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Dutch Finance Ministry Says Greek Default Is Unavoidable, Immediately Retracts
Even though it has since provoked a firestorm of denials and refutations, the reality is that Dutch media RTLZ probably had some very good sources (certainly better than the FT's yesterday when China was supposed to LBO Italy for the 4th time in 2011) to release the following information, namely that according to the Finance Ministry, the bankruptcy of Greece is inevitable, and that the "question is no longer whether but how Greece goes bankrupt." Additionally, Reuters added that according to Jan Kees de Jager, "We are studying scenarios in secret together with the Dutch central bank (DNB) and also with other countries. We are looking at our own economy, our government finances, the financial sector and consequences for Europe," De Telegraaf added that the "other countries" also included Germany and Deutsche Bank. He said it was difficult to let a country go bankrupt in a controlled way. "Always, if something goes wrong there are effects on other countries, on central banks. So you will have to take into account side-effects. That is precisely the reason why we are looking at different scenarios behind closed doors." A ministry source later confirmed a report on Dutch broadcaster RTL that the scenarios being studied included default by Greece. Of course, in keeping with the European M.O. of spreading a rumor, gauging the market response, and if response is unpleasant, to immediately refute it, Dow Jones and everyone else has since reported that the Dutch were only kidding and were not calling for an orderly default for Greece. Sure. Just preparing for one. Huge semantic difference there...
As for what the original information disclosed, before it was watered down by French political interests, here is the full piece from De Telegraaf:
A spokeswoman for the Ministry of Finance said in response that all scenarios are prepared for Greece, including a bankruptcy. "But that's not where we control or hope." Minister Jan Kees de Jager (Finance) said earlier in the day that all the scenarios, probable and improbable, are examined in consultation with De Nederlandsche Bank and other countries. He then wanted to confirm or deny that a Greek bankruptcy prepared.
Green in the House as soon as possible to clarify the Hunter.
A spokesman for De Nederlandsche Bank (DNB) said in response that it is the responsibility of the supervisor to monitor the financial stability. This applies also to calculate various scenarios and policies to inform the findings. It is the European Central Bank and the politicians to connect them to conclusions, the spokesman said.
Banks are preparing
The Dutch financial sector is increasingly beginning to prepare for a bankruptcy of Greece. Scenarios are out of the closet and risks are discussed, as was Tuesday from a tour. About the contents of any steps in a Greek bankruptcy, and the potential impact on the sector, banks have remained silent.
Rabobank are the most concrete. CFO Bert Bruggink indicated Tuesday that Greece, in his bankruptcy. ,, The only question is when,''he said. A spokesman for the bank reported that Rabobank, all scenarios''for a so-called 'default' is ready. ,, But that goes for all other scenarios,''he added. The key to a solution to the problem lies in the Greek banking politicians.
Rabo said on August 24 is the provision was made for an amount of 104 million euros of Greek government bonds. The cooperative bank had 347 million euros in Greece at the time outstanding.
Possibilities
ABN Amro has no specific plans for a Greek bankruptcy, but look at all the risks and opportunities. A spokesman for ING's request did not specify whether scenarios are discussed.
It did the spokesman of the financial group ING is a Greek bond portfolio of over 1 billion euros. ,, The amount we have in our books on Greek government bonds in them, as large as the profits we get''in three months, so nuanced it. According to ING, the Greek crisis is not proportional to the credit crisis in 2008.
Netherlands would be impossible for Greece to assume the debt obligations to meet and advocate that the country goes bankrupt in a controlled manner. That should prevent panic in the financial world.
And completing the pre-intervention picture from Reuters:
Dutch financial daily Het Financieele Dagblad reported earlier on Tuesday that Bert Bruggink, chief financial officer at leading Dutch lender Rabobank, warned that Greece's bankruptcy was inevitable.
"The question whether Greece goes bankrupt is behind us now. The only question is when it will happen," Bruggink was quoted as saying.
Within a few weeks, the Dutch finance ministry will publish results from "shock tests" and what the shocks mean for government finances, whether recapitalisation of banks is needed, and what other measures might be necessary, De Jager said
Lastly, and most ironically is the following clip with former Greek Finance Minister Stefanos Minos who says what everone knows: that Greece needs to take drastic spending cuts measures, when this is precisely the last thing they are doing.
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Greece is now NOT FIXED......bitchez!!!!!!
Psssssh, the Martians will soon be landing to bail out Europe.
Paul Krugman will be very pleased.
Krugman will be even more pleased when the Martians land in a highly populated urban area causing millions and billions of dollars in damage.
I'm for whatever it takes to get past Europe, so we can once again focus on the total moral and financial bankruptcy of the US government.
(The scene: Frodo has just noticed that something is trolling on the NYT website masquerading as a columnist. It is the emaciated husk of the former economist Krug-lum)
Gandalf: He hates and loves the USA just as he hates and loves himself. He will never be rid of his need to decry it and wish evil upon it in his desire to save it.
Frodo: Its a pity someone didn’t silence him when they had the chance!
Gandalf: Pity? It is pity that keeps him on the rolls of the New York Times, though he costs them subscribers with every column. Many that write such vitriol deserve nothing but scorn and journalistic death. Others blog the honest truth and are never heard. Can you silence the trolls and give the deserving an audience, Frodo? Can you spare the world even one more of his dreadful missives? No, Frodo, Krug-lum has some part to play yet.
Frodo: I wish the collapse had never come upon us. I wish none of this had happened.
Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. But there are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the malice of twisted journalistic malfeasance that Krug-lum represents. Such as him are met with voices of truth at many, many places on the blogosphere. Remember, Frodo, he exists to remind us of all that is evil in the world of the Keynsian crony-capitalist-statist. His ilk are there to show us just what the evil we fight represents. Remember this, Frodo.
No no no, you got it wrong.
China will bail out Europe.
Martians will bail out China.
And Uranus will bail out the Mars.
Don't know if anyone has listened to the interview in English from the former Greek Finance Minister Stefanos Minos at the end of the article (it requires Silverlight plugin), but it is very enlightening!
It is very clear to me now hard default of Greece is inevitable very shortly (yes, I was on the fence and thought they could extend it for a year or two).
Nothing is going to be able to stop this train wreck any more. All that matters is how the consequences are dealt with. It seems all the EU governments are starting to wake up to this reality, but trying their hardest not to say anything.
Thanks for this, ZH!
Hardly, the obvious can be stated more clearly. All but explicitly, Menos says to the eurocrats: Stop behaving like the idiots you are.
I dont understand why Greece people still have deposits in their banks. Should be zero by now?
Between two horrible scenarios which would you pick? Hence we play the game of Kick The Can.
It is "transitory."
-Or-
It is "tradition."
I don't understand why American people still have deposits in their banks (above the amounts needed for weekly transactions). Interest rates are near zero, real interest rates are negative. Buy a year or two supply of whiskey or wine. Stockpile supplies of anything that you normally buy which can last for a year or more. The inflation rate is currently running at 4%, so you can earn 4% on your money (tax-free) by doing this.
My God look at him! Marijuana Thinking at its finest. Greek Default pssssshhht. Either high or insane.
See what happens?! Do ya Holland? Or should I call you The Netherlands?
Tulips, weed and whores, bitchez!
No difference with any other country in the world. US and French folks are using even more stuff.
and a central bank with lots of gold
...unavoidable in a kind of delayed sort of way but wholly unlikely in that there is perfect certitude despite some possibly inevitabilites...
FUCK YOU GLOBAL MARKETS
Greek default is unavoidable.
http://azizonomics.com/2011/09/12/will-china-bailout-the-world/
whats the problem with Europe? I know they dislike war and can't shoot their way out of a paper bag but can they just politely turn their heads as they kick the plug out of the wall and let the zombie die?
I mean - Greece is already dead! Now europe, with its socialized medicine is into afterlife care?
Unfortunately Dignitas is based in Switzerland which isn't part of the EU...
Dank u wel!
Nothing sceams intelligence more than ending a statement with "bitchez" at the end... <sarcasm>
Spellchex, bitchez!
I like lotsa "Bitchez". Especially the gold and silver type.
Nothing screams intelligence more than some n00b who fails to understand where they are before dissing the place.
Here's a hint, things exist the way the do for a reason. Perhaps you might try and figure out why.
The More You Know...
Knowing is half the battle?
After our socio-fascist government implemented all of Germany’s directives, the Greek people have come to an absolute desperation and poverty.
What is also outrageous is the fact that are own government has passed the message to the global banksters and other nations that Greek people are
lazy and incapable.
Today, after two years of screwing and pressing us, most households and businesses have stopped paying. Stopped paying taxes, utility bills, toll fees, or anything else related to the government.
Two hours ago, this same government announced a new property tax (added to the 2 previous ones). This one will be calculated on every and each household, business, cottage, or even a barn for animals. It will be 4 euros per square meter calculated immediately, to be paid by this December the latest.
Once again let me tell you that we are not a lazy nation or useless people.
This has to do with some 4% of the working force, and all of them public servants who were hired by each government in order to gain votes for its next election campaign. So what’s actually happening is the same person who hired those people, now tries to persuade the rest of the nation that they are incapable.
The steps were very wisely thought out and implemented by the globalists.
They made fools out of us
They turned one against the other.
They decreased salaries and wages.
They increased prices of necessary goods.
They put us into poverty.
Now they demonize property by implementing more and more taxes
The next steps are to force us sell our properties to German and Chinese companies, and create jobs in German and Chinese factories for the thousands of hungry.
http://www.entendance.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=801&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&...
forgot the last part:
Please Mac, pass the message. Your people must learn from our suffering.
We are finished.
Alert yor friends, relatives, co-workers.
Be safe and stay alert. It’s coming.
Warning For Americans: Be Safe and Stay Alert. It’s Coming.We didn't need any convincing that Greeks were lazy and stop making up new excuses for why you won't pay your bills... as if you ever did.
Now go get me a souvlaki.
Your government is just super corrupt and good for you not paying taxes to them, smoke their corrupt asses out if you can do it without them throwing you in jail. A petty my gvt stole my money and borrowed it to your corrupt politicians. But that is a petty for my gvt, since they would just have used it to hire more policemen and regulators to fine the crap out of me anyway, so good riddence.
Greece is based on patronage. Welcome to america. However, parts of your story ring true:
The steps were very wisely thought out and implemented by the globalists.
They made fools out of us
They turned one against the other.
They decreased salaries and wages.
They increased prices of necessary goods.
They put us into poverty.
Now they demonize property by implementing more and more taxes
The next steps are to force us sell our properties to German and Chinese companies, and create jobs in German and Chinese factories for the thousands of hungry.
We just got word that food prices would be going up because of heat in the midwest farm growing areas. Well, most of that is corn and because of political stupidness, most of that corn goes to ethanol, not food.
We have turned one against the other in this country -those that understand economics vs. those that don't.
The government uses regulations to punish producers and implements labor laws for wages so that stops hiring.
They haven't demonized property but they have used the court system to make private property more easily condemned to build areas that increase city tax venues.
As for Germany and China taking your jobs? Welcome to globalization 101. We lost the southeast textile workers to Mexico, then Guatamala, then I remember shirts from Viet Nam. Next came parts from Mexico, always from Japan, then from Korea, and then from the behemoth China at 4cents on the dollar.
You've been living in a protected cone. Now you'll have to work harder and compete. Be stressed out, take more medicine, bankrupt your state's healthcare, and remember - its all for the greater good of saving your Greek way of life. Just ask for default. Get out of the euro. Get a donkey and an olive tree and go into farming. I have no easy answers. For you nor me. But we'd like you to tell your government to do something as the rest of the world is waiting for Greece to shit or get off the pot. You're holding up the giant flush that needs to happen to clean out the rest of the system. Thanks.
Friend, all intelligent people know that Greeks are not lazy. I don't know how people can be so stupid as to think an entire nation of people are one way or another. Sadly, there are people who are intellectually lazy and enjoy thinking in stereotypes.
I too am shocked at how the Prime Minister and his party blame the people for corruption, as if they were not one of the two parties in power for decades and responsible for the debt.
The first action of any new government should be to examine the debt and see what is legitimate. This government will never ever ever do that. Unfortunately most Americans do not know how anti-Greek the Greek government is. The Greeks made a huge mistake in voting for them. Still, they should not be punished for their error.
My friend. As a German I can say nothing against you as Greek people. Its our governments and politicians and banksters that created this mess and play us. I totally agree you hide your money and dont pay taxes. I would do the same in your situation.
As the banksters ratchet up their plunder of country after country, Greece is that country where they seem to be finding the greatest popular resistance. It is important that the people stand together, and renounce apathy.
It is in the interests of ordinary people everywhere, to give moral support to, and draw inspiration from the Greek people.
Dear reader, please know the game; sniping and smart-alec comments against the Greeks, betrays that conceit that makes it so easy to facilitate divide & conquer against us.
We are all Greeks now.
step 1: greece
step 2: spain
step 3: France (first jerry lewis loses MDA gig, now this!)
step 4: Citigroup
step 5: US$
step 6: oil for food
step 7: Donner party
step 8: civil war
step 9: Mayan 2012
step 10: bubble party
step 11: cry in fetal position, shart self
step 12: ...?
step 13: Profit!
Germany won't allow Greece to go dead. Too decisive. They like being the flour/water paste in the background and don't want to repeat their prominent role of WW2. This is why Merkel won't take a stand. The people of Germany have been sanitized of nationalism. Its all for the greater good of Europe. This stuff will go on and on and on until 2020. We can now only hope that Spain goes. BTW: as everyone is looking right on the map, how about we look left and see what's going on there as they float under the radar.
Step 10: bunga bunga!
cup your balls.................................................here it comes.
and no. shit the popcorn is running out.
Yesterday we got a market melt-up in the last half-hour, today we get the market melt-down in the last half hour.
Probably why the Eur/Usd just hiccup'd, or was it a gag.
more like a cat hairball...
to true, lol.
At least the Dutch are using their brains...
My Belgium government is one of the 2 european governments who already agreed to launch Eurobonds today... Morons...
Even as all of mainstreet already knows Greece will go down.
Since when do you guys have a government? Let alone an agreeing one. Today I woke up in Bizarro world.
Don't worry, we have 6 governments. It's a bit complicated to explain why a small country like ours has so many but on of them decided to do it.
Funny thing is they didn't even got elected. Democrazy!!
Be Dank but we all knew this already, so...?!
They think they are avoiding a self-fullfilling prophecy by openly talking about a Greek default. Funny. So, we are back to ignoring the 900 gorilla in the room. Yeah, that always works.
Plus, Merkel vowed to do everything to avoid a "uncontrolled" greek default. Nothing said about a "controlled" one.
The matrix is about ready to crash.
I don't see why this is big news. Can anyone come up with a way where Greece does not default? Without the ten years our miraculous savings junk.
I mean, when you are broke is it a crime for someone to say you are broke?
I almost cannot even take this crap anymore. In the US we are all pretending that things are fine. All around me I hear about how Tom Brady threw for a gabillion yards.
People are reaching for anything to NOT have to discuss the elephant in the room.
Why is it we tell kids to enjoy the make believe world when they are young? Cause that is where we are living now.
pods
The Dutch will be okay they are #11 in gold reserves.
Greece is just a Lehman event. Spread the shit around, bitchez.
yes, its ok troika stooges, we will humor you all and believe that money being thrown at greece is done for curative purposes, rather than dilatory ones.
"Green in the House as soon as possible to clarify the Hunter."
-uhh, what?! I mean, I'm not in hgh finance and sometimes the posts are Greek to me, but this phrase reminded me of a line from Get Smart!
Are you sure this WHOLE THING isn't just some big joke?! It's getting NUTS!
Thats google translate for ya. What it actually translates to is: " The Green party (opposition party in Holland) wants a clarification from Jan Kees de Jager (Jager = hunter) about the statements he made about preparing for a greek default asap.
Thanks! I felt like I was somewhere between Candid Camera and the Twilight Zone!
Anyone watching the markets over the last three years would totally agree.
Google translates is kind of an optimistic claim. Often, it's like smoking hash.
Boyscouts motto: Be prepared
I thought it was: Don't be homosexual or is that Greece? hard to keep track.
by now, isn't the interest rate on Greek bonds already 10000%? Maybe if they throw in a couple of apples, eggs and a chicken, they can buy back all of their debt and they would not need to default.
We all know that this needs to happen...the problem is what else is coming. I wouldn't be clapping for joy.
Just to add a little info on typical german mentality:
If a "normal" person gets into bankruptcy, if you are broke out of whatever reasons, be it greed or illness, filing for personal insolvency and having to declare affidavit/bancruptcy before the local court it is one of the worst social stigmas and a horrific nightmare if this ever comes out in public or, beware, gets to the larger family or neighbours.
One will never *in his life* ever again get any credit, a flat above minimum social security standards in a better neighbourhood or anything else for which a good financial standing is needed.
Bancruptcy is filed in the court books for 30 years, and even if one does orderly pay his obligations meanwhile and the file get's deleted before the 30 years are over the info on a former bancruptcy will be like a mark of cain forever branded on ones' data everywhere, from banks to house management companies to employers.
All this is not that bad socially in the larger cities due to the anonymity there, but it is a terrible thing on the countryside - if you live at the countryside you are screwed forever and looked upon as a pariah in the neighbourhood and village/town, as rumour spreads fast and very nasty when bancrupt once. People know no mercy in this regard, none at all. To have had bad luck financially will never ever be forgiven in this country, no matter what the reasons for that bad luck were in the first place.
I thought it was "onto the cattle train with you" and a star on ones clothes. Your way is much more wordy. Thank God for English Common Law...
It´s 7 years, not 30. They changed the law in Germany almost 15 years ago.
Black Swan event of the year: Bernanke will buy tons of worthless European bonds, as a kind of QE3. Geithner will talk with Merkozy this Friday. Euro saved, crisis over.
Here's a nice and rather sincere (for a politician anyway) interview with the Dutch finance minister:
http://www.rtl.nl/components/financien/rtlz/nieuws/2011/37/Financien-gaa...
It's in Dutch, so in a nutshell here's a rough summary and translation of what goes on in the European kitchen of finance;
*) Calls for tough times ahead,
*) Brags about the historic low yield of 2,208% for a Dutch bond auction today for 2.2 billion Euros within 6 minutes, admits that it's a refection of the deteriorating state on the economy and investors looking for a safe haven,
*) He tries very hard to dodge the question whether The Netherlands is working on a possible 'Greece bankrupcy' scenario, however, he admits that 'all possible scenarios are being reviewed.'
*) Admits that they are preparing for different scenarios (regarding Greece) in secret, with The Dutch National bank and also with other nations.
*) Admits that it's "technically very difficult" for a controlled Greek default,
*) Admits that, as a lesson learned from the 2008 financial collapse, the Dutch government is preparing for all possible thinkable and the almost unthinkable scenarios,
*) Is very vague about a possible scenario of what the average Dutch citizen should do with his/her savings, but foresees a lot of unstability over the next few weeks and months.
---------
Personally I'm a bit shocked to see how pessimistic he is about the outlook.
Speculation from my side: 1) are The Netherlands better prepared than other EU countries and does he thnk that it's beneficial for The Netherlands to start the dominos falling, or 2) have secret discussions been taking place for months between The Netherlands, Germany and a few other countries and has Jan-Kees de Jager been given the dirty task to set the Greek default train in motion?
Why didn't you include the R in your nick??
Brokkenrijder :P
Alles goed verder? ( Everything ok? )
Are the Dutch better prepared? Nope. Dutch pension funds own almost twice the GDP of the Netherlands in Euro bonds. But i think Austria, Germany, the Dutch and a few other core Euro states changed their minds over the last 10 days. And they now think it´s better to pull the Greek plug. Welcome to the mule-based economy, Greeks.
To all ZH readers and contributors.
JKDJ ( Jan Kees de Jager ) Is in my opninion a honest guy. So +1 for his comments.
The newspaper Telegraaf can be taken as joke cause the telegraaf ( Also known as televaag according to dutch website geenstijl.nl ) is making very often mistakes in their releases. Neverthless, I still believe Jan Kees.
Yes I agree, De Telegraaf is very close to tabloid level. I don't live in The Netherlands, so I normally don't watch any Dutch/Belgian news, so I was quite surprised to see how honest and straighforward (well...for an openly gay Dutch finance minister anyway, hihihi) he is! Good on him! +1 for Jan-Kees The Hunter!
p.s. hungarianboy, can you show me where I can edit my username? :-)
Ach, ik neem mezelf (en de wereld) niet te serieus en kan er wel om lachen!
MvGr, B(r)okkenrijder! :-D
Sure, the Dutch don't 'call for' violent North Sea storms that could drown their country but, acknowledging that they have occurred in the past and are inevitable in the future, they sure do "prepare for" them.
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My Gold retracted into my vault ...b!tchez!