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Chris Martenson Interviews Robert Mish: Front-Line Evidence That We are Nowhere Near a Gold Bubble

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Submitted by Chris Martenson

Robert Mish: Front-Line Evidence That We are Nowhere Near a Gold Bubble

Robert Mish has been a precious metals dealer for nearly 50 years and knows what a gold bubble mania looks like. We are nowhere near that stage, in his opinion.

Instead, he sees a US populace largely unappreciative of holding precious metal as a store of wealth, and engaged in a slow process of dis-hording their gold and silver to eager foreign buyers who are more than happy to take the bullion back to their shores.

In terms of where we are on the gold mania spectrum, he sees us at a "2" out of 10.

But he foresees a very rude awakening ahead as the populace eventually wakes up to the increasing damage our over-debted global economy is doing to the purchasing power of world currencies. Because when the general investor finally realizes the protection the precious metals offer against currency debasement, much of the retail supply will already be out of the system in very tight hands, and largely overseas.

Moreover, when supply gets tight, there will be more challenges to obtaining physical bullion during a buying mania than there were during the last one in 1980. There are many fewer local sources to exchange bullion these days as much of that business is now transacted by online vendors dependent mail delivery to ship product, which are more vulnerable to supply chain disruptions.

And be sure you're aware of how the form you hold your bullion in will affect the price you get during a buying frenzy, when refining capacity is overwhelmed. You may find you gold or silver sells at a hefty discount because it's not in a preferred format for trade.

On What A True Gold Mania Looks Like

The phone calls were ringing so much we could not answer them. We had to just put all our lines on hold so we could service the customers, and our own customers we wanted to service first.

 

We world come in to open at nine in the morning and there would already be a line out the door and down the block. Sometimes the line was mostly buyers, sometimes there were sellers. We would run out of metal. We would run out of anything. And we would have to divide the line into two lines. We would take the sellers in first, get some product, and sort it before the buyers were let in.

 

And people were not very discriminating then; they were panicking. By the time it peaked in January 1980, there were people out there who did not even understand free market economics or precious metal economics, they were just buying because it was fashionable or because it was going up forever. Those are more the makings of a bubble, today most people are coming in to sell.

On Today's Typical Seller

The typical seller today is really the opposite of who they were 30, 40, 50 years ago. People used to save either through a bank account to keeping some coins around, putting away silver dollars when they came back from Reno or Lake Tahoe. They would be buying some interesting furniture or jewelry and then they had income in excess of their expenses. Today, so many households are stressed having expenses greater than their income or servicing a lot of debt that they are starting to sell the things, the heirlooms that they so prized before. So we are seeing people sell their Rolex they do not want anymore or cannot afford to keep, their old jewelry, their parent’s jewelry and belongings that they inherited. The coins they collected when they were a kid, it is sad in a way because what we are seeing is the dis-hoarding of a culture.

On Today's Typical Buyer

Well in the United States, the typical buyer is perhaps someone who has taken the Crash Course and has studied what is happening to our nation and understands that they have to protect themselves from the coming inflation and social ramifications of that inflation and the debt burdened economy. Big money is buying but for every one buyer there has got to be five sellers here and I am sure that is similar among my colleagues around the country, maybe even more so. Because over here we are in a wealthier area and I still have more sellers than buyers.

A lot of it is going overseas. A lot of the coins that came to America over the decades, over the generations, either through the fact that we had the money to buy them or through immigration or through the spoils of war, it is all going back now to the home countries. Especially if it is a home country, where their economies are rising and the people are saving rather than spending.

 

Just last night we had two visitors from China, colleagues of mine in Shanghai, they flew here just to see me, and they flew back the next morning. They cannot get enough coins in China; they are buying everything back that came here when the people in China could not buy their own coins. Next weekend I have more visitors coming. Coin shows, which have been all over America, are now appearing all over the world. There are now major coin shows in gathering marts in Singapore, Tokyo, Beijing, Hong Kong. It used to be once a year, now it is three, four times a year. Big auctions that used to be held in the United States are now organizing in Hong Kong and other countries.

So we are seeing a movement back in the opposite direction and it is sad [for the US market]

On The Importance of Physical Form

Chris Martenson: So you mentioned refinery problems. What is a refinery problem?

Robert Mish: A refinery problem is where dealer buys the scrap gold and the scrap silver and his refiner cannot get it processed for several weeks or months. And that squeezes his cash flow so he has to pay less and less to the public.

Chris Martenson: So if I walk in with a bag of junk silver, it is 90% silver, it has always been trading well. But if we are in a real heyday, your refiner says "I am backed up 11 weeks. I can take that in 11 weeks". Meanwhile prices are gyrating. You are going to look at me and say what?

Robert Mish: I am going to say "Mr. Martenson, I wish you had come in here with pure tradable silver or something that is exchange ready."

The marketplace determines the choice for medium of exchange. If you have silver in any other form; if it is in odd form such as coins, broken spoons and knives, or whatever and I have to have it refined in order to get it back in a marketable form, it is going to suffer a discount. And that discount is going to be greater the longer it takes to turn that around.

Chris Martenson: So anything that has to cycle through a refinery has that refinery risk. What was the discount that got applied at its most maximum in the 1980’s?

Robert Mish: In the 1980s, when we were about eight weeks backlogged and not everyone even had a refiner relationship and had to rely on other dealers who did, it got to about a 30% discount for having the wrong form of silver versus the right form.

Click the play button below to listen to Chris' interview with Robert Mish (runtime 28m:19s):

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Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:01 | 2241836 akak
akak's picture

Gold will not, and can not, be in a bubble until the fiat bubble finally pops.

And even if the chances of a putative 'gold bubble' occurring were the same as those of the fiat bubble of which we are currently in the midst (i.e., a certainty), which bubble poses the greater risk to one's savings, or to the financial health of the entire world?

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:01 | 2241855 GetSome
GetSome's picture

On average, excluding one's home, hard assets are still such a small part of most portfolios.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:10 | 2241872 akak
akak's picture

True, and that is most certainly NOT by coincidence either.

The anti-gold, pro-fiat, pro-Establishment brainwashing of the American boiled frogs has been most effective in that regard --- what others in the rest of the world consider common sense, or a historical given, is ridiculed by most Amerisheep as "kooky" and "Armageddonist".

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:21 | 2241895 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

The anti-gold, pro-fiat, pro-Establishment brainwashing of the American boiled frogs is thanks to the MSM (main stream media). They're responsible for that lie and many other "brainwashings" of the American sheeple - like being slobbering sycophants for the miserable excuse of a president we've been stuck with!

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:34 | 2241918 Spirit Of Truth
Spirit Of Truth's picture

Obviously the point I've been trying to make is that the lies go much deeper than what Ben Bernanke and Barack Obama represent.  The "bubble" in beliefs and expectations is with regard to what is valued, which is money, stocks, gold and Mammon in general.  What's not valued, as my standing well represents, is the truth.  People are placing all their hope and faith in absurd falsehoods.  Hence, an historic upset of collective beliefs and expectations is inevitable....and this is precisely what the long-term cycles indicate.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:47 | 2242265 Pinch
Pinch's picture

Remember that the Republicans are also part of the anti-gold establishment. Since I speak for Republicans, I should know.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 23:00 | 2242293 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 23:05 | 2242308 trav7777
trav7777's picture

this mania thing seemed to describe people buying the new iPad

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 09:53 | 2242924 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

WOW a gold dealer advocating buying gold who would have thunk it?

He is as wrong as the day is long.

Instead of asking if I wanted starch in my collars the dry cleaners asked if I wanted some gold or silver with that.

Had people posting here they maxxed out credit cards to buy precious metals six months ago that equals mania but it sure is fun to pretend somewhere out there someone hasn't bought in yet.

Oh but gold can't crack until the fiat does, funny how last wave of margin calls gold cracked plenty to pay margin calls in fiat. 

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 11:09 | 2243009 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

Missed the boat huh?

 

Just buy somemore AAPL.....it's bubble proof.

 

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 12:05 | 2243079 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

...last wave of margin calls gold cracked plenty...

Precisely.   Those who had an actual store of value had to tap it to pay expenses.   Just as described in the article.  Whether those expenses be margin calls or putting food on the table, the overall construct is the same.    Get it?  Store of value.   That's what the PMs are.   Poor planning or misfortune can provide the impetus to tap that store, but the ultimate "value" is in the world-wide recognition of same.  If any of my sentences were too long for you to follow, let me know and I'll clarify in simpler terms.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 13:19 | 2243176 Think for yourself
Think for yourself's picture

This post is a proxy to provide arrows to parent (who can not be modded because of starting his post with an italic line)

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 16:20 | 2243540 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Hey, thanks.   I guess I didn't get that memo.

Sun, 03/11/2012 - 17:45 | 2245689 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

Actually you don't get it.

Relative value.

There is no reason why from this moment forward gold should provide any greater relative value over any other asset class.

and since the retail equity investor has not participated in the recent stock rally,

mainly because they are neck deep in gold and silver.

there is actually future demand.

Given you are a fanatic, not only can't you get it, no matter how simple it is,

but you can fanatically underperform then blame manipulators like the rest.

There is currently no squarer trade on earth, don't believe me? Find folks who are advocating shorting metals they are as common as nuclear skittles shitting unicorns.

Wouldn't know a mania if it jumped up and gave you the mnia but this time is different just understand value and it is easy to see.

 

Sun, 03/11/2012 - 20:37 | 2246063 Think for yourself
Think for yourself's picture

Gave you a green because you're starting to discuss like a normal human being, not because I agree. There might be a gold mania right now, but it lays in the small smart money discovering the inverse bubble nature of precious metals at the moment. It's obvious from the current global situation that we will need a system that strikes a better balance with PMs' role as stabilizing agent/store of value, and it's quite evident that the balance lies on the side of a greater role, not a lesser.

Once a new equilibrium has been established around the role of PMs as a stabilizing foundation to the system, a more reasonable value will be established, and only from that point will it be possible to even start entering bubble territory.

In short, I contradict your fear of already being in a bubble with simple fundamentals. This is also why many people would not care whether gold is at $1000 or $2000, as long as the fundamentals don't change, keep stacking. That's not bein a fanatic, that's understanding the situation we're in.

Mon, 03/12/2012 - 10:56 | 2247160 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

"and since the retail equity investor has not participated in the recent stock rally, mainly because they are neck deep in gold and silver."

Say, what?   If your conclusions are based on this then you might have some rethinking to do.

Retail investors are neck deep in gold?   What sort of gold?  You mean ETFs?  

That's not gold.

I'm not a fanatic.   I've been at this for about 20 years, both as an accumulator and coin dealer.

To use an old but pertinent cliche:  It is what it is.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:59 | 2242296 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

Republicans yes... Conservatives NO! Many folks have no idea there is a difference between Republicans and Conservatives... a big difference

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 02:54 | 2242703 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

Too bad there's God so damned little of you in either party anymore.

Y'all seriously fucked up, ya should have listened to that OTHER Barry.

BARRY GOLDWATER.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 12:49 | 2243132 Hobbleknee
Hobbleknee's picture

...and then there are social conservatives and fiscal conservatives.

Sun, 03/11/2012 - 00:42 | 2244257 lindenlee
lindenlee's picture

Social conservatives are almost always fiscal conservatives. It just doesn't work the other way around.

The things that social conservatives believe in (like marriage) have provided the relational and financial stability that gives rise to investable income, that creates capital formation. Divorce leads to poverty of at least one party (usually the mother), and borrowing, government dependency, debt, etc.

This  only one of several examples. If you wil look at the societal/social conventions favored by social conservatives, you will see that they contribute positively to the fiscal health of them and their community at large.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 11:09 | 2243017 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

there's a lot to this actually. but whatever "cabal" exists is still simply overwhelmed by the treasury complex. the problem is the size and scope of the Federal Government...gold really doesn't matter in this context "but is simply part of an over-all investment portfolio." in other words "we're all stuck in the world of buy low/sell high" and whether we sell or not is an irrelevant side bar. in other words "first you must study the difference between a bid and an ask" and THEN "buy all the gold you want." (or in fact "lawyer up" as that's where the real battles are waged in the USA now) then i hear where you're coming from. everything else is simply "gazing into the crystal ball" and on that score "the market has better eyes than you and me." my gripe is with the value of cash...not gold. Always has been...always will be. the destruction of fiat money when paired with trillion dollar monetized debt truly is "a crime against humanity."

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:18 | 2242191 sosoome
sosoome's picture

Don't forget to thank the skooz for raising all the tadpoles.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:55 | 2242288 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

Comes the r3volution... first against the wall... the MSM!

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 12:25 | 2243109 passwordis
passwordis's picture

 The MSM IS the corporations institutions and banks. So let's be clear on that point and lets not forget the other arm of propaganda... education. The money power IS the Corporations Institution, all Media and all education and they control all three branches of government. Further more, evidence strongly suggests that those sitting on the very top of the money power have different DNA than 97.5 % of us.(if you believe the statistics).

 They also have superior cognitive ability and are able to squash criticism of their actions by referencing an "historic event" which never actually took place. They also know that a tiny segment of society will figure it all out so they pass hate laws to address that threat. 

Let's identify the enemy.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:22 | 2241897 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Whoa, whoa, whoa ... coins are like broken spoons? I really have a strong disagreement with this point. I would think a clearly recongizable Washington quarter that is 90% would trade at bullion weight. Same thing for ASEs and GSEs.

Anyone here with experience have a good reason why not?

Regards,

Cooter

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:43 | 2241933 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture

 

 

I was thinking the exact same thing Cooter;

Anything silver or gold from the US Mint (with the possible exception of 40% silver) should trade at weight; with ASE's and AGE's (as well as other widely-recognized bullion coins from government mints) trading at a premium over spot.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 03:31 | 2242732 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1  Cooter and Pool

I agree.  That is why I have standardized my PMs (well, for the most part) on Gold, Platinum and Silver Eagles.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 12:01 | 2243072 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

You guys missed the cue.  What he says about it isn't important, because he's only one member of the overall market.  It's what he feels about it, and this translates to how he feels about the premium he charges for junk silver.  Robert Mish has probably the lowest premium on junk silver of any dealer anywhere.

http://mishinternational.com

I am Chumbawamba.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 03:52 | 2242745 natty light
natty light's picture

+1 here too.

90% US coinage will not be "refined" as it is the best pm exchange mechanism for small purchases we have; every farmer would recognize a silver quarter e.g.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 12:38 | 2243118 Transformer
Transformer's picture

And the big question is. . . .  how long would it take for merchants an store owners to begin accepting those old coins at silver value, ie. items in the store have two prices.  One, the FRN price, and  X  the price in junk silver, which may have to be computed at the cash register.  So. . ..

How long (in days) if some version of HI is occurring?

How long if the banks are on holiday?

Who's got an opinion on this?

 

 

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 16:25 | 2243552 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Any non-commercial farmer's market merchant will accept your silver dimes, quarters, etc.    It's done here all the time.   The sellers are usually the growers themselves, and they know the current spot prices.   Most have a handy chart.   You can get a nice bushel of corn for that quarter.   Try it and see.

As for junk silver vs spot price, remember that actual junk (circulated) has lost some weight thru wear.  So, to keep from weighing each coin, a discount is applied to all junk and/or common date coins.   It's the most free market you'll find so look for the buyer who'll give you the best deal.

 

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 13:03 | 2243148 Hobbleknee
Hobbleknee's picture

You guys aren't considering all the factors involved.  Is he supposed to take your 25-pound bag of coins and just take your word for it that it's 90% silver, or is he supposed to spend hours checking the dates on them, or is he going to melt it down and have it purified?  Either way, all those options are more costly than accepting a stack of 1,000 oz .999 fine bars.

______________________________________________

http://www.comparegoldandsilverprices.com/

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:43 | 2241946 JNM
JNM's picture

I'm a market participant.  I wouldn't pay bullion rates for a washington quarter.  Somebody else might, but that's why the bid is lower.  Depth of market, isn't there.

FWIW, I'm Canadian. Maybe there is depth of market, in your geographic region.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:55 | 2241979 TN Jed
TN Jed's picture

Yes, but rates are not what's in question.  Nobody pays bullion rates for 90%, they pay 90%!  Mish stated that 90% isn't marketable in it's present form so it must be melted.  Who melts 90% coins?  Run from a dealer who tells you otherwise. I call dealer-numi bullshit.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:59 | 2242007 aphlaque_duck
aphlaque_duck's picture

When you buy 90% you pay based on the silver content not the gross weight. So it's already discounted by 10% (and even a little more to account for wear). 

But even based on just silver content you can buy 90% for less than pure silver because there is a higher cost to refine it due to the impurity. I don't think anybody actually refines it though, since it is perfectly useful aready as a tradeable unit of silver. If you want pure silver for utility puposes, you would buy Engelhard bars or whatever.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:21 | 2242202 Xploregon
Xploregon's picture

My understanding is that 90% "junk" silver being, half-dollars, quarters and dimes, is melt valued as being exactly what it is- 90% silver. The BENEFIT of junk silver isn't just the low premium you can buy it at (not necessarily discount you may pay to sell it) but the fact that even though warn by passing through many hands, junk silver is easily recognizable by anyone thus, not requiring a chemical assay to prove its authenticity.

Any thoughts?

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 23:33 | 2242375 aphlaque_duck
aphlaque_duck's picture

Yes I agree, but the premiums ARE lower for junk than pure silver. 

For example Tulving sells 90% at spot -$0.15, and pure bars at spot +$0.49.

Junk gives you the maximum silver exposure for your $. Bars have slightly lower buy/sell spreads, but only by a cunt hair.

Either is perfectly fine in terms of resale. In a mania situation I'd expect junk to be MORE liquid because it is more identifiable.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 02:57 | 2242697 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

Those comments on "junk silver" threw up a big red flag all over this.

90% is considered to be if not the most, one of the most tradable forms of silver.  Not to mention it's illegal to melt it down.

Other alloys (e.g. gold jewelry) can easily be assayed with a precious metals analyzer at a decent jeweler's.

Somebody is talking out their ass here, should have done their homework.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 03:57 | 2242749 natty light
natty light's picture

It is a lot easier to make fake silver-plated bars than to try to make fake coins. Who would go to the trouble to make fake silver dimes?

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 10:15 | 2242954 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

At the same time there are just little local laws enforced by bunko against making a fake silver bar.  Fake a U.S. coin and you're up against Federal laws with Treasury Agents to nail you.  Stick to U.S. mintages and you are much better off.  There's also the tax issue - a dollar is a dollar.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 12:44 | 2243125 Transformer
Transformer's picture

In the months before the Y2K debacle, junk silver got up to a 50% premium over spot.  Why?   Because people thought it would be very tradable, and serve as currency.

 

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 16:06 | 2243510 Doña K
Doña K's picture

I agree with you.

Whoever bought junk silver bought for one reason only. Trading it for goods when TSHTF. Why would anyone want to sell it? If you do need the money for it, sell it to other individuals, not the dealers. The dealer must have a discount from you and a profit for carrying it and reselling it.

I don't believe however that any dealer will bother melting it. As a matter of fact, if things get so bad, junk silver will actually have higher premium, as you mentioned and because it's legal. 

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 12:04 | 2243078 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

You guys obviously don't know Robert Mish.

-Chumblez.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 20:14 | 2243923 RiotActing
RiotActing's picture

My family does, very well, since 2002.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 10:40 | 2242978 Flocking swans
Flocking swans's picture

I don't buy this: ..."expect junk to be MORE liquid because it is more identifiable."

"identifiable." to who? Your family members, friends, and neighbors that you can not convince to buy silver today? Sure, 'the dealers' will recognize ur 'junk' and might buy if they are still open....but not the three above I just listed. To those people you will be engaged in this fun argument : "my quarter is better than ur quarter".... No thanks, I'll stick w/ clearly marked 1, 1/2, and 1/4 oz clearly marked .999 rounds.

 

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 14:37 | 2243335 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

 

"identifiable." to who?

Chinese people.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 21:03 | 2242009 Likstane
Likstane's picture

I dont believe anyone said the quarter is being sold for 100% of its weight.  The question was about the market rate for the silver content of varied forms.    

on another subject, Mish is a retard

edit.sorry-wrong mish, was thinking shedlock-much apoligies to this mish guy

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 21:05 | 2242024 TN Jed
TN Jed's picture

You're right and I'm just tripping over semantics in a rush to call BS on this.  We're all on the same page.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 11:14 | 2243021 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

how about the market rate for treasury note? or Intel Corporation? are those markets not deep enough? Seems to me "the price is the price"...and that's that. Not that i'm not willing to "make a market in Washington quarters" for you if you like. My phone hasn't been ringing much lately...

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 16:56 | 2243616 DosZap
DosZap's picture

JNM

 I wouldn't pay bullion rates for a washington quarter. 

No one here I know of is either, its sold by $1.00 face value.

Purchasing would be at spot, less 10%,including smelting costs, if one were inclined to maybe go to prison by destrying US coinage..

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:55 | 2241992 aphlaque_duck
aphlaque_duck's picture

I agree, that made no sense. 

90% junk is harder to refine (hence lower premium than generic) but it will alwyas be a readily traded unit of silver. Indeed, the most identifiable of any.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 21:25 | 2242058 Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

"the most identifiable of any"

I really doubt that. There are many millions of Americans who have never seen an old mercury dime or liberty quarter. Even the 40% stuff went into hiding before half of these kids were born.

Okay, so I'm old. I'm 59. So shut up.

Izzy Friedman might turn out to be right: the American Silver Eagle may end up being the most desirable and widely accepted silver bullion unit.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 01:12 | 2242563 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

So diversify.

I've got about 40% ASEs, 40% in tubes of Mercury dimes, 10% in halves, and 10% in dollars.

I like the Mercs for trade purposes, and ASEs for little chests of shiny pirate money hidden around the place- the halves and dollars are just there for nostalgic folks.

Somehow, I just can't like the quarters, though.  Can't say how or why, I'm just not into them- kind of like gold.  All the arguments can be perfect, but there's a gut feeling that they're just not a good idea.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 03:38 | 2242738 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1

Diversification is good!  Here is Do Chen's PM strategy:

 

75% AGEs (by $ value)

12% American Platinum Eagles by $ value

10% ASEs (by $ value)

3% palladium as a speculation & for grins.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 02:58 | 2242705 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

 

"the most identifiable of any"

I really doubt that. There are many millions of Americans who have never seen an old mercury dime or liberty quarter. Even the 40% stuff went into hiding before half of these kids were born.

And why do you think they won't figure this out real quick?

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 10:53 | 2242997 Flocking swans
Flocking swans's picture

Because. They. Are. Sheep. Sheep don't figure, they follow. So, how do you figure these people will figure it out? If tomorrow the the power goes off nationwide, people will instantly value silver? And those people will know for fact that 'Ur quarter is better that their quarter'.....?

Why, how, where....will they figure it out again?

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 12:51 | 2243136 Transformer
Transformer's picture

The merchants will figure it out pretty damn quick.  When people go into a store and see a sign that says. "Price as marked, or 95% off for pre '64 coins" they will get it real quick.  Signs like this already exist around the country in stores where the owner is a silver bug.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 17:57 | 2243715 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Flocking swans

Why, how, where....will they figure it out again?

Easy, take em to coinflation.com/coin_calulators.html

Mama said, Stupid is as Stupid Does.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 23:20 | 2244159 Flocking swans
Flocking swans's picture

I said...: "If tomorrow the the power goes off nationwide"...

Then will it be 'EASY!?',  You will just need to have that current coinfaltaion info printed out before the power goes off, a scale, and a calculator so that you can be the one to tell/argue with everybody else what their coins are worth.  

Have fun w/ that.

Sun, 03/11/2012 - 04:03 | 2244431 vato poco
vato poco's picture

"Millions of Americans have never seen a mercury dime or a liberty quarter..."

True enough. But should/when the day finally comes when FRN's are finally seen for the toilet paper they are, those millions will learn *real* quick - even allowing for the fact they all went to gubmint skoolz, and can't spel or reed so good. "What is or is not real Money" is about the most powerful (learning) motivational tool there is....and even the slack-jawed, baggy-pantsed, gangsta/emo/hipster wannabe brigades can & will learn the significance of "1964" right quick.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:55 | 2241994 Likstane
Likstane's picture

Maybe to sell them back to a refiner, there would be a higher percentage loss, but at APMEX, Provident, and my local coin dealer, junk silver gets close to spot price.  The .999 stuff is just a little easier to deal with.  I think this article has exagerated the vig a bit to try and make a case to purchase the fine. 

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 21:41 | 2242065 cowdiddly
cowdiddly's picture

Exactly. They are not going to melt Morgan dollars at any refinery. They are separated out and sold back to the market as they are already in a marketable form. You can tell that idiot that I have made more money on rare coins than I ever made on .999 and I was around in 1980. Believe me their was boocoo demand for anything silver right down to a .925 teapot or spoon, it did not matter. Some 90% was melted in the last boom in 1980s towards the end as the refiners were that desparate for metal but they usually don't melt the stuff. If they did do you think there would be that much around ofter 100+ years?

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 21:48 | 2242114 akak
akak's picture

When dealers buy back sizeable quantities of circulated silver coins, how do they process them, or check that each and every coin IS silver?  I have a hard time imagining that they scrutinize the dates of each and every one of hundreds or thousands of coins, but even examining their edges (as I used to do when pulling 90% Ag coins from rolled coins from the bank) would not necessarily eliminate forgeries in which the coins or their edges were plated to pass as silver.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:24 | 2242157 cowdiddly
cowdiddly's picture

They do not look at dates or wear, the larger ones like Apmex have coin bagging machines that separate the coins and they are sold by weight. The machines spit out badly underweight coins. Some of these will be bad worn and sold as culls/ no dates. I used to buy ninty percent bags and separated out dimes that had full bands or halfs with full bell lines for profit, often making more one one or two coins than the rest of the bag. But your chance of finding say a 1921merc or 1885 CC dollar are slim as they are already picked out of coins except on a rare ocasion. Just pitch a new quarter into a pile of 90 percent and it sticks out like a sore thumb easy to spot. I do not know how they are dealing with some of the new Chinese fakes though.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:34 | 2242230 akak
akak's picture

Interesting --- I never thought about them sorting (and separating) silver coins by weight, but of course silver is denser than any copper + nickel alloy.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 01:15 | 2242571 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Really?

You should check out the guys who sort pre-82 pennies.  It's not my idea of a good time, but they do it by weight as well.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 11:31 | 2243036 YC2
YC2's picture

I do it by the "pingggggg!"

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 15:27 | 2243434 dogbreath
dogbreath's picture

i though they go "tinggggggggggg" ...........   hmnnn

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 03:04 | 2242714 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

 

I was around in 1980. Believe me their was boocoo demand for anything silver right down to a .925 teapot or spoon, it did not matter.

I was around in the '80's too.  I recall it well, and can confirm:  IT DID NOT MATTER.

Which is why I think this article is fucking lame ass bullshit.

When it gets right down to it, if it's got some gold or silver in it, IT WILL NOT MATTER.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 10:59 | 2243002 Fukushima Sam
Fukushima Sam's picture

And if the governement starts confiscating PMs, you're going to wish you had at least some of it in something other than bullion, such as jewelry or collectable coins.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 21:27 | 2242064 seek
seek's picture

I trade junk silver (mostly just hold, though.)

There's a different buy/sell spread because the dealers have to sort and count. If they didn't someone could dump a bunch of 1994 quarters in with the 1964s. Good dealers also reject coins that are too worn to identify. Wear is also why junk silver carries a different silver content than new (generally 715oz for $1000 face value used junk.)

So it's basically handling fees causing a shift in the spread with respect to silver bars. Mint coins (eagles) have a much higher premium due to the minting, precision, etc. Just compare the eagle price to plain silver rounds and you'll see. If there were ASEs made out of both silver and steel in circulation in small denominations, you'd see the same premium structure in ASEs.

 

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 21:46 | 2242112 Gold Dog
Gold Dog's picture

I think he is talking about getting it into Crimex tradable bars.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 11:13 | 2243022 Bam_Man
Bam_Man's picture

Yeah, riiiiight.

Like there will still be a COMEX at that point in the shitstorm. The CRIMEX will have folded and left most participants with nothing but pieces of paper long before then.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:19 | 2242198 PaJoad
PaJoad's picture

My understanding for owning junk silver has been as a form of insurance in a SHTF situation. Bank holiday, nobody knows what might happen with the currency, gotta buy goods and services and junk is identifiable and would be excepted and very useful. Fallacy?

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:35 | 2242233 seek
seek's picture

That seems to be the common wisdom among survivalist circles. It may take some time for people to recognize that it has value over and above a regular quarter, but I suspect news would travel relatively fast. I've educated several bank tellers about this when I ask if I can see their coin tray. The older tellers know exactly what I'm doing and will chime in that the change sounds different, so the knowledge isn't completely lost.

One upside to junk is that it's still US currency, so that may make it a bit more resistant to various legal approaches, though that doesn't seem to be holding up in tax courts (go figure.) But it also puts in a guaranteed price floor (sort of like nickels now, which were worth something like 6-7 cents in metal value recently, but because they're nickels, can't go below 5 cents in value. Win-win, which is why Kyle Bass bought so many.) The same would apply to silver, but I can't imagine the price will ever crash enough to make using them at fiat value practical.

 

 

 

 

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:37 | 2242237 Xploregon
Xploregon's picture

Of course, another reason for junk silvers low premium is that its already in recognizable form and needs no stamping, smelting or engraving. Again, giving it instant recognizability to almost anyone on the "spot".

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 23:01 | 2242300 The Swedish Chef
The Swedish Chef's picture

My thoughts exactly. A fork will perhaps be hard to trade as it will get stopped up at the refiner but junk silver coins will trade just fine. If it ain´t broken, don´t fix it and if it is already a coin, don´t refine it.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 12:14 | 2243091 longdong silver
longdong silver's picture

I'll be the guy in the red shirt, selling to the people in line out in the parking lot.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 13:03 | 2243150 Transformer
Transformer's picture

And what will you be selling it for?  FRN's?  What if the FRN's are depreciating on a weekly basis?  When this situation everyone is talking about here actually starts to happen, you won't value PMs in dollars, it will be the other way around and the PMs will be money.  So at that point, you will have money in your hand, and why would you trade it for a depreciating piece of paper?

For just buying some groceries or gas for your car, the most valuable and easily traded money will be junk coins.  How will you buy a loaf of bread or a 5 gal of gas, when silver is the equivalent of today $200/oz, using an ASE or even more ridiculous, a gold coin?  How will the seller make change?  And silver rounds, who is going to trust them?

You've got to think this stuff through.  Junk silver will be THE traded currency if things get really bad.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 15:18 | 2243419 dogbreath
dogbreath's picture

I disagree.  If these coins start to freely circulate in the marketplace,  coins/farm products  coin/labour then their value in bullion weight may be recognized at par but I doubt it   as much as the comex is bullshit the quoted prices are for recognized 100oz or 400oz or 1000oz bars.  The ase's and age's  trade at a priemium for the minting cost and that the dealers try to get as large a markup as they can.  

i wonder why all the 40% and 90% haven't been rerefined and turned into .999.  

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 16:49 | 2243601 DosZap
DosZap's picture

CrazyCooter

Dude you are right on, firstly, melting US Silver legal tender cpoins would promptly get their ass shutdown, and in prison.

PLUS, 90% Silver is one of the safest ways to hold it. And least likely to be CALLED in.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 21:20 | 2243993 akak
akak's picture

.

Dude you are right on, firstly, melting US Silver legal tender cpoins would promptly get their ass shutdown, and in prison.

Actually, that is incorrect --- it is perfectly legal to melt old US silver coins, and has been so for decades now (since the later 1960s, I believe).  It was only illegal for a limited period in the middle 1960s, when doing so would have materially affected the stock of circulating coinage; once effectively all silver coins had been removed from circulation, that prohibition was made irrelevant, and was lifted.  Certainly quite a lot of old US silver coins were freely melted in the late 1970s and early 1980s --- I remember one large bullion dealer at a prominent numismatist convention even showing photos of themselves engaging in the process at the time.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 11:56 | 2243061 passwordis
passwordis's picture

I don't know what a portfolio is. Sounds like something the bankers created for the serfs. Diversification is another one of those words.  I don't have a portfolio and I'm not diversified.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:11 | 2241874 AUD
AUD's picture

Yes, this idea that gold was a bubble mania in 1979-80 plays into the hands of those who wish to continue to rob you. To wit - if gold was a bubble in 1979-80 it can be again.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:41 | 2241935 tekhneek
tekhneek's picture

He never said it couldn't be in a bubble again, he just said it isn't in a bubble right now.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:54 | 2241990 AUD
AUD's picture

You've just proved my point.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 21:04 | 2242022 aphlaque_duck
aphlaque_duck's picture

I think he mis-read your comment. I did too on the first pass.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 21:06 | 2242028 tekhneek
tekhneek's picture

D'oh. Yep I mis-read it. Agreed though.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 02:22 | 2242662 holdbuysell
holdbuysell's picture

Volcker jammed interest rates sky high (above inflation) and the US jammed a boat load of dollars overseas at that time.

Unless the US can dollarize Mars or the Andromeda Galaxy next, there's no encore, even with a Volcker-like performance, which is a nonstarter in the current state.

http://www.marketskeptics.com/2011/06/the-esf-and-its-history.html

 

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:17 | 2241886 whatsinaname
whatsinaname's picture

If the USD is in fear of default what could happen to some of the Asian country currencies ? Are they at any sort of risk too ?

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:21 | 2241893 AUD
AUD's picture

yes

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 21:02 | 2242006 tekhneek
tekhneek's picture

Absolutely...

They're all being printed like crazy by their respective central banks and to make matters worse those currencies that are being printed (out of thin air, and sometimes just numbers in a database) are pegged to a "reserve currency" (in this case the Federal Reserve Note or "dollar") and we're printing those like crazy too.

It's a recipe for hyperinflation which is bad for all currencies. This is the first time in history that all countries across the world used only fiat currencies that had no intrinsic value. Before this you could usually buy Swiss Francs, or other currencies which had commodity based backing, or some sort of backing. Right now there's nothing. If you don't own physical gold/silver, productive farm land, and other assets it's going to be a very rough decade for you.

Historically speaking most currencies that left some sort of redeemable standard and began the process of deficit spending ended up hyperinflating anywhere between 30 to 40 years after the standard was removed.

Rome did it too by clipping coins as people would enter the colosseum's and theaters as a "tax" but these clippings would be mixed with less pure metals and put back onto the market at face value along with all of the "good" coins. Eventually this led to hyperinflation and the currency was abandoned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denarius

Nothing new here really... just the opportunity to stack PM's and other productive assets while currencies gobally implode on themselves thus transferring all that "wealth" into real money (e.g, gold and silver)

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:01 | 2242136 deflator
deflator's picture

 Gold could be in a bubble and fiat not in a bubble IF and a very big IF real(not just debt) global growth were to be, or was able to be extrapolated indefinitely into the future.

 Unfortunately real growth  will not be able to keep up with growth in debt so gold or any other commodity is not in a bubble and every fiat currency is in a bubble.

 

 The term "bubble" doesn't even begin to describe the lack of ability of debt being extrapolated into the future on a similar curve as the past 150 years much less the last 20.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 07:10 | 2242830 solgundy
solgundy's picture

Finally a sane goldbug, there are 'cash for gold signs' all over the place....people are dumping....the msjority are trying to raise cash to live....sorry Eric King et al, a "mania in gold stocks" is unlikely or many years away...after

4 more years of Karl Marx Jr....very few will have any extra cash

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 11:06 | 2243012 Flocking swans
Flocking swans's picture

30+ years of reagan Voodo economics trickling down to the few leaves few w/ any extra cash.

There, fixed it for ya.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 18:47 | 2243797 Nottingham
Nottingham's picture

This is my fear, that people will be so poor that nobody will have $2100 to pay for an ounce!   Sure, the gold will be worth something, but what?

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 07:26 | 2242841 Chaffinch
Chaffinch's picture

This is going to be very different from the 1980s. In the 1980s there was a relatively stable fiat system to revert to once gold reached it's top. When we eventually reach the top in this market, what would you buy with your PMs? New Dollars? Maybe I'd want a few of those for day-to-day stuff, but PMs are going to fulfil their role as a store of wealth for decades once TSHTF.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 12:50 | 2243134 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Actually, a lot of people thought it was the end of the Western fiat paradigm in the 1980s, which is why gold and silver spiked as they did.  In fact, it was not much different than today, or how it was in 1999 when a bunch of rednecks were convinced it was truly TEOTWAWKI.

This time may also be a false alarm.  But I doubt it.

I am Chumbawamba.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 20:02 | 2243903 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

 

 

I cannot stand watching videos. Can't.Stand.it.  Complete waste of time; printing the transcript from the website and reading it took like 5 minutes.  And, it's portable.

Sun, 03/11/2012 - 21:46 | 2246163 WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

Gold might not be so cheap in Silver, Yuan or HKD terms...

 

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 19:58 | 2241839 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Just want to point out that I believe the U.S. went bankrupt when it went off the gold standard.  

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:02 | 2241856 urbanelf
urbanelf's picture

A cruise missile just looked up your IP address on infosniper.net.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:07 | 2241866 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Cruise missiles are a million bucks each.  More likely, they will just take me out and shoot me for repeating their Orwellian forbidden speech.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:13 | 2241878 spiral_eyes
spiral_eyes's picture

A million bucks is a lot of aggregate demand.

Good Keynesian thinkers like me & MDB understand the necessity of throwing cruise missiles at dissenters, because it raises aggregate demand.

Recovery, bitches.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:16 | 2241883 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I suppose there is also the Keynesian advantage of having to rebuild the area in which I was located at the time of the strike.  I'm fucked.  

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:23 | 2241899 spiral_eyes
spiral_eyes's picture

Even better is to use a nuclear warhead.

We can achieve full employment more easily through scrubbing fallout.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 21:07 | 2242021 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

We already have that now - the killing of our own for profit.  It is called coronary capitalism:

"But the obesity epidemic hardly looks like a growth killer. Highly processed corn-based food products, with lots of chemical additives, are well known to be a major driver of weight gain, but, from a conventional growth-accounting perspective, they are great stuff. Big agriculture gets paid for growing the corn (often subsidized by the government), and the food processors get paid for adding tons of chemicals to create a habit-forming – and thus irresistible – product. Along the way, scientists get paid for finding just the right mix of salt, sugar, and chemicals to make the latest instant food maximally addictive; advertisers get paid for peddling it; and, in the end, the health-care industry makes a fortune treating the disease that inevitably results.

Coronary capitalism is fantastic for the stock market, which includes companies in all of these industries. Highly processed food is also good for jobs, including high-end employment in research, advertising, and health care.

So, who could complain? Certainly not politicians, who get re-elected when jobs are plentiful and stock prices are up – and get donations from all of the industries that participate in the production of processed food. Indeed, in the US, politicians who dared to talk about the health, environmental, or sustainability implications of processed food would in many cases find themselves starved of campaign funds."

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/rogoff89/English

 

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 21:50 | 2242121 rancher from So...
rancher from South Dakota's picture

rebel eat grass-fed bison or spanish beef

 

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 03:09 | 2242719 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

...Or the rich.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 10:18 | 2242956 imaginalis
imaginalis's picture

Rocketdyne

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:48 | 2241965 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

All those collateral "broken windows" will create jobs.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 21:30 | 2242069 WillieNelsonListener
WillieNelsonListener's picture

how many oz of Ag is in one cruise missle?

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:06 | 2242164 TN Jed
TN Jed's picture

I've always seen 500oz being repeated but could never find a verifiable source for it.  I dunno, that's a lot of silver.   Then again, I've never seen a cruise missle in person but I'm guessing they're bigger than I think and am very happy to just leave it at that.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 01:21 | 2242583 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

I'm going to check next week when the Raytheon engineer is at our shop.  He may not know offhand, but he's a sharp guy, so it wouldn't surprise me if he does.  

If I can lay it to rest one way or the other, I'll report back.

And yes, a cruise missile is likely way bigger than you think.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 16:22 | 2243389 Cast Iron Skillet
Cast Iron Skillet's picture

The 500 oz number has intrigued me as well - it seems like an awful lot. Let's test plausibility:

I don't know anything about cruise missiles, but according to wikipedia a Tomahawk weighs 1300 kg and the bomb part (payload) weighs 450 kg. I've never heard of a lot of silver being used in explosives, so let's assume that the bomb contains minimal silver. that means that that the 500 oz or about 15 kg of silver is concentrated in the remaining 1300 - 450 = 850 kg of missile guts & rocket fuel.

Now quite a bit of the rest has to be fuel, because the things fly a damn long way. What would be a reasonable assumption? Let's say 2/3 of the remaining weight is rocket fuel. Now I have never heard that rocket fuel contains a lot of silver, so let's assume that it contains practically no silver. That would mean that the silver is concentrated in the remaining (1/3) * 850 = 283 kg of raw missile guts.

That would mean that silver makes up (15/283) * 100 = 5.3 % of the raw missile guts.

Since silver is heavy, and since more weight makes the missiles fly less far, the engineers would have much motivation to reduce the use of silver as much as possible. And ... I would imagine that they did so. My tip would be that each cruise missile contains considerably less than 15 kg of silver.

and btw, 5,3% Silver works out to 53 kg or about 1700 oz per metric ton, which would be extremely, extremely rich for a silver ore out of a mine. ... Anyone know where a guy could get a bunch of missile guts? Do you think we'd find any nuggets in the thing?

But I could easily be wrong ... anybody have a link to qualified info?

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 10:27 | 2242964 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

Forget cruise missiles.  There are many pounds of silver in every house in California.  All new copper plumbing since the 80s is required to use Silver solder.  Yeesh.  It's expensive, too. RoHS rules are restricting the use of lead everywhere driving up the use of Silver.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 17:19 | 2243662 DosZap
DosZap's picture

how many oz of Ag is in one cruise missle?

Last number I heard, 125 ounces.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 21:56 | 2242131 moonman
moonman's picture

Your door gets kicked down in 3...2...1

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:01 | 2242151 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

"The city’s fiscal crisis is driven by more than $300 million in debt from the project at the waste-to-energy plant, which doesn’t generate enough revenue to cover its costs."

 

umm they can't make a $5M payment cause they doled out $300M into a burning wealth sucking black hole?

shouldn't they just shut the fucker down? 

 

 

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 00:30 | 2242491 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

They'll probably form a committee & decide what they really need to do is build 5 more...

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:12 | 2241853 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

Brian Sullivan of CNBC was interviewing Ron Paul this morning. Congressman Paul was talking about the Fed blowing bubbles in a serial manner.

He said that the Fed has destroyed the incentlive to save by lowering and negating interest rates and thus pumping up bond prices.  This really struck a chord with Sullivan, the look on his face was priceless with a most indignant face, he asked Dr. Paul ... "so you are saying that Treasury bonds are in a bubble"?

"ABSOLUTELY" was Mr. Paul's reply. 

Interest rates are at all time lows which means that bond prices are at all time highs, at a time when more Treasury debt is outstanding than can be paid back.  Debt to GDP numbers are at all time highs and the Federal Reserve balance sheet has tripled in size in less than 4 years. Our credit rating was belatedly downgraded and may be downgraded. At a time when the world is no longer buying our debt, the Fed is the biggest buyer. In fact, even by their own numbers, they are buying 58% of all new Treasury auctions.

This is the definition of a bubble!

The supposedly smart financial journalist at CNBC, Mr. Sullivan has bubbles all around him, even being explained to him by Dr. Paul, yet he is indignant that anyone would use the word bubble in the same sentence as the sacrosant U.S. Treasury!

THIS is exactly how panics happen.  

When something that is so obvious to anyone who can strap up the velcro on their sneakers cannot and does not see the obvious, reality hits hard! 

Dollars and Treasuries are the most over owned, over abundant assets ...debt and thus liabilities on the entire planet in all of history!  It would not surprise one bit if our great granchildren look up the definition of bubble and get '2012 Treasury market' as a definition!

www.lemetropolecafe.com

 

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:35 | 2241925 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

At a time when the world is no longer buying our debt, the Fed is the biggest buyer. In fact, even by their own numbers, they are buying 58% of all new Treasury auctions.

This is the definition of a bubble!

It's also the definition of a ponzi..... cooked balance sheets and made up figures to keep the train rolling at all cost.  "Don't ask any questions" a la Madoff.  This freak show of an economy is going to blow up hard.  I can't wait, frankly.  I hope Benocide and Geithner get walked in a parade down mainstreet USA where everyone can spit on them.

Fuckers.

 

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 21:29 | 2242068 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

I can wait. Even most ZH preppers aren't really ready for what's coming. The more time to prep the better: >water, >canned foods, >guns, >ammo. And: >Silver Eagles, future coin of the Realm.  

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 21:37 | 2242085 akak
akak's picture

Since the future is both fluid and unknowable, I think it is a given that everybody is unprepared, to some degree, for "what's coming".

I notice you forgot both toilet paper and any form of energy and/or heat in your prioritized list above --- ain't nothin' worse than tryin' to clean one's soiled butt without TP on a frosty -10 degree morning.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:37 | 2242239 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Finnish bidet.  Wipe with a snowball.

 

I've been checking out wood gasification.  My wife, bless her heart, is now getting into the swing, and when things get bad, I'll have a very valuable skill:

http://gekgasifier.com/wood-gasifier-plans/

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:40 | 2242248 akak
akak's picture

.

Finnish bidet.  Wipe with a snowball.

LOL! 

That was priceless --- and a decidely unpleasant prospect!

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 23:24 | 2242355 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

It's better than ice-fishing and having to use a half-a-leg of your long-handles.

 

The half that was clean after you finally made it to the tree-line, that is.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 23:29 | 2242369 akak
akak's picture

Well, a snowball of freshly-fallen snow might not be SO bad --- but a chunk of crusty, late-season firn, OUCH!

Better hope you don't have hemorrhoids in that case!

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 23:33 | 2242376 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Crusty snow is still better than a spruce bough.

 

That'll bring you straight past chafing and monkey butt to Baboon Ass.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 23:41 | 2242389 akak
akak's picture

HA!

I literally laughed out loud at that!

But  it is infinitely better to use a hemlock bough over a spruce one --- just make sure that you use it WITH the grain of the needles, not against it, or you will be picking slivers and needles out of your baboon ass.

If it happens to be summer, and you are in the western UP, I highly recommend using the backsides of thimbleberry leaves, which are both large enough and soft enough to be positively comfortable.  Mullein leaves work well, too, and are soft and felty enough to make Charmin feel like emery cloth.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 00:07 | 2242446 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Once, opening day of deer season, I was left with the option of cedar boughs or some of the foot-and-a-half of fresh snow.

I chose the cedar.

My Uncle was lucky, he had wet maple leaves around a natural artesian.

Another guy got stuck with the snow.

My cousin chose a few oak leaves, that crumbled under pressure.

 

Moral of the story:  Don't eat sauerkraut and sausage the night before opening day, unless you've checked for shit-tickets in your carry-all bag first.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 00:22 | 2242462 akak
akak's picture

All spoken like a true Yooper!

Go with the pasties next time --- they are more binding (as long as they are not too heavy on the carrots and rutabagas).

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 00:34 | 2242479 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Unless there's too many baggies in 'em is right.

Then it's like the grapefruit I ate earlier tonight.

Christ, I'm like a salad-shooter!

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 00:39 | 2242503 akak
akak's picture

I think we are perilously close to TMI territory here.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 00:57 | 2242532 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Probably, I'll just blame it on the coffee....

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 01:12 | 2242564 Titan Uranus
Titan Uranus's picture

Well, you COULD use a dollar - just be careful with that, 'cause you would have a real mess with three quarters, two dimes, and a nickle.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 02:26 | 2242668 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

You carry money while deer hunting?

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 11:54 | 2243059 trav7777
trav7777's picture

I guess I am the only one here outdoorsy enough to know to bring ass gasket?

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 18:17 | 2243208 Hulk
Hulk's picture

We take butterscotch with us. This is where the hunting dogs come in handy...

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 12:43 | 2243122 Awakened Sheeple
Awakened Sheeple's picture

I have a new favorite poster.. Forester, would you happen to live near Way Dam?

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 19:32 | 2243860 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Nah, I'm a couple hours north, in Traprock Valley.  Too many bald-heads down that way....

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 15:43 | 2243466 dogbreath
dogbreath's picture

I can reccomend sphagnum.   you will get some chafing as a result but it usually not too bad and you can get through the day.  

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 19:33 | 2243862 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Not too abundant in a hardwood stand, with a couple feet of snow on the ground, though.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:47 | 2242264 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

The future is knowable: study of History. All Ponzis collapse, and this one has the steepest walls ever...the coming Crash will echo thru the ages, if anyone's left alive to listen. And, yes, am also stockpiling heavy paper towels in 3-unit rolls...x'l use. Energy/heat also a good idea - Mindweapons in Ragnarok site recommends for starters a good, big Fresnel lens, tho where I live you don't need heat or air conditioning. Paradise, for a little while yet....  

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 11:24 | 2243028 margaris
margaris's picture

Good idea.

I thought I'll get me a parabolic mirror like this guy here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0ff-uxWyp0

Didnt know they use fresnel lense for solar cooking as well.

I'll chek it out.

Also , I have seen fresnel lense that are foldable?

 

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 23:13 | 2242328 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

In that case I'm prepared to feed Obammy, Timmy, and Benny ice cold shitcicles.  I'll even eat corn the night before for texture...

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 09:40 | 2242923 Dr.Engineer
Dr.Engineer's picture

It is treason what they are doing.  What is the penalty for that?

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:59 | 2242297 Xploregon
Xploregon's picture

Brian Sullivan is arguably the most naieve financial commentator on the tube. Totally lacking depth and original thought, it seems as if he's reading from TBTB script (and perhaps he is).

His unconvincing delivery and, "shill factor" makes one wonder if his presence on CNBS makes him seem right at home and, why his former employer FOX, dumped him.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 23:26 | 2242361 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

They needed a retch-factor to balance out the fuck-me-eyes of the Aussie.

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