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Escalation: Syria Says Turkish Jet Shot Down Was Over Syrian Territorial Waters

Tyler Durden's picture




 

The "Syrianna" story from this afternoon, which many were quick to label as merely a lot of diplomatic hot air and rhetoric, just turned uglier, after Syria not only did not officially apologize as Turkey PM Erdogan implied had happened previously for the shot down Turkish F-4 fighter jet, but instead turned the tables on Turkey, and gave itself an out for what is now a definitive military action. From Reuters:

The Syrian military said it shot down a Turkish military aircraft "over Syrian territorial waters" on Friday.

 

"Our air defences confronted a target that penetrated our air space over our territorial waters pre-afternoon on Friday and shot it down. It turned out to be a Turkish military plane," a statement by the military circulated on state media said.

The only question remains whether Syria's act was offensive or defensive. Naturally, its version is one of self-defense. Turkey obviously will claim it was in its right to be wherever the plane may be, and will say this was an act of provocation. Then NATO, read Hillary Clinton, will promptly step in, and make this a case in which Turkey was in its right and that Syria committed an act of aggression. From there, things will just escalate, and can potentially deteriorate to a far more troubling scale, because as we reminded earlier, Syria has recently become a major symbol for NATO vs the Russia-China axis:

Here is the rub: Turkey is a NATO member, and by definition the alliance will have to come to Turkey's aid if requested. Syria, however is not just any country as has been made quite clear over the past several months of UN impotence: it is a critical staging ground for both Russia (which has a very critical regional naval base in the city of Tartus) and China, and according to the Jerusalem Post, the three countries are in preparation to conduct the "largest ever" war game. As such Syria, already gripped by fierce local fighting, where just like in Egypt and Libya the presence of US-based flipflop on the ground can be smelt from across the Atlantic, is merely a symbol. The real implication is how far can little escalations push until finally the showdown begins, with NATO on one side and Russia and China on the other?

Ultimately, the key catalyst here may be something as simple as whether the pilot of the Turkish plane are alive or dead. BBC explains:

Given the breakdown in relations between the two countries over the Syrian conflict, this incident has the potential to provoke a serious crisis. When gunfire from Syrian forces crossed the Turkish border earlier this year, Ankara threatened a military response.

 

Much will depend on whether or not the Turkish pilots have survived. If not, public anger might push the government into some kind of punitive action against Syria.

 

Syria's response will also influence Turkey's reaction. A clear apology, and a statement that the shooting was unintentional, might be enough to assuage Turkish anger.

 

But then again, we do not know yet whether the aircraft were clearly in Turkish airspace or not. Initial Turkish reports that they came down eight miles from Syrian territorial waters suggests that they were, but Syria may claim otherwise.

At this point it is clear no apology will be forthcoming as Syria's official story is that Turkey had effectively committed an act of aggression against it. So it is up to the viability of the pilots. If dead, anyone who may have been shorting Brent into the weekend may have a nasty surprise come start of trading Monday.

Where the crash supposedly happened:

courtesy of @Thalion_1

 

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Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:27 | 2552654 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

Bullish, for some reason.

 

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:28 | 2552656 SheepRevolution
SheepRevolution's picture

I blame the U.S.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:30 | 2552662 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

Jimmy Carters' fault.

 

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:38 | 2552683 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Casus belli, bitchez!

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:05 | 2552751 malikai
malikai's picture

If it really was over Syrian airspace, fair kill. If it was, it should be confirmed by ewacs.

That's how you say stop it in geopolitic-speak.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:11 | 2552772 wisefool
wisefool's picture

Good idea. Unfortunately, I doubt F-4s have GPS in them. The false flag makers are literally digging at the bottom of the barrel to get this rotten stuff started.

We need Al Gore to charge Turkey a carbon tax/emmision test for Turkey to fly these dinasours, such that they have to have NSA tracked gear just like every american 12 year old with an I-Phone. Some of the actual nicknames for the F-4 are "Fuel to Noise Machine" and "ThunderHog". Think of the planet! What would Jesus Fly?

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:21 | 2552784 magpie
magpie's picture

Actually the "other side" just has to preempt Helo-Ben and start dropping their $ over the Middle East and Anatolia.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 20:43 | 2552893 knukles
knukles's picture

25.8 tonnes

25.8 tonnes of Official Gold Reserves

25.8 tonnes of Official Gold Reserves Awaiting a New Owner

"Nobody Cares for Your Gold Like NATO"

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 23:17 | 2553077 wisefool
wisefool's picture

I dont think Gold or silver is a basis for currency. I have reasons for this. The other nick name for the F-4 afficionados justaposed vs. goldbugs is "Bomb Cart for the world"

I have all respect for the old timers. And I like savory food.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 21:15 | 2552935 Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

"What would Jesus Fly?"

Lightning, listening to Metallica. Heard he took Thor in a game of dice for that hammer. Repent bitches.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 23:18 | 2553079 wisefool
wisefool's picture

naw. covered it in context above.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:04 | 2552747 sushi
sushi's picture

Saudi Arabia plans to fund Syria rebel army

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/22/saudi-arabia-syria-rebel-army

Very bullish.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:35 | 2552800 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Yeah, and on the other side, it looks like the Iranian Republican Guard is helping out Assad.

O'Barry's Terror Tuesday briefing for his drone "kill list" just got a little longer ;-)

http://hurryupharry.org/2012/01/28/irans-revolutionary-guard-helping-assad-in-syria/

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 22:15 | 2552989 caconhma
caconhma's picture

Assad is the problem. If an enemy tries to destroy your country, there is no room for negotiations. You must stand up and fight hard bringing pain, suffering, and distraction to your enemy, his country, and his people. You must hit his major population centers and most important industrial and infrastructure center.

Stalin did not negotiate with Hitler. His message was loud and clear: "Death to Hitler. Death to Germans."

This is why, even having nuclear weaponry, America & England did not dare to confront Stalin in an open confrontation.

 

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 00:32 | 2553149 prole
prole's picture

If you have a problem with Assad, I suggest you grab a gun and go deal with your problem.

I have no problem with Assad, in fact, I am openly rooting for the man to prevail!! GO ASSAD!!!!

I forgot to mention to the 'fellas' He has the hottest smokin-hot British/Syrian wife of any world leader hands down no contest fuggetaboutit. Maybe that is why world trolls and gutter men hate him it's out of pure envy of his delightful wife. (Did I mention she was smokin-hot?)

(PS- I take back what I said. Please don't harm the man!!)

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 09:34 | 2553437 Cortez the Killer
Cortez the Killer's picture

I guess ordering your goons to kill innocents is forgiven if you get to cornhole an arab hottie?

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 15:40 | 2554350 prole
prole's picture

I guess if you have no intelligent thoughts in your head, you can just repeat Lamestream Media lies and propaganda and make yourself feel better?

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 10:44 | 2555575 malikai
malikai's picture

10/10.

Excellent work.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 05:06 | 2553276 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

Just call the Spirits from the Clan together and put 18 over there. I see 21 Airbases, 18 of which are worth attacking via one spirit each.

If the Spirits do a good job and don't get caught, Syria might find itself hurting. And no one will know anything at daybreak. Just a bad night's dream.

But why would we even do such a thing? Turkey can spark a war and dominate Syria in the air.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:07 | 2552759 resurger
resurger's picture

Turbo Bullish

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:25 | 2552788 Matt
Matt's picture

BNO + NOC

BNO + RTN

Vote on your picks for maximum profit! Northrup Grumman is a leader in drone manufacturing, while Raytheon is the world's leading producer of missles.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:30 | 2552797 magpie
magpie's picture

The way this trade is going, short Turkey, wait until they got their capital in Europe, then short the Euro to 0. Then long Dollar, or if you are feeling frisky, buy Yuan.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:51 | 2552832 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

This just in: Republic of Hatay mobilizing....But Turkey will do nothing. U remember all the Turks murdered by Israel on that aid-to-Palestine flotilla? Beaucoup de Hot Air from Ankara, then nothing.  

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 00:33 | 2553159 prole
prole's picture

They know better than to displease their masters.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:38 | 2552655 Randall Cabot
Randall Cabot's picture

The Young Turks who carried out the Armenian Genocide were secret jews and secret jews still rule Turkey today so any conflict between Turkey and Syria should be observed accordingly.

Check out the name of the jewish founder of Atlantic Records with the current PM of Turkey:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmet_Ertegun

The Young Turks: http://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/jewishp/turkey/youngturks.htm

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:45 | 2552704 magpie
magpie's picture

Sabbatai Zwi calling

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:28 | 2552658 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

Dont you mean the petrodollar NATO Jet?

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:30 | 2552665 Bob
Bob's picture

Where have we seen this script before?

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:36 | 2552677 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

It would make for a shorter list if you asked the opposite of that question...

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:40 | 2552686 greensnacks
greensnacks's picture

You mean the script where N. Korea torpedoed a S. Korean ship, killing 46 and the only thing done was, well, nothing?

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:14 | 2552779 lesterbegood
lesterbegood's picture

And used German torpedos as well.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:27 | 2552794 el Gallinazo
el Gallinazo's picture

That wasn't a false flag but a real attack that caught the S Koreans and US off guard.  They hadn't scripted out a response months or years in advance or laid the domestic psy-ops groundwork with the MSM.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 20:16 | 2552864 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

exactly - just like that guy who flew his plane into the IRS building...  nothing to see here folks..  wait for the show

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 05:08 | 2553281 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

A Cessna type plane with about 50 gal of fuel totally trashed that building.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 12:34 | 2553792 Tunga
Tunga's picture

FBI building. Not IRS. And the only death in the building was never named. 

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:35 | 2552675 Conman
Conman's picture

Lol. I love that statement.

 

Kind of like, i shot some guy that came onto my property with a ladder and tools. Turned out to be a cable installer.

 

 

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:40 | 2552687 ThirdWorldDude
ThirdWorldDude's picture

Turkey admitted the plane was on a reconnaissance mission, so no, the guy you've shot was your power company's meters reader.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:43 | 2552696 Conman
Conman's picture

lesson we all learned is to shoot first. ask later. unless of course if your victim is wearign a hoodie.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:20 | 2552783 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"unless of course if your victim is wearign a hoodie"...and slams the back of your head into the sidewalk and punches you repeatedly in the face.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 20:46 | 2552898 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

"unless of course if your victim is wearign a hoodie"...and slams the back of your head into the sidewalk and punches you repeatedly in the face.

 

Like I've told you before the white Republican authors of the Stand Your Ground Law side with Martin and support his right to defend himself against Zimmerman's threatening behavior. Zimmerman's only hope is that an activist judge tries to reinterpret the law to support him. Zimmerman is a Democrat social activist after all and you how those people stick together. At least Zimmerman has Alan Dershowitz on his side. Dershowitz helped OJ get off the hook and maybe he can work the same mojo for Georgie Z.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 21:22 | 2552938 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Like I've told you before the white Republican authors of the Stand Your Ground Law side with Martin and support his right to defend himself against Zimmerman's threatening behavior."

Pardon, what does race have to do with this?

As you say, it is an accepted fact, that Stand Your Ground Law is acknowledged as color blind. The law deals with aggression not skin color. Don't start with a straw dog with me.

Zimmerman was not stalking Martin for a kill. What threatening behavior, following him? Calling 911? Hardly the actions of a someone intent on murdering a complete stranger...calling the cops beforehand.

Like I told you, to be charged with manslaughter yes, second degree murder no.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 21:23 | 2552943 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

 

Like I told you, to be charged with manslaughter yes, second degree murder no.

 

I can get behind that. But if you see Martin as a victim then what compells you to be so flip about his death? It's as if you think that a kid practicing his right to self defense against a strange man who chased him with a gun and getting killed in the process is funny.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 22:08 | 2552979 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I've said before (and I didn't junk you, as you already know) and I'll say it again...Zimmerman put himself in a position where he had to defend himself...against Martin.

Martin became the aggressor by attacking Zimmerman for the simple act of following him.

Look, it sucks. A kid died who also overreacted to a stranger. Both families are now grieving over happenstance.

I've already shown you where Zimmerman stood up for a homeless black guy who was suckered punched by some punk white guy which got covered up because his family member was a cop. Zimmerman was the one raising hell about that...not Al Sharpton...and got him put in jail and the family member demoted (if I remember right).

Zimmerman is not a bigot/rascist. He is a cop wannabe who followed too close. That, I hope, is the overriding lesson in this...if you're not sure of a strangers intentions (Martins in this case) back the fuck off.

Unfortunate and travesty doesn't even seem to hardly qualify as words to describe the pain so far (for both families) and the pain still to come...but thats all I can come up with...lets not make it a travesty of justice to go along with it, is my opinion.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 22:22 | 2553003 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

 

Martin became the aggressor by attacking Zimmerman for the simple act of following him.

 

 

The Sanford police have stated that Martin did nothing illegal that night. Representitive Baxley, author of the Stand Your Ground Law, said that Martin had a right to defend himself against Zimmerman. Do you support rule of law or not?

 

BAXLEY: Well, simply because if you carefully read the statute, which most of the critics have not, and read the legislative analysis, there's nothing in this statute that authorizes you to pursue or confront other people. If anything, this law would have protected the victim in this case; it could have.

 

If a stranger followed me in his car, increased his speed when I ran, exited his vehicle to pursue me on foot, refused to identify himself or state his reason for following me and then reached for something in his jacket I'd feel completely justified in defending myself by physical force. So would you.

 

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 22:44 | 2553036 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"The Sanford police have stated that Martin did nothing illegal that night."

Its kinda hard to charge a dead guy with assault & battery...I don't even know what your statement winds up meaning.

Witnesses are saying they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. Period.

As far as Baxleys statement,its true except for one thing. Stand you ground includes deadly force and precludes using the law as an escape hatch for your own aggression. Following someone is not aggression...its just annoying.

At point of contact...Trayvon was the aggressor, as witnesses will testify or be charged with giving false statements.

Done.

Seeya

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 23:00 | 2553050 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

On March 13, 2012, Chris Serino sent a capias request to the state's attorney asking for George Zimmerman to be charged with manslaughter.[172][173] Serino stated in the request that "the encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and waited the arrival of law enforcement or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog (sic) in an effort to dispel each party's concern". "There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter."[174] The state attorney's office initially did not act on the request for an arrest warrant.[173]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-kcstar...

 

Would the police say that Martin had not committed a crime if the evidence showed that he had initiated a violent attack on an innocent man? As Representative Baxley confirmed, Martin attempted to defend himself in a manner protected by the Stand Your Ground Law.

 

At point of contact...Trayvon was the aggressor, as witnesses will testify or be charged with giving false statements.

 

Do you realize what you're saying? You can't seriously believe that if a man chases you with a gun that you have to wait for him to shoot you before you can legally defend yourself.


 


Sat, 06/23/2012 - 07:50 | 2553363 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Would the police say that Martin had not committed a crime if the evidence showed that he had initiated a violent attack on an innocent man?"

Context is everything.

Were the police asked what crime Trayvon had committed in order for Zimmerman to be following him? That is, are you extrapolating an answer onto a different question? Were the police specifically asked if Trayvon committed assault & battery on Zimmerman?

"As Representative Baxley confirmed, Martin attempted to defend himself in a manner protected by the Stand Your Ground Law."

Baxley and you or I were not there.

If he (Baxley) is saying that Zimmerman chased Trayvon down and stopped him...then Baxley is right. Trayvon has the right to defend himself.

So far, what we are finding out is, that is not what happened. From everything out there (and we can't know it all yet) is Zimmerman had broken off "tailing him" and was walking back to his car when Trayvon approached him.

Which is a completely different set of circumstances regarding self defense or stand your ground.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 11:45 | 2553706 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Zimmerman's pursuit of Martin made Martin feel threatened. Any reasonable person would feel threatened if a stranger chased them in a car and then on foot and then refused to identify themselves or state the reason for the pursuit. It was not incumbent on Martin at that point to guess that at the exact moment Zimmerman stumbled upon him that Zimmerman had descide to stop acting in a threatening manner and retreat. Any reasonable person would consider the moment that Zimmerman stumbled upon Martin to be the most threatening moment of the incident in the eyes of the victim who is being pursued.

 

If you are ever chased by an armed assailant and he refuses to state the purpose for his pursuit will you simply assume at that point that the incident is over even though your pursuer is now directly in front of you and reaching for something in his jacket? Must all victims become mind readers before they decide that they will apply their lawful right to self defense? Of course not. As Baxley said, that's why he wrote the Stand Your Ground Law. Despite your self delusion Baxley has a much clearer concept of the intent and letter of the law he wrote than you do.

 

2011 Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE[22]

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
Sat, 06/23/2012 - 12:23 | 2553783 nmewn
nmewn's picture

There are so many red herrings in your statement its almost impossible to catch them all...lol.

Chased?...as in running after? At what point did Trayvon ask Zimmerman what his deal was and know he was being "chased" by someone armed? When did that happen? If someone is "chasing me" and I know he's armed and I'm not...I maintain a fix on his location so I can avoid him...I don't lose sight of where he is.

If I do, I go to ground to avoid being caught and shot.

Stumbled on? Now they stumbled over each other in the middle of the street and/or sidewalk? What???...did they back into each other like in some sort of comedy scene?

Jeez Crockett...you and I both suspect what really happened here, that is, Zimmerman broke off following him because he lost sight of him and was going back to his vehicle. Trayvon was hiding from him and stepped out and confronted him as to why he was following him.

Its not self defense for Trayvon now as he is in Zimmermans face (now the antagnonist) when he could have stayed hidden and walked away. And Trayvon never once felt threatened enough to call 911 on his cell phone.

We'll agree to disagree on what self defense is I suppose...but it is not Zimmerman when he's trailing Trayvon and it is not Trayvon when he's confronting Zimmerman for following him earlier after he stopped following him.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 12:53 | 2553816 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Its not self defense for Trayvon now as he is in Zimmermans face (now the antagnonist) when he could have stayed hidden and walked away

 

The Stand Your Ground Law says that Martin didn't have to run away at that point. The law's author, Rep. Baxley, said so. They called it "Stand Your Ground" for a reason, you know.

 

he's trailing Trayvon and it is not Trayvon when he's confronting Zimmerman for following him earlier after he stopped following him.

 

Please explain how Martin could have defended himself against Zimmerman as was his right if he did not "confront" him. Would you have suggested that Martin defend himself by blowing kisses at Zimmerman? Get real.

I suppose that we can agree to disagree but will you be true to your position? If you are chased by car and then on foot and your assailant offers no explanation of his intent and then reaches for something in his jacket do you solemnly swear that you will just stand there and take what's coming?

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 14:35 | 2554146 nmewn
nmewn's picture

There is a difference between confronting and assualting...you know what I meant.

Its as simple as this.

Trayvon was perfectly within his rights to stop and "confront" the one following him. But not attack him. Zimmerman was perfectly within his rights to follow him but not attack him. By all accounts, Zimmerman lost sight of him and was heading back to his car...he was no longer following, stalking, "chasing", trailing, "stumbling" or "driving after" Trayvon.

He was then in a passive stance, meaning being non-aggressive. You can't be aggressive toward someone when you don't know where they are.

If what is reported is true, for Trayvon to then come towards Zimmerman >>>flips the self defense posture around<<< Trayvon is now the aggressor.

Trayvon does not get to maintain self defense under any law once he walks up to Zimmerman and punches him for following him. It would be different if Zimmerman pulled out his gun and fired a shot at him as he (Trayvon) would still be acting in self defense to neutralize the threat to himself or others...the errant shot, fearing another shot

But the "threat" (Zimmerman) was now over...at least as far as what we know now.

No one can use Stand Your Ground for offensive or criminal purpose...its defense only...and assualt & battery is a crime. And that is precisely what Zimmerman (the only witness to know the real start of the "confrontation") is saying...the only other witness we know of is Trayvon and he's dead. Unless someone else comes forward to dispute what he says thats it, done. I'll remind you another witness has Trayvon on top of Zimmerman beating the shit out of him and Trayvon was shot at point blank range which forensically validates that witness.

Those are the cold hard facts.

Its manslaughter tops...Zimmerman (if there is any justice at all and these facts hold) walks on second degree.

The charge should have been manslaughter from the start for Zimmerman putting himself in a situation where he had to use self defense to extricate himself from trouble There was nothing pre-meditated about it that any reports I have seen shows.

And its not fair to ask what I would have done...we both know, more than likely I'd be looking at a battery or manslaughter charge if caught and it still wouldn't make it anymore justifiable because I did it ;-)

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 17:44 | 2554584 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

What was the clear and defining moment that would be apparent to Martin (who had been chased in a car and then on foot) that Zimmerman was retreating? Martin asked Zimmerman, "Do you have a problem." Zimmerman said "No" and reached for something in his jacket. Neither of those actions would lead Martin to believe that Zimmerman had suddenly chosen to back off.

If Zimmerman had actually wanted to back off he could have told Martin why he was following him and that the police were already on the way. Zimmerman claims he was walking away but nothing that he reports having done would cause Martin to believe that the incident had ended.

It's also apparent that Zimmerman wanted to find Martin but lost track of him. He may have decided to return to his vehicle but by stumbling upon Martin he inadvertently caught up with Martin which was his goal all along. There is no logical reason to believe that just when Zimmerman had finally caught up to Martin that he suddenly decided that he didn't want to chase him any more. It makes no sense.

 

And its not fair to ask what I would have done...we both know, more than likely I'd be looking at a battery or manslaughter charge if caught and it still wouldn't make it anymore justifiable because I did it ;-)

 

You would have the support of the Stand Your Law Ground just as Baxley said Martin had.

 

And that is precisely what Zimmerman (the only witness to know the real start of the "confrontation") is saying...the only other witness we know of is Trayvon and he's dead. Unless someone else comes forward to dispute what he says thats it, done

 

It's Zimmerman's own account that is most damning. You'll see.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 20:01 | 2554802 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"What was the clear and defining moment that would be apparent to Martin (who had been chased in a car and then on foot) that Zimmerman was retreating?"

You're doing it again...lol...someone in a car "chasing" someone on foot down the street is going to be a very short "chase". Now you've got Trayvon running?...this heightens suspicion not lessens it. I don't recall him running.

He was following him, not chasing.

And again, as I've said before, when 911 police dispatch told Zimmerman "you don't have to do that"...meaning Zimmerman following Tray...that is when Zimmerman should have broke off following him...and we really don't know the exact timeline as he very well may have done just that, at that point...I don't know, I don't know that anyone else does either.

"Martin asked Zimmerman, "Do you have a problem." Zimmerman said "No" and reached for something in his jacket. Neither of those actions would lead Martin to believe that Zimmerman had suddenly chosen to back off."

Now Crockett, the full exchange was:

Martin: "Do you have a problem."

Zimmerman: "No."

Martin: "Well you do now."

That is the essence of what I'm saying here about self defense. It (self defense) flipped from Tray to Zimmerman right then when Tray became the aggressor.

Sorry, I think you're wrong even though we both agree Stand Your Ground is a good law. I enjoyed the back & forth Crockett but there was no intent to kill anyone going into it (by either party), so no second degree murder.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 21:38 | 2554941 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

You're doing it again...lol...someone in a car "chasing" someone on foot down the street is going to be a very short "chase". Now you've got Trayvon running?...this heightens suspicion not lessens it. I don't recall him running.

He was following him, not chasing.

 

If by "doing it again" you mean accurately relaying facts then, yeah, I'm doing it again. As I said, look to Zimmerman's own words for the most damning evidence against him. Here's Zimmerman on the 911 tape describing how he chased Martin who then began to run away from his pursuer:

 

911 dispatcher:

We’ve got him on the wire. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.

Zimmerman:

OK.

These assholes. They always get away.

When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse. [1:39]

911 dispatcher:

OK, so it’s on the left hand side of the clubhouse?

Zimmerman:

Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left.

He’s running. [2:08]

911 dispatcher:

He’s running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman:

Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]

911 dispatcher:

OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards?

Zimmerman:

The back entrance.

 

911 dispatcher:

Are you following him? [2:24]

Zimmerman:

Yeah. [2:25]

911 dispatcher:

OK.

We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]

Zimmerman:

OK. [2:28]

911 dispatcher:

Alright, sir, what is your name? [2:34]

Zimmerman:

George. He ran.

911 dispatcher:

Alright, George, what’s your last name?

Zimmerman:

Zimmerman.

911 dispatcher:

What’s the phone number you’re calling from?

Zimmerman:

407-435-2400

911 dispatcher:

Alright, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?

Zimmerman:

Yeah.

911 dispatcher:

Alright, where are you going to meet with them at?

Zimmerman:

Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3:10]

911 dispatcher:

Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]

Zimmerman:

Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]

911 dispatcher:

OK, do you live in the area?

Zimmerman:

Yeah, yeah, I live here.

911 dispatcher:

OK, what’s your apartment number?

Zimmerman:

It’s a home. It’s 1950 – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40]

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/george-zimmerman-s-911-call-transcribed

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 08:14 | 2555369 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I would plus one you...but its italicized.

So, he was running afterall, towards the rear entrance that I will assume has a security gate...so he in fact, got away...Zimmerman was parked, no longer following.

So Tray came back or out of hiding.

Didn't he?

And Tray had a cell phone, he didn't call 911 and report some idiot "chasing" him "with a gun", in a truck and on foot while he (Tray) was doing nothing wrong and have the dispatcher say, "Oh, you're the guy. Stay where you're at and we'll have an officer meet you both. You're being "chased" by a neighborhood watch guy young man."

Probably much to everyones relief.

But no, he chose to go back and confront Zimmerman...mano a mano...after getting away. He loses self defense status at that point.

>>>Thats what I've been saying. He lost self defense status right there.<<<

He could have turned and stopped when he first noticed Zimmerman following him...(when talking to his girlfriend on his cell phone) that is Stand Your Ground, armed or unarmed doesn't matter. Its the right of all free men everywhere.

SYG simply codified it.

One of the principles of Stand Your Ground is you are not compelled by law to retreat first...then after that (and only after that) can you legally use force (lethal or not) to stop aggression...thats been done away with.

Innocent people were getting thrown in jail for not running/retreating/fleeing first...just simply shooting a home invader who breaks down their door or car jacker or mugger as it should be...instead of running first.

That is the essence of SYG...not going back after fleeing and getting away and punching someone in the face because you got mad that they were following you.

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 14:37 | 2556009 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

 

So, he was running afterall, towards the rear entrance that I will assume has a security gate...so he in fact, got away...Zimmerman was parked, no longer following.

So Tray came back or out of hiding.

Didn't he?

 

No. He was trying to get back to his host's home which was inside the community. It just happened to be in the same direction as the gate. He did not get away. He was unfamiliar with the neighborhood and in tried to take cover in darkness. Then Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and approached the spot where Martin was hiding on foot.

 

But no, he chose to go back and confront Zimmerman...mano a mano...after getting away. He loses self defense status at that point.

 

He didn't "go back." He never got to his destination. He was hiding in the darkness. Martin did not chose to fight until Zimmerman approached him and refused to state why he was chasing Martin. Having been backed into a corner and approached by the stranger who had just chased him down the street and having gotten no reasonable explaination for the pursuit he fought back just as you or I would and as the Stand Your Ground Law allows.

At no point did Martin pursue Zimmerman. No one has ever said such a thing. Zimmerman said that Martin approached him from behind but that was simply a result of Zimmerman having chased Martin into a dark corner and then entering that darkened area himself.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 22:28 | 2553015 ExpendableOne
ExpendableOne's picture

Zimmerman had every oportunity to be somewhere else.  He chose to be "the hero" and wound up in a very tough situation with Mr. Martin administering at least one case of "acute falling down spells".  I see it as a case of two idiots occupying the same place in space and time.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 23:03 | 2553029 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Individuals have a right to defend themselves against the threatening actions of others. Confronting an armed stranger who is chasing you with anything less than overwhelming force would be stupid. If anything Martin should have been more aggressive in taking Zimmerman down. How many times have we heard that if you need to draw a gun to defend yourself you should shoot at the assailant's center mass in order to kill and end the threat. If that's true then it's also true that when one is forced to use one's hands to defend oneself one should use all the force at one's disposal.

Or are we  going to waive our right to self defense just so Zimmerman can escape the consequences of his actions?

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 10:02 | 2553364 Bob
Bob's picture

Gotta love the sophistry of legalistic argument.  What makes this case so interesting, imo, is the way the racial element seems to inflame the passions of those who typically stand for old time masculinity to leap to the defense of a bully packing a hidden gun. 

Most of us as men understand in our bones and souls that if some bastard is following us around at night practically stepping on our heels and demanding that we justify ourselves in some manner that satisfies him, he's looking for and well-deserving of a serious ass whipping if he doesn't get off our ass. Unless he's a cop (whether he deserves it or not.)

Zimmerman was that crazy bitch with a gun.  He brought it on himself and if we just set aside the racial politics, most of us know damn well he had an ass kicking coming.  He pushed that situation in a manner that gave him a pansie bitch bully's excuse to kill the guy. 

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 11:50 | 2553719 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

The strangest part is that those who are most likely to state general approval for self defense believe that Martin had no right to self defense even though the police say he committed no crime and it is clear that Zimmerman acted in a threatening manner toward Martin. For some reason (and they say it's not racism so perhaps they will be kind enough to give us the real explanation) these folks act as if they care more about vilifying Martin than in supporting the right to self defense.

Why would self defense advocates refuse to recognize the right to self defense in this case when even the authors of the law have publicly stated that Martin acted legally and Zimmerman did not?

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 14:05 | 2553865 Bob
Bob's picture

Not necessarily racism (though there is no dispute where every racist stands on this issue.)  There's a lot of more legitimate resentment about race relations out there that people seem so thrilled to express in this "racialized" situation that it derails their more fundamental values, imo  It's what makes us such suckers for the ole divide-and-conquer game.

Why did OathKeepers or the "Liberty Movement" not take a stand in support of OWS against nationwide police brutality?  Cuz the victims were damn hippy communists, of course.  

People are cheaply self-justifying far more often than they're true to their "values," far as I can tell.  Most folks just can't resist a good hate-down.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 03:10 | 2553240 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

put himself in a position where he had to defend himself...against Martin.

______________________________

That is how bullies explain themselves. Bullies can not be aggressors. And US citizens are bullies through their eternal US citizen nature.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 07:26 | 2553343 Poor Grogman
Poor Grogman's picture

Tibetan Citizen bullying is not included in thought process of chinese muddled thinking.

 

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 07:36 | 2553350 nmewn
nmewn's picture

AnAnus, the pot stirrer, blobs up and says...

"That is how bullies explain themselves."

A bully doesn't say Hey teacher watch this!!!... and punch somebody. They want an audience but not an audience with any authority to stop or punish them for their actions...which would be the opposite of Zimmerman calling 911.

The only "bullies" in this entire thing are the race baiters...and I'm perfectly comfortable in naming them for you:

Obama...saying (once again before any facts are known) if he had a son, the son would look like Trayvon. That is not something someone (especially a "president") says who is looking for answers or justice. Its incendiary rhetoric from a complete narcissist who tries to make everything about him. And to this very day he has said not one word of the hundreds of "son's who would look like him" being shot dead on the streets of Chicago.

The "New" Black Panthers...for breaking laws (and not being charged) for issuing "Wanted Dead or Alive" posters on Zimmerman. There are at least two laws on the books that they broke by doing that. Inciting riot and solicitation to commit a crime.

Spike Lee...for tweeting an address out to the world (after the Black Panthers bounty offer) of what he thought was Zimmermans. It wasn't. It was some unrelated elderly couples address who wound up having to move into a motel fearing for their lives.

Al Sharpton...who flits from one percieved "race crime" to the next like a fly seeking fresh blood.

NBC news,in toto...who doctored the 911 audio to make it appear Zimmerman was a bigot and/or racist as the sole reason he noticed Trayvon in the first place.

Assorted neo-nazi skinheads...who like most of the above, will do anything in their power to inflame passions instead of calm them for obvious reasons. They want to see more people hurt.

Now crawl back under your rock US citizenism bigot.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 08:13 | 2553379 Bob
Bob's picture

Pot-kettle. 

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 08:21 | 2553383 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Its much easier to throw down a banality than to rebut isn't it? ;-)

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 08:36 | 2553392 Bob
Bob's picture

I could throw down a thousand words of transcendental brilliance and you still wouldn't see it, nmewn. 

But then you don't see what's wrong with stirring racial pots at every turn when it's the other guys on the receiving end.  Of course, then it's for the greater good, i.e., the republican party.

Whatever.  [Insert your own banalities.] 

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 09:18 | 2553427 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"But then you don't see what's wrong with stirring racial pots at every turn when it's the other guys on the receiving end."

You're going to have to defend that Bob.

Where have I ever said (here or anywhere) anything racially divisive? By pointing out the truth I'm stirring racial pots?

Really?

You'd like it much better if I just shut up and didn't point out uncomfortable facts (to you) wouldn't you?

Its not I who runs around trying to pit black against white, young against old, straight against gay, man against woman. That would be those like you.

I can rightly be accused (and freely admit) to pointing out the scourge of statist nanny types feeding on the populace as a whole.

For that I stand guilty as charged.

Defend your statement about me or retract.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 10:05 | 2553472 Bob
Bob's picture

The statist nanny types who are especially offensive to you, you've said in the past, are the "welfare queens" who are the favored pets of the "food stamp president." Those are stereotypes with a color that never really needs to be named.  We had an exchange about that. 

Also offensive to you is the kenyan first family's trips to Hawaii (apparently much, much different than first family trips to Camp David or presidential ranches in TX)  and the first kenyan's time on the golf course.  These remarks play on the racial element conveniently without having to explicitly mention the racial component.  We had an exchange about that as well.

Sorry, I don't bookmark this stuff. But you were there. 

But "stirring the racial pot at every turn" is clearly an outrageous exageration.  My sincere apology for that. 

I don't even mean to imply that you are motivated by racisss intent.  I have no idea how you really feel about darker people, but I do know you're a self-acknowledged advocate for the republican party.  I see the racial allusions as political opportunism, fwiw. 

Sorry if you've been wronged there as well.  I'll watch us both more carefully in the future. 

It would sure help me out if you would just once be on the "wrong" side of an issue with racial implications the way Crockett Almanac is on this one.  

Fuck Obama 2012, btw. 

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 10:40 | 2553562 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Thank you.

When I say "welfare queen" there is no intended racial component as most everyone knows the majority on welfare are "white". When I say "food stamp president" its a slap at any presidents ineffectual policies (Carter recieved my same derision as did Bush for creating Pills for Seniors) and an unabashed attempt to reattach the social stigma for accepting handouts in perpetuity...as a way of life instead of a one time deal.

I have also made it abundantly clear I am a fiscal conservative, with libertarian tendencies and still support the TP in spite of all the venom hurled at it/us. The TP is having a hand in steadily throwing out of office republicans (Lugar being the latest) so I don't know where the statement "but I do know you're a self-acknowledged advocate for the republican party" comes from.

It should be pointed out Lugar lived in a hotel when he returned home from DC and charged it to the taxpayer. He was a foreigner (for all practical purposes) to the people he was supposed to serve. 

I also supported Allen West who is still quite black (last I checked...lol) and an honorable man. And Cain until he made (what I percieved as) his allegiance to the Fed known...so no, race isn't the first thing I think about. 

I appreciate your honesty in openly stating your leanings and past preferences as well.

All you have to do is ask me...I hide nothing outside of my identity and location.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 13:29 | 2553936 Bob
Bob's picture

C'mon, I know you're Billy John in the trailer raaaght next door to me!  ;-)

But, okay, I'll shake on that. 

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 14:39 | 2554164 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Fair enough Billy Bob ;-)

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 09:39 | 2553444 Cortez the Killer
Cortez the Killer's picture

Martin is dead for one simple reason:

He went for the beat down. Like he was taught to do by his beloved rappers.

Hed still be alive if after decking Zim he took off.

But he had to go for the beatdown on whitey

Too Black, too strong, too dead.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 12:03 | 2553736 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

One reason? So Zimmerman's use of a firearm while engaged in pretend police activities was not a factor?

Oh, I see. The one factor you cite has to do with rappers. Now what are we supposed to infer from that? Keep on saying that individuals do not have a right to defend themselves just so you can laugh at the dead black kid. Sell your birth right for a bad joke. I'm sure you'll do well with priorities like that.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 13:13 | 2553889 Cortez the Killer
Cortez the Killer's picture

Life is about choices.

Trayvon made his last bad one when instead of splitting when he was out of danger he chose to go for the kill.

No sympathy whatsoever.

And if I was paying that 2 bit security company Id demand my money back. You’re calling off a security guard who is following a stranger in the community wearing a hoodie at night?

The problem with fucktards like you and all the PC police is you think people shouldn’t be able to use common sense. Zim obviously got bad vibes on the kid; and he was right. Kid had a history of violence and was cited for possessing stolen property. People pick up on these cues. You want to wear a hoodie at night? Do it in your own community. You don’t like private security companies, tough shit. The people in this community want it.

 

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 14:18 | 2554024 Bob
Bob's picture

Trayvon sure as hell wouldn't look like my son if I had one, but if I had a son I wouldn't be training him to shrink down from a belligerent prick like Zimmerman in that situation. 

Unfortunately, if Zimmerman gets off on this, I'd have to teach my black son that if this happens to you, you drop the SOB cold and if he moves an arm you break it with a nice, loud "snap."  Any more movement and his health has to go south from there.

Maybe it's a good thing I don't have a son . . . I'd have my sons parading through that "community" all night long, with hoodies up, just to make a point: Fuck what they want . . . what they want is not a free country. 

Perhaps it's a good thing for this matter to be settled in a way that makes sense as social policy.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 14:59 | 2554231 Cortez the Killer
Cortez the Killer's picture

"but if I had a son I wouldn't be training him to shrink down from a belligerent prick like Zimmerman in that situation. "

then your son would be dead too.

cant fix black.

 

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 15:58 | 2554386 Bob
Bob's picture

Funny we come full circle to that.  My son wouldn't be black and he wouldn't have any explaining to do in this situation, start to finish. 

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 18:03 | 2554620 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

And if I was paying that 2 bit security company Id demand my money back. You’re calling off a security guard who is following a stranger in the community wearing a hoodie at night?

 

Zimmerman was not a paid security guard. You're not well informed about this case are you?


The problem with fucktards like you and all the PC police is you think people shouldn’t be able to use common sense. Zim obviously got bad vibes on the kid; and he was right.

 

The Sanford police said that there was no evidence that Martin committed any crime that night. You're not well informed about this case are you?

 

Kid had a history of violence and was cited for possessing stolen property.

 

Martin was suspended from school while Zimmerman was actually arrested for assault against a police officer and had a pfa issued for an incident which occurred when he went to his girlfriend's home and assaulted her. You're not well informed about this case are you?

 

You want to wear a hoodie at night? Do it in your own community.

 

Martin was the house guest of a resident in the community. It is generally not against the law to stay with friends and walk down to the 7-11. You're not well informed about this case are you?

 

You don’t like private security companies, tough shit. The people in this community want it.

 

I believe that all security should be private. But Zimmerman was not a paid security guard. He was not even a member of an official Neighborhood Watch. He was self appointed. You're not well informed about this case are you? 

 

 

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 22:09 | 2552984 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

Bsck in the '70s ( yes that long ago) a bunch of us were sitting around smoking some garbage weed and talking about race ( a major topic at the time) and somebody said something about white people. A black guy in the group said something I've never forgotten. Excuse me, he said, but I've never seen a white person except for an albino or two. All the rest of you are pink.

It's true, fellow white guys. Look at yourself. Are you white. Hell no, we're various shades of pink. Kinda hard to feel superior about being pink, isn't it.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 22:40 | 2553002 10mm
10mm's picture

Ok,blacks are brown,not black.WTF.Barry is what?Hmmm,let me see,im hearing he's black.Gee if i was bi racial,id be saying WTF are you ashamed of.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 22:31 | 2553018 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

I enjoy being in the pink. Pink is cool.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVPpLLpB70Y

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 12:40 | 2553802 Tunga
Tunga's picture

ABC showed the crime scene. No blood. No body.  

Habeas Corpus used to be the law in the USA. Infotainment is the new truth. 

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:21 | 2552785 Matt
Matt's picture

"Turkey admitted the plane was on a reconnaissance mission, so no, the guy you've shot was your power company's meters reader."

If the Meter Reader happened to be carrying 9 tons of firepower for no apparent reason. And the meter is on the front of the house, and the meter reader is in the backyard, at night, without announcing his presence. 

It really all comes down to whose airspace the plane was in along its flight path. Even if it was back inside Turkish airspace, if it was previously in Syrian airspace, then it is provocation.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 20:04 | 2552847 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

RF-4 aircraft are often unarmed.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 21:11 | 2552929 Vlad Tepid
Vlad Tepid's picture

In war, a camera is a dangerous weapon.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 00:05 | 2553124 Matt
Matt's picture

Are those new Russian Radar systems so advanced that you can tell what gear an aircraft is equipped with? Would they be able to tell if the F-4 was armed or not?

I suspect not, but I don't know.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 00:41 | 2553170 prole
prole's picture

It wouldn't matter. Recon mission. Armed or unarmed. Totally meaningless. Some foriegn provocateur military aircraft violates your airspace especially during wartime and boom you shoot it down.

 

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:57 | 2552694 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

the Turkish airforce obviously can't navigate

..must have been trained by the US Airforce!

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:46 | 2552676 marco1324
marco1324's picture

To be fair we need a good war to clear the cobwebs a bit. Anyone who says otherwise has to much money to lose.

 

(edit)..And the comment on oily shorts should be well observed. Interesting that oil was doing just what it maybe shouldnt have been doing and now this action will correct it. Its like it was written to happen.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:00 | 2552739 wisefool
wisefool's picture

I hope you are kidding/snarc. The world has embraced the idea of the USA being the supercop. The elites of these countries WELCOME NATO bombing the crap out of their untouchables, and then the 20 year rebuilding effort funded by the 48% of americans who actually pay federal income taxes.

So many crappy old hovels, that families have lived in for generations, with alodial title, get destroyed. Roads get widened, new palaces get built (with fiber in every room, like the US embasy in Iraq.)

I am one of these guys who "has too much tax money to lose." Along with diminished fortitude to withstand the quantumly entangled death rattles of innocents.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:37 | 2552680 arkel
arkel's picture

I smell a false flag to get the tremors of WWIII started.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:05 | 2552745 el Gallinazo
el Gallinazo's picture

 

This shit couldn't be more obvious.  The elite's plan to topple Assad has stalled.  The al Qaeda led insurgents (they are suddenly our friends again) are not making progress and they either need a nice NATO civilian carpet bombing or NATO "boots on the ground."  There is no way the Russians and Chinese are going to abstain in the Security Council like they did with Libya, so Hilary and the Kenyan are going to have to call this FF an attack on a NATO member, which supercedes in their opinion a UN resolution, and unleash the dogs of war.  Turks sure were budget conscious to sacrifice an F-4.  Be sure to stock up on beer and popcorn while the Syrian civilians are massacred.

 

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:11 | 2552770 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

Need a good diversion from the collapsing world fiat currencies...

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 20:15 | 2552862 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Indeed el Gallinazo! This shit, as you call it, could not be more obvious!

I mean how does a Turkish old wreck of a jet find itself close enough to Syrian airspace to trigger a Syrian AA system to target and shoot it down? One wonders why such an old, basically worthless jet from a NATO armed force is flying close off the Syrian coast at a time when the NATO allied rebels in Syria have failed in their attacks and are basically now hunkered down and resorting to Al Qaueda terrorist bombings as their basic means of attack. As NATO facilitates the transfer of Al Qaueda terrorists from Libya and Saudi Arabia into Syria and seeks ways to slip arms into Syria to arm the NATO allied Sunni populations, we suddenly find NATO aircraft being shot down.

One can rest assured that this Turkish NATO jet was NOT THE FIRST NATO aircraft that has been slipping in and out of Syrian airspace the last few months. It is most likely a daily occurance and Syria just finally decided to pull the trigger. The fact that the Turkish NATO jet had NO countermeasures in play to defend itself makes it likely it was sacrificed to gain the needed incident to trigger a full on NATO assualt.

Of course the key questions are what reaction China and Russia have, will they surrender again to NATO attackers, or will they back their client Syria with real help rather than allow NATO to conquer Syria and make it another NATO base.

This could get ugly should that bitch Clinton shoot her mouth off and get Russia and CHina to decide to confront that bitch for once. Maybe Russia and China are through being surrender monkeys and have decided to stand up and tell NATO to 'fuck off'! If they do, then Clinton and her Kenyan master will have to send American troops to conquer a Syria that has real support behind it. I for one would expect some modern military systems to appear in Syria. Maybe NATO might have to fight against more than just a handful of AK-47s and a few RPGs from the 1960s. There is a big difference between fighting forces with NO modern weapons at all and a force fielding some 2012 Chinese and Russian missile systems.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 20:19 | 2552867 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

so where is that US Enterprise again??  arent they going to sink that next?  Will Shatner declare war?

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 21:09 | 2552927 wisefool
wisefool's picture

They'll probably spot where the USS liberty went down.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 21:31 | 2552955 world_debt_slave
world_debt_slave's picture

I'm happy somone remembers the USS Liberty

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/liberty_attack_scheme.html

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 22:17 | 2552993 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

I am a Navy veteran and I remember the Liberty. Though this was way before my time. Still, the criminals were let off of the hook and the sailors who did such great service to their navy and their country were forgotten. As anyone making Isreal and it's American supporters uncomfortable will be forgotten by a media that serves it's masters well.

Read that however you like.  We should have launched a Carrier Air strike on Israel's air fields and naval bases. But we didn't. Any other nation attacks us and we would have launched a strike. Israel attacks us and we apologize and run away. Don't want to offend our masters!

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 22:32 | 2553019 world_debt_slave
world_debt_slave's picture

Thank you for your service, yeah, I was in the US Navy during the Reagan era, the 600 ship navy, awesome to see those battle wagons on the high seas. I was a snipe, down in the hole.

Peace brother!

 

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 20:20 | 2552869 PhattyBuoy
PhattyBuoy's picture

Pretty sure Putin just said FU !

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 20:42 | 2552891 hyperbole2000
hyperbole2000's picture

I suspect British, French, and US Tomohawk inventories have been restocked and are up to the challenge. Just think of how the accounts receiveable can be posted as collateral for new loans to be leveraged to save the financial system.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 22:43 | 2553035 ExpendableOne
ExpendableOne's picture

F4's are routinely turned into drones.  We've done that since the mid 60's.  This one could have been a "target".

 

Also, where will NATO get the bombs to drop on Syria?  Didn't they use most of thier stock on Libya?  Certainly seems like a fine shit stew...

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:06 | 2552753 resurger
resurger's picture

 its a matter of preference, The Jordanians like a Syrian MIG, the Syrians were expecting something equal or better from Turkey...

Shit, that sure failed...

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:37 | 2552681 drink or die
drink or die's picture

cash for clunkers?

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 21:27 | 2552949 world_debt_slave
world_debt_slave's picture

ha ha, reminded me of this clunker commerical

 WANT YOUR CLUNK - THE CASH FOR CLUNKERS EXTRAVAGANZA!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LcYZxGdY8U

Uncle Sugar has a deal for you!

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:38 | 2552682 Squid Vicious
Squid Vicious's picture

Causus Belli, bitchez... NATO vs. Axis of Evil...

PS - remind me again how Turkey is part of NATO? was that one of W's stupendous foreign policy accomplishments?

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:43 | 2552690 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Greece and Turkey also joined the alliance in 1952,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nato

 

Remember the M*A*S*H episode with the crazy, injured Turk who just wanted to kill "Chinlee?"

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:44 | 2552700 Squid Vicious
Squid Vicious's picture

Wow... thanks

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:46 | 2552701 Squid Vicious
Squid Vicious's picture

forgot to add sarc/on above ...in case it wasn't clear to the junkers

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 21:24 | 2552945 i-dog
i-dog's picture

You got junked for your confusion in the first line.

It should read: Syria v. Axis of Evil

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 21:01 | 2552911 hyperbole2000
hyperbole2000's picture

Turkey's military is second only to the US in the size of standing forces dedicated to NATO.  They can take care of themselves with respect to Syria. NATO is just the icing on the cake or the insurance if things escalate. Free Syria forces sweeping in from the northwest will squeeze the Assad forces up against the coast and the Russian naval bases.  Cessation of hostilities wiil not occur without Russian involvement at the truce/capitulation table.

Things will get interesting for Hezbollah and those who live under their boot in Lebanon.  Remember what happened to the PLO in Lebanon when the Amal allied themselves initally with Isreal after years of being under the PLA's boot.

Kill the boot.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 00:04 | 2553115 meizu
meizu's picture

If Assad falls, a Kurdish Republic will born, and Turkey will face a kurdish/PKK insurgency that will tear Turkey apart.  Turkey is playing with fire.  Only 3 days ago "8 Turkish soldiers killed in PKK battle ", Turkish jets are bombing kurdish rebel positions in Iraq, Assad is making SYria a safe heaven for PKK rebels fighting against Turkey.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 11:28 | 2553665 dpr10
dpr10's picture

There is no need for pkk terrorists to tear turkey apart. Turkey is being run by USA clowns for the last ten years that are also fundamentalists and stand against eveything that Ataturk has established in his lifetime. these a... would do anything that their masters would tell them to do but like most religious parties, they are cowards and they are all bs talk not people of action...the army is all that we have and we would be history in this region without them...it would be a disasterous mistake for us to get involved in any military action against syria or iran..or get involved in any hideous usa plan in the region..usa is just trying to muddy the waters and trying to hide the fact that it is bankrupt from the usa general public that is not too smart to begin with:)the same idiots form the majority here in Turkey as well, that is why useless scum get elected in the first place... 

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 21:51 | 2552965 my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

Spare us the "axis of evil" tripe....that is sooo 1980's!!!

The whole world is the "axis of evil" according to NATO....except Israel, of course.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:42 | 2552691 magpie
magpie's picture

War will be cancelled if it makes the Hawaian Monarch lose votes.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:07 | 2552757 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I'm sure you meant to say Kenyan monarch. I can certainly understand the confusion.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:08 | 2552762 magpie
magpie's picture

The technical term for it is "Personal Union". 

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:22 | 2552786 magpie
magpie's picture

Hey Junker, open a history book or buy a history app shits someday. 

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 22:07 | 2552976 magpie
magpie's picture

Jaws of Fate

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:42 | 2552692 TJ00
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:42 | 2552693 joemayo
joemayo's picture

The creme de la creme of the chess world in a

Show with everything but Yul Brynner

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:44 | 2552695 Doode
Doode's picture

Could they whole broohaha with Syria be about that naval base? Qadaffi was gone right after he kicked out Euro oil companies and gave the oil fields to the Chinese and the Russians. Assad agreed to boost the size of the base and that could be a real problem in the future for the US given a more aggressive Russia under Putin. It also helps to dimantle Syria right before invading Iran.

Many false flags at play so it is possible that the future of the Russian naval base is the key reason for removing Assad now when the base has not grown yet.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:53 | 2552723 ThirdWorldDude
ThirdWorldDude's picture

Russia has held it's Tartus base operational for 40 years  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartus#Russian_naval_base

Syria is about Iran, Libya was about gold, oil and water.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:58 | 2552734 Doode
Doode's picture

It was meaningless under the Soviet Union since Soviets had many other bases and a large fleet - no so under Russia. I think if Putin was not the president it would be ok, but under him the base could become a major force projection point in the region within the next 10 or so years and change the dynamics of the Middle East power game.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:43 | 2552697 tony wilson
tony wilson's picture

  an iranian mig 29 is tracked flying near the white cliffs of dover having traversed along the british coast for 40km.

a north korean mig 15  was tracked flying along the coast from boston to Hyannis, Barnstable, MA, USA

what would the brits and the yanks do ?

 


Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:49 | 2552716 NetDamage
NetDamage's picture

Invite the pilot in for tea and biscuits?

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:02 | 2552742 wisefool
wisefool's picture

Grant them citizenship by executive order?

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:05 | 2552746 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

the Brits would blow the fighters up with a single missile each and claim the "explosive noise" heard off the coast was a Navy training exercise

the Yanks would blow the fighters into the outer atmosphere with a nuclear tipped Sidewinder and any fragments of aircraft (or pilot) left larger than an inch in diameter they'd waterboard in Gitmo!

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:31 | 2552798 Matt
Matt's picture

Really? You don't think they would just send out a couple fighters to escort the other plane out of their airspace? Like they have done several times recently?

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 23:19 | 2553059 tony wilson
tony wilson's picture

what if a turkish guy is contantly coming into your garden making lots of noise day and night causing you problems.

he is always really nice to your face but you know the fat fuck is scheming.you understand his duplicity and remember what happened to the  armenian and the kurdish people.

sometimes you get a feeling he has been inside your home but are not sure because you are not geting much sleep and are worried.

you later find out his american friend  controllers have had all your credit lines nulled and bank accounts frozen all your foreign assets have been stolen.

you cannot work,you cannot sell anything you are an ex person and seen as a mad dog in some circles.

you then find out this guy is paying local holigans to smash your windows shit on your doorstep and plant bombs in your herb garden.

 someone shot your cat and blew up your favorite garden gnome.

if you came home one day tired and found that fat turkish  cia asset  on your bed eating your food watching tv.

a warm steaming turkish turd on your deep pile cream carpet.

are you gonna escort him out or smash the fucker into pieces and give him to a kurdish friend of yours to finish him off : )

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 00:03 | 2553118 Matt
Matt's picture

I was replying to what the Brits or Americans would do; the most recent events I can think of are Russian patrols entering into Japanese, Alaskan and Hawaiian airspace, and each of those times, they were escorted out, not fired upon. Perhaps both sides possesing a nuclear arsenal is what keeps the peace. Maybe Nuclear Deterence works, and non-proliferation is a scam to leave smaller nations unable to defend themselves.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 20:49 | 2552900 knukles
knukles's picture

Have the Fed and BoE engage in another round of QE.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:47 | 2552708 Animal Cracker
Animal Cracker's picture

I always knew WW3 would begin with a Turkey Shoot.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:08 | 2552755 John Law Lives
John Law Lives's picture

Alvin York also had a Turkey Shoot...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCCpRfB5aUU

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:48 | 2552711 nicxios
nicxios's picture

Turkish planes for years have been trying to provocate Greece. Bunch of dirty assholes, one day the Russians will drive them back where they came from.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:56 | 2552728 magpie
magpie's picture

There might still be people around who remember Smyrna...

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 20:10 | 2552857 Hohum
Hohum's picture

Where's that?

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 20:50 | 2552902 knukles
knukles's picture

Alabama?

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 21:26 | 2552947 nmewn
nmewn's picture

lol...South Carolina...a suburb of Anatolia ;-)

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 09:17 | 2553425 knukles
knukles's picture

Waaaaait, nmewn....
OMG
Anatolia is next to Spain.
Whateevvvver

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:49 | 2552712 marco1324
marco1324's picture

We would send planes up and ask why the pilots wanted to defect.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:57 | 2552731 johny2
johny2's picture

The Saudi Arabia is going to supply weapons to rebels to establish democracy in Syria. And USA will provide "intelligence". It will work out just as it did in Afganistan. 

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:26 | 2552790 Savyindallas
Savyindallas's picture

What about Russia? We are thousands of miles away and they are near the border protecting an area of thei vital national interests. Do you really think Putin will sit tight.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:50 | 2552831 johny2
johny2's picture

Russia learnt its lesson in Afganistan, they will not fall for the same trick again. At least I think so.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:58 | 2552735 Olympia
Olympia's picture

 

So, now that some unruly Northern European suggest Greece to sell its islands at a bargain price, they will not like it if that actually happens. They will not like it because selling the islands is not only about selling land where rooms to let will be built. Greek islands have multiple uses and can serve as parameters in various kinds of games. Instead of selling, the Greeks could rent land on the islands. It is the same as with the Chinese Shipping Company Cosco that has an interest in the port of Piraeus and the German construction company Hoch-Tief that has taken over control of the airport in Athens.

 

 http://eamb-ydrohoos.blogspot.com/2012/05/greece-among-salem-witches.html

 

Can anyone imagine the geopolitical implications if we rent part of the island of Kythira to the Russians for a hundred years, for example? To what extent would the balance of power change in Eastern Mediterranean if the Bear set its foot in the Aegean Sea?  To what extent would the balance of power change if the Russian fleet dropped anchor permanently there? To what extent would such a naval base influence the defense of the unruly Northern Europeans? It would be a base that among other things could commit Russia to provide Greece with help in case the Turks challenged the Greek sovereignty in the Aegean Sea and anywhere else there are Greek interests.

So, there is a question posed to those who love accounting. How many hundreds of billions of Euros is a naval base worth in the middle of the Aegean? How many hundreds of billions of Euros do the Europeans make because Greece provides for their defense as well? Who is the deadhead in this case? Is it Greece which provides its aircraft carriers or The Netherlands that chips in a few crates of beer for the common defense? Things are simple. Until now, the Europeans could play it smart by paying a pittance. They know Greeks will protect their interests even if it means dying, so they hide behind these interests to pay a pittance. What will happen, though, if the Greeks decide to follow their example? What will happen if the Greeks decide to pay a pittance and they hide behind the Russian interests, which are anti-European by nature?

 

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:35 | 2552803 jonjon831983
jonjon831983's picture

Yea, I suppose - maximizing success to destabilize Europe would require that the countries to the east of Greece are friendly to Russia to guarantee a land route and for ensured access to the Suez Canal for sea route.  Otherwise if things get tough, the sea route resupply would only be the circuitous northern route via Straights of Gibralter.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 20:53 | 2552905 knukles
knukles's picture

Thank the Lord that somebody besides the Greeks are running the Athens airport.  It has been one of the most fucked up, inefficient, confused clusterfucks of an excuse for decades.... first hand experience, BTW.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 13:57 | 2554012 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Haha.

Give us money or we'll beg from Russia. The world trembles at the military might of a small nation that can't even afford to pick up their trash.

Please don't offend the very few of us that somewhat sympathetic that you got swindled by your politicians and their banker buddies even though you grabbed up the money with both hands for the ouzo party of a decade.

Being crazy and broke is not an improvement over being lazy and broke.

Take comfort that soon the world will be Greece.

One big broke dick Planet. World Unity a reality.

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