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The Cost Of A US Downgrade: $100 Billion Per Year, Offsetting All Deficit "Reduction" Efforts

Tyler Durden's picture





 

Earlier today, while discussing the implications of a US debt downgrade on a SIFMA call, JPM head of fixed-income Terry Belton told listeners that a US downgrade could cost the US an additional 60-70 bps in incremental interest. That's per year. He also added that US asset managers are unlikely to sell Treasurys on a downgrade, but that's irrelevant. Nobody can predict what all the knock off events from a US downgrade would be, as the Citi presentation from yesterday indicated. Should there be a downgrade, investors may not sell Treasurys, but they sure will be forced to sell other lower rated instruments to keep the overall rating distribution of their portfolio in line with mandated rating requirements. Which in turn, following margin calls, will result in, you guessed it, selling of Treasurys. Yet this debate is the topic of another post. What is more important is that on the same call, Belton said that a 70 bps increase in interest would result in an incremental $100 billion in interest expense each year. As a reminder, this is roughly the amount that the NPV of a realistic deficit reduction plan over 10 years would chop off from the US deficit on a yearly basis. Simply said: the US downgrade alone, now virtually taken for granted by everyone, will offset any beneficial impact from any deficit reduction that will have to happen for the debt ceiling to be increased. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why cash flows matters.

More from Reuters:

"That's on the order of $100 billion over time that we will add to our funding costs," said Terry Belton, global head of fixed income strategy at JPMorgan Chase. He was speaking on a conference call organized by the Securities Industry and Financial Markets Association, also known as SIFMA.

 

Over time, he said Treasury yields could rise 60 to 70 basis points on a credit downgrade -- "a huge number because we're talking a permanent increase in borrowing costs."

 

That would make it more costly for consumers and business to borrow money and could land the economy back in recession.

 

A default on the country's obligations would be even more disruptive, call participants said, and could ripple across financial markets, but was less likely.

 

In the short term, a downgrade would have a more subdued impact on markets, Belton said, with bond yields likely to rise five or 10 basis points.

 

Markets had feared a move to AA would spark forced selling, but Belton said "most investors have indicated they would be able to continue to hold them."

 

The "wild card" remains foreign demand over the longer run, sine the U.S. depends heavily on overseas investors -- mostly central banks -- to finance its deficit.

 

Belton said he expected demand for the $99 billion worth of fresh two-, five- and seven-year Treasury debt this week to be "on the weak side" and warned of even more concern if a debt ceiling impasse forces Treasury to postpone future auctions.

 

He said an eight-day auction delay surrounding a debt ceiling debate in 1995 cost the government 25 extra basis points in financing costs.

As yes, but back in 1995 the global economy was not run by a global central planning committee whose only purposes was to intertwine everyone in perpetuating the global debt-funded ponzi. This time nothing can possibly go wrong... or at least until such time as the house of cards propped up by Bernanke et al becomes so big that it finally collapses (the Fed can push the laws of finance and physics, but not break them) that the only rescue is for the Alpha Centuri central bank to come and bail out the world.

 


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Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:46 | Link to Comment Gubbmint Cheese
Gubbmint Cheese's picture

with all due respect - I disagree. The loss of an A in debt rating is going to be a non-event.

Does anyone remember 2002? http://archives.cnn.com/2002/BUSINESS/asia/04/15/japan.ratings.biz/index.html

How's that 10 year Japanese bond looking today? 1.10%?

 

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:52 | Link to Comment Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

I agree, it will be a non-event. CNN has a 'countdown to default' clock now - anything that's being hyped that much in the MSM is being used as misdirection and cover for something else. That's the one thing you can rely on from the 'news'.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:56 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Well to be fair, CNN and the other 24/7 news cycle media run 'countdown clocks' on everything including release times for starlets to get out of rehab. 

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:02 | Link to Comment Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

touché :) However, those are also misdirections - bread and circuses to keep the viewing public occupied on trivialities so they don't notice what's actually happening around them.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:11 | Link to Comment Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

anything that's being hyped that much in the MSM is being used as misdirection and cover for something else

 

Two examples:

1. UN Agenda 21 and Executive Order 13575
2. Odumbo's attempt to subvert the 2nd Amendment by giving the UN control of arms through the Arms Trade Treaty(which even Democrats are coming out against)

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:53 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Well what about all the munis that cant by law be in anything not AAA? What does everyone do, just re-write the laws and invest in whatever? Hobo economics.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:58 | Link to Comment Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

Yes,I expect that's exactly what they'll do. Its been done before with MBS, Greek debt, etc. - whatever it takes to keep the ponzi scheme alive another day.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:35 | Link to Comment chunkylover42
chunkylover42's picture

I am not certain it will be a non-event.  The real damage potential lies in margin accounts, short-term funding and swaps markets.  Treasuries are used as collateral because they receive the smallest haircut, but that changes if the U.S. goes to AA.  Just yesterday CME announced they are increasing the haircut when U.S. Treasuries are posted as collateral.  This means that anyone at the edges of a levered position either has to post more collateral or sell assets to meet the requirements. 

Further, government money market funds and repo markets are often predicated on AAA-rated securities being used in the transaction (by contract or by prospectus).  This action could lead to a freezing of short-term funding markets, the same problem we had after Lehman. 

Plus you've got he knock-on effect of downgrading Agencies as well, which are also used throughout the markets.  Life insurance companies own a ton of long government paper because it's AAA-rated.  It's not clear-cut to me that this is a non-event, I think it's more likely the elephant in the room.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:47 | Link to Comment pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

I think the fat lady is starting to sing!   Get ready!!!

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:47 | Link to Comment Bear
Bear's picture

This is insnaity ... The downgrade should come if the ceiling is raised and not the other way around. But I guess that its based upon the Banksters viewpoint

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:51 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Right, we're up against the debt and in danger of not making payments due to bankruptcy, so further debt printing and we're OK and our debt is more sound. Total bunch of nonsense.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:03 | Link to Comment Joe Davola
Joe Davola's picture

Krugman sticks his fingers in his ears and shouts "La-la-la-la, I can't hear a word you're saying La-la-la-la"

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:25 | Link to Comment mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

Agreed.  It's bizarro world and the legion of doom all wrapped in one.  The dollar should be strengthening and commodities softening at the prospect of a slow-down in debt/fiat printing.  But everything is working in reverse.  Which just goes to show how catastrophic the collapse will be.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 16:54 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

One year longer! Not happening...

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:48 | Link to Comment CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

To say nothing at all about what $120 oil will take off the economy/gdp/tax revenues.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:49 | Link to Comment baby_BLYTHE
baby_BLYTHE's picture

and Ben can offset the offset by more pump priming

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:58 | Link to Comment Mike2756
Mike2756's picture

So the 100B a year would be the increase in oil prices, not an interest rate rise.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:02 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

$100 billion, when we're in the hole $1.5 trillion every year. Or more. This is all just a damn joke. A SpongeBob bandaid on a severed limb. 

I wish theyd just ram it thru, then we can see how short lived it is and also see all the cuts to SS, Medicare, home mortgage deduction, theyve slipped thru.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:49 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Simply said: the US downgrade alone, now virtually taken for granted by everyone, will offset any beneficial impact from any deficit reduction that will have to happen for the debt ceiling to be increased. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why cash flows matters.

That's just crazy talk Tyler. The almighty dollar can never be sullied unless you are a terrorist.

Signed,

A born again dollar lover.

I love my Ally Bank dollar.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 16:57 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

How is your monetary Rapture going to look like

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:51 | Link to Comment Arch Duke Ferdinand
Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:53 | Link to Comment r101958
r101958's picture

If they are only trying to reduce the deficit by $100 billion then I would say we have a huge disconnect here. They should reduce spending by 20% this year alone.....and that would be about $720 billion (I know, not going to happen). That would still have us spending about $700 billion more than we take in. Moreover, it doesn't even touch the $14 trillion debt. Yes, I know it would cause a lot of pain but there is no other way really.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:52 | Link to Comment digitlman
digitlman's picture

Wow.   Smells like we are winning the future!

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:53 | Link to Comment Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

Bernanke, Obamao, Geithner, Dimon, Blankfein, Raines, Dodd, Frank...they all laugh in the faces of you slaves. Debt reduction doesn't matter. Downgrades don't matter. End the Fed. End the State.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:07 | Link to Comment Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

ah, heck.  Just Roll that Debt!

 

sing with me, Rollin', rollin', rollin'....keep that Debt a rollin', En--slaved!!

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:21 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Id rather sing 'I roll 2 joints before I roll 2 joints, and then I roll 2 more'

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:49 | Link to Comment Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

Just don't bogart that fattie, Sheepdog.  ;)

 

'ere!

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:55 | Link to Comment Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

That's only 1000$ per working American. And we all know Americans make 1000$ on average a day right?

 

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:57 | Link to Comment max2205
max2205's picture

Cut of 2nd House interest and cut of primary house interest will go down as the worst ever thing to do... a BIG BAG OF SUCK

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 14:58 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

This will be a non event in the sense that when it happens, its already been baked in so many times over it will be immediately devoured and we'll just move to another emergency countdown clock. Politics of constant fear and terror.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:01 | Link to Comment Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

market will actually go down because the calculated already another 14 trillion in it.

 

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:07 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

I dont see this impressing anyone either, this certainly isnt another 'Christmas in July' for Wall St at all. A few measely billion here and there?

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:02 | Link to Comment JR
JR's picture

When discussing the cost of a downgrade, how about one, just one, brave soul to tell us the cost to America for having “spectators” like JPM who “see what we need” while using the entire United States of America as their personal bail out backup.  Because of them we’ve been downgraded to the point of oblivion, and they’re worried about a downgrade if they don’t get their additional fix.  Here’s an opinion (edited down) from Richard Parker, a journalist and former associate publisher of the New Republic

Richard Parker: Tea party missed Wall Street memo | 7/26/2011

The debt ceiling debacle that is unfolding in Washington is not about ideology and it's not even about putting the nation's fiscal house in order. It's not even really about the American people. This is about appeasing just one group of people: the people on Wall Street. And before this is over, watch out for a Wall Street panic, which ultimately breaks the deadlock.

So far, the Street, frankly, has been largely asleep at the switch. Even as the economy has continued to falter it's been more than happy to keep the gears of commerce greased with plenty of government money.

And so the Street has thought: Hey, those guys down in Washington will make a deal, eventually. And a deal means predictability; and that's what investors, correctly, want. They want to know which corporate loopholes are opened or closed. And yes, they want to know if those Bush era tax cuts are going to be there when that big year-end bonus comes in. And like any bunch of bankers, the Street's got nothing against a bigger national debt — as long as there's a nice fat schedule to pay it down.

And both parties have been vying for the Street's favor. The Republicans on the tax side and the Democrats, now, on the spending side. And here's why: If President Obama can force a deal on his terms that Wall Street is OK with, the stock market could go through the roof, people could get jobs — and he's going to get a second term. If the congressional Republicans can get the Street what it wants then they can curry favor with people who have been traditionally Democratic donors, and capture Congress. And nobody in this equation could care less about the Republicans running for president.

But the Republicans have got one big problem: the tea party. The tea party's freshmen Republicans have held the line and insisted on cutting spending, even if that means not raising the debt ceiling above the current $14.3 trillion, even if it means defaulting on the debt. They've aligned themselves, too, with keeping the Bush-era tax cuts…it’s likely going to get ugly. The tea party isn't getting the message: Washington works for Wall Street…  

"Wall Street always wins, but they've been up against something more powerful: the tea party," says Jeff Connaughton, a former Senate chief of staff and now an ardent critic of Wall Street. "Why Wall Street hasn't yet understood that there's going to be a wreck is beyond me. The House is a stormy ocean. And we have no idea if the ship's going to make it to port or not."

http://www.montereyherald.com/letters/ci_18550336

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:15 | Link to Comment Greenhead
Greenhead's picture

Isn't it a little amazing that when certain members of Congress actually listen to the voters who elected them to office, "it is a problem".  Those voters don't want more debt, are not on the government dole and don't want to pay more in taxes.  They want to be left alone and not be harassed nor fleeced.  What a concept!  It used to be called freedom.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:26 | Link to Comment JR
JR's picture

Wow! Great summary!

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:03 | Link to Comment Cdad
Cdad's picture

Yep...yep...and for two days now, the infinite wisdom emminating from the criminal syndicate known as Wall Street is that of preparing expectations that the first ever downgrade of US debt is no big deal.

I'm starting to wonder if the current criminal crop on Wall Street is actually from Alpha Centuri.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:08 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Right, up till now thats been 'unthinkable', now downgrade/default is 'no big deal really at all'.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:30 | Link to Comment impending doom
impending doom's picture

No offense, but has there ever been a topic that you haven't commented on? The sheep could probably use some attention, dog...

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:06 | Link to Comment Cole Younger
Cole Younger's picture

And the hits just keep on coming...You have to hand it to these politicians....even when they think they are saving a buck, it cost them a buck. stupidity knows no bounds.....LOL...OH... Hmmmm......was this the plan all along to funnel the general fund to???? We could get a new conspiracy theory out of this one...give it time...it will develope..

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:12 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

“Today we are at a crossroads. One road leads to hopelessness and despair; the other, to total extinction. Let us pray we choose wisely.” – Woody Allen

It's intractable because continued growth on a finite planet isn't tractable/possible!

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:32 | Link to Comment Raynja
Raynja's picture

“Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not so costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no chance of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.” –Winston Churchill

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:16 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

A removal of an 'A' could result in 60 bps, of course causing wild chaos. Basically 'damned if we do, damned if we dont'...however theres some magical spot right in the middle thats somehow not bad at all. Or, we could just admit we're bankrupt, sever foreign entanglements, and get to rebuilding. Of course that does not shower banksters with billion of free dolars, so 0% chance of that.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:17 | Link to Comment oogs66
oogs66's picture

first the 100 billion compounds, and in 10 years when the debt is doubled, it is 200 billion per year anyways.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:19 | Link to Comment Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

Should this not be noted as a Trillion dollar downgrade in keeping with Washington budget speak.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:24 | Link to Comment TradingChief
TradingChief's picture

Assuming there is such an offset, then one must also consider the down pressure on the US dollar, and what that will do for exports. So net-net it should result in more money for the FED not less.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:24 | Link to Comment TradingChief
TradingChief's picture

Assuming there is such an offset, then one must also consider the down pressure on the US dollar, and what that will do for exports. So net-net it should result in more money for the FED not less.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:27 | Link to Comment johny2
johny2's picture

deleted, it was my other personality that wrote earlier comment

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:26 | Link to Comment wombats
wombats's picture

Who loses from a Default?  JPM, GS, other TBTF banks lose, but the country as a whole will be better off with a revision to mean.  If we go back to honest money (gold) the budgetary discipline imposed will go a long way to solving our problems with runaway wasteful spending.  Our wars would probably quickly end and our inflation problems would likely evaporate just as they did after the revolution when the constitution first instituted the gold standard.

Whatever subsequent borrowing might be needed would be backed by honest money so risk rates seem likely to be relatively low too.

Sure the transition to a reset and reintroduction of a gold standard would be disruptive and painful, but in the end we will all be better off.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:48 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

The banks won't lose. They will restructure some of the loans and give up a little to make it look like they care about the general welfare of the country. But in actuallity what will happen is they will lengthen the term of the loans at an affordable rate and collect interest over a longer time frame. The banks never want to recieve their money back. With them it's all about the cash flow so the can make more bigger and better loans.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 21:14 | Link to Comment Mesquite
Mesquite's picture

> wombats.. Ok

But with all the entrenched power of tptb (over centuries..) do we really stand a chance of this EVER happenning now, along with the conditioned masses' expectations thrown in..??

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:27 | Link to Comment wombats
wombats's picture

Who loses from a Default?  JPM, GS, other TBTF banks lose, but the country as a whole will be better off with a revision to mean.  If we go back to honest money (gold) the budgetary discipline imposed will go a long way to solving our problems with runaway wasteful spending.  Our wars would probably quickly end and our inflation problems would likely evaporate just as they did after the revolution when the constitution first instituted the gold standard.

Whatever subsequent borrowing might be needed would be backed by honest money so risk rates seem likely to be relatively low too.

Sure the transition to a reset and reintroduction of a gold standard would be disruptive and painful, but in the end we will all be better off.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 17:03 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Aaaaaaaaaarghhh!

Painful? You have no idea! Three generations used to a world were easy money gets easier and easier? You have no idea....

Hard money is HARD on debtors.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:28 | Link to Comment papaswamp
papaswamp's picture

$100 Bil a year? pffft! The HC bill which slowly comes to life is dependent on revenues…which is dependent on a healthy US GDP of 3.5%+. What happens when the GDP is lower thus revenues are lower? Draw from the general fund? That is the problem with all these 'plans' and up and coming spending. No one seems to be looking at what environment they are based on. What happens when we are staring at GDPs of 2.5% or less? All the guesstamates go out the window. How much is a 0.5% or more miss on GDP?

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:34 | Link to Comment Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

We can afford the downgrade. In fact with Ben's magic machine we don't even need to borrow. We do that just to keep up appearences of restraint and to keep bond traders in Guccis on the beach in the Hamptons.

The Fed will take all downgraded debt on its infinite balance sheet. And any creditors hurt by the donwgrade can just come down to DC and take whatever they need.

No sweat.

Just remember: all DC politicians, including GOP, own stock. Millions worth. How do you think that will influence their decision-making on the debt ceiling?  

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:36 | Link to Comment Vincent Vega
Vincent Vega's picture

Dear President & Congress,

Here's an idea: Do NOT raise the debt ceiling. STOP SPENDING!

 

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:41 | Link to Comment kevinearick
kevinearick's picture


Real Estate is tied to labor rates which is tied to actual productivity which depends on the electrons which depends on the old timers ensuring they have access to the real estate and labor markets in a productive feedback loop to adjust the current required to deliver community self reliance and surplus production, but the old timers are busy running off in their RVs with plasma TVs, funded by government checks. The checks must stop long enough to trigger the required behaviors, and then adjusted to maintain equilibrium.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:43 | Link to Comment FlyPaper
FlyPaper's picture

Smoke and mirrors.  The savings are over 10-years, and equal 100b/year, or about 10 days of Federal spending; plus the next Congress can wipe out any deal for savings.

Need to see cuts now.

Petulant Obama with no plan other than to spend; he get's debt ceiling increased and voters: get a goose-egg.

Rating agency downgrade will occur without debt ceiling based on spending/debt trajectory.

Obama trying to crash the system?

 

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:46 | Link to Comment swissinv
swissinv's picture

100bn dream on!!! a blood bath is coming with the downgrade!

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:49 | Link to Comment vocational tainee
vocational tainee's picture

And here it comes,compared to other nations we also have to face financial reality.How unusual !

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 15:53 | Link to Comment pcrs
pcrs's picture

doesn't matter. The FED buys the treasuries anyway and they recycle all interest minus some expenses back into the government. No big deal then.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 16:33 | Link to Comment CustomersMan
CustomersMan's picture

 

   The change in collateral value of U.S. Treasuries is a big, BIG Story. When Treasuries are deposited there is or was a 95% release in marginable buying power which is often used for a multitude of other speculative and not-so-speculative purchases, hedges, hypothication, etc., etc.,

 

  Any change in this value will change the dynamics of hedge-fund speculation, commodity cross-hedges and just about anything else used under leverage in the markets.

 

  If your not watching this, you should be. There is more here than meets the eye, and there must be reasons besides the punny ones I've seen so far.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 16:45 | Link to Comment pcrs
pcrs's picture

Why doesn't the market give a rats ass then? Could it be that they think the ceiling will be raised just like all the other times in history? Or that it wont have the efffect you mentioned, just like the downgrade of Japanese treasuries did not have the effect you mention?

I think they will raise the debt ceiling even without congressional approval. They go to war without their approval as well. Remember the end of the Roman empire: over extended, too much war, too much taxes, too much tax eaters and demotivated tax earners and a senate that was there just for show.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 17:01 | Link to Comment equity_momo
equity_momo's picture

Asking the head of JPM Fixed Income anything about US government debt is like asking a Soccer Mom if her little Billy is any good at Soccer.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 17:18 | Link to Comment spanish inquisition
spanish inquisition's picture

Pshaw... Bernanke accidently printed more than that when his cat walked across the keyboard.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 17:47 | Link to Comment Cvillian
Cvillian's picture

Yet another reason why I believe a bill should be passed that requires Presidents, Senators and Congressmen to install a massive sign above every one of their desks and floors that reads, "You can't solve a debt problem with more debt".

Maybe if they're forced to read that every single day it might begin to sink in...who am I kidding...none of these guys go to work.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 17:59 | Link to Comment pcrs
pcrs's picture

It's not exactly in their own interest to show any constraint. Free money to make lots of friends. The problem are in the future.

Wed, 07/27/2011 - 09:21 | Link to Comment scrappy
scrappy's picture
Michael Hudson: Obama's & the Misdirection Play

 

http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php/19890-Michael-Hudson-Obama-s...

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 22:49 | Link to Comment karmete
karmete's picture

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Wed, 09/14/2011 - 03:43 | Link to Comment chinawholesaler
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