Doug Casey On Taxes And Freedom

Tyler Durden's picture

via Doug Casey of Casey Research,

The always-outspoken Doug Casey addresses a broader view of taxation and its costs to both individuals and society in general in this interview with Louis James.

L: Doug, the Taxman cometh, at least for most US citizens who file their annual tax papers on April 15. We get a lot of letters from readers who know about your international lifestyle and wonder about the tax advantages they assume it confers. Is this something you care to talk about?

Doug: Yes; something wicked this way comes, indeed. But first, I have to say that as much as I can understand the guy who flew his airplane into an IRS building, as we once discussed, I do not encourage anyone to break the law. That's not for ethical reasons – far from it – but strictly on practical grounds. The Taxman can and will come for you, no matter how great or small the amount of tax he expects to extract from you. The IRS can impound your assets, take your computers, freeze your accounts, and make life just about impossible for you, while you struggle to defend yourself against their claims and keep the rest of your life going. The number of IRS horror stories is beyond counting. As the state goes deeper into insolvency, its enforcement of tax laws will necessarily become more draconian. So you absolutely don't want to become a target.

L: So… just bow down and lick the boots of our masters?

Doug: Of course not. People can and should do everything they can to pay as little in taxes as possible. This is an ethical imperative; we must starve the beast. It could even be seen as a patriotic duty – if one believes in such things – to deny revenue to the state any way possible, short of endangering yourself. Starving the beast may be the only way to force it back into its cage – we certainly can't count on politicians to make the right choices – they're minions of the state. They inevitably act to make it bigger and more powerful. It's sad to see well-intentioned people supporting someone like Mitt Romney because they naïvely think he'll reduce the size of the state and its taxes. The man has absolutely no ethical center; he'll just try to change the government to suit his whims.

L: Can you expand on the ethical imperative aspect?

Doug: Yes. The first thing is to get a grip on who owns the moral high ground. The state, the media, teachers, pundits, corporations – the entire establishment, really – all emphasize the moral correctness of paying taxes. They call someone who doesn't do so a "tax cheat." As usual, they have things upside down.

Let's start with a definition of "theft," something I hold is immoral and destructive. Theft is to take someone's property against his will, i.e., by force or fraud. There isn't a clause in the definition that says, "unless the king or the state takes the property; then it's no longer theft." You have a right to defend yourself from theft, regardless of who the thief is or why he is stealing.

It's much as if a mugger grabs you on the street. You have no moral obligation to give him your money. On the contrary, you have a moral obligation to deny him that money. Does it matter if the thief says he's going to use it to feed himself? No. Does it matter if he says he's going to feed a starving person he knows? No. Does it matter if he's talked to other people in the neighborhood, and 51% of them think he should rob you to feed the starving guy? No. Does it matter if the thief sets himself up as the government? No. Now of course, this gets us into a discussion of the nature of government as an institution, which we've talked about before.

But my point here is that you can't give the tax authorities the moral high ground. That's important because decent people want to do the morally right thing. This is why sociopaths try to convince people that the wrong thing is the right thing.

If an armed mugger or a gang of muggers wanted my wallet on the street, would I give it to them? Yes, most likely, because I can't stop them from taking it, and I don't want them to kill me. But do they have a right to it? No. And every taxpayer should keep that analogy at the top of his mind.

L: I also believe that the initiation of the use of force (or fraud, which is a sort of indirect, disguised, form of force) is unethical. It doesn't matter what the reason for it might be nor how many people might approve of the action. But some people claim that taxation is really voluntary – the price one pays for living in society… and if I'm not mistaken, the US government says the federal income tax is voluntary.

Doug: [Snorts] That is a widely promoted lie. It's propaganda to help statists claim the moral high ground, confuse the argument, and intimidate people who aren't critical thinkers. Just try not volunteering to pay it and see what happens. Taxation is force alloyed with fraud – a nasty combination. It's theft, pure and simple. Most people basically admit this when they call taxation a "necessary evil," somehow mentally evading confrontation with the fact that they are giving sanction to evil. But I question whether there can be such a thing as a "necessary evil." Can anything evil really be necessary? Can anything necessary really be evil?

Entirely apart from that, if people really wanted anything the state uses its taxes for, they would, should, and could pay for it in the marketplace. Services the state now provides would be offered by entrepreneurs making a profit. I understand, and am somewhat sympathetic, to the argument that a "night-watchman" state is acceptable; but since the state always has a monopoly of force, it inevitably grows like a cancer, to the extent that the parasite overwhelms and kills the host. That's where we are today.

I think a spade should be called a spade, theft should be recognized for what it is, and evil should be opposed, regardless of the excuses and justifications given for it. Ends do not justify means – and evil means lead to evil ends, as we see in the bloated, corrupt, dangerous governments we have all over the world.

L: That runs counter to the conventional wisdom, Doug. Evil or not, most people think taxation is part of the natural order of things, like rain or day and night. Death and taxes are seen as the two inevitable things in life, and you are a silly idealist – if not a dangerous madman – if you believe otherwise.

Doug: That saying about death and taxes is both evil and stupid; it's a soul-destroying and mind-destroying perversion of reality. It's evil, because it makes people reflexively accept the worst things in the world as permanent and inevitable. As for death, technology is actively advancing to vanquish it. Who knows how far medicine, biotech, and nanotech can delay the onset of death? And taxes are, at best, an artifact of a primitive feudal world; they're actually no longer necessary in an advanced, free-market civilization.

People also once thought the world was flat, that bathing was unhealthy, and that there was such a thing as the divine right of kings. Many things "everyone knows" just aren't so, and this is one of those. A government – for those "practical" people who think they need one – that stuck to the basic core functions of police and courts to defend people against force and fraud and a military to defend against invasion, would cost a tiny, tiny fraction of what today's government costs, and that could be funded in any number of ways that essentially boil down to charging for services.

As it is now, the average US taxpayer probably works half of the year just to pay direct and indirect taxes. That doesn't even count the cost of businesses destroyed by regulation and lives lost to slow approval of new treatments by regulators, or a million other ways governments burden, obstruct, and harass people.

L: I just looked, and Tax Freedom Day this year was April 17.

Doug: That means that all the work the average guy does until April 17 goes to pay for the government that failed to protect him on September 11, 2001, failed to protect him from the crash of 2008, and continues failing him every day. We pay for an organization bent on doing not just the wrong things, but the exact opposite of the right things in economics, foreign policy, and everything else we've talked about in all our conversations. It's rather perverse that Emancipation Day – the day the first slaves in the US were freed in the District of Columbia in 1862 – is April 16. But what is a slave? He's someone who is deprived by force of the fruits of his labor. Sound familiar? I disapprove of slavery, in any form – including its current form.

However, Tax Freedom Day is an incomplete way of looking at things. What's the cost to business forced to install equipment to meet government regulations? That's not paid as a tax, but it's a serious burden. There's something called Cost of Government Day that's a somewhat more inclusive estimate of the burden the state imposes on the average guy…

L: I just looked for that too and don't see that a date for 2012 has been announced yet; but Cost of Government Day for 2011 was August 12. According to that estimate, the average US taxpayer slaved away for about two-thirds of the year to pay for the state and got to keep only a third of the fruit of his labor for his own benefit and improvement.

Doug: That may be a more accurate way of looking at the burden of government the average guy has to bear, but it still doesn't even begin to address what economists call "opportunity cost." Basically, I don't just look at what the state we have costs us in cash, but in terms of the innovation and growth we don't have because of government policies, laws, and regulations. This covers everything from new medicines to all sorts of new technologies to different forms of social and business organizations to the cleaner intellectual atmosphere I think we'd have without government propaganda machines cluttering it up.

I don't believe in utopia, but I do believe our world could be far freer, healthier, and happier than it is today – without any divine intervention, magic, or changes in the laws of physics. Just a different path, every bit as possible as the one we've taken to where we are today.

L: As in the alternative reality L. Neil Smith wrote about in his book The Probability Broach?

Doug: At least as far as the humans in that story go, yes, it's a good illustration of how much more advanced the world might be, based on a different turn of events.

Back in this world, I think that without any major differences in technological development and without assuming that people would spontaneously become angels, the average standard of living worldwide would be much higher if… Well, there are lots of turning points, some of which we've discussed. Just in the 20th century, things would be very different if America had stayed out of WWI, or had not ratified the 16th Amendment to the Constitution, or had not elected FDR.

L: Okay, but those things did happen, and we live in the world we have today – the one you call a prison planet. How should people try to do what's right in such a world without ending up in jail?

Doug: First, it's important to think about what's actually possible, because people will not even try to reach for what they are sure is impossible. The world needs idealists to challenge us all to aim higher… including idealists willing to go to jail for what they believe in, like Thoreau. But even he said that while he encouraged all people to disobey unjust laws, he wouldn't ask those who support families to get themselves locked up and leave their families destitute.

So my take is as we started out saying: It is both ethically and practically imperative to starve the beast. The less cooperation of any sort we give the state – but especially the less money we give it – the less mischief it can get into. We're unlikely to get politicians to vote for getting the state off our backs, out of our pocketbooks, out of our bedrooms, and out of other people's countries as a matter of principle, but we could see the state get out of places it doesn't belong simply for lack of funds. And if everybody treated minions of the state with the contempt they deserve, most of them would quit and be forced to find productive work. As Gandhi showed us, civil disobedience can not only be an ethical choice, but a very powerful force for change.

L: Any specific advice?

Doug: Get a good accountant, take every deduction you can, and look for ways to legally reduce your tax burden. For example, our readers should know that charitable contributions in the US get deducted after the alternative minimum tax wipes out your other deductions. That means that a substantial fraction of every dollar you give a registered 501(c)(3) nonprofit does not go to the federal government.

Now, as you know, I don't believe in charity, at least not in the institutional sense, but wasting money on charities is far, far better than giving it to the government to use bombing innocents and creating enemies for generations to come. And if that charity happens to be something like the Institute for Justice, the Fully Informed Jury Association, or any of the other libertarian think tanks dedicated to reducing the size and scope of government, you get to help fight the beast and starve it at the same time.

L: I do my economics and entrepreneurship camps in Eastern Europe under the auspices of the International Society for Individual Liberty – of which I should disclose that I am a director. I have to admit that it pleases me greatly to see funds that would have gone into making bombs to drop on foreigners and hiring more goons in uniform to oppress people at home redirected to something I consider constructive.

But what about the international diversification question: can that help reduce your tax burden back home?

Doug: It's different for different countries, and each individual should consult a tax specialist with the details of his or her own case, or proposed case. However, there is an exclusion for Americans who live abroad for a whole tax year – it was around $100,000 the last I looked. So there are very good tax reasons for Americans to live abroad. There are even better reasons for Canadians, Europeans, and almost everyone else to leave their native country – many can live 100% tax-free. I guess it's just a sad testimony to the medieval-serf mentality that most people suffer from that few people take advantage of this. They're born someplace, and they stay rooted there, like a plant. Oh well, everybody basically makes his own bed, reaps what he sows, and gets what he deserves…

However, as appealing as the "permanent tourist" idea is, I recommend international living first and foremost as a way to protect your assets. As we've discussed before, real estate in foreign countries cannot be repatriated or confiscated by the government that thinks of you as its milk cow. There is nothing illegal or nefarious about buying real estate abroad, and it could come in very handy if things get really chaotic back home, wherever that happens to be.

L: Okay… any investment implications to discuss?

Doug: Sure, but nothing new to our readers. Starving the state-beast is the right thing to do, ethically and practically, but I believe the state's days are numbered anyway. The thing to be aware of is that the beast won't go quietly, and in its death throes it can do a lot of harm. Still, like Nietzsche said, "That which is about to fall deserves to be pushed."

In the meantime, much higher taxes are on the way. More and more currency controls are coming. You may have heard that the US is contemplating a law denying issue or canceling the passport of anyone accused of owing more than $50,000 in taxes. I expect the transformation of what was once America into a police state to continue, and I expect other "developed" nations – especially Europe, Canada, and Australia – to follow suit. And this will happen whether or not the global economy exits the eye of the storm as I expect it to.

So you want to rig for stormy weather and invest for continuing crisis. Own gold for prudence, speculate on related stocks and others that may benefit from government profligacy, and as we've just been saying, diversify your assets and personal living arrangements internationally.

The day is coming when your local government may stop seeing you as a milk cow and start seeing you as a beef cow, and you want to have options before that day.

L: The Casey mantra. Any chance you're wrong?

Doug: Anything's possible. But we just asked ourselves that question in our conversation on the illusion of recovery, and I just don't see a way out for the old economic order.

L: Okay, Doug. I hope our readers don't tune us out for sounding like a broken record – I believe it's vital that they do take action, preparing for more volatility in the markets ahead. And hedging one's bets against social chaos may sound a bit extreme, but as an option, it sure is something that can help one sleep better at night.

Doug: I didn't formulate the rules for this crazy game; I'm just trying to play it competently.

L: Right then. Until next week.

Doug: Next time.

[For more thought-provoking ideas from Doug Casey – as well as actionable investment ideas – be sure to preorder the entire audio collection of Casey Research's upcoming Recovery Reality Check Summit. You'll hear every minute of every presentation… get specific investment information from over 30 experts… and be better prepared for what the future holds. Plus, if you order now, you'll get the set at a generous discount.]

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ebworthen's picture

Horse and buggy, outhouses, gold standard.

THAT is a sustainaible world; we have gone past that to a levered fantastical dystopia - as high as it may make you sometimes.

Uber Vandal's picture

Even the 1920's and 1930's had running water and electricity in a number of areas, and nearly any town that was something more than a bar, church, and post office had a rail line or trolley running to it.

In my opinion, reverting back to the 1920's would not be too difficult at all, reverting to 1820, that would be more difficult, but the Amish don't seem to complain much about it.

There were steam cars, steam locomotives, steam ships, dirigible air ships, steam tractors, and pretty much steam everything in use.

Unfortunately, even though the USA is the "Saudi Arabia of coal", a lot of the infrastructure that was in place at that time no longer exists, nor the skills to bring it back, and lest we forget, the legislation and regulation.

Sort of something like is mentioned here:


ebworthen's picture

True that.

Nature will impose it's limits upon us, despite our best efforts.

Hedge accodingly.

Harlequin001's picture

I actually have a lot of time for Doug Casey, many of his views are similar to my own but this i disagree with entirely.

'People also once thought the world was flat, that bathing was unhealthy, and that there was such a thing as the divine right of kings. Many things "everyone knows" just aren't so, and this is one of those. A government – for those "practical" people who think they need one – that stuck to the basic core functions of police and courts to defend people against force and fraud and a military to defend against invasion, would cost a tiny, tiny fraction of what today's government costs, and that could be funded in any number of ways that essentially boil down to charging for services.'

This idea seems fine until someone borrows money to buy an army to invade you, and then you have no choice but to borrow to defend yourself or be destroyed.

A gold standard is no more sustainable now than it ever was, but it is a good basis to bounce off on our next jolly jaunt into the next fiat system. The global economy is cyclical, bouncing between fiat and real money because reality demands it. To believe otherwise is naive at best, and downright dangerous at worst. just ask anyone who encountered a Royal Navy battleship paid for with borrowed money...

Most people don't object to taxation if it's seen to be well spent, but who in their right mind will accept banker bailouts as money well spent, or the growing ranks of the unemployed taking my money in free handouts?

Zero Govt's picture

the penny clearly has not dropped for you (like the other 99%) that the State is the biggest thug and thief in society and has a war machine that creates all wars. Ridding ourselves of the State, by not paying taxes, reduces violence and war by 90% globally

the State does not bring peace, it organises theft, economic destruction and war. Period.

How is the institution of Govt doing in Greece? Well it averages bankruptcy (economic chaos) every 14 years

How is Govt doing in Israel? Well it hasn't resolved a dispute with its Palestinian neighbours in 80 years. In fact the thug Israeli State has turned the Palestinian territory of the West Bank into an Orwellian hell with 500 check-points treating the people like numbered cattle

The State escalates violence, prolongs disputes and multiplies injury and death to untold insane levels. 

The global village would be a mssively safer and more sane and wealthier place without the deranged inept destructive toilet of Government

Suggesting paying "a little bit of tax" is like volunteering for a little bit of cancer. It's this type of wooly stupid thinking that is the thin end of the wedge to the big cancer that is Govt

2,000 years of Govt and the evidence is conclusive: Govt is a sewer socially and economically. Game Over Govt

Harlequin001's picture

Surely you can't believe this.

Look around you, I don't know where you are and frankly couldn't care less but I do know that left to no government as you suggest, you are free for as long as it takes for the marauding hordes, and by that I mean ANY marauding horde to arrive and impose it's will upon you, and there is nothing you can then do about it. If you dispute this go look at Africa, where the slaves came from. They had no government and that didn't work out too well did it?

Government seems to be doing fine in Israel if you are Israeli, sucks to be a Palestinian but then that's what happens when you have an inadequate government which attacks its neighbour and loses.

'Well it hasn't resolved a dispute with its Palestinian neighbours in 80 years. ' - well perhaps they should have done what the Romans did and simply annihilated the opposition, then we wouldn't have this problem would we? It's a good job the Palestinians, and everyone else had a government that could pressure the Israeli's to prevent it isn't it?

Throughout history human beings have always clubbed together and formed in bands and alliances primarily for defense. Paying for it has got nothing whatsoever to do with cancer. That's not going to change just because you choose to make yourself defenseless by standing alone. Or perhaps in your world there is no fighting, greed, hate and everyone lives happily ever after on the penny that's obviously dropped for you, but not for the other 99% of sane people still inhabiting this planet that require something more reliable than mere hope to build a business and a family upon.

The issue (for most of us) is not whether we should have government or not, but whether government has now gone too far by interfering in ordinary citizens lives and imposing itself too far with high taxes that are at often squandered.

'The global village would be a mssively safer and more sane and wealthier place without the deranged inept destructive toilet of Government' Do you really think so? Just asking because if we ever got there I'd be the first to come banging on your door the first time I got hungry and couldn't be bothered to work or grow my own food, or if I merely needed someone to come and work for me for free for life at the point of a gun, or a lash, or just plain brute force. There is a reason why we choose to have government and that's not going to change, the issue for many here is whether government has overstepped its mandate and taken too many liberties with citizens rights and wealth.


Ghordius's picture

Well put. The human being is a social animal that loves to form families, bands, groups, genii, mafias, tribes, associations, companies, organizations, syndicates, territories and nations, which then go on with the process.

Of course, the bigger the groups, the more powerful they become and the more the question of corruption and leadership becomes hot.

Homo homini lupus est - wolfes are social animals, too, the lone wolf is a deranged pitiful example, goes mad and usually dies quickly.

narapoiddyslexia's picture

This government has gone too far.

Zero Govt's picture

ALL Govt is a step too far 

No Govt does anything productive, it's a parasite on productive society and destroys wealth and economic activity at a rapid rate... that's what the unemployment cues are telling you

only in good times is the Govt wealth destruction hidden because there is plenty to go around... in bad times the Govt is exposed for the economic black hole it is

Bush, Benny and Bumma have tripled debt-spending and they have 0.0000 GDP or reduction in unemployment to show for it... 100% proof Govt is a shithole

Nukular Freedum's picture

Doug said;

A government – for those "practical" people who think they need one – that stuck to the basic core functions of police and courts to defend people against force and fraud and a military to defend against invasion, would cost a tiny, tiny fraction of what today's government costs, and that could be funded in any number of ways that essentially boil down to charging for services.

Good summation of the Libertarian principle on government. But who or what body would supply oversight to such private entities? Also, what about the free-rider problem regarding defence of the state? Wouldnt everyone renege on contributing to this, even if they accepted the principle of insurance payments for private police and court facilities?
Great work Doug, Tyler.

Harlequin001's picture

Absolutely, it is the tax rate that is too high, stifles investment and becomes a drag on society, and the governments overbearing attempts to collect it. That doesn't mean that we don't need government.

It doesn't cost anywhere near 40 or 50% of the average workers income in income, capital gains, sales and estates taxes to maintain order and an adequate defense. It should be illegal for government to give even one cent of taxpayer money to any other individual for any reason, including if they don't work. That way there would be lower taxes, plenty real capital, plenty jobs and plenty willing to fill them. The problem is that the money supply is not constant, and can never be for as long as anyone has money to spare, to lend out to others that would buy weapons which leads to booms and busts as others are required to do the same to defend themselves.

That problem, is exacerbated in a fiat environment. Central banking is a good thing if they can be prevented from creating fake money because it provides liquidity to a banking system which we need to raise additional money to defend ourselves, as and when we need it. We don't need to give it away to layabouts who don't work for it, and we certainly should not be made criminals for protecting ourselves from it yet that is the way for the future it seems, if only for the short term...

Zero Govt's picture

We are individuals first and foremost. We choose to socialise with groups when and where we like, for economic reasons (joining a company) of other (joining fans for a football game etc). We also choose to leave groups when it suits our individual purpose, when the group (or geographical location) no longer suits us as individuals ..we move on

"..wolfes are social animals.."

Yep. When it suits them as individuals to be in a pack. It's the same with all life, including man. 

"..the lone wolf is a deranged pitiful example.."

You've done a study of farmers who only visit the local town once a week for supplies yes?

All groupings also have lifespans and die.. because individuals (lone wolfs) decide the grass is greener for them elsewhere. Small numbers start peeling off then larger and larger groups's how America was formed from disgruntled oppressed Europeans

Ghordius's picture

Zero Govt, you were born a babe, like everybody else, dependent on your mother and others. It's not a question of choice. You might grow up, take a wife and find a patch were you are left alone. Then have children, which then are dependent on you - btw in the Roman view and Law you are their government. Which you somehow are, if you are the only director of their education, for example.

I do happen to know a few things about farming - either you depend on technology/trade from the outside (you are part of the economy of that local town which is part of the economy of some city, which is...) or you - and note, this has been true for many millennia - need some 30 people, including children. Which is the size of the primitive bands, btw, both sedentary/farming and nomad.

Of course, if they are all family or fully dependent from you, or not able to influence your decisions, then you can have zero government - from your perspective. Because for the other 29 you are their government. Or you are communal - which is probably not your idea of freedom.

Note that I'm very sympathetic of the anarcho-liberal position - I just remind you that this position, taken to the extreme, leaves the realm of human experience and history. But who knows, we might get the technology in the future for this kind of experiment.

Zero Govt's picture

Harliquin  " are free for as long as it takes for the marauding hordes.."

Not sure you know what "free" is mate. Your fantasising about the dangers of "marauding hoards" when you've already got a marauding murderous thug Govt all over your freedoms and othe rnations citizens.

The politicians have cocked their legs, pissed on the boundaries of every land masse and fabricated a complete sham you belong (are owned) by a nation State.

They have tagged you (passport, insurance etc) and control you with the oppression of rules (Law) and milk your every working day via theft (taxation) to enrich a lazy unproductive obnoxious elite

You think you're free?

If you leave your fabricated country the thieves in the IRS will come after you for up to 10 years to continue milking your work. If they so much as fabricate you owe a debt your tag (passport) will be confiscated and you won't be able to leave your walled prison, sorry "Land of the Free" (cough, splutter)

And now your beloved Leader in Chief can kill in cold blood any of its citizens without trial or you having any right to defend yourself

This is the "freedom" which you believe Govt defends and upholds for you????

The lunatics have taken over the asylum and you're one of the dribbling stupid inmates

Harlequin001's picture

I didn't say that you were free. truth is that you are not free, never were and never will be for as long as someone can point a gun or an arrow or a spear at you.

My point is that we need government for a reason and that reason is no less applicable today that it ever was. The issue is that govt has become overbearing and interfering in my rights, given to me by law to go about my business. Those rights are granted to me as a citizen and protected by a strong defense, which is a function of government and fior clarity, one I do not object to paying for. The solution to your complaint is not zero government but a less intrusive one, In that I can agree.

Government has become overbearing to the extent that all these governments that conspire together need to be constrained. That can only come from a real money system; your solution will not work, never did.

Throughout history we've always had to deal with this, whether its Ghenghis Khan, Alexander the Great, the Caesars, Saladin, the Crusaders and even the British Empire, all should scream at you that you are wrong.

and for clarity, I left the asylum a long time ago, and it wasn't yours either. I did so in the knowledge that when I leave home I become a walking, talking diplomatic incident, whereas if I stayed 'home' I am nothing but a cow to be milked. If there's one thing I'm not it's a dribbling stupid inmate...

centipede's picture

"My point is that we need government for a reason"


And what is precisely that reason that we need somebody to extort and violate us? You mean something like masochism? The fact that somebody is always doing it doesn't mean that we all really need it. Maybe you need it, but please, speak just for yourself.

Harlequin001's picture

You speak my language. That is one of the better reasons for having government. I can go almost anywhere in the English speaking world and ply my trade, communicate easily to name but a few and others can come to my country and do the same..

If you think all that government does is extort and violate you and that you can do better on your own then you really are truly fucking stupid.

centipede's picture

And are you really so fucking stupid thinking that without a government you have to be on your own? A sheep maybe thinks it has to be govern.

Harlequin001's picture

So let me guess, you think you don't need to be, right? Do explain... please, we're all waiting...

and still waiting...

centipede's picture

You can wait all you want. The burden of proof is on the believer and that is you.

Harlequin001's picture

So you've got nothing to say then. I at least have made my point.

As my grandfather used to say, 'any numb cunt can criticise'. In your case he was clearly correct.

centipede's picture

No, you've got nothing to say. You have to show the proof and you do not have one. I do not have to prove anything to be free of extortion. The only numb cunt around here is obviously just you. :-)

Harlequin001's picture

But I've already made my point, you just have to go back and read it.

'You speak my language. That is one of the better reasons for having government. I can go almost anywhere in the English speaking world and ply my trade, communicate easily to name but a few and others can come to my country and do the same..

If you think all that government does is extort and violate you and that you can do better on your own then you really are truly fucking stupid.'

There, fixed it for you, again.

Now then numb cunt, if you would kindly refute this, maybe we can dispense with the puerile insult slinging and embark on some intelligent fucking discourse. That is if you're capable of it, why I seriously fucking doubt.

centipede's picture

You have obviously not a slightest idea what "making a point" means. There is not one single proof in your posts. Those are just your assumptions.

CH1's picture

Well said, ZG. The state IS organized crime, and always has been.

Funny thing is, we all more or less know this, but the denial is so thick that most people never get a peak through it.

Sanksion's picture

One my parent's business was under the theft of the south french mafia, they told us : pay this, it is for your protection.


Guess who would have killed us if we didn't pay for this protection ?


The protector.


Same scheme as one I know well of, named government because it operates on a larger scale.

Harlequin001's picture

That's hardly applicable here...

Sanksion's picture

Why, as long as we paid, we were really protected, nothing bad happened to us.

Harlequin001's picture

No you weren't, you were just 'not attacked". That is a failure of government, and a different thing entirely...

Sanksion's picture

Or my private mafia has failed to keep my wealth safe from the public one. As you wish, no matter for me.

Harlequin001's picture

LOL, It means that you just paid twice. I think we go back to that same old point from here.

Govt today is intrusive because of it's need to collect my money and give it to someone else. It needs to be constrained, not destroyed...

Max Fischer's picture



Why do libertarians always want to revert back to some other century?  Weird. If only we could go back to the Stone Age, we wouldn't have to worry about all these pesky taxes.

Regarding taxes, US tax rates are among the lowest on this entire planet.

And which countries have the highest tax rates?  Sweden, Denmark, Norway.... you know, countries where the standard of living is among the highest.

Ron Paul 2012:  Bring back the Stone Age!


Vlad Tepid's picture

In most of the other countries on that list people actually get something for their tax dollars, not a bloated imperial military superstate.

In another century, America had a government that was loosely based on the orginial Constitution AND a booming economy.  Now we have neither.  The people who are living "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" lives are not 19th century Americans, but those who live under the thumb of the IRS and TSA, Max.  And yes I know that life expenctancy is longer today - Hobbes just seemed appropriate.  And know I shouldn't start a sentence with 'and.'

Max Fischer's picture



How ironic that you'd quote a man who believed the only refuge from a "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short" life was a totalitarian state. For Hobbes, government was a necessity, created to defend and protect mankind - to ensure "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."  To say that you don't benefit from taxes or our government is ludicrous. If you feel so oppressed by our federal government, give Somalia a try - no taxes, no federal government, no pesky regulations, no reliable police force.... pure libertarian paradise.     


JOYFUL's picture

How deliciously ironic of you Maxie, to invoke a term clearly lost upon yurself, in order to describe the illusory utopia of your imaginary friend, the Big Brother state which dispenses justice and jobs to all in return for the modest contribution to the common good which the citizen tax payer makes with unreserved pleasure.

Meanwhiles, outside of yur fantasy bubble of bullshit, a rapacious machine of soul-less wealth destruction strips the citizenry of every vestige of accumulated rights and plunders their personal assets in order to place them at the service a war machine designed to extract tribute and materials from far off places which will subsidize your continued existence as a parasitic offshoot of the money power which invents sub-genius such as your own as it's sole unique contribution to society.

Max Fischer - forgotten pharmacist of the phony freedom formula

Max Fischer's picture



forgotten pharmacist of the phony freedom formula....


Your post, like your other one below, is a little shy of what is commonly referred to as "coherence."  Perhaps you should refrain from putting tabs of LSD in your eyeballs before commenting.  A little more left side of the brain and a little less right side, please.   


JOYFUL's picture

too little, too late Maximillion, like a tired boxer swingin wide n wild,

yur absence of "comprehension" is not a suitable platform from which to launch weak jabs of retort ...As the Augustus Owsley of MKUltra style disinfo diabtribes here, yu fit firmly into the category quoted Max...

left or right, makes no difference a'tall,

all yu doin is tryin to stall.

Zero Govt's picture

Max  - what a sharp cookie you are. Regretably your brain is well and truly pickled atop your high tax Statist beliefs. Such a shame the furthest your IQ will take you is down a human sewer (called Govt) isn't it mate?

Here we go, let's pickle, stuff, roast and carve-up Max on his Statist agenda...

"To say that you don't benefit from taxes or our government is ludicrous."

Can you find anything Govt does that wouldn't cost 3 to 300 times less if it was left to a free market? The answer is a big "NO" from roads to education, from property to healthcare. So to say people are "benefitting" from a service that costs multiples of a free market is the most perverse of all logics, the perversity that riddles the States cancerous arguments.

"If you feel so oppressed by our federal government, give Somalia a try.."

No let's give America a try: 3 illegal foreign wars with over 300,000 civilians murdered by the deranged US Govt war machine. 'Anarchist' Somalia has some going to wrack-up that death toll in human blood eh Max?

Somalia is 2 tribes fighting. Same in Thailand in fact where 2 tribes (Parties) are fighting for the greed of the State apperatus to oppress the other... Govt isn't helping is it?

How about 80 years of thuggery in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? How has democratic Govt 'resolved' that dispute, even the Somalians haven't been going at it that long and they haven't had every twat on the globe try to, from Tony fuking Blair to endless 'diplomatic' missions

And how is democratic Govt doing on the economic front Max?

Wow, doesn't the globe look like a bunch of economic chaos from the wisdom of the State... and Govt is 'solving' the problems of too much debt and too much spending by... wait for it ...spending more and getting deeper in debt!

Isn't that double-dumb with bells on Max our fav' little Statist toerag??

Govt is the dumbest most economically and socially destructive institution ever devised... you're in a pickle Max, you're a total train wreck, like the institution of Govt

Stop Paying Your Taxes ..don't feed the destructive anarchy of Govt

InjuredThales's picture

Ahhh, syphilis mundane strikes again.

Somalia?  The problem with Somalia is too much government, not too little (both religious and secular).  Too many rules and too many rulers: not too few.  Hilarious that you would call this an example of 'libertarianism'. I think you mean 'anarchy', but that wouldn't be strictly correct either.  You don't understand the words you string together.  There's no practical difference between you and a Turing Machine, except in that case the counterparties thought they were dealing with an intelligent subject.  There's no such illusion here.

Nukular Freedum's picture

Interesting counter-example Max. But what do you think are the appropriate limits of govt viz tax, legislation etc?

Pool Shark's picture



How did America grow and thrive for almost 140 years, become a world power, build the world's greatest navy (under T.R.), all without an income tax, prior to 1913?

Thunder_Downunder's picture

70 years of free labour probably helped out a touch... 


*cough* slavery *cough*


Uber Vandal's picture

Only 70 Years of "free" labor??

*cough* Indetured Servants *cough*

*cough* Sweat Shops *cough*

*cough* Prison Labor *cough*

*cough* Company Scrip to only be used at the Company store *cough*

And wonder of wonders, Prison Labor is making a come back....


Thunder_Downunder's picture

Ohhh.... I'm sure all that helps out too :P


Hang on.. if someone works for free (or below market rates), doesn't that mean that they unfairly stole someone elses job? So they're actually hurting the economy? 


Fark me economics is a self-licking icecream...

CH1's picture

Only 70 Years of "free" labor?? *cough* Indetured Servants *cough*

There's no shame in being ignorant, but if you wish to be taken seriously in public, you should learn a thing or two before trying to insult others with your "knowledge."

And that, by the way, requires that you get real books (not school books) and read them seriously. 

TWSceptic's picture

Actually the slaves were allowed to keep a higher percentage of what they produced than working people today. Thanks to the income tax. Slavery was not the reason for a strong US economy though. Low taxes, fewer regulation, and more freedom were.

Thunder_Downunder's picture

Hrmmm.... brings to mind little african smurfs, holding hands and prancing around gayly....



Farcical Aquatic Ceremony's picture

Why?  If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand the answer.  You see, when you travel to places like Belize and Panama, you go to towns where there aren't cameras following you, funded by your taxes.  No cops funded by your taxes.  No stop light cameras funded by your taxes.  No tax-funded idiots chasing a restaurants owner's children and dogs out of their establishment and fining them for breaking hygiene laws. You're expected to act like a respectable, responsible adult, without having to be followed to do so.    What do you have in these places?  Lots of families enjoying each others' company.  Big brothers taking great care of their little sisters.  People of little material wealth, but of immense pride, beauty, and culture.  Which is apparently the 'Stone Age' to you.