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The Cost Of Obama's Stimulus Plan: $312,500 Per Job (Vote) Created Or Saved (And Guess Who Is Paying It)

Tyler Durden's picture




 

For those eager to put some math to the rhetoric coming from the White House over the president's jobs creation plan, and that should be everyone, here is a quick and dirty estimate based on the numbers being thrown around of a 2% GDP increase in year 1 and 1.9 million jobs created or saved... most saved, as in those you can't really quantify. Said otherwise, roughly a $300 billion increase in GDP yields 1.9 million jobs. So far so good.  Now since the president is proposing to pay for the program over 10 years, let's assume the $475 billion in direct expenses is financed for 10 years at 2.5% which adds roughly $120 billion to the total cost of the program. In other words, as the calculations detailed and show below elaborate, the overall AJA plan will cost $250,000 per job created (excluding the interest expense) and $312,500 per union job, er job created (including interest). And that's how much it costs for Obama to purchase one vote... created or saved. Keynesian efficiency strikes like a Swiss watch yet again.

As for the just as troubling question of who ends up footing the bill of this "fully paid" for stimulus act, here are the details.

Earlier today, the OMB director Jack Lew gave some so far largely missing information when he laid out how the president plans on paying for the Stimulus Act (http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/WhiteHouseDailyBriefing1719). Specifically, Obama and his advisors believe they are "over achieving" by raising more ($467 bn) over 10yrs to pay for the jobs package now.
 
So on an annual basis, tax increases will be as follows: (86% limit of itemized deductions, 4% hedge fund managers, 8.6% oil & gas, 0.6% Corp Jets)
 
                                                                                        Per Year (Beg Jan 2013)
1) Itemized Deductions (ie $250k or higher income                       $40.0 bn
2) Hedge Fund managers                                                            $  1.8 bn
3) Oil & Gas Industry                                                                  $  4.0 bn
4) Corp Jet Depreciation                                                              $ 300 mm

The answer:  THE JOBS BILL WILL BE PAID FOR EXCLUSIVELY BY TAX INCREASES (NO SPENDING CUTS)
 
(1) Limit on Itemized Deductions for those making above $200k & Families above $250 k  ==> will raise $400 bn over 10yrs ($40 bn/yr) (because you know anyone making over $200k is very wealthy)
 
(2) Taxing Carried Interest as Ordinary Income ==> will raise $18 bn over 10yrs ($1.8 bn / yr)
 
(3) Removing Oil & Gas Industry tax breaks ==> $40 bn over 10yrs ($4 bn / yr)
 
(4) Removing the favorable depreciation for Corp Jets (currently 5 yr depreciation) so it is the same as Commercial Jets (7yr depreciation)  ==> $3 bn over 10yrs ($300 mm per yr)

 

So, Keynesian effiency aside where the IRR on any new job creation is so negative our excel #Refs out, our far more important question is... how does anyone think this proposal has any hope of passage in a Republican controlled House?

Courtesy of John Poehling

 

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Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:20 | 1661891 Peter_Griffin
Peter_Griffin's picture

Sounds like a good deal.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:42 | 1661928 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

If you're in a union it's one hell of a deal. A lot of communities will be able to stop gap their budgets another year and keep their union workers.

On the bright side, it's another year without the cops going rogue and demanding tribute like they do down in Mexico.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:53 | 1662522 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

I prefer another TARP so I can save foreign banker jobs and not even Know it

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 00:02 | 1662550 eisley79
eisley79's picture

i am very anti-obama, but keep the math the same, you cant look at only first year job creation, and then 10 years of paying it.  If you look at the 10 years, you would have to look at the supposed 10 years of job creation as well.

 

That being said, you cant stimulate a dead economy, real job creation wont occur until the debts cleaned out of the system.  So, his job plan at most will slow the rate of job losses, not create more. 

 

But keep zerohedge on the facts, and dont delve into political propagandizing.  His plan doesnt even deserve a mathematical break down, cause its doomed to fail, weak numerical arguments just give the sheep room to argue...

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 03:02 | 1662761 Michael
Michael's picture

There will never again be real job creation in the USA thanks to NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT/WTO. The politicians shot themselves in the foot by passing  that un-fair trade garbage.

Job creation will only occur in the US again when the US eventually defaults on its debt and the rest of the world cuts this dead beat nation off from trade with them.

When the US is forced to manufacture for itself the shit it wants like shoes, socks, bicycles, and microwave ovens, that's when good jobs will be created, but not until then.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 04:32 | 1662820 Michael
Michael's picture

Here's Ron Paul in 6/21/2000 C-SPAN, for a refresher course in unconstitutional trade agreements.

Ron Paul: "This is the size of the WTO treaty"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuFQ1RZ5nqY&feature=related

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 06:06 | 1662864 Tell me lies
Tell me lies's picture

Michael, RP is not a zion bootlick. He has no chance and his ties to Carnival barker jones just kills his cred.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 07:46 | 1662971 A.W.E.S.O.M.-O 4000
A.W.E.S.O.M.-O 4000's picture

That's still better than the negative 30,000 created by the Fed giving $15 Trillion to the very people who engineered this crisis.

 

But as my wife always says, what the fuck do I know.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 08:03 | 1663017 sensei
sensei's picture

dwdollar said

On the bright side, it's another year without the cops going rogue and demanding tribute like they do down in Mexico.

We're getting awfully close to that situation.  This weekend my wife was a passenger in a car that got pulled over.  The cop issued my wife a ticket for not having her seatbelt on.  This was despite the fact that she clearly had her seatbelt on and had since she entered the vehicle.  The cop refused to listen and issued the ticket anyway.  It's an accusation that's impossible to fight in court.  You either pay it or get a warrant issued for your arrest. 

It's a little more refined than Mexican style extortion, but it's still harassment and extortion. 

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 09:22 | 1663239 citta vritti
citta vritti's picture

so why can't I green up arrow you?

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 11:03 | 1663659 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

The cop should have a dash cam of the stop...  (at the very least).  Call the records department at the police station and get a copy.  If they don't have a copy or it was destroyed, use it against his credibility.  Also ask for a copy of the police report, if any.  Again, if there is none, use it against his crediblity.  If there were other passengers, have them testify.

Set the thing for a hearing...  it probably won't take 15 minutes (but you might wait hours to get on).

If you don't have anything better to do or it's just one of those principle things, then go plead not guilty and rock and roll...  before you do, might want to inquire as to the cost difference for having a trial in case you lose.

The thing about kangaroo courts, THEY HATE IT WHEN YOU FIGHT...  even if you lose, THEY HATE IT.  And, sometimes, you catch a favorable judge or whatever...

My advice is to talk to the prosecutor, get it reduced to a city ordinance violation or the like (just ensure it isn't going on your record) and pay the fine...  unless it's just outrageous (which I've seen that too, but I'm guessing sub $100).  Keep your nose clean for 6 months.  Game on.

PS, NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER get a ticket on your record.  The cops will give you a ticket EVERY TIME after that.

PS2, you can get creative with FOIA if you really want to push (e.g. any disciplinary actions against the issuing officer, etc.)

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 20:51 | 1665705 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

I feel your pain. I hate stupid laws like the seatbelt laws. I think it is one of the most corrupting facets of our law enforcement, the raiding of the public for money. On any given day in any major city you could issue 50,000 tickets. The primary purpose of traffic stops is revenue generation. If you don't believe that then ask how often is the driving truly "dangerous" and if there was no fine how many stops would be made? Couldn't the officers who are theoretically our friends and neighbors just give warnings for the offense?

I drive about 50k miles per year and I rarely go six months or more without some kind of traffic stop. I carry radar detectors in all my cars and I recommend them to all my fellow citizens. You have to defend yourself from the State. Even if you consider yourself a safe reasonable driver (and I do) you have to give yourself warning so you can check your speed so you don't get caught not paying attention. Your insurance company loves tickets too as they are an excuse to issue massive rate increases. It's a sort of partnership with the State.

The other side of this issue is that we have to give up writing infinite amounts of "rules" versus laws. I define laws as things that protect person, property and natural rights. Rules do none of those but are things that are simply deemed good for us. It could be making salt illegal in NY, seatbelt rules, helmet rules, virtually all business rules that stomp on the 1st Amendment, etc. We enslave each other with a web of these stupid things and we give the State and its police forces reasons to apprehend, harass and fine us.

Say whatever you want about any corporation or business but they don't have the power to arrest, fine, harass and rule you...at least not without the cooperation of a government we have ceded those powers to.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:43 | 1661966 kill switch
kill switch's picture

And the interviews are where??

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:50 | 1661992 MiguelitoRaton
MiguelitoRaton's picture

The costs will also be offset by the taxes paid by the newly employed (revenue) and the savings (reduced unemployment for those newly employed)....for maybe 9 months and then they are all unemployed again and the nation has a huge debt to repay....sigh. It all sounds so good when Obummer says it, reality sucks folks.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:41 | 1662157 erg
erg's picture

Ya just gotta love those saved jobs. Based on some ephemeral, misty-eyed metric.

Meanwhile the whole house of cards shivers with abuse and neglect.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:10 | 1662415 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

You'd think they'd learn at some point. Portugal tried creating jobs by building roads and bridges to stimulate its economy. The result was that an economy that couldn't sustain itself before the building still couldn't sustain itself after the building, funny old thing, and the Portuguese Government had to contend with riots when they were eventually forced to introduce tolls on those same new roads paid for by taxpayers to raise new funds to maintain and repair them.

Utterly fucking stupid, but what can you do to stop these cretins when your rights have been taken away through law such as the Patriot and anti terrorism Acts?

Like it or not, terrorism is the only solution for a true patriot of whatever nationality in a world where the little guy has no say whatsoever...

Perhaps we need to rethink about the spin we are fed through the press.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:45 | 1662174 jakethesnake76
jakethesnake76's picture

oh yes the old perpetual motion Keynesian machine i forgot how that worked lol

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:18 | 1662256 berlinjames02
berlinjames02's picture

I was waiting for a post like this. After O-bama presented the idea, I pulled out my handy TI-82 and performed 2 quick calcualtions:

1) $447 billion / 330 million = $1,354 per PERSON in the US. Thus, a family of four's portion of this wonderful plan is about $5,400.

2) $447 billion / $14.3 trillion = 3.1%. If all this money is spent, it would provide that much 'stimulus' to the economy. The funniest part about this calculation is Mark Zandi came out and said he predicted the bill would provide 2% growth. How's that for a Keynesian multiplier effect??

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:37 | 1662485 Augustus
Augustus's picture

There should be an additional step.  what percentage of the families of four are paying taxes?  That is about 50%.  So the TAXPAYER Familhy of Four will have a bill for nearly $11,000, before compound interest.  That would be enough to set up a real nice college fund at birth for one of those children. 

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:52 | 1662530 rufusbird
rufusbird's picture

Perhaps in the future, Presidential candidates should have to pass a basic math abilities test.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 00:00 | 1662545 Mike2756
Mike2756's picture

Graft + jobs = votes.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 03:37 | 1662792 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Yeah I think politicians understand math quite well.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 01:15 | 1662655 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

I thought it was just me. Spending $450 bln (3% of GDP) to get $300 bln (or 2% GDP growth) didn't add up. If this doesn't demonstrate the black hole of government spending, then I don't know what will. Of course peoples are not so good with the maths.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 01:15 | 1662656 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

I thought it was just me. Spending $450 bln (3% of GDP) to get $300 bln (or 2% GDP growth) didn't add up. If this doesn't demonstrate the black hole of government spending, then I don't know what will. Of course peoples are not so good with the maths.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 03:45 | 1662796 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Technically there is a cumulative growth over ten years with two percent additional growth compounded annually, so the real math for you math challenged people doesnt look quite that bad.

However the inefficiency drag of having government make capital allocation decisions means that we will actually grow less than if the government had allowed price signals to allocate capital, so the whole thing is a joke and makes us worse off, in ways not visible.

Of course the smiling union faces and puff pieces in the nightly news about a family getting a stimulus job will be highly visible.

I get it now that there is no hope. Our fate is sealed. It is just a matter of timing.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 01:49 | 1662698 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

Instead if just 10% of working citizens out of 300M donated $1000 per person you'd have 30,000,000 x 1,000 = $30BILLION to donate to a presidential candidate of their choice to get rid of banksters, illegal aliens, an dbring the middle class back.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 08:27 | 1663082 JohnF
JohnF's picture

Doesn't quite add up: there are 330mn US residents of all ages - not citzens all, mind you, and I've included estimates for the illegals - and around 155mn workers. Hence you'd have $15.5bn.

You can transfer that to my Caymans account. Thanks! :-)

Seriously: even $100 per worker would get you $1.55 bn. Then again, that's probably what the Democrats will spend in their attempt to get President Obama re-elected...

 

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 01:19 | 1662663 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

So it's that easy!?!? All we had to do is hire teachers and firefighters and build some schools and the whole damn economy will recover? Really?!? Next time maybe we hire plumbers and auto mechanics and build day spas and then the whole economy will recover. After that I think janitors and chemical engineers while building playgrounds. Still, perhaps some farmhands and insurance salesman while building more outhouses. This economic stimulus thing is so easy even a child can do it! Who would've thought?

Let's cut all SS taxes, all Medicare taxes, no gas taxes and double Federal spending, too! This stuff is easy when you don't have to balance the books. We are a AAA credit rating always. I heard Obama and Timmy say it.

Seriously, this stuff is so completely, stupendously, moronically, collosally, thoroughly stupid that only utopian dumb ass keynesian modern liberals could believe it.

We are circling the drain, my liberty oriented friends. The dumb asses are in charge and they think they are brilliant. This is what happens when you give stupid people power over you...all the way from the TSA groper to the dumb ass egotist in chief. The greatest lie in history is that we need people to rule us.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 02:14 | 1662715 NumNutt
NumNutt's picture

God almighty, please put a 20,000 gigawatt bolt of lightning in Obama's ass......Amen...

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 20:53 | 1665713 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Could we have most his staff standing near in a puddle of water, too, lol?

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:29 | 1683264 Jena
Jena's picture

Uhm, and President Biden?

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:22 | 1661895 greased up deaf guy
greased up deaf guy's picture

it's craptacular.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:55 | 1662011 pods
pods's picture

Doubleplusgood!

pods

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:50 | 1662184 erg
erg's picture

Awesome. I've used this too. From where is it? Parsing...Bart. A perfectly crommulent word, unpossible.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:50 | 1662337 greased up deaf guy
greased up deaf guy's picture

yes :). i'm too lazy to look up the specific episode. i believe it was the christmas one where bart accidentally burned the tree down and melted their gifts. crommulent indeed.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:23 | 1661897 treemagnet
treemagnet's picture

I'm gonna have to let Obama go, I just can't afford him any longer.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:57 | 1662020 max2205
max2205's picture

It's time to kill the term 'created or saved' like we killed ' hope and change'

Thank you very much

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:12 | 1662244 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Green for treemagnet and max.

You're welcome!

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 00:35 | 1662471 TexasAggie
TexasAggie's picture

Jobs saved is the same as proving a negative; both are impossible.  In addiiton, on Follow the Money tonight, a spokeman for Center for Progress (A liberal tank-George Soros backed) kept saying that the CBO had come out with numbers touting the jobs saved by the previous 847B stimulus.  However, I don't have the numbers, but I'm sure some of hte smart people can get the numbers and this should be used in all campaign ads next yr: Jan 2009, total number of jobs in the US, Aug 2011 - total number of jobs.  How can you have saved jobs at $847B when several million less have jobs.

  BLS numbers Total Civilian Employed Unemployed Not in Labor Force Grand total Jan-09 142099 11616 81023 234738 Jan-10 138333 14837 83663 236833 Jan-11 139323 13863 85518 238704 1-Aug 139627 13967 86278 239872

2.3MM less jobs, and 5MM more not in labor force (this does not include the partially working - looking for full-time work).

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 09:28 | 1663267 citta vritti
citta vritti's picture

Announcer - "And what do we have for our lucky prize winner today?"

Mrs. Kresge - "But, but, this is nothing but a piece of shit."

Announcer - "Yes. But it's great shit, Mrs. Kresge."

Firesign Theater

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:12 | 1662245 JohnG
JohnG's picture

No shit.  Watch the producers go Galt.  It's already happenning in my neck of the woods.

Fuck it, why try anymore.  It'll just cost more blood, sweat and tears, and it's just not worth it.

 

I'm waiting for the elections...if O'fuckmy children gets reelected (Iand I think he will UNFORTUNATLY), that's it, I close it all, jobs GONE forever, cash out and leave. Done.

Fucking tired of this shit I am, and I'm not the only one by a long shot.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:25 | 1662277 berlinjames02
berlinjames02's picture

O-bama is a fucking idiot. The dumb ass can't see that he's created the unemployment mess because of healthcare. It's painfully obvious to every business owner. Why hire anyone when the costs of healthcare are so uncertain?? I had dinner with my father and his accountant a couple weeks ago. That was their concensus after talking with their small business colleagues.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:29 | 1662291 JohnG
JohnG's picture

I cannot disagree.  This is just plain idiocy.  I'm about done.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 01:24 | 1662672 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

It's not just the healthcare. It's everything. See me earlier post. Whatever can move away from the USA will move and the rest will suffer and slowly die. The tax code will have a million pages of extra taxes and counter it with tax incentives, like hiring left handed, paraplegic, minority, unemployed more than six months on Tuesday...but not if they are asian ambidexterous, IQ more than 102, born on odd numbered months as an except to paragraph...

Remember, though, it's all designed by geniuses and its good for us...or else.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:33 | 1662301 unerman
unerman's picture

The USA will miss your $1.32. Don't let door hit you on way out.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:59 | 1662397 JohnG
JohnG's picture

It's more like 2.7M this year so far.  And fuck you.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 07:48 | 1662977 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

Good for you that you're still here. I would have bunkered a year ago if I had that kind of cash.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 03:07 | 1662767 assembler
assembler's picture

Watch out for "unerman", he has his head in a bag.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:47 | 1662355 Chingalay
Chingalay's picture

It is happening here also. Closed my business three months ago after 14 years. New Laws and regs over time killed it. Won't invest one more dime in a traditional sense. I hear ya JG. I am Fnnn tired of it as well.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:43 | 1662499 JohnG
JohnG's picture

I hear you.  Plain tired of losing sleep.  It's that bad, and I can take a great deal of shit, always have.  Just about done with it.  Like my Grandma Lucy said, "I just want to get out of it."

The thing that kept me going to far is my people, thier families and children.  It's getting to be too much for me.

That's a sad statement,

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 03:54 | 1662800 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

I have a small business and I have learned the best way to survive is have no paid employees and just ignore the law. It is easier that way.

I think this is ultimately what happened to Rome.

The producing classes quit producing. Everyone ignored the government and the law to the point one single barbarian legion was all it took.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 20:58 | 1665739 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

America is lesser without your business which probably supplied good products and services. I thank you as an American for taking risk, working long hours and applying ingenuity and grit in attempting a commercial endeavor.

We have to get rid of this plague of collectivist class warfare where the entrepreneurs are regarded suspiciously or even despised and derided. It will all end badly.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:23 | 1661898 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Where is the GOP debate thread? Ron Paul is rockin' the house.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:28 | 1661917 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Is he? So far I've heard everyone but him get to speak.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:32 | 1661932 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Wolf set Mitt against Rick and they went at it, then they went to Ron and he gave a good serious answer on SS. Got good applause when he said let the young people opt out.

I hope that 47 is "young" enough to opt out.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:24 | 1662270 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"I hope that 47 is "young" enough to opt out."

I hope 52 is "young" enough to opt out...but I've been saying that since I was 32. Having "the number" helps on job interviews/applications.

Don't ya love the way they "frame" the issue? ;-)

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:29 | 1662467 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture
Which GOP candidate best represents the Tea Party's ideals? Michele Bachmann7% Herman Cain3% Newt Gingrich1% Jon Huntsman1% Ron Paul79% Rick Perry6% Mitt Romney2% Rick Santorum1%

Vote TOTAL VOTES: 744

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2011/09/gop-deba...


Tue, 09/13/2011 - 01:26 | 1662677 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Ron Paul up to 86% after I voted. All others are a continuation of the status quo.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 02:07 | 1662709 Old Poor Richard
Old Poor Richard's picture

Ron Paul holding at 85% of 2308 votes.  Ron Paul supporters pwn the intertubes, but what's with of the pinheads out there in the [snort] real world?  Perry's an Obama clone on policy and a crook with his hand out on top of that.  How the hell can a Gallup Poll of 'tea partiers' find that twink Perry far in the lead and find Mitt the establishment tool tied with Michele Bachmann?  Are 'tea partiers' really that retarded?  Or is the Gallup 'tea party' poll a complete hoax? 

 

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:34 | 1661942 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Ron says fund the safety net by ending the wars (some applause) and ending Dept of Education and Dept. of Energy (big applause).

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:04 | 1662046 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Predictably, he wasn't allowed to speak on the topic of the Federal Reserve.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:08 | 1662062 Cdad
Cdad's picture

Romney is blowing chunks in this debate.  The forever presumptive nominee is looking exactly like he always looks, cycle after cycle.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:10 | 1662069 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

And Rick Perry is a fucking sleazebag, who worms his way out of questions. Not much has changed there, either.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:10 | 1662075 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

That's because Romney is an idiot.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:15 | 1662088 Cdad
Cdad's picture

Perry...following him straight into the toilet of poor performance.  Busted out hard on mandatory Texas injections for 12 year old girls.  Marvelous. 

Paul and Bachman are boot stomping, as is Gingrich...even Santorum.  Free and fair polls should change dramatically in the morning, while MSM probably obsesses whether or not Perry or Romney "did what they needed to do."

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:04 | 1662223 erg
erg's picture

PERRY IS SCARY

There's a platform to run on. What's more, he has a really odd, off-camber gait. A vulture-like stance.

There's something more than a little australopithecine about him. -

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:19 | 1662260 WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture

australopithecine

Had to look it up. Great word, and perfectly descriptive of Perry.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:45 | 1662348 erg
erg's picture

Our avatars have an eerie familiarity.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 09:41 | 1663299 citta vritti
citta vritti's picture

why I love ZH: I can't for the life of me figure out why someone would junk the preceding. I guess, because it's there?

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:34 | 1662142 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture

Of the captured, Romney seems the most with Perry a close second.

GOP has a very depressing cast of servents this time around.

 

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:49 | 1662180 Cdad
Cdad's picture

I do not find anything depressing in Ron Paul, Michelle Bachman, even Newt for tha matter.  What is depressing is the preselection of the presumed winner by the crony MSM.  

What is depressing is the way the questions are designed to lead the candidates to expected answers.

What is depressing is that the MSM never really has debates anymore.  They host interviews with multiple applicants.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:32 | 1662474 ronin12
ronin12's picture

Cancel CNN, MSNBC, Faux News, et al.

Vote with yoru dollars.

Don't support the corporate controlled media that aims to enslave your mind.

 

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 00:03 | 1662553 Mike2756
Mike2756's picture

romney and perry will kill each other off, leaving paul on top.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 00:38 | 1662623 FreeNewEnergy
FreeNewEnergy's picture

Agreed. If US elections were run in a fair manner, Paul would win in 2012 by a landslide. Since they aren't, isn't it up to his supporters to quadruple their effort?

After all, it's only saving the nation you live in at stake.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 02:22 | 1662724 Old Poor Richard
Old Poor Richard's picture

Predictably, he wasn't allowed to speak on the topic of the Federal Reserve.

Thank God for that.  Nobody needs or wants to hear that crap.  He can nuke the Bernank after he's president--right now Ron needs to get himself elected.  That means quit wasting his breath with Libertarian Purity Test philosophy and instead focusing on ACTION to fix what ails America.  You can't sell the moronic hoi polloi on the joys of libertarianism by explaining to them.  You do it by BEING libertarian and sounding like the most responsible and sensible person in the room as a result without preaching it like it was a religion.

Ron did great on this in Iowa but has been drifting off script lately. Needs more rehersal?


Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:14 | 1662084 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

And the Dept of Agriculture - a 30 billion dollar loan to Brazil that was never paid back?  Why the hell is foreign aid coming from them?  Guess they thought nobody would see it.  

 

 

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:59 | 1662199 lincolnsteffens
lincolnsteffens's picture

If it was a "loan" it probably wasn't expected to be paid back. Maybe it was payment to the Brazilian farmers and ethanol and sugar producers so they wouldn"t bring the US to the World Court for trade barriers by subsidizing stuff to be made here and keeping out Brazilian products.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:10 | 1662238 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

I heard Brazilian ethanol is subsidized. How can they bring case against us in the World Court if they subsidize the industry? 

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:12 | 1662247 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

Bingo.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:15 | 1662252 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Free the sugar!!!

We need to end the corn mafia's hold on policy.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:24 | 1661899 Racer
Racer's picture

Obum, it didn't fool ZH

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:24 | 1661900 oogs66
oogs66's picture

but zandi and wolfe said it was a great thing!!!   35,000 schools!!! c'mon

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:00 | 1662031 max2205
max2205's picture

Zandi? Moody's Zandi? Fuck Zandi. He wants one of those govt jobs. Just listen to his lips ream big Os asshole. Yum O Ass

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:24 | 1661902 painequalschange
painequalschange's picture

Just throw the cash out of the helicopter already

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:15 | 1662087 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

Don't have enough helicopters.  Oh yeah, I guess they could buy some more.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 01:26 | 1662675 President Palin
President Palin's picture

Why not invade every country and steal their money?  USA USA USA

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:25 | 1661905 caerus
caerus's picture

newt NEVER answers the QUESTION!

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:27 | 1661913 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Ironic considering how questionable Newt actually is.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:06 | 1662054 caerus
caerus's picture

i'm "cheerfully opposed" to newt not getting hit by a bus

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 00:25 | 1662597 Augustus
Augustus's picture

That is the way politicians operate.

no matter what the question is, they will find a way to give an answer they want on something entirely different.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:26 | 1661908 FunkyMonkeyBoy
FunkyMonkeyBoy's picture

If you're viewing this from the perspective of "Obama is the leader, the person at the top of the tree, and is doing everything he can to save the country and the people", then this and the other crazy decisions of recent years make no sense.

Alternatively, If you're viewing this from the perspective of "Obama is a bought and paid for puppet, brought in to hammer in the final nail on empire USA" then everything makes perfect sense.

 

Elementary my dear Watson.

 

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:28 | 1662125 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Bingo!

Sovereign nations do not have to borrow their own money from private corporations. National debt is the con, interest is the grift, and debt-slavery of the people is the goal. 

It's all working brilliantly to plan. 

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:30 | 1662280 erg
erg's picture

I saw a documentary thirty years ago and two things remain. One was of a man using his hands in a parody of the scales of justice. One hand was held high (west) - one hand was held low (rest). He said they would have to meet in the middle.

He also said that in the future we would be trading carbon credits. That was back in the days of the global cooling scare.

Maurice Strong at the first earth summit in rio. De-industrialize the west. Old talking point here I'm sure.

*clears throat* Al G(I can't type the whole thing) within the last couple years bought a house on the waterfront.

It's crystal clear. Crash the world economy to resurrect something even more fell from the ashen ruins.

What I never understood was why the rush? Why the naked tyranny? Just let the tech roll out for another decade and everybody would be forever ensnared within the matrix. Why are they so pressed for time? It seems most exigent to them.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:31 | 1662297 JohnG
JohnG's picture

As in chess, it's the endgame that counts.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 02:45 | 1662744 Silver Bully
Silver Bully's picture

'Why are they so pressed for time?'

Time's a wastin' and everyone dies sometime. Godless greed. Gets 'em everytime.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 07:49 | 1662980 Vagabond
Vagabond's picture

That's a fair point... think about the players over the last 20-30 years.  They are getting pretty damn old... Cheney is half cyborg at this point.  Many of these guys are pressed for time.  That said... They have always shown a good deal of patience in the past.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 09:49 | 1663314 citta vritti
citta vritti's picture

"What I never understood was why the rush? ... 
Why are they so pressed for time?" 

Behavioral economics. They are not pressed for time. They want us to think we are. Humans tend to make poor long-term decisions when stressed, and creating false deadlines, illusions of immediate pressing needs, is a great way to elicit those poor decisions.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:26 | 1661910 fiddy pence haf...
fiddy pence haff pound's picture

he's finally waving a stick at the jet set. Now tax their parking spots at airports.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:58 | 1662027 pods
pods's picture

He just read The Law and wanted to illustrate Legalized Plunder.

pods

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:26 | 1661912 tbone654
tbone654's picture

nice...  remain bent over please...

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 02:47 | 1662745 Silver Bully
Silver Bully's picture

Plunder Illustrated: Swimsuit Edition?

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:27 | 1661914 Agent P
Agent P's picture

It's a proposal from the government...why would these numbers surprise anyone?

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:27 | 1661915 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

I think the vote count is underestimated.

Every dem connected operative that got to skim funds is also probably a vote in favor.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:27 | 1661916 YesWeKahn
YesWeKahn's picture

The cost is actually much higher than that. those are construction jobs, once the work done, these people are out of job again, then they will receive unemployment benefit for an "extended" period of time until the next election.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:59 | 1662016 Big Corked Boots
Big Corked Boots's picture

To be fair, the public also gets the long-term value of whatever it is being built, like a bridge, an airport, political re-education camp, etc.

 

I'm also expecting the program to be subject to the Davis-Bacon act which does not require union labor. However there are loopholes than can be applied to force the use of union labor and those are often applied at a state level. 

 

(wish this was /sarc... it ain't)

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:28 | 1661918 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

man, after reading this, i starting to really believe that WERE DOOMED!

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:39 | 1661955 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

Where have you been?  We've been doomed for some time.  It's only a matter of watching it play out.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:09 | 1662066 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

NO, i mean AFTER the collapse.

all we're going to get at the end of this is anew set of FOXES in the HENHOUSE.

stuck with paying off the same national debt ( you really dont think TPTB are going to 'forgive that')

with a 'new constitution'' (inability for the masses to 'resist'),

outlawing the ownership anything that is considered a threat to public safety.

and confinscation of assets (including your labor) to pay down said debt.

thats what i mean by WERE DOOMED!

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:45 | 1662152 i-dog
i-dog's picture

"NO, i mean AFTER the collapse"

Those things of which you speak are the purpose of the engineered collapse: The synthesised "solution" (feudal police state) to the created "problem" (fiat debt ponzi) and the created "reaction" (print more debt).

What we have to do is to take the collapse into a completely different direction ... one which we have at least some hope of controlling ... SECEDE NOW!!

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:20 | 1662262 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

secede now?

how can any state secede without the support of the population? or external support? that was tried in 1861, even though it was legal to do, and what happened then? the question of individual and states rights vs federal authority was decided then. and the CSA had the total supprt of its population  and external support, and still lost. the union just brutal enough to win. TOTAL WAR. and the csa still had to pay off the debt, reconstruction.

no, as i said before. WERE DOOMED

GAME OVER, MAN, GAME OVER.....

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:35 | 1662310 JohnG
JohnG's picture

There was a post by Manhunter a few days ago that really got me started thinking about Alaska.  That may be the first state to seceed.  I'll move there with everything I have if I smell that happenning.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:51 | 1662372 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

my main point was about debt, even in germany 1923, when inflation was BAD. all tptb did was restructure the monetary system, exchange old currency at a rate of 1 billion old to 1 new mark. pegged the new currency be indexed to gold(but not redeemable in gold) made it a criminal offense to own gold, and STILL had to pay the debt back for WW1. and look what they got in 30's. hitler. MAN, THIS NOT GOOD......

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:19 | 1662448 JohnG
JohnG's picture

Nope.  It will end in war.  History proves it.  Point taken.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:57 | 1662390 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

The CSA had a very small population, and no industry to speak of.

Things change.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:02 | 1662402 JohnG
JohnG's picture

One word: Cotton.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:15 | 1662433 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Egypt provided another source of cotton, so the French decided to sit it out.

 

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:22 | 1662456 JohnG
JohnG's picture

Can you blame them?  I think not. 

Will they be there again?  I think not.  They have thier own problems, and plenty of them.....

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 03:18 | 1662718 i-dog
i-dog's picture

"no, as i said before. WERE DOOMED

GAME OVER, MAN, GAME OVER....."

You may be doomed, but I'm not. So step out of the way and let those with a will to win get on with the job!

"how can any state secede without the support of the population?"

Silly question! Q: How does Obama hand trillions of your money to the bankstaz without the support of the population? How did a handfull of "founding fathers" form a "More Perfect Union" [sic] without the support of the population? How did Ireland join the EU without the support of the population? A: Simple ... by just going ahead and doing it! The vast majority of the population will just say: "Oh, well ... I guess it's OK, Muriel".

...... "or external support?"

You only need external support if you are fighting another country ... not when you are only fighting a city state that relies on its subject states to supply money and troops to maintain its power. Ask Rome!!

"that was tried in 1861, even though it was legal to do"

The war of 1861 was the first imperial war of expansionist aggression conducted by the United States (Washington DC and the Yankee states). Legal? ... my ass!

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:30 | 1661920 terryg999
terryg999's picture

That is assuming that 2 million jobs will be created. I don't see that odds of that happening as very good. Whats more likely is the vast bulk of that money he funnels from us, our children, grandchildren, and great grand children will be used to pad his union pals and corporate master's coffers

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:35 | 1661944 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

That's why there is an equivalency between jobs and votes.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:06 | 1662037 Rockfish
Rockfish's picture

None of us are worth $312,500 per job.  Sorry honey no pony this year.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:18 | 1662091 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

Wait, I might have it.  Let me check under the couch cushions.  

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 00:15 | 1662554 Rick64
Rick64's picture

These politicians and their numbers bullshit racket. When have they ever been right or even close to what they project? Never. This money will probably go right back into the corporations which explains the cost per job, and we are going to pay for it.  Smoke and mirrors. Remember the Stimulus Package. Sleight of hand.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:29 | 1661921 Corn1945
Corn1945's picture

It's never going to pass. Obama knows it also. He is out of rope and all he has left is to distract people from the real problems. Politicians have been using the distraction technique since the beginning of time.

People making $200K aren't the problem. The parasites on Wall Street are.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:12 | 1662246 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

"It's never going to pass."

I'm not at all sympathetic to Obama, but this gives Obama an issue.  If it passes, he gets more ammo to get re-elected.  It's nice to be President.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 01:27 | 1662678 Cdad
Cdad's picture

If this is your thesis, I'd go ahead and rip up the college loan application...and stick to fixing bicycles.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 06:45 | 1667735 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

I didn't say he'd get re-elected, I just said this issue is well-crafted and a win-win for Obama.  Sorry if that gets your knickers in a knot.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:29 | 1661922 HedgeAccordingly
HedgeAccordingly's picture

i love taxes . and paying for other peoples sh*t 

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:24 | 1662108 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

...so stop paying your taxes and paying for other peoples sh*t

Zero Tax = Zero Govt

..it's very fuking simple to stop this sham/bles

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:47 | 1662357 JohnG
JohnG's picture

I completely agree.  Thing is, until tend of millions are willing to do this, and flood the "courts," the sheeple will continue to chew thier cud.

Mass tax revolt, mass defaults, MASSIVE social unrest.

The sheeple will have to be hungry, indeed starving, before this will happen.

Hard to shake the sheeple from thier small existence as long as they can "get by."

It will happen, it's coming, but just how long I don't know.

I can only hope soon.  Best we can do now id to spread the word.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:50 | 1662360 JohnG
JohnG's picture

Dupe.  ZH busy tonight.  Guru meditation....

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:30 | 1661925 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

I think limiting charitable deductions for those over $250k is not likely to make him popular even with the social lib religions.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:31 | 1661929 Medea
Medea's picture

Who woke up one of the weak Tylers and told him to post?

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:44 | 1661970 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Don't you have a Code Pink rally to attend?

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:46 | 1661978 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Isn't it your turn to whip the caged Palestinians?

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:49 | 1661988 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Did they slaughter more innocents today?

Round 'em up.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:52 | 1661996 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

They're already rounded up. Palestine is a prison.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:56 | 1662013 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

No, it's not.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:01 | 1662033 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Then why does all Palestinian commerce pass through Israel customs? Why do all those who enter or exit Palestine have to pass through Israel?

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:07 | 1662060 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

An attempt to keep more heavy weapons out of the hands of murderous thugs.

Won't matter much anymore, now that Egypt has thrown open the border.

It won't bring the Palestinians anything but pain, but they long ago volunteered to be the club Islam uses to beat on Israel. Clubs get bloody, and I don't have any sympathy for them.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:15 | 1662086 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

There are dangerous thugs in the US, too. Perhaps we should be under lockdown? Why is Palestine the only place in the world where millions of completely innocent people can be locked up and denied the right to trade and travel?

The biggest terrorist attack ever perpetrated in Israel was committed by the Israelis when they blew up a hundred people at the King David Hotel. What gives them the right to hold the victims of their terror campaign  in cages? Why am I taxed to help them do it?

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:04 | 1662219 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Yeah, I hear it was the Mossad that made Sadam shoot Scuds at Israel. Is there anything they can't do?

Y'all are shameless.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:08 | 1662229 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

And cheering when the Zionists plant bombs in a hotel makes you a man of honor.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:19 | 1662258 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

No they didn't.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:27 | 1662283 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Stand up and show some pride in what you support:

 

On June 8, 1967, US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty was suddenly and brutally attacked on the high seas in international waters by the air and naval forces of Israel. The Israeli forces attacked with full knowledge that this was an American ship and lied about it. Survivors have been forbidden for 40 years to tell their story under oath to the American public. The USS Liberty Memorial web site tells their story and is dedicated to the memory of the 34 brave men who died.

http://www.ussliberty.org/

 

The King David Hotel bombing was an attack carried out by the militant right-wing Zionist underground organization Irgun on the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946.[1][2] 91 people of various nationalities were killed and 46 were injured.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

 

 

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:39 | 1662323 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Got anything recent?

Hell, it doesn't even take a realpolitick view of the world to get past that stufff.

Got anything else?

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:02 | 1662368 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

.

 

 

 

So you admit that Israel was founded on acts of terrorism?

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:07 | 1662416 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

No, I don't.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:22 | 1662455 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

So you think that bombing a hotel is OK?

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:29 | 1662469 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

No, but one group doing one hotel in 1946 is pretty weak sauce, and has nothing to do with Palestinians shooting at Israel today.

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