WWIII) your guess is as good as mine.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 13:41 | 2363765 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture

Thanks for expounding.  My yellow bullion thanks you too.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 14:21 | 2363814 SilverTree
SilverTree's picture

As a matter of principle I have no problem with $30,000 a troy ounce gold as it would be a 20 bagger more or less from where we are today. Since silver bullion is probably 5 times rarer than gold due to industrial consumption the take over price for silver ought to be 5 times the gold price. There is nothing magical about silver that makes it cheaper than gold.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 15:18 | 2363886 Errol
Errol's picture

Silver Tree - as it turns out, the ancients were surprisingly astute by valuing silver at about 1/15 the value of gold: it turns out there is about 15 times more silver than gold in the Earth's crust.  That said, the above-ground ratio is probably lower due to gold having been largely hoarded and silver largely lost due to industrial use and wear of circulating coins.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 14:24 | 2363815 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

I disagree re: ETF being paper that will blow up. I think SLV will reflect the rising prices of silver, and i do know who's behind SLV and i also know that said banking institution's short positions are about to go very long their very own SLV = silver goes over $50.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:08 | 2363640 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

The real suppression of the metals started in 1988.  That’s when the leasing game started and was invented by J.P. Morgan.

Ironic this is the year after the President's Working Group was initiated.

The Executive Order of the President's Working Group on Financial Markets:

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 13:57 | 2363786 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

It's funny how a "crisis in the markets" ushers in major change. It's rather convenient how that happens.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:05 | 2363642 CuriousPasserby
CuriousPasserby's picture

Hey, are many people other than Kyle Bass saving nickels? If they can later be sold for even 7 por 8 cents that's 40-60 percent return, or 20-30 years bank interest.

They just take up so much space. But I put them in my gun safes that hold the silver and gold so no one can possibly move them. One $100 box weighs 20+ pounds so a few thousand dollars woth makes the safes unmoveable.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:06 | 2363645 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

No, I am playing the middle of the precious metals and buying silver.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:08 | 2363647 SilverTree
SilverTree's picture

"playing the middle" ? what does this mean?

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:21 | 2363668 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture


Silver $30...


I would rather buy silver, that which is priced inbetween gold, and nickle/copper

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:26 | 2363680 SilverTree
SilverTree's picture

I see. Yeah, I am all-in silver. And when the silver/gold ratio collapses (15-20:1) I will convert my silver for gold.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 16:39 | 2363981 dumpster
dumpster's picture

silver tree

convert silver to gold ..

prey tell where will you find the gold . as governments and banks will gobble up the excess .

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 21:55 | 2364275 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture


Sun, 04/22/2012 - 02:00 | 2364384 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Lots of broke former middle and upper middle class people are already selling their gold for pennies on the dollar.  Easy enough to get in on that action, as it is only going to get worse.

Further, any nation that has failed to stock up on silver as a strategic resource (which seems to be all of them) will happily pay a gigantic premium in terms of gold to prevent their industrial production from shutting down for lack of a few cents worth of silver per item (maybe a few bucks worth of silver when the panic reaches full saturation).

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:21 | 2363667 WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

I "play" all metals, from Cu (wheat-back pennies) to Pt.
Balanced portfolio, only the % I want to keep (as close to 100 as possible).

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 23:55 | 2364341 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1

Diversification metals, I agree 100%.

Cu, Ni, Pb, Ag, Pt, Pd and Au.  Most $-value in Au.

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 07:20 | 2364488 Praetor
Praetor's picture

What, no U235? ;-)

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:07 | 2363646 SilverTree
SilverTree's picture

I shy-away from war nickles but they frequently go for outstanding exchange rates.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:12 | 2363653 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Nickles bitchez!...

For the poor man (late to the game in Ag & Au)... It's a solid (no lose play)... It's still fairly easy to do, but even as we speak it's not as "under the radar" as it used to be... A couple of years ago I could just go to any bank and ask any teller for $20 to $50 of nickle rolls at a time... Nowadays ~ if you're not a customer of the bank, most will decline, and even if you are a customer, you practically have to explain yourself...

I've concocted some good stories which I use with a local branch... I say that I'm a volunteer at a retirement home & we play a BINGO & CASINO night once a week (which is why I need them regularly)... I think if I mentioned Kyle Bass & the banking system in general, I'd probably get escorted out...

Mostly only supermarkets & liquor stores will even give you a $2 roll (in your change) if you ask... Hardly any other retail outlets even have change in the drawers (& frankly, it's only at liquor stores & supermarkets that I buy anything anyway)...

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:24 | 2363672 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

There are some great articles on pennies vs. nickels at Survival Blog-dot-com; yes, the same one the FBI or DHS was spying on, but now they are using a server in Europe.

Kepp Stackin' !

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 13:20 | 2363730 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

That's a great site,part of my daily read. I started stacking nickels after reading about it there.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:13 | 2363655 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Same here. And, I'm still finding the silver war nickels; not as often as years gone by, but they are still out there!

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:20 | 2363666 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture


I still find them, but not as often as before... As mentioned above, a couple of years ago, I could find 2 or 3 in every, about, $40 worth of exchange (at a bank)... Lately, more than 2/3rds of the bank rolls I get are freshly minted coins (2010/2011/etc.)...

Retail (liquor stores & grocery stores), still seem like the best way to find some oldies (but it means you're BUYING something ~ not just trading fiat paper for coins)...

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:33 | 2363689 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Thanks. My CO in my state guard unit was getting rolls of dimes and quaters in the past, and finding some 1964 and older silver, but now he's given it up. We are acquiring "culls" from a local shop. The ex-military owners are selling to us at bullion price.  I suggest (if you have not done so already), finding a local shop. There are some guys at the local flea market (swap meet) doing the same.

Keep Stackin' !

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:48 | 2363705 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

That's probably a solid suggestion... My only issue (as, probably, with most people) is TIME... I'm not going to run all over hell & gone trying to exchange fiat for nickles... All I try to do is incorporate the discipline into a normal routine... I rarely even use the bank for anything (except to keep a minimal account balance as a customer so that I can partake of services [like exchanging fiat for nickles])... When I'm bopping around, if I happen to be passing by the bank branch, I stop in and get more nickles... I toss them all into 5 gallon paint buckets... It's a lot of weight at this point...

Frankly ~ I don't know if I'll ever come to needing them or using them in my lifetime... But I'll leave my ancestors something of possible value... One day they'll think their crazy old uncle francis_sawyer maybe hadn't lost all his marbles after all...

I wish I'd had a crazy uncle francis_sawyer (who lived in 1962-1964), that had the same with Roosevelt dimes & Washington quarters...

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 13:38 | 2363762 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Find a penny sorter on Ebay to differentiate copper pennies from normal ones.  You can often use it for dimes and nickels too(depends on model).  I bought a used bulk coin sorter off Ebay and a local convenience store owner put it behind his register. People often bring him coins now and he hated counting/sorting them, so now he just dumps them in the counter and gives them full value. I buy them from him at a 3% discount, sort and roll them after checking for coppers and silvers.  He doesn't have the hassle of dealing with the coins. I almost bought a couple of old Coinstar machines which I was going to do the same sort of thing with but I ended up not making it to the auction.  I get a couple pounds of copper a month and usually 8-10 silvers(mainly quarters). 

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 20:26 | 2364194 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

Just a suggestion...take your copper penny profits and buy copper in a useful form. Copper plumbing pipe or Romex house wire come to mind.

If all goes to hell, tradesmen and homeowners will pay a premium to stop the leaks or get the lights back on.

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 23:01 | 2365902 Axenolith
Axenolith's picture

Before it got really well known, you could "shotgun" bid a pile of auctions about 10-20% under spot (including shipping fees) for rolls of silver coins on eBay and usually score at least 25% of your bids.  I got lots of silver dimes that way.  Got an oversize roll (like 57 IIRC) of Seated Lib quarters on one, and sold the duplicates and lamer ones for nearly what I paid for the whole mass the following week.

I doubt that works well these days...

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 15:30 | 2363899 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

I have a few K worth. Why not? No real reason to store in a safe - your average thief isn't going to have time to haul off half a ton of nickels.

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 06:15 | 2364464 Chain Gun Smoke
Chain Gun Smoke's picture

haha. Your gun safe is unmoveable because of the weight of nickels? My gun safe is unmoveable because of the weight of the safe... and the weight of the GUNS. Seriously, I don't know the dimensions of a $100 box of nickels, but how do you have room? An AR will beat your nickels value per pound.

What the fuck do you think you will buy with a $100 box of nickels? Who is going to take that shit when fiat is worthless?

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 09:08 | 2364588 prole
prole's picture

In the event of a currency reset, debasement, or rampant inflation. Possible Zimbabwe scenario for "The Zimbabwe of the New World" or "America"

~US Dollar continually debased to a value of ~0~

~Dollar value reset with several new Zeros Added

~Paper money eliminated, banned, by fiat-- money made electronic only

In these possible scenarios, regardless of how valueless paper currency becomes ala Zimbabwe, the copper and nickel content of Nickels will remain. Absent a shutting down of all factories and Mad Max scenario, the value of the copper and nickel will remain unchanged.


A box of strawberries has value, in my opinion.

A coupon good for one box of strawberries, from a store which is bankrupt and closed, has no value, in my opinion

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 22:53 | 2365890 Axenolith
Axenolith's picture

Adendum to that, everywhere fiat begins to hyperinflate, the first thing to disappear is the change.  On the bright side, if aluminum cans start going for $5/apiece, the freakin' countryside will get cleaned up pretty damn quick. 

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 13:54 | 2364906 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

There's some truth in the above: when the shit hits the fan your gun, ounce for ounce, will have quite a bit more barganing power than an ouce of silver or gold. When the shit hits the fan you can't eat iPads, silver and gold, but your gun can certainly secure some calories for you.

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 22:45 | 2365871 Axenolith
Axenolith's picture

You may think it's unmovable as it sits, but I personally know of one close to a ton, pallet jacked from it's SECOND floor securings and then humped out the window to drop to the ground, to be hauled off in a pickup truck.

The one defense there is to put lots of reloading powder in there too, at the points most likely to be torched through, so if you can't have them, they can't either ;-)

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:10 | 2363650 HamyWanger
HamyWanger's picture

An honest question to goldbugs: when will the inflation/hyperinflation happen? 

It was already supposed to start two years ago...

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:14 | 2363654 SilverTree
SilverTree's picture

It is happening. Simply roll the gold or silver chart back a few years and you will see a muli-year bonner. But remember The paper side is RIGGED. 

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 09:26 | 2364611 prole
prole's picture

An honest question to goldbugs: when will the inflation/hyperinflation happen? 

It was already supposed to start two years ago...

We are living in it bitch, RFN

Have you put gas in your Volt lately? I personally remember when gas was ONE Dollar per gallon, now It is FOUR Dollars per gallon and ramping ?? UP

You must be dining free on your SNAP card food stamps, because if you paid for your own food you would notice that food items seem to have doubled and tripled in recent years. Beef, Fish, Tomato, Avocado: Now you have to be a millionaire to afford a stupid avocado?

Not to mention the cost of being a slave: Various fees and fines for our slave badges (Drivers licenses and license plates) taxes, yellow light cameras at every light .. prices all going UP  UP UP.

Rent, electricity, taxes ... Could you please explain to me oh weak troll how prices going UP UP UP are not inflation? $800 (and your career but that's a different subject) for a fat ugly MILF in Colombia.  When we go to flat-out wheelbarrow full of dollars for a loaf af bread will you be mocking goldbugs asking them where inflation is? It's right in front of your face dumb-ass

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 14:03 | 2364916 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

How naive! All sides are rigged man! The paper side simply allows the levearage for the rigging man! I'm not sure what middle-earth bartering universe you live in, but right now (pre-apocalypse) paper controls commodities; ergo, SLV does manipulate prices down but SLV also rises, even when trolls and sharp investors buy up the physical......

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:14 | 2363658 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Answer: When YOU, 'Hamy Wanger', are LEAST prepared for it... Good luck & good riddance... Enjoy your catfood dinner & good luck at squirrel hunting...

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 16:04 | 2363933 toady
toady's picture

You just made me flash on the movie 'district 9' with the cat food ....

And I have my squirrel skull press on standby....

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 13:20 | 2363729 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

Asking unanswerable questions eh? :P

How long is a piece of string?

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 16:34 | 2363964 akak
akak's picture

What does a piano concerto taste like?

How big is yellow?

What does quartz think of global warming?

Where was Barrack Obamao really born, and why does nobody remember him from his childhood and university years?

Mysteries for the ages

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 13:34 | 2363751 Jack Sheet
Jack Sheet's picture

July 3rd 2013, at 4 :16 in the afternoon.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 15:03 | 2363871 donsluck
donsluck's picture

I think you might be off by a couple of minutes :)

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 20:59 | 2364224 BlackChicken
BlackChicken's picture


Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:11 | 2363652 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

"No offer" also means no offer. That krugerrand is nice and shiny, but in the end it's worth what someone will trade you for it. If you need dollars to settle something so-denominated, the PM's will be slightly less liquid than cash.

On the other hand, gold will get you through times of no money, better than money...

Bottom line, the dollar- or euro- denominated price of gold may soon be a meaningless number. Possibly pretty close to a meaningless number right now.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 12:50 | 2363706 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Silver will carry you through the crisis with buying power. Gold will carry your wealth through the crisis.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 13:34 | 2363750 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

@Dr. E.

Agree 100% with the thesis on Ag & Au... (be, as they may, at the bottom of the lake from the ill fated canoe trips)...

Interesting things with nickles though is that you'd need several Brink's trucks to carry away anything evenly closely correlated with the single Au ounce vs. the face value of nickles...

So it begs the question... Are you running?... Or are you confident where you are? (soda speak)... I think Kyle Bass having a 40 million nickles on a heavily armed compound speaks volumes...

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 13:53 | 2363780 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I collect nickels too. Not to would be silly. It's like leaving free money at the bottom of the river.... So to speak.

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