This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

Is The Euro Today The Gold Standard Of The 1930s For EU Economies?

Tyler Durden's picture




 

As the IIF continues to believe it is negotiating with Greece on voluntary haircuts and Ireland follows the Greek playbook by threatening referenda and asking for bailout term adjustments, is it any wonder that the words of a supposedly united Europe ring hollow in the ears of investors who seem to expect a Euro breakup sooner rather than later. Deutsche Bank's credit team see two noteworthy similarities between the world today and where it was in the 1930s. First, they view the Euro today as creating the same problems for Europe as the Gold Standard did in the 1930s and secondly, the austerity now is perhaps equivalent to the tightening of fiscal and monetary conditions in the US in 1937.

Is the Euro today the Gold Standard of the 1930s for European Economies?

 

The 1930s in Europe was a slow moving game of falling dominoes with countries one by one leaving the narrow confines of the Gold Standard after chronic growth problems that a fixed currency system intensified. There was a definite trend in the 1930s that saw those countries that left the Gold Standard seeing a much quicker recovery from the Depression than those that stayed on for a number of years into the latter half of the decade. Figure 12 shows a case study of six countries currencies relative to Gold in the 1930s. We’ve rebased them to 100 at the start of the series. In order of leaving the Gold Standard, we had the UK (left September 1931), Sweden (also left September 1931), US (April 1933), Belgium (March 1935), France (September 1936) and Italy (October 1936).

Interestingly, by the middle of 1937 all had devalued by at least 40% to Gold except Belgium who had devalued by around 30% in 1935. France, which held on until September 1936, then saw its currency collapse by nearly 70% in the three years up to WWII. Figure 13 then shows the same six countries nominal (left) and real (right) GDP performance over the same period.

 

 

The UK and Sweden, which left the Gold Standard earliest (September 1931) in this sample, saw a ‘relatively’ mild negative growth shock compared to the other four. In contrast, France which stuck to Gold until late 1936 saw growth notably under-perform until they left the standard. Interestingly as discussed above, France later saw a dramatic 3 year 70% devaluation to Gold which helped restore nominal GDP close to that of the UK and Sweden by the end of the 1930s. However, in real terms they were still the laggard at this point. The worst slump of all was that seen in the US between 1929 and 1932 where they lost nearly half the value of their economy in nominal terms and nearly 30% in real terms. However, the bottom pretty much corresponded to the end of the Dollar’s gold convertibility and subsequent devaluation. From this point on, the recovery was fairly dramatic until the 1937 recession we’ll discuss below. Overall, Figure 13 does indicate some fairly strong evidence that growth did seem to respond to currency debasement and that countries which left this later ended up with weaker economies for longer and also, in France’s case, a more dramatic end devaluation.

 

Obviously this led to a deep recession after the fragile post-Depression recovery and given the current central bankers' tendencies outside of Europe, the inevitable (and so much more easy to achieve now) print-fest solution to the necessary deflation.

 

The differences between now and the 1930s – "We're printing gold"

 

In real terms, we are not too different in many countries to the outcome seen in the Depression. However, the overall price level in the economy has held up much better than it did in the 1930s leaving nominal GDP above its 2007/2008 peak in Austria (106.5 relative to a rebased 100 peak), Belgium (106.4), US (105.3), UK (104.7), Germany (103.7), France (103.3), Finland (102.9) and the Netherlands (101.3). Much of this has been because of QE and other dramatic interventions preventing the collapse of much systemically crucial debt (particularly banks) that would otherwise have defaulted and led to deflation.

 

However, all the peripheral five are below their nominal peak still with Portugal, Italy and Spain just below their peak but with Greece (92.8) and Ireland (82.4) well below. When using Ireland as a positive case study for what others can achieve, it is worth being aware that they have seen a near 20% fall in their economy on a nominal basis. This has allowed them to dramatically improve their competitiveness. Unless others are prepared to make the same hard decisions and can be funded in the meantime, we think they are unlikely to be able to repeat Ireland’s competitive gains.

 

- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:36 | 1975567 catacl1sm
catacl1sm's picture

'Print' away the debt on the backs of savers. Bithchez!!!

 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:40 | 1975592 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Glenn Beck endorses Ron Paul over Newt:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/glenn-beck-i%E2%80%99d-vote-for-a-ron-paul-t...

And if that weren’t enough to get Republicans angry at him, today Beck said that, were Gingrich to get the nomination, he’d consider voting for a Ron Paul third party run, something many assume would give the election to Obama.

 

4 more years of HOPE AND CHANGE!

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:43 | 1975610 junkyardjack
junkyardjack's picture

Remember back when people used to pretend that there were people who cared about what Glen Beck thought? Its nice that's over now

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:57 | 1975631 Barbarous Relic
Barbarous Relic's picture

 "Is The Euro Today The Gold Standard Of The 1930s For EU Economies?"

You can eat euros.  

And wipe your ass with them.

All gold does is store wealth.  

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 18:39 | 1976228 WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

You can burn a fire, use it as wallpaper, stuff pillows, make confettis for new year parties, origami etc... etc...there were many creative uses of fiat in Weimar, some of them quite decorative. That would be an unfair view against fiat to reduce it only to its edible and ass wiping functions, ask international paper, the company recycles cartons to replace coal in cement plants, maybe fiat is a solution to peak oil actually and is good for the planet!

 

 

 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 22:59 | 1977147 smiler03
smiler03's picture

Daft but funny.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:37 | 1975910 tiger7905
tiger7905's picture

Latest from Don Coxe of Europe... and shale gas and gold

 

http://goldandsilverlinings.com/?p=1788

 

 

 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:44 | 1975617 metastar
metastar's picture

If Becky (Mr. FAUX NWO enemy) is endorsing Ron Paul, it calls into question my belief in The Ron.

I have to wonder what Beck us up to.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:05 | 1975693 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Beck-bashers seem to ignore the fact that he got kicked off of Fox. That happened because he never fit into the MSM paradigm.

I never really watched him much but the few times I did, he was always 100% on target.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 18:29 | 1976190 metastar
metastar's picture

Did you ever notice Becky donning his Freemason fashion wear.

http://www.infowars.com/glenn-beck-dons-freemasonic-patch-during-broadcast/

Once a Freemason, always a Freemason!

BTW, I've donated several hundred USD (paper trash, I know) to Ron Paul's campaign. In the grand scheme it's a small contribution, but ask yourself, "what have I done to restore freedom?"

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:54 | 1975651 gina distrusts gov
gina distrusts gov's picture

"4 more years of HOPE AND CHANGE!"

hope for  honest government .... get change->  more crooks and thieves than before,,, O-Bummer

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 23:46 | 1977301 smiler03
smiler03's picture

There is no /sarc for this weeny post. My questions are genuine.

If I'm interested/curious on subjects, I research them "to death".

US Politics to me cannot be fathomed. Your country's politics are so corrupt that for the foreseeable future you may as well be the EU. It's ridiculous. WTF is going on? I know the US has the least credible democracy in the "Western" world but are you so effin stupid as a nation that you cannot stop Mr Obama running for a second term?

I'm obviously a VERY ignorant European as I have no idea at all why there is no Democrat "race" going on. I have no faith that your next election matters at all, to anybody, anywhere. You truly seem to be in a death spiral and until you get out of the spiral that you are in the two party system that has buggered your country will last forever.

I'm British and I support Ron Paul. I admit the UK is fucked too. Not because of bipartisan politics like the US but by the very fragile, volatile extremism of our Labour left and everybody else on the right that can turn the UK tits up in as little as 4 weeks. That's how quickly we can change our Parliament. Rather our way than yours. Oh... and we don't have that Senate/HOR nonsense of yours resulting in stalemate after stalemate, aka the likes of a "Super Committee. And before you think it, our "house of lords" is virtually irrelavant.

Cheers and thanks a lot. xxx

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 08:24 | 1978037 GoldBricker
GoldBricker's picture

Democracy is in decline in both the US and the EU, though the mechanisms are different. How many Europeans got to vote on treaty changes? When they voted no, did the course of EU policy change at all?

In Ireland, Enda Kenny ran on a get-better-debt-terms and won against the disgraced govt that decided to guarantee Ireland's banks' bonds. Once in office, did Kenny do anything about his promise? No, because the electorate is not his boss. If you want to read his bosses' business plan, search for "The Occult Technology of Power" and read the document that you find. All your questions will be answers.

Ironically, strongman Putin did poorly in recent Russian elections. Could it be that Russian elections are less rigged than those in the West?

I will give the UK a +1 for Cameron's veto, however.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:06 | 1975696 jomama
jomama's picture

that's a kiss of death if i ever saw one.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 18:17 | 1976054 Strut
Strut's picture

 

Don't forget about the American's Elect ticket that's sure to split the vote one way or the other. They won't announce the "winner" until after the GOP nomination. Shit-Tons of Wall St. money backing this, and no there isn't a real vote, the nominee will be decided by their board.

 

(edit)

P.S. The AE ticket sure in the hell won't be Ron Paul, even if he looses the GOP ticket.

 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:46 | 1975623 HedgeAccordingly
HedgeAccordingly's picture

Highest dollar prints in the DX in 11 months. http://hedge.ly/s6uV3w

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:58 | 1976057 AAA21
AAA21's picture

There is this terribly misguided idea that the so called "Gold Standard" we had until the 1930's caused the Great Depression.  It is worth remembering that ANY monetary standard is faced with eventual crises when FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING is allowed!   So what if they had a "Gold Standard" - yes, the "Gold Standard" limited the amount of currency that could be printed by the Central Bank, but not the amount of fiduciary media (i.e. CREDIT) that could be "printed" by the Banking System.   What good is a currency supposedly backed by Gold when you allow banks to lend and re-lend that Gold (i.e. money) creating huge mountains of fictitious money.  When push comes to shove (and it eventually always does) we belatedly discover that the money/assets really aren't there, and that is when all hell breaks loose!   CONCLUSION: the 1930's Gold Standard was not a REAL sound money standard!

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 19:13 | 1976418 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Read "The Lords of Finance".... it will help clarify some confusion you are experiencing...

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:36 | 1975572 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

'The differences between now and the 1930s – "We're printing gold"'

The answer is no. You could use the same comparison and use the CHF.

Market dump in progress by the way...

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:42 | 1975605 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

apmex is buying ase for 2. +- over spot....just fyi...

 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:46 | 1975624 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Why you tellin' me? And... who in the hell is selling to them?

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:58 | 1975662 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

"Market dump in progress by the way..."

 

Not for OIL.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:02 | 1975682 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture
'Explosion and fire in oil pipeline near Southern oilfields of Iraq's Basra citing a oil police source'

Via Ransquak.

Maybe that's why.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 18:01 | 1976072 AAA21
AAA21's picture

As I mentioned before - even in the 1930's the Banking System (through the fraudulent practice of Fractional Reserve Banking) was also "printing gold"!   There was not a sound Gold Standard - it was only a little less fraudulent than the system we have today!

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 18:39 | 1976272 Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula's picture

But if we didn't let the fractional reserve banks fraudulently inflate the money supply 50x, then who would we go to to borrow money from?

 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 22:52 | 1977123 knowless
knowless's picture

We have the internet now, it would be much harder to create monopolies, you would crowdsource good ideas to fund a new venture, instead of having to rely directly on the elites for capital, the middle and lower classes could more easily assert their will through what they could/did offer/desire, and in doing so, completely rewrite the definitions of "class".

 

With the advent of instantaneous communication comes many opportunities to dissect and reorchestrate the system which has to this point been oppressive of necessity, but in the future, through the creative application of these innovations, the structure can become the boon of a new humanity.

 

Never underestimate the ingenuity of humanity when allowed the freedom to access and apply knowledge.

 

Capital is created of labor, it should rest in the hands of those who create, and solely to those which it is owed. If we were allowed to exist in a world where a person is respected for their contribution to society, by granting that same person right to choose allocation of their spent body to the pursuits which they deem admirable, then maybe we could come to a time and place where people understand and appreciate morality, not in a religious sense, but instead as an understanding that peace is for all of us to enjoy, and can only be accomplished through our mutual adherence to the understanding that labor is the heart of a healthy community, and no person should hold another as slave through any means.

 

/rant off

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:36 | 1975575 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Irrelevant.  Energy cost/production is the only currancy/commodity that matters moving forward.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:40 | 1975576 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Anything resembling a gold standard is hard
Reality is hard, too... Drugs are...

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:42 | 1975606 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

... the answer?

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:34 | 1975619 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

...

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 18:26 | 1976198 Strut
Strut's picture

for Bitchez!

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 19:22 | 1976442 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

It's the Bachmann Corndog Overdrive!

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:37 | 1975580 SDRII
SDRII's picture

Q FOFOA

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 05:42 | 1977875 fredquimby
fredquimby's picture

My thoughts precicely. #FREEGOLD will save the Euro! Hurrah!!

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:37 | 1975581 CClarity
CClarity's picture

Gold getting tagged today on liquidations and Fed disappointment.   I'm backing up the truck and planning to reload at 1500, even if it sinks to 1350.  Liquidity issues about to come undone in bank stocks, sovs, Eur deposits etc etc etc.  Big boys have to punch what they can - need the cash or cover losses.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:45 | 1975618 Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture

+1

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:52 | 1975641 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

'I'm backing up the truck and planning to reload at 1500, even if it sinks to 1350.'

I'd reload earlier if I was you, you might end up running out. Bottom picking is for monkeys.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:07 | 1975699 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Somewhere in the low 1300s I sold gold.

Interesting if it gets back down there.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:08 | 1975705 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

I wouldn't wait for 1500. I'd be surprised if it got below 1600.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 23:57 | 1977354 smiler03
smiler03's picture

I bought at $1770. Yes it's ETF but I am convinced by ZH that I should buy more.

If my ETF (in my dreams) goes to $2000 I intend to sell, bank the cash and immediately buy the same again, Obviously I'll pay more to get my ETF back but by then I will have secured my my gain, in case I get MF Globaled?

I have a feeling that I'm an idiot. 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:37 | 1975583 Irish66
Irish66's picture

If one more dummy says, we weren't expecting QE, I say BS

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:02 | 1975684 Saxxon
Saxxon's picture

It's not that the market was expecting QE; it's that if the smack stops flowing for even just a session or two, 'withdrawals' begin immediately. 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:38 | 1975589 catacl1sm
catacl1sm's picture

PPT.... to the 'buy-mobile'!

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:44 | 1975615 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Memo received. For a sec there, I was all giddy thinkin' to myself "no biddy"

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:40 | 1975598 junkyardjack
junkyardjack's picture

The big difference between now and the 1930s is that we didn't have the Chinese consumer to fall back on back then.  China will save us all /full retard off

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:42 | 1975603 metastar
metastar's picture

Yes, if you keep robbing slaves of their wealth, they must keep working in order to achieve their dream of freedom.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:42 | 1975607 bugs_
bugs_'s picture

Excellent.  An astute analogy.  The struggle to maintain is very similar.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:42 | 1975609 Vergeltung
Vergeltung's picture

wait, I thought Nixon took the US off the Gold Standard in the 1970s?

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:44 | 1975962 css1971
css1971's picture

What they did before that when they printed too much and people noticed was devalue the currency. It was still linked to gold, only less of it.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:49 | 1975628 vegas
vegas's picture

Yea, we can't have a gold standard because then it's impossible for politicians [and by proxy there elite allies] to cheat and print money for votes. What a gold linked currency would do is institute a solid, credible, economy that couldn't be messed with and that is sustainable over time because it would be trusted. Can't say that about any politico.

We all know how this Euro shit is going to end; everybody knows the endgame. The only thing we are guessing at is the timing.

 

http://vegasxau.blogspot.com

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:54 | 1975647 TheSilverJournal
TheSilverJournal's picture

Those darn constraints on money printing...

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:57 | 1975659 Saxxon
Saxxon's picture

Long DGP at the close.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:02 | 1975681 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Careful.  Who is managing this fund?  It is still paper.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:59 | 1975667 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Beware the awesome power of Biflation. It's what prevents the printfest from happening now with abandon. Because the killer of biflation (modest deflation combined with modest deflation) crushes buying power and margins faster than inflation or deflation alone. And there is currently no known cure. 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:46 | 1975973 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Biflation is a temporary phenomenon...  it may seem like an eternity to some of us, but it will ultimately give way to deflation or inflation proper...  probably hyper at that, but I've been surpised time and time again with this whole mess (I'm not expecting an orderly withdraw).

I think everyone agrees as to what would happen without a policy response...  (deflation)...  the question is only when and to what extent there will be a policy response (arguing from induction, probably in the not too distant future and probably large).  However, as a default measure, deflation wins...  hopefully the bottom is somewhere better than stone tools and goat fucking...  and "making it rain" while doing so isn't my idea of better. 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 19:39 | 1976492 Strut
Strut's picture

We’ll see how long biflation lasts… The Fed didn’t need a policy change (QE3) because of the insane amount of inflationary monetary “shifting” coming into the system from the de-leveraging of USD denominated assets world-over.

In order to stop Biflation, and in turn move to inflation/deflation, you have to either 1.) stop the over-abundance of cash injected into the economy by the fed and/or USD safe-haven investments or 2.) lower unemployment and increase purchasing power (boils down to discretionary spending).  Money supply is still increasing exponentially (de-leveraging, Twist),  with Shit-Tons of money entering the system. On the other hand, we got near 11% real unemployment and real purchasing power still shrinking (food & energy included).

#2 isn’t going to happen anytime soon. #1 won’t happen as long as the rest of the world is collapsing its debt bubble. As I see it, we are stuck in Biflation until either we get a systemic collapse or we spend our way to prosperity, be it through MASSIVE infrastructure spending or WAR.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:00 | 1975671 Banksters
Banksters's picture

PRINT BITCHEZZZZ!

 

You know you want to.

 

Happy holidays, zhedgies!

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:02 | 1975683 Quinvarius
Quinvarius's picture

"We're printing gold"

And when I wear a big hat, I am the Pope.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 20:46 | 1976726 Strut
Strut's picture

We certainly are printing gold. Comex trading has suppressed real gold and silver valuations for many, many years. This "paper" gold has had the effect of flooding the market anytime real demand would otherwise strip supply. They make it near impossible for a mere mortal to take delivery of a contract for good reason. Not to mention the modern PM ETF’s only exacerbating this fact.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:03 | 1975688 Georgesblog
Georgesblog's picture

When the Euro was about to be introduced, it was supposed to be 15% backed by gold. That didn't last long. No fiat currency can be a "gold standard". I can understand the reasoning behind even considering that the Euro could be a monetary standard. In the financial environment, access to debt is the new money. It may function as a medium of exchange, but it is not in itself, wealth. Therein lies the root of the debt crisis. There is no money in it.

http://georgesblogforum.wordpress.com/2011/11/02/the-daily-climb-2/

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:12 | 1975695 Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula's picture

>chronic growth problems that a fixed currency system intensified

This makes no sense.

In the market, there is no optimum quantity of tokens of social exchange. Having a greater number of tokens of exchange is no better or worse than having a lesser number of tokens of exchange.

Therefore, how can a "fixed" currency system cause problems?

 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:28 | 1975846 halfacanuck
halfacanuck's picture

The same way the euro caused problems: by allowing huge trade imbalances to develop. In a floating rate system the currencies adjust in value relative to each other before really serious trade imbalances can occur (manipulation notwithstanding). If Germany and Greece were on their own national currencies such a one-way flow would not be possible for long because Greece would flood the market with drachmas in order to buy all those widgets, thereby devaluing its currency, thereby making imports more expensive and reducing demand.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 18:27 | 1976009 Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula's picture

I'm not so good at economics. What is a trade imbalance?

For example, suppose I go to Safeway to buy a loaf of bread. I give up $5 because I value the loaf of bread I'm getting more than I value the $5. Meanwhile, the clerk values the $5 she gets more than she values the loaf of bread she gives up.

Would this trade be balanced, or imbalanced? What is the magnitude of the imbalance?

If there's an imbalance, then I may have a "huge trade imbalance" built up with Safeway, since I go there and do this kind of thing frequently.

A "huge trade imbalance" sounds like a scary problem. Is there a way I can avoid it?

Would a possible solution to this "trade imbalance" problem be to start bringing lamps or chairs other household items into Safeway and attempt to sell them? Or should I invent my own "household bucks" system to allow a floating exchange rate with "Safeway bucks"? What's the best solution to this problem?

>If Germany and Greece were on their own national currencies such a one-way flow would not be possible for long because Greece would flood the market with drachmas in order to buy all those widgets, thereby devaluing its currency

Wouldn't Euros also work? Because a one-way flow could not continue forever - surely Greece would eventually run out of Euros. It's almost like how I run out of money if I spend it on loads of groceries at Safeway. Or, maybe Greece gets more Euros from a different source. Kind of like how I get paid and then buy yet more groceries from Safeway.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:07 | 1975702 johny2
johny2's picture

In other words, after defaulting sooner ( through devaluation ), economies recovered faster. However, comparing economy of 1930 to the economy of 2010 is complicated, as things have changed a lot. The PM are a good thing to have, but Gold standard alone could not fix the problems we are facing. And when I imagine all the resources that would be spent just digging out the gold, it makes me doubt if Gold standard would be the best thing anyway. I guess the best way would be if the markets were free of manipulations and fixes, which is very unlikely to happen.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:25 | 1975825 Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula's picture

>Gold standard alone could not fix the problems we are facing.

I was hoping it would cure my hangnail.

>And when I imagine all the resources that would be spent just digging out the gold, it makes me doubt if Gold standard would be the best thing anyway.

I feel the same way when I imagine all the resources that go into manufacturing beer and liquor. I guess Sharia law is the best way.

 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:42 | 1975941 johny2
johny2's picture

so you have hangnail and don't consume beer and liquor. Thanks for sharing.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 18:21 | 1976168 Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula's picture

Thanks. That's precisely what I meant to convey.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 18:40 | 1976292 johny2
johny2's picture

glad to be of help.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:07 | 1975703 butchee
butchee's picture

This is the Greek tragedy of common currencies now:  No one will want a gold standard and no one will want floating fiat.  Scylla and Charybdis indeed!  But maybe more like a very confused Oedipus, who doesn't know whether to shit or go blind, and instead does both.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:09 | 1975708 punxsutawney phil
punxsutawney phil's picture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

Just as FDR did in 1933 to clean out the deficit, the western economies could confiscate gold again.  They would need to get the price way down first before they announce the forced buyout. 

The rational applied then applies now (in their eyes):  The order was rationalized on the grounds that hard times had caused "hoarding" of gold, stalling economic growth and making the depression worse.[1] The New York Times, on April 6, 1933 p. 16, wrote under the headline "Hoarding of Gold".  

 

It's happened before.  Why not do it again. 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:13 | 1975737 jomama
jomama's picture

because they only recovered what?  12% of the gold from the public?  if that?

these days we live in an information age? which is bad in a sense that there is most likely an information trail to your stash out there.  good in the sense that you can get creative as to how to hide it.  and to see it coming.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:27 | 1975836 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

information age?

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:37 | 1975887 Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula's picture

>The order was rationalized on the grounds that hard times had caused "hoarding" of gold

They should shut the FED down on the grounds that they are jealously hoarding econometricists and numerologists. Imagine the utopia that would result if these geniuses could leave their ivory tower and contribute to the private sector like everyone else.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 18:52 | 1976349 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture

 

 

The order was rationalized on the grounds that hard times had caused "hoarding" of gold, stalling economic growth and making the depression worse.

Of course it was a bold-face lie.  

They confiscated gold because they were about to devalue the dollar 75% (from $20 per ounce to $35 per ounce).

 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 21:38 | 1976876 MrSteve
MrSteve's picture

Actually, the gold was nationalized by FDR, centrally held for the common good. Curency was then issued, "backed by gold"; doesn't that make the devaluation more ennobling, more enriching of the spirit of the American patriot?

Next time, not so likely to be fooled again!

P.S. Gov't metal detectors are 30" in diameter and read 10' beneath the ground. Where will you hide your gold so they don't find it? Think about this.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:20 | 1975787 New American Re...
New American Revolution's picture

Dear Tyler,

    In the 1930's, it was the phony gold standard that failed.   You're calling it a gold standard, and by a perversion, I guess it is, but it is important to separate it from a "classical gold standard", which it was not in the 1930's.   There is a huge difference between the two, and while the one (phony) is not much difference than fractal banking and susceptible to the currency debacle of 1932 in Europe, a classical gold standard is inherently stable, and would have resulted in no currency failure in 1932 Europe had it been in place, instead of the phony pound sterling gold standard: which incidentally, only survived as long as it did because our Federal Reserve Bank backed it with hundreds of millions of dollars in loans, as well as back-stopping the gold drains of primarily France, but also Germany and a few others.

   The fact is Tyler, without the help of our Federal Reserve, England never could have launched its phony pound sterling gold standard.   In fact, the only reason it was even done, was to allow JP Morgan to corner nearly all financial transactions in and out of Europe, which along with the US market, gave them a lip lock that would not come undone until FDR.   To rebound, they had to threaten a coup d'etat against FDR with a bunch of Bonesmen.   And the only reason FDR let them off the hook when their coup failed, was that he needed them to offset the Texas 8F Group which had just told him to go to hell over the east Texas oil fields.

   If you're going to explore history, you need to be specific, lest you fall into that historical scholarly set lead by Art "don't bother me with the facts" Cashin.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:25 | 1975820 jomama
jomama's picture

gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that statement was made tongue-in-cheek.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 18:11 | 1976128 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

The British Empire had adequate supplies of Gold - South Africa, Australia.....what problem it faced was War Debt and 40% Government Spending being Interest Payments ( as the US will find going forward). France and Russia had received US loans through London but had declined to repay them. Pushing Sterling back to $4.8675 was beneficial to The City but not to Exporters especially against a Germany with a weak Reichsmark. The Banking Collapse was the key strain on London - Kreditanstalt having lost a fortune on bear speculation against the French Franc in 1924 - this brought down German banks especially Danat with problem industrial loans and then rippled through to England.

So you cannot disengage Gold from the War Debt and general postwar instability. Maybe that is what Tyler means ? You cannot have a fixed currency system under conditions of Excessive Debt and Speculation......that really Quantitative Controls on Bank Lending were necessary to prevent Banks exploiting floating exchange rates to boost credit without limit, and that really all dirty floating does is play balance sheet games until the risk becomes too high for investors.

 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:30 | 1975862 epicurious
epicurious's picture

I suggest you read James Rickards "Currency Wars" for a clearer understanding of what happened in the 1930's.

England by getting off the Gold standard first was able to "beggar their neighbors first" as a result France for example being still tied until 1936 when they devalued.  So it wasn't the gold standard it was the resulting global commodity inflation resulting from the beggar thy neighbor policy.  It was a fault of policy not gold.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:34 | 1975891 Ted Baker
Ted Baker's picture

THIS IS MARKET MANIPULATION AND LIQUIDATION BEFORE THE UPCOMING BANKING CRISIS (EVEN TO BE CONSIDERED A HEALTHY CORRECTION) AND NOT BASED ON FUNDAMENTALS - HAS ANYONE HEARD OF CENTRAL BANKS SELLING GOLD? THEY ARE THE LARGEST SHAREHOLDERS OF GOLD NOT THE CROOKS LIKE GARTMAN, HEDGE FUNDS AND BANKERS FROM WALL STREET. IT IS NOT IN THE INTERESTED OF CENTRAL BANKS THESE DAYS TO SELL GOLD BUT RATHER TO HOLD DOWN TO IT...

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:34 | 1975892 Ted Baker
Ted Baker's picture

THIS IS MARKET MANIPULATION AND LIQUIDATION BEFORE THE UPCOMING BANKING CRISIS (EVEN TO BE CONSIDERED A HEALTHY CORRECTION) AND NOT BASED ON FUNDAMENTALS - HAS ANYONE HEARD OF CENTRAL BANKS SELLING GOLD? THEY ARE THE LARGEST SHAREHOLDERS OF GOLD NOT THE CROOKS LIKE GARTMAN, HEDGE FUNDS AND BANKERS FROM WALL STREET. IT IS NOT IN THE INTERESTED OF CENTRAL BANKS THESE DAYS TO SELL GOLD BUT RATHER TO HOLD DOWN TO IT...

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:34 | 1975895 jimmyjames
jimmyjames's picture

The 1930s in Europe was a slow moving game of falling dominoes with countries one by one leaving the narrow confines of the Gold Standard after chronic growth problems that a fixed currency system intensified.

*************

This report is flawed from the start-

There was no gold standard in the 30's and hadn't been since April 1922-

It was the double counting of gold from the world bankers agreement at the Genoa convention to try and thwart the "needed" deflation that gold brought on from being stupid enough to engage in a foreign war that led to the inflationary boom of the 20's and the bust of the 30's-

http://www.cepr.org/meets/wkcn/1/1671/papers/The_Genoa_Conference_finale...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dow_1918-1922.jpg

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 19:26 | 1976457 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

By your logic the Gold Standard collapsed in August 1914

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 19:52 | 1976534 jimmyjames
jimmyjames's picture

By your logic the Gold Standard collapsed in August 1914

*******

It didn't collapse in 1914 but in a sense you are correct-it was "shelved" in 1914 in order to freely print for war costs-but a promise was made to the people that they would re-instate gold standard when the war was over and that did happen-the problem was-that it threw the countries into deflation as actual gold was being shipped out for payments-

That was the reason that gold weighting to the dollar was decreased by 100% by agreeing to double count reserves-the paper certificates already in existence and actual gold reserves were counted "as actual gold"

This was the first "paper gold" the birth of the paper derivative-

Not that i like using prices for a deflation gauge-but look at the CPI post 1922 and you can see the massive crash and then the rocket launch upward as the money supply doubled by the stroke of a pen-

http://bit.ly/rDlHr0

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 20:43 | 1976713 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Yes, but for the amount of money, i.e. gold  that had to be borrowed to fund the war, it was a no go. A gold standard works if everyone has a little gold, after the war, that was hardly the case.

As for deflation, don't underestimate the affect on aggregate demand that the Influenza epidemic had... 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 20:53 | 1976748 jimmyjames
jimmyjames's picture

A gold standard works if everyone has a little gold, after the war, that was hardly the case.

***********

Under a gold standard-everyone does have gold-

You got paid in gold and you spent and saved in gold-people didn't carry around gold as such because the cerificate (USD) was reddemable in gold and was only a convienient proxy to carry the gold-

*****************

As for deflation, don't underestimate the affect on aggregate demand that the Influenza epidemic had..

******

I'm sure it did have an effect but how do you explain the violent explosion in inflation in 1922 right after the deflation?

 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 22:11 | 1977003 MrSteve
MrSteve's picture

Inflation is inflation, with or without a gold standard. When the Spaniards brought back all the gold of the Incas, Tolmecs, Aztecs, etc from the New World, they only stoked the fire of inflation brewing in europe since the end of the Black Death in the 1300-1400's.

The inflation in Spain from that time has still infected the national character and Spain has never recovered from it, per some historian's perspective.

Check out The Great Wave by Fischer for long term, documented, factual trends in inflation. Very sobering for the future of our currency printing empires.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 22:42 | 1977092 jimmyjames
jimmyjames's picture

Inflation is inflation, with or without a gold standard.

********

Very true and there was abnormal inflation under gold standard-for eg: the California and Klondike gold rushes but they were an anomaly-

Gold standard was very simple in practice and was self correcting as it hinged on trade balance-

As a country became more productive-more gold flowed into the country (inflation) as the trade balance went positive-

When this happened wages increased and prices rose to a point where exports became too expensive and foreign buyers looked elsewhere for products and the trade balance shifted negative and eventually more gold was flowing out of the country than in (deflation) and this lead to wages decreasing and goods and services dropped in price and this would bring back foreign buyers again and the trade balance would again shift positive and inflation would overtake deflation-

The process was gradual and allowed people to adjust-unlike the boom bust scenarios we've seen with the Fed trying to be "the market" by jacking around interest rates-

The deflationary period (higher unemployment) was compensated for by decreasing prices ie: increased buying power-

Gold standard was not perfect-nothing is-but i believe it was much better for average people than anything we've had since-

 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:38 | 1975918 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Every time the EUro falls and USD becomes safe haven, WS falls. The phony ponzi paradigm is lose-lose all the way.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:41 | 1975932 Big Ben
Big Ben's picture

The current euro crisis does seem similar to the situation in the late 20's/early 30's. England, France, and Germany had all run up huge debts during WW!. They suspended the gold standard during the war and printed a lot of currency to finance the war. A critical mistake was that England tried to revert to the gold standard after the war, at the previous exchange rate. This meant that they had far too little gold to back all the currency that they had printed during the war, and they were eventually forced to devalue.

Of course by devaluing their currencies, they were effectively defaulting on war debts owed to the US. So in general, devaluation helped their economies at the expense of the US.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 18:05 | 1976090 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture

 

 

Without even reading the article let me guess:  Euro bankers bitching because ECB won't turn on the presses and print boatloads of Euros to bail them out and keep their sovereign debt ponzi scheme going.

How close am I?

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 18:13 | 1976117 Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula's picture

Pretty close. The cruel, backward misers at the ECB won't print buttloads of money, so it's practically the same as if the poor bankers were forced to cobble together lumps of gold.

If I were in charge I would print everyone $1,000,000 dollars and give everyone a Get Out of Fail Free card.

 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 18:48 | 1976334 scratch_en_sniff
scratch_en_sniff's picture

Here's the minutes of a very special set of Chatham House meetings, the steering committee was set up in the 1930's and was successful in swaying the British gov away from the gold standard...one of the meetings was chaired by none other than a Mr J.M.Keynes. The arguments are made in a language of that time, so its excellent bedtime reading as it tends to put you to sleep after a while. But still, its a juicy bit of history, for all you history buffs. 

http://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/default/files/1929gold_collectedpapers...

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 19:02 | 1976339 Quinvarius
Quinvarius's picture

It is kind of funny how there is always some problem with the money whenever a banker can't pay his debts.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 19:01 | 1976385 Black Forest
Black Forest's picture

"Is The Euro Today The Gold Standard Of The 1930s For EU Economies?"

Excellent question. I hope we will be punished for owning EUR soon.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 20:26 | 1976651 MFL8240
MFL8240's picture

Gold is the answer but, the Jewish banking cartel will kill Ron Paul rather than lose their ability to steal from the US Taxpayers.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 21:35 | 1976862 cocoablini
cocoablini's picture

So solution is confiscate via reverse repo And then devalue currency by Just reverse splitting the stock. Whoops did I say that?

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 21:54 | 1976943 proLiberty
proLiberty's picture

These data are often used in an attempt to prove that hard money is a bad thing.  It is conveniently omitted that China was also a nation that avoided much of a decline in this period but was on a silver standard.   There were other factors at work that must be accounted for but there has been little academic or historical interest in showing how wrong the Received Narrative is.

 

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 23:54 | 1977343 CrisisMaven
CrisisMaven's picture

In my humble opinion the argument overlooks the fact that all these countries were forced of the gold standard because they more and more had relied on fractional reserve banking and thus had eventually to devaluate by about as much as the difference between their obligations in paper and their real stock in gold. So if that is what made them recover it's about the same mechanism that makes a person feel more sober after vomiting if having a bit too much of intoxicating liquor. So then, Deutsche Bank, tell us what that now means for the Euro comparison?

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 10:25 | 1978338 GoldBricker
GoldBricker's picture

The US bubble of the 1920s didn't help matters, but the problem in Europe was that the Great Powers fought a huge war by borrowing and could not maintain their currencies at the old gold rates. This not to mention the enormous productive capacity (especially human) that was destroyed. WWI was (in George Kennan's words) "the seminal disaster of the 20th century" out of which all the others flowed.

Britain could have devalued the pound (the way that the US eventually would) in the 1920s and likely made it through.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!