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Copper Set To Tumble After CME Hikes Copper, Platinum Margins Once Again

Tyler Durden's picture


It appears the US has decided to apply a scorched earth policy to China. While we are seeing flashing headlines that the Senate just passed a China currency bill 79 to 19 (we don't know what is in the bill yet), we doubt it will be something that China will be too pleased with, as most likely there will be some language about currency manipulation and/or some such typical politician propaganda. What is more troubling is that the CME just made sure the tens if not hundreds of billions of Chinese copper collateralized Letters of Credit just lost even more value following yet another margin hike in Copper, which raised initial and maintenance margins by 15%. If China perceives US actions as provocative (and it made very clear that US overtures in Taiwan already are), we may just see an 'oopsie' moment tomorrow when the Mainland decides to offload a few billions in US Treasurys. And the cherry on top was a 28.6% margin hike in Platinum: a direct warning to gold and silver longs once again.



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Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:41 | 1734894 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

pass the sweet and sour shrimp.............

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:44 | 1734906 Mike2756
Mike2756's picture

Wow, they're gluttons for punishment.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:29 | 1735269 Comay Mierda
Comay Mierda's picture

time to buy more some SLV & GLD puts

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:34 | 1735283 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

Hike the Gold and Silver margins to 100%, let's get this over with.  

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 21:18 | 1735410 Thomas
Thomas's picture

Yup. We don't need no stinking speculators!

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 21:28 | 1735439 JohnG
JohnG's picture

Ahem, already on.  Get em while you can.  Seems to be coming apart.

It's on.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:43 | 1734900 greg merrill
greg merrill's picture

Let me kick copper (again) while it's down... :)


Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:49 | 1734926 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Imho platinum is a bargain here.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:56 | 1734945 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

Nobody can say these markets aren't interesting.  I'm really at a "what is going on?" moment.  I have no idea where anything is headed, including PMs.  I had bought a lot in the last 5 years and now I figure I am just going to sit on it (not literally).  I'm trying to keep a good supply of that crap called "cash".  Maybe there will be some buying opportunities in 6 months or so. 

I think long-term accumulation of PMs is good but I can see it going down quite a bit from here.  I had not had that type of thought for a while.  It is probably wrong.  The reason I see for a further hit to PMs is that somebody is trying to seriously monkey-fukk China.  Just look at the Chinese stock market.  It is getting destroyed.  Now commodities are getting taken out and shot. 

Just think if oil gets below $70, even to $60.  Then we can start talking about big problems in Australia and Canada.  Don't they still have those unpopped housing bubbles?  Good luck with that,  Your denial will turn to anger and fear.  I have seen that in the people around me.  Enjoy.  Just make sure you keep saying, "prices will come back".  If you say it enough it might come true.  Well, not really, but you can think that. 

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:58 | 1734946 Mike2756
Mike2756's picture

Went long silver, got stopped out and went short via zsl. Looks like it's headed to 20.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 22:31 | 1735648 SGS
SGS's picture

Maybe, homie they were saying the same at $450/share ZSL not too long ago.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 23:20 | 1735796 Mike2756
Mike2756's picture

Daily is oversold but, weak bounce in the stoch and rsi. Weekly not there yet but, the macd is hooking lower, daily might be working off oversold time vs. price. 4hr 40ma coming in around 30.69, got a bounce off the 100ma on the weekly, 200 is coming in at 20.53. Didn't put on a huge position, just looked good from the short side.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:03 | 1734964 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

There is a war going on my friend. Seen American stocks lately?

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:15 | 1735010 chump666
chump666's picture

Australia and Canada will be shorted hard.  Their main markets are made up of miners/financial/real estate

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:22 | 1735026 Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture

When the CRIMEX/CME/CFTC futures/options manipulators of commodities play their games to smash the prices of real stuff in order to prop up their Ponzi Paper Products .... well the buyers of Physical Commods step up to the plate and say, "I'll take some that.  Thanks for the discount". 

Qatari wealth fund plans $10bn gold buying spree

The Qatari Royal family plans to spend up to $10bn (£6.4bn) buying stakes in gold producers through their sovereign wealth fund, The Daily Telegraph can disclose. 

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 21:13 | 1735385 Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

Why would the dumb fucks announce this!  Accumulate in secrecy otherwise risk driving up the price of that which you wish to purchase.  Dumb fucks or what?!

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:26 | 1735258 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

That was accurate. Get ready for real money moves

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:25 | 1735042 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Had the same moment a lot of times in my life, but I've generally found that giving into doubt or fear has just set me up to be skinned.  I'm seeing a massive head-fake here regarding all the commodities, and the fact that I have started to wonder if I made the wrong moves emotionally while I am still convinced of the fundimentals is actually supporting that for me.

In the past, I've gone with my gut, and ended up with a lot of indigestion from it.  Not this time- when everything falls apart, it won't be stocks that people value, it will be metal, food, energy, and other things that everyone needs to live, and I'm holding tight to that strategy.

Your milage may vary, of course, and I certainly don't have a crystal ball.  Good luck with whatever you decide to go for.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 23:59 | 1735929 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

It depends on where we're headed. Depression or inflation?

Tue, 10/04/2011 - 00:29 | 1735993 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Does it matter?

In a depression, it can be helpful to hold currency, obviously- but the use of that currency is still to purchase essentials, unless you're looking to get a new big-screen TV on the cheap or something.  If you have the essentials, you don't need the cash- and physical commodities work as barter goods.  Shitty for existing debt, though.

In inflation, it's helpful to have relatively stable trade items, to avoid falling into the velocity trap and being forced into senseless accumulation based on what's available at the moment.  Gold and silver skyrocket- but so do bread and shoes.  If you have the PMs, you don't have to rush to the store to spend as quickly as possible.  Spiffy if you have existing debt with locked in rates. 

Either way, commodities are a solid hedge.  They can suck when things are going only moderately well or moderately poorly- then you're just tying up capital in things you could get whenever you need them for no apparent reason, and forgoing any profit that could be made on that capital.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:34 | 1735282 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

Chinese stock market is just a scam and the indexes meaningless. Fastest growing economy in the world and you would have made zero investing in it for many years - if lucky . Profits accrue to the government people letting the busines operate not the stockholders. US only 70% as much thievery in stock market.


If this was a plan to screw China, why would people be making commodities lower? They are the biggest buyer of most of them.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 21:10 | 1735376 Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

The key is that PMs will retain their purchasing power in a deflationary or inflationary environment.  Also, hold one month's expenses in green cash as it may be king for a while, then again it might be devalued by 50% overnight so limit how much cash you have laying around.  Also, it might come in handy when an EMP explodes over Colorado in December and the electrical grid goes down. 

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 21:53 | 1735521 Ratzalot
Ratzalot's picture

"Also, it might come in handy when an EMP explodes over Colorado in December and the electrical grid goes down."

Uh, what?

Tue, 10/04/2011 - 00:49 | 1736042 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

Heat source. The Germans in Weimar knew what to do with their Deutschmarks

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:24 | 1735039 DosZap
DosZap's picture



I agree, try and find some, without a $100.00+ Prem............bstds.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:02 | 1735190 Troll Magnet
Troll Magnet's picture

plat & silver are best buys right now but whereas silver is abundant, the sellers have pulled all their plats off of their shelves. i see it as the phys sellers telling the paperbugs to fuck off.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:44 | 1734905 Kiss My Iceland...
Kiss My Icelandic Ass's picture

"the Senate just passed a China currency bill 79 to 19 (we don't know what is in the bill yet) ...


I'm sure the Senate doesn't know what's in it either. Isn't that how bills are passed these days ?

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:45 | 1734910 Mike2756
Mike2756's picture

This is going to be fun to watch, from a distance.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:52 | 1734932 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

If you can see the Flash and Mushroom cloud you're dead. There is no safe distance.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:55 | 1734940 Mike2756
Mike2756's picture

Ass to the blast, supposed to work, so we were told.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:11 | 1735220 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

That just allows them to identify you so they know what Bank accounts to steal.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 21:04 | 1735357 Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

Yes, and stay down anticipating the first "and" second powerful shock wave!

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:54 | 1734938 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture



By "distance" you of course mean from a fallout bunker located on an adjacent planet...


Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:00 | 1734956 ZeroAffect
ZeroAffect's picture

Kiss, that was my take. The clowns in CONgress just 'rubber-stamp' any legislation tptb want to inflict upon us and would be very surprised to learn if it contained anything helpful. 

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:16 | 1735012 BORT
BORT's picture

Senatior Smoot; meet Representative Hawley

History doesn't repeat, but it rhymes


The Tariff Act of 1930, otherwise known as the Smoot–Hawley Tariff (P.L. 71-361)[1] was an act, sponsored by United States Senator Reed Smoot and Representative Willis C. Hawley, and signed into law on June 17, 1930, that raised U.S. tariffs on over 20,000 imported goods to record levels.[2]

The overall level tariffs under the Tariff were the second-highest in U.S. history, exceeded by a small margin only by the Tariff of 1828[3] and the ensuing retaliatory tariffs by U.S. trading partners reduced American exports and imports by more than half.

Most economists at the time and since agree that it had a negative effect on the economy. After the 1929 stock market crash unemployment never reached double digits in any of the 12 months following that event, peaking at 9 percent, then drifted downwards until it reached 6.3 percent in June 1930. Then the federal government made its first major intervention in the economy with the Smoot-Hawley tariff. After that intervention the downward movement of unemployment rates reversed and shot up far beyond the level it had reached in the wake of the stock market crash hitting 11.6 percent in November 1930

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:13 | 1735225 Dangertime
Dangertime's picture

The Fed's created the money to create inflation....but China isn't working with us....


Looks like we have to create our own inflation, by tariffs.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:27 | 1735245 Gadfly
Gadfly's picture

In 1940 the U.S. placed an embargo on Japan by prohibiting exports of steel, scrap iron, and aviation fuel to Japan.  In 1941 the U.S. froze Japanese assets.  In December 1941, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.  I just love our idiotic politicians and the way they insist on having history repeat itself.  That's real vision, real leadership.  They are going to lead us right off the fucking cliff... again.  

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 21:17 | 1735403 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

NEWSFLASH - We left the top of the cliff some time back.   We're in a pack of lemmings in freefall, looking at the other lemmings and thinking that if they fall faster. we'll be OK.  But eventually, we're all going 'SPLAT!'

Tue, 10/04/2011 - 00:52 | 1736049 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

The last few lemmings fall might be cushioned by ther dead bodies below

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:47 | 1734912 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

MR's were reduced for Soybeans. 

Pile into soybeans? /sarc

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:58 | 1734950 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

I am going to load up on Soy Sauce.  Kikkomen's.  I think I will make a fortune. 

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:45 | 1734913 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

We have to vote on the bill so we can find out what's in it.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:49 | 1734928 MSJChE
MSJChE's picture

OH that's painful.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:20 | 1735024 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Dr. Engali

No,No,No,No......................................We have to PASS the Bill to see what's in it!!.

(Vouchers for rubber gloves, and KY Jelly).

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:46 | 1734916 rich_maverick
rich_maverick's picture

Marvelous!  Why not just remove magins altogether and make them all cash markets?...  This slow drip change is just annoying.  At 100%, people would just demand delivery and end this joke of a futures market.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:49 | 1734929 Out9922
Out9922's picture

Patience young grasshopper

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:38 | 1735295 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

+1.  It's all manipulation of paper, not underlying commodity

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:47 | 1734917 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Do your worst you scam-artist CME fucks!  I own PHYSICAL!!

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:50 | 1734931 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

Bring it on bitches. The sooner you use up all your ammo, the sooner PMs are going to the moon.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:55 | 1734939 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

PM's are not going to the Moon. They are going to infinity (and beyond). No one is going to trade PM's for worthless fiat paper Bennie Bucks.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:59 | 1734947 fonestar
fonestar's picture

I've come to believe this myself.  We will NEVER determine the true value of Gold and Silver in USD, period!  It is just too much of a political issue, they will pull out every last dirty trick they have in the book before the manipulators themselves implode.  I am purchasing for value, a value that will only be determined under a different monetary regime.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:47 | 1735319 Salamanda
Salamanda's picture

You're quite right Fonestar... the time is fast approaching where Au vs USD will be some irrelevant 'Zimbarbwian' figure and the true value conversion/equivalent will be measured in Au vs Hard Asset (whether that be property, food, industrial commodities, even 'sweat equity' (the purchasing of an individual's labor).

The environment we will all find ourselves in at this point in time will be a paradym shift away from what we know today.... all in all, quite likely a good thing too.



Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:52 | 1734934 moskov
moskov's picture

US accusing China manipulates currency?


US droped the gold standard is the biggest currency scandal ever and it's the reason why the world of finance is being set up to fail like today.


Like Nixson said my money, your problem.


China can say the same thing and do the same until all US BOND bubble pops. Just like US droped a million dollars worth bomb onto a 3 dollar worth Vietnanese mansion. Who's lost the most, you know 

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:07 | 1734983 jm
jm's picture

Stupid is what our govenrment is good at.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 23:43 | 1735883 merizobeach
merizobeach's picture

Those bombs are GDP points, you know.  The more bombs dropped, the more built to be next.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:55 | 1734941 reachsb
reachsb's picture

Can't wait for another margin hike in Gold and Silver. It's going to be a 100% physical market at this rate. That's going to f-up the price fixing of PMs. And without that, what use is Blythe to her employer??

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:24 | 1735254 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

British blow bag.


Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:55 | 1734942 Youri Carma
Youri Carma's picture
US blocks F16 sale to Taiwan

Officials in Taiwan have criticised the US decision not to sell them new and more powerful F16 fighter jets, accusing the Obama administration of bowing to Chinese pressure.

Meanwhile, a US congressional panel is set to question top officials over the deal this week.

More physical gold to serve as collateral: CME

Gold? Sure, We’ll Take More of That, Says CME

The step is the latest in a string of moves by exchanges and other financial services firms to increase the use of gold as collateral, which essentially places the precious metal in the top tier of asset classes .

It was back in October 2009 that the CME Group announced it would allow physical gold to be used as collateral for margin requirements. Rival IntercontinentalExchange Inc. followed suit in November 2010.

Then last February, J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. also said it would start accepting physical gold as collateral in some financial transactions.

Meanwhile, the World Gold Council also is gaining traction in its push to have the Basel Committee on Banking Supervision accept the precious metal as a Tier-1 asset for banks, along with government bonds and currencies.

Market participants say such moves are re-establishing gold’s role as a monetary and financial asset .

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 18:58 | 1734951 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture



Here's your Chinese lesson for the day:

"No Bai Dam Ting"

Translation: Your Bond prices are too high...

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:03 | 1734960 Squishi
Squishi's picture

Ni bùnéng ji xi de wùli

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:19 | 1735021 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

Hum chuck

Tue, 10/04/2011 - 00:21 | 1735981 merizobeach
merizobeach's picture

I think we understand the physics of these markets and governments well enough.  In English, we have the brilliantly insightful word, 'ponzi'.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:00 | 1734955 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 is this " Sanford and Son" , the Effin trade is in the box!

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:02 | 1734962 user2011
user2011's picture

I am puzzled.    So, CME hike the copper to hurt China ?  But JPM has been caught hoarding copper.   Won't that also hurt JPM ?

I did not know that China was buying all the call for copper, but with the margin hike, it will also hurt Brazil.    We are definitely not making friends with two of the most growth countries.

Meanwhile, oil is tanking.  I am sure the OPEC and Russia aren't happy either.   Boy,  we sure know how to piss everyone off.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:07 | 1734982 junkyardjack
junkyardjack's picture

I've seen stories about how people use copper for collateral in China for a variety of purchases so if the price of copper tumbles then they get margin hike which since China is a fake economy no one will be able to pay and the farse will be done.  

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:04 | 1734967 koot
koot's picture

Federal Government of North America declared war on the US many years ago.  The most stupid thing about that is, the Federal Government does not know it yet, they still think they are the US.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:57 | 1735342 Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

Wrong.  The international banking cartel and the worldwide corporate fascist state declared war on humanity!

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 22:17 | 1735606 LongSoupLine
LongSoupLine's picture

And to clarify even further, the "international banking cartel" leadership would be...Goldman Sacks.

The wheels on the bus go round and round...


Tue, 10/04/2011 - 00:56 | 1736053 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

Rothschilds and Hapsburgs

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:05 | 1734971 Sambo
Sambo's picture

This is all posturing. US will do everything to prevent a chinese implosion. China is I think being propped up to be the next numero uno economic superpower within 10 years.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:06 | 1734973 DonutBoy
DonutBoy's picture

China is a net importer of copper.  They're probably orchestrating the margin increases, a price drop while they're out purchasing mines is just the thing.

The Senate's only going to encourage them to spend those dollars on hard assets somewhere.

We're kind of stupid.


Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:10 | 1734991 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Great avatar! You have a creative mind. I like that!  +1

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:06 | 1734975 markar
markar's picture

to the idiot who said silver is going to $20, good look finding any physical at that price.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:21 | 1735028 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 XAG isn't going to 20!  My contracts have me well off their highs. My break even is in the mid 20's.


    I was raised to tell the [ TRUTH ]     

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:55 | 1735337 Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

I "think" he was the same idiot that said it would break under 30!

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:06 | 1734976 Belarus
Belarus's picture

If we get the "Oopsie" moment, and China unloads treasury's, and they very well may as they soon start pouring trillions into their local banking system and SPV's as their capital gets wiped out, expect to see an immediate 50% drop in stocks, immediate debt monetiaztion from the Federal Reserve (two trillion or so), and gold to hit 9,000 an ounce isnjust a few short days time. 

This is what the chaos that will soon be heading our way will look like. For diversifiaction sakes, I'll go short treasuries the day China begins to sell in droves. 

Ah.....the power of game theory, where nothing else matters. Especially fundamentals......but, but, but, BTFD: corporate balance sheets are strong. ROFLMAO. 

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:08 | 1734978 agent default
agent default's picture

Silver longs on margin are back at March 2009 levels. At this point there are not many weak hands left in the silver market.

On to the important news: TRADE WAR

You know how this will end in the long run, go long lead and bombs.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:06 | 1734979 DeadOnArrival
DeadOnArrival's picture long until we see a MSM piece on GM?  The stock (a U.S. Treasury subsidiary no less) never recovered from its IPO afterparty and has been in a virtual death spiral ever since.  And surely gasoline retreating back to $3 per gallon won't help the VOLT!  Warning: clear any sharp objects from your area before viewing the monthly chart

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:07 | 1734984 Christoph830
Christoph830's picture

Scapegoat, anyone?


Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:10 | 1734990 jarrollin
jarrollin's picture

I love these politicians.  They're so clueless.  I don't even think they know what to disagree on anymore.  The danger in that is their good cop/bad cop routine will lose its traction.  Then how will they role play?  

These margins on PMs are hysterical.  Which of these dim witted candy asses really understands the tactic behind it?  

BTW, did I get a chance to vote on that?  I don't remember it being an issue.



Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:55 | 1735165 agent default
agent default's picture

I want them to set margins to zero, and ban all unallocated contracts trading.  Let's see how much their fiat is worth.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:11 | 1734993 The4thStooge
The4thStooge's picture

nice, some more action in the trade wars. china's turn to fire back? how do we front-run it?

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:12 | 1734994 chump666
chump666's picture

This is gonna be a wild ride.  China re-pegs the Yuan, and you bet they will if the contiued out flows of Yuan selling contiues.  Boom! You have a widespread trade war with the US

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:28 | 1735057 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 The Yuan is under valued by 40% , chump666. I always appreciate your rational input! Just like BUZZ, C-DAD, Snowball, Slewie , and all the rest! There are a few good women out there as well. ( don't want to ego build)

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:13 | 1735001 hausmzk
hausmzk's picture

and the SHFE is closed all week, and the govt over there is urging everyone to take 9 days off for National Holiday. stop working!!

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:14 | 1735004 hausmzk
hausmzk's picture

and the SHFE is closed all week, and the govt over there is urging everyone to take 9 days off for National Holiday. stop working!!

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:17 | 1735016 SeventhCereal
SeventhCereal's picture

America can play all the paper games they want, but these futures contracts have an expiration date and the americans and their website economy is scared to death to take delivery.  China will ultimately control the price.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:18 | 1735019 user2011
user2011's picture

Another thought,  will CME really hike the silver and gold again ?   SGE and CME hiked the margin, gold and silver dropped like a stone, but physical gold and silver were flying off the shelves.   Demand did not drop as the paper gold and silver dip.    People were actually buying on the dip.    Having people putting money into physical is not what the gov and Fed wants.     I suspect they may not do it.     If they do it again, either European, China and India will buy out whatever PM they could get their hands on,  or even US people will cash out their equity and buy physical silver and gold.  

I am guessing FED want to force people to put money into Equity.   They don't want people to buy physical silver and gold.   However, I think the gove wants to kill all other commodities ( oil, corn, copper, etc ) so that inflation won't hit that hard. 

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 21:38 | 1735466 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

You have to wonder:  HOW STUPID ARE WE?

We're so preoccipued with trying to make things LOOK better that they're hastening the collapse.  We're ENCOURAGING  China to dump paper dollars and - as a bonus are selling them GOLD and SILVER at a discount. 

Or maybe all our leaders are 'Manchurian Candidates' - deliberately destroying the US at CHina's behest - I mean we GAVE them our industrial base in exchange for cheap labor....  shipped whole factories tthere.  We willingly give them technology developed here because otherwise they won't buy any of the few things we still make here.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:20 | 1735023 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

the usa CONgreff lost the trade/currency war to china ten years ago. too damn little, too damn late.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:24 | 1735036 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

What are the political ramifications of a Greek default? Loss of ports in the Med?

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:43 | 1735116 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

political ramifications internally, or externally? assuming you mean external between greece and the world, or the larger picture, i.e. between europe and the other major powers? complicated. personally i am hoping for some real bad will all the way around so i say severe haircuts for everyone and the squid take the hindmost.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:19 | 1735238 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Excellent  question BUZZ. Only you could ask the question! A good man you are. I think you have tought me, as opposed to questioning a idea! Good on you my friend.

                                                                        You are Brilliant! BUZZ

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:24 | 1735040 pleseus
pleseus's picture

This all smells to high heaven.  They are trying to crush commodities.  I think we get a QE3 mention from Bernake any day now.  He doesn't want the dollar to get any stronger. 

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:32 | 1735075 boom goes the d...
boom goes the dynamite's picture

it's no longer uncle ben's call, he's a bystander now

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:34 | 1735083 DosZap
DosZap's picture


They are trying to crush commodities

Stop and think about it bro.

They are doing exactly the opposite.

All they are doing is allowing Physical holders to BTD.

Everytime they raise the margins, you get a chance at a DISCOUNT.


In an effort to stop the inevitable, your speeding up what your trying to stop.

No Workee.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:25 | 1735043 Chappaquiddick
Chappaquiddick's picture

When the fuck is PAGE opening its doors?  On that day the CFTC can go penetrate Jim Cramers bottom for all I care because we'll be free of them - their day will be done, over, gone and certainly not missed.

Anyone have dates?  Anyone have dates for the silver exchange too?


Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:28 | 1735055 reader2010
reader2010's picture

Dr Copper says hard-landing again?

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:30 | 1735067 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

It doesn't really matter what happens to PM longs - they are trading paper. What matters is that if you are a holder of physical PM, just sit tight and if things really dip, add to your stash. This won't be over quickly, but soon.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:31 | 1735072 The Fonz...befo...
The Fonz...before shark jump's picture

Bring it on! What can they do when margin requirements hits 100% and the underlying commodity is still running up?

Next move then will be making it illegal to own physical...(or taxing heavily such assets) they will get desperate but they are only as strong as the police/military members last pay stub....

When their currency becomes one will shed a drop of pepper spray to try and protect them

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:32 | 1735079 DonutBoy
DonutBoy's picture

From Reuters

"My colleagues, both Democrats and Republicans, agree that China's deliberate actions to devalue its currency give its goods an unfair competitive advantage in the marketplace," said Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid.

That takes some balls! I didn't know Harry had it in him. I'm sure the Chinese will appreciate a week of Senate debate about how they're manipulating the yuan.


Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:41 | 1735111 DosZap
DosZap's picture

DoNut Boy,

No that doesn't take BALLS,doing this before we got screwed into the gound would have taken balls.

It's like showing up for the gang fight, after it's over,you arrive and pounding your chest saying how BAD it would have been if ONLY I had been here!

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:32 | 1735080 fdisk
fdisk's picture

"Copper Set To Tumble" Did you even care to ask yourself

a question, why they are doing that, while price collapsing

even without margin hike? Well, they attempting to grab

real stuff 50% OFF, while still printing money, they know

that drunks like you won't figure it out.. Commodity collapse

Horse sh*t.. DUllah ($) got about 800 more pips to live, before

tanking to 70, after Bernank massive QE3.. Time frame Dec-JAN

unless Bernank decides to move in earlier.. Good luck, keep


P.S 14+ T$ debt couldn't sustain higher Dollar..

Either die now or print and get yourself nice "transplantation"

enough to run this show for another 5-10+ years..

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:37 | 1735097 DosZap
DosZap's picture
  fdisk ,

P.S 14+ T$ debt couldn't sustain higher Dollar..


Nope, and neither did the 16 TRILLION Big B spent OFF the books, w/out Congressional approval.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:35 | 1735091 fdisk
fdisk's picture

F*cking US treasuries/bonds asking for trouble already. Keep loading up on this sh*t...

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:38 | 1735101 RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

TLT going vertical like an Internet stock these days.

Can't wait until it runs out of steam.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:37 | 1735096 RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

Margin hikes on PM's won't do any good. 

Its almost a cash market now anyway, all the specs are long gone

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:38 | 1735102 loveyajimbo
loveyajimbo's picture

Those CME toxic scum inhalers are the same as the Gensler led CFTC Capos... total criminals... China should not mind, doesn't the CME accept US Bonds as collateral?  I hear China still has a few...


I think this is the end-game... if the CME/CFTC hemmoroids can get silver and gold down far enough ($20 silver or so), they will do the switcheroo and go long, all shorts covered and away we go.


China's currency IS undervalued, so the hell with them... it is MY gold and silver that we all should be worried about!!   :-)

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:42 | 1735110 loveyajimbo
loveyajimbo's picture

Jamie Dimon needs to spend several years in the jug getting his backside margin call every night...

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:56 | 1735118 T-Bond
T-Bond's picture

China has a 5000 year history of doing some bizzare stuff, even to their own people. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if they woke up one day and decided to be a huge sellar of TYS. After all the US TYS market is the biggest bubble in the history of the world. I just hope I'm short when it happens.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:55 | 1735156 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

So 79 out of 100 senators think China manipulates their currency to a greater extent than the US? Jesus...

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:58 | 1735176 T-Bond
T-Bond's picture

As in the pot calling the kettle black with a straight face at that.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:55 | 1735336 bid the soldier...
bid the soldiers shoot's picture

I didn't know we had 79 senators who could think. Kool.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:57 | 1735174 Silverhog
Silverhog's picture

Hard to agree with Robotrader on margin hikes. But it a physical market now. Probably a better barometer.   

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:10 | 1735192 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

I tell those who hold PM's hold it Physical. Don't do anything.

I say to those who are with cash, BUY PM's as they drop. The cheaper they go, the more you should buy. But be careful, Silver has a history of bouncing 6 dollars in a few minutes when a hard bottom is hit on paper side.


If the Silver breaks 25 and goes to 20. That's it everyone will buy. And one's and two's will vanish as truck loads roll the Dealers dry faster than the US Mint can keep up. Once that happens, those who hold paper are worthless and those who have not done anything still has some money.



All year I have seen nothing but hike, hike hike hike.... PHOOEY. They can beat a dead numb horse with more hikes. Just price that ASE 1000.00 already and see who has the capital to drain the supply. It's quite possible to be out of physical metal and unable to complete the trade or demands for physical. That will start happening in the near future.

If they did take me up and raise the ounce to 1000 via margin hikes or whatever on ASE, they can expect to be drained by those who sell a few coins and reap immense profit to quickly and agility move into other targets of oppertunity. These will be our future Captians of Industry when it's all over.

Disclosure, I got out of metals at 46- and 1650 and now am simply waiting until sub 1200 and 20.


Should have gotten in decades ago at 5 and 250 but the siren song of the 401k push via employers was too loud.


What really cracks me up is when we start sending space ships with collectors to skim off pounds of the minerals that exist in all the Universe and bring it back to earth, the precious will be common as sand.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:14 | 1735229 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  Of topic? What ever happened to the good doctor and / FUKISHIMA?

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:21 | 1735246 Blorf
Blorf's picture

They didn't lower treasury or ES margins?  Gotta get more peeps in on the ponzi

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:42 | 1735305 Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

Platinum is 15 times more scarce than gold yet gold is $160 per ounce more expensive than platinum.  If you can find some brilliant uncirculated Platinum American Eagles or Platinum Maple Leafs  or one ounce platinum bars consider buying them.  Yes, yes, I know platinum is an industrial metal but hell it is 15 times more scarce than gold.  This price disparity between these two precious metals makes no sense in the long run! 

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 20:44 | 1735312 Blorf
Blorf's picture

I was thinking about a long plat short gold trade a few weeks ago but didn't.  And the spread keeps widening!  Anything associated with economic growth is getting dragged down... plat and silver included.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 22:27 | 1735638 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

Plat is in Emissions on car exhaust.

That is why those things in the coverter cost so much.

The cars are piling up in the lots unsold.


I think refiners use it too.


Bullion Direct has a bunch ready to go at your call.


(I don't work for BD)

Tue, 10/04/2011 - 02:39 | 1736183 slackrabbit
slackrabbit's picture

Although I am short copper, I cant help but think the use of CME as a foreign policy stick to beat china with.

The eu is already failing, so if they can get china to have a hard landing before the US blows up, then last man standing winds.....

Tue, 10/04/2011 - 07:16 | 1736372 MFL8240
MFL8240's picture

Price fixing, manipulation, and outright fraud.   Treasuries the most risky investments behind Stocks have had margin reductions while gold confiscation and Silver detruction is the target of these motherfuckers.  This country is doomed unless we flush out the shit in DC and Chicago.

Wed, 10/12/2011 - 14:27 | 1766584 karmete
karmete's picture

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