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Doug Casey On Taxes And Freedom

Tyler Durden's picture





 

via Doug Casey of Casey Research,

The always-outspoken Doug Casey addresses a broader view of taxation and its costs to both individuals and society in general in this interview with Louis James.

L: Doug, the Taxman cometh, at least for most US citizens who file their annual tax papers on April 15. We get a lot of letters from readers who know about your international lifestyle and wonder about the tax advantages they assume it confers. Is this something you care to talk about?

Doug: Yes; something wicked this way comes, indeed. But first, I have to say that as much as I can understand the guy who flew his airplane into an IRS building, as we once discussed, I do not encourage anyone to break the law. That's not for ethical reasons – far from it – but strictly on practical grounds. The Taxman can and will come for you, no matter how great or small the amount of tax he expects to extract from you. The IRS can impound your assets, take your computers, freeze your accounts, and make life just about impossible for you, while you struggle to defend yourself against their claims and keep the rest of your life going. The number of IRS horror stories is beyond counting. As the state goes deeper into insolvency, its enforcement of tax laws will necessarily become more draconian. So you absolutely don't want to become a target.

L: So… just bow down and lick the boots of our masters?

Doug: Of course not. People can and should do everything they can to pay as little in taxes as possible. This is an ethical imperative; we must starve the beast. It could even be seen as a patriotic duty – if one believes in such things – to deny revenue to the state any way possible, short of endangering yourself. Starving the beast may be the only way to force it back into its cage – we certainly can't count on politicians to make the right choices – they're minions of the state. They inevitably act to make it bigger and more powerful. It's sad to see well-intentioned people supporting someone like Mitt Romney because they naïvely think he'll reduce the size of the state and its taxes. The man has absolutely no ethical center; he'll just try to change the government to suit his whims.

L: Can you expand on the ethical imperative aspect?

Doug: Yes. The first thing is to get a grip on who owns the moral high ground. The state, the media, teachers, pundits, corporations – the entire establishment, really – all emphasize the moral correctness of paying taxes. They call someone who doesn't do so a "tax cheat." As usual, they have things upside down.

Let's start with a definition of "theft," something I hold is immoral and destructive. Theft is to take someone's property against his will, i.e., by force or fraud. There isn't a clause in the definition that says, "unless the king or the state takes the property; then it's no longer theft." You have a right to defend yourself from theft, regardless of who the thief is or why he is stealing.

It's much as if a mugger grabs you on the street. You have no moral obligation to give him your money. On the contrary, you have a moral obligation to deny him that money. Does it matter if the thief says he's going to use it to feed himself? No. Does it matter if he says he's going to feed a starving person he knows? No. Does it matter if he's talked to other people in the neighborhood, and 51% of them think he should rob you to feed the starving guy? No. Does it matter if the thief sets himself up as the government? No. Now of course, this gets us into a discussion of the nature of government as an institution, which we've talked about before.

But my point here is that you can't give the tax authorities the moral high ground. That's important because decent people want to do the morally right thing. This is why sociopaths try to convince people that the wrong thing is the right thing.

If an armed mugger or a gang of muggers wanted my wallet on the street, would I give it to them? Yes, most likely, because I can't stop them from taking it, and I don't want them to kill me. But do they have a right to it? No. And every taxpayer should keep that analogy at the top of his mind.

L: I also believe that the initiation of the use of force (or fraud, which is a sort of indirect, disguised, form of force) is unethical. It doesn't matter what the reason for it might be nor how many people might approve of the action. But some people claim that taxation is really voluntary – the price one pays for living in society… and if I'm not mistaken, the US government says the federal income tax is voluntary.

Doug: [Snorts] That is a widely promoted lie. It's propaganda to help statists claim the moral high ground, confuse the argument, and intimidate people who aren't critical thinkers. Just try not volunteering to pay it and see what happens. Taxation is force alloyed with fraud – a nasty combination. It's theft, pure and simple. Most people basically admit this when they call taxation a "necessary evil," somehow mentally evading confrontation with the fact that they are giving sanction to evil. But I question whether there can be such a thing as a "necessary evil." Can anything evil really be necessary? Can anything necessary really be evil?

Entirely apart from that, if people really wanted anything the state uses its taxes for, they would, should, and could pay for it in the marketplace. Services the state now provides would be offered by entrepreneurs making a profit. I understand, and am somewhat sympathetic, to the argument that a "night-watchman" state is acceptable; but since the state always has a monopoly of force, it inevitably grows like a cancer, to the extent that the parasite overwhelms and kills the host. That's where we are today.

I think a spade should be called a spade, theft should be recognized for what it is, and evil should be opposed, regardless of the excuses and justifications given for it. Ends do not justify means – and evil means lead to evil ends, as we see in the bloated, corrupt, dangerous governments we have all over the world.

L: That runs counter to the conventional wisdom, Doug. Evil or not, most people think taxation is part of the natural order of things, like rain or day and night. Death and taxes are seen as the two inevitable things in life, and you are a silly idealist – if not a dangerous madman – if you believe otherwise.

Doug: That saying about death and taxes is both evil and stupid; it's a soul-destroying and mind-destroying perversion of reality. It's evil, because it makes people reflexively accept the worst things in the world as permanent and inevitable. As for death, technology is actively advancing to vanquish it. Who knows how far medicine, biotech, and nanotech can delay the onset of death? And taxes are, at best, an artifact of a primitive feudal world; they're actually no longer necessary in an advanced, free-market civilization.

People also once thought the world was flat, that bathing was unhealthy, and that there was such a thing as the divine right of kings. Many things "everyone knows" just aren't so, and this is one of those. A government – for those "practical" people who think they need one – that stuck to the basic core functions of police and courts to defend people against force and fraud and a military to defend against invasion, would cost a tiny, tiny fraction of what today's government costs, and that could be funded in any number of ways that essentially boil down to charging for services.

As it is now, the average US taxpayer probably works half of the year just to pay direct and indirect taxes. That doesn't even count the cost of businesses destroyed by regulation and lives lost to slow approval of new treatments by regulators, or a million other ways governments burden, obstruct, and harass people.

L: I just looked, and Tax Freedom Day this year was April 17.

Doug: That means that all the work the average guy does until April 17 goes to pay for the government that failed to protect him on September 11, 2001, failed to protect him from the crash of 2008, and continues failing him every day. We pay for an organization bent on doing not just the wrong things, but the exact opposite of the right things in economics, foreign policy, and everything else we've talked about in all our conversations. It's rather perverse that Emancipation Day – the day the first slaves in the US were freed in the District of Columbia in 1862 – is April 16. But what is a slave? He's someone who is deprived by force of the fruits of his labor. Sound familiar? I disapprove of slavery, in any form – including its current form.

However, Tax Freedom Day is an incomplete way of looking at things. What's the cost to business forced to install equipment to meet government regulations? That's not paid as a tax, but it's a serious burden. There's something called Cost of Government Day that's a somewhat more inclusive estimate of the burden the state imposes on the average guy…

L: I just looked for that too and don't see that a date for 2012 has been announced yet; but Cost of Government Day for 2011 was August 12. According to that estimate, the average US taxpayer slaved away for about two-thirds of the year to pay for the state and got to keep only a third of the fruit of his labor for his own benefit and improvement.

Doug: That may be a more accurate way of looking at the burden of government the average guy has to bear, but it still doesn't even begin to address what economists call "opportunity cost." Basically, I don't just look at what the state we have costs us in cash, but in terms of the innovation and growth we don't have because of government policies, laws, and regulations. This covers everything from new medicines to all sorts of new technologies to different forms of social and business organizations to the cleaner intellectual atmosphere I think we'd have without government propaganda machines cluttering it up.

I don't believe in utopia, but I do believe our world could be far freer, healthier, and happier than it is today – without any divine intervention, magic, or changes in the laws of physics. Just a different path, every bit as possible as the one we've taken to where we are today.

L: As in the alternative reality L. Neil Smith wrote about in his book The Probability Broach?

Doug: At least as far as the humans in that story go, yes, it's a good illustration of how much more advanced the world might be, based on a different turn of events.

Back in this world, I think that without any major differences in technological development and without assuming that people would spontaneously become angels, the average standard of living worldwide would be much higher if… Well, there are lots of turning points, some of which we've discussed. Just in the 20th century, things would be very different if America had stayed out of WWI, or had not ratified the 16th Amendment to the Constitution, or had not elected FDR.

L: Okay, but those things did happen, and we live in the world we have today – the one you call a prison planet. How should people try to do what's right in such a world without ending up in jail?

Doug: First, it's important to think about what's actually possible, because people will not even try to reach for what they are sure is impossible. The world needs idealists to challenge us all to aim higher… including idealists willing to go to jail for what they believe in, like Thoreau. But even he said that while he encouraged all people to disobey unjust laws, he wouldn't ask those who support families to get themselves locked up and leave their families destitute.

So my take is as we started out saying: It is both ethically and practically imperative to starve the beast. The less cooperation of any sort we give the state – but especially the less money we give it – the less mischief it can get into. We're unlikely to get politicians to vote for getting the state off our backs, out of our pocketbooks, out of our bedrooms, and out of other people's countries as a matter of principle, but we could see the state get out of places it doesn't belong simply for lack of funds. And if everybody treated minions of the state with the contempt they deserve, most of them would quit and be forced to find productive work. As Gandhi showed us, civil disobedience can not only be an ethical choice, but a very powerful force for change.

L: Any specific advice?

Doug: Get a good accountant, take every deduction you can, and look for ways to legally reduce your tax burden. For example, our readers should know that charitable contributions in the US get deducted after the alternative minimum tax wipes out your other deductions. That means that a substantial fraction of every dollar you give a registered 501(c)(3) nonprofit does not go to the federal government.

Now, as you know, I don't believe in charity, at least not in the institutional sense, but wasting money on charities is far, far better than giving it to the government to use bombing innocents and creating enemies for generations to come. And if that charity happens to be something like the Institute for Justice, the Fully Informed Jury Association, or any of the other libertarian think tanks dedicated to reducing the size and scope of government, you get to help fight the beast and starve it at the same time.

L: I do my economics and entrepreneurship camps in Eastern Europe under the auspices of the International Society for Individual Liberty – of which I should disclose that I am a director. I have to admit that it pleases me greatly to see funds that would have gone into making bombs to drop on foreigners and hiring more goons in uniform to oppress people at home redirected to something I consider constructive.

But what about the international diversification question: can that help reduce your tax burden back home?

Doug: It's different for different countries, and each individual should consult a tax specialist with the details of his or her own case, or proposed case. However, there is an exclusion for Americans who live abroad for a whole tax year – it was around $100,000 the last I looked. So there are very good tax reasons for Americans to live abroad. There are even better reasons for Canadians, Europeans, and almost everyone else to leave their native country – many can live 100% tax-free. I guess it's just a sad testimony to the medieval-serf mentality that most people suffer from that few people take advantage of this. They're born someplace, and they stay rooted there, like a plant. Oh well, everybody basically makes his own bed, reaps what he sows, and gets what he deserves…

However, as appealing as the "permanent tourist" idea is, I recommend international living first and foremost as a way to protect your assets. As we've discussed before, real estate in foreign countries cannot be repatriated or confiscated by the government that thinks of you as its milk cow. There is nothing illegal or nefarious about buying real estate abroad, and it could come in very handy if things get really chaotic back home, wherever that happens to be.

L: Okay… any investment implications to discuss?

Doug: Sure, but nothing new to our readers. Starving the state-beast is the right thing to do, ethically and practically, but I believe the state's days are numbered anyway. The thing to be aware of is that the beast won't go quietly, and in its death throes it can do a lot of harm. Still, like Nietzsche said, "That which is about to fall deserves to be pushed."

In the meantime, much higher taxes are on the way. More and more currency controls are coming. You may have heard that the US is contemplating a law denying issue or canceling the passport of anyone accused of owing more than $50,000 in taxes. I expect the transformation of what was once America into a police state to continue, and I expect other "developed" nations – especially Europe, Canada, and Australia – to follow suit. And this will happen whether or not the global economy exits the eye of the storm as I expect it to.

So you want to rig for stormy weather and invest for continuing crisis. Own gold for prudence, speculate on related stocks and others that may benefit from government profligacy, and as we've just been saying, diversify your assets and personal living arrangements internationally.

The day is coming when your local government may stop seeing you as a milk cow and start seeing you as a beef cow, and you want to have options before that day.

L: The Casey mantra. Any chance you're wrong?

Doug: Anything's possible. But we just asked ourselves that question in our conversation on the illusion of recovery, and I just don't see a way out for the old economic order.

L: Okay, Doug. I hope our readers don't tune us out for sounding like a broken record – I believe it's vital that they do take action, preparing for more volatility in the markets ahead. And hedging one's bets against social chaos may sound a bit extreme, but as an option, it sure is something that can help one sleep better at night.

Doug: I didn't formulate the rules for this crazy game; I'm just trying to play it competently.

L: Right then. Until next week.

Doug: Next time.

[For more thought-provoking ideas from Doug Casey – as well as actionable investment ideas – be sure to preorder the entire audio collection of Casey Research's upcoming Recovery Reality Check Summit. You'll hear every minute of every presentation… get specific investment information from over 30 experts… and be better prepared for what the future holds. Plus, if you order now, you'll get the set at a generous discount.]

 


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Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:23 | Link to Comment ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Horse and buggy, outhouses, gold standard.

THAT is a sustainaible world; we have gone past that to a levered fantastical dystopia - as high as it may make you sometimes.

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:32 | Link to Comment Uber Vandal
Uber Vandal's picture

Even the 1920's and 1930's had running water and electricity in a number of areas, and nearly any town that was something more than a bar, church, and post office had a rail line or trolley running to it.

In my opinion, reverting back to the 1920's would not be too difficult at all, reverting to 1820, that would be more difficult, but the Amish don't seem to complain much about it.

There were steam cars, steam locomotives, steam ships, dirigible air ships, steam tractors, and pretty much steam everything in use.

Unfortunately, even though the USA is the "Saudi Arabia of coal", a lot of the infrastructure that was in place at that time no longer exists, nor the skills to bring it back, and lest we forget, the legislation and regulation.

Sort of something like is mentioned here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ-4gnNz0vc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:40 | Link to Comment ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

True that.

Nature will impose it's limits upon us, despite our best efforts.

Hedge accodingly.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 03:21 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

I actually have a lot of time for Doug Casey, many of his views are similar to my own but this i disagree with entirely.

'People also once thought the world was flat, that bathing was unhealthy, and that there was such a thing as the divine right of kings. Many things "everyone knows" just aren't so, and this is one of those. A government – for those "practical" people who think they need one – that stuck to the basic core functions of police and courts to defend people against force and fraud and a military to defend against invasion, would cost a tiny, tiny fraction of what today's government costs, and that could be funded in any number of ways that essentially boil down to charging for services.'

This idea seems fine until someone borrows money to buy an army to invade you, and then you have no choice but to borrow to defend yourself or be destroyed.

A gold standard is no more sustainable now than it ever was, but it is a good basis to bounce off on our next jolly jaunt into the next fiat system. The global economy is cyclical, bouncing between fiat and real money because reality demands it. To believe otherwise is naive at best, and downright dangerous at worst. just ask anyone who encountered a Royal Navy battleship paid for with borrowed money...

Most people don't object to taxation if it's seen to be well spent, but who in their right mind will accept banker bailouts as money well spent, or the growing ranks of the unemployed taking my money in free handouts?

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 06:21 | Link to Comment Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

the penny clearly has not dropped for you (like the other 99%) that the State is the biggest thug and thief in society and has a war machine that creates all wars. Ridding ourselves of the State, by not paying taxes, reduces violence and war by 90% globally

the State does not bring peace, it organises theft, economic destruction and war. Period.

How is the institution of Govt doing in Greece? Well it averages bankruptcy (economic chaos) every 14 years

How is Govt doing in Israel? Well it hasn't resolved a dispute with its Palestinian neighbours in 80 years. In fact the thug Israeli State has turned the Palestinian territory of the West Bank into an Orwellian hell with 500 check-points treating the people like numbered cattle

The State escalates violence, prolongs disputes and multiplies injury and death to untold insane levels. 

The global village would be a mssively safer and more sane and wealthier place without the deranged inept destructive toilet of Government

Suggesting paying "a little bit of tax" is like volunteering for a little bit of cancer. It's this type of wooly stupid thinking that is the thin end of the wedge to the big cancer that is Govt

2,000 years of Govt and the evidence is conclusive: Govt is a sewer socially and economically. Game Over Govt

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 07:12 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Surely you can't believe this.

Look around you, I don't know where you are and frankly couldn't care less but I do know that left to no government as you suggest, you are free for as long as it takes for the marauding hordes, and by that I mean ANY marauding horde to arrive and impose it's will upon you, and there is nothing you can then do about it. If you dispute this go look at Africa, where the slaves came from. They had no government and that didn't work out too well did it?

Government seems to be doing fine in Israel if you are Israeli, sucks to be a Palestinian but then that's what happens when you have an inadequate government which attacks its neighbour and loses.

'Well it hasn't resolved a dispute with its Palestinian neighbours in 80 years. ' - well perhaps they should have done what the Romans did and simply annihilated the opposition, then we wouldn't have this problem would we? It's a good job the Palestinians, and everyone else had a government that could pressure the Israeli's to prevent it isn't it?

Throughout history human beings have always clubbed together and formed in bands and alliances primarily for defense. Paying for it has got nothing whatsoever to do with cancer. That's not going to change just because you choose to make yourself defenseless by standing alone. Or perhaps in your world there is no fighting, greed, hate and everyone lives happily ever after on the penny that's obviously dropped for you, but not for the other 99% of sane people still inhabiting this planet that require something more reliable than mere hope to build a business and a family upon.

The issue (for most of us) is not whether we should have government or not, but whether government has now gone too far by interfering in ordinary citizens lives and imposing itself too far with high taxes that are at often squandered.

'The global village would be a mssively safer and more sane and wealthier place without the deranged inept destructive toilet of Government' Do you really think so? Just asking because if we ever got there I'd be the first to come banging on your door the first time I got hungry and couldn't be bothered to work or grow my own food, or if I merely needed someone to come and work for me for free for life at the point of a gun, or a lash, or just plain brute force. There is a reason why we choose to have government and that's not going to change, the issue for many here is whether government has overstepped its mandate and taken too many liberties with citizens rights and wealth.

 

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 07:25 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Well put. The human being is a social animal that loves to form families, bands, groups, genii, mafias, tribes, associations, companies, organizations, syndicates, territories and nations, which then go on with the process.

Of course, the bigger the groups, the more powerful they become and the more the question of corruption and leadership becomes hot.

Homo homini lupus est - wolfes are social animals, too, the lone wolf is a deranged pitiful example, goes mad and usually dies quickly.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 07:42 | Link to Comment narapoiddyslexia
narapoiddyslexia's picture

This government has gone too far.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 08:26 | Link to Comment Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

ALL Govt is a step too far 

No Govt does anything productive, it's a parasite on productive society and destroys wealth and economic activity at a rapid rate... that's what the unemployment cues are telling you

only in good times is the Govt wealth destruction hidden because there is plenty to go around... in bad times the Govt is exposed for the economic black hole it is

Bush, Benny and Bumma have tripled debt-spending and they have 0.0000 GDP or reduction in unemployment to show for it... 100% proof Govt is a shithole

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 10:07 | Link to Comment Nukular Freedum
Nukular Freedum's picture

Doug said;

A government – for those "practical" people who think they need one – that stuck to the basic core functions of police and courts to defend people against force and fraud and a military to defend against invasion, would cost a tiny, tiny fraction of what today's government costs, and that could be funded in any number of ways that essentially boil down to charging for services.

Good summation of the Libertarian principle on government. But who or what body would supply oversight to such private entities? Also, what about the free-rider problem regarding defence of the state? Wouldnt everyone renege on contributing to this, even if they accepted the principle of insurance payments for private police and court facilities?
Great work Doug, Tyler.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 07:53 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Absolutely, it is the tax rate that is too high, stifles investment and becomes a drag on society, and the governments overbearing attempts to collect it. That doesn't mean that we don't need government.

It doesn't cost anywhere near 40 or 50% of the average workers income in income, capital gains, sales and estates taxes to maintain order and an adequate defense. It should be illegal for government to give even one cent of taxpayer money to any other individual for any reason, including if they don't work. That way there would be lower taxes, plenty real capital, plenty jobs and plenty willing to fill them. The problem is that the money supply is not constant, and can never be for as long as anyone has money to spare, to lend out to others that would buy weapons which leads to booms and busts as others are required to do the same to defend themselves.

That problem, is exacerbated in a fiat environment. Central banking is a good thing if they can be prevented from creating fake money because it provides liquidity to a banking system which we need to raise additional money to defend ourselves, as and when we need it. We don't need to give it away to layabouts who don't work for it, and we certainly should not be made criminals for protecting ourselves from it yet that is the way for the future it seems, if only for the short term...

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 08:34 | Link to Comment Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

We are individuals first and foremost. We choose to socialise with groups when and where we like, for economic reasons (joining a company) of other (joining fans for a football game etc). We also choose to leave groups when it suits our individual purpose, when the group (or geographical location) no longer suits us as individuals ..we move on

"..wolfes are social animals.."

Yep. When it suits them as individuals to be in a pack. It's the same with all life, including man. 

"..the lone wolf is a deranged pitiful example.."

You've done a study of farmers who only visit the local town once a week for supplies yes?

All groupings also have lifespans and die.. because individuals (lone wolfs) decide the grass is greener for them elsewhere. Small numbers start peeling off then larger and larger groups ...it's how America was formed from disgruntled oppressed Europeans

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 10:55 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Zero Govt, you were born a babe, like everybody else, dependent on your mother and others. It's not a question of choice. You might grow up, take a wife and find a patch were you are left alone. Then have children, which then are dependent on you - btw in the Roman view and Law you are their government. Which you somehow are, if you are the only director of their education, for example.

I do happen to know a few things about farming - either you depend on technology/trade from the outside (you are part of the economy of that local town which is part of the economy of some city, which is...) or you - and note, this has been true for many millennia - need some 30 people, including children. Which is the size of the primitive bands, btw, both sedentary/farming and nomad.

Of course, if they are all family or fully dependent from you, or not able to influence your decisions, then you can have zero government - from your perspective. Because for the other 29 you are their government. Or you are communal - which is probably not your idea of freedom.

Note that I'm very sympathetic of the anarcho-liberal position - I just remind you that this position, taken to the extreme, leaves the realm of human experience and history. But who knows, we might get the technology in the future for this kind of experiment.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 08:58 | Link to Comment Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

Harliquin  "..you are free for as long as it takes for the marauding hordes.."

Not sure you know what "free" is mate. Your fantasising about the dangers of "marauding hoards" when you've already got a marauding murderous thug Govt all over your freedoms and othe rnations citizens.

The politicians have cocked their legs, pissed on the boundaries of every land masse and fabricated a complete sham you belong (are owned) by a nation State.

They have tagged you (passport, insurance etc) and control you with the oppression of rules (Law) and milk your every working day via theft (taxation) to enrich a lazy unproductive obnoxious elite

You think you're free?

If you leave your fabricated country the thieves in the IRS will come after you for up to 10 years to continue milking your work. If they so much as fabricate you owe a debt your tag (passport) will be confiscated and you won't be able to leave your walled prison, sorry "Land of the Free" (cough, splutter)

And now your beloved Leader in Chief can kill in cold blood any of its citizens without trial or you having any right to defend yourself

This is the "freedom" which you believe Govt defends and upholds for you????

The lunatics have taken over the asylum and you're one of the dribbling stupid inmates

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 09:17 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

I didn't say that you were free. truth is that you are not free, never were and never will be for as long as someone can point a gun or an arrow or a spear at you.

My point is that we need government for a reason and that reason is no less applicable today that it ever was. The issue is that govt has become overbearing and interfering in my rights, given to me by law to go about my business. Those rights are granted to me as a citizen and protected by a strong defense, which is a function of government and fior clarity, one I do not object to paying for. The solution to your complaint is not zero government but a less intrusive one, In that I can agree.

Government has become overbearing to the extent that all these governments that conspire together need to be constrained. That can only come from a real money system; your solution will not work, never did.

Throughout history we've always had to deal with this, whether its Ghenghis Khan, Alexander the Great, the Caesars, Saladin, the Crusaders and even the British Empire, all should scream at you that you are wrong.

and for clarity, I left the asylum a long time ago, and it wasn't yours either. I did so in the knowledge that when I leave home I become a walking, talking diplomatic incident, whereas if I stayed 'home' I am nothing but a cow to be milked. If there's one thing I'm not it's a dribbling stupid inmate...

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 18:09 | Link to Comment centipede
centipede's picture

"My point is that we need government for a reason"

 

And what is precisely that reason that we need somebody to extort and violate us? You mean something like masochism? The fact that somebody is always doing it doesn't mean that we all really need it. Maybe you need it, but please, speak just for yourself.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 21:24 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

You speak my language. That is one of the better reasons for having government. I can go almost anywhere in the English speaking world and ply my trade, communicate easily to name but a few and others can come to my country and do the same..

If you think all that government does is extort and violate you and that you can do better on your own then you really are truly fucking stupid.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 22:01 | Link to Comment centipede
centipede's picture

And are you really so fucking stupid thinking that without a government you have to be on your own? A sheep maybe thinks it has to be govern.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 23:43 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

So let me guess, you think you don't need to be, right? Do explain... please, we're all waiting...

and still waiting...

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 23:53 | Link to Comment centipede
centipede's picture

You can wait all you want. The burden of proof is on the believer and that is you.

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 00:14 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

So you've got nothing to say then. I at least have made my point.

As my grandfather used to say, 'any numb cunt can criticise'. In your case he was clearly correct.

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 00:21 | Link to Comment centipede
centipede's picture

No, you've got nothing to say. You have to show the proof and you do not have one. I do not have to prove anything to be free of extortion. The only numb cunt around here is obviously just you. :-)

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 00:41 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

But I've already made my point, you just have to go back and read it.

'You speak my language. That is one of the better reasons for having government. I can go almost anywhere in the English speaking world and ply my trade, communicate easily to name but a few and others can come to my country and do the same..

If you think all that government does is extort and violate you and that you can do better on your own then you really are truly fucking stupid.'

There, fixed it for you, again.

Now then numb cunt, if you would kindly refute this, maybe we can dispense with the puerile insult slinging and embark on some intelligent fucking discourse. That is if you're capable of it, why I seriously fucking doubt.

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 00:42 | Link to Comment centipede
centipede's picture

You have obviously not a slightest idea what "making a point" means. There is not one single proof in your posts. Those are just your assumptions.

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 00:47 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Tosser.

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 00:52 | Link to Comment centipede
centipede's picture

Very classy as usually. :-)

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 09:46 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

Well said, ZG. The state IS organized crime, and always has been.

Funny thing is, we all more or less know this, but the denial is so thick that most people never get a peak through it.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 09:04 | Link to Comment Sanksion
Sanksion's picture

One my parent's business was under the theft of the south french mafia, they told us : pay this, it is for your protection.

 

Guess who would have killed us if we didn't pay for this protection ?

 

The protector.

 

Same scheme as one I know well of, named government because it operates on a larger scale.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 09:18 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

That's hardly applicable here...

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 09:23 | Link to Comment Sanksion
Sanksion's picture

Why, as long as we paid, we were really protected, nothing bad happened to us.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 09:26 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

No you weren't, you were just 'not attacked". That is a failure of government, and a different thing entirely...

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 09:30 | Link to Comment Sanksion
Sanksion's picture

Or my private mafia has failed to keep my wealth safe from the public one. As you wish, no matter for me.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 09:39 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

LOL, It means that you just paid twice. I think we go back to that same old point from here.

Govt today is intrusive because of it's need to collect my money and give it to someone else. It needs to be constrained, not destroyed...

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:56 | Link to Comment Max Fischer
Max Fischer's picture

 

 

Why do libertarians always want to revert back to some other century?  Weird. If only we could go back to the Stone Age, we wouldn't have to worry about all these pesky taxes.

Regarding taxes, US tax rates are among the lowest on this entire planet.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/international.cfm

And which countries have the highest tax rates?  Sweden, Denmark, Norway.... you know, countries where the standard of living is among the highest.

Ron Paul 2012:  Bring back the Stone Age!

MF

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:14 | Link to Comment Vlad Tepid
Vlad Tepid's picture

In most of the other countries on that list people actually get something for their tax dollars, not a bloated imperial military superstate.

In another century, America had a government that was loosely based on the orginial Constitution AND a booming economy.  Now we have neither.  The people who are living "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" lives are not 19th century Americans, but those who live under the thumb of the IRS and TSA, Max.  And yes I know that life expenctancy is longer today - Hobbes just seemed appropriate.  And know I shouldn't start a sentence with 'and.'

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 02:13 | Link to Comment Max Fischer
Max Fischer's picture

 

 

How ironic that you'd quote a man who believed the only refuge from a "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short" life was a totalitarian state. For Hobbes, government was a necessity, created to defend and protect mankind - to ensure "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."  To say that you don't benefit from taxes or our government is ludicrous. If you feel so oppressed by our federal government, give Somalia a try - no taxes, no federal government, no pesky regulations, no reliable police force.... pure libertarian paradise.     

MF

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 02:50 | Link to Comment JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

How deliciously ironic of you Maxie, to invoke a term clearly lost upon yurself, in order to describe the illusory utopia of your imaginary friend, the Big Brother state which dispenses justice and jobs to all in return for the modest contribution to the common good which the citizen tax payer makes with unreserved pleasure.

Meanwhiles, outside of yur fantasy bubble of bullshit, a rapacious machine of soul-less wealth destruction strips the citizenry of every vestige of accumulated rights and plunders their personal assets in order to place them at the service a war machine designed to extract tribute and materials from far off places which will subsidize your continued existence as a parasitic offshoot of the money power which invents sub-genius such as your own as it's sole unique contribution to society.

Max Fischer - forgotten pharmacist of the phony freedom formula

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 03:50 | Link to Comment Max Fischer
Max Fischer's picture

 

 

forgotten pharmacist of the phony freedom formula....

Huh?  

Your post, like your other one below, is a little shy of what is commonly referred to as "coherence."  Perhaps you should refrain from putting tabs of LSD in your eyeballs before commenting.  A little more left side of the brain and a little less right side, please.   

MF

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 04:10 | Link to Comment JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

too little, too late Maximillion, like a tired boxer swingin wide n wild,

yur absence of "comprehension" is not a suitable platform from which to launch weak jabs of retort ...As the Augustus Owsley of MKUltra style disinfo diabtribes here, yu fit firmly into the category quoted Max...

left or right, makes no difference a'tall,

all yu doin is tryin to stall.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 06:54 | Link to Comment Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

Max  - what a sharp cookie you are. Regretably your brain is well and truly pickled atop your high tax Statist beliefs. Such a shame the furthest your IQ will take you is down a human sewer (called Govt) isn't it mate?

Here we go, let's pickle, stuff, roast and carve-up Max on his Statist agenda...

"To say that you don't benefit from taxes or our government is ludicrous."

Can you find anything Govt does that wouldn't cost 3 to 300 times less if it was left to a free market? The answer is a big "NO" from roads to education, from property to healthcare. So to say people are "benefitting" from a service that costs multiples of a free market is the most perverse of all logics, the perversity that riddles the States cancerous arguments.

"If you feel so oppressed by our federal government, give Somalia a try.."

No let's give America a try: 3 illegal foreign wars with over 300,000 civilians murdered by the deranged US Govt war machine. 'Anarchist' Somalia has some going to wrack-up that death toll in human blood eh Max?

Somalia is 2 tribes fighting. Same in Thailand in fact where 2 tribes (Parties) are fighting for the greed of the State apperatus to oppress the other... Govt isn't helping is it?

How about 80 years of thuggery in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? How has democratic Govt 'resolved' that dispute, even the Somalians haven't been going at it that long and they haven't had every twat on the globe try to, from Tony fuking Blair to endless 'diplomatic' missions

And how is democratic Govt doing on the economic front Max?

Wow, doesn't the globe look like a bunch of economic chaos from the wisdom of the State... and Govt is 'solving' the problems of too much debt and too much spending by... wait for it ...spending more and getting deeper in debt!

Isn't that double-dumb with bells on Max our fav' little Statist toerag??

Govt is the dumbest most economically and socially destructive institution ever devised... you're in a pickle Max, you're a total train wreck, like the institution of Govt

Stop Paying Your Taxes ..don't feed the destructive anarchy of Govt

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 10:05 | Link to Comment InjuredThales
InjuredThales's picture

Ahhh, syphilis mundane strikes again.

Somalia?  The problem with Somalia is too much government, not too little (both religious and secular).  Too many rules and too many rulers: not too few.  Hilarious that you would call this an example of 'libertarianism'. I think you mean 'anarchy', but that wouldn't be strictly correct either.  You don't understand the words you string together.  There's no practical difference between you and a Turing Machine, except in that case the counterparties thought they were dealing with an intelligent subject.  There's no such illusion here.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 10:50 | Link to Comment Nukular Freedum
Nukular Freedum's picture

Interesting counter-example Max. But what do you think are the appropriate limits of govt viz tax, legislation etc?

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:53 | Link to Comment Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture

 

 

How did America grow and thrive for almost 140 years, become a world power, build the world's greatest navy (under T.R.), all without an income tax, prior to 1913?

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:26 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

70 years of free labour probably helped out a touch... 

 

*cough* slavery *cough*

 


Thu, 04/26/2012 - 01:19 | Link to Comment Uber Vandal
Uber Vandal's picture

Only 70 Years of "free" labor??

*cough* Indetured Servants *cough*

*cough* Sweat Shops *cough*

*cough* Prison Labor *cough*

*cough* Company Scrip to only be used at the Company store *cough*

And wonder of wonders, Prison Labor is making a come back....

 

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 01:42 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

Ohhh.... I'm sure all that helps out too :P

 

Hang on.. if someone works for free (or below market rates), doesn't that mean that they unfairly stole someone elses job? So they're actually hurting the economy? 

 

Fark me economics is a self-licking icecream...

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 09:54 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

Only 70 Years of "free" labor?? *cough* Indetured Servants *cough*

There's no shame in being ignorant, but if you wish to be taken seriously in public, you should learn a thing or two before trying to insult others with your "knowledge."

And that, by the way, requires that you get real books (not school books) and read them seriously. 

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 02:18 | Link to Comment TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

Actually the slaves were allowed to keep a higher percentage of what they produced than working people today. Thanks to the income tax. Slavery was not the reason for a strong US economy though. Low taxes, fewer regulation, and more freedom were.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 02:27 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

Hrmmm.... brings to mind little african smurfs, holding hands and prancing around gayly....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(negationism)

 

 

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:57 | Link to Comment Farcical Aquati...
Farcical Aquatic Ceremony's picture

Why?  If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand the answer.  You see, when you travel to places like Belize and Panama, you go to towns where there aren't cameras following you, funded by your taxes.  No cops funded by your taxes.  No stop light cameras funded by your taxes.  No tax-funded idiots chasing a restaurants owner's children and dogs out of their establishment and fining them for breaking hygiene laws. You're expected to act like a respectable, responsible adult, without having to be followed to do so.    What do you have in these places?  Lots of families enjoying each others' company.  Big brothers taking great care of their little sisters.  People of little material wealth, but of immense pride, beauty, and culture.  Which is apparently the 'Stone Age' to you. 

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 02:33 | Link to Comment Max Fischer
Max Fischer's picture

 

 

If life is so wonderful in Belize or Panama, why don't you move?  I've been all over the world, and everyone smiles at me too when I walk into their restaurant or shop. When I approach a tuk tuk driver in Bangkok, I get a huge smile after I give him $2 for a 20 min ride.  His smile is even bigger when I give him an $18 tip - now, he'll be able to eat for a week. Real life in Belize or Panama or Bangkok or whatever is not what you romanticize while you sit on the beach with your $15 Mai Tai from the Ritz's cabana bar.

MF    

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 17:42 | Link to Comment Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

Max  -  the reason you can tip a Bangkok tut-tut driver $20 is our forefathers built highly productive agriculture, industry and energy sectors. Fuk all to do with Govt whose sole purpose is to spend (destroy) it

it is the private sectors of Europe and America that built our wealth base, nothing Govt builds is either profitable or value for money

To connect tax or even more perversely, high taxes, to your standard of living is like saying a sewer makes good perfume

Govt is the most socio-economically destructive institution in history ..all monopolies are ..every Dept of every Govt in every nation throughout all history has been a dirty rotten sham

Govt is a mountain range of non-stop failure, a human toilet of charlatans and bankers/monopolists puppets. The sooner we rid ourselves of this stinking institution the better and the sooner the economic recovery begins

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 02:24 | Link to Comment TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

The correlation between high taxes and a high standard of living in some countries does not prove that taxes increased the standard of living. Countries with high taxes often have strong economies and as a consequence a high standard of living *despite* higher taxes, not *because* of higher taxes. You make the fallacy of confusing cause and effect.

The linked graph also shows countries with a strong economy and a fairly high standard of living while having lower taxes than the US as part of GDP, Turkey for example. Also the graph doesn't tell us anything about how taxes are spend, and other important factors. Ie you did not prove that higher taxes lead to a stronger economy or higher standard of living. You merely showed that *some* countries with high taxes happen to have a high standard of living, without showing a causality.

I'll give you a personal example: I live in Belgium, and so I pay a lot of taxes relative to GDP, yet the Netherlands has a higher standard of living. Disproving your premise.

 

As always with the left, their thinking is simplistic and often shortsighted, completely missing the true causes of societal changes.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 03:15 | Link to Comment TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

Oh wait it gets better. Looks like 'standard of living' is actually an outdated term, it's now called 'Human Development Index' and guess what country scored higher than Sweden in 2011? That's right, the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#2011_report

Looks like the left quotes outdated data from 2009, while data from 2010 and 2011 shows completely different numbers.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 09:57 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

The correlation between high taxes and a high standard of living in some countries does not prove that taxes increased the standard of living.

Of course! The truth is the polar opposite of what the statists say:

Those are just the places where the thugs can steal more and get away with it.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 02:26 | Link to Comment JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

And why do you, O Maxi-priest of the time as linear false paradigm constantly try to convince us to imagine ourselves as travellers on a conveyor belt of historical progression, which, contrary to all of the visible evidence of deteriorating social, moral, economic and quality of life standards, is supposed to be delivering us somewhere that we want to go, rather than moving us one by one into a diabolical stockyard-like setting unnoticeable to all those soothed and medicated by their fantastic  time-saving social-media devices, or hoodwinked by the clever lies of kapos like yourself who cackle in insane delight at the prospect of more innocents led to destruction???

Max Fischer - Roadkill on the Highway of History.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 02:39 | Link to Comment Max Fischer
Max Fischer's picture

 

 

What?

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 02:59 | Link to Comment JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Ok, I'll break it down for yu Maxie -

that "tuk tuk" guy in Bangkok?....

he's not smilin at you for the reason you thought, genius. Did you fall on your head a lot as a youth?  Don't even think of starting to play the sympathy ploy here MAX!

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:57 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

All you need to do is forego national education, drop 20 years from life expectancy, increase average household size by 4 persons, and convince everyone to triple the amount they spend on food... 

 

.. and return their ipad, cause at that level of productivity and disposable income, it aint gonna happen... 

 

Shouldn't be too tough...

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 09:59 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

All you need to do is forego national education..

Dude, seriously? This is your big slam?

If you really do give half a shit, look up "home schooling."

If not, go ahead and be a public dick.

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:15 | Link to Comment Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

FUCK YEA, Ill live back in the early 1900s no prob, as long as I get to play with the choo choo trains, steam power FTW.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:09 | Link to Comment CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

What's going to heat the water on your steam engines?

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 06:16 | Link to Comment RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

How about Fukushima?

Fukushima - converting seawater to steam for the next 1000 years.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 10:01 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

What's going to heat the water on your steam engines?

Note to the Fed overseers: You REALLY need to hire a better grade of troll. Seriously.

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:29 | Link to Comment sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

You need to pay more taxes so we can fund more corporate bailouts and crony capitalism. That's what Warren Buffet wants.

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:54 | Link to Comment vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

FUCK TAXES. FUCK THE GOVERNMENT. THESE FUCKTARDS ARE ALL OUT OF CONTROL. I'M BORN FREE AND I WANT TO LIVE FREE AND THEY JUST WON'T LET ME BE FREE SO I AM READY TO FUCKING GO TO WAR WITH THEM ALL! YEAH I'M FUCKING INSANE, BUT I'M ALSO MORALLY RIGHT AND IT'S MY MOTHERFUCKING CATAGORICAL IMPERATIVE, MY MOTHERFUCKING DUTY, TO NOT GET MILKED BY A BUNCH OF BRAIN DEAD VAMPIRES!

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:55 | Link to Comment Max Fischer
Max Fischer's picture

 

 

YEAH I'M FUCKING INSANE....

Typical libertarian.  At least you admit it, though.

MF

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:01 | Link to Comment vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

I'M NOT LIBERTARIAN OR ANY OTHER BRAINDEAD LABEL OR MEMBER OF TEAM PARTY ETC. TO BE INSANE TODAY IN THIS CONTEXT IS TO BE CORRECT. TO BE LIKE YOU IS TO BE THE SHEEPLE. YOU WANT NEO-MEDIEVALISM THEN YEAH GO AHEAD AND PAY 40%+ TAXES WHICH BTW ARE BEYOND REGRESSIVE, WHILE THAT POS PREZ GETS AWAY WITH PAYING 20%, AND THAT'S OFFICIALLY.

 

AND THAT MOVIE THAT YOUR MONIKER IS FROM...THAT MOVIE IS FACILE AND CLOYING AND CHEAP.....

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:04 | Link to Comment Max Fischer
Max Fischer's picture

 

 

That's weird.  You got an up arrow at the same time of your posting.  In fact, you got an up arrow on all three of your posts within mere seconds of each being posted.

*LOL*

MF

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:28 | Link to Comment vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

There. Now go fuck yourself and die, in real life son, not in that shitty movie.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 02:33 | Link to Comment MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

Yes that film is a piece of shit,  Thanks for reminding me (sort of).

Congratulations on getting the bean-dip out of your CAPLOCK key.

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:42 | Link to Comment Ness.
Ness.'s picture

"Maxie!?.. You still awake?  Time to go to bed.  You have school in the morning."

 

 

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 01:18 | Link to Comment AgShaman
AgShaman's picture

Nice to see you are keeping track of the colored arrows.

When do you wake the fuck up and start taking the hint?

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 06:22 | Link to Comment RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

That's weird.  You got an up arrow at the same time of your posting.  In fact, you got an up arrow on all three of your posts within mere seconds of each being posted.

 

I often up-arrow my own posts; it's because our educational system has filled me with an excess of self-esteem.  I also view it as a sort of cloud-seeding, encouraging more up-arrows to form a gentle rain of affirmation - or even as the lone, hopeful dollar a bum will place in his hat when he starts another hard day of begging.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 04:10 | Link to Comment SeattleBruce
SeattleBruce's picture

"Typical libertarian."

Hey Fischer, you had a down arrow before you even typed that response....Other than fighting loooong drawn out wars, can you name one thing that goobermint does better than the private sector?  Government should do a limited number of things, and we'd all be WAY better off.

*LOL*

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:58 | Link to Comment vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

THE GOVAMPIRES NEED TO BE EXTERMINATED!

 

IF THEY TAKE ONE AWAY AND YOU SAY NOTHING, SOONER OR LATER THEY'LL TAKE YOUR ASS AWAY! FIGHTCLUB! FIGHT THE GOV CLUB!

 

AND THAT POS OBUMMER PAYS 20% TAXES? FUCK HIM!

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:38 | Link to Comment vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

INSANITY: TO ROLL OVER AND HAND OVER 40%+ OF YOUR WORKING LIFE TO GOV FUCKTARDS?

INSANITY: TO NOT HAND OVER 40%+ OF YOUR WORKING LIFE TO GOV FUCKTARDS?

 

WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION DOES IT SAY YOU SHOULD PAY TAXES? WHILE IN THE CONSTITUTION IT ALLOWS FOR CITIZENRY TO BEAR ARMS AGAINST AN OPPRESSIVE GOV (THAT TAXES WITHOUT REPRESENTATION). 

 

SO WHO'S REALLY FUCKING INSANE?

 

AND WHERE THE FUCK IS THAT ALLEGED CONSTITUTIONAL SCHOLAR ON THE SUPREME COURT WHEN WE NEED HIM? EVERYONE TALKS A BIG GAME BUT NO ONE HAS ANY BALLS -- ZERO BALLS WILL GET YOU FUCKED EVERY SINGLE TIME. THE MEEK ONLY INHERIT OPRESSION; THE SHEEPLE ONLY GET RAPED IN THE FIELDS BY THE GOV AND ITS AGENTS, AND THE AGENTS NEVER PAY A LA SECRET SERVICE STIFFING THE WHORES ON OUR TAXPAYER DIME AND CLOCK -- FUCK TAXES CAN I GET ANY MORE COUNTRY SIMPLE MOTHERFUCKERS?!

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:47 | Link to Comment vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

PUT ANOTHER WAY: IF YOUR ASS WAS TOILING AWAY ON YOUR FIELDS AND SOME FUCKTARD CAME AROUND AND SAID I'M TAXING YOU 4 OUT OF EVERY 10 BUSHELS OF WHEAT; 4 OUT OF EVERY 10 UNITS OF WHATEVER THE FUCK IT IS YOU PLANTED, NURTURED AND HARVESTED -- WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK THE CORRECT RESPONSE TO THAT IS? IT'S TO PULL THE TRIGGER AND BLAST THAT FUCKTARD IN THE FACE WITH YOUR SHOTGUN. PERIOD.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:32 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

Wow.. those caps really added emphasis. I am EXTRA impressed, and the CAPSNESS HAS CONVINCED ME YOU MUST BE RIGHT. OH MY, I'M DOING IT TOO! LOOK DAD I'M DOING IT! 

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 01:12 | Link to Comment vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

WOW you focus on the caps and not the content. wow WOW wOw WoW now that you can comprende!

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 01:18 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

Yeah.. I'll be honest, thats pretty much all I took away from your post. 

 

I'll give you a little green ^ arrow, consider that positive reinforcement for the new civilised you.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 01:51 | Link to Comment vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

says the 2-headed zombie. and projecting your daddy issues is rather transparent so just like your dad beat your ass i gave you the -1; consider it a minor idiot tax.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 01:57 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

As i've been saying all along,  I don't mind paying a reasonable tax.

 

(See look, I even read your post that time! That's your civility bonus prize. It's easy as Caps-Lock off!)

 

 

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 10:04 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

As i've been saying all along,  I don't mind paying a reasonable tax.

Ahh.. what a good and obedient little sheep you are!

Line up now... follow the sheep in front of you.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 19:18 | Link to Comment InjuredThales
InjuredThales's picture

I love the open-endedness of this statement.  Reasonable is such a reasonable word.  Who wouldn't object to reasonableness?  Now that's a word whose scope has grown in the same direction as government!

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 06:30 | Link to Comment RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

I don't wish to inflame you VAST-DOM, but in reality Obummer pays zero taxes; since what he is paid is first stolen from some productive person, or borrowed from Uncle Wen to be placed squarely on the backs of our yutes (and let's all pray our 'education' system has rendered them moronic enough not to realize the violent fist-fucking they are in for) his entire paycheck is naught but spoils and plunder.

Look at it like this - if you could carry a pistol into a bank, steal 200,000 dollars and then had to give back 20K to the bank, have you in fact been taxed? Surely not. And would you complain? No, you'd be robbing banks daily.

You VAST-DOM of the capital letters, are the bank. And you are being robbed, daily.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 12:05 | Link to Comment vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

I'm with you Rafter, I'm with you. I just point out that even his official 20% taxes as announced to sheeple is egregious to begin with -- like a fuck you to all.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 03:48 | Link to Comment GernB
GernB's picture

No, what Warren Buffet wants is to raise the top tax rate for all rich people beyond 35% because it's not fair he pays 12%.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 17:36 | Link to Comment dizzyfingers
dizzyfingers's picture

sun tzu: fuck that.

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:31 | Link to Comment ACP
ACP's picture

Hey that's terrorist talk!

Send this Casey guy to GITMO!!!

Giving all your money to the government is patriotic because Biden says so!

 

Only the Treasury Secretary is allowed to evade taxes and get away with it!

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:33 | Link to Comment edstar
edstar's picture

ok, so he hates taxes and distains (all) charities. it just sounds like selfishness to me!

I'm happy to pay a certain amount of tax. I live in Australia and consider that I get something for them .... I got a heavily subsudised university course (paying about 20% of the true cost with a subsidised loan). Recently I got admitted to hospital for 5 nights. Completely free.

As for the international living idea, some people want to stay in proximity to their friends and loved ones. More so than reducing their taxes to nil.

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:33 | Link to Comment ACP
ACP's picture

I think the key phrase there is "...I get something for it."

That doesn't apply here in the US, unless you're an irresponsible jackfuck with 11 children.

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:50 | Link to Comment edstar
edstar's picture

Yep, you may well be right. About 30% of the Americans I meet in Sydney tell me how Australia sucks (eg cable and internet cost about 3-4 times that of the US). 

I tell them to FOAD. And pay their taxes.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:02 | Link to Comment Renfield
Renfield's picture

Doesn't apply in Australia either. Too many morons like edstar who get their daily hit of the Sydney Morning Spin and think that the government gives "free" shit away and paying for it DOESN'T come from future taxes or just straight bloody debt. And if the next two generations have to pay for their parents' education and healthcare, that's just fine, innit. So very "unselfish" of them not to want to pay for their own bloody classes and care for themselves.

This is one of the reasons we had to leave Aus. Too much "free" shit and not enough damn private wealth, and we preferred NOT to go broke just trying to make it to retirement paying for everyone else's government programs. Kinda wanted our own home and retirement one day. I know, I know, damn we're selfish.

After awhile it gets really, really old telling yourself, "But we're the Lucky Country...She'll be right...Property always goes up..."

How telling that the American Dream is "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", and the Australian Dream is...to own a house. Talk about cultural cringe. Christ knows, with Aus being one of the last, now (thankfully) beginning to collapse, property bubbles, that has indeed been but a dream for far too many Aus citizens. That and affordable groceries.

But then, in Aus, I guess building private wealth, and staying free of debt, is "selfish". So we may be poor, but at least they love us at church and the "unselfish" get to go to Heaven. Who knew poverty had such an upside.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:19 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

ahh... lets all bask in the warm glow of 'user pays'.  So you took your health (gov. funded) and your education (gov. funded) and left?

 

If you can't get wealthy here with all the tax dodges in the system, decent free education, and decent free healthcare, you're either too stupid or too lazy or both. 

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:42 | Link to Comment Renfield
Renfield's picture

hehehe - try again, genius. I was educated outside of the country. Thank God. Therefore, I prefer not to rely on "tax dodges" to "get wealthy"...but nice to have confirmation of the way some of us think when you challenge their "Lucky Country" thoughtstoppers.

There you go using that "free" word again...Is that how you "get wealthy"? By "tax dodges" and getting government "free" shit? Maybe I've been away so long I've forgotten what a bludger is!

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:58 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

 

Because of your education you voluntarily pay more tax then is strictly necessary? 

 

Here I was thinking your position is that tax is evil... Do you always sit on both sides of an issue? You could come back and become a politician....

 

zZzZz

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 07:40 | Link to Comment Burticus
Burticus's picture

I saw this $#!+ coming in 1994 and got permanent resident visas to Australia...NOT easy to get!

I went there and found out to my horror that their gubmint is even more f*cked up than the Untied Socialist States of Amurka.  They have all the same problems, plus some more, and no bill of rights, not even one shredded and wiped with elephant & jackass $#!+.

Now planning to move to South America, like the all-knowing Doug Casey, before capital and border cuntrols are tightened further.

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:18 | Link to Comment LasVegasDave
LasVegasDave's picture

The big fucking lie is "The rich need to pay their fair share"

Really?  The "Rich" pay the majority of taxes collected and take out the least.

The poor, unproductive and unfortunate pay zero in taxes but take the most out of the system.

Fair?

Fuck you Obama, and fuck the lying, syncophant thieves you surround yourself with

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 04:20 | Link to Comment SeattleBruce
SeattleBruce's picture

The rich are not all guilty, and in fact many are hardly innocent of this mess we're in.  Neither do all the poor suck teats and drink at the trough all day long.  The truth of human reality is much more nuanced than that.  But that doesn't make me detest bankstas, their FED RB construct, and captured politicians like obumma (about 90% currently) any less.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 07:28 | Link to Comment jerry_theking_lawler
jerry_theking_lawler's picture

Therein lies the rub....America should be about equality and fairness. EVERYONE should have to pay their equal share. 10% of everything you make should be sufficient. If you are poor and make less, then you should strive to work harder to make more.

How GD simple can this be. Anything else is inequality and should not be tolerated in this 'once' great country. Viva la constitution!!

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:40 | Link to Comment GernB
GernB's picture

There is an amazing irony in the peoele who want to feel entitled to other peoples money calling those other people "selfish" for wanting to keep what is rightfully theirs.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:03 | Link to Comment Renfield
Renfield's picture

Thanks, Gern. Nothing makes me angrier than some entitled Aussie, who benefitted from the low costs of yesteryear, when we were still just a baby country, trotting out the old morality routine to try to blackmail me and my generation to continue paying for their free shit, now that gov has bloated the costs of everything thru the bloody roof.

They can pull the speck out of my eye AFTER they get the fucking log out of theirs, and welcome to it.

We were driven out of our home country by fuckwits like this, who despite being "educated" can't seem to do basic sums or understand the implications of compounding debt.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:18 | Link to Comment edstar
edstar's picture

Not sure if any of the above is referencing me (I'm pretty young).

Anyway, wish you all the best!

 

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 01:54 | Link to Comment Renfield
Renfield's picture

Yeah, you too. If you're young, I also wish you good luck. You're gonna need it.

Sorry if I was too explosive on you but I have had it up to here with my parents' generation lecturing me on propping up their stupid govvie benefits. They've squandered far more wealth than I will ever see, and frankly as long as me and my family are provided for, that is all I ask. I'll wind up supporting them soon enough, and God knows it is not an easy thing to plan.

"Selfish" is a word they are very fond of using, in the next breath after boasting about their govvy-subsidised transit tickets. Meanwhile my husband and I - and my siblings - have had many conversations over how to support them when their pensions run out. They give far more thought to the welfare of their damn beloved government than to themselves or their families, it seems. I can't fathom what they're thinking sometimes, but a lot of it sure comes out sounding like the assumptions that are pilloried in this article. Basically, they trust gov to take care of them and don't seem to understand that "gov" is "us". If the trains run on time (or something sort of close to it) then everything else is fine and no amount of waste can't be rationalised or ignored.

Anyway. I apologise for the insults. It makes me that angry, considering the lengths we have had to go to in order to try to maintain a measure of stability for our own finances, and to try to secure a future, which does include both sets of our goodhearted but improvident parents.

If you're young, you'll get to this point of planning soon enough. I hope for your & your parents sake that it is AFTER the fiat collapse is over. (A fiat collapse that Aus is very much a part of.)

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 04:51 | Link to Comment edstar
edstar's picture

No probs at all. I very much believe in self reliance. It's much better to look after yourself than burden family or rely on goverment (which may not come thru anyway).

In my case I do not own any real estate (conscious decision), have a prudent amount of gold, am self employed with no dependents.

Agree that a fiat collapse is on the cards in Australia. Question timing but I consider myself prepared.

Best wishes with dealing with the extended family!

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 17:38 | Link to Comment dizzyfingers
dizzyfingers's picture

edstar: nothing should be free!! You are a bloodsucker, a vampire. Drive a wooden stake through your heart.

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:31 | Link to Comment max2205
max2205's picture

Huh. We tried that but everyone one kept their BAC accounts

Stupid people

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:40 | Link to Comment Neo1
Neo1's picture

A Banksters defeatism nightmare, Being forced to Return to Real Money=United States Note=Lawful Money. The real reason you pay an income tax, is for the privilege of using a private currency. Also known As A:  Federal Reserve Note, Demand from your bank or brokerage, lawful money and the tax goes away, with a tax exemption on lawful money, all of your money is yours. Use the Remedy within the Federal Reserve Act. http://savingtosuitorsclub.net/  Stop being a Slave!!!!!!  

http://www.21silver.com/?show=merrill&read=federal_reserve_act_remedy  Tax Exemption: http://stormthunder.com/federal-reserve-act/  Web search these four different phrases: Redeemed in Lawful Money  or  United States Note  or Redeemed in Lawful Money Pursuant to Title 12 USC §411  or deposited for credit on account or exchanged for non-negotiable federal reserve notes of face value  

How Corporatism replaced the Republic Thru the Federal Reserve Banking System http://www.blacklistednews.com/Federal_Reserve_Banking_System_/19014/0/0/0/Y/M.html

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 02:16 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Again I say unto thee:  HOW does this square up with direct-deposit(s) of payroll checks?

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:44 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

What a jerk....

 

Most of what's wrong with the USA is visible in the subtext of Dougs position. A-Typical Selfish Entitlement Syndrome. Expects society to exist and play nice, but doesn't want to pay for it. Take a squiz at countries that don't systematically collect Tax doug.

Even the comment about tourism.. yeah, go overseas and enjoy the society constructed by someone elses tax dollars. That's the moral high ground for sure... ZzzZzz

 

US has to fix its corrupt system of government, the social problems have nothing to do with taxation. By international standards, you guys get off lightly.. you just don't get much 'bang for your buck'. Your fearless leaders are too busy being 'capitalists' and lining the pockets of private corporations...

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:35 | Link to Comment Renfield
Renfield's picture

Hahaha, yeah, let's ask an Aussie to tell the States to fix ITS "corrupt government".

Good thing for you most of the commenters on Zero Hedge don't know much about the dear ol' Lucky Country and its politics.

SUCH a good example of the government using its tax monies for the good of its citizens. Especially, if course, of those "citizens" happen to be water-hogging or mining corporates, the property lobby, grocery chain cartels, or banks...or newly-invited Chinese nationals with their property bubble dollars, now invited to become Aussies so the housing bubble will last just a little bit longer....

Frankly, although I don't live in the States and I no longer live in Aus, from what I have seen the average American has slightly MORE influence on their government, than the average Aussie. Then again, maybe I'm splitting hairs when the correct answer for degree of influence, for both, is "near zero".

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:07 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

Every beaurcratic system leaks... its a question of degrees. If you think aussie 'leakage' is in the same ballpark as the US, you've been away too long.

 

No country is perfect, but I think its reasonable to expect a degree of leadership from the world's superpower, or more importantly, from the issuer of the worlds reserve currency. 

 

Besides, the point of the discussion is that taxation isn't evil, its just necessary. You can't pass around the cap and get a neighbourhood road resealed, or fund a police force. Doug's commentary is typical of the greedy BS spouted by so many... but his discontent misses the point.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:33 | Link to Comment Renfield
Renfield's picture

I've been away since September 2010. Define "too long", or give some apples-to-apples, specific comparisons of Aus government's better spending priorities. I'd love to see those!

The US has the reserve dollar, which is designed to run a deficit. It's a stupid design but at least they can print their way out. What's Aus going to do, sell everything to China? Oh, I forgot, that IS what they're doing.

"No country is perfect"...no shit. Can't recall anyone on this thread, except you, even raising "perfection" as a point. Again, the reserve currency is DESIGNED to run at a deficit. That's the whole POINT of it.

The point of the discussion is that taxation is NOT necessary. If you can point out ways that it is, then fine. Having experienced Aussie gov priorities for far too long (and not being a member of the favoured generation), I'd say that using Aus as an example of ANY sort of government priorities is moronic. And although conventional "wisdom" is that roads won't get paved and or a working police force without a bloated bureaucracy wasting heaps of resources to get it done, I call propaganda on that assumption. It's a false dichotomy that "gov runs it or it won't happen" (also one of the points of the article). But frankly I'll drive on a fucking dirt pathway and pay for my own household security, or participate in local watch teams, if it means getting the banksters out of our government. Do you like how Aus manages its policing now? How's muslim crime (or for that matter, bankster fraud) getting cleaned up in your locality? 'Cause in our Sydney suburb, the coppers were a lot more interested in writing parking tickets.

I would be much more interested in a refutation of the specific points actually in the article, perhaps quoting from it, rather than some stupid comparison with Australia, which frankly doesn't come up too well if looked at in terms of government waste. (Which is probably why Aus private indebtedness is about the worst in the western world, with household debt at better than 160% of household income now. Gov has made it near-impossible to thrive there whereas in the US people are at least aware and trying to fight back.)

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:52 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

I merely stated the US was corrupt...  you brought australia into it. You raised the issue of nationality dumbass, read your own work. 

 

Uh... we issue our currency, we could print as well, as much as glen stephens would like... but it would need to be spent on something (you understand of our course that US 'printing' doesn't result in printed money yeah? Just a transfer of debt ownership.. ). 

The US currency design, and getting it adopted was frikkin genius... not stupid. It was the rest of the world that was duped. Bravo USA... Conquered the west while smiling and shaking hands.. Seriously... there is so much wrong with your understanding of currency... 

 

Drive on the dirt pathway down to the supermarket eh? Or you gonna tell me you'll plant carrots in the backyard, guard them and your family with a shotty, whilst going to work, and do it all for less than 30% of your current take home. 

 

We are in the top 10 as far as social mobility goes, the US barely makes the top 50. What are you on about? Household debt is nuts, government policy is at fault... whats your point? 

 

Ignorant or naive is what you are. 

 

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 01:12 | Link to Comment Renfield
Renfield's picture

sigh...there's a difference btwn "printing" as a reserve currency and "printing" as a strictly national fiat. I'll just add that there's a good reason no-one else wants the "reserve currency" slot, and that ain't because it's an advantage.

In "the top 10" for social mobility??? hahahaha - yeah, thanks, was that the latest "survey" from the Sydney Morning Spin? An IMF figure, perchance? My point, and I'll say it slow, is:

A. BLOATED. GOVERNMENT. COSTS. THE. PRIVATE. SECTOR. TOO. MUCH. WEALTH.

A point which you have yet to refute. Being called ignorant or naive by someone who can't back up his assertions with sources or data, is not a bad laugh. So unless you have anything on point to add, and since you can't seem to grasp what I'm "on about", I'll just giggle at your very pertinent differentiation btwn "printing" and "transfer of debt ownership" and move on.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 01:33 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

No, there isn't a difference. Its the same thing.  

 

The 'reserve' status merely means that international trade is settled by default in USD. It is not an obligation, just a convention.  You could settle it in any currency, however that international pricing and settlement would be more challenging for all involved (read: more expensive). 

 

Seriously? There isn't a major power on the planet that wouldn't climb over the still warm corpse of their mother to take reserve status from the US.  

 

IMF

 

PRIVATE. SECTOR. CAN'T. OPERATE. EFFECTIVELY. WITHOUT. RELIABLE. INFRASTRUCTURE. AND. SOCIAL. STABILITY. 

 

Another ignorant aussie... You know nothing, I'm embarrassed for you, you're not even coherent. Spend more time reading, less time posting. Don't expect me to educate you, you're just my lunchtime entertainment.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:56 | Link to Comment Uchtdorf
Uchtdorf's picture

Great comments, with the proper portion of passion.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 06:08 | Link to Comment q99x2
q99x2's picture

Slightly more influence? We have guns and ammo.

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:46 | Link to Comment Abiotic Oil
Abiotic Oil's picture

End the Income Tax!
RON PAUL!

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:49 | Link to Comment l1b3rty
l1b3rty's picture

As Lenin said, the way to destroy the bourgeoisie is via taxation and inflation!!! 

 

http://silvervigilante.com

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 08:20 | Link to Comment EmileLargo
EmileLargo's picture

It may end up destroying the state rather than the bourgeoisie. Lenin's own experiment in Russia didn't end too well........

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:49 | Link to Comment Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

The Federal Reserve is feeling the pain of its own inflation.

 

http://freegoldobserver.blogspot.ca/

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:12 | Link to Comment q99x2
q99x2's picture

The more money you pay them the more bullets they are going to buy the DHS to kill you with.

Of course they have to pay for the 30,000 drones the TSA to feel up your wife and kids not to mention all the f'n zeros they have to give to the banksters.

What are you talking about TAXES!

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:17 | Link to Comment Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

Casey's ethical argument stands or falls on the concept of the state as either legitimate authority or illegitimate authority.  It's polisci 101, like the first day of polisci 101. 

But Casey doesn't prove or even bother to support his argument that the state is no more legitimate than a mugger.  Keep in mind that we're talking about the Constitution of the United States here, which is designed quite consciously as a representative form of government with the power to tax.  I guess Casey thinks it 'unethical' to stop for red lights too as that is also licking the boots of the oppressor. 

Seems like this post is just more entertainment, rather like the mainstream media.  Personally I am as anti-global elite/police state as the next ZHer, but this sort of feel-good sophomoric stuff isn't going to teach anyone anything.

Carry on....

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:56 | Link to Comment vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

PLEASE CITE IN THE CONSTITUTION WHERE IT ALLOWS FOR GOV TO TAX AND WHERE IT RAISES THE POINT THAT CITIZENRY MAY BEAR ARMS AGAINST OPPRESSIVE GOV IN CONTEXT OF TODAY'S REGRESSIVE TAX CODES. 

 

BECAUSE UNTIL YOU SATISFY THE ABOVE YOU HAVEN'T BOTHERED TO PROVE YOUR POINT, WHICH IS FAR MORE TENUOUS AS PRESENTED RELATIVE TO ARTICLE YOU CRITICIZE.

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:59 | Link to Comment GernB
GernB's picture

Then lets talk about the ethical argument. What gives those people the moral right to compel one person to give money to another. Not what makes it a good thing, what makes it morally right. The constitution recognized that democracy without limits is nothing more than mob rule and that to protect individuals from mob rule they must have rights which the government is obligated to protect. Not the least of those rights is the right not to have precious years of their life stolen by taking what they earn with them. If you don't recognize the rights of people to their own time and the money they earn with it, then you advocate a slave state where each person is born into bondage to every other person. You don't believe in freedom.

The problem is you've come to accept that because government has the authority to do something and because the people agree that it should be done, that makes it morally and ethically right. You are confusing authority and democracy with right and wrong and they are not even close to the same thing. Right and wrong exist independently of what the majority thinks. It is thinking that democracy leads to a moral society that led to Hitler coming to power in a democratic society,

The author is clearly recognizing that government has the power to take money from tax payers, and that the majority can vote to have the government take money from people for the benefit of the majority, but that does not mean it is not theft.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:13 | Link to Comment Midas
Midas's picture

I'm going to agree with Jim on this one.  The absolutists are so confident because they have never considered any other ideas.  Casey rants about starving the beast, running from the man, and not supporting the system, and then tells people about the benefits of owning foreign property.  WHERE DO YOU OWN THIS PROPERTY IN COMPLETE FREEDOM?  I ask because I want to know.  I am ready to go international, and I want to know where the tax free land is.  And a 100,000 deduction is only good if the country you are in doesn't tax it.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:31 | Link to Comment vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

Here's an idea: cease all taxation and allow the government via the fed to print the money it needs. since right now the gov taxes and hence limits consumer spending and business and essentially subverts capatalism while meddling in everyone's business as well as prints money via the fed. 

so instead of bailing out those intsitutions which under true capitalism cannot function, they should use said bail out monies to run the bare essentials requisite for minimum government.

 

remember, gov is here to serve its people, NOT the other way around. and as such, the gov is not in the business of being in business ie meddling with TBTF corporations and shackling the free hand of the markets -- the most the gov should do is enforce minimal restrictions and regulations on illegal anti-capitalistic activities that the very same bailed out corporations are allowed to get away with by the gov and then get bailed out over and over again! this our forefathers would say is prime cause for REVOLT.

 

today the gov is here to starve its people = fuck the gov!

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 03:54 | Link to Comment GernB
GernB's picture

What is lost in the discussion is the concept of the necessity of taxes to pay for the protection of individual rights, and collection of taxes at the whim of the majority for whatever purpose they colletively agree is desirable. The former is necessary because someone has to pay for the protection of rights, the latter is the majority abusing their power to turn others into slaves to their vision of how society should work.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:11 | Link to Comment Javalizard
Javalizard's picture

To legally and lawfully stop paying taxes to the federal corporation and the state corporations, cancel your SSN. It's better than filing bankruptcy, it's easier and faster also. This makes using your corporate statutory fictitious person an act of fraud. ;)

You can demand the use of gold and silver, and if the bankers refuse, it cancels the debt! (because then it isn't a debt as defined by the constitution). This works for home mortgages, car loans, credit cards, and student loans.

Imagine living life without a credit score? Can you say freedom?

http://qbit.cc/how-to-cancel-your-social-security-number-and-birth-certi...

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:26 | Link to Comment rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

I have a better idea, instead of starvation--let's put a 12GA double  barrel shotgun up it's fucking ass and blow it's goddamn eye balls out of it's skull from the rear.  Fuck the IRS..........they deserve DEATH.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 00:54 | Link to Comment trgfunds
trgfunds's picture

It's strange. If the goverment can tax corporations, and corporations can pass that tax onto consumers via price increases, and corporations/govt pay our payroll, then why is there a need to tax the individual? Further. If you have control of the currency through the central bank, why is there any need for tax at all? Essentially, they have a myriad of far more efficient shadow taxation methods at their disposal. It makes no sense to me why we have hundreds of millions of americans scrambling to file "returns" and painstakingly tallying up complex financial calculations every year. The overhead must be ridiculous. Is this some kind of psychological submission mind control thing or what? Any thoughts?

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 01:15 | Link to Comment vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

allow me to answer your most excellent question: because government is here to control the freedoms of the individual at the expense of the corporations. because today government is a perversion and a vampiric one at that. because the government can't survive without sufficient plasma and that involves meddling with the individuals' freedoms. 

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 01:29 | Link to Comment trgfunds
trgfunds's picture

Vast, thanks for the response. but, all arguments aside as to how much they need to take or whether or not government is a perverted blood sucking bloated entity, it still makes NO logical sense to have millions of americans running around filing these crazy complex tax returns. Most of them don't even understand it anyway. Most of the returns are probably wrong. Honestly, just use a combo shadow tax with tax through the corporations / control prices. It's all the same damn thing. Basic math. Taxes are a function of GDP, so what? So that makes me think either the governments are extremely stupid, or there is some kind of psychological mind control game going on here.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 01:53 | Link to Comment vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

total mind control. complexity catastrophe breaks the individual and forces them to get an accountant which in turn is another level of control for the average person. since the average person usually doesn't get a superstar accountant nor do they have major assets to in turn convolute the IRS with etc.....that there is another form of control too.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 12:03 | Link to Comment Nukular Freedum
Nukular Freedum's picture

A simple consumption tax to pay for the basic functions of govt. police, courts and army. Its called a "fair tax" for a reason. It is foolish to tax production but sensible to tax consumption; one should reinforce savings and investment behaviour and punish consumption and bankruptcy behaviour. Ergo a consumption tax and a minimalist state apparatus.
As for the courts, what principles of justice should they operate under to render government/legislature redundant?

http://pearlsforswine.wordpress.com/2011/12/04/a-dilemma-how-to-reform-t...

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 01:45 | Link to Comment BlackholeDivestment
BlackholeDivestment's picture

...law? There is no ''law'', there is only law enforcement morons and the military in defense of their own lives as the beast and they are certainly not standing in defense the Constitution etc... The lawless nature of the domestic global market beast is the spirit of contempt, that is what law enforcement is now. Anyone who stands in defense of the governments, that have constructed the global market beast, they are all subject to the rule(s) of the law(s) that have been set in place to defend the beast. This means war against the people, war without cause for public review, as with MCA and NDAA etc... in reverse. The people are subject to lawlessness and that is prophetic.

Does anyone really believe the beast is loading it's gun to secure the life liberty freedom and justice for all? LMAO http://www.naturalnews.com/035649_DHS_ammunition_domestic_war.html

http://en.rian.ru/world/20120419/172916144.html 

Only those whom are above the lawless beast can claim mercy as an escape. This does not mean abuse, prison etc... and death are avoidable, it just means people, that do not accept the global market beast, must suffer until the beast runs it's course, which at this point will not go beyond another 4 years. 2013 will not end without people rising up in the streets, leading to the unbecoming point of revolution, on a multi national scale, to the point of world war three, by the time 2014 to 2015 comes rolling in.  

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2012/04/24/exp-erin-netanyahu-peace-deal.cnn#/video/bestoftv/2012/04/24/exp-erin-burnett-benjamin-netanyahu.cnn 

http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-3.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7Ig2JJRpdo 

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 02:02 | Link to Comment Shazam342
Shazam342's picture

It is patriotic to pay as little taxes as legally possible, and hide as much in assets as legally possible as well.

 

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 07:13 | Link to Comment Silverhog
Silverhog's picture

Future US austerity should be no new wars without an economic review. Those who want to go to war with us must submit written requests plus a deposit of half their GDP in Gold and  other mineral assets. A waiting period of 90 days will ensue. Then if your accepted, you will be notified with your return receipt mailed in the nose of a cruise missile. 

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 08:18 | Link to Comment EmileLargo
EmileLargo's picture

There comes a point at which taxation simply does not work and everyone starts to evade taxes with impunity. This happens already in most of the world and America will go in that direction (not the other way round). Once America becomes a third world country, your tax rate will be determined by the bribes you are willing to pay to the tax collectors. Hey, Mexico is right across the border from America and that is how things work there today!

 

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 08:22 | Link to Comment EmileLargo
EmileLargo's picture

One irony of modern life is that medieval serfs paid a lower rate of tax to their "Lords" than most taxpayers in modern "free" nations pay today.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 08:42 | Link to Comment Cultural Capital
Cultural Capital's picture

"However, there is an exclusion for Americans who live abroad for a whole tax year – it was around $100,000 the last I looked."

Does anyone have anymore information about THIS?? 

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 09:37 | Link to Comment Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture

Harlequin001: Please, you've got to be kidding. Your thesis is, "but we need fiat money, to protect us, because evil agressor nations have it."

Max Fischer, Civis Mundi: Your disdain for liberty - and libertarians - is tiresome. Don't worry, the All-Powerful State is still firmly in control, so I don't see what you are worried about.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 10:01 | Link to Comment Nukular Freedum
Nukular Freedum's picture

Doug said;

A government – for those "practical" people who think they need one – that stuck to the basic core functions of police and courts to defend people against force and fraud and a military to defend against invasion, would cost a tiny, tiny fraction of what today's government costs, and that could be funded in any number of ways that essentially boil down to charging for services.

Good summation of the Libertarian principle on government. But who or what body would supply oversight to such private entities? Also, what about the free-rider problem regarding defence of the state? Wouldnt everyone renege on contributing to this, even if they accepted the principle of insurance payments for private police and court facilities?
More brilliant work from Doug, thanks Tyler.

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