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Credit Dislocated, Again

Tyler Durden's picture




 

We have discussed the dynamics of the credit-equity-vol relationship for many months in the hope that it broadens investment horizons and opens traders' eyes to a bigger picture of global risk appetite. Following (and understanding) the debt-equity relationship has proved, in general, a very useful instrument in an investor's toolkit and Barclay's Capital this week points to just how dislocated European credits are relative to stocks (having underperformed) and while we may not be quite as exuberant as them in the call to add credit exposure here (as we see more structural than cyclical concerns ahead), we cannot argue that on a relative-value basis, arguments for significant re-allocation from bonds to stocks simply do not make sense (from both valuation and risk perspectives) - no matter how many times Pisani tells us so.

 

From Barclay's Capital: European Credit On Deck:

Credit strongly underperformed equities over the past week, as the  market struggled to follow the equity rally sparked by weekend rumors about potential new sweeping initiatives to contain the sovereign crisis in Europe. While the Eurostoxx 50 has gained almost 9% since last Friday’s close, iTraxx Main is only 4bp tighter – well below the tightening expected given the recent relationship between the two indices (Figure 1). We do not see a fundamental reason for this disconnect and expect some normalization in the near term.

 

From a historical perspective, the current underperformance is in line with a general theme of credit underperforming equities in periods of elevated market volatility. To illustrate this effect, in Figure 2 we show the rolling average of 3-month z-scores from CDS-equity regressions for constituents of the iTraxx Main S15. Average z-score measures the extent to which current CDS spreads deviate on average  from levels implied by equity prices.

 

A positive value indicates that credit is trading wide relative to what the equity performance would imply (and vice versa). Over the past four years, spikes in market volatility, as measured by the VSTOXX, have tended to coincide with jumps in the average z-score, highlighting credit market’s unusually strong negative sensitivity to volatility. The most prominent of such instances include:

  • August 2007 – the beginning of the financial crisis;
  • Late 2008 – the Lehman collapse;
  • May 2010 – the first Greek bailout.

Conversely, periods of credit outperformance  have been typically accompanied by low or falling volatility. In other words, since 2007, credit has led equity markets in any downturn, even as the relationship has normalized over longer periods of time.

 

When broken down to the sectoral level, its  interesting to note that the recent credit underperformance has been consistent across non-financial sectors, with financials being the only sector in which CDS, on average, are trading in line with stocks. Given the close connection between sovereign solvency and bank impairments, it is not surprising that the financial sector has shown a stronger linkage in performance across asset classes. Nonetheless, the significant underperformance of all other sectors relative to equities leads us to argue that credit is poised for outperformance whichever direction the market turns from here. If the rally continues, then on a beta-adjusted basis credit has a long way to go to catch up with equities, while if market softness continues, credit widening should be limited by the fact that it is not very far from the recent (and all-time) wides at the index level.

 

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Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:01 | 1730818 trampstamp
trampstamp's picture

Good or bad for stocks? I'd like to sell into a 4th quarter rally. Seems 2012 will be a dismal year to say the least.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:06 | 1730827 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

 

 

Whats wrong with you?

EVERYTHING IS BULLISH!! if you are shorting. LOL!!

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:24 | 1730856 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture

 

Using normal metrics and an anticipated economic slowdown, stocks may seem overvalued.

 

However, a euro crisis will quickly spread to USD and other currencies.

 

Then you will see the rush to gold, oil, commodities in general and, yes, equities. 

 

Anything but burning currencies.

 

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:16 | 1730918 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Logic fail. We'll see liquidation and a further inflated bubble in bonds.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:38 | 1730944 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

For the time being, yes.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:41 | 1730950 snowball777
snowball777's picture

You want to play chicken with the Bernank and try to time that pop?

Avaya con dios!

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:53 | 1730979 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

Myself? I'm not insane. :)

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 17:20 | 1731427 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture

 

Snowball,

 

If you think it is logic fail, see what happened in Argentina during their currency crisis - the Merval Index surged in 2001/02 as the crisis accelerated.

 

Important to know your history in terms of what really happens during currency crises.  Steve Liesman and Bob Pisani  won't get you there.

 

Paper: "A stock market boom during a financial crisis?"

http://www.public.asu.edu/~mmelvin/publishedpaper.pdf

 

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 19:06 | 1731641 aus_punter
aus_punter's picture

so in Argentina investors worked out a loophole to get their assets out of pesos and exploited it

 

that doesnt actually seem particularly suprising

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 19:06 | 1731642 aus_punter
aus_punter's picture

so in Argentina investors worked out a loophole to get their assets out of pesos and exploited it

 

that doesnt actually seem particularly suprising

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 20:04 | 1731794 snowball777
snowball777's picture

This isn't Argentina...the dollar isn't pegged to the reserve currency, it is the reserve currency. If there's a crisis in other currencies, people will run to the most liquid market in the least fucked currency which, sad to say, is the dollar after the Zooro tanks.

I'll buy your argument about commodities...they'll ramp in every currency, but money rushing out of the Zooro into dollars will find its way to bonds, not the crashing values of the stock farce.

From the paper:

"...the rise in Argentine stock prices as a result of investors using the stock market to circumvent cash withdrawal restrictions at banks and shift funds
out of Argentina (and pesos) into the United States (and dollars)."

Where do you think USD denominated stocks will allow people to move their dollar assets to exactly? It was a boom for the Argentine stock market, not the US.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:57 | 1730993 Quinvarius
Quinvarius's picture

It isn't a logic fail.  There is too much money floating around and it is all in the banking system.  It will be spent on banker stuff.  The logic fail is looking at a manipulated Treasury market as the credit baseline while the rest of credit is dumping.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 20:09 | 1731802 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Do note my use of the word 'bubble'. Whether it is a good long-term investment is almost beside the point...it's liquid and it's huge.

 

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:24 | 1730858 redpill
redpill's picture

With so much distortion from central banks in the global economy, nearly everything gets "misallocated" to one degree or another. Then you have every financial talking head trying to make sense of all the gibberish and distorted noise that the market vomits out each day, desperately clinging to various complex theories that fit the circumstances for 24-48 hours, after which it seesaws back again in a chaotic swoon.

It's annoyingto have to listen to, and conversely the clarity and consistency of ZH is what makes it a breath of fresh air in the daily stink of the Keynesian endgame.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:11 | 1730912 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

 

 

Keynesian endgame

Keynesian, Austrian and / or other.. is NOT! the problem.

Corruption is the Problem..

Austrian Economics is just another way to leave the Corrupt Super Structure in place.. and considering that there are to, too many of YOU!

That is the real issue..

YOU! breath to, too much air..

YOU! use to, too much oil..

YOU! are tapped out and no longer useful to milk or drain for imagined future production..

and because of these things (and others) You! must now kill other worthless tapped out people.. OR?!?!? Be killed by other worthless tapped out people.. no one is forcing You! and You! have a Choice, kill or be killed.

I am sorry that You! are not part of the lucky sperm club..

I am sorry that You! are not important enough for someone who is of importance to want or need You! to stay alive.. You! should have been a better boot licker or more productive, sorry.

Not everyone is a winner or a tiger blooded double winner even!

Not everyone can have a D.O.D. number.. if everyone had one they wouldn't be special!

If you feel special because I have said You! so many times.. I promise You! that You! are NOT!!

My use of You! is so that all of YOU! that lack a D.O.D. Number (of importance) will better understand what Your! new place is in this World!

 

But on the upside.. You! ALL!! can always turn on Cable (Feel Great) News and thusly forget about all this ugly truth.. that you don't believe in any way.

 

Everyone who doesn't understand the numbers of Population Control should really get a fucking pencil out and do some simple math, let this old fucker help you along if you are to fucking dense to pull off the exercise by yourself.

 

The Most IMPORTANT Video You'll Ever See (part 1 of 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY

 

and is AL doesn't make a case clear enough, let Bill Gates help!

 

Bill Gates-Population Reduction Agenda of the Earth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mwYXbdQYN8&feature=related

 

or if Bill Gates alone doesn't bring it quite into view let Rockefeller help!

and if that doesn't work for you, then you are part of the problem.

 

David Rockefeller Speech on Population Control

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTEorS4yWt0

 

 

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:37 | 1730941 redpill
redpill's picture

Corruption is inevitable, so to say it is the (only) problem is to complain the sky is blue. However you can limit that corruption by virtue of limiting centralized power. That is when you can distinguish between a realistic economic policy backed by sound money, and one that is based on illusion and endlessly inflatable fiat. Sound money prevents it's own debauchery much more effectively, and an economic approach that values underconsumption, saving, and production is going to have more capable and vigilant participants than one that is based upon imaginary credit, handouts, and debt-backed consumption.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 14:05 | 1731015 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

Thanks, I started to try and respond but immediately got a cluster headache.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 15:33 | 1731204 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

 

 

I could comment.. about your ability to comprehend.. or lack of.. but is it really needed  after what you said about yourself?

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 15:31 | 1731198 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

 

 

 

handouts,

Which handouts bother you more?

helping the poor negro's?

or?

helping all those poor starving wall street, Triple "A" Rated Corporations?

be honest?

is it the illegal's?

or is it the Trillions we pass out around the world..

or?

are those POOR Corporations going to suffer because the Negro's and Mex-e-cans are stealing all of you tax dollars?

I bet that 99% of the austrian crowd deep down inside believes that it is all the poor, generational welfare families that are a drain on this country..

or maybe that Grandma and Grandpa are now the worst of the worst, with regard to draining the life blood from America!

LOL!!


Come on.. be honest! it's the internet.. you are anonymous! no one knows you real name.. tell the truth tea bagger!

if you can't say nigger now when will you grow a set big enough to say it later?

do you need a crowd of fellow nigger haters around so that you feel superior in number?

politics is dead, the sooner you figure that out.. the happier you will be.

 

 

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 17:23 | 1731433 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture

 

JW,

 

It may be too late, but park it before you wreck it.

Come back in the morning.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 18:01 | 1731510 hardcleareye
hardcleareye's picture

Hey I'm kinda enjoying JW's rant.  I am reading it with a very heavy layer of sarcasm to the words and it kinda makes sense. 

The short coming of blogs is that you can't hear the tone of voice or the body language that goes with the words....

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 04:32 | 1732433 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture

JW

drunk or are those your true colors?

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 15:16 | 1731169 Withdrawn Sanction
Withdrawn Sanction's picture

Ah yes, Professor Bartlett's grandiosely titled ode to linear thinking.  True, his arithmetic is parabolic, but his conclusions are still just linear extrapolations from that parabola.  And indeed, his arithmetic is correct as far as it goes.  But that's the trouble, he makes no allowance for discontinuities, resets, innovation, learning, nothing.

Anyone calling for population reduction who does not first put his call into personal practice is at best a hypocritical poseur, and at worst a would-be murderer.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 17:55 | 1731500 hardcleareye
hardcleareye's picture

I think you missed the point of JW in FL.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:24 | 1730857 junkyardjack
junkyardjack's picture

This is how the market will operate from now on.  There will be a big crash, hedge funds will go out of business because of redemptions and high watermarks.  Then new ones will open up, the market will rally on leveraged volume.  As everyone figures out that there is no one else to buy because everyone is leveraged out, repeat market crash. And so on and so on.  Just ride the wave

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:49 | 1730895 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Exactly, and with ZH's help we will all get great rides and peel off the back of the wave before crashing on the rocks.  Now get back into the line-up and wait your turn.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:17 | 1730920 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Don't forget to leash your board. Could get choppy.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 18:46 | 1731598 oldman
oldman's picture

dude,

no one cares about the future

here and now, baby

leave it alone; it will manifest itself             om

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:05 | 1730820 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture

It's kind of like a Phillips curve for credit-equities.  Equity markets can't go up without more debt in the sytem.  The less debt in the system, equity markets go down. 

Conclusion: Greenspan's Great Moderation was rooted on leverage, and debt expansion.  Now we return to cycles of more frequent boom-bust as economies adjust back to real conditions.  More debt implies even greater adjustment shocks in the near future for world economies.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:22 | 1730853 Surly Bear
Surly Bear's picture

The fact that I understand you scares me.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 15:52 | 1731247 css1971
css1971's picture

Yes. It is a pyramid scam.

 

Hence "The Great Ponzi".

 

And I reckon the pyramid on the dollar bill.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:05 | 1730823 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

 

 

should be limited by the fact that it is not very far from the recent (and all-time) wides at the index level.

There will be a continuing tightening going forward, beyond the new year.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:43 | 1730889 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

People just do not understand.

We are paying more than $100/barrel for oil at the refineries.  This has been true all year.

Nothing can be done about this.  There are no historical precedents.  

A lot of people are going to die, soon.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:05 | 1730825 spiral_eyes
spiral_eyes's picture

Significant re-allocation from bonds to gold seems more likely.

http://azizonomics.com/2011/10/02/the-only-chinese-hard-landing-will-be-on-americas-head/

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:36 | 1730833 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture

With the EZ about to implode, and uncertainty in EURO continuity, everyone is unwinding USD and YEN carry trade, in case of huge inflows to these currencies, and away from EUR (likely reason for the central bank swap lines).  So more USD strength.  Gold is not a safe haven investment, or liquid enough for panic reallocation.

 

'Analysts' told ppl to hold when the tech bubble crashed.  Analysts told ppl to hold when the real estate market crashed.  Analyst are telling ppl to hold on to silver & gold, when they may crash.  Most of the recent demand in precious metal was from hedgefunds & institutions using it as a financial asset (hedge).  They weren't playing it as a currency alternative.  When they exit their hedge positions gold & silver will collapse, and retailers will be wiped out.  retails will not get a bailout.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:49 | 1730893 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Hedge funds are old news my friend. Nobody cares what they do anymore as we'll likely see the hf industry cut in half over the next few years. This snap to the USD will leave people asking themselves 'what's next?' At this point we'll have to wait and see but if you think hyper-deflation, then, for your sake, I hope you're wrong. But even then, I'd rather own gold bars in order to have something to throw at the armed barbarians looking for blood.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:49 | 1730894 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

I agree, at some point there will be a mass exodus from bonds and gold will benefit.  Buying PMs is a proxy for shorting fiat currencies.  

It seems that there are only two places to be in the current credit environment:  

1)  Free and clear with no debt - the most desirable option

2)  In hock to your eyeballs with the banks looking the other way when you cannot pay

 

It would be risky, but if you cannot get out of debt, why not take on more?  It is clear that inflation will increase and interest rates will rise, maybe substantially.  Taking out a loan at the current suppressed interest rates and paying it back with inflated dollars is essentially shorting the dollar, albeit on margin.  Tapping a home equity line of credit and buying PMs would be one example.  If there is hyperinflation, you could pay off all your debt by liquidating a portion of your gold and keep the remainder.  If there is deflation....well that would be the wrong side of the trade.  

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:55 | 1730986 Mike2756
Mike2756's picture

Pm's have a long way to drop still. Gold hasn't touched it's 100 sma (monthly) since apr 2003 (now at 800), silver did in oct 2008 (now around 15). I would think gold holds in the 1k area if silver spikes under 20.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 15:25 | 1731189 Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture

Huge demand for Physical Metals will help support the POG/POS.  Listen to Bill Haynes and Dan Norcini on this week's KWN broadcast.

========

The KWN Weekly Metals Wrap - We have added new segments to the KWN Weekly Metals Wrap covering gold, silver, trading and a plethora of other factors affecting the precious metals markets.  We Cover the Commitment of Traders Report in detail as well as a number of other factors which can influence the gold and silver market price action.

http://www.kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast/Entries/2011/10/1_KWN_Weekly_Metals_Wrap.html

 

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:25 | 1730859 Mr_Wonderful
Mr_Wonderful's picture

Markets will reopen more quickly during flash crashes to make them more efficient for HFT plundering:

"The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission began an overhaul of rules adopted a quarter century ago to shut down the stock market and related futures trading during periods of volatility, proposing that curbs be triggered when the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index falls 7 percent.
The changes would switch the index used for circuit breakers to the S&P 500 from the Dow Jones Industrial Average, according to proposals submitted by U.S. equities exchanges and the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority. Index declines that set off halts in stocks, options and futures would be reduced and their duration shortened, according to a summary of the proposals from the SEC.
“Tighter circuit breakers and a coordinated effort will allow everyone to take a breath when it’s needed,” William Karsh, a consultant and former chief operating officer at Jersey City, New Jersey-based Direct Edge Holdings LLC, said in a phone interview. “If they stop trading and give people a chance to assess what’s going on, they can reopen without the crazy whipping action we saw on May 6, 2010.” (Source)
Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:41 | 1730887 Schmuck Raker
Schmuck Raker's picture

"“Tighter circuit breakers and a coordinated effort will allow everyone to take a breath when it’s needed,” William Karsh, a consultant and former chief operating officer at Jersey City, New Jersey-based Direct Edge Holdings LLC, said in a phone interview. “If they stop trading and give people a chance to assess what’s going on, they can reopen without the crazy whipping action we saw on May 6, 2010.”"

Maybe PEOPLE are not the problem that needs to be addressed.

What happens if/when HFT algos start trading again after these breaks: the break will be in the news, the trip is bad news, HFTs sell, trip the next breaker, etc.?

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:10 | 1730913 Mr_Wonderful
Mr_Wonderful's picture

Shorter halts would favor the programs, I imagine.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:26 | 1730929 snowball777
snowball777's picture

There's a tacit assumption here that selling is irrational. It's not.

If we periodically lock the doors to the burning theater, people will leave in a more orderly fashion...

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:29 | 1730863 RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

Puplava is ultra bearish.

After listening to the podcast, most guys are likey to pile into the 3x Triple Whammy ETF's like TZA, FAZ, VXX, etc.

http://www.netcastdaily.com/broadcast/fsn2011-1001-1.mp3

Too bad Puplava personally invested heavily in hybrid cars, solar panels for his house, etc.

Looks like he won't need those any time soon.

 

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:36 | 1730879 levelworm
levelworm's picture

I agree. It's just like before (the 79 and 29), but with different tools and faces. Gold will collapse and USD will dominate, while the other countries scramble to find more USD, they have to buy it at a much higher price from US. And if they cannot pay the price, a pound of flesh has to be provided.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 14:02 | 1731004 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

"while the other countries scramble to find more USD, they have to buy it at a much higher price from US."

ORLY?

Seems to me they'll just dump their US treasurys on the FED!

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:50 | 1730898 Stoploss
Stoploss's picture

I see the 30 yr has taken out the highs from Oct - Dec '08 . Me thinks with the twist in effect tomorrow, that won't be enough to discourage flight to the 30, given the credit uncertainty in the last 60 days, not to mention everything else. My "Laslo B" ruler analysis shows the 30yr could go to over 200??  Which means that TBT goes to under 10?

TBT is #1 in the short screens, and TLT is number one, in the long screens i run.

Decisions, decisions, any thoughts? 

 

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:14 | 1730916 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

Levelworm makes a good point about the previous history of PM spikes, but this time I question the resolve of the Bernank to raise interest rates to defend the dollar when inflation hits hard.  Current service of US Gubmit debt is about 19% of budget, if interest go to 10% it would triple and half of every tax dollar collected would go to pay interest.  Since the government already pays 50% of all collections to entitlements, there would be nothing left for discretionary spending.  Can you imagine a sitting US Congress not spending anything? Me either, they would demand that the Fed print more FRN$, making the problem worse, eventually entering the death spiral.  

So with that logic, shorting bonds would seem like a tremendous opportunity.  Key word is seems.  Hard to go up against someone with unlimited resources and win.  Everyone who has tried shorting bonds so far has been destroyed.  I think eventually bonds are going to tank and it will be gruesome.  Holding a short position in bonds right now has been gruesome too.  Might be a good idea to just stay away.  If you want to play it, I would suggest buying put options far out of the money on TLT for cheap price.  Limiting your downside risk is very important here, buying and holding RRPIX will tie up a lot of capital and expose it to an irrational market.  Options can and do expire worthless, but betting $1,000 on options is safer than putting $10,000 into a bear bond fund and watching it shrink because the sheeple are panicking.  

 

 

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:39 | 1730946 Stoploss
Stoploss's picture

I am an index trader, and have been since about '04 i guess. I don't play with these normally, but given the recent activity, i see an opportunity in the not too distant future. I expect that bonds will continue to rally into year end, but the twist is designed to drive down price by selling the short end and buying the long end. Ie, TBT would be a play on the twists price drop effect, should that indeed occur. I have too many winners right now to worry about the bond trade short term anyway. Just looking ahead a little right now.

Thanks for the input.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:58 | 1730904 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

So much insanity on these boards. Many cannot see the forest for the trees.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:13 | 1730917 Mr_Wonderful
Mr_Wonderful's picture

A "forest" is an abstraction. A "tree" isn´t.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:21 | 1730925 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Forests and trees are both structures; neither is abstract or independent of the other.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:44 | 1730953 Mr_Wonderful
Mr_Wonderful's picture

You are mistaken, sir.

Forest doesn´t exist as such. Only trees exist. Forest is the concept of many trees. Therefore forest is an abstraction.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:52 | 1730978 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

If you worship at the altar of hairsplitting, perhaps I should rephrase the general phrase into other general terms.

Many cannot see the tsunami for the frothing droplets.

Now if you say the tsunami does not exist as such, since it is only a collection of droplets, I invite you to stand witness to it's power.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:56 | 1730988 Mr_Wonderful
Mr_Wonderful's picture

Why so sullen?

The forest-trees thing is very elementary. About 6th grade or so.

 

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:59 | 1730997 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

The sum of things is more than the parts. Something you seem to be ignoring in your wordsmithing.

 

I sought to change the metaphor to point out the elementary flaw in your thinking.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 14:04 | 1731010 Mr_Wonderful
Mr_Wonderful's picture

You can´t feel an abstract concept like a forest. You can only feel individual trees. Get it now?

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 14:07 | 1731024 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

You are discussing actual forrests and trees. How strange.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 15:11 | 1731161 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Sure, that's why there are 'tree fires' and people who practice 'treeistry'. Perhaps the 6th grade has done poorly by you.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 20:08 | 1731805 Market Efficien...
Market Efficiency Romantic's picture

well, your new metaphor only shows you don't get the difference. H2O molecules and tsunami is not analogue to forest and trees. Whereas the latter describes the difference of object and structure, the former describes the difference between structure and process. A tsunami is no concept, it describes a process of objects' reaction to action.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 20:28 | 1731847 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

I'll concede your point.

The point I tried to make via metaphor is that many if not most here do not consider the economy as a whole in their analysis thereof, instead focussing on things like the bond market or the stock market or gold. I view that as foolish.

What was also foolish in retrospect was using a metaphor given the anal retentive types that frequent these boards. I will try and remember that in future.

But what the fuck do I know anyway.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 20:36 | 1731867 Market Efficien...
Market Efficiency Romantic's picture

With that I totally agree (see below). I believe such major allocations shifts as we are currently experiencing is a result of expectations and at the same time a driver of the world economy. But such shifts derail any regime within a specific asset class or between asset classes. 

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 14:02 | 1731003 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Mr W is here correct, logically speaking. A forest is real only conceptually. A tree is an actual physical thing. Great discussion boys, now, back to buying actual gold.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:48 | 1730961 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

i'm warming up to you new avatar.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 14:39 | 1731070 tickhound
tickhound's picture

Here's a tree i read about in another (telegraph) comment section today... where insanity can reach bat-shit crazy levels.

"What a bunch of morons.  Why don't you protest your out of control, corrupt government?  Wall street is just a bunch of businesses, basically.  Duh."

Duh, he said. 

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:20 | 1730921 Cynical Sidney
Cynical Sidney's picture

"Significant underperformance of all other sectors relative to equities leads us to argue that credit is poised for outperformance whichever direction the market turns from here. If the rally continues, then on a beta-adjusted basis credit has a long way to go to catch up with equities, while if market softness continues, credit widening should be limited by the fact that it is not very far from the recent (and all-time) wides at the index level" ditto

(through the price discovery process) the market is asking for us to take a big haircut and at some point start the restructuring of debts. should we listen to the markets? your thoughts.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:23 | 1730926 snowball777
snowball777's picture

The frying pan is poised to present a better option than the fire...

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:35 | 1730939 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

Hahaha. Nicely put sir.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:49 | 1730963 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

yeah...right upside somebody's head.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:51 | 1730970 Cynical Sidney
Cynical Sidney's picture

gonna hafta cook your meal somehow, pan-fried or fire-grilled

food ain't going to cook itself;

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 15:16 | 1731170 snowball777
snowball777's picture

This may not hold true for some fish off the coast of Japan. ;)

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:30 | 1730932 virgilcaine
virgilcaine's picture

A run is on for US Dollar, why Ben opened the swap'lines. Crash ahead. or Bad things happen when Rates drop and the USD goes up.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:29 | 1730933 10044
10044's picture

tyler, dude, what is all this shit; when ru gonna cover occopy wall st stuff?? going there this afternoon myself

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:44 | 1730952 Cynical Sidney
Cynical Sidney's picture

i'd encourage you to join the protest; the more the merrier

as protesters get maced and arrested, they'll win people's sympathy then the movement could gain traction and build some momentum

in the meanwhile you have my spiritual support

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:37 | 1730943 Snakeeyes
Snakeeyes's picture

Talk about credit dislocation.

http://confoundedinterest.wordpress.com

Case Shiller home prices are likely to fall in the winter due to household deleveraging and lack of credit DESPITE low mortgage rates.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 14:16 | 1731045 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Wow! The bottom just fell out.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 14:45 | 1731114 tickhound
tickhound's picture

Definitely a Ray Charles.  And once again, the hope will be that "extreme winter weather" will justify the decline.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:49 | 1730965 redytogo
redytogo's picture

Honestly, this article just made my head spin....

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 13:55 | 1730982 thunderchief
thunderchief's picture

Silver will take its rightious place and continue its march higher.   Physical buying is unstoppable and relentlous right now.  If they they hold it down longer I can just buy more. 

My price is anything I can buy under 40 for the next two months.  Then anything under 50 after that.   Then as much as I can buy month for month under 100.

 

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 15:44 | 1731220 jdrose1985
jdrose1985's picture

LOL...that's gonna hurt.

Don't forget the bucket of KY.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 16:09 | 1731296 css1971
css1971's picture

um, Moneyweek have a chart somewhere...

S&P correlation with the silver to gold ratio. Basically if stocks tank, the silver to gold ratio is going to hit 80.

http://www.moneyweek.com/~/media/MoneyWeek/indicators/gold-silver/gold-silver-11-09-30.ashx?w=550&h=311&as=1

 

The trade is cash, or gold if you want to stick to PMs.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 18:56 | 1731621 oldman
oldman's picture

I like you, boy, but you goin' ti ride ol' silver right into the ground  om

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 14:08 | 1731016 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

i'm trying to figure out what the connection between European debt to US equities is first. I would argue a massive dislocation in European debt markets would be good for US equities just from the fact that you can get still get price discovery over here. i imagine if the banks all get nationalized then that's another thing entirely. that truly would be a profound undertaking however--and i doubt it would ever happen in Spain...nor could it happen in Italy. Anywho I agree high yield debt in the USA has been signalling trouble in growth areas for some time now. But simply equating "growth in credit" to "growth in a growth business" is too simplisitic. The reason these companies are "growth" to begin with is because they have a business irrespective of credit. (Unlike say healthcare companies that are tied to the mast of both credit AND government btw.) That was the secret to the Rockefeller business empire: there was no lack of demand for the product...EVER--and since there was basically an umlimited supply of oil ("Why are you so wealthy?" was answered "because God wanted me to be." LITERALLY!) eventually the "market came back to them." As interest rates continue to fall at what point do the banks say "without lending to someone other than the government we're dead anyways"? i say those that are surviving say "everywhere and always do we lend." we'll see of course...but the continued strength in the natural gas space still says capital formation isn't just alive and well...it's doing even better as these interest rates fall. (which should spill over into production, growth and hiring as well.) i agree though that in the "non-Federal government" sense of the term "interest rates for governments are rising." does it get anymore capital intensive than running say...France or England? How about California then? Or oil rich Venezuela?

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 14:31 | 1731074 ivars
ivars's picture

Comparison charts between DJIA prediction and actual prices 8 months after forecast:

http://saposjoint.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2626&start=0&st=0&sk=t&...

http://saposjoint.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2860#p34298

http://saposjoint.net/Forum/download/file.php?id=3031

 

Accuracy  for last 2 months ( since it was long term forecast, I consider that most important) - 0-5%.

Future trend- accelerating downturn, reaching 10 000  in November 1st, 2011, 9500 end of December 2011, 7500 March 1, 2012, then more or less stable ( as USD takes a hit-devaluation from q2, 2012) , 7000 Nov 2012 ( elections)!

http://saposjoint.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2626&start=0&st=0&sk=t&...

From earlier correlations, such stock market prices means 2-4% drop in GDP starting from Q1 2012.

And loss of internal and external creditor trust in the USA debt leading to default - starting from Q2 2012 once double recession is obvious and future is even less happy.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 21:54 | 1731853 Market Efficien...
Market Efficiency Romantic's picture

I would currently be very careful with any allocation argument basically drawn from correlation reasoning. The US and EUR debt issue dismasks accepted assumptions and beliefs of the capital markets. Such an event logically creates a revolution concerning the conceptual linkage of asset classes. Further more, geo-strategically, the current events appear to mark a major shift of capital between regions, asset classes etc. So, no correlation from the former regime will reliably tell you what the future is about to bring.

GS PPTs and alikes only provide a reasoning for the herd to stand up as a buyer for assets to be dumped by the elites or as an unintentional villain of political strategy.

Overall, that is not supposed to mean, credit is not the best alternative. The equity story of ever elevated PE valuation is crashing due to global doubts concerning the infinite growth paradigm. This makes equity in the near, medium and long term more risky than credit, which is conceptually senior to equity. From an abstract point of view the global credit crisis appears to be a fear campaign lowering the price for credit to allow for easy, cheap and non-market moving shift of elite capital from equity to credit.

Only take a look at US treasuries, seemed doomed in June, even PIMCO shorted, then having survived the 'almost-default', treasuries soared and provided equity-like returns for investors and pain for PIMCO having bought the fear scam.

And above that capital market context, the real powers moving the world at one point need to shift capital to credit to fullfill their policy, I think the time has come.

From here on, there is the awareness for risk an soveign debt, increasing interest. With national budgets not being balanced for the years to come, additional capital will be needed from a stagnating world economy. That even more increases interest and makes credit more appealing than equity.

The side effect: With equity ownership, you can push policy, with sovereign debt ownership you can strongly influence policy and with the argument of cutting off necessary credit supply, you can make policy.

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